1 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy Westervelt, and today to 2 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: kick off the new year, we're talking to longtime progressive 3 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: organizer Max Berger about two really big questions for climate 4 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: how do you build an effective movement? And what do 5 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: we do about the unraveling of democracy in America. I 6 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to Berger in particular about these questions 7 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: because he's been involved with some of the most effective 8 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: social movements in recent history, the Sunrise Movement and Occupy 9 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: Wall Street. And he's also worked in politics for a 10 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: wide range of folks, including Howard Dean, Corey Bush, and 11 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren. Today, Berger works with More Perfect Union, an 12 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: advocacy group that helps working people be seen and heard 13 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: in media coverage. We spoke back in November twenty twenty 14 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: one for a wrap up episode of Seen on Radio's 15 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: Climate season, focused on what needs to be done now 16 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: to avoid the most catastrophic impacts of the climate crisis. 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: I'll link to that episode in the show notes. It's 18 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: well worth a listen. But I also wanted to bring 19 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: folks this longer conversation because I think it's just so 20 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: relevant to the task at hand as we start a 21 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: new year. Hope you enjoy the conversation. It's coming up 22 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: right after this quick break. 23 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: So I was hoping maybe you could start with just 24 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: a little bit of your own personal background. I knowe 25 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: you've been an organizer in progressive spaces for a really 26 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: long time. 27 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on. It's a pleasure to 28 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 3: be on. Yeah. So I have been doing progressive and 29 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: left politics for what now, it turns out to be 30 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 3: quite a long time. I first started when I was 31 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 3: in high school actually doing organizing against the war in Iraq, 32 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 3: and I started a little group called Freedom Not Empire, 33 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 3: which I'm still very proud of the branding. And it 34 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 3: was actually a pretty formative experience for me because I 35 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 3: grew up in a small town in central Massachusetts that 36 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 3: was pretty evenly split politically and about as normal as 37 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 3: could be. And it really helped me, I think, understand 38 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 3: how to try to take what could be considered radical 39 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 3: ideas and try to make them very approachable in mainstream, 40 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 3: which I think I've tried to do and everything that 41 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 3: I've subsequently done. After that, I was actually at an 42 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 3: anti war protest and somebody gave me a fly this 43 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 3: flyer for Howard Dean's presidential campaign, and I thought to myself, Okay, 44 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: that's a plausible that's a plausible theory of change, that 45 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 3: if that guy won, we could actually end the war. 46 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 3: And so I went and I worked for his campaign 47 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 3: as an intern in Burlington, And so that kind of 48 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 3: set up the two main threads of my career, I 49 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 3: guess is sort of social movement stuff more in the streets, 50 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 3: and kind of left of the democratic part and trying 51 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 3: to bring some of those same values and ideas into 52 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 3: mainstream politics. I sometimes joke I've I've worked for every 53 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 3: tea Party of the left organization that has ever existed, 54 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 3: even like putting like all these deep cuts that like 55 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 3: no one's ever really heard of before. But you know, 56 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 3: so I worked for Rebuild the Dream, which was a 57 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 3: move On spinoff that was supposed to kind of be 58 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 3: the counterweight to the Tea Party that was started by 59 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 3: Van Jones. I worked for the Progressive Change Campaign Committee, 60 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 3: which is one of the first organizations I claimed to 61 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 3: be doing what a lot of the groups on the 62 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: right do around elections. And then eventually most I tried 63 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 3: to start with myself in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen with 64 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 3: a bunch of people who have since gone on to 65 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: do a lot of really cool and interesting things. And 66 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 3: then that group, which was called All of Us, we 67 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 3: ended up merging with Justice Democrats. So I was around 68 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 3: when Justice Democrats was first kind of getting started, and 69 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 3: I had a chance to meet some of the folks 70 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: there and work with Corey Bush in twenty eighteen, and so, yeah, 71 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 3: it was early to that organization. And then on the 72 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 3: social movement side, I could tell this chronologically, but I 73 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 3: sort of story is kind of bouncing back and forth 74 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 3: between these two kind of bodies of work. 75 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 4: Yeah. No, that's great. 