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Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making

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Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know

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Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news

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Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is

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Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier,

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Speaker 1: and more trustworthy mainstream by becoming a Breaking Points Premium

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Speaker 1: member today at breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money

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Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and

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Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage

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Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most

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Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for?

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Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out. Quite

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Speaker 1: a notable moment over on CNBC as Jim Kramer got

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Speaker 1: to pick so wrong that he had to, with quite

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Speaker 1: a bit of emotion in his voice, admit that he

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Speaker 1: was wrong. I mean, have we ever seen this before?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. This was specifically on his urging his

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Speaker 1: audience to go ahead and buy into Meta, which then

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Speaker 1: proceeded to have a share his drop twenty four percent

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Speaker 1: in a single day. Let's listen to how he explained

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Speaker 1: that massiveness. Yeah, let me say this about I made

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Speaker 1: a mistake here. I was wrong. I trusted this management

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Speaker 1: team that was ill advised. You for sure is extraordinary,

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Speaker 1: and I apologize. Okay, oh man, that's brtal. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: trusted this management team. I was advised. I feel I

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Speaker 1: know what it's like to eat crow on camera. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you should do it. You should do it more often. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you'll get more use to it. I mean. But he's

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Speaker 1: definitely living up to his reputation here, and there's a

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Speaker 1: reverse Kreamer etia for some reason, right, And that's that's

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Speaker 1: the issue with the entire game, with all the hype

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Speaker 1: around the entire we you know, in another life, like

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Speaker 1: doing segments like a BP style takedown of financial media

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Speaker 1: would also do quite well. Yeah, just because if anyway,

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Speaker 1: they're even more crazy and insulated from a lot of

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Speaker 1: criticism because it's just such a small audience. But for

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Speaker 1: those of us who pay attention, clearly like this is

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Speaker 1: not the first time that he's gotten something wrong in

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Speaker 1: a certain direction. I'll never forget that one clip of

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Speaker 1: like him and Johnson's honestly uncomfortable where he basically is

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Speaker 1: like forced to apologize by John Stewart on his own show.

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Speaker 1: It's extraordinary, extraordinary. I encourage people to go and watch it.

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Speaker 1: But actually, on the underlying question you and I were

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Speaker 1: talking about this today, I don't know what to think

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Speaker 1: about Zuckerberg long term. Yeah, over the long term. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I was looking at an analysis that Facebook current valuation

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Speaker 1: at their stock price is the same as when they

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Speaker 1: had one tenth of the same revenue as a company. Now,

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Speaker 1: maybe the valuation was wrong when it had one tenth

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Speaker 1: as opposed to today with meta under one hundred. But

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Speaker 1: look like Zuck has been right about every major business

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Speaker 1: decision of the day, you know of literally since he

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Speaker 1: ran the company. Don't sell to Yahoo, buy Instagram, buy WhatsApp,

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Speaker 1: go all in on mobile news feed. Over that, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the only thing you could argue that you got wrong

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Speaker 1: is content moderation. But like even that doesn't really have

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Speaker 1: much of a business impact. So I remain mystified. To

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Speaker 1: me the whole metaverse thing, Like I don't see it,

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Speaker 1: but I wouldn't have seen Instagram, you know, at a billion,

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Speaker 1: So I think, okay, it's helpful to say the reason

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Speaker 1: why the stock fell off a cliff on this day,

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Speaker 1: twenty four percent plunged twenty four percent to the lowest

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Speaker 1: price is twenty sixteen. The Facebook reported Meta reported its

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Speaker 1: second straight quarterly decline. Their Meta Reality Labs division, which

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Speaker 1: is the thing you're talking about, the Metaverse houses their

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Speaker 1: VR headsets, lost over nine billion dollars in the first

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Speaker 1: three quarters. And so, I mean, he really is betting.

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Speaker 1: There's a reason he renamed it meta. He is betting

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Speaker 1: on the Metaverse. Now, what I would say is different

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Speaker 1: from the other things that you mentioned in Projector, like

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Speaker 1: the acquisition of Instagram, some of WhatsApp and some of

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Speaker 1: the other acquisitions, is that was seeing something that was

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Speaker 1: already successful and acquiring it. Versus with the Metaverse, he's

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Speaker 1: really trying to build an engineer something from scratch. Now

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Speaker 1: he's also acquiring some other pieces to fit into that world.

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Speaker 1: But that's very different from what they've done before so far.

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Speaker 1: Even people even like you know, young people who are

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Speaker 1: more into the virtual reality or more in gaming or whatever,

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Speaker 1: even they are like, this is trash. There's no one here.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to navigate. It makes me sick and queasy

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Speaker 1: to stay in here, and it's hard to really understand.

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Speaker 1: You know. His vision is that we're going to be

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Speaker 1: doing instead of zoom calls that will all like jump

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Speaker 1: into the metaverse to do our next business meeting. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to see what that really adds over the technology

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Speaker 1: that already exists. So I continue to be very skeptical

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Speaker 1: that the metaverse is really the next big thing. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I've got my son who's nine,

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Speaker 1: super super like addicted to his freaking computer roadblocks other

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Speaker 1: game called BTD six that he's really into, and you know,

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Speaker 1: he's not really interested in being in those worlds in

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Speaker 1: a way other than what he already is in those worlds.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know. I could be totally wrong. I

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Speaker 1: could be showing my age here all of those things.

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Speaker 1: But I do think the fact that Zuck was good

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Speaker 1: on those previous business acquisition decisions does not necessarily translate

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Speaker 1: to building his own world from scratch. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he bet the house several times, he doubled down,

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Speaker 1: he's always won. That being said, it hasn't been that

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Speaker 1: long of a time. Again, I don't see it. I

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Speaker 1: would totally bet against the metaverse, but yeah, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have been on a lot of Technolo TikTok. I would

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Speaker 1: have told you that was the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people like it, so I don't know, I'm

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Speaker 1: curious in terms of the long term viability, but clearly

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Speaker 1: he sees something. He burned nine billion dollars in money

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Speaker 1: on R and D in the VR department. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: they can't even get their own employees to use it.

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Speaker 1: But you know, with this type of nascent tech, like

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Speaker 1: you're wrong until you're right. Yeah, sometimes if you do

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Speaker 1: nail it likes. The latest reporting on the Metaverse that

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Speaker 1: I read, which was quite recent, was that they had

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Speaker 1: some of their reporters actually go and be in the Metaverse.

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Speaker 1: Experience was terrible. They couldn't even find anyone like to

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Speaker 1: talk to. It was difficult to navigate. And then they

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Speaker 1: also got some leak documents about how even internally, as

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Speaker 1: you said, their own staff doesn't use it. And so

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Speaker 1: that's part of the problem, is like they don't like

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Speaker 1: it and they don't use it, so they don't understand it.

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Speaker 1: And number two, the theory is that once people get

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Speaker 1: used to it, then they'll be there more and more

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Speaker 1: and more. Well, what they've actually seen is people who

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Speaker 1: were initially excited about it and were early adopters, they've

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Speaker 1: actually fallen off and the user base has actually atrophied

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Speaker 1: and gone down over time. Now, like you said, maybe

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Speaker 1: they have some technological development and maybe it gains a

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Speaker 1: critical mass and maybe it picks up steam, but that

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Speaker 1: is not the trajectory that it is on right now.

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Speaker 1: So we'll see. We'll see if Jim Kramer is in

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Speaker 1: the end vindicated and has the last laugh here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's right, all right, guys. More real. So,

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Speaker 1: there's been a lot of discussion lately about record breaking

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Speaker 1: profits being made by the big oil companies. Biden is

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Speaker 1: floating the idea of a windfall profits tax, something that

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Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders been pushing for a long time. The week

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Speaker 1: of all this discussion, the CEO of Exon Mobile has responded,

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and put this up on the screen.

