1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. This 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: is a secret of my own. My father has been 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: helping me write these pages in my dreams. My father 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: stands in our house. It is not burned or blackened 5 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: or infelicitous. No melted pools of television screens. Not yet. 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: My rocking horse is still there, rocking. The air is clear, 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: the dining room table shines. It's all in one piece, 8 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: this house the way I've always imagined it could be. 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: So is my father. Sometimes he says, the things I wrote, 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: the way I wrote them. We play out the scenes, 11 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: we have our script. Other Times he says, no, not quite, 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: it didn't happen like that. My dead father is always moving. 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: I follow him. I'm Danny Shapiro. And this is family secrets, 14 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 15 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 16 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: Have come to think of family secrets sort of like ghosts. 17 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: A family sits at the dinner table, and the ghosts 18 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: hover nearby. A family falls asleep at night, and the 19 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: ghosts linger in doorways, pace the halls. They make a 20 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: cup of coffee in the kitchen. These ghosts are invisible, 21 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: of course, but they're very powerful. In fact, they're all 22 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: the more powerful precisely because they're invisible. My guest today 23 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: is t Kira Madden. Tikira is a supremely gifted young 24 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: writer whose essential piercing human nous shows up on every 25 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: page of her debut memoir, Long Live the Tribe of 26 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: Fatherless Girls. When I first read Tikira's work, I knew 27 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: that I had to have her on family secrets. Tikira 28 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: grew up in a family shaped by its secrets and ghosts, 29 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: and therefore she herself was formed by all she did 30 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: not know, all her parents kept from her, from each other, 31 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: and from themselves. This is a story about addiction, shame, 32 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: a couple of world rocking DNA discoveries, and thrumming under 33 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: all of it, a family's love for one another. Where 34 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: does secrets go when they're stuffed away? We're about to 35 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: find out. We began, as I often do, by my 36 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: asking Tikira to tell me about the landscape of her childhood. 37 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: I think my childhood always felt like an adventure. I 38 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: think that's the word I would use. That I didn't 39 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: understand the dynamic of parents and child, and it was 40 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: more like we were all on a team together, the 41 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: three of us, me and my mother and my father. 42 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: And there were always fights. There were always conflicts outside, 43 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: conflicts inside conflicts, but we were always running away or 44 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: in a sense of adventure. My mother and I were 45 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: always you know, going in the car to find my 46 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: father at whatever bar or strip club he was in, 47 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: and we never knew what we would find there at 48 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: three in the morning. Um. Where I was going on 49 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: separate adventures with my father to bars, to baseball games, 50 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: two clubs, to Las Vegas. Um. But the three of 51 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: us always we had a team. Um. We had a 52 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: team and a loyalty that I think doesn't make sense 53 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: to people now, but it was. It was just implicit. 54 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: We were a team always. And how old were you 55 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: when you were going to bars and you know, out 56 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: at three in the morning looking for your dad or 57 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: going to Vegas as early as I can remember, yeah, 58 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: um My, my very earliest memories, it was my my 59 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: parents wedding and being there and after that just these 60 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: wild apartments we lived in the wild characters who would 61 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: come in and out. Um, and I very distinctly even 62 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: have memories in a stroller going through some of these 63 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: experiences and just my very earliest memories going in my 64 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: mother's car to these clubs and meeting these strippers outside 65 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: the car, and at some points having golf clubs and 66 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: baseball bats being swung at car windows and shattering, and 67 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: it was all very exciting to me. Well, that's so 68 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: interesting because the fact that you have memories from the stroller, 69 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: if it had been seriously traumatic for you, um most 70 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: likely would have blocked them out. It doesn't surprise me. 71 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: I guess that you're saying that there was something, yeah, exciting. 72 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: I think, in a way exciting. I didn't understand. My 73 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: mind wasn't then yet molded into these false binaries of good, bad, sober, drunk. 