1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,559 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show of Reduction of shondaland 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. We know the 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: painful history of black men and law enforcement and black 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: men being falsely accused, mostly by white women mostly right. 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: That is a truth that were nobody's trying to ignore 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: that or erase it. What actually gets a race is 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: that we focus on that conversation and we don't focus 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: on the sexual violences weaponis against black women too. Hello everyone, 9 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. 10 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: It's been more than three years since hashtag me too 11 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: went viral and the country experienced the reckoning around sexual 12 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: harassment and violence we had never seen before. It was 13 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: my hope that many necessary conversations would finally happen around 14 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: consent and what envisioning a world without sexual violence might 15 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: look like, and the systemic change that can make that 16 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: vision a reality. Those conversations certainly have been happening, but 17 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: I feel like they've often been drowned out by the 18 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: backlash by narratives that have sought to make the me 19 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: too movement about something it's not. I'm interested in shifting 20 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: the conversation back to the original intent of the Me 21 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: Too movement, envisioned by its founder, Toronto Burke. Toronto Burke 22 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: has been an activist and advocate for survivors of sexual 23 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: violence for almost thirty years. Her work also encompasses racial justice, 24 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: anti violence, and gender equity. She's the founder of the 25 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: Me Too movement, which she originated in two thousand six 26 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: but it went violent two thousand seventeen, which to date 27 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: has galvanized millions of survivors and allies around the world. 28 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: She is the founder of Just Being, Inc. And co 29 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: editor of the new book with Renee Brown, You Are 30 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: Your Best Thing. Please enjoy my conversation with Toronto j Burke. 31 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: Hello to Ranna, and welcome to the podcast. How are 32 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: you feeling today? Oh today, I'm so glad you said 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: today Today I'm okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah, today I'm okay. 34 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: Have things not been okay? Oh god, It's been such 35 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: an up and down just time period. So yeah, I've 36 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: been like I just had a whole bunch of different 37 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,399 Speaker 1: things happening. So but I'm okay now. So how beautiful 38 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: it is that today, in this moment, you are okay. 39 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: I love that because all we have is this moment. 40 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: Can't I tell you. When I was preparing for this, 41 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: I discovered that you went to Alabama State University. My 42 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: mother went to Alabama State University. How did you end 43 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: up at Albama State University because you were born in 44 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: the Bronx. Yeah. I was a part of a youth 45 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: leadership program called Century Youth Leadership Movement that was founded 46 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: civil Rights and you know, veterans of the movement, and 47 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: they were based in Selma. And I was in that 48 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: program through most of high school. And when I graduated 49 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: high school, I got into the schools I wanted to 50 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: get into. I wanted to go to Clark Atlanta University, 51 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: and I didn't have the money. And so the woman 52 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,119 Speaker 1: who founded the organization, she was like, let me help 53 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: you get into another school, and she got me into 54 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,839 Speaker 1: alban State. And I had never even thought about it. 55 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: But I'm glad I went. I'm so glad I had 56 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: I had both an HBCU and a p W I experience. 57 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: I love it, I love it. I love it so. 58 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: But I was preparing for this, there were so many 59 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: moments watching interviews, listing to podcast, watching speeches where I 60 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: would just become overcome with emotion to start crying, and 61 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: there's just a lot of that, and in a good way, 62 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: in a good way. But just in thinking about the 63 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: Me Too movement, you we all know that you're the 64 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: founder of the Me Too movement and the no mission 65 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: of me Too was empowerment through empathy. And I was 66 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: thinking about today and having this conversation with you. I 67 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: literally lit a candle. This is the first time with 68 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: lit a candle for a podcast, because it absorbing your 69 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: work and the impact that you've had. As I prepare 70 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: for this, I wanted to try to create a sacred 71 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: space for this conversation. I think there is a sacredness 72 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: in me Too, because there's a sacredness and empathy. There's 73 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: a sacredness in the space that you have created for 74 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: so many survivors. And and the real reason I wanted 75 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: to have this conversation with you, there's so many of 76 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: the I'm gonna talk to you about, but I think 77 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: that we've gotten derailed, your original intent has gotten lost, 78 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: and how people want to frame it for their own 79 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: sort of political ends, and just people being um confused 80 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: about what it's about. And then it's so difficult to 81 