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Speaker 1: This is truly amazing. Exon robuts Biden's attack on profits,

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Speaker 1: citing dividend payout. Here is the quote specifically Sager. He says,

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Speaker 1: there has been discussion in the US about our industry

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Speaker 1: returning some of our profits directly to the American people.

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Speaker 1: Exon Chief executive Officer Darren Woodson prepared for Marks ahead

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Speaker 1: of the company's earnings conference call. That is exactly what

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Speaker 1: we're doing in the form of our quarterly dimon n

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Speaker 1: I mean, so magnanimous. They're already benefiting the American people

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Speaker 1: with their massive profits. I don't know what. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what anyone's complaining. This is one of the most

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Speaker 1: ridiculous explanations I have ever heard, which is that returning

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Speaker 1: your investor's cash. By the way, most of those investors

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Speaker 1: are not guarant even teed to even be Americans. Look,

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Speaker 1: this is why the entire thing annoys me. I know

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Speaker 1: this might surprise you, but I'm actually against the windfall

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Speaker 1: profits tax, and I'll tell you why, which is that

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Speaker 1: unless you do what you want to do, Crystal, which

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Speaker 1: is full sale nationalized the entire industry, then what are

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Speaker 1: you going to do. Well, if you nuke the profits

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Speaker 1: and the investors are going to say, okay, then no

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Speaker 1: more drilling, and then all of us to pay a

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Speaker 1: shit ton more for oil and gas. So it doesn't

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Speaker 1: make any sense. I know it sounds nice in order

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Speaker 1: to do it, but literally, unless you control one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent root to branch the entire supply, if you remove

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Speaker 1: all because remember we all know why Why are we

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Speaker 1: all in this position? Why was there not more drilling

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Speaker 1: being done over the last five years or over the

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Speaker 1: last couple of years. Because investors effectively gave Exon and

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Speaker 1: all the rest of the oil companies half a billion

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Speaker 1: or half a trillion dollars in in funding. They spent

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Speaker 1: all that on drilling. It actually didn't end up workout,

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Speaker 1: and they took a massive bath from twenty nineteen to

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one during COVID pandemic. Then in the crush,

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Speaker 1: they're like, Exon says, ok, we drill more. Should we

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Speaker 1: increase production? The investors are like, no, no, no, no no, no,

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Speaker 1: you're not increasing production. You're going to pay us back

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Speaker 1: for all the money. And that's what they're doing. There

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Speaker 1: more honest discussion. Well, okay, but that does assume that

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Speaker 1: the price of oil and the price at the gas

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Speaker 1: pump bears a direct relationship to supply and demand, and

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Speaker 1: that's the only thing that's going on here. It has

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Speaker 1: some impact, but it ignores the fact that, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we know that price gougings happen not only with the

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Speaker 1: oil companies but with all kinds of corporations across the board,

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Speaker 1: where they see we can get away with charging more.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to charge more then you have. In

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Speaker 1: the commodities markets, the prices are set not so much

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Speaker 1: by supply and demand, but by what traders and speculators,

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Speaker 1: and even more than that, the algorithms that fuel these things,

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Speaker 1: what their expectations are of what other speculators are going

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Speaker 1: to do. So it's much more complex than just supply

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Speaker 1: and demand. If it was just supply and demand, I

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Speaker 1: think you make a strong case. But because there's so

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Speaker 1: much else going on here in terms of financial speculators

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Speaker 1: and in terms of priceuching, that I think it could

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Speaker 1: have an impact, and the very threat of it ultimately

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Speaker 1: could have an impact as well, because I mean, you

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Speaker 1: see the record breaking profits from all of these companies

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Speaker 1: while they're crying about high prices and oh, we don't

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Speaker 1: have enough, you know, we don't have enough supply, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: So that's why I'm less persuaded that this is, you know,

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Speaker 1: fools there and it wouldn't work whatsoever. So we have

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Speaker 1: done windfall profits taxes a couple times in our history.

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Speaker 1: The most successful ones were actually during wartime, and they

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Speaker 1: were windfall profits taxes on like the military industrial complex

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Speaker 1: where it was basically like I mean FDR did this,

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Speaker 1: I think it was Woodrow Wilson did it as well

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Speaker 1: during World War One, and it actually raised a lot

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Speaker 1: of revenue and it was a sort of a check

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Speaker 1: on this idea that you know, here we are going

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Speaker 1: to war and then there's these people who were profiting

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Speaker 1: off of it and it's grotesque. That's how was actually

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Speaker 1: can bring up, which is that really it only works

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Speaker 1: in a full blown wartime economy, which you know, Carter

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Speaker 1: tried one on gas in the seventies and the reason

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Speaker 1: it failed was because it was written in this very

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Speaker 1: like loophole ridden neoliberal kind of a way. So there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of specifics that have to be worked out

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Speaker 1: for it to be effective. But I'm not opposed to it,

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Speaker 1: given the fact that we've seen fifty two percent of

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Speaker 1: inflation is really corporate price gouging. Yes, however, I would

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Speaker 1: much rather just pay less for gas and everybody, I

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Speaker 1: just don't see you at risk, which is there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of other things you can do outside of windfel profits,

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Speaker 1: tax and to actually boost production their spr if they

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Speaker 1: actually leaned into more setting the floor place of oil

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Speaker 1: and all that. In the future probably have more already

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Speaker 1: done though, so they didn't. But they didn't do it

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Speaker 1: actually to the extent that what we were calling for,

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Speaker 1: even in the beginning from three months ago, they basically

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Speaker 1: did a half assed version and then now they're trying

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Speaker 1: to do it for the future. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: things that they could actually do on the production front,

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Speaker 1: and they've had a little six months at this point

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Speaker 1: to do it. I just want people to pay less.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's unfortunate Exon and all of them are

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Speaker 1: making money. But you know, look, at this point, people

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Speaker 1: are getting hosed to like a historic degree, and I

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Speaker 1: don't see any evidence that this would do anything to

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Speaker 1: lower the price of gas, and it's directly punitive. Punitive.

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Speaker 1: I'm fine with as but let's let it come later,

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Speaker 1: not when we actually need these people to pump oil

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Speaker 1: now and actually give us cheaper gas. So I just

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Speaker 1: think it's counterproductive. And also like, look, if Crystal in

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Speaker 1: your ideal world, sure it would work out, but we

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Speaker 1: don't live in that world. We don't actually live in

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Speaker 1: the world where we have the electric transition, Like they're

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Speaker 1: not investing in anything of the future, so well that's

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Speaker 1: not true. I mean the Inflation Reduction Act has significant

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Speaker 1: green infrastructure investments. I agree it's not sufficient, but you

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Speaker 1: can't say they're doing nothing. It's not going to replace

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Speaker 1: Clearly they are doing Clearly, they are doing something. And

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Speaker 1: the idea is over time it will create the infrastructure

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Speaker 1: that you know could potentially replace oil. And guess are

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Speaker 1: we there yet today? No? But actually, I mean that

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Speaker 1: is one side effect of the war in Ukraine as

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Speaker 1: people are getting a lot more serious about the green

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Speaker 1: energy transition because you realize how susceptible you are, not

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Speaker 1: only in terms of like domestic political shocks, beholden to

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Speaker 1: the like you know, the Saudi's and what they want

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Speaker 1: to do with production, the Russians, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: So it is accelerated that transition. They are doing something.

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Speaker 1: But is it here and now, of course not. I

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Speaker 1: don't disagree. I just think we should not overstate the

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Speaker 1: extent to which it is. It's still a dropping the bucket.