76 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 3: On the social movement side, so while I was at 77 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 3: Rebuild the Dream, they were like, can you go help 78 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: start a social movement against austerity? This was in like 79 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 3: twenty ten, after the Tea Party took over. They're like, 80 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 3: can you start a youth move movement against austerity? And 81 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 3: I was I remember thinking myself, I know, I don't 82 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 3: know how to do that. That is really hard, but 83 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 3: I agree that that's needed. And that was my job. 84 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 3: When Occupy Wall Street broke out, and I was living 85 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 3: in New York at the time, and I went down 86 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 3: the first week and I remember thinking myself, Okay, like 87 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 3: here these guys did it. I'm just gonna jump on 88 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 3: this thing. So I threw down pretty hard with Occupy, 89 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 3: and I think I was one of the first kind 90 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 3: of NGO connected folks who had been working in politics. 91 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 3: So I ended up helping, I think, bring some of 92 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: those types into the movement and planning some of the 93 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 3: big mobilizations that we did, the big days of mobilization, 94 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 3: and after Occupy, you know, my mind was kind of 95 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 3: blown because I very clearly saw both how this random 96 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 3: ragtag group of folks had started this global movement that 97 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 3: was so bigger and more powerful than anything that the 98 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 3: NGOs that I had worked for had ever been able 99 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 3: to come up. But also, as anybody who was part 100 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 3: of Occupy Wall Street could tell you, it was an 101 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 3: absolute shit show, disaster shambles in its own right. And 102 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 3: so I spent some time thinking about what it would 103 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 3: take to create a social movement that had more structure 104 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 3: and strategy and had a chance to actually win the 105 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 3: things that I was fighting for. And through some of 106 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 3: the things I was exploring at the time, I ended 107 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 3: up getting connected with Carlos Savadra and Paul and who 108 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,799 Speaker 3: were students of Yvonne Maravich, who was one of the 109 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 3: lead organizers of the Serbian Revolution that overthrew Slovanan Loosovich 110 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 3: and Paul and carlos are you know, Americans who had 111 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 3: a lot of movement experience and were studying Yvon's ideas 112 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 3: about movement building, and I sort of agitated them, and 113 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 3: together the three of us ended up starting with a 114 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: lot of other folks an organization called the Momentum Training 115 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 3: Organization that has a theory of organizing or or teach 116 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 3: us some practices around organizing that help folks think through 117 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 3: how to have more structure and strategy so that you 118 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 3: can have highly autonomous movement where people can operate without 119 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 3: central command or organization, while at the same time having 120 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 3: clarity around what the goals are and how to achieve 121 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 3: those things. Together and the Momentum Organization ended up training 122 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 3: a lot of people. After we started Momentum, the Warren 123 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 3: Gaza broke out, so I kind of took the ideas 124 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 3: that we had been starting to cook in Momentum and 125 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 3: applied that to the sort of nascent Jewish left, where 126 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 3: I helped start If Not Now, which is a Jewish 127 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 3: American movement against the occupation in Palestine and learned a 128 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 3: lot about how different it is to apply a theory 129 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 3: than it is to come up with one, But very 130 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: proud of the young people who created that, who really 131 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 3: led that movement. And then I think when we were 132 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 3: doing all of us, I wish I referred to previously. 133 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 3: It's a very small group of people at that time 134 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 3: who were taking this momentum stuff seriously. A lot of 135 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 3: the people who I was personally most invested in were 136 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 3: these kids who ran the Divestment Student Network, which you know, 137 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 3: I thought was the coolest climate organizing happening at the time. 138 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 3: And I remember Varsh came to me in twenty sixteen, 139 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen. I was like, hey, we want to do 140 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 3: we want to front load, we want to plan a 141 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 3: movement coming out of DSN. And we were hoping that 142 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 3: like the folks from if Not Now could train us 143 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 3: and how to do that really absolutely, like let us 144 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 3: know what we can do, do anything to help you guys. 145 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 3: And that movement became Sunrise. And so I feel I 146 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 3: sometimes joke, like with the Sunrise kids that I'm like 147 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 3: the uncle that's like prouder of the movement than like 148 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 3: even the parents or like the kids themselves like, no, 149 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 3: I will not hear you talk badly about yourself. Okay, 150 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 3: I don't want to hear. I worked on the Warren 151 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 3: campaign in twenty twenty doing progressive outreach, and after that 152 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 3: I helped start with Fazshakir, who is the campaign manager 153 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 3: for Bernie's campaign. I helped start an organization called More 154 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 3: Perfect Union, which is a media advocacy organization that builds 155 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 3: power for working people. And that's why I work now 156 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 3: as the editorial director. 