WEBVTT - Arthur Baker Part 2 0:00:00.230 --> 0:00:03.490 Questlove Show is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:19.079 You know, whenever I abruptly stop the show and I'm like, oh, man, 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:21.480 I got to come back in the future for part two. 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.779 And you listen are always like they're never coming back. Well, 0:00:24.820 --> 0:00:29.070 guess what? It's happened, ladies and gentlemen. This is part two. 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:34.140 of our interview with pioneer Arthur Baker. I will say 0:00:34.540 --> 0:00:38.090 that I believe when we last left, well, there's so. 0:00:38.030 --> 0:00:38.810 Much we left off. 0:00:39.830 --> 0:00:40.909 We didn't make it past 83. Right. 0:00:40.970 --> 0:00:43.070 We didn't even start. 0:00:42.890 --> 0:00:44.390 With Candy Girl. It's 2026 now. 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:46.540 But wait, I want you to finish your thing because 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:48.440 we were kind of in the middle. You were talking 0:00:48.460 --> 0:00:50.420 about you're still DJing in Miami. 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:54.910 Yeah. I'm DJing last night carrying records on the plane, Amir. 0:00:54.950 --> 0:00:57.010 You would not. How would you do that to yourself, man? 0:00:57.030 --> 0:01:00.350 Well, if you want to DJ in somewhat cool places, 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.180 they're all vinyl now. See? They are. 0:01:04.340 --> 0:01:04.840 Here's the thing. 0:01:05.180 --> 0:01:11.100 I mean, the world knows my affinity for collecting wax 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:11.680 and whatever. 0:01:11.819 --> 0:01:12.039 Yeah. 0:01:12.540 --> 0:01:14.340 Sure, it's on record that I have a couple hundred 0:01:14.390 --> 0:01:18.600 thousand records. However, now I feel like a fraud. Because 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:24.530 I don't think I've ever subscribed to the theory that... Yes, 0:01:24.830 --> 0:01:28.910 I do believe that at home, the frequency of music 0:01:28.930 --> 0:01:33.490 from vinyl is just way better. However, for nightclub life, 0:01:33.990 --> 0:01:37.590 and I'm certain that... Let's give an example. Def Jam 0:01:37.670 --> 0:01:41.920 definitely wasn't helping matters much by pressing Public Enemy's Fear 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.340 of a Black Planet on single vinyl. 0:01:44.459 --> 0:01:46.800 The grooves were this small. So. 0:01:47.830 --> 0:01:50.700 you know, even back then, no one did double albums 0:01:50.780 --> 0:01:53.080 for a single album. Right. Which is what they should 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:53.440 have been. 0:01:54.020 --> 0:01:54.520 Exactly. 0:01:54.620 --> 0:01:58.240 So my thing was that I, a lot of times 0:01:58.300 --> 0:02:01.280 because I wanted to spin album cuts, I just hated 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:05.540 the whole readjusting my EQ to keep the humming out and. 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:06.140 All that stuff. 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:12.720 And so I guess once I started spinning digitally with Serato, 0:02:12.780 --> 0:02:15.990 at least, all my prayers were answered sonically. 0:02:16.030 --> 0:02:16.250 Yeah. 0:02:16.790 --> 0:02:21.649 But, now that there's this movement of cats returning to 0:02:22.030 --> 0:02:25.489 45s and whatnot, it started with the 45 movement, and 0:02:25.810 --> 0:02:29.829 I get where I believe the genesis of it came from, 0:02:29.889 --> 0:02:34.150 which was basically to separate the music lovers from the 0:02:34.210 --> 0:02:35.210 button pushers. 0:02:35.710 --> 0:02:37.370 But there's no way. 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:39.239 You're going to tell me it's a better sonic experience. 0:02:39.300 --> 0:02:42.560 But also owning those records that other people don't have. 0:02:42.700 --> 0:02:46.490 So your records now are your... your weapon now. And 0:02:46.590 --> 0:02:47.950 anyone could have it digitally. 0:02:48.110 --> 0:02:51.130 But now cats are pressing up 45s as if... Yeah. 0:02:51.770 --> 0:02:56.110 And I blame that on the post-Bismarck-y Mardi Gras. 0:02:57.030 --> 0:02:58.600 Right. I hear you. 0:02:58.669 --> 0:02:59.650 That whole thing. 0:02:59.790 --> 0:03:04.710 But for you, you still find pleasure in carrying records? 0:03:04.730 --> 0:03:06.810 No, of course not. Come on. When I'm doing it 0:03:06.830 --> 0:03:09.340 in Miami, it's fine. I drive up in my car. 0:03:10.250 --> 0:03:14.120 I wheel them into the club. But Going on a 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:18.980 plane with two boxes of records like I did and 0:03:19.020 --> 0:03:21.359 not wanting to check them in, obviously, because you know 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:22.990 they're going to get stolen. I mean, I don't know 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.929 how many people lost their records. Paul Okenfall lost all 0:03:26.990 --> 0:03:28.829 his records going to Brazil and he had to make 0:03:28.870 --> 0:03:31.210 a call out to anyone out there to get his set. 0:03:31.290 --> 0:03:32.280 And this is like 25 years ago. 0:03:32.310 --> 0:03:33.350 I can't even imagine. 0:03:33.770 --> 0:03:36.910 I do play different stuff, though. I totally play different 0:03:36.930 --> 0:03:40.150 stuff because I play more for the heads, for sure. 0:03:40.170 --> 0:03:42.360 You also have to commit. And that's, that's the thing 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:43.360 that worries me now. 0:03:43.460 --> 0:03:46.839 Like right now I'm in a place where this computer 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:48.580 has eight terabytes of music. 