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Speaker 1: You could spend all the money you want on solar

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Speaker 1: and we're still talking about like ten percent of houses

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Speaker 1: in the United States. It's just not happening. Like what

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Speaker 1: ninety percent of the cars on the road run on gas.

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Speaker 1: I was telling you, use car market is two thirds

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Speaker 1: of the entire market of the United States. We are

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Speaker 1: going to be using gas in our cars for decades

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Speaker 1: to come. That's just the reality. And especially for industry

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Speaker 1: natural gas, we have yet to find a more proven

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Speaker 1: solution that people are actually willing to spend any money

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Speaker 1: on in terms of powering our grid, especially more we

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Speaker 1: can't just give up. I'm actually more optimistic about the

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Speaker 1: transition to electric vehicles in part because California just, you know,

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Speaker 1: basically mandated that it could try. I mean, because but

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Speaker 1: we have a track record of California basically setting the

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Speaker 1: standard for the entire country. I mean, the car makers

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Speaker 1: really responded to their demands and you already and part

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Speaker 1: of why because Gavin Newsom is no like you, I

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Speaker 1: mean's a corporate democrat, is sort of cloaking himself in

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Speaker 1: progressivism right now. But the reason you pass that is

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Speaker 1: because it's what the automakers see for themselves for the

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Speaker 1: future and what they're already gearing and retooling towards. So

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Speaker 1: when you have something the industry wants, it makes it

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Speaker 1: much more likely that the Biden administration or a future

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Speaker 1: Trump administration or whatever is going to go along with

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Speaker 1: it because their incentives are always to sort of facts.

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Speaker 1: I would love for it to be that way. I've

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Speaker 1: seen no evidence we could replace one hundred percent of

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Speaker 1: the cars with the current supply chain that we have,

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Speaker 1: which don't have enough of cobalts. We don't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of nickel. That is the biggest books on time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is the big don't exist for the state of California,

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Speaker 1: let alone the United States. It took what when do

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Speaker 1: we start really commercially drilling for oil nineteen forty five?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it took decades to get the infrastructure that

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Speaker 1: we have right now. You're basically asking for a similar

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Speaker 1: infrastructure project. Well, what I'm asking for right now is

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Speaker 1: to penalize and tax the price gougers. That's what I'm

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Speaker 1: asking for right now. I just don't think it would

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Speaker 1: work oil and gas and other industries as well, who

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Speaker 1: have been making excess profit, I mean insane profits off

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Speaker 1: the back of struggling Americans. So I applaud the direction

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Speaker 1: we'll see. First of all, I know this celebrate the

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Speaker 1: quarterly dividend that the CEO is bequeathing to what I'm

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Speaker 1: really learning from this is I should buy some Excellan stock.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I probably lie about that too. Time now for

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Speaker 1: our weekly partnership segment with the Lever and joining us

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Speaker 1: this week is a reporter from that outlet, one of

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Speaker 1: my favorites, Matthew Cunningham Cook. Great to see you, sir,

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me on Crystal. I appreciate

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Speaker 1: our pleasure. All right, So we have heard a lot

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Speaker 1: about Doug Mastriano, who is the Republican nominee for governor

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Speaker 1: in the state of Pennsylvania. Races a lot closer than

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Speaker 1: people would like. We've talked to you about. You know,

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Speaker 1: he was at January sixth. He was really key to

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Speaker 1: Trump's like fake electors schemes and election denialism, very extreme

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Speaker 1: on abortion. But you dug into a part of his

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Speaker 1: plans that I think is just as significant and important.

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Speaker 1: Let's go and put this up on the screen. Mastrano

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Speaker 1: and Pennsylvania GOP plot war on workers. The GP's Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: gubernatorial nominee is planning to crush unions if he wins

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Speaker 1: on November eighth. So what is he saying he's planning

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Speaker 1: to do here? Yeah, I mean what we see from

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Speaker 1: his record is that he was one of just a

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Speaker 1: third of his caucus in the Pennsylvania State Senate Republican

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Speaker 1: caucus to vote against a very modest increase in the

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Speaker 1: minimum wage in twenty nineteen, and then more recently he

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Speaker 1: pledged to use his network to support the passage of

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Speaker 1: right to work in Pennsylvania. And basically, you know the

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Speaker 1: labor movement, it calls right to work, right to work

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Speaker 1: for less. It puts the open shop into law, so

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Speaker 1: if you have a union representing you, you can choose

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Speaker 1: whether or not to pay dues. Never mind the fact

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Speaker 1: that that creates a financial death spiral for unions, and

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Speaker 1: it means that basically the union is too weak to

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Speaker 1: do anything meaningful in the shop. So that's why you

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Speaker 1: see all these problems with low wages and poor working

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Speaker 1: conditions in places like Mississippi and South Carolina, is because

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Speaker 1: unions were never really able to get a deep base

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Speaker 1: in the state thanks to right to work legislation. What

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Speaker 1: we really think kind of showcases the importance here is

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Speaker 1: that you can't separate extreme anti democracy views from extreme

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Speaker 1: anti working class views and extreme anti union views. So

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Speaker 1: we've seen this time and time again. But unfortunately, you know,

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Speaker 1: besides outlets like breaking points or the lever. Frankly, there's

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Speaker 1: a huge component of this rising extreme right that doesn't

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Speaker 1: engage at all with this very important question of how

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Speaker 1: does the extreme rate right relate to economics, how does

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Speaker 1: it relate to labor and the working class? Well, and

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Speaker 1: in fact, I mean you see Mastriano, like lazily called

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Speaker 1: a populist, and maybe even calls himself that. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: because he buys into like election conspiracy theories. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how that makes you a populist. In fact, to me,

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Speaker 1: it's quite the opposite. I mean, that makes you anti

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Speaker 1: democracy and like, to me, the bedrock of being populist

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Speaker 1: is believing in democracy and believing in the will of

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Speaker 1: the people versus the will of a you know, an

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Speaker 1: elite class or a group of authoritarians. And so for me,

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Speaker 1: it makes perfect philosophical sense that if you're basically opposed

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Speaker 1: to democracy at the voting booth, you're also going to

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Speaker 1: be opposed to any sort of democracy within the workplace,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, unions at their best. That's the

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Speaker 1: ideas you're giving workers a little bit of a voice

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Speaker 1: in their workplace. And obviously there's even more. You know,

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Speaker 1: some would call them radical. I think their common sense

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Speaker 1: ideas for co ops and things like that, which would

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Speaker 1: give workers even more of a say in a stake

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Speaker 1: in their workplaces ultimately. So for me, it's not confusing

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Speaker 1: at all to see that this instinct towards authoritarianism and

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Speaker 1: our democratic institutions would go hand in glove with an

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Speaker 1: instinct towards authoritarianism within our corporate institutions. Yeah. I think

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Speaker 1: that's absolutely right, you know. And it's so funny all

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Speaker 1: of this, you know, right wing concern about censorship and

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Speaker 1: free speech, some of which is legitimate. I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: it's totally illegitimate, but it's like, where do Americans spend

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Speaker 1: most of their time? You know. I used to joke

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Speaker 1: with a coworker of my mind, spend more time together

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Speaker 1: than I spend with my family, you know. And so

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Speaker 1: it's really important to acknowledge the fact that in the

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Speaker 1: workplace there are no free speech rights. You know, there

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Speaker 1: are no no rights to contest what's happening to you

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Speaker 1: unless there's a union contract protecting you. And that's a

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Speaker 1: huge portion of this whole story that I think is

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Speaker 1: really missing. The other thing that I would just had

