1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Ali Wentworth, host of Go Ask Galley. 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: My listeners want more, so we are digging in. It's real. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: It's honest, open and unexpected and sometimes amusing. He told 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: me you chased him with a butcher knife and tried 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: to cut off his penis. But that's his version, and 6 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: everybody has everybody has two two sides of every store exactly. 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: All new episodes of Go Ask Galley release every Thursday. 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: Listen to Go Ask Ally on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Laverne 10 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: Cox and on my podcast, The Laverne Cox Show, we're 11 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: ripping the band aid off. Trauma, resilience, dating, diet culture dating, 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: white supremacy dating. Okay, I'm not gonna get explicit, but 13 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: just because you're cute, like I'm not going you're gonna 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: say yes, girl, and honey. We have a lot of 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: fun along the way. You have a lot of lesbian 16 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: fans who love your femininity and glamour and they just 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: really really want you. I want us to talk openly 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: about the difficult things we all face as humans and 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: as humans in America. Racist white people in the United 20 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: States will sign their own death certificates. They will vote 21 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: for policies that crush them, no safety nets, no healthcare 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: because they feel too much like entitlements. And those are 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: folks of color, right. Listen to the Laverne Cox Show 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get 25 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: your podcast Make sure you subscribe and share. Hi, this 26 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: is Ali Wentworth, host of Go Ask Gali. Season two 27 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: will be back soon with more new episodes. As always, 28 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: Go ask Alli is there for binging and catching up, 29 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: purpose and meaning in life or how you figure out 30 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: what life is all about. And that requires unhappiness. So 31 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: here's the great paradox. To be happy, you also have 32 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: to be unhappy. Don't miss a single episode. Listen to 33 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: Go Ask Ally on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you 34 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Make sure you subscribe and share. Welcome 35 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: to Criminalia, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. Hello, 36 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: and welcome to Criminalia. I'm Mariach from Marquis, and I'm 37 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: Holly Fry. We know that humans have always managed to 38 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: commit crimes, almost certainly before there was even recorded history, 39 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: so we decided that we would start looking at those 40 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: crimes and get our hands dirty. We wanted to dig 41 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: in and look at some of history's crimes and criminals 42 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: to understand them better, and in doing so, we're curious 43 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: if we can find commonality with our modern world and 44 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: our modern problems, and whether these crimes look different a 45 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 1: little bit of distance on the timeline, and whether any 46 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: of these perpetrators emerge as more sympathetic characters. This first 47 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: season is going to be all about poisoners, specifically women poisoners. 48 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: Poison is often called a woman's weapon, despite the fact 49 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: that roughly two thirds of the poisonings committed throughout time 50 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: have been the work of men. So let's start looking 51 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: at these women and their motivations and see if any 52 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: patterns develop. This week, we're looking into the life and 53 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: crimes of Tilly Clinic, a Polish immigrant who killed at 54 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: least one and possibly as many as twenty people and 55 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: at least one dog between the years nineteen fourteen and 56 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two. I will confess that when you were 57 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: telling me about the research you were doing initially on 58 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: this and you mentioned the dog, I was like, well, 59 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: I hate her, Not that it wasn't terrible. It she 60 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: killed people, just you know, that was for me, the 61 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: worst thing that she could have done as well. She 62 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: was born Tiafila Burick to Michelina and Michael Burick on 63 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: October twenty second, eighteen seventy seven, and Tilly was probably 64 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: right around four years old when her family immigrated to 65 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: the United States. They moved from Poland to the Little 66 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: Poland neighborhood of Chicago, and of the seven children in 67 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: the family, at Tilly, as she was called, was the eldest. 68 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: Chicago has a long history of Polish immigration, and Polish 69 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: Americans have lived in the area for well over a century. 70 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: In eighteen ninety, around the time Tilly was born, there 71 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: was a wave of immigration to the United States. At 72 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: that time, the number of Polish immigrants in the city 73 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: blossomed to more than twenty five thousand. By nineteen thirty, 74 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: a few years before she died, that number had grown 75 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: to one hundred and sixty five thousand. Most they lived 76 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: below the poverty line. Is the tale of immigration in 77 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: so many ways. So let's set the scene of the 78 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: actual situation we're talking about today. So this is Chicago 79 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: in the early twentieth century. You couldn't necessarily count on 80 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: your food and drinks to be clean. Upton Sinclair started 81 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: publishing the serialized version of his groundbreaking X baz of 82 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: the meat industry in the US, The Jungle, in nineteen 83 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: oh five, and while that led to the creation of 84 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: the Meat Inspection Act in nineteen oh six, food safety 85 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: legislation was still in its infancy. But if you were 86 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: at a restaurant or a club or a hotel around 87 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: the city, there were other dangers when it came to 88 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,559 Speaker 1: what you consumed at the table. In particular, wait staff 89 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: were known to target patrons who didn't tip well. Not 90 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: like the content of the chatter in Fight Club, although 91 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: honestly maybe a little of that. They usually chose poisons 92 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: and various other things you really don't want to be 93 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: in your food, So remember always tip well. But moreover, 94 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: it turns out that you couldn't really count on food 95 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: safety at home either, at least if you lived with 96 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: a Tilly Clinic. During the time that Chicago's most visible 97 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: criminal element was organized crime, Tilly was quietly becoming the 98 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: city's most prolific female serial killer. She'd allegedly killed between 99 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: six and twenty people. Like we said, but that was 100 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: all through arsenic poisoning. So we're gonna talk first just 101 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: about what arsenic actually is. It is a naturally occurring 102 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: element in the Earth's crust and in its raw state. 103 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: As much as it has this instant conjuring of poison, 104 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: it's not actually harmful the way it naturally exists. Arsenic 105 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: only really becomes poisonous when it's converted into arsenic trioxide, 106 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: which is better known as white arsenic. White arsenic not 107 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: only is odorless, but it's tasteless, and it's white or 108 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: transparent in form, so it's easily confused with sugar or flour. 109 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: But it's highly toxic when it's inhaled into your lungs 110 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: or when you ingest it. And it might surprise you 111 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: that even white arsenic is actually fairly benign in relatively 112 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: small amounts, because it is very lethal at higher doses. 113 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: In fact, doctors have actually prescribed white arsenic through the 114 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: years in its low dosage as a treatment for things 115 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: like asthma, typhus, malaria, even menstrual cramps, and it continues 116 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: to be administered intravenously as a chemotherapy for a specific 117 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: type of leukemia. When arsenic is ingested, initially it causes 118 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: symptoms such as abdominal pain, diarrhea that's often being accompanied 119 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: by bleeding and vomiting. It's terrible. As the dose gets 120 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: more and more lethal in the body, though, the symptoms 121 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: also begin to include convulsions, cardiovascular problems, hair loss, liver 122 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: and kidney problems, and even organ damage. So not a 123 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: peaceful way to go. Definitely not sugar. No, and despite 124 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: its potency, it has been used in the production of semiconductors. 125 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: It's been used as wood preservative, and it's also sometimes 126 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: found in pesticides. Manufacturers in the nineteenth century started using 127 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: it for it's a green pigment in products like paint 128 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: and wallpaper, fabrics, beauty products, and as food coloring. The 129 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: list goes on because green is very beautiful color, so 130 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: sometimes those products would actually make people sick, but at 131 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: the time, no one was suspecting that the arsenic in 132 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: them was the problem that was causing their ailment. In 133 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century, when Tilly was busy murdering people 134 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: in her community, the average Americans medicine cabinet was stocked 135 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: with all sorts of toxic things like radioactive radium for 136 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: acne and mercury as a topical antiseptic for cuts and 137 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: scrapes and burns. Morphine showed up in everyday products and 138 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,679 Speaker 1: everything from teething medications to cures for heroin addiction. From 139 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: roughly the late eighteenth into the early twentieth century is 140 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: considered to be the golden age of poisoners, and during 141 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: that time, arsenic specifically caught the nickname the inheritance powder. 142 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: And you can probably imagine why the police really didn't 143 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: have any of the tools to test the corpse for poison. 144 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: Arsenic wasn't only easy to acquire, it was hard to 145 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: detect as a cause of death, which was win win 146 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: for the Golden Age of poisoners. It was common practice 147 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: for doctors to treat suspected poisoning with leeches bleeded out 148 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: or try to identify the poisons by sniffing the contents 149 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: of the person's stomach. Remember how we said arsenic was 150 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: odorless though, Yeah, so you just sniff those contents for nothing. 151 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: But it was also just unusual for a doctor or 152 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: a coroner to suspect arsenic as a cause of death, 153 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: mainly because the symptoms of arsenic poisoning that Maria just 154 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: talked about diarrhea and vomiting and abdominal pain are so 155 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: similar to a lot of other disorders. It's also really 156 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: hard to place a poisoner at the scene of the murder. 157 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: Dying can typically take hours or longer if you administered 158 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: the poison gradually, such as with someone's meals, so the 159 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: perpetrator could easily have a seemingly airtight alibi for their 160 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: whereabouts because the window of time had such fuzzy edges. 