0:03:48.660 --> 0:03:48.880 Yeah. 0:03:50.060 --> 0:03:54.570 Which, you know, it's almost like where I am now 0:03:54.690 --> 0:03:57.809 where I don't know what audience. 0:03:57.510 --> 0:04:00.910 I'm going to meet. Right. Now, normally I know at. 0:04:01.210 --> 0:04:03.870 Least for, and I can, I will say our era. 0:04:04.370 --> 0:04:07.250 I mean, I've been DJing since 83, 84, like as young. 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:07.360 Yeah. 0:04:07.380 --> 0:04:13.620 But, I know the general rule is house rules. Like 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:15.600 the DJ is the tastemaker. 0:04:15.740 --> 0:04:17.600 There's a selector. They're going to pick their. 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.670 But I think now at least past 97, 98, suddenly 0:04:21.700 --> 0:04:24.810 the customer is always right thing. Now I will say 0:04:24.850 --> 0:04:29.950 that 95% of the time I will ignore request or whatever. 0:04:29.970 --> 0:04:33.950 However. If it ain't going right or if it's a 0:04:33.990 --> 0:04:35.070 little slow, you might. 0:04:35.610 --> 0:04:35.910 Right. 0:04:36.010 --> 0:04:38.230 But at least with this, I have the insurance of, 0:04:39.250 --> 0:04:41.390 I can either play the Fat Boys or Taylor Swift. 0:04:41.410 --> 0:04:43.470 Yeah, yeah. But when you pick those records. 0:04:43.490 --> 0:04:46.390 No, you're screwed. You're screwed. And you have to, like, 0:04:46.910 --> 0:04:50.589 select for, like, anything that could come up. So, you know, 0:04:51.050 --> 0:04:54.330 I got my LCD sound system. It looks like there's 0:04:54.370 --> 0:04:57.390 some old punks, you know, old electro punks. And I 0:04:57.430 --> 0:04:59.860 got a lot of jazz. And I get my, you know, 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:01.830 I get my own records that I produce. So I 0:05:01.860 --> 0:05:04.640 got all the electro stuff. So I can always, if 0:05:04.700 --> 0:05:07.349 all else fails, I go to, like, Playing a rock, 0:05:07.390 --> 0:05:10.210 playing your own risk, you know, confusion, new order, I'll 0:05:10.230 --> 0:05:11.270 play an electro set. 0:05:11.510 --> 0:05:14.330 Are they aware that Arthur Baker is spinning? Or you're 0:05:14.350 --> 0:05:16.190 just like the cool guy in the club? 0:05:16.350 --> 0:05:19.800 No, the old guy in the club. Occasionally they do. 0:05:19.940 --> 0:05:23.360 Like at Dante's in Miami, you know, people come out 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:25.900 to see me DJ. That's it. But, you know, like 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.760 at New Blue now, they're trying to get that crowd, 0:05:29.820 --> 0:05:32.500 but it didn't happen yet. But occasionally, like if I'm 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.860 playing at a club, they don't know who the hell 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:37.660 I am, you know? But at a vinyl bar, they do. 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.400 That's the difference. When you're playing vinyl, people, it's more 0:05:41.420 --> 0:05:43.060 of a thing to come to hear me. When I'm 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:45.480 playing at a place in Ibiza or wherever, which I 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.219 don't do often, but when I do. 0:05:47.260 --> 0:05:48.169 They don't. 0:05:48.190 --> 0:05:50.469 There's a vinyl bar in New York City that I'm 0:05:50.510 --> 0:05:54.310 in love with, in which it's called All Blues, and 0:05:54.490 --> 0:05:59.270 they actually treat their records like concert here. Like, they'll announce, like, 0:05:59.270 --> 0:06:04.010 8 p.m. tonight, limited seating only, like, Miles Davis live 0:06:04.050 --> 0:06:04.890 at the Plug Nickel. 0:06:04.950 --> 0:06:05.150 Right. 0:06:05.510 --> 0:06:07.390 And literally, we walk in there. 0:06:07.610 --> 0:06:07.790 Yeah. 0:06:08.230 --> 0:06:09.890 It's like a movie theater. We'll sit. 0:06:10.270 --> 0:06:10.490 Wow. 0:06:10.650 --> 0:06:13.380 And you must be silent. You can't silent talk or anything. 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:13.940 No phones. 0:06:14.180 --> 0:06:16.400 Yeah. They'll have food and drink there for you. 0:06:16.420 --> 0:06:18.119 And a great sound system. 0:06:18.660 --> 0:06:18.940 Yeah. 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:23.419 And it's done on top end. You sit there and 0:06:23.460 --> 0:06:26.730 you listen to a jazz concert. 0:06:26.750 --> 0:06:26.930 Yeah. 0:06:27.470 --> 0:06:30.500 They have live records. night on one particular night where 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:30.860 you'll see. 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:33.770 They have all those sort of bootlegs of Miles all 0:06:33.810 --> 0:06:37.390 over the world with his lost quintet. 0:06:37.810 --> 0:06:40.450 Each night is a different theme. One night, it's all 0:06:40.490 --> 0:06:42.900 about romance. It's all slow music. So it's a great 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:43.660 date night spot. 0:06:43.860 --> 0:06:47.489 But for the most part, they will play.... 0:06:47.740 --> 0:06:50.080 I think the first time I went there, Commodore's Live 0:06:50.100 --> 0:06:51.349 from 77 was the thing. 0:06:51.380 --> 0:06:54.089 They'll do all live vinyl. 0:06:53.830 --> 0:06:55.800 They pick the music you go to yes. 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:57.719 They pick the music and you sit and listen well 0:06:57.779 --> 0:06:59.780 it's not like being at a bar and dancing or 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.240 whatever so there's no pressure to make people dance but 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.720 oh god if you're doing this then i i don't 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:07.580 want to return. 