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Speaker 1: is that, you know, Pennsylvania Republicans, right to work applies

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Speaker 1: to private sector unions, and Pennsylvania Publicans have also championed

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Speaker 1: so called paycheck protection laws more like paycheck deception laws

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Speaker 1: that place all these really onerous requirements on public sector

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Speaker 1: unions to be able to do their jobs. And so again,

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Speaker 1: you know what's so interesting is, you know all of

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Speaker 1: this extreme pro police rhetoric, you know, and sometimes you

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Speaker 1: see pro police and fire rhetoric from the Republicans. Meanwhile

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Speaker 1: they're attacking the unions, their unions. Yeah, that's a great

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Speaker 1: point too well, And do you have a sense of

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Speaker 1: is the Republican caucus in the state House and Senate

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Speaker 1: are they entirely behind this, because you know, at the

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Speaker 1: national level, every Republican is against unions. Every Republican is

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Speaker 1: in favor of right to work so called right to

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Speaker 1: work legislation. But you know, having lived in states like Kentucky,

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Speaker 1: having worked in states like West Virginia, at the state level,

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Speaker 1: it's a little more complex. You still have some Republicans

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Speaker 1: in state legislatures who are close with unions, who back

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Speaker 1: union rights, who are opposed to right to work laws,

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Speaker 1: and Pennsylvania being a state with you know, a deep

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Speaker 1: union history and a decent size for you know, comparatively

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Speaker 1: union population. At this point, is there any of that

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Speaker 1: sort of bipartisan support for unions found in the Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: State Houser Senate. It's getting smaller every every year, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the most pro labor Republican in the state

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Speaker 1: House he got tired of the Tea Party control and

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Speaker 1: was like, I'd rather be a county commissioner, you know.

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Speaker 1: So that's gend Gerolimov from suburban Bucks County. Brian Fitzpatrick,

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Speaker 1: the congressman from Bucks County, is also is a Republican

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Speaker 1: and also consistently gets labor support and was I believe

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Speaker 1: one of one or two Republicans to vote for the

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Speaker 1: pro Act when it came this year. So there is

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Speaker 1: a small group, but it getting smaller and smaller. But again,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's so interesting how much that is different

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Speaker 1: from the perspective of that's painted by the corporate media,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the New York Times in particular, you

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Speaker 1: know of kind of trump Ism, which is that this

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Speaker 1: is like about Republicans getting into the working class, and

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Speaker 1: it's like, actually, since Trump took over. Almost all of

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Speaker 1: the pro worker Republicans in Pennsylvania have left, retired, lost,

428
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: you know, left the legislature. And that's a big kind

429
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 1: of part of the story that it's like, actually, the

430
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 1: pro worker Republicans tended to be pro choice, tended to

431
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 1: be moderate on immigration, you know, tended to be in

432
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: favor of kind of a broad idea of religious freedom

433
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 1: and separation of church and state. That that's really kind

434
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: of what pro working class Republicans look like. They don't

435
00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: really look like Trump or Mastriano. Yeah, I think that's

436
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: a great point. And you know, union support is at

437
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: historic levels. You know, in spite of the fact that

438
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 1: unions have been crushed and oftentimes in a bipartisan way,

439
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: but certainly led by the Republicans, you still have the

440
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: American people who really believe in labor. I mean, in

441
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: some ways they've never believed in labor. More so, you

442
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 1: have a glaring example of a massive disconnect between the

443
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 1: political leads to the Republican Party and even what the

444
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: Republican base really wants and is looking for. So so

445
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,360
Speaker 1: important that you shine a light on this. Matthew, thank

446
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: you so much for this great reporting and It's great

447
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: to see you. Thanks so much for having me on

448
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:44,199
Speaker 1: Crystal Yeah, our pleasure. Hey everyone, this is Ken Clippinstign

449
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: with Breaking Points Intercept Edition. I'm going to be talking

450
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: to you today about Twitter. Big goings on at Twitter

451
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: dot com. Elon Musk acquired it last week. I hope

452
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: you're not learning that from me. You have to be

453
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,679
Speaker 1: living under a rock if you haven't heard that. But

454
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: what I want to talk to you about it is

455
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: is a is a factor in Twitter that nobody wants

456
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: to talk about, which is the reason I enjoy discussing it.

457
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 1: Which is Saudi Arabia's role on all of this, which

458
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: is one of my favorite subjects because it's one of

459
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: Washington's least favorite subjects. And I don't know how widely

460
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 1: known this is, but there is a Saudi billionaire prince

461
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 1: that owns a significant steak in that company and joined

462
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: with me today is Khalid al Jabri, an expert on

463
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: Saudi a faris frequent commentator to explain, you know, what

464
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 1: does that mean, how might that change under the new leadership,

465
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: and just you know, what is the nature of this

466
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: Because we hear so much about foreign influence in relation

467
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: to you know, Russia, China, Iran, the usual suspects. We

468
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: don't hear a whole lot of it from our putative

469
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: allies in the Persian Gulf. So Kali, can you talk

470
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: a little bit about and before we launch here, can

471
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: we start with the first element just to give people

472
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: a sense of So this is. This is Prince Al

473
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: Wi Lead, who owns a major stake in Satura Arabia.

474
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: When Elon Musk first made his offer to try to

475
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: purchase it, he says, I don't believe the proposed offer

476
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: by Elon Musk fifty four to twenty comes close to

477
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 1: the intrinsic value of Twitter, giving its growth prospects. Being

478
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: one of the largest long term shareholders of Twitter, I

479
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 1: reject this offer. How is this guy in a position

480
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: kllie to reject nowfer like that he doesn't have the

481
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,239
Speaker 1: authority to do that. It was a really extraordinary when

482
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: I saw that. I think, you know, first of all,

483
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: thank you for having me on your show again. I

484
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 1: think the audience deserved to know facts. Bat elidalav So,

485
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: the Saudis, through Prince Alwalid and his holding company called

486
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: Kingdom Holding, have owned a stake in Twitter since twenty eleven.

487
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: So this is not a new investment, This is not

488
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: a new cash injection. This predates Musk's takeover of the platform.

489
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 1: Simply put, Aloualid and his holding company exercise their illegal

490
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: right by saying we want to stay on board with

491
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:52,479
Speaker 1: the new ownership structure. Alualid is a very interesting character.

492
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: He is the grandson of the first King of Saudi Arabia.

493
00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: The current king is his uncle. The notorious Prince Mohammed

494
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: bin Salman or known as MBS, is his cousin. And

495
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: basically he has never been a Saudi official, but he's

496
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: widely known to be a billionaire, an investor, in a philanthropist,

497
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: and basically he is speaking from the kind of sense

498
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 1: of authority as one of the major stakeholders in Twitter,

499
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 1: believing that you know, Elon musk original offer was not

500
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: at the true value of his investment. And can we

501
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: get the second element up there to show people how

502
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: Musk responded to that tweet? He says, interesting, just two questions,

503
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: if I may, how much of Twitter does the Kingdom

504
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: own directly and indirectly? What are the Kingdom's views on

505
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: journalistic freedom of speech? Again, I said Satura Arabia is

506
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: one of Washington his least favorite subjects, and this is

507
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 1: one of the reasons, because you know, it's this petro

508
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: state that we rely on for oil, but you know

509
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: it's human rights record does not, shall we say, line

510
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: up with how we like to think of our role

511
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: in the international system and the kind of you know,

512
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: support that we say we have for democracies. Collegue, can

513
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: you speak a bit to you know, if there was

514
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: any response on Awalied's part and like this, what kind

515
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: of dynamic is hitting at? That was a very nuanced

516
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: and smart tweet Bierlamusk And I think when he says

517
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: how much of does kingdom own directly? And directly he

518
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: was alluding to what happened to Alulid Bintalal in twenty seventeen.