161 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: But it actually wouldn't be until the late nineteenth century 162 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: that a chemist named James marsh would come up with 163 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: a reliable chemical test for arsenic poisoning. Today, arsenic poisoning 164 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: is treated with chelation therapy, which uses special drugs that 165 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: bind to metal ions in your blood. So rough on 166 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: Rats was the product that became popular in the late 167 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. It was composed mainly of arsenic and a 168 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: little black coal for masking the poison, and while i 169 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: was advertised for use in killing rats, mice, bedbugs, flies, roaches, 170 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: it occasionally was used for the very off label purpose 171 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: of killing husbands. Believe it or not, the marketing slogan 172 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: for this poison rough on Rats was don't die in 173 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: the house, thinking, of course, being that the creature you 174 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: had poisoned would scurry away to die. It was also 175 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: really easily available at the local store, and Tillie actually 176 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: got her first bottle of rough On Rats from her 177 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: cousin Nellie Kulik, and Nellie, it would turn out, was 178 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: also a fellow poisoner murder and husbands. According to your 179 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: accounts from her neighbors, Tillie was sent to have precognitive dreams, 180 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: meaning that she could predict the future in real life 181 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: through sort of a sixth sensish kind of way. She 182 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: began to predict the depths of neighborhood dogs, and she 183 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: was surprisingly accurate, but it turns out she was just 184 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: scheduling their depths. We're getting a little ahead of ourselves though, 185 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: in the progression of Tilly's activities with rough On Rats. 186 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: So we're gonna back up to eighteen ninety five. Hi, 187 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 1: it's Laverne Cox and on my podcast, The Laverne Cox Show, 188 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: we're ripping the band aid off. Trauma, resilient dating, diet 189 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: culture dating, white supremacy dating. Okay, I'm not gonna get explicit, 190 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: but just because you're cute, like I'm not going, You're 191 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: gonna say yes, girl, and honey, we have a lot 192 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: of fun along the way. You have a lot of 193 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,719 Speaker 1: lesbian fans who love your femininity and glamour and they 194 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: just really really want I want us to talk openly 195 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: about the difficult things we all face as humans and 196 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: as humans in America, racist white people in the United 197 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: States will sign their own death certificates. They will vote 198 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,479 Speaker 1: for policies that crush them, no safety nets, no healthcare 199 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: because they feel too much like entitlements. And those are 200 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: folks of color, right. Listen to the Laverne Cox Show 201 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 202 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: your podcast. Make sure you subscribe and share. Hi. This 203 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: is Ali Wentworth, host of Go Ask Gali. Season two 204 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: will be back soon with more new episodes, but what 205 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: you can do is binge the first half of season 206 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: two or revisit our first spectacular season. Everyone has to 207 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: deal with money, and typically like people don't talk about it. 208 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: It's like this quiet thing that everyone wants to avoid. 209 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: But then everyone wants to live this life and doesn't 210 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: matter what how you define that life, but you need 211 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: money for it. Just a few of our fabulous guests 212 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: the season are former editor of People magazine Jess Cagel, 213 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 1: New York Times bestselling author Isabel Gillies, and writer and 214 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: Oprah's favorite life coach Martha Beck. And people come to 215 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: me now and they will say negative things, and I think, 216 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: I respectfully do not give a crap what you think, 217 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: because I'm a crazy old bat now and you can't 218 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: stop me. That's great. Our guests have so much to say. 219 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: One listen isn't enough Listen to go ask Ali on 220 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Make 221 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: sure you subscribe and share. Hey, I'm Gabrielle Collins, Period 222 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: drama nerd and you're behind the scenes guide to Bridgerton. 223 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: On Bridgerton, the official podcast. We're learning how this fantasy 224 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: world dipped in history came to life. Daphanie. Her costume 225 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: design really is about the elegance of simplicity. It's just 226 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: color and shape. We went old school and we got 227 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: two scene cartists in who painted the backings for us 228 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: by hand. These dukes are all like in their late 229 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: twenties early thirties. Almost all of them were unmarried, really 230 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: good looking, and none of them have syphilis. Can you 231 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: imagine when he looks into your eyes and then he 232 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: dicts you we just heard this sort of ripping sound. Yeah, 233 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: I think that's just been a wardrobe malfunction. Listen to 234 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: Bridgerton the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 235 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: or anywhere you get your favorite shows. Welcome back to Criminalia. 236 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: By eighteen ninety five, Tillie was married to John mckaywitz. 