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: hold the space for the trauma, right, the trauma that 82 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: is at the heart of sexual assault and and a 83 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: survivor of that. So I guess I want to start 84 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: with you where are you today? With the founding of 85 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: the mew Too movie. Yeah, well after the Kavanaugh hearings 86 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: in eighteen. They came right at about a year after 87 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: Me Too went viral. So I spent that year. I 88 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: had this tumultuous yet it was crazy good but also 89 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: crazy strength, right, and I felt very much like so 90 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: much good stuff had happened. And yes, people knew who 91 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,559 Speaker 1: I was, but they didn't really know my work because 92 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: I had been kind of pulling all these different directions 93 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: to represent this or that for other people, and I 94 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: had to take a step back from I'm going to 95 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: be like, you know, I have a very clear vision 96 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: about what my offering was in the work to in 97 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: sexual violence. And that's why I started the organization, which 98 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: I actually never thought I would. I didn't want to 99 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: start another nonprofit and like, there's the world in another nonprofit, 100 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: but I thought it was really important to create a 101 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: container for the for the work to happen in and 102 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: so I I'm so glad I did that, and I'm really, 103 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: really proud of how we have been reclaiming for the 104 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: last two or three years. Right, it's just been constant work. 105 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: But we have great things happening Survivor Summer, me too, 106 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: voter and all this other stuff. We're still working up 107 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: against this mainstream narrative of what need too is. And 108 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: so the first thing that people should think of when 109 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: they hear the words me too is about the people 110 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: who actually said it, right, the people who are using 111 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: that phrase to identify as a part of this larger group. 112 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: We should not automatically think about a headline about Hollywood 113 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: about perpetrators. We should think about the human beings whose 114 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: lives have been adversely affected by this these traumatic experiences, 115 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: and that that's our goal to shift the narrative so 116 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: that me too is synonymous with survivors and the empathy 117 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: that is inherent in me too. Write absolutely, what's so 118 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: exciting for me about me too? It is just as afraid. 119 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: It's like I'm not alone, You're not alone. We can 120 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: be in community healing, and that healing space, that empathic space, 121 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: is what we need in the world right now. And 122 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: exactly the fact that we can't that that's been co 123 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: opted and corrupted speaks, I think to our inability to 124 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: sit in the uncomfortability and the vulnerability of what is 125 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: required to really be empathetic. That's right. The original intent 126 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: is still intact, and the work we're joined with survivors 127 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: on the ground in coalition with other organizations. It's very 128 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: much true to that. But as long as the mainstream 129 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: narrative is like who's next, and you know, who got 130 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: me too? To that kind of thing, it will still 131 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: have the same issues that we have around backlash and 132 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: around people understand misunderstanding. And that's harder, right, that's much harder. 133 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: That's like breaking into Hollywood. That's like getting in writer's 134 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: rooms and getting mainstream media too to adjust the way 135 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: they talk and think about us as survivors um but 136 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: also us meaning black women, and us meaning like all 137 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: kinds of us. Is that they don't think about when 138 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: they talk with this work. What is so beautiful about 139 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: the founding of Me Too is that it started with 140 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: centering the lived experiences of black and brown girls in Alabama, 141 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: some of the folks who were most marginalized with with 142 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: sexual assault, but in all aspects of society, and so 143 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: much of the narratives always wants to sort of focus 144 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: on the perpetrators and how their lives are being sort 145 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: of ruined, or the due process questions. And what I 146 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: got excited about when me Too went viral was that 147 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, we can, maybe we can finally 148 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: have a conversation about what consent looks like. I think 149 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: a lot of men, specifically and potential perpetrators are real confused. 150 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: Remember years ago, I had read an article on the 151 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: good Man Project and a guy had written about basically 152 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: how he had assaulted this woman and realized after the 153 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: fact and like he fled the city. But he talked 154 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: about all the sort of conflicting messages that he had 155 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: gone from the media, all of around no meaning yes, 156 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: and like us needing to have a conversation around And 157 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god. People don't always understand 158 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: that they have not consented. I recently had the opportunity 159 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 1: to confront a man who had basically sexually assaulted me 160 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: too about thirteen years ago, and he it was really difficult, conversations, 161 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: really painful, and he didn't realize in that moment that 162 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: he had sexually assaulted me and the night had stayed 163 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: with him. We hadn't talked about this and we kind 164 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: of stayed friends afterwards, which is interesting and deep and 165 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: whatever happens all the time, just you know, peripheral friends. 