519
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: Alualid people should have a bit of sympathy with him

520
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: as well, because he's also a victim of his notorious

521
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: cousin NBS. He was part of scores of froils and

522
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: businessmen that were taken to their Riz Carlton hotel in

523
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen that was turned into basically a prison where

524
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 1: reportedly people were tortured, including at least one case of

525
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 1: death and they were tortured into giving up their assets.

526
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: There were reports about Alwalid literally being hung up upside

527
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: down by his ankles and forced to give his assets.

528
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: And since then, Alwalid, who owns a steak in four

529
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: seasons he owned a steak in the New York Plaza,

530
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: he actually owns a private jet that was dubbed as

531
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: a flying palace, has not even been able to leave

532
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: the Kingdom. And I think what that tweet alludes to

533
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 1: by Musk is like, I know what's happening to you.

534
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 1: You're probably I don't know if that's your own words,

535
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: or you're under duress. And basically, you know, people have

536
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 1: reasons now to doubt if the will lease decisions, including

537
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: staying on board, is autonomous or something that was influenced

538
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: by the state. So it sounds like what Musk is

539
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,719
Speaker 1: hinting at here, which I appreciate his part because he's

540
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: really saying the quiet part loud, which is that is

541
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: MBS behind this, Are you actually you know, acting independently

542
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: here because you've been you know, rendered to this hotel

543
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: and God knows what happened, and you know, in a

544
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: regime like Saturabia, it's not like the United States, where

545
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: there's a clear demarcation between private and government, you know,

546
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: and it's clear from you know, our conversations that that

547
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: there was a lot done at that point in time

548
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: to appropriate the wealth of the individuals that were brought

549
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: in there. So do you have much insight into into

550
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: what role the NBS has now and so, I mean,

551
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: it's not clear. There's a reason actually that Forbes magazines

552
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: stopped actually looking at Elily's networth both posts twenty seventeen,

553
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: and the reason is nobody can get accurate data, but

554
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: just a bit of facts as well. So all of

555
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: Elilit's holdings are through his personal holding company, five percent

556
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: of that is floated in the Saudi stock market, and

557
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: up until May of this year, ironically, around the same

558
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: time that you know, there was this whole kind of

559
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: takeover Twitter saga, he owned ninety five percent. People said

560
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: that there was a backdoor agreement by which he was

561
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: he would give the state part of his ownership in

562
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,719
Speaker 1: that holding company, but actually in May he signed an

563
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: agreement to sell seventeen percent off his holding company to

564
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: the Sovereign Wealth Fund of Satia Arabia that is chaired

565
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: by MBS. So now objectively, you can argue that the

566
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: Sovereign Wealth Fund of Sadi Arabia, indirectly through el will

567
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: Eed Holding company his investments, has an INDU direct ownership

568
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: and Twitter. But again, this is not a function off

569
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: Elon Musk's takeover. This is something that p dated the

570
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: takeover by more than ten years, and it's a very

571
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: important fact. Yeah, it's an interesting point. Can we get

572
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: a photo up here of former Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey

573
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: shaking hands with Crown Prince NBS. This was I believe

574
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: after Kashogi, right, No, this is actually twenty sixteen, when

575
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 1: MBS was you know, received with red carpet treatments and

576
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: you know, hailed as a messiah and a reformer. But

577
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: what's really troubling is this happened a year after MBS

578
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: agents recruited spies to infiltrate Twitter headquarters and stole Oh

579
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: that's right, private and from another strategy? Is that enough attention?

580
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: Justice Department, you know, released a statement saying that you know,

581
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: Sadi was literally operating a foreign agent, which is like,

582
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: by definite, that's the definition of foreign interference. How do

583
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: we not hear more about this? It's it's a funny

584
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: story actually if you look at the superseding indictment by DOJ.

585
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: While NBS was in Virginia for his first visit to

586
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: the US as an official, his chief of staff recruited

587
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: the Saudi engineer who was working for Twitter, and basically

588
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: that engineer used Twitter laptops, flew with that laptop to

589
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: Sadi Arabia, downloaded, you know, personal information of Saudi dissidents,

590
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: and handed it over to the regime. And that happened

591
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen. So it's really troubling to see the

592
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: former CEO of Twitter, you know, meeting NBS after that act.

593
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: I mean, like, I have to be fair to Jack

594
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: as well, and I don't know if he was aware

595
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: of what had happened when it comes to this whole

596
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: kind of spy and infiltration. But it's also troubling if

597
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: you're in the CEO of Twitter and you don't know

598
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: that that happened as well. Anyway, slicly, it doesn't look

599
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: good for the previous management. And just to complete the circle,

600
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: two months ago, there was actually one of the one

601
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: of the spies was convicted by a grand jury in

602
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 1: the federal court in California. First spuying for the Sali regime.

603
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: What's really disappointing also in how Twitter bungled the situation

604
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: back in twenty fifteen, is the main person who handed

605
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: the data to the Saudi government. After the Twitter lawyers

606
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: were alerted by by federal agents, they interviewed him and

607
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: he got scared and he left the US the same night.

608
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: So instead of being you know, facing accountability in court,

609
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 1: he's now a fugative in Saudi Arabia, wanted by the FBI. Wow,

610
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: and our customs and border protection didn't stop him. That's

611
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: extraordinary to me. And not just that, but again a

612
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: literal spy. You know, you'd think that this would be

613
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: one of the things people mentioned when they talk about

614
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: foreign influence. It's something I can barely find any reporting on.

615
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about why is MBS

616
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: so obsessed with Twitter? What is used to him? Because

617
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: you mentioned one case. You know, if he's bringing the

618
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: laptop back and finding out about a dissidence that you

619
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: can you know, you can map out network and do

620
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: god knows what to what are his other interests? Yeah,

621
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: I think we need to take a step back because

622
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: it's not just about Twitter or Twitter happens to be

623
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: the most influential social media platform. NBS has a chronic

624
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: history of being obsessed with social media and its influence

625
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: to manipulate the masses and influence public opinion. I'm told

626
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: by a senior Saudi executives that as early as twenty eleven,

627
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: and his dad wasn't even Crown prince then. By the way,

628
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: MBS what had to be talked out of an idea

629
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: to build the Saudi Facebook because he was told there's

630
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: no value, the value in social media as a network effective.

631
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: Nobody's using your network will have zero value. But he

632
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: was aware of the power of social media because around

633
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: that time there was a series of popular uprising in

634
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: the app region. People know it as the Arab Spring,

635
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: where social media played at a very integral part. And

636
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: if you look at MBS when it comes to Twitter,

637
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: he is super obsessed. He uses it for disseminating state propaganda.

638
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: It is also a potent self promotion tool. He also

639
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: uses it for character assassinations of rivals, and it's also

640
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: a harassment and transnational repression tool for online intimidation of

641
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: Saudi dissidents abroad. Not only that, but recently we see

642
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: how Saudi kangaroo courts terrorism courts are using Twitter as

643
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: a pretext to sentence activists and talk about that racconian

644
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: sentences just for having a Twitter account. The most recent

645
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: case example of that is actually an American citizen from

646
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: Florida who had some mildly critical tweets tweeted on US soil.