0:07:07.300 --> 0:07:09.250 The vinyl have to do it man i don't want 0:07:09.260 --> 0:07:10.290 to return the vinyl you. 0:07:10.190 --> 0:07:13.690 Know i would stay with that i would stay no 0:07:13.730 --> 0:07:17.020 vinyl bambada used to have a guy with He had 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:20.760 three people carrying like eight crates. He traveled with eight crates. 0:07:20.780 --> 0:07:22.400 Oh, you're supposed to have your boys with you. Yeah. 0:07:22.620 --> 0:07:24.790 I'm definitely not doing that. Okay. 0:07:24.850 --> 0:07:28.110 So one day I plan on interviewing Trevor Horn and 0:07:28.170 --> 0:07:31.390 picking his brain. But for right now, I mean, yes, 0:07:31.470 --> 0:07:34.290 I know that he kind of holds the technical crown 0:07:35.870 --> 0:07:41.640 as being the first person to sample a break and 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.400 use it because he had access to what the Sinclair here. 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:44.780 Yeah. 0:07:45.330 --> 0:07:47.840 Okay, so from what I've heard. 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.680 About this machine is that, you know, when it came out, 0:07:51.700 --> 0:07:56.720 it was this very unattainable, only select few privilege that 0:07:56.780 --> 0:08:01.280 had the money to afford it, i.e. Herbie, Stevie, Prince, 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:07.280 Trevor himself had access to it. Would studios happen to have, like, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.930 when you first saw Sinclair got used to it or 0:08:10.990 --> 0:08:13.620 working with it, like, when did you first come across it? 0:08:13.930 --> 0:08:18.310 Okay, to just... The Fairlight, we had one at Intergalactic 0:08:18.390 --> 0:08:22.100 before Planet Rock. We used that for the orchestra. Okay. 0:08:22.210 --> 0:08:24.260 So the Fairlight was invented back in 81. 0:08:24.260 --> 0:08:24.460 Yeah. 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:24.820 Okay. 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:27.720 And that was a preset. They had samples. You couldn't 0:08:27.740 --> 0:08:30.960 really sample, but it was okay. Right. Sinclair Clavier, I 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.510 worked with the Sinclair Clavier with Hall & Oates on 0:08:34.550 --> 0:08:35.330 Big Bam Boom. 0:08:35.710 --> 0:08:36.170 Out of touch? 0:08:36.470 --> 0:08:36.950 Out of touch. 0:08:37.010 --> 0:08:37.130 Okay. 0:08:37.150 --> 0:08:39.229 But the whole album, we were sampling. We went in. 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.740 With Jimmy Braylower, who was a drummer, but was also 0:08:42.780 --> 0:08:45.540 getting into the sampling. We had a sample guy from 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:49.200 Sinclair come in. We were at Electric Lady Studios. We 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:53.420 brought Sinclair in. And then Hall & Oates actually bought one. 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:54.520 How much were they? 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:56.900 I don't know, $ 100, 000. Oh, it was over $ 10, 000? 0:08:56.740 --> 0:08:58.400 Oh, it was way over $ 10, 000. You'd have to check, 0:08:58.460 --> 0:08:58.940 but it was. 0:08:58.900 --> 0:09:00.520 Definitely way over $ 10, 000. How big was it? It was 0:09:00.540 --> 0:09:11.510 like this, you know. But my point is we bought one, 0:09:11.550 --> 0:09:13.990 they left it in my studio, and we just kept 0:09:14.070 --> 0:09:16.630 plants on it. It was like Daryl said, it was 0:09:16.670 --> 0:09:19.790 like the most expensive plant holder. We didn't end up 0:09:19.929 --> 0:09:20.310 using it. 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:22.020 You buy an exercise bike for your crib and it 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:22.660 becomes a. 0:09:23.460 --> 0:09:26.220 When we got it, it was like the novelty of 0:09:26.740 --> 0:09:30.760 sampling vocals and making like drum beats. We were using 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.980 it as a... human beatbox holder you know we were 0:09:34.020 --> 0:09:37.760 sampling we'd go ah boom ah and we'd do that 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:39.319 and there's a few songs. 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.080 So is that the reason why i mean i've had 0:09:42.340 --> 0:09:45.200 bing bang boom but i know the out of touch 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.920 video yeah had those sort of latin rascally. 0:09:48.540 --> 0:09:51.670 Yeah yeah that's all you that's all you. 0:09:51.610 --> 0:09:54.370 Were yeah what i i was hired to be the 0:09:54.429 --> 0:09:57.750 arranger i didn't get a production credit because i already 0:09:57.790 --> 0:10:00.860 had a clear mountain hall and oats and T-Bone Walk. 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.959 They were all producers. So Mottola was managing me at 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.740 the time and basically said, listen, you know, pay me 0:10:07.780 --> 0:10:11.500 like 50 grand to be the arranger and do all my– 0:10:11.900 --> 0:10:14.800 I did sort of the remix stuff for the album. 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:17.700 So a lot of the tracks– And adult education. No, 0:10:17.740 --> 0:10:19.400 that wasn't on there. Method of Modern Love. 0:10:19.870 --> 0:10:20.150 Okay, cool. 0:10:20.370 --> 0:10:22.510 So that was my beat and that was my edits 0:10:22.550 --> 0:10:25.970 and stuff. But luckily, Daryl and I one night went 0:10:26.030 --> 0:10:28.550 in and we wrote a track. And the intro of 0:10:28.670 --> 0:10:32.170 Out of Touch, that sort of metal thing with Chichabala, 0:10:32.550 --> 0:10:35.120 I got half the writing and publishing on it. So basically, 0:10:35.150 --> 0:10:37.460 I had a song on the album. So I actually, 0:10:37.500 --> 0:10:39.780 instead of having a point on the album, I had publishing, 0:10:39.820 --> 0:10:41.220 which at least I got paid. Got you. 