74 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: I didn't have those understandings. It didn't feel unsafe to know. 75 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: Everything was just kind of electric and arousing and exciting 76 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: in my early mind. I think. So, you're father was 77 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:21,679 Speaker 1: in another family, in another relationship when you were very small. Yes, 78 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: he was married to another woman when I was born, 79 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: and he had two sons with that woman, which I 80 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: didn't understand, of course, until a little bit later. Was 81 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: that something that you knew as you were growing up 82 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: as a toddler? He was the shadowy figure. He was 83 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: just the smell of cigarettes and gold and cash. And 84 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: that's who my father was, this kind of gravelly voice 85 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: figure in my house. I always knew there was this 86 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: other family. My father. Um. He sat me and my 87 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: brother's down when we were younger. My my brothers were 88 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: at that point teenagers and I was a toddler, and 89 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: he explained to all of us that we were actually siblings. 90 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: And I hadn't realized before that point that I was 91 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: just supposedly my mother's kid. I was just a kid 92 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: who was around UM. So I had a sense of 93 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: them as my family or another family, but I didn't 94 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: understand what that meant. And I understood their photos in 95 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: my father's wallet, for example, and seeing similarities, but you know, 96 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: at that point, biology, genetics, um connection, those things didn't 97 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: quite make sense. Well, it sounds like you were left 98 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: to figure it out for yourself a bit. Absolutely. This 99 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: is something that comes up a lot in family secrets, 100 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: the sense of having been a salution as a child. 101 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,239 Speaker 1: So often we were left to our own devices, trying 102 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: to put together the pieces of our families, attempting to 103 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: understand what didn't add up. Our families are all we 104 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: know as children, we feel secrets as an ache, a strangeness, 105 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: or even internalize them as self loathing when we don't 106 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: understand why we feel the way we do. Could you 107 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: describe your mother a little bit? Wild? Is the word 108 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: I would use, and I think that's the word many 109 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: people would use who have met her. Daring, wild, beautiful, electric, 110 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: just a flash of light in any room. My book 111 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: opens with a scene of her shooting a man out 112 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: our window, and that's I think very true to her 113 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: character and why I chose to open her in that way, 114 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: because she's fiercely protective, no boundaries, no filter, She's she's 115 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: just a force. She still is. One of the things 116 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: that really struck me in your book is the way 117 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: in which you had to educate the adults around you 118 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: in the fact that you were a child. There's a 119 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: moment your father has been violent with your mother, and 120 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: it's not the first time, but it's the worst time, 121 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: and she gathers you and you get into the car 122 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: and she hands you a map and she says, find 123 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: the best root out of here. And that moment struck 124 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: me for a lot of reasons, because that felt like 125 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: a metaphor in a way for both for your book 126 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: and for your life, which is you did find the 127 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: best root out of there. How old were you in 128 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: that in that moment? I was in the sixth grade, right, 129 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: and your mother was handing you a map and say saying, like, 130 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, figure it out. Yes, I was very good 131 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: at maps at that point because of so many instances 132 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: of this. There have been many occasions with using maps 133 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: trying to get out of certain situations. Sure, as an 134 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: only child myself, I'm well acquainted with the preternaturally adult 135 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: feeling that many only children experience. At the same time, 136 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: there's also the feeling that the mom, dad, and kid 137 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: are part of a tight little trio, as opposed to 138 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: enlarger families where children banned together in solidarity against the adults. 139 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: Perhaps that's part of the reason why Tikira writes so 140 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: lovingly about both her parents and almost romantically about her 141 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: beginnings with them. It still feels true to me, and 142 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: I think people often say, you know, parents, we do 143 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: the best we can, or they did the best we could. 