237 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: His name may have been Joseph not John. Records aren't 238 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: entirely consistent, but we're gonna go with John because that's 239 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: what the majority of records from the time referred to 240 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: him as. That is one of the delights word I'm 241 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: using ironically of doing historical research, particularly when you are 242 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: talking about immigrants, because there was not a vested interest 243 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: always in the government in keeping accurate records about them, 244 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: So you often have these people's stories that get really 245 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: muddy because their names do shift around in the historical record. Anyway, 246 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: by all accounts this couple, Tilly and John were well 247 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: liked in their community, and their marriage appeared by all 248 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: accounts to be happy. Tilly made her life as a housekeeper, 249 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: but it was also during this time that Tilly started 250 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: telling neighbors about some visions that she was having. She was, 251 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: as we mentioned before the break, an alleged psychic who 252 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: was skilled specifically at predicting deaths. This included predicting the 253 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: death of her own husband, John, who had left her 254 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: a thousand dollars When he died in nineteen fourteen. The 255 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: coroner's report listed his death as a result of heart trouble, 256 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: nothing suspicious. There was no reason at the time to 257 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: suspect that John had been poisoned by his wife. The 258 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: nickname black widow, which is often given to women who 259 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: kill their lovers in order to inherit their wealth, would 260 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: eventually be bestowed upon Tilly, but not just yet. Here's 261 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: a little more in detail on John's sudden end. Okay. 262 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: In the beginning of nineteen fourteen, Tilly began telling friends 263 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: and those in the community that she dreamed that John 264 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: was ill. She expected he would be on his deathbed 265 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: in just a few weeks, and when he died in 266 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: January thirteenth that year, the cause of death was listed 267 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: as heart trouble, and Tilly collected a thousand dollars in 268 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: life insurance. I guess after nineteen years she just didn't 269 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: want to gun it to twenty. She's like enough. After 270 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: receiving that payout on John's life insurance policy, Tilly actually 271 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: remarried pretty quickly. See now that's the thing. She remarried 272 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: quickly often. And I always sort of wonder like if 273 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: she would follow in love with someone new and be like, oh, 274 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: I'll kill my husband and we'll start out fresh with 275 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: like this new thousand dollars. It's just my own personal theory. Yeah, 276 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: I think there's merit to it. But her new husband, 277 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: Joseph Raskowski, died just three months after they got married, 278 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: and he happened to leave his widow twelve hundred dollars 279 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: in cash and seven hundred twenty two dollars in insurance money. 280 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: Not only did Tilly predict Joseph's death, she went on 281 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: to predict the deaths of her third husband, although they 282 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: may or may not have been married, it's a little sketchy. 283 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: And her fourth husband, as well as children, she cared 284 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: for a few neighbors and possibly some other family members. 285 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: And not only did she joke with neighbors that her 286 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: fourth husband, Frank, had quote two inches to live, which 287 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: is a really interesting, fascinating turn of phrase. She allegedly 288 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: taunted him on his deathbed and said things like it 289 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: won't be long now, and you'll be dying soon, which 290 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: is in my own home. You got two inches to live. 291 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,360 Speaker 1: I don't know, right, it's like callous on a level 292 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: that's hard to comprehend, right right. She also, in an 293 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: act of both cruel and creative, knitted herself a morning 294 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: hat as she sat by his bedside while he was dying. 295 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: She even so far as to purchase a thirty dollars 296 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: bargain coffin to keep in the basement of her house 297 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: waiting for his death. That storage areatment was a little 298 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: unsettling request made of her landlord, who began to be 299 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: a little suspicious of Tilly after that came in. Frank 300 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: did die on April twentieth, nineteen twenty one, and it 301 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: is said that when it happened, Tillie played dance music 302 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: in the room. The coroner listed Frank's cause of death 303 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: as bronchial pneumonia. Tillie's poisonous predilections unnoticed. She once again 304 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: collected on his life insurance, this time in the amount 305 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,959 Speaker 1: of six hundred seventy five dollars nearly as much as 306 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: the last two. I know she's downgrading the insurance situation 307 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: with each one. They're going faster now, you know. There's 308 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: just not enough time to like build up to the thousand. 