647
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: The moment he returned to Saudi Arabia for a vacation,

648
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: he got arrested in the airport, and now he has

649
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: been sentenced to sixteen years in prison on sporious charges

650
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: that are nothing more than just owning a Twitter account

651
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: and tweeting on US soil. So I know people have

652
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: a lot of concern about freedom of speech and so

653
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: on with the recent takeover, but when it comes to

654
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, it's a whole different level. Yeah, And if

655
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: anybody wants to see that botnet activity in the reaction,

656
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: I would just encourage them to tweet anything at all

657
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: about the US Saudi relationship that's critical. You'll very quickly

658
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 1: see how how quickly, how rapidly these things come into

659
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: I've seen Twitter mentioned it's it's basically like you've been

660
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: a victim of one of the elements at which NBS

661
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: uses Twitter platform, which is online harassment and hope. You

662
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: know what he tries to achieve with that is to

663
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: try and break you down psychologically, to ture you from

664
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: writing pieces about Saudi Arabia, you know, in the future.

665
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: There's a recent case of actually a PC student in

666
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 1: the United Kingdom who went back to Saudi Arabia for vacation.

667
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: She got sentenced for thirty four years in prison plus

668
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: thirty four years of you know, being on travel band

669
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: her charges owning a Twitter account and following dissidents imagine

670
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: and saying it no, not even tweets, there were no tweets. Imagine.

671
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: Following a dissident can get you locked up for thirty

672
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: years in prison in Saudi Arabia. So what you've described

673
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: not just a threat to Saudi nationals, but u assisztens

674
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: is the is the case that you mentioned before which

675
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: I'm amazed the State Department isn't. I mean, I'm not,

676
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: you know, not surprised, but disappointed, let's put it. But

677
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: so so now we have a chance where things you

678
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: know might go in a different direction. Can you speak

679
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: to do you have any sense of how Musk might

680
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 1: run this differently, and and and you know, uh how

681
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: you hope that things will play out of the next

682
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: few months. You know, I see like historically people have

683
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: had a lot of a grievances with with the Twitter

684
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: platform that predate the Musk takeover. And you know, with

685
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: any change, any new ownership and managements, you know, it's

686
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: fair for people to basically, uh be apprehensive. But you know,

687
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: I'm a contrarian what I see right now, I think

688
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: it's totally unfair to to go on the offensive and

689
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: attack Elon Musk for pre existing grievances. This is the thing.

690
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: A lot of the reporting is kind of like discovering

691
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: today that there's a there's a Saudi role in there.

692
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: But all of this was very very well known. You know,

693
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 1: the Twitter ownership, the Twitter hacking, the security vulnerabilities, all

694
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: of these predated, uh you know Musk, and I was

695
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: part of letters that were drafted to the previous management

696
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: and that went unaddressed. So you can't blame Elon for

697
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 1: pre existing vulnerabilities, uh uh that that the previous management

698
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: and under the previous ownership structure failed to address. As

699
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 1: a contrarian, seeing the half full part of the cup,

700
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: I actually see uh you know, a bit of optimistic

701
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: touches made by elon that very first tweet, second tweet

702
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 1: that you showed him interacting with now the second largest

703
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: shareholder in Twitter. He interacted publicly with the Saudi Royal,

704
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: who is the second largest shareholder in Twitter, basically criticizing

705
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: the Kingdom's crack down on freedom of speech. No other

706
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 1: tech executive has said that. So he's already miles ahead

707
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: and terms at least, you know, I'm talking about sat

708
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: Arabia and the use of Twitter as a tartarian tool.

709
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: He's already miles ahead of that. He has pledged to

710
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: defeat the bots or die trying. Basically, he has pledged

711
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: to make the Twitter algorithms open source and therefore increasing transparency.

712
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: And he pledged to actually have I think at what

713
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: he called a content moderation board that no major decision

714
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: about content or reinstating some of the blocked accounts or

715
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: suspended accounts would happen without the council convening. I think

716
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: all of the pre existing uh you know, vulnerabilities in

717
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: Twitter basically offer an opportunity and a long hanging fruit

718
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: and a lot of quick wins for everybody and if

719
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: Elon genuinely falls through with his pudges, he would actually

720
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: render Twitter safer and healthier, you know, platform than it

721
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 1: ever was by addressing issues that, for one reason or another,

722
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: the previous management failed to address. Yeah, what's interesting about

723
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: all this is that the baseline for these you know,

724
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: billionaire tech executives in their relationship with Saudi leadership. I mean,

725
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: I you know, we just showed everyone in the photo

726
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: of the former Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey meeting with him,

727
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: but it was also je Jeff Bezos met with him

728
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: as well. All these tech executives do. So it's like

729
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: you compare that kind of glad handing to this type

730
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: of relationship, and you know there's more tension there. So

731
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: it's not just the Twitter apply that that must issued,

732
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 1: but also the fact that there was a very strange

733
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: attempt by NBS to get into the electric vehicle business.

734
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: Can you talk about that a little bit? I mean,

735
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: if you want to put everything in context as well,

736
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: you can even argue that this, you know, MBS is

737
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: a direct competitor of a Felon Musk. They owned two

738
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: thirds of a California based electric carve article cold Lucid,

739
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: which is not doing pretty well at the moment, but

740
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: still you know they're they're actually competitors. You can even

741
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 1: go back and say, I think at some point they've

742
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: made a handshake promise with Elon about taking Tesla you

743
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: know private, and basically walked out the last minute and

744
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: cause all sorts of problem with the sec with with Elon.

745
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: So and again, I just want to say, at one point,

746
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: as a Saudi like, I actually think the the engagement

747
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: between tech companies and the Saudi leadership is actually a

748
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: more potent tool to influence change in Saudi Arabia than

749
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: arms sales. As you can see, like MBS was touring

750
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: you know, Palo Alto and like Seattle and so on,

751
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, like again this is my

752
00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: contrarian point of view. With the recent takeover, probably Musk

753
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: has more leeway and leverage to influence NBS's behavior than

754
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: Joe Biden himself. Wow, that's quite a statement. Although you know,

755
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: seeing what the White House has been doing, or rather

756
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,439
Speaker 1: hasn't been doing, maybe that's easier to believe. I mean,

757
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: these statements, it's so frustrating. They come on and say,

758
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: you know, we're considering maybe slowing down some of the

759
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: arm sales. It's like, come on, how is this how

760
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: you're communicating to this guy after everything you know about

761
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: how MBS we've talked about this before, understands language of force. Yeah,

762
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: you know, it's very troubling because like we saw how

763
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: during the campaign it was, you know, he's going to

764
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: be made a praya, he's going to face accountability, and

765
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: then that ended up being a fist bump. And I

766
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: think I said a last time, my expectation is the

767
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: current promise of consequences up being just a risk slap again.

768
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: It's high time that the US start acting like the

769
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 1: senior partner in their relationship. I want that to happen,

770
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: not because I have any personal agrievances with NBS. I

771
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,479
Speaker 1: think it's the best hope we have as Saudi's, Saudi people,

772
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: as a Saudi country. I don't even want to go

773
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 1: and think what sat Arabia would like without a stable

774
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: partnership with the United States. Nobody in his sane mind

775
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: would bet on Russia today or even you know, China.

776
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 1: God forbid, If China becomes the strategic partner with Sadi,

777
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: we're going to end up with a surveillance state. A

778
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: police state and autocratic capitalism and probably modeling what China did,

779
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: including holding a million of their own citizens in concentration camps.

780
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: So I just want to close on the possibility. How

781
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: likely do you think it is that a will Lead

782
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: might pull out his stake in Twitter? Because this just

783
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: because of I mean a number of reasons, but the

784
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: tension that exists between him in Musk, which there was

785
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: no sort of you know, comparable dynamic under the previous leadership.