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:41.559 Okay. 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.559 But technically, we messed around with it. And Mickey Curry, 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.199 who was the drummer in the band- Mm-hmm. He was 0:10:48.250 --> 0:10:48.720 not happy. 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:50.300 Yeah, I was going to say, how do you feel? 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.460 No, he was the least happy of anyone. We sampled 0:10:53.500 --> 0:10:56.940 his drums. Claire Mountain made it all sound amazing, obviously. 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:00.520 But that was a moment because that was probably the 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:05.540 first record that used that technology. And we did use it, 0:11:05.750 --> 0:11:09.190 but it was definitely a marriage of both, of the 0:11:09.230 --> 0:11:11.990 samples and of Mickey's live playing, if you listen. 0:11:12.050 --> 0:11:15.929 You know. Okay, so I knew of Bob and Malcolm... 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:18.660 The Stevie Wonder guys. Yeah, doing stuff with Stevie Wonder 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:19.920 and the Isley Brothers. 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.720 And they explained to me that synthesizers, like the early 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.240 age of computers in which a computer was a room. 0:11:26.100 --> 0:11:28.040 And now it's inside this one box. 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:34.070 So was the Sinclair supposed to be like, now you 0:11:34.090 --> 0:11:37.430 can make your Stevie Wonder dreams come true in this one? 0:11:37.450 --> 0:11:39.230 I don't know if it was sold that way. I 0:11:39.270 --> 0:11:41.630 just think it was sold as this thing where you 0:11:41.670 --> 0:11:45.500 could actually now sample and program. And you could. 0:11:46.140 --> 0:11:47.980 How long did it take you to learn, like go 0:11:48.020 --> 0:11:50.479 through the writer's manual and figure out what it was? 0:11:50.580 --> 0:11:52.900 I'm the wrong guy. I was not a tech. I'm 0:11:53.020 --> 0:11:57.120 the anti-tech tech guy. I like, we had the guy 0:11:57.179 --> 0:12:00.220 and I forget his name from Sinclair. Okay. 0:12:00.260 --> 0:12:01.250 So somebody would come in. 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:03.449 He came in and he did it all for, I mean, 0:12:03.490 --> 0:12:05.410 we told him what we want. I mean, with the 808, 0:12:05.410 --> 0:12:09.190 I programmed the 808, but this was way above my 0:12:09.230 --> 0:12:11.089 pay grade. There was no way I was going to 0:12:11.150 --> 0:12:13.930 sit and do it. I mean, we would, Let's sample that. 0:12:13.990 --> 0:12:15.990 Let's sample that. You know, it was more of a gimmick, 0:12:16.150 --> 0:12:18.710 I thought. But I mean, Trevor Horn made amazing records 0:12:18.850 --> 0:12:20.329 using it. I didn't do that. 0:12:20.910 --> 0:12:25.440 Now, at any point when you are kind of first 0:12:25.540 --> 0:12:28.520 out the gate to this new technology, at any point 0:12:28.780 --> 0:12:32.620 did it ever occur to you like, oh, I can 0:12:32.660 --> 0:12:36.850 make new records out of old records, i.e., what would 0:12:36.870 --> 0:12:40.370 happen if I sampled an entire four bar of this 0:12:40.410 --> 0:12:41.650 thing and looped it or whatever? 0:12:41.830 --> 0:12:42.950 Or was it just from the. 0:12:44.059 --> 0:12:46.760 I'm trying to think. I mean, we were already sampling 0:12:46.780 --> 0:12:48.540 with the emulator, you know, pre. 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.620 But you were sampling sounds. But I mean, in terms 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:52.260 of like a loop. 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:56.570 The loop thing did not come into my mind until 0:12:57.380 --> 0:12:59.900 maybe 85. 0:12:59.900 --> 0:13:01.070 I think. Okay. 0:13:01.429 --> 0:13:05.010 When it became more easier, accessible to loop stuff, you know. 0:13:05.030 --> 0:13:08.730 Back then, with the Synclavia, no, I didn't. I'll be honest. 0:13:08.809 --> 0:13:10.750 I didn't think of it. Even when I did put 0:13:10.770 --> 0:13:13.290 the needle to the record, that track, We weren't even 0:13:13.350 --> 0:13:16.230 looping then. We had Gayle Sky King, the late Gayle 0:13:16.250 --> 0:13:19.870 Sky King. She rode the record in. We did the 0:13:19.910 --> 0:13:21.690 same type of thing, but she rode the record in. 0:13:21.710 --> 0:13:23.490 We'd stop when it would go out of time, and 0:13:23.530 --> 0:13:25.430 we'd keep riding the record in. 0:13:25.510 --> 0:13:25.710 Really? 0:13:25.730 --> 0:13:25.810 Yeah. 0:13:25.970 --> 0:13:26.809 And just punch in? 0:13:27.050 --> 0:13:27.910 And punch in, yeah. 0:13:27.929 --> 0:13:28.710 For what song? 0:13:29.170 --> 0:13:31.590 Put the needle to the record, Criminal Element Orchestra. Put 0:13:31.630 --> 0:13:33.189 the needle to the record, and the drum beats go 0:13:33.230 --> 0:13:35.690 like this. Really? Yeah, and we did it with that. 0:13:35.770 --> 0:13:38.209 And Keith LeBlanc was playing live drums, so she had 0:13:38.690 --> 0:13:40.770 to a click, but she had to ride the bass 0:13:40.830 --> 0:13:46.760 line from- that Motown classic disco break record. Really? 0:13:46.940 --> 0:13:49.180 Yeah. Okay. 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:52.880 And then after that, we got looping in 86, I think, 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:55.280 and I made a Criminal Aluminum Orchestra record, and I 0:13:55.320 --> 0:14:00.400 was looping Prince beats, and that was then. Okay. 0:14:01.059 --> 0:14:02.130 There's an EP of it. 