166 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: But we never dated after that. And what was interesting 167 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: for me is that that night's day with me, you know, 168 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: till this day in its day with him as well, 169 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: because up until that point, and this is about two 170 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: thousand nine or so, he had been dating trans women 171 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: since the nineties and non trans women as well, and 172 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: he had never been turned down before. He had never 173 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: had someone stop a sexual encount and be like, wait, wait, 174 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: hold on, whoa you know that it never happened to him. 175 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: And I don't want to make this about perpetrators, but 176 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: it's like, if we really are serious, it's about ending 177 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: rape culture, ending sexual assault. We have to have conversations 178 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: about what consent looks like, and we have to be 179 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: able to create space. We have to have them early, 180 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: and we have to have them early. This is a 181 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: good time to take a little break. We'll be right 182 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: back though. Okay, that's taken care of. Let's get back 183 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 1: to our chat. I love that you always talk about 184 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: ending sexual assault, right and ending a culture of a 185 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: sexual assaulty, what is your vision for this. So I think, 186 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: you know, I always use this comparison, um, but I 187 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: talk about cigarettes and how you know, twenty thirty years ago, 188 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: we smoked cigarettes everywhere, and they smoked cigarettes on planes 189 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: and in schools and you know, in bars, whatever. And 190 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: then we had this onslaught of interventions. We had sort 191 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: of research and medical interventions that said secondhand smoke will 192 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: kill you. And people said, oh, well, you can't smoke 193 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: in a car, and you can't smoke in the house 194 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: with your children and your loved ones. Right, because this 195 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: research shows that. We had grassroots campaigns that came out 196 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: telling the truth about big tobacco and exposing them. We 197 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: had media interventions where we stopped seeing people smoking cigarettes, 198 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: and TV shows and movies and things like that. We 199 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: had legal interventions where big tobacco was sued by certain 200 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: you know, different entities. What happened. I think of that as, 201 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: you know, loosely a model for what has to happen 202 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: for us to be working towards ending sexual bodes. Now, 203 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: of course people still smoke, right, that's not It hasn't 204 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: ended smoking. But that also wasn't the goal. It was 205 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: to make sure people are knowledgeable about it. If we 206 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: don't have multiple interventions, multiple visions, right for a plan 207 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: that is working towards interrupting and eventually ending sexual violence, 208 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: we won't get there. And so I feel like we 209 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: need the same level. We need research about how sexual 210 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: violence impacts the economy, how it impacts the workforce, how 211 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: it impacts communities and cultures, and we need that information 212 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: disaggregated by race, by age, by gender, by all of 213 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: these different stuff so we really understand the scope of 214 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: the problem. It's huge. It's a huge problem. That's research. 215 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 1: We certainly need changes in these laws and policies that 216 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: are just woefully inadequate, right, and also things like even 217 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: vow which is which has been around for a long 218 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: time to violence against women, has all kind of flaws 219 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: in it. If there's a there's a push to this 220 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: country towards transformative justice or restorative justice or different right, 221 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: something different than a Carcero solution, if that's really the 222 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: direction we're heading in, then we need to start imagining 223 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: and implementing what that looks like now, which means that 224 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: we can create systems of transformative justice in our communities 225 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: and our institutions that can be replicated. But Essentially, the 226 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: vision is that people have to get active on all fronts. 