309 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: That's another theory I have. It's interesting and grimly fun 310 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: to note that Frank An Tillie's home at nine twenty 311 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 1: four Winchester. It's a house in East Dillige in Chicago, 312 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: shows up on the Old Fourth Square social networking site 313 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: as Old Lady Tilly Climic's Haunted House. Even today, Tilly 314 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: was still not arrested, though that didn't happen until after 315 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: she botched an attempt at poisoning husband number five, that 316 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: was Joseph Clemick. She and Joseph had gotten married in 317 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: July of nineteen twenty one, again not long after Frank's demise, 318 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: just a few and Clemmick is said to have been 319 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: a relatively wealthy man, but Tilly did not like that. 320 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: He also apparently had a wandering eye, and by October 321 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: of nineteen twenty two he was in the hospital experiencing 322 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: arm numbness, leg paralysis, and other symptoms consist with severe 323 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,959 Speaker 1: arsenic poisoning. So while he was in the hospital, Tillie's 324 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: husband recalled that his food had tasted strangely lately, and 325 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: here's one big red flag. He remembered, the dog dying 326 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: after eating scraps of food till he had cooked. Her 327 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: husband also stated he'd planned to press charges against her 328 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: and till he kissed him. Such a strange dynamic at play. 329 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: But it was not poisoning Joseph that she went on 330 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: trial for. While Tilly was arrested initially for the attempted 331 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: murder of Joseph Klemick, who would survive her poison his 332 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: hand after an investigation into the deaths of her previous husbands, 333 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: the crime Tilly was eventually tried for was the murder 334 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: of Frank, her third husband, but even as she was 335 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: taken in, she appeared completely indifferent to the whole situation. 336 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: It is said that she told the arresting officer, who 337 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: was Lieutenant William Malone, the next one I want to 338 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: cook dinner for is you. You made all my trouble. 339 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: After eighteen hours of interrogation, Tilly confessed her crimes, admitting 340 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: to mixing rat poison into her victim's food and drink 341 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: note plural. It's interesting, right, Like eighteen hours of interrogation 342 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: is considered extreme, it is, and she just gives it 343 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: all up. Then there's that whole thing of like is 344 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: this a coerced confession at that point? But her later 345 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: behavior makes it seem like she she's pretty down with 346 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: this information being one true and part of public records. Yeah, 347 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: she's a badass. Just two grains of arsenic is enough 348 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: to kill almost anyone, and as much as eight grains 349 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: were found in Frank's organs, so enough to kill four people. 350 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: Authorities decided to exoom Tillie's other husbands and found their 351 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: stomachs each contained lethal doses of arsenic, and although evidence 352 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: existed to convict her of as many as twenty murders 353 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: by arsenic, only one charge resulted in a conviction. Although 354 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: she was not the only woman and wife in her 355 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: community to be arrested for suspicion of poisoning, she was 356 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: the only one of them who was sentenced. Yeah. Remember 357 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: how we mentioned her cousin earlier. Yeah. Authorities went on 358 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,959 Speaker 1: to investigate a possible poison ring in the Little Poland neighborhood, 359 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: arresting other local women. In what the Assistant state Attorney 360 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: at the time. That was A man named William McLaughlin 361 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: called quote the most astonishing wholesale poisoning plot uncovered. He 362 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: wanted the death penalty for Tilly, but without better evidence, 363 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: the other women who had been rounded up just had 364 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: to be released. As Tilly's story unfurls, it becomes apparent 365 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: that it wasn't just husbands that she poisoned. She played 366 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 1: fast and loose with rough on rats, poisoning people who 367 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: irritated her and dogs who barked too much in the neighborhood. 368 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: Life was especially risky if you were one of Tillie's cousins. 369 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: In nineteen twelve, Tilly's cousin, Stanley Zaczuski, died at the 370 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: age of sixteen. Tilly, who was in her mid thirties 371 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: at the time, tended on him while he was ill. 372 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: Their cousin, Stanley's sister, Stell, died in nineteen thirteen. She 373 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: was twenty three at the time, and again Tillie played 374 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: the role of caregiver. After her husband Frank's death, Tillie 375 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: started seeing a man named Joseph Grandkowski, like lovers before him. 376 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: Joseph died in nineteen fourteen after jilting her and back 377 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: to cousins. In nineteen fifteen, Tillie's cousin Helen died at 378 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: age fifteen. Another cousin, Nick Micko, became sick from arsenic poisoning, 379 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: but he was lucky enough to actually recover. In nineteen nineteen, 380 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: Tillie's cousin Rose died after attending Tillie and Frank's wedding party. 381 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighteen, Tillie may have been involved in the 382 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: poisoning of woejek Strummer, who was the husband of her 383 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: cousin Nellie, the same Nellie from she procured her rat poison. 384 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: It turns out that Tillie wasn't only cooking arsenic in 385 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,719 Speaker 1: two meals, she was also a confectioner. Twizzlers may make 386 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,719 Speaker 1: mouse happy, but you definitely want to skip Tillie's streets. 387 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: So Stella Guskowski, sister of Tillie's former boyfriend Joseph, got 388 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: sick after she ate a candy that was given to 389 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: her by Tillie after the two women had an argument. 