786
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: I would look at it as a business transaction for

787
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: a lead at this point, notwithstanding the fact that his

788
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: business decisions might not be fully autonomous. Again, he invested

789
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: three hundred million dollars in twenty and eleven. Now they're

790
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: worth one point nine billion, so he clearly made a

791
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 1: lot of money. Same time for Elon if he wants

792
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 1: to kick Wild's out, somebody needs to raise that money

793
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: for him. But you know, regardless of that, what I

794
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: want to summarize is the Saudis have owned a stake

795
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: in Twitter ten more than ten years before the Musk takeover.

796
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: NBS has infiltrated Twitter with actual spies, you know, seventy

797
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: years before the Musk takeover. Authoritarian regimes have been having

798
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: field days on Twitter for as long as I can remember. Twitter,

799
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 1: you know, has had concerning security vulnerabilities that have been

800
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: you know, aired in public with the recent whistleblower, long

801
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: before the Musk takeover. As a physician, you know, the

802
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: training as a med school and residency and fellowship to

803
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: be very solution oriented, and when patients still come my clinic,

804
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: we spend a lot of time on the diagnosis and

805
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: then you know, start talking how do I make you better?

806
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 1: I think everybody today knows what the problems are with Twitter,

807
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: and I would like to see, is is less attacks

808
00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: on Elon Musk for pre existing problems and more engagement

809
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: in a solution oriented dialogue. You know, that would make

810
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: Twitter a safe platform. There's a reason when I was

811
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: in business school at MIT that half of our class

812
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: discussions or about Elon Musk. He don't get to be

813
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: the richest man in the world by by a ludcorp,

814
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: not by being smart, and I think people should judge

815
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: him by his actions, not just by his words. And

816
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: even if you look at words, he's made some very

817
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: positive pledges that, if implemented, would render Twitter a safer,

818
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 1: better and a healthier platform. There's no question that Musk

819
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: is a wild card and all this, and people are

820
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: kind of watching this thinking, Okay, well what is he

821
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: going to do? I mean, we just had him come

822
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: out talking about charging for the blue check. So it's like,

823
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: clearly policies will change. And I think that was sort

824
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: of the question in the first you know forty eight

825
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: hours is are change can be cosmetic or you know,

826
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 1: well the substance change, No question, the substance is changing.

827
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: The question is you know how and what is that

828
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 1: going to look like? I mean, we can consume ourself

829
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: and discussions about what would future change look like and

830
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: be apprehensive of that. That's fair. But I'd rather basically

831
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: spend our efforts and time in trying to fix the

832
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: existing mistakes of the past that went unanswered by the

833
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 1: previous management and ownership of Twitter, rather than you know,

834
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 1: being distracted by future how hypotheticals that might never happen.

835
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 1: So it makes sense. Yeah, I'd agree, no no sense

836
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: of history among among people generally, but it's it's an

837
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:30,959
Speaker 1: important thing to look at, and that I've been trying

838
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 1: to report on is just you know, the rule of

839
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: this foreign government because we hear again we hear so

840
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: much about the usual suspect or sort of adversaries, but

841
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: it's important to think about you know, what your what

842
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: your putative friends are up to too. So thanks so

843
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: much for joining us, Kelly, thank you for having me.

844
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: It is Lever time, time for our weekly partnership segment

845
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: with our friends over at the Lever and joining us

846
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: today is Matthew Cunningham Cook. Great to see us, our

847
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: great to see you too, Crystal. So you are focusing

848
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: on something that we have been tracking very closely here,

849
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 1: which is the Fed's decision to once again hike interest

850
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: rates by a zero point seventy five percentage points. That's gone.

851
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: But your piece up on the screen, you say, the

852
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: Fed shares November surprised your own palace prepared and crash

853
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: the economy days before the midterm elections, hurting workers and

854
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: ushering his fellow Republicans into power breakdown for us, what

855
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: you argue here in this piece, Yeah, basically, this decision

856
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: we know is going to hurt working class Americans. We

857
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: know that because of prior experiences of that. So in particular,

858
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 1: starting in nineteen seventy nine, the FED launched an aggressive

859
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: interest rate strategy and you know, with the explicit goal

860
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: of ending inflation. But it was very clear at the

861
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: time that it was one type of inflation that FED

862
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: was interested in. It was it was wage inflation. And

863
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: so Paul Volker famously kept an index card, a three

864
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,879
Speaker 1: by five index card that his staff would give him

865
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: of the average construction worker wages, with the explicit goal

866
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: of being like, well, if these wages are going down,

867
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,720
Speaker 1: then I'm doing my job. And then power was really

868
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 1: echoed to that. He has said he wants to get

869
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,280
Speaker 1: wages down, he has said that he needs to bring

870
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: some pain to end inflation, and it's very clear that

871
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 1: this is really just disguised class warfare. But I think

872
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: what makes it kind of particularly concerning is that doing

873
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: it a week before an election is really functionally indistinguishable

874
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: from what James Comey did in twenty sixteen. It's an

875
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: active intervention into the political process by an institution that

876
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: claims to be above politics, that has the concrete effect

877
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 1: of hurting one party's chances of winning. So that's the

878
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: main thing here, and I think that it's something that

879
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: you know, we're so thankful to shows like Breaking Points

880
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: for consistently covering this issue. Because the mainstream media is

881
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: reporting on this issue is really really poor. I mean,

882
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: my big hobby horse that I'm hoping to write about

883
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: soon is the FED does not include the fact that

884
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 1: higher interest rates equal higher mortgage costs, higher refinancing costs

885
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: into it the way that it accounts for inflation. And

886
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 1: sixty seven percent of Americans of households have a mortgage.

887
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: So it's really a dangerous game that they're playing that

888
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: has the concrete effect of throwing Americans out of work,

889
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: and nobody's telling the truth about it except for a

890
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: few smaller outlets well, and there's an intentional effort to

891
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 1: make FED policy obscure, to make American think that they

892
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: aren't smart enough or don't know enough to understand it

893
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: or to critique it. You know, this was really an effort,

894
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, expressly undertaken by former FED chair Alan Greenspan,

895
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: who you know made his speeches intentionally opaque, so you

896
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: had to like have a PhD in economics to understand

897
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: what the f he was saying. And this is all

898
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: to give the appearance and this is like a very

899
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 1: neoliberal thing that they do that like the experts are

900
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: in charge, we're crunching the numbers. There's not even value

901
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: judgments here. This is just we're just doing the thing

902
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: that the numbers tell us to do, when in fact,

903
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: of course there are value judgments here. And part of

904
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: what to me in Jerome Pal's speech really gave away

905
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: the game is he actually said, quote, I don't think

906
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: wages are the principal story for why prices are going up,

907
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: and yet at other times he said we need to

908
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: get wages down. He said, there needs to be some pain.

909
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: So if you know that wages aren't the main problem

910
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 1: for inflation, which of course they are, because the reality

911
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 1: is wages are not keeping pace with inflation, So how

912
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: could they be the main thing causing inflation? That doesn't

913
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: make any sense. And yet you're continuing in this direction

914
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: knowing that your policy at the FED is not actually

915
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 1: having an impact on the things that are causing inflation.

916
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: Well then why are you continuing in the same direction. Yeah,

917
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: it's a great question. I mean I think that it's

918
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: very so. I mean one of the things that again

919
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: it's such a complex kind of issue when you get

920
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: into the details. On the surface level, it's very simple.

921
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 1: You know, the FED is the clearing class warfare against

922
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: working class Americans. But when you get into the details,

923
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: it becomes a little bit more complicated, I would say.