157 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 2: Can I help you define front loading also for people 158 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 2: that don't know that term. 159 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, frontloading, it's this term of art that we came 160 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 3: up with in momentum. It essentially just means planning, but 161 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 3: it specifically means planning for a movement that you hope 162 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 3: will decentralize. So if you look at movements like Occupy 163 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 3: in Black Lives Matter that broke out spontaneously or somewhat spontaneously, 164 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 3: you know, they may have a group that really helped 165 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 3: kick them off and get them started, but it basically 166 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 3: went viral without a plan to operate at scale. And 167 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 3: so what ends up happening, in my experience is those 168 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 3: kinds of decohere very rapidly because there's not really especially 169 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: when you're talking about the actual institution of the movement, 170 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 3: there's very little holding it together because it wasn't really 171 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 3: planning to get as big as it got. And so 172 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 3: basically front loading is just a process by which you 173 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 3: spend time thinking about what do we do if this 174 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 3: gets huge? Right, And so as people are entering into 175 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 3: the movement, you can arm them with the knowledge and 176 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 3: the frameworks that they need to operate as part of it, 177 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 3: even if it gets really big. And I think that's 178 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 3: something that has served Sunrise really well in that they 179 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 3: had a pretty not that you don't have to answer 180 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 3: a million different questions, and it's not like this just 181 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 3: kind of like unfolding protein that just then, you know, 182 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 3: collapses into the shape that it needs to be. But 183 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 3: it certainly allows you to It guides your decision making 184 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 3: once the movement is unfolding in a way that I 185 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 3: think it can be really helpful both for leaders and 186 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 3: for even new people coming in the front door to understand, Okay, 187 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 3: if I sign up for the movement, this is what 188 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 3: I'm signing up for. This is why they believe what 189 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 3: they believe, this is what we're fighting for, This is 190 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 3: how we're going to fight for it. And so it 191 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 3: allows you to then take leadership in your local community 192 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 3: and be make decisions that make sense for your local 193 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 3: context while still being part of something much much larger 194 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 3: and more coherent. 195 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 2: The thing that has always struck me about Sunrise too 196 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 2: is that that it does have this this way of 197 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 2: I don't know, just of flattening hierarchy in a way 198 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: like there are leaders, and there are people who take 199 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 2: on that mantle, like like Varshnie and whatnot. But but 200 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 2: then that have this ability to kind of step back 201 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 2: and just be part of the movement again. And I 202 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: wonder if that's a planned thing, like if that's something 203 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: that you I don't know, that that gets sort of 204 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: set up up top. 205 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 3: That's sort of the that's always the goal. I think 206 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 3: it's not. I mean, we could spend the whole hour 207 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 3: just on the kind of organizational theory stuff. So I'm 208 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 3: this is less my strong suit when it comes to 209 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 3: different areas of the movement. But you know, the folks 210 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 3: who help come up with these ideas spend a lot 211 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 3: of time studying different organizational structures, reading about Honestly, one 212 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 3: of the biggest inspirations is the Evangelical Church and the 213 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 3: way that they can create these kind of small groups 214 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 3: that really foster leadership and create tiers of engagement for 215 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 3: people to move up that give people a ton of 216 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 3: agency and autonomy, but within a structure so that as 217 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 3: you're going about your journey that you are you're part 218 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 3: of something bigger and it's kind of laid out. So 219 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 3: the goal is not necessarily to completely do away with hierarchies. 220 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 3: It's not a kind of anarchist like flattening of all difference, 221 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 3: but to allow for the hierarchies to emerge in ways 222 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 3: that serve the movement and that allow people still to 223 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 3: have a lot of choice and freedom in kind of 224 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 3: like how they want to participate in what that means. 