390 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: Joseph died from tainted candy as well. Rose, split had 391 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: also stayed un Tillie gave her arsenic confused candies after 392 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: Joseph Klinik talked to her. So a jealous Tillie was 393 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: willing to go after innocent women who her husband even 394 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: dared to converse with. So let's keep going because we're 395 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: only about halfway through the body count. There was also 396 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: a woman named Bessie Kupzick's sister in law of Tilly's 397 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: husband Frank, who fell sick after eating Tillie's cooking, but 398 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: Bessie recovered. Children, primarily relatives, were also on Tillie's hit list. 399 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: At least four children in Tillie's sphere were poisoned between 400 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen nineteen eighteen. Dorothy Spara died at age two. 401 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: Twins Sophie and Ben Strummer also died. John Strummer was 402 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: the only one to recover. Lillian's drummer, who was in 403 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: her early teens, lived at Tillie's home for a year 404 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: when she became deathly ill from the food and suffered 405 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: heart trouble. So skip ahead just a few years to 406 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 1: March nineteen twenty three, and a man named Myers goes missing. 407 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: Suspicious Maybe he might have been one of Tilly's husbands, 408 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: but he was more likely just a boyfriend. Records from 409 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: this time, as we've mentioned, not always robust, and a 410 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: lot of times people would just claim to be spouses 411 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: without going through the paperwork, kind of like common law, 412 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: but more like they were just like, well, we lived 413 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: together and we live as a married couple. Either way, 414 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: the risk of dying was obviously considerably high for any 415 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: of Tilly's paramours, legally wed or not. I don't think 416 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: she cared about the paperwork, just the life insurance. At 417 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: her trial, Tillie wore the black hat that she had 418 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: made when her third husband, Frank, had been on his deathbed. 419 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: She had also warned it to his funeral as she 420 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: had planned. Historically, in Chicago in the early twentieth century, 421 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: women who were brought to trial for murder, which was 422 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: usually murder of their husbands, were almost always acquitted. If 423 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: a woman was unlucky enough to be convicted, she was 424 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: generally going to be given an amazingly light sentence in 425 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: comparison to men who had stood trial for murder, and 426 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: it really helped your case. If you were very feminine, 427 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: Weeping a bit and flirting would always help. In the 428 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: years leading up to Tillie's trial, twenty eight women had 429 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: been charged with murder in Cook County, where Chicago is located. 430 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: Twenty four were acquitted. It is probably no coincidence that 431 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: all twenty four of those women were considered conventionally attractive. 432 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: Up to twenty eight. Only four were found guilty Hilda Axeland, 433 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: who is not considered imady Vera trepagnier who was middle aged, 434 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: Emma Simpson, who was determined to be insane, and Dora Waterman, 435 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: who also was not known for her looks. On the 436 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: other hand, who well dressed, well groomed Cora Orthuin, who 437 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: shot her boyfriend over his cheating walked free. Tillie, though 438 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: did not have these advantages. She was nothing like skylish 439 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: Belva Gartner and beautiful Beulah Annam, the killers who inspired 440 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: the play Chicago. According to Genevieve Forbes, a prime reporter 441 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: who covered the trial for the Chicago Tribune, Tilly was 442 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: neither beautiful nor charming. She was described as a middle 443 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: aged woman forty five who was squat quote unquoted, with 444 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: a greasy complexion and a lumpy figure. Her dull brown 445 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: hair was pulled back into a nod at the back 446 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: of her head. Despite having lived in Chicago since she 447 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: was just a little kid. She spoke only broken English, 448 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: and it was recorded that she growled, I shudder to 449 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: think what genevieve for. During the proceedings, prosecutors read a 450 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: list of twenty alleged victims of Tilly, pausing after each 451 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: name to ask her did you kill this person? And 452 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: each time she would reportedly shrug, responding to each of 453 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: the simple yeah, I wish I could have bet. At 454 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: this trial, the trial judge asked for something called a 455 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: psychopathic lab report. According to the examining doctor, Tillie was 456 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: a quote subnormal mentality with an intellect and I quote 457 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: again no higher than that of an eleven year old child. 458 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: As we just mentioned, she didn't really speak English especially well, 459 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: so let's take these results with a grain of salt. 460 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: It was reported she was afflicted with dementia precox, a 461 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: diagnosis today that would be schizophrenia. She was also described 462 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: as a rattlesnake, as a heartless woman, and due to 463 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: the murders around her, she got the nickname we mentioned earlier, 464 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: Black Widow. Hi it's Ali Wentworth, a middle aged woman 465 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: with a lot of questions and a lot of answers 466 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: I pulled out of my tush as host of Go 467 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: ask Ali, my listeners want more, So we are digging in. 468 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: It's real, it's honest, open and unexpected and sometimes amusing. 469 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: Can you start with your infamous nineteen thousand dollars haircut? Yes, 470 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: and this is a great story I feel about mothers 471 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: and daughters with a dream and an empty bank account. 