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.280 There's six versions of the song on it, but from 0:14:05.940 --> 0:14:10.280 soup to nuts, can you... Tell me the story or 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:15.790 the chaos of how you managed to organize the James 0:14:15.870 --> 0:14:19.330 Brown Bambada sessions for. 0:14:19.350 --> 0:14:20.150 I didn't do that. 0:14:20.770 --> 0:14:21.350 No way. 0:14:21.970 --> 0:14:23.770 Nope. That's got to be you. 0:14:24.070 --> 0:14:24.290 Nope. 0:14:24.970 --> 0:14:26.810 It was meant to be me, but it wasn't me. 0:14:26.910 --> 0:14:29.410 I mean, but as your drum patches- Yeah, well, I 0:14:29.450 --> 0:14:30.370 did it all, man. 0:14:30.550 --> 0:14:33.470 No, that was Tommy Boy. I think Tom and his 0:14:33.550 --> 0:14:36.930 wife at the time did it. Really? Yeah. I did 0:14:36.950 --> 0:14:37.390 not do it. 0:14:37.860 --> 0:14:40.820 I would have put my entire- Well, I'm glad you didn't. 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:42.600 How did you feel about it when you heard it? 0:14:42.900 --> 0:14:45.680 Well, what I felt even worse about was I had 0:14:45.780 --> 0:14:52.200 signed James Brown before Tommy Boy. I signed him the streetwise. Wait, what? 0:14:52.420 --> 0:14:55.710 I had the contract and we promised him some money 0:14:55.870 --> 0:15:00.430 and then my partners messed up with the payment time. 0:15:00.990 --> 0:15:03.690 And I have the contract which said, well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 0:15:03.950 --> 0:15:04.890 You didn't send the check. 0:15:05.810 --> 0:15:06.170 Boom. 0:15:06.410 --> 0:15:08.200 So I have the proof, but yeah. 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:11.980 What would you have imagined that you would have done 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.320 with James Brown on Streetwise Records? 0:15:14.620 --> 0:15:18.780 Probably very similar to what the thing he did with Bambaataa, really. 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:20.560 I don't know. 0:15:20.580 --> 0:15:21.800 You know, I mean, it just. 0:15:22.350 --> 0:15:22.930 Oh, my God. 0:15:22.970 --> 0:15:25.470 Yeah, yeah. It's okay. 0:15:25.950 --> 0:15:28.430 This is one of those Mandela Effect moments where I 0:15:28.470 --> 0:15:30.930 swear to God, like, that was, like, one of your. 0:15:31.470 --> 0:15:35.250 Influenced by our records, for sure. But I didn't. Listen, 0:15:35.410 --> 0:15:38.740 I didn't care. You know, I said to Tom, we 0:15:38.750 --> 0:15:42.020 went up to hear New Edition. I brought Candy Girl 0:15:42.060 --> 0:15:43.060 up to the Bronx River. 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:43.460 Right. 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.080 Bambada plays Everyone Goes Wild. It was the night that 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.580 Force MDs, but they were called the Force MCs. 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:50.900 Right. 0:15:51.140 --> 0:15:53.410 And me and Tom both hear them, and I go, 0:15:53.990 --> 0:15:56.270 they're really good. And, you know, I said, but Tom, 0:15:56.310 --> 0:15:58.970 you can have them because I have New Edition. So 0:15:59.090 --> 0:16:01.550 I probably should have signed them too, and then when 0:16:01.610 --> 0:16:03.640 New Edition came, Left the. 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:05.900 So as you were taking the Candy Girl Wax to 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:06.850 test it in the Bronx. 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:08.910 Yeah. Jazzy Jay played it, actually. 0:16:08.990 --> 0:16:09.910 That's where you saw. 0:16:10.590 --> 0:16:11.710 Force MDs. 0:16:23.310 --> 0:16:26.250 When you complete a record and you give it to... 0:16:26.210 --> 0:16:28.110 Who are your three go-to guys? 0:16:28.250 --> 0:16:28.910 Mark Kamens. 0:16:29.390 --> 0:16:30.350 Okay. Where did he DJ? 0:16:30.390 --> 0:16:34.070 Danceteria. Okay. Okay. He was the guy who discovered Madonna. 0:16:34.140 --> 0:16:36.690 He produced everybody. 0:16:36.990 --> 0:16:37.330 Okay. 0:16:38.110 --> 0:16:39.310 Jelly Bean. Okay. 0:16:39.750 --> 0:16:41.150 Where did he mostly spend? 0:16:41.530 --> 0:16:42.290 Just the Funhouse. 0:16:42.550 --> 0:16:42.750 Okay. 0:16:43.010 --> 0:16:47.510 So I had Dance Terrier, Funhouse, and Paradise Garage, Larry Levin. Okay. 0:16:47.530 --> 0:16:49.210 So those were the three, and I would be able 0:16:49.230 --> 0:16:49.470 to get them. 0:16:49.490 --> 0:16:50.609 And they would blindly trust you? 0:16:50.630 --> 0:16:53.950 Yeah. Well, they wouldn't, like, not listen to it. They 0:16:53.970 --> 0:16:57.270 wouldn't just drop a needle on it. They would, like, yeah, 0:16:57.510 --> 0:16:59.640 and then they'd play it. But not only that, Jelly 0:16:59.660 --> 0:17:02.090 Bean would play the real, the real. which was like 0:17:02.140 --> 0:17:04.609 sort of a commitment. He had a reel-to-reel. 0:17:04.650 --> 0:17:06.170 So you could take a half inch? 0:17:06.609 --> 0:17:08.510 Yeah, I would bring a, no, it was a quarter 0:17:08.570 --> 0:17:11.830 inch tape. In the confusion video where I bring him 0:17:11.890 --> 0:17:14.570 the tape, that's reel. That's what we used to do. 0:17:15.390 --> 0:17:17.490 I'd bring him the tape of New Order Confusion, hand 0:17:17.550 --> 0:17:17.869 it to him. 0:17:17.890 --> 0:17:20.889 He could really play a reel in the club. Yeah, yeah. 0:17:20.910 --> 0:17:24.429 Larry had one too. Yeah, the quality was fine. They 0:17:24.450 --> 0:17:25.970 were right from the studio. 0:17:26.170 --> 0:17:27.709 Would they just let the song fade out? 0:17:27.790 --> 0:17:31.260 No, they were like, They knew what they were doing. 0:17:31.380 --> 0:17:32.700 You could spin a reel? Yeah. 