225 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 3: And I think especially that helps create a culture in 226 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 3: which there's a lot of accountability and the people at 227 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 3: the top are understanding their role as kind of servant 228 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 3: leaders in fostering fostering a movement that people actually want 229 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 3: to be a part of and that feels good to 230 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 3: be a part of. And I think that's one of 231 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 3: Sunrise as many great successes, is in taking the culture 232 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 3: aspect of that really seriously and wanting to invite people 233 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 3: in and to make it feel friendly, and the Left, 234 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 3: I think doesn't always do that, and I think, more importantly, 235 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 3: doesn't even really try a lot of the time. And 236 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 3: I think Sunrise has. The folks who helped start it 237 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 3: have been a part of the left enough to know 238 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 3: that that doesn't work, right, Like, if you don't create 239 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 3: a welcoming space for people that folks actually want to 240 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 3: be a part of, then they'll go home, because there's 241 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 3: a million other things that they could do, and this 242 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 3: stuff is really hard. I think that they took that 243 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 3: seriously in a way that a very few other groups 244 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 3: do and have, and I think it's a significant part 245 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 3: of their success. 246 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 4: I have been hearing a lot of people recently talking 247 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 4: about systems change, but talking about it in this way 248 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 4: of like making tweaks to the existing system. 249 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 2: Rather than sort of a more like an actual change 250 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: of the system or a replacement of the current system. 251 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 4: And I've seen you at least tweeting a. 252 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: Few things recently like the it might not be possible 253 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 2: to just improve the system that we have, that there 254 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: might actually be a need for what some would call revolution, 255 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: And I'd love to just I don't know hear you 256 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: expand on that, Yeah. 257 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 3: It's a great question. I'll be honest that my answer 258 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 3: here is going to be very preliminary. I think I'm 259 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 3: in the process of trying to figure out what it 260 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 3: would look like to engage with these questions more serious 261 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 3: as is for the broader momentum community. And I would 262 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 3: not claim I'd say in the same way that like 263 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 3: eighteen months out, Sunrise was kind of like, Yeah, we 264 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 3: like want to start a new movement that's not just 265 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: about ending the fossil fuel industry, but that has a 266 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 3: sort of positive vision of what we're trying to fight for, 267 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 3: and we want to frontload it, and we want it 268 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 3: to be big, and we want it to be political 269 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 3: and not just a social movement, but we don't really 270 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 3: know what it is yet. That I'm sort of in 271 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 3: that kind of a place with this conversation. So with 272 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 3: that caveat that I'm still early in trying to figure 273 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 3: out how to talk about and think about this stuff, 274 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 3: I would say I think, well, first, let's like define 275 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 3: the problem, right, because I think my intuition, hypothesis sense 276 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 3: of where this is going is that essentially it's not 277 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 3: really so much a question of should we keep the 278 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 3: current system that we have, or should we throw it 279 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 3: aside and get a totally new system. Unfortunately, I think 280 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 3: this decision has some already been made for us, and 281 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 3: that I don't think that this current system will can 282 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 3: sustain itself through the course of the decade. Because what's 283 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: fundamentally happening here is the United States is a country 284 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 3: we like to think of ourselves and historically have you know, 285 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 3: really been very different from a lot of other countries 286 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 3: and sort of the pre eminent whatever American exceptionalism. But 287 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 3: if you just were to step back and look at 288 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 3: the US as a country, it would be very clear 289 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 3: the current constitutional arrangement is not long for this world. 290 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 3: You have a significant subset of the population, particularly the 291 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 3: white population, although not only that, is really terrified about 292 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 3: the transition away from a white majority population to a 293 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 3: multi racial majority. And that's happening in the context of 294 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 3: world historic inequality. Right, So, you really do have the 295 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 3: conditions for ethno nationalist authoritarian politics right like call it 296 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 3: fascists call it ethno nationalist authoritarian white supremacist politics, in 297 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 3: which there is a significant number of people that are 298 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 3: willing to use violence and do not really subscribe to 299 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 3: the beliefs that are required of participating in a democracy 300 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 3: because they're afraid of losing power within that democracy to 301 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 3: other ethnic groups. That's the kind of beginning of my 302 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 3: analysis here. And if you take that as a kind 303 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 