472 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: Just a few of our fabulous guests this season are 473 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: New York Times bestselling author Isabel Gillies, writer and Oprah's 474 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: Favorite Life coach Martha Beck, and former editor of People 475 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: magazine Jess Cagel. If we know intimate details about another person, 476 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: then that person is socially important to us. Okay, so 477 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: that's what you like to gossip about? Wait, what do 478 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: you gussip about? All new episodes of Go ask Alli 479 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: release every Thursday. Listen to Go ask Ally on the 480 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys, 481 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: Katie Lowe's here. You might know me as Quinn Perkins 482 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: on Scandal. I am also the host of Katie's Crib. 483 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: It's a podcast about all things parenthood. Katie's Crib is 484 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: back with new episodes every Thursday. We have got an 485 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: amazing lineup of guests. We have got the amazing Katerina Scorsone, 486 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: who you might also know as doctor Amelia Shephard from 487 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: Grey's Anatomy. She is talking about her three children. We've 488 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: also got kat McPhee Foster. She just became a mom 489 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: like two seconds ago. We just have a great hang 490 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: sessh talking about all things new Mama. We are going 491 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: to be covering everything from discipline to mom ring. Tune 492 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: in as I bring on celebrities, experts, and even more 493 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: guests to continue to help you get through parenthood one 494 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: step at a time. Listen to Katie's Crib on the 495 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Because 496 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: of the evidence beyond the single murder, investigators obtained permission 497 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: to exzoom the corpses of Tillie's dead husbands for arsenic 498 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: toxicity testing. Newspaper headlines covering the trial featured headlines like 499 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: three more bodies to be exoomed in clinic case and 500 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: bodies of other relatives will be exhoomed. All those cousins, 501 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: all those cousins, all the children, Yeah, the children and 502 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: dogs thing. I just obviously, killing anybody is bad. But Tillie, though, 503 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: stuck to a story that Frank had died of alcohol 504 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: poisoning and that she had absolutely not killed her spouses. 505 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: She said, quote, I loved them, they loved me. They 506 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: just died, same as other people. She continued, I'm not 507 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: responsible for that. I could not help if they wanted 508 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: to die. Contrary to her statement during the trial, the 509 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: coroner accusingly asserted, quote, there is no question that missus 510 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: Klak poisoned everyone she wanted to get out of the way. 511 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: After the jury deliberated for just an hour and twenty minutes, 512 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: Tilly was found guilty of the murder of her third husband, 513 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: Frank Kopsick. In nineteen twenty three, Judge Marcus Kavanaugh sentenced 514 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: her to life in prison without the possibility of parole. 515 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: That was the harshest sentence ever given to a woman 516 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: in Chicago at that time. Four jurors thought she should 517 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: be given the death penalty. At the time, no woman 518 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: had ever been sentenced to death in the state of Illinois. 519 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: The Chicago Tribune reporter Forbes called her gruesomely cruel and 520 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: went on to say that Tilly is a spectator in 521 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: her own drama. While on all accounts, Tilly is considered 522 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: to have been friendly to the other prisoners once she 523 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: was incarcerated, she definitely did not want to talk about 524 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: the poisonings. It has said that she would yell, quote, 525 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: I didn't rob nobody. I didn't shoot nobody. I didn't 526 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: poison nobody. I didn't everybody picks on me. Everybody makes 527 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: eyes at me like they're going to eat me. Why 528 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: do they make eyes like that. I tell the truth. 529 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: Anything I did, I did to myself, nobody else. She 530 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: was incarcerated at the Illinois State Penitentiary at Juliet, with 531 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: one stipulation. It said that while Tilly enjoyed the few 532 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: food served to her in prison, the judge declared that 533 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: she never be allowed to cook for her fellow inmates. 534 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: After thirteen years of incarceration, she died on November twentieth, 535 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six. So Tilly clearly does seem to have 536 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: had a certain detachment and a callousness about the crime 537 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: she was found guilty of, and that cannot have helped 538 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: her case. But we also can't regard another significant influence 539 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: in the outcome of her trial, which we briefly touched on. Now, 540 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: you might hope something like physical appearance wouldn't matter today 541 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: in the courtroom, as it clearly did in Tillie's day. 542 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: You might surprise to hear that the judge and jury 543 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: can still be swayed by a pretty face. What we 544 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: know from study upon study is that most people, even 545 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: without being conscious of it, consider physically attractive adults to 546 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: be healthier, more intelligent, and to have better personalities than 547 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: those who are not considered as esthetically pleasing. In fact, 548 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: in economics, there's a phenomenon known as the beauty premium, 549 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: and on the opposite side of the spectrum there's what's 550 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: called the ugliness penalty. But that's just not limited to economics, 551 