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:34.520 Jelly Bean did. 0:17:35.220 --> 0:17:35.480 Wow. 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.180 I don't know if Larry did. I mean, Mark would 0:17:38.220 --> 0:17:41.389 play cassettes. He didn't have a reel at Danceteria, but 0:17:41.430 --> 0:17:42.410 he would play a cassette. 0:17:42.550 --> 0:17:43.330 Hiss and everything. 0:17:43.450 --> 0:17:46.169 Out of touch. I brought his first play out of 0:17:46.210 --> 0:17:47.750 touch on a cassette he played. 0:17:48.550 --> 0:17:50.570 Is it like when you finalize a mix before you 0:17:50.609 --> 0:17:52.109 master it, you want to see how it works or 0:17:52.130 --> 0:17:52.490 what should I do? 0:17:52.490 --> 0:17:53.710 No, this is when I was in the middle of 0:17:53.750 --> 0:17:57.000 the mix. I didn't know if it was done. My 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.880 studio was on 37th. All the clubs were like 12 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:01.540 blocks away. 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:02.520 You would play rough cuts. 0:18:02.740 --> 0:18:06.879 We'd play rough mixes and then we would like, it's 0:18:06.900 --> 0:18:09.090 the arrangement. It was more for arrangement when I'd do 0:18:09.130 --> 0:18:11.470 the drops because back then no one did these drops 0:18:11.530 --> 0:18:14.409 like we were doing. We'd take the drums out and 0:18:14.450 --> 0:18:17.070 people would go, you can't do that. But obviously that's 0:18:17.109 --> 0:18:19.409 what made the mixes. We drop out the drums and 0:18:19.430 --> 0:18:22.629 then the bass can. So basically I'd see how the 0:18:22.670 --> 0:18:24.910 crowd would react. If it reacted the way I thought 0:18:24.950 --> 0:18:28.270 it would, I'd keep the arrangement. But sonically you'd hear, 0:18:28.310 --> 0:18:30.929 is there enough kick? Is it, you know, and we 0:18:30.970 --> 0:18:33.000 had the key to the funhouse. So we would go down, 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:35.960 Jellybean did, we'd go down there with it empty, which 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.260 wouldn't really be great for judging sound. 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:38.629 And test it. 0:18:38.940 --> 0:18:41.640 Yeah, but we could test it. So we, yeah, Jellybean 0:18:41.660 --> 0:18:44.520 wouldn't play everybody's record. We were working on records together. 0:18:44.619 --> 0:18:47.590 So, you know, he, Number one, what was the best 0:18:48.510 --> 0:18:50.870 year for New York City club life? 0:18:51.390 --> 0:18:55.119 I would say 82 or 83. For me, for my world. 0:18:55.130 --> 0:18:56.840 Studio 54 was not my world. 0:18:56.910 --> 0:18:59.040 I know that. So I want to know that close period. 0:18:59.060 --> 0:19:04.159 That was Jive. I mean, the thing was, you could 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:08.540 do those three clubs that I mentioned, which is Danceteria, Funhouse, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.580 Paradise Garage. You could do all three in one night. 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.540 And to me, those are three of the best clubs ever. 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:19.000 And you could go, you could travel amongst those. Because 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:23.540 Larry was playing until, you know, daybreak. And Danceteria was like, 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.230 you could go early. They had food. They had a 0:19:26.290 --> 0:19:29.129 bunch of floors. And there was a reggae floor. You know, 0:19:29.150 --> 0:19:29.290 I mean. 0:19:29.310 --> 0:19:29.790 They had food? 0:19:29.810 --> 0:19:31.950 They had food. They had some food, you know. 0:19:32.450 --> 0:19:34.550 Like, I hear the one thing, oh, they had food there. 0:19:34.950 --> 0:19:35.490 But that's the thing. 0:19:35.510 --> 0:19:38.450 I want to know soup to nuts. All right, number one, 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.399 could you get in? I mean, the Laura's Studio 54 is, 0:19:41.460 --> 0:19:42.480 you can't get in. 0:19:42.660 --> 0:19:44.700 The Studio 54, you had to look right. 0:19:45.109 --> 0:19:48.600 Right, so for these three clubs, for Paradise Garage, whatever, 0:19:48.700 --> 0:19:50.270 is it still the whole. 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.090 Well, Paradise Garage was a members club. 0:19:52.930 --> 0:19:53.810 How do you become a member? 0:19:53.869 --> 0:19:56.220 You- Became a member. You know, you were a member. 0:19:57.960 --> 0:19:59.340 You got to know a guy that knows a guy. 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:03.510 Yeah, you remember. I mean, you could be industry like 0:20:03.650 --> 0:20:06.390 me and I just know the person at the door. 0:20:06.530 --> 0:20:08.129 You would get love. Yeah, I could get any. 0:20:08.490 --> 0:20:11.949 But a Bridge and Tunnel person. No. They still had 0:20:11.990 --> 0:20:12.780 to stand in line. 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.550 Bridge and Tunnel didn't go to Paradise Garage. Paradise Garage 0:20:16.730 --> 0:20:18.930 was gay, black, Puerto Rican. 0:20:19.130 --> 0:20:19.990 Right. 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.280 It was that. And it was really, you know. 0:20:22.300 --> 0:20:25.200 Okay, so where are the Bridge and Tunnel top 40 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:25.740 people going? 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:27.220 More the Funhouse. 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:29.680 So the Funhouse is a little more commercial? 0:20:30.060 --> 0:20:33.060 Well, yeah. I mean, Jelly Bean, then you saw what 0:20:33.300 --> 0:20:36.020 records he was mixing. You know, he was Paul McCartney and, 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.940 you know. He was an unbelievable DJ. Jelly Bean doesn't 0:20:39.980 --> 0:20:44.000 get the. The love as a DJ, he played everything. 