144 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: I think about that a lot, and I think the 145 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: easier answer would be to always say, yes, my parents 146 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 1: did the best they could. But I'm not sure if 147 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: that's that was always the case, and I'm not sure 148 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: it even matters, because maybe sometimes you know, my father 149 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: didn't do the best he could, but that's okay. Like, 150 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: there's a life of being a father and the life 151 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 1: of being a person in the world. And I think 152 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: through reflection and after his death, I start it to 153 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: understand those two versions and multiplicities of so many versions 154 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: of who a person can be. That the lens of 155 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: just a father is in some ways an unfair lens, 156 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 1: and the lens of just mother, like that scope is 157 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: too small. I had to think about how they ended 158 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: up the way they were um to my to my 159 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: limited knowledge, of course, and acknowledge the failure that I 160 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: can't break away from that limited scope of my own 161 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: singular experiences. As you've said, Danny, and some of your work, 162 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: there's a moment where you describe hearing the words addict, 163 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: you know, or crackhead or whatever the language was being used. 164 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: Someone was describing your parents in those ways, and you 165 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: had never put language to that at all. Yes, Yes, 166 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: is that something you would think of as having been 167 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: secret in your childhood or was that it didn't seem 168 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 1: to me that ways seemed like they were pretty out 169 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: there with their addictions, that that wasn't something they were 170 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: hiding from you or from the world. Speaking to children 171 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: of addicts, I see and I hear that a lot, 172 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: that there's there's just no vocabulary. As a child, in 173 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: the absence of a vocabulary, Takira makes up a new 174 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: language with phrases that render her parents addiction in terms 175 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: she can understand. When her parents are high, she calls 176 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: them sleepy boy and sleepy girl. It wasn't until I 177 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: started seeing, you know, commercials about drugs and Whitney Houston 178 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: on the news, being caught and seeing those familiar objects, 179 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: and then hearing the words from other people from media 180 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: that I started putting together what was actually going on. 181 00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 1: Finding and knowing the language and labeling it is something 182 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: that's so powerful. I'm thinking of a previous episode of 183 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: Family Secrets where my guest Debbie Millman, who was being 184 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: abused by her stepfather, cuts out a clipping from an 185 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: Ann Lander's column in which someone writes to a Landers 186 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: about being abused, and for the first time she thinks, 187 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: a I'm not the only person in the entire world 188 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: that's happened to and be this is a thing, there's 189 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: a there's a name for it exists. That episode really 190 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: resonated with me, and she kept it under her pillowcase 191 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: or under a mattress, and I kept a book by 192 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: Drew Barrymore under my pillowcase, and I remember hearing that 193 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: on that episode and um sharing that experience that I 194 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: There was this ghost written eighties book called Little Girl Lost, 195 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: which was Drew Barrymore's early memoir. And it wasn't until 196 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 1: I read that book that was the first it just 197 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: throttled me. That was the first sense of someone else 198 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: has parent like this. In some way, these behaviors are mirrored. 199 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: It's not just me in the world, because before you 200 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: understand addiction of course as a kid, or abuse of 201 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: any kind, you think that this is only happening to me. 202 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: This couldn't possibly be happening to anyone else in the world. 203 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: And until I read Drew Barrymore, of all of all books, 204 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: of all stories, this kind of gossipy Hollywood book, did 205 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: I realize, Oh wow, her her father is trying to 206 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: drink gasoline. My father tries to drink gasoline. It's not 207 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: just me, me and Drew Barrymore. It still wasn't plural, 208 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: but it was me and Drew Barrymore had the secret 209 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: from the rest of the world. We're going to take 210 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: a quick break her parents. Addiction isn't the only secret 211 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: Tiakia learns to keep. When she's in middle school, Tika 212 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: begins an online relationship with a senior boy in her 213 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: high school who eventually asks her to meet him at 214 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: the local shopping mall. Love was violence, Love was desperate um, 215 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: love was forced, and it was forceful. And so you know, 216 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: at that time, I was I was a middle school girl. 217 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: I was talking to a senior from my high school 218 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: on the internet. I hadn't met him in real life, 219 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: and he wanted me to meet him at a shopping mall. 220 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: And he showed up with another senior in the car, 221 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: and the sexual assault. Sexual assault occurred at the shopping mall. 222 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: And I didn't have I didn't have any sort of 223 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: vocabulary for what that meant. M I truly did feel 224 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: that it was love, because he had used that word 225 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: with me as well. I think I might love you. 226 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm always trying to write into questions of you know, 227 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: how could things have gone differently had I told my father, 228 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: perhaps we could have had such a different relationship. Perhaps 229 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: we could have um just broken the secrecy in some way. 230 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: Why do you think you didn't, I think because of 231 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: my own confusion of what it was. Because I always 232 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: wanted clarity, I always wanted wisdom. I wanted to be 233 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: able to explain something, and this, that occurrence was something 234 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: I could never explain. When I left them all that 235 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: day and my parents picked me up, they took me 236 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: to a restaurant, and at the restaurant, I went to 237 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: the bathroom, and I still remember the stall I was 238 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: in at the exact restaurant, and I fell to the 239 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: floor and I was just curled up in a ball, weeping, 240 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: And in my mind I felt what had just happened 241 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: was something great and womanly and beautiful, and it was 242 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: love and this was sex, and but my body knew 243 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: the difference. And that's something I think about to this day, 244 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: that the body knows even before we do sometimes. But 245 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: I also think I just didn't want to it into 246 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: trouble for getting in cars with boys, of course, but 247 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: I wish I wish I did. In some ways, I 248 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: also know it would hurt him a great deal of 249 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: someone who was very protective over me. But as you 250 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: as you've described in your work, how a family and 251 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: a room can crackle with secrecy, I think is the 252 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: word you use, and that's definitely something I felt my 253 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: whole life, this crackling secrecy. I described my story in 254 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: this book almost as a Russian doll, but the whole 255 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: thing Russian dolled on me. Every single doll I opened, 256 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: there was another one waiting, and that's not something I expected. 257 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: And even my mother, when confronted with these family secrets, 258 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: she described them as boxes. In the same way that 259 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: I think about opening them. She described as the boxes 260 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: all being closed. She closed them up, she kept them elsewhere. 261 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: She was so great and still is at compartmentalizing, and 262 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: I think that's really common. And I was really struck 263 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: by the end of your book how you describe how 264 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: other people it's like they didn't consider the consequences. And 265 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: for us, that's all we're thinking about is consequence and 266 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: results and what happens. And for some people just doesn't 267 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: cross their mind because they're so good at compartmentalizing what 268 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 1: they've done, their actions, their memories, the things that live 269 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: in their own bodies. Remember earlier when I mentioned that 270 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: DNA is part of this story. Well, I'd say it's 271 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: more than part of this story. When Tikira is twenty 272 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: seven years old, she's given a d n A test 273 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: as a Christmas gift, just as happens in millions of 274 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: families each year. And this is the key to those 275 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: tightly sealed boxes, the beginning of the end of the 276 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: secrets that had thrumbed in the deepest interior of the 277 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: Madden family. And it was only because my father passed 278 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: away and I was interested in kind of building this 279 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: family tree um. I was just kind of spooked by 280 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: that death of Oh. I want to gather as much 281 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: information as I can while I still have the opportunity 282 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: to do so. So I was interested in this. When 283 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: my mother knew about the test when she saw the 284 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: box and I said I would do it, there was 285 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: no reaction, not even a flinch, not there was no 286 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: fear in her face about it. It was a curious 287 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: thing to her. Why would you want to do that? 288 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 1: What could you want to know? That's how deep that 289 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: box was, That's how tightly it was closed. So I 290 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: took the test um. Like your story, it didn't feel 291 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: urgent in any way. I had this kind of running 292 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: joke in my head, because I'm always building story in 293 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: my head of like what if I find out my 294 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: father is not my father because he's just died, wouldn't 295 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: that be a twist? And so I was almost preparing 296 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: myself for this to be a big secret, like