924
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: But one of the things that I that again we're

925
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: hoping to report in the future, that I think is

926
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: really interesting is one of J. Powell's former colleagues at

927
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: the Carlile Group has said that, unlike basically every other

928
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: industry in America, higher inter rates is going to be

929
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 1: great for private equity. Why is that Because the more

930
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: distressed businesses that there are because of higher interest rates,

931
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 1: the easier it is for Carlisle and other major private

932
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: equity firms with huge amounts of dry powder capital at

933
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 1: their disposal to purchase distressed companies on the chief. So

934
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: that's exactly what they're looking to do in the same

935
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: way as you pointed out that this you know, massive

936
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 1: money hose from the FED that emerged at the beginning

937
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: of COVID also allowed private equity firms to purchase uh

938
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: UH distress businesses. So it's really you know, heads eye win,

939
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: tails you lose, you know type situation here where only

940
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: the most powerful UH firms in the country are able

941
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: to exploit this economic misery towards their benefits and they

942
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: just happened to be the former colleagues of the Chairman

943
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: of the Federal overs The one thing that I think,

944
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't you know that we addressed in

945
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: the piece, but it wasn't in the top paragraph, which

946
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: and so that you know that I will just point

947
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: out is that you know, Biden reappointed Powell Chairman of

948
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve this year. A majority of Democratic senators

949
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: voted against voted in to confirm him. And that was

950
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: clearly a major mistake. That was clearly major error on

951
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: the Biden administration's part. And I think what it really

952
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: underscores is just how terrified mainstream politicians are from taking

953
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: on the Fed. You know, when Trump attacked Powell for

954
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: raising interest rates in twenty eighteen, there was all this

955
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: you know, hand ringing and pearl clutching from the mainstream

956
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: business press about about Trump asking into lower interest asking

957
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: to keep interest rates low. And again, you know what

958
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: what that underscores is the fact is that the media

959
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 1: is not totally is not going to tell the story

960
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: that there is no constituency for higher interest rates. You know,

961
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: even even people worth hundreds of millions of dollars. The

962
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 1: largest home builders in America. The large, the you know,

963
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:26,919
Speaker 1: the largest construction firms in America are all hurt by

964
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: higher interest rates. The only constituency are the people with

965
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: enough kind of actual capital at their disposal to buy

966
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: low and then later sell high. And that's that's you

967
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: point zero one percent of the population. Point zero zero

968
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: one percent of the population. But again, you know, they're

969
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: including you know, it's so interesting the business interests of

970
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 1: members of Congress. You know, uh, you know, that's their lawyers,

971
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: they're you know, they're you know, medium sized business owners

972
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: type things. They're going to be hurt by this too.

973
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: And really the sad fact is is that there's very

974
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: few members of Congress who understand what the FED is

975
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: actually doing and how it will impact the economy. And

976
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 1: you know, it really ties back to kind of this,

977
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: you know, this organized demonization of Bernie Sanders in the

978
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen and twenty twenty presidential campaign, where you know,

979
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: every single one of his ideas were presented as extreme

980
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,240
Speaker 1: left or on the one side, or you know, racist

981
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: or sexist on the other side. And it's really about

982
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: that was ultimately about like obfuscating a real understanding of

983
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: how the economy works. Bernie wrote an incredible op ed

984
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen for The New York Times that talked

985
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 1: about a broad set of reforms to the FED to

986
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 1: make it more accountable. You know, the regional FED boards

987
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: all have banking and industry representation, very few have any

988
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 1: type of labor representation, and none have any type of

989
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: working class representation. Bernie was talking about addressing this instead

990
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: of talking about those real issues. It was like, oh, well,

991
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: Bernie is a nutcase on the one hand, or you know,

992
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: Bernie is you know, a racist or a sexist on

993
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: the other hand, and we're still living with the consequences

994
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: of this organized demonization campaign against Bernie. That's a great point,

995
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: and I'd actually forgotten about that, I'll ed, so I'm

996
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: glad you raised it again. I mean, we have this, look.

997
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: I understand the importance of an independent FED. I get

998
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: that theoretically, but we play this game like the FED

999
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: is actually independent when it's not. Ken Clippenstein over at

1000
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 1: the Intercept just had a fantastic piece about all the

1001
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,839
Speaker 1: meetings they're taking with banking interests and all the off

1002
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,280
Speaker 1: the record meetings they're having with banking interests, So they're

1003
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: being lobbied by financial interests, they're allowed to have a say.

1004
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: Apparently they're not all, oh, hands off, it's independent. But

1005
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: when it comes to any sort of public, independent input,

1006
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 1: that's where oh, the FED is independent, and we can't

1007
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: hear whatsoever from the population about how these things are,

1008
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, on the political piece, unfortunately, I think that

1009
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: the Biden administration and most mainstream Democrats have basically bought

1010
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: into the Republican theory of inflation. That's why they're reluctant

1011
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 1: to put forward any economic agenda, positive economic agenda if

1012
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: they're able to hold onto power, which as a consequence

1013
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: of not doing that, they are much less likely to

1014
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 1: hold onto power. That's number one, and number two, there's

1015
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: no indication that Biden really has any issue with what

1016
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,760
Speaker 1: Jerome Palll is doing here, because outside of Elizabeth Warren

1017
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,479
Speaker 1: and maybe a handful of others, I really don't hear

1018
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 1: many Democrats raising a lot of concerns about the direction

1019
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: of FED policy. Yeah. I mean, we've just started to

1020
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: see a trickle of interests, you know, I mean the

1021
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: one person again, you know, I think it's the smarter

1022
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 1: people in the Democratic Party who understand this. So John Hickenlooper,

1023
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: who's basically a wholly owned subsidiary of the oil and

1024
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 1: gas industry, recognizes that higher interest rates is going to

1025
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 1: really hurt the oil and gas industry. You know. I

1026
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: mean some people would say that's a good thing. I

1027
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 1: would say, well, it's better to hurt the oil and

1028
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 1: gas industry by stopping drilling on federal lands or you know,

1029
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,879
Speaker 1: by you know, passing oil and gas extraction taxes as

1030
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: opposed to an ancillary effect of crushing the economy and

1031
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: the economy for ordinary workers. But yeah, you know, you

1032
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: have a small group of Democratic senators finally starting to

1033
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 1: peep up, you know, in a really important development, the

1034
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: AFL CIO finally spoke up yesterday to speak out against

1035
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: these FED rate hikes. But it's you know, it's very

1036
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: much too little, too late in so many cases, because

1037
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: this is really the type of stuff that should have

1038
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 1: been discussed, you know, back in May, when we have

1039
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 1: the lever you know, started talking about this. The moment

1040
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: that Powell started raising interest rates, we were covering it

1041
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: as an assault on workers, and we were pointing out

1042
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: that Powell was going after regular workers wages. The FED,

1043
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: which has incredible amounts of regulatory and supervisory authority over

1044
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:08,800
Speaker 1: banks was doing nothing to talk about the inflationary effects

1045
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 1: of banker bonuses, and particularly banker bonuses at banks with

1046
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 1: a long history or legacy of misconduct like Credit Sweez

1047
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: or Wells Fargo. There was nothing, you know, from the

1048
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: FED on that front, and there is nothing on that front.

1049
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: And that's very deliberate. How is totally uninterested in going

1050
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 1: after his buddy is on Wall Street. He's interested in

1051
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: going after working class Americans. Well, these workers were getting

1052
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: a little bold, starting to organize, starting to agitate in

1053
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 1: all sorts of different ways. So had to get in

1054
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 1: there and discipline labor ultimately, So I think your framing

1055
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 1: is of class Warfares is the clearest one. Matthew, thank

1056
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. Thank you so much

1057
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: for our great reporting on this. Thanks so much, Christll.

1058
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: I appreciate your time, our pleasure, and thank you guys

1059
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: for watching. When we'll have more for you later