0:20:44.619 --> 0:20:46.500 But Larry, the three of them, that's the other thing 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.199 you got to realize. They were all playing Clash records. 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:51.710 You know what I mean? They were playing Clash and 0:20:51.730 --> 0:20:55.050 they were playing James Brown and they were playing Freeze IOU. 0:20:55.090 --> 0:20:57.010 They were all playing across the board. 0:20:57.030 --> 0:20:58.730 So they were all open format DJs? 0:20:58.930 --> 0:20:59.810 All open format. 0:21:00.130 --> 0:21:00.330 Okay. 0:21:00.350 --> 0:21:05.750 So that was my vibe of what I wanted to hear. Obviously, 0:21:05.790 --> 0:21:09.440 Larry would end more disco music. and Mark played a 0:21:09.460 --> 0:21:12.400 little bit more rock and electro and jelly bean played across, 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.270 but each one of those clubs was very different, but 0:21:16.740 --> 0:21:19.630 you could travel amongst those clubs in one night. That 0:21:19.670 --> 0:21:21.850 was the thing. There was so many clubs in New York, 0:21:22.190 --> 0:21:24.869 better days, T Scott. I mean, there were these amazing 0:21:24.950 --> 0:21:26.050 clubs everywhere, you know. 0:21:26.369 --> 0:21:29.390 What was the better club for strictly just dancing? 0:21:30.730 --> 0:21:34.850 Ooh, not dance at area funnily enough. It's called that, but, uh, 0:21:35.460 --> 0:21:39.740 For sort of, well, you wouldn't even call it house dancing. No. Okay. 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:45.180 B-boy or sort of early B-boy breaking and kick dancing 0:21:45.220 --> 0:21:48.060 and all that. The young kids, they were all underage anyway, 0:21:48.100 --> 0:21:51.460 you know, at Funhaus. They were kids who were 15 years. 0:21:51.500 --> 0:21:54.440 Louis. Was carding a thing back then or was this. 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:56.420 Like- It was a mafia club. I mean, they didn't 0:21:56.460 --> 0:21:57.350 card anyone, you know. 0:21:57.369 --> 0:21:57.570 Okay. 0:21:57.940 --> 0:22:01.790 But Louis Vega tells me the story of him sitting 0:22:01.990 --> 0:22:05.530 in the base bin at the Funhaus and listening to 0:22:05.550 --> 0:22:08.889 Rocker's Revenge, How Did They Come, the first time he 0:22:08.930 --> 0:22:11.350 heard it. And he was in the basement, and he 0:22:11.390 --> 0:22:14.330 was just like, you know, I would just come there. 0:22:14.369 --> 0:22:17.370 How old were you? 15, 16 years old. So that 0:22:17.410 --> 0:22:19.870 was all young. It was Puerto Rican and Italian. 0:22:20.310 --> 0:22:20.510 Okay. 0:22:20.550 --> 0:22:24.050 That was the thing. It was a racist club. Black kids. 0:22:24.570 --> 0:22:25.330 Could barely get in. 0:22:25.430 --> 0:22:29.810 Could barely get in, yeah. I'm being totally like, the 0:22:29.869 --> 0:22:32.930 Funhouse was Puerto Rican and Italian. 0:22:33.710 --> 0:22:34.830 Was it mostly freestyle? 0:22:35.450 --> 0:22:37.880 Well, we started freestyle. There was no freestyle. 0:22:37.890 --> 0:22:41.040 I was going to say, you pioneered, damn near two 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:44.900 genres that I don't think you even parade that like, hey, 0:22:44.940 --> 0:22:48.300 I helped like, what we know is Miami-Base comes from 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:52.200 your contributions and what we now know as freestyle. 0:22:52.500 --> 0:22:54.879 Yeah, that sort of merged off. One was sort of 0:22:54.900 --> 0:22:58.830 more Latin and one was more black. That's the same thing. 0:22:58.869 --> 0:23:00.210 And then they went off like that. 0:23:00.830 --> 0:23:05.340 How long did it take you to track and record 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:09.360 Candy Girl. I'm so triggered after the James Brown thing. 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:11.720 I have to like, wait, he did produce Candy Girl, right? 0:23:11.740 --> 0:23:12.020 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:13.340 Did you produce the entire album? 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:17.200 I produced with Maurice Starr and Michael Johnson. They were 0:23:17.220 --> 0:23:21.670 the producers. They brought me demos, which we turned into 0:23:21.690 --> 0:23:24.510 the record in New York at Unique Studio. They were 0:23:24.550 --> 0:23:25.310 like demos. 0:23:25.330 --> 0:23:26.340 That's where it's recorded at? 0:23:26.470 --> 0:23:28.830 Well, that's where we finished it and where a lot 0:23:28.869 --> 0:23:34.080 of it was Mission Control in Boston, Maurice's studio. 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:36.360 Have you seen this clip? 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:38.020 Rehearsing? The rehearsal clip? 0:23:38.060 --> 0:23:42.330 They're playing drums and they're messing. So just working with them. 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:43.370 Yeah. 0:23:43.450 --> 0:23:46.970 And I'm assuming that it's Ralph, Ricky, and I'm assuming 0:23:46.990 --> 0:23:53.420 that Michael and both Michaels are singing background because there's 0:23:53.460 --> 0:23:55.820 no way those guys' voice. 0:23:55.540 --> 0:23:55.980 Is that low. 0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:58.120 No, Maurice and Michael were singing backwards. 0:23:58.140 --> 0:23:59.360 Oh, Maurice and Michael. I said both Michaels. 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:00.