3: of skeleton key for what's going on, you're a lot 304 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 3: becomes more clear in that that group of people, that 305 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 3: kind of white supremacist plurality, is not big enough to 306 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 3: govern the country, but it is big enough to take 307 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 3: over the Republican part as Trump showed, and through their 308 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 3: control of the Republican Party, are able to take control 309 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 3: of state and federal governments because we have a very 310 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 3: anti democratic political system, because our political system is the 311 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 3: result of a compromise with slaveholders and so vastly over 312 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 3: represents small rural states that white people have more power, 313 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 3: and so that white supremacist plurality can take over the 314 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: federal government, state governments with a minority of votes, and 315 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 3: because of other aspects of our anti democratic political system, 316 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 3: the Senate, as we're seeing now, the electoral college, as 317 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 3: we are kind of threatened with every four years that 318 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 3: there's going to be another instance in which the winner 319 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 3: of the popular vote does not become president that has 320 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 3: happened recently in a number of times, and the two 321 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 3: party system which allows for that, let's say, twenty five 322 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 3: to forty percent of the population to govern, we are 323 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 3: not We're not going to see the multi racial majority 324 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 3: have an opportunity to turn its will into law in 325 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 3: the next ten to fifteen years. And I think the 326 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 3: amount of tension that that will generate will break the 327 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 3: political system. I don't think that. I don't think that 328 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 3: the amount of friction that will be created in the 329 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 3: in the in the popular will of being steymied in 330 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 3: that way, particularly when the people in power are taking 331 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 3: active steps to move us away from competitive elections and 332 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 3: limit people's rights, I cannot imagine a situation in which 333 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 3: the multiracial majority takes that lying down. And I also 334 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 3: don't think that the white nationalist plurality is going to 335 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 3: become less vociferous in their opposition to multiracial democracy. So, 336 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 3: and if you were to talk about this with a 337 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 3: comparative political scientist, they would tell you, if you have 338 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: this kind of demographic transition happening, the worst case scenario, 339 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 3: our political system is basically designed as poorly as possible 340 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 3: to manage that kind of a demographic transition because the 341 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 3: two party system collapses all divisions in society into a 342 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: zero sum, all or nothing competitive existential conflict, and when 343 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 3: that gets racialized or ethnicized, it can become dangerous very quickly. 344 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 3: We're as polarized as any time since before the Civil War, 345 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 3: and in addition, with the separately elected presidency and a 346 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 3: bi cameral system, we have what a political scientists referred 347 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 3: to as a profusion of veto points right. So it's very, 348 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 3: very difficult for bills to become law, as we see 349 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 3: with anything. But the example I always use is gun control, 350 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 3: and after name a massacre, people always ask, if this 351 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 3: stuff is eighty five percent approval rating, why can't it pass? 352 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 3: And the truth of the matter is that very little 353 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 3: can pass, very little, very few laws make it through 354 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 3: the our system. And there's a stat that I think 355 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 3: is not bode well. I tweeted this the other day 356 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 3: and people thought I was saying not in jest, but 357 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 3: you know, there's there's a stat that the United States 358 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 3: is the only system that has a separately elected executive 359 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 3: branch that is not at some point collapsed into dictators 360 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 3: because in presidential systems, systems with a separate, separately elected executive. 361 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 3: What happens is there's a conflict between the president and 362 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 3: the Congress and there's some external crisis that requires action, 363 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 3: and the Congress is incapable of or unwilling to respond, 364 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 3: and then the executive takes the authority to do so 365 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 3: without the approval of the legislature. And once that is broken, 366 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 3: it's very hard to take back. And I think some 367 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 3: version of that is more or less inevitable in the 368 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 3: next five years. 369 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 4: So I. 370 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 3: The way I say it is like, look, we're going 371 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 3: to get a new political system. The question is does 372 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 3: it happen before authorityitarian authoritarianism, and civil war or after? 