227 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: We need narrative intervention. It's not really about policing sexuality 228 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: or censoring, but we don't need egregious sexual violence on television. Right, 229 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 1: And if you are using it to make a point 230 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: or statement about sexual violence, I think there's some space 231 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: for it. But we do need to be more vigilant 232 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: and conscious about the ways we show rape culture and 233 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: sexual violence portrayed in our mainstream media. So the vision 234 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: I have is to work in tandem with other people 235 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: in the field to create those interventions. And part of 236 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: what we're doing, you know, we have act to this 237 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: this new platform that we introduced last year that's really 238 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: to activate everyday people. Right. So it's such a huge 239 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,239 Speaker 1: problem that it's no way that it can be tackled 240 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: without shifting the consciousness of everyday people to think, I 241 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: need to do something about this, right, I need to 242 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: be involved. We things like comprehensive sex education. Talking to 243 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: your point about consent, What would the world look like 244 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: if you take a group of kindergarten students right now 245 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: and you give them comprehensive sex education that covers the 246 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: spectrum right every year and layer it on and and 247 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: and and advance it every year so it's you know, 248 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: relevant to their age, and not just introduce consent in 249 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: tenth grade or in twelfth grade and then send these 250 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: kids off the college after watching a video on the 251 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: computer that says no means no and dotat. It's just 252 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: it's just, honestly, it's just not enough. It is it's outsized, 253 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: and it's not enough happening to match the magnitude of 254 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: the problem. And so I just I feel like I 255 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: have to keep ringing the alarm, and the work that 256 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: we do has to keep building coalition across the field. 257 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: Because I do think definitely with with giving all kinds 258 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: of praise and flowers to the work that's happened on 259 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: the ground around sexual violence, I do think there's a 260 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: way that some of the big national organizations got really complacent. 261 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: You know, think about when me Too first went viral. 262 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: There was no immediate response. There's no rapper response from philanthropy, 263 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: there was no rapper response from from big mainstream organizations. No, 264 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: so many people were used to not talking about it 265 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: and not having like a national sustained dialogue. Yeah, that's 266 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: really important, But I but I but it's just so. 267 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many things I think about and 268 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: want to talk about, but I but when I do 269 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: the deep dive into your work, love and empathy or 270 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: at the center, and what feels so beautiful is how 271 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: there's space created it through me too. There's space created 272 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: through empathy because I hear all the solutions you talk 273 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: about it and just like we can't even get fifteen 274 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: dollar minimum wage. They just read an article about like 275 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: the Secretary of Education I think in New York City 276 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: just stepped down and he was trying to desegregate schools 277 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: in New York and it couldn't get done. And it's 278 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: there's so much bureaucracy, there's so much corruption in this 279 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: system that keeps things from getting done. And I think 280 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: about how much we are not moving in that space 281 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: of love and empathy, that people in power are so 282 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: committed to maintaining that power that they used the divide 283 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: and conquered. Because I was thinking. Another thing that's come 284 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: up a lot recently that you've talked about publicly is 285 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: how me too is being framed a lot in the 286 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: black community is like an attack on black men. Right. 287 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, yes, I think immediately. This is exactly how 288 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: divide and conquered works, right. Let's pit the interest of 289 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: black men against those of survivors of sexual assault and 290 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: create this narrative where like black men are being persecuted, 291 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: which then again erases the voices of survivors racists, like 292 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: the voices and experiences of black women and girls. We 293 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: can't hold two truths at the same time, and they 294 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: are multiple truths actually, when it comes to sexual violence 295 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: in the black community. We announced our campaign called We 296 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: as Ourselves. It's a collaboration with Times UP and the 297 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: National Women's Lost Center, and it really is a campaign 298 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: that's been a year in the making about centering black survivors. 299 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: And it came on the heels of the backlash of 300 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: the Russell Simmons documentary, the r. Kelly documentary, um Gail King, 301 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: backlash after Kobe Bryant, Like all of these things compounded. 302 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: It was like, why are black women always trashed in 303 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: the media when they come forward? You know, It's just 304 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: like we need to say something to be really specific, 305 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: So we put it up. It is no names involved. 306 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: We don't name any perpetrators, we don't even name any survivors. 307 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: We literally just say black survivors, not black women. You know, 308 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: it's like it's like all black survivors. And the amount 309 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: of trolling that has hit my page and me to 310 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: his page, it's always what about? What about? What about? Right? 