what 297 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: if I find out because I look nothing like my father, 298 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: I look Chinese and and like my mother. Um, my 299 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: father was you know, blue eyes, blonde hair. So that 300 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: was the running joke. What if I found out after 301 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: he died, after all this grief, through this grief, if 302 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: I found out there wasn't a connection the way people 303 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: had joked about my whole life. And I opened the 304 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: results and I don't find that. I find that I'm 305 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: exactly what I've been told. I am. The map glows 306 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: and all the places I would expect it to glow, Jewish, Hawaiian, Chinese, Irish, 307 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: Eastern European, jew Um, nothing's unexpected. And I said, Okay, 308 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: my mother's my mother, my father's my father. That was fun. 309 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: And it took a while to even find that other 310 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: page on ancestry that shows you the connections, that shows 311 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: you the people who have also taken the test, And 312 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,479 Speaker 1: I see this icon of a woman who in a 313 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 1: very tiny maybe half an inch icon has dark hair, 314 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: and when I when I opened her picture, the picture 315 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: doesn't grow, but I can see that she's also Hawaiian 316 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: and Chinese, so I know it's from my mother's side, 317 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: which shocks me, as is so often the case when 318 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: people receive unexpected results from a DNA test. Tikira first 319 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: wonders about the test accuracy. She figures that this mystery 320 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: person might be a third or fourth cousin, or maybe 321 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: no relation at all, but she does reach out to 322 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: her and when this maybe cousin, maybe not cousin connects, 323 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: her area code is nine five four, the same area 324 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: code as tikiras from South Florida, and I thought, how 325 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: could I have a cousin who lives where I grew up? 326 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: That doesn't make sense to me. And that's when the 327 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: whole thing started to That was my big tip off. 328 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: I guess, how could that be the same area code 329 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: in the whole world. That's not a third or fourth cousin, Like, 330 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: something's going on here. So Tikira calls the number and 331 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: the two women begin to speak. At first, Tikira thinks 332 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: that maybe this woman is an aunt. After all, she's 333 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: throughteen years older than Tikira. But that isn't what's going 334 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: on at all. This woman with whom Tikira shares a 335 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: significant amount of d n A, is not an aunt. 336 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: She's not a cousin. She's ti Kira's half sister. I 337 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: was saying, I think we are related. I think you 338 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: could be my aunt. Um, this is what my grandfather 339 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: was like he passed away. And she's saying, please listen, 340 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: please help me. I have clues. I have I have 341 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: major clues. All I know is that I was born 342 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: on seven eleven, July eleven, and that's my mother's lucky number. 343 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: And I knew as soon as she said seven eleven, 344 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: which is how my mom says. It's still it's still 345 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: her her pass code on her phone, her alarm code, 346 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: it's everything. I sort of stopped in my tracks, and 347 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: she said, I also think her first name is and 348 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: she says my mother's first name, and the whole world 349 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: is sort of stopped. It really felt true and accurate 350 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: in that moment. Everything froze um, but I couldn't make 351 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: sense of this in any way. It still felt like 352 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: a mistake, until, of course I spoke to my mother. 353 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: Your mother put it in a box, you know, very 354 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: very buried, tightly sealed box. And yet at the same time, 355 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: your sister's half sister's birthdate was her code and her 356 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: lucky number. Yes, that's fascinating because these boxes are really interesting, right, 357 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: because she probably did not walk around with that kind 358 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 1: of consciousness about that. It's just simply seven eleven. It's 359 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: my lucky number. That's what makes me feel. That's just 360 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: part of my idea entity. Sure, but in fact she 361 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: was walking around with that being her child's yes, birth date, 362 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: two lucky numbers. Tikira's mother doesn't just have one lucky number, 363 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: seven eleven. She has a second one connected to another secret, 364 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: another ghost. We're going to take a quick break. So 365 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: Tikira now knows that her mother had given birth to 366 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: a child thirteen years before she was born. That put 367 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: her mother as a fifteen year old girl who had 368 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: given up a baby for adoption. What was your mother's 369 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: reaction like when you um when you did go to 370 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: her and say I've discovered this, It was the most 371 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: bizarre moment. She was completely throttled back in time and 372 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: in that moment when I when I mentioned it is 373 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: as delicately as I could. All I had to do 374 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: was say her birthday, that I took the test, I 375 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: got the results. There was someone with the birthday seven eleven. 