373 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 3: And I would love for it to be before. As 374 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 3: an American, I would love to not have to experience 375 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 3: those things, but I don't. I don't think we're going to. 376 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 3: So I think we're looking more at a post dictatorship, 377 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 3: post conflict situation and less at like how do we 378 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 3: organize a political revolution before? But it's not so neat 379 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 3: and tidy as that, right, Like I it's there's probably 380 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 3: a little bit more overlap in those scenarios than I'm 381 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 3: given credit for. 382 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 4: Well, it's interesting that you say that because I feel 383 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 4: like people. 384 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: Are seemed to be actually increasingly calling for Biden to 385 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 2: do that, you know. 386 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 4: To just just use executive power to do X y Z. 387 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 2: And I think out of this frustration with the fact 388 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 2: that votes are being suppressed and then even when you know, 389 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 2: you do kind of elect someone that you think is 390 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 2: going to pass different palsy. Not that I mean I'm 391 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 2: under no, I was not, like I was not excited 392 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 2: to vote for, but like that, it's it's difficult to 393 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,719 Speaker 2: get any kind of significant change past, right, and then 394 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 2: that there's this sense of, oh, well, who knows if 395 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 2: this will stick, because in three years time someone else 396 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: will come in and change it back. I think people 397 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 2: are yeah, I just. 398 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 4: I just yeah. 399 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: I don't really see how that continues without some kind 400 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: of boiling point and then restructuring of some kind. 401 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not, it's not. We don't live in a democracy. 402 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 3: Like the thing. The thing about the kind of common 403 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 3: liberal story around this that I get incredibly frustrated with 404 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 3: is that and this gets to sort of where I'd 405 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 3: like the conversation to go, and where I'm you know, 406 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 3: only beginning to try to figure out how to bring 407 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 3: it there. But you know where I think it needs 408 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 3: to go is we cannot simply make this about defending 409 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 3: the existing constitutional order, because it's precisely the existing constitutional 410 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 3: order that was failing that led us to this point. 411 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 3: Trump is not aberrant in that respect. He is. Actually 412 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 3: there's a way in which you could argue he is. 413 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 3: He is a defender of the underlying structures of the 414 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 3: constitution right they serve him. So despite his willingness to 415 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 3: get rid of the parts of the constitution that don't 416 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 3: benefit him, he doesn't want to change the underlying political 417 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 3: arrangements because they're good for Republicans. So I and like 418 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 3: you said, I mean, like in most other countries, the 419 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 3: way that democracy works, the way it's supposed to work, 420 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 3: is you vote for a new government. The government passes 421 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 3: the laws based on what they said they were going 422 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 3: to do in the election. Then voters get to decide 423 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 3: did that work for us? And depending on whether it 424 00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 3: did or it didn't, they get rid of the people 425 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 3: in power, or they give them more opportunities to do 426 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 3: other things that they promise that they're going to do. 427 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 3: In our system, none of it works like that. People, 428 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 3: when you elect a new government, no matter what they 429 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 3: ran on. They probably can't actually do the thing that 430 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 3: they said that they were going to do. And it's 431 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 3: not because they weren't super committed to it or that 432 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 3: they don't really believe in it or whatever. It's because 433 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 3: literally our institutions make it impossible for them to do that. 434 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 3: And then people get mad because stuff isn't happening, because 435 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 3: things are going bad, and our system makes it damn 436 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 3: near impossible to figure out whose fault that is right, 437 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 3: whose fault is it that build back better got watered down? 438 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 3: I mean, I follow this stuff super closely, about as 439 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 3: closely as anybody could, and I get confused sometimes. I 440 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 3: can't imagine how working class people who don't follow politics 441 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 3: that closely and just want to understand what our politics 442 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 3: to do more to help people like them, why they don't. 443 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: They can't tell who's that fault for these things, who 444 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 3: they should be angry at, who they should reelect. It 445 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 3: doesn't make any sense. So the accountability mechanism is completely broken. 