311 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: And it's all these black men saying, oh, you hate 312 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: black men. We know the white women in Hollywood have 313 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 1: stolen your movement and they use you as a puppet, 314 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: And I'm just like, are you all insane? These are 315 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: the same people who would not stand up for those 316 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: black women survivors when they came forward. So it's it's 317 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: so frustrating for me because this should be a moment 318 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: for the black community to come together and say I 319 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: don't care what you look like, I don't care how 320 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: you identify. We will not accept this kind of violence 321 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: in our community against anybody. But instead, to your point, 322 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: it has become a moment of divide and conquer. It 323 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: is absolutely true, and I've said this three hundred thousand 324 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: times that sexual violence has been weaponized against black men. 325 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: We have a whole history of it that you can't deny, 326 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: and it's a painful history. We will never forget Emmetti, 327 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: and you can you can bring it from Emmette all 328 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: the way up to Brian Banks. Right, and I was 329 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: reading the story of the man in Boston who claimed 330 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: that his wife had been murdered by black man, and 331 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: he actually was the murderer, and they had lockdown Boston 332 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: searching for this black man. We know the painful history 333 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: of black men in law enforcement and black men being 334 00:18:54,720 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: falsely accused, mostly by white women mostly, right, That is 335 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,239 Speaker 1: the truth that we do. Nobody's trying to ignore that 336 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 1: or erase it. What actually gets a raised is that 337 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: we focus on that conversation and we don't focus on 338 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: the sexual violences weaponis against black women too. We were enslaved, 339 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: and and sexual violence was used as a weapon of 340 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: torture for us during enslavement, right and and and black 341 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: women have had to deal with sexual violence at the 342 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: hands of white men, and we've had to deal with 343 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: sexual violence at the hands of our own men. There's 344 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: no way that we would have the second highest rate 345 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: of sexual violence experiences in this country behind indigenous women 346 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: if that weren't true. It doesn't say anything particular about 347 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: black men, but it creates this complicated conversation because oh, no, 348 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: we're not rapists. No, all black men are not rapists obviously, right, No, 349 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: you're not. But do black women get raped? Absolutely? Does 350 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: it happen at the hands of white men absolutely? Does 351 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: it also happen in the hands of black men. Absolutely, 352 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: So that at all this truth is out on the 353 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: table with love and empathy and compassion, we should be 354 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: able to close the curtain and say, yeah, we gotta 355 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 1: have a conversation about this. I think part of what 356 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: what the difficulty is for our community when I say 357 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: our community, I say black folks, is that when somebody 358 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: black does something, then it becomes a reflection of all 359 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: black people because of how white supremacy works the whole 360 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: community exactly, and when a white man does something, it 361 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: does not become a reflection of all white men. So 362 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: I think that we have to again, we have to 363 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: we have different kind of conversations in the media, and 364 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: it needs to be more nuanced. But I also think 365 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: about my friend A Lok who I had on the podcast. 366 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 1: We had a conversation a year ago in a look 367 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: said in that conversation, some people are not looking for justice. 368 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: I think they're looking for privilege. Yes, indeed, And I 369 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: feel like, what right, that's a word? What I field 370 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: is having grown up in the black church in Alabama, 371 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 1: is that there was such desire I think for some 372 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: black folks to have privilege, but in ways that replicate patriarchy. 373 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: There's so many, you know, incredible black women who have 374 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: been challenging patriarchy since the beginning, right, and who've been 375 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: intersectional and amazing. And there are some Black women who 376 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: are very interested and invested in patriarchy in a way 377 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: that elevates their life exactly, that elevates their particular life 378 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: and the life of their particular crowd. I mean, we 379 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: know that happens in our community without question. We were 380 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: socialized in patriarchy and white supremacy. It's the only model 381 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: we have for what power looks like, right, and we 382 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: are a community that's constantly having our power taken away 383 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: from us or attempts at power taken away from us. 384 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: Power is equated to money and wealth and and you know, 385 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: education in all these different ways that we have less 386 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: than in the community. So absolutely, that is a word. 387 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: They're not looking for justice, they're looking for privilege. But 388 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: I mean, this is the thing. When I'm hearing this, 389 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: like what about white men, I'm like, what about white men? 390 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: This is something that's really interesting to me. The reality 391 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: of the me too movement hashtag me too is that 392 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: it took a swath of white men down right. The 393 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: names that you hear associated is our folks weren't paying 394 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: attention because it weren't us. So who cares about a 395 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: Harvey Wantstein or Charlie Rose and you know whatever. But 396 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: this is a list of the New York Times put 397 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: out once and it's probably should be updated by now, 398 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: but maybe or nineteen of like four hundred men who 399 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: have been affected by me too. I went through that 400 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: list painstaking me. I can only find nineteen people of color. 