376 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: And she was so throttled in that moment that she 377 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: believed my father was still alive. And that was her 378 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: first concern was your father doesn't know. Your father doesn't know. 379 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: What am I going to tell him? And I said, 380 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: Dad's not here. But that's how far back she was 381 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: throttled in that moment. She was so just, And that's 382 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: not like my mom. My mom is very to her 383 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: fault in a way, always living in the present moment, 384 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: always very present um. But she was so somewhere else. 385 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: And I knew in that moment, wherever she was um 386 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: as she was saying these things and closing her eyes 387 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: and drinking water, that I could never reach wherever it 388 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: was she she was living in that moment, that there 389 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: was a part of her, so many parts of her 390 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: I will never know, and I don't think it ever 391 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: occurred to me until that moment. Secrets begets secrets begets secrets. 392 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: That is just how secrets work. Their viral contagious A 393 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: married couple who are addict and alcoholics circle and circle 394 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: around the unsaid, the hidden. Their lives are formed by 395 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: what they don't speak of, what they keep from one another, 396 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: And their daughter's life is formed by all that silence 397 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: and fear and shame. Does it surprise you that she 398 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: never told your dad? It did surprise me, knowing the 399 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: full story and having a better understanding of my mother 400 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: and my father and their secrecy. Now now it doesn't 401 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: surprise me in that moment of Corso's how could you 402 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: have not told me? How could you have not told dad? 403 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: How could that be? How is that possible? So your 404 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: mother has a secret from your father, Your mother and 405 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: father have secrets from you, and then your mother and 406 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: father have a secret together. Yes, but remember that ti 407 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: Kira's mom has not one, but two lucky numbers. One 408 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: of those lucky numbers represents the birth of the baby 409 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: she gave up for adoption as a teenager. What can 410 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: the other lucky number represent? What else could possibly be 411 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: so huge and important? Tikira meets her new half sister 412 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: and they begin to form a relationship. It's a revelation, 413 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: after a lifetime as an only child, to have this 414 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: new person in her life. Someone she describes in loving terms. 415 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: It feels for a while like a happy ending, a 416 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: perfect ending, and opening up and understanding finally of the 417 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: secret that had formed so much of her family's life. 418 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: But then it turns out that there's more, There's much, 419 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: much more. Just over a year later, I hear from 420 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: my fiance, of all people, um, that she overheard something 421 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: from other members in my family. And I said, what 422 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: did you What did you overhear? And she said, they said, 423 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: I'm so happy she found her sister, but what about 424 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: her brother? And I said, what are you talking about? 425 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: And she said I heard it. And I said, you, 426 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: miss you misunderstood. You didn't hear, You didn't hear correctly, 427 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: And she said, no, I heard. I heard it very clear. 428 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: And I I confronted them and I had them repeat it, 429 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: and I got more information. There is a brother. And 430 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: then I'm thinking, okay, it's my dad's turn. This has 431 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: got to be my dad's child. And she said he's 432 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: your full brother. And I said okay, and I'm doing 433 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,719 Speaker 1: the timeline when could this have happened? And then she 434 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: says he's younger than you. And that was Um. It 435 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: was the complete opposite reaction. I felt with my sister, 436 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: with my sister, and immediately as soon as the shock subsided, 437 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: it just felt like this enormous gift, just the most 438 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: beautiful thing that could have happened to me, and so serendipitously, 439 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: so soon after my father passed away, that I would 440 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: lose the most important person to me and then find 441 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: a sister as someone who grew up alone. And when 442 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: I heard this, it felt the opposite. It felt like 443 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: I've never felt such anger and sadness and rage in 444 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: my entire life. I've always said, considering my father has 445 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: such rage in him, and my mother too, Let's take 446 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: a moment to walk through this more slowly. Tikira, raised 447 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: as an only child, part of the tight little tree 448 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: with her two complicated parents, actually is one of three children. 