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: it's just how humans work with each other. In recent years, 552 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: studies have also found that as humans, we generally consider 553 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: attractive people in our society to just be better people, 554 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: whether that's in the workplace, at school, in relationships, or 555 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: in the courtroom, where you would hope and expect to 556 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: find impartiality. Studies in the last few decades have found 557 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: that juries tend to be biased in the favor of 558 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: good looking defendants. This can mean people considered to be 559 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: attractive or not only found guilty less often, but that 560 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: they also received less severe sentences when they are found 561 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: guilty unattractive, however you define it. Defendants, on the other hand, 562 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: we're more likely to be served with longer and harsher sentences, 563 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: an average of twenty two months longer in prison, and 564 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 1: that's even today. So while Tilly we could never paint 565 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: as a good guy in any of this, she definitely 566 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 1: still was also a victim of this kind of weird 567 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: bias that people won't even acknowledge that they have. Right, 568 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: we feel that we're above it now, but we're not. 569 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: We're clearly not. No. And the thing is, it's one 570 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: of those things that's insidious, right like we all have it. 571 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: We all have these biases. So you can't presume that, 572 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: in recognizing that they exists, that you have overcome your 573 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: own because it's hardwired almost in some ways, it's not 574 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: really hardwired. You can relearn it, but it takes an 575 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: awful lot of conscious effort, absolutely, and a constant conscious 576 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: effort probably for the rest of your life. You're always 577 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 1: practicing it. Yes, But in less downer talk, Hey, Maria, 578 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: it's my favorite time of the show. Cocktail Hour. Yes, indeed, 579 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: What's Your Poison? Our time where we'd come up with 580 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: a little something, something that will relate to the show 581 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,720 Speaker 1: in a fun way. And since we've been talking about Tilly, 582 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: and since she was a Polish immigrant, I wanted to 583 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 1: do something in honor of her Polish heritage. So I 584 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: squirreled around on the internet for a while because I 585 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: couldn't come up with anything on my own, and I 586 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: discovered this recipe. It's called a few different things. The 587 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: name that I enjoy is Polish and what this is 588 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: is Zubrowka vodka, which is a bison grass vodka. Did 589 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: you say bison grass vodka? I did. That's interesting. Yeah, 590 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's the grass that bison prefer, 591 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: like five bison everywhere. I don't swear by this grass. 592 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. It has a blade of grass in 593 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: the bottle. I also came across this drink called a 594 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: Frisky Bison aka the Polish Kiss. So clearly so the 595 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: Polish Kiss is the version that I found was one 596 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: point five ounces of this bison grass vodka and then 597 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: five ounces of apple juice. And the way it was 598 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: touted when I read about it was that it tastes 599 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: just like apple pie, and does it It does not, 600 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: at least not the version I made. Now, let me 601 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: back up the truck for a minute, because I don't 602 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: want to blame the recipe maker. I but it's delicious. 603 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,399 Speaker 1: It's just not like apple pie. I think probably if 604 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: you are making it with normal apple juice from the store, 605 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: it probably does start to taste like apple pie. But 606 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 1: I bought organic, unsweetened hippie apple juice to go with 607 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: the legs. So what happened is that it tastes like 608 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: you have just picked a fresh apple off of a 609 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: tree and taken a bite of it. Because that vodka 610 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: has that grassy flavor that makes it feel like a 611 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: fresh plant based item. And it's absolutely beautiful. It's very crisp, 612 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 1: sounds delicious. It's like it's a summer day cocktail. For sure. 613 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: It was very delightful. I could see that she would 614 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: probably drink that while she was waiting for her husband 615 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: to die, Like while she was knitting her hat. She's like, Oh, 616 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: I just something refreshing to drink. While I will say this, 617 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: I will say this that cocktail vibes to me a 618 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: little too fancy for her. I picture her as like 619 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: a bear drink. It does seem a little fancy. And 620 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: remember Chicago in the twenties. Probably not like I want 621 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: fancy imported vodka. I doubt I would like the imported 622 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: bison grass vodka from my homeland. Okay, probably didn't come 623 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: up much. I guess noo, and I guess now. But 624 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: that is this week's What's Your Poison? And thank you 625 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: for joining us again on Criminalia. If you would like 626 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: to subscribe to the podcast, we would like you to 627 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: do that as well, and you can do that on 628 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, at Apple Podcasts, or wherever it is 629 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: you listen. Criminalia is a production of Shondaland Audio in 630 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, please 631 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast Tasks, or wherever you 632 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.