401 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: Of those people of color, like six of them were 402 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: black men. So this as a as a thing in 403 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: the world, This is not something that has adversely affected 404 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: our community. Nobody is painting black men as the face 405 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: of me too. You got r Kelly, you got Russell Simmons, 406 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 1: you got Bill Cosby. Those are the three names of 407 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: black men that are most associated with sexual violence and 408 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: definitely not representative of the average black man. So this 409 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: this kind of this kind of notion that you want 410 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: to take down black men, and it's just it's nonsense, 411 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: and it's it's from a place of a lot of things. 412 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: I think a paranoia, I think triggering around the history 413 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: of sexual violence. But I also think, to your friend's point, 414 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: beyond the not wanting justice and wanting privilege, it is 415 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: a part of an ongoing history that also includes not 416 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 1: protecting black women, not standing up for black women, right, 417 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: and when black women stand up for themselves, finding ways 418 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: to knock us down. That's just happened. That's just true. 419 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: And and the black women who have been standing up 420 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: for black men, how about that? Yes, absolutely, And so 421 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: many black women who don't come forward because they don't 422 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: want to have another black man in the criminal justice system, 423 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,239 Speaker 1: And so in the space of the healing that we 424 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: might need is subjugated to someone else. And so, gosh, 425 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: there's so much you want to talk to you about. 426 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: Now feels like a great time for a short right, 427 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: we'll be right back then. Okay, we're back. You are 428 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: at the editor of the forthcoming book with Burnee Brown. 429 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: Can you tell us the title of that book? That book, 430 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: as you know, because you're one of our contributors, is 431 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: called You Are Your Best Thing, And it's based on 432 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: a quote from Tony Morrison's book Beloved and I'm just 433 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: I'm so excited about it. I am so grateful that 434 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: you contributed to it. I really am, because you know, 435 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: Brnee and I became fast friends when we met some 436 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: years ago and and have had this you know, ongoing 437 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: conversation and relationship because of the ways that our work overlapsed. 438 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: And I was so frustrated, quite frankly last summer after 439 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: George Floyd was murdered, because I just kept hearing all 440 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: of these conversations about how white people can be better, 441 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: how about anti racism, about all of these things that 442 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: are necessary, but also not enough conversation about the trauma 443 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: that black people were holding by watching yet another member 444 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: of our community be murdered in the street by people 445 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: who are charged with protecting our lives, supposedly right to 446 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: know that another Brianna Taylor person would be murdered with 447 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: impunity like it just the number, I mean, there's more 448 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: than the ones that were public, but even the big 449 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 1: public ones where you have the videos that are played online, 450 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: that is traumatic. When you spoke about this last year, 451 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: it hit me and this is one of the moments 452 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: that when I was preparing for this, why I just 453 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: started broke down in tears because I was just like, 454 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: these are the words that I need, because I knew 455 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: that I was traumatized. I know, I knew that there's 456 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: collector trauma around this, but I just after George Floyd 457 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: and Tony McDade happened a few days after George Floyd 458 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: that's not on video, but then a trans woman with beating, 459 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: brutally beating Ayana do your and I just hit a 460 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: point where I just too much. I can't, I can't anymore, 461 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 1: I can't read details. This is so traumatizing, and I 462 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: love that this book with Renee is sort of a 463 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: response to that. Response to that. In the intro, you say, 464 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: our humanity, our individual and collective vulnerability, needs and deserves 465 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: some breathing realm. Yes, can you talk a little bit 466 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: more about the intention of the book. Absolutely, the intention 467 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: was to create a space for black people to talk 468 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: about how this impacts us. Right. Shame is a tool 469 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: of oppression, absolutely, I I and a tool of white supremacy. 