446 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 3: And to your point about wanting Biden to take more, 447 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 3: to just do more, this is the trajectory of the 448 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 3: past forty years. Is the Congress is less and less 449 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 3: able to pass laws, and so what that means of 450 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 3: the presidency is it has to just do more, do 451 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 3: more through executive action, do more through what existing authorities 452 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 3: it already has. And some people talk about that in 453 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 3: terms of the imperial presidency, and it is. It is, 454 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 3: It is dangerous, and it is part of it is 455 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 3: one of the many threads leading us towards authoritarianism. But 456 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 3: it needs to be seen as a result of the 457 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 3: failure of Congress to govern. And Congress's failure is again 458 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 3: not simply the result of kind of people with bad 459 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 3: ideas or insufficient will, but the result of a political 460 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 3: system that is this Rube Goldberg device that simply can't 461 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 3: sustain itself. And I think it's really important here also 462 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 3: to give some credence to the founders while also recognizing 463 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 3: just what the hell we're talking about here. Like these 464 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 3: guys were, it was the first modern republican democracy in 465 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 3: the world. They had no examples to draw from, and 466 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 3: they had a lot of beliefs that now we would 467 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 3: think of as aberrant, and they didn't have anything to 468 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 3: compare themselves to. And so I think there's a way 469 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 3: that we can come down on the Constitution and the 470 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 3: kind of original political institutions of the country in a 471 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 3: way that both recognizes that there were real innovations and 472 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 3: real leaps forward for human liberation, while not ignoring the 473 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 3: reality that many of these people were slave holders, and that, 474 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 3: in a very practical sense, that the institutions that they 475 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 3: created were the result of compromises with the power of slaveholders, 476 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 3: and that those compromises still live with us today. That 477 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 3: we can kind of not throw out the baby with 478 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 3: the bathwater, like constitutional democracy is still worth fighting for, 479 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 3: and many of the ideals that we consider to be, 480 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 3: you know, American ideals are worth fighting for. But I 481 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 3: would argue that the spirit of the founders would augur 482 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 3: in favor of us creating a new constitution today in 483 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 3: the same way that they did and not paying fealty 484 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 3: to the work of long dead men who don't understand 485 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 3: the world that we live in today. So I think 486 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 3: we can talk more about this some other time. But 487 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 3: I think that trying to imagine what it would look 488 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 3: like to create a new constitution is not as impossible 489 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 3: as people think. Again, because the United States is a country, 490 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 3: and other countries have constitutions that are significantly better than 491 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 3: the United States. 492 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 4: And that are significantly more flexible. Like other countries change 493 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 4: and update their constitutions all the time, and it like 494 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 4: never happens here. 495 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, right, not only not only I think that's 496 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 3: so key. We not only do we have a kind 497 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 3: of uniquely badly designed political system, but we also have 498 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 3: one of, if not the hardest constitution to change. So 499 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 3: it's this. It's like, imagine if you had the oldest, 500 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 3: like the literally the first indoor plumbing system that was 501 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 3: ever created in the world, and you could never change it. 502 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 3: You'd be like, well, this house is pretty nice, but 503 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 3: holy shit, it's always flooding and leaking and maybe it's 504 00:29:42,440 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 3: just time for a new plumbing system. 505 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. Thanks as always for joining us. 506 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with another bonus episode and 507 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: back with part two of our season on the gas 508 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: industry just as soon as we can wrap it up, 509 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: hopefully by the end of this month, but it might 510 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: be a little bit later, just depending on you know, 511 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: this never ending pandemic. Do you want to give a 512 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: shout out to our latest Patreon supporters, Tanna Morgan, Katie 513 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: will Gollihu, Maureen de com and Gerhardt le Abracadabra Daniel Stubbs, 514 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: Sarah Ventry, Robbie Michelson, Tam vou Zane, Selvin's Wryder, Bergrad, 515 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: Philip Bell, Courtney McNaught, and Rebecca Schwartz. That support and 516 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: the support of our many other patrons is absolutely critical 517 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: to the continuation of this podcast. If you would like 518 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 1: to support our work and get access to ad free episodes, 519 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: bonus content, and ex exclusive merge while doing so, please 520 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: check out patreon dot com. Slash Drilled. Drilled is an 521 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: original production of the Critical Frequency podcast network. Music This 522 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: Week is by Martin Wissenberg. The show is written, reported, 523 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: and produced by me Amy westerveldt Our producer is Jules Bradley, 524 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: Audio engineering by Peter Duff. Our First Amendment Attorney is 525 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: James Wheaton of the First Amendment Project. Thanks again for 526 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: listening and we'll see you next week.