449 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: Her mother had a child as a teenager. That was 450 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: a huge revelation, but this this meant that her two parents, 451 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: together when she was a very young child, had another child, 452 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: a brother, who they gave up for adoption. I was 453 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: so angry, and I think processing that, I think I 454 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: was so angry that my father was gone, and I 455 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: knew I could never ask the questions, and I knew 456 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: I just felt like I've already gone through this. I 457 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: can't believe I'm going through this again, and I can't 458 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: believe it's more intense. It's a full sibling, it's my 459 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: father's and I can't talk to my father. I was 460 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: able to get all the answers from my mother about 461 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: my sister, but I knew this was unreachable in a 462 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: different way. And unlike ancestry, I had no connection to 463 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: find this brother, my full brother, the only the full 464 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: sibling I have in the world, the person who shares 465 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: more DNA with me than anyone in the world. I 466 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: had no lead of any kind, and that infuriated me, 467 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: and I felt deceived um And when I called a 468 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: family member that night and asked if it was true, 469 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: and she told me, and I soon realized everybody knew. 470 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: That was the hardest part, that it felt like this 471 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: conspiracy in a way to keep this from me. How 472 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: old were you and your mother was pregnant one one 473 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: and a half. And there's a moment I believe correct 474 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, where someone tells you they sent 475 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: you away, right like during during that period of time 476 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: you went to Disney. Disney, I'm sorry, Disney that's what 477 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: I thought, didn't but you were like one and a 478 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: half years old. Yeah, I still haven't taken my son 479 00:30:54,200 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: to Disney, totally deprived. It's great. So then what happens 480 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: with your with your brother? It's still the unknown. Yeah, 481 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: it's still the unknown, and I mean, we'll see. What 482 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: I've tried to embrace in the book is the unknown 483 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: where the unfinished story is the story that we don't 484 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: have the perfect plot arc that we always want, and 485 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm still trying to figure out what that story looks 486 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: like with my brother. Sometimes the unfinished story is the story. 487 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: Here's t Kira reading a passage from her beautiful book, 488 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: how Alma Kula is a place in the afterworld in 489 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: which all of one's ancestors are waiting. I always liked 490 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: this legend best, the idea of this place where all 491 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: family ties remain solid, intact, or nothing on earth ever mattered. 492 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: It is the place in which all family members are reunited, 493 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: and I like to imagine that everyone shows up a young, healthy, 494 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: so much bright life in the face, and all the 495 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: realms of heaven and hell. Al Amakua is the most 496 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: desired among the people of Hawaii. Once the family is reunited. 497 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: Each spirit is encouraged to visit their own idea of home. 498 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: Home can be in the depths of the sea, in 499 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: the tree tops, a spirit may choose their grandmother's lap 500 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: in her rocking chair. The sour smell of malasadas. Ancient 501 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: legend describes it as the place of your greatest responsibility. 502 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: Others define it as returning to one's rightful place or 503 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: one's greatest duty. The Hawaiian word for this is kolianna 504 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: many Thanks to t Kira Madden, you can find out 505 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: more about her debut memoir, Long Live the Tribe of 506 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: Fatherless Girls at t Kira Madden dot com. Family Secrets 507 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: is an I Heart media production. Dylan Fagan is a 508 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: supervising producer, Lowell Brolante is the audio engineer, and Julie 509 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: Douglas is the executive producer. If you have a family 510 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: secret you'd like to share, you can get in touch 511 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: with us at listener mail at Family Secrets podcast dot com, 512 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: and you can also find us on Instagram at Danny Writer, 513 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: and Facebook at Family Secrets Pod and Twitter at fami 514 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: Secrets Pod. For more about my book Inheritance, visit Danny 515 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: Shapiro dot com For more podcasts. For my heart Radio, 516 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 517 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.