470 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: I love Renee's work, obviously, and that helped me so much, 471 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: and I also found myself contorting to fit into it 472 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: in some ways because it didn't fully reflect my experience 473 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: as a black woman in this country, and so it 474 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: felt like I wanted a space for us to talk 475 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: about how shame impacts our lives and how we're resilient 476 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: to that shame right in various ways. And also I'm 477 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: a black woman. We need to hear the voices of 478 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 1: black transfolks about black weear folks about from black men, 479 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: from black young people, black elders. Our lives deserved space 480 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: to tell our stories and to just tell our stories, 481 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: not in relation to anything else, and not in service 482 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: of making white people better. Right. But I do think, 483 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: and I said this in the introduction, this is a 484 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: precursor to your anti racist work because you have to 485 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: be able to engage with black humanity in order to 486 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: not be racist. I really believe that if you're just I. 487 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: I read the anti racist book, and I do the 488 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: anti racist data data out, but you really don't engage 489 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: with black humanity, you don't try to understand it, or 490 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: think about it, or or have a connection to how 491 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: these things actually impact our lives, then your work will 492 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: be not as useful, not to you or to anybody else. 493 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: So this is an offering, you know, Burnee and I 494 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: labeled this and call and talk about this as an 495 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: offering first and for almost to the black community, you know, 496 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: a place to see ourselves and to see some of 497 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: our stories reflected, right, but also an offering to the 498 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: world to continue to tell stories and to normalize telling 499 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: these stories. Because there's also a piece that's like black 500 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: people don't talk about this either. You know. It's also 501 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: a little piece because that my piece is about health 502 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: and illness and how you know, so many black women 503 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: just hold it and don't talk about it and just 504 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: soldier through. So there's also an internal conversation for us 505 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: to have about some of this stuff too, so so beautiful, 506 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: so necessary. Um. In the intro, you say, we often 507 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: carry our trauma in similar ways, but the roads that 508 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: lead us to the trauma are also different. We must 509 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: pay attention to that road. The road, it's our humanity. 510 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: The road is the piece that we're talking about. A 511 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: lot of times we're happy and relieved to find similarities. 512 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: Oh YouTube you to me too, No fun intended. These 513 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: experiences create community and it's wonderful, but it is still 514 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: critical to understand the different paths that led you to 515 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: the trauma. Bernathan replies, that makes so much sense. We 516 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: have to know the road if we're going to walk 517 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: back down, own it and dismantle the systems that lead 518 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: us to trauma. So knowing the road, knowing the road, 519 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: and and Brneble talks about owning the story too, and 520 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: her work over and over again that she's applied to us, 521 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: owning our history. And I love I love that you 522 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: connect so much to Burnet's work. I do as well. 523 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: And I think in the intro you also talked about vulnerability, 524 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: that the vulnerability piece was really hard for you, and 525 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: I was just like, oh, and and when you are 526 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: a trauma survivor or vulnerability is really difficult. Yeah, yeah, 527 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: And it's it's it's triggering. It's like I'm gonna die 528 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: if the sensation in our bodies is like I'm gonna die, 529 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: I'm not going to survive this if I'm vulnerable. When 530 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: you've experienced trauma, and so many black people have experienced trauma, 531 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: and vulnerability means something different to us, right to black people, 532 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: I think I think there's a there's a different connotation. 533 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: It's not just you know, I don't want to trivialize 534 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: anybody's experience with with vulnerability, but for us, it can 535 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: sometimes mean death. Right, It can mean a a kind 536 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: of danger that other people don't experience outside of our community. 537 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: So it is it is you tell me to be 538 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: vulnerable to who for what? No, no right? You have 539 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: to give me more explanation than that. Yeah, But vulnerability 540 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: is also the site of all the things that are 541 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: dear and wonderful and incredible in our lives. So we 542 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: have to be able to create the safe spaces and 543 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: we still need it. Yeah, we still need we have 544 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: to create the safe spaces so we can be vulnerable exactly. 545 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: I also think that in this moment that we have 546 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: so much to learn from survivors and survival and the 547 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: ideas of empowermental empathy, and healing. We have been traumatized 548 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: as a country, right, we have been traumatized as a world, really, 549 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: but this country has been through a grossly traumatic experience. 550 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: One of the things I've been talking about lately is 551 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: that I don't want to do any liberation work that 552 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: doesn't have a politic of grace included. We need more love, 553 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: We need more space for each other, because particularly those 554 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: who are working towards the same things, who have a 555 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: liberation ideology g and who are thinking towards being more 556 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: free in this world and having a more just world. 557 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: We definitely need to have more grace for each other. 558 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: It's not a competition. We need to be working more 559 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: in tandem, but certainly without empathy and love and some vulnerability, 560 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: we won't get there. I love it. I love it. 561 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you for that. So I like 562 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: to end the podcast with a question, and the question 563 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: is what else is true? And it's about really what 564 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: helps you get through? And it's resetting our nervous system. 565 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: So what are the things or the one thing or 566 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: the thought or the sensation that helps you get through? 567 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: A resource for you in your life today? What else 568 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: is true for you? Toronto Burke? What else is true? 569 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: What else is true? Is that I am gentle, right 570 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: I am. I am not rough around the edges all 571 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: the time. I'm not, you know, badass all the time. 572 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: I am my own soft place to land sometimes and 573 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: then and I don't think I acknowledge that enough. I 574 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: don't know if that's what you mean and when you're 575 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: asking that question, but that's what came to my mind first, 576 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: as on my own resource sometimes is that what helps 577 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: you get through? Sometimes? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, Sometimes being my 578 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: own resource. It is, it is, certainly its supposed to 579 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: be on my mind lately. I just feel like, you know, 580 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: as black women, we always are kind of made to 581 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: feel like you have to be hard as bricks and 582 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: you know, sharp edges, and I'm like, na, that's not 583 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: really who I am all the time, I'm not and 584 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: I don't want to be. And so I try to 585 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: be my own, create my own gentleness for myself because 586 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: people won't give it to you. I love that so much. 587 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: So can you just tell people where to find you? 588 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: Tell them your website. Absolutely, get to know more about Toronto. Well, 589 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: I think I'm just Toronto Burke on Everything or maybe 590 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: Toronto Janine on Instagram. And of course me to movement, 591 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: please go to ours. It's me to envy empty dot org. 592 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: Our website has a ton of resources for survivors and 593 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: if you're not a survivor and you wanted to support survivors, 594 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: to support the movement, you should go there to visit 595 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: our active platform. We as ourselves that the campaign has launched, 596 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: so go check that out. The book You Are Your 597 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: Best Thing, and this fall my memoir will drop, so 598 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: stay tuned for that. Hopefully, I'll be back to talk 599 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: about it. Amazing, amazing, amazing. Thank you, Thank you for 600 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: the work, thank you for being a survivor. Thank you 601 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: for creating this space for empowerment through empathy. I freaking 602 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: love that. Thank you. Thank you, Leverd. I freaking love you. 603 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: You are so so, so, so so special. Thank you. 604 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: I love Toronto Brook so much. What hits me in 605 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: my gut after listening to our conversation is the difficulty 606 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: and wrapping words around the vulnerability required to heal, especially 607 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: for those of us who are survivors of sexual assault. 608 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: If you're a trauma survivor, vulnerability can feel like death. 609 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: And if you're a black, a woman, trans a person 610 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: with a disability, or at the intersection of a few 611 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: or all of these experiences and more, trauma could be 612 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: a huge component of your story. But allowing ourselves to 613 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: be vulnerable, I feel it's the only way we can 614 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: truly heal. Burnet Brown defines vulnerability as uncertainty, risk, and 615 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: emotional exposure. I can testify that allowing myself to be vulnerable, 616 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: allowing myself to confront the uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure 617 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: tied to my various traumas. Has often felt like I 618 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: was going to die, that I couldn't survive, the pain, 619 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 1: the shame just below the surface. But confronting those difficult 620 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: things did not kill me. I'm still here and more 621 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: revealing it from the process to Rono Burke's work and 622 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: the phrase me too as a reminder we are not alone. 623 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe, 624 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: and share with everyone you know. You can find me 625 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook 626 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: at Laverne Cox for Real. Join me next week when 627 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: I talked to Kevin Allred, an award winning author, speaker, 628 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: and educator, about our mutual love and respect for the Queen, 629 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: the Diva herself, Queen be Sasha Fears, the One and 630 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: Only Beyonce, and how her music interrogates American race, gender 631 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: and sexual politics. Until next time, stay in the love. 632 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show is a production of Shondaland Audio 633 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from 634 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 635 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.