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:02.700 And actually, I think I do remember us talking about 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:04.869 this before, but I wanted to talk about the actual 0:24:04.900 --> 0:24:08.150 tracking of it. Like, how long would it take to, 0:24:08.750 --> 0:24:11.690 and pre-Pro Tools, pre-Auto-Tune? 0:24:12.570 --> 0:24:17.010 Well, you've heard the vocals, right? They're not really all 0:24:17.109 --> 0:24:19.370 that well in tune. We didn't even tune. 0:24:19.730 --> 0:24:22.550 Yeah, but there's still something charming about it. 0:24:22.550 --> 0:24:26.129 Oh, listen, listen. the charm, I'm not talking about charm, 0:24:26.170 --> 0:24:29.090 you know, like Latin freestyle, there isn't one song where 0:24:29.130 --> 0:24:31.080 the singers are in tune. I mean, come on, they're 0:24:31.150 --> 0:24:35.639 out of tune. That's the charm. But, um, no, Maurice 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:39.400 and Michael did sing most of the backgrounds and, you know, 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:41.620 they did it, you know, you know, it took some 0:24:41.660 --> 0:24:44.600 time for sure. It wasn't, it wasn't easy, but you know. 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:47.420 How long did it take to knock out the entire record? 0:24:48.140 --> 0:24:51.840 God, it was really quick. Once we, we signed Candy 0:24:51.859 --> 0:24:55.520 Girl and then, It blew up so quick. We had 0:24:55.540 --> 0:24:58.320 to like finish the album. I was working on mixing 0:24:58.380 --> 0:25:01.619 it in New York. We mixed everything. Maurice and Michael 0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:04.969 had done most of the vocals in Boston. That's why 0:25:05.010 --> 0:25:08.270 they lost the group because the group was signed under 0:25:08.310 --> 0:25:12.170 Boston law and it was done in Boston, Massachusetts. So 0:25:13.010 --> 0:25:14.910 the law, I mean, did. 0:25:14.810 --> 0:25:16.130 We- That's how they got, no, no. 0:25:16.570 --> 0:25:19.150 I didn't know how they, we lightly touched on, we 0:25:19.190 --> 0:25:20.410 talked about you getting the demo. 0:25:21.010 --> 0:25:23.270 But you brought something up. And yes, I know I'm 0:25:23.350 --> 0:25:26.930 skipping Beat Street to refer to another film. 0:25:27.820 --> 0:25:30.220 But I always wanted to know, the story of Crush 0:25:30.260 --> 0:25:36.379 Groove is in that film, the Russell character has a 0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:40.450 successful record. It's so successful, he doesn't have enough money 0:25:41.150 --> 0:25:45.070 to feed the entire nation and the world. 0:25:44.770 --> 0:25:45.169 To do it. Yeah. 0:25:47.460 --> 0:25:50.629 Is the Candy Girl album a great example of the 0:25:50.750 --> 0:25:55.990 burden of not being prepared for a massive moment? 0:25:56.170 --> 0:25:56.410 Yeah. 0:25:56.830 --> 0:25:57.700 How do you handle it? 0:25:57.790 --> 0:26:00.070 If you own your label and suddenly, is there a 0:26:00.130 --> 0:26:02.050 burden when you have a successful record? 0:26:02.070 --> 0:26:04.040 Yeah, because first of all, you have to give people, 0:26:04.640 --> 0:26:09.560 people want credit. Like the distributors want credit. We need 0:26:09.560 --> 0:26:13.859 25,000 records. We'll pay you the cost of the record 0:26:13.900 --> 0:26:17.320 for the pressing, but we won't pay you Some of 0:26:17.359 --> 0:26:19.879 them were fronting us the money just enough for us 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:21.460 to pay the pressing costs. 0:26:21.580 --> 0:26:23.639 So you didn't have to have the upfront money to 0:26:23.680 --> 0:26:24.290 order the records. 0:26:24.380 --> 0:26:28.050 Well, we did. But then at one point, we said, 0:26:28.130 --> 0:26:31.490 forget it. It's fine. We were just like thinking, we 0:26:31.510 --> 0:26:33.869 want to sell records. And then a few of the 0:26:33.930 --> 0:26:38.620 distributors ended up going bankrupt, owing us like 50 grand, 0:26:38.619 --> 0:26:42.560 100 grand. And that's why Streetwise ended up going bust because- 0:26:43.369 --> 0:26:45.250 New Edition album killed the label. 0:26:45.369 --> 0:26:48.189 Okay, explain to me, is that a good thing or 0:26:48.210 --> 0:26:49.010 a bad thing? 0:26:49.170 --> 0:26:54.359 It's a horrible thing because our team wasn't prepared and 0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:59.000 had never experienced that kind of success so that they 0:26:59.220 --> 0:27:04.119 didn't know what to watch out for. We were pressing, pressing, pressing, 0:27:04.160 --> 0:27:06.960 and we were paying the pressing plant until we weren't 0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:10.719 because we weren't getting paid. So it was just like... 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:12.030 How can one. 0:27:13.260 --> 0:27:16.520 sort of navigate that wave. Like Motown did it. I 0:27:17.030 --> 0:27:19.270 don't know how they did it, but they somehow managed 0:27:19.369 --> 0:27:23.310 to stay in business and all those things. But when 0:27:23.369 --> 0:27:26.209 something gets so successful, like when did you know that 0:27:26.290 --> 0:27:29.840 Streetwise was over because you're too successful? And how do 0:27:29.859 --> 0:27:33.460 you nuance that to benefit you? Like such a victory. 0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:34.280 That you failed. 0:27:34.300 --> 0:27:37.420 Listen, I'm the wrong... In the book, I talk about 0:27:37.460 --> 0:27:41.870 the disaster because basically what happened was, in a nutshell... 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:44.980 I started doing a lot of remixes. I stopped paying 0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:46.480 attention to the label, right? 0:27:46.700 --> 0:27:46.960 Okay. 0:27:47.260 --> 0:27:50.140 So basically, we're having the success. I'm out there remixing 0:27:50.160 --> 0:27:53.890 the Rolling Stones for $ 25, 000 and doing a lot of drugs. 0:27:54.250 --> 0:27:59.530 And then my partners start signing records and throwing money around. 0:27:59.590 --> 0:28:01.949 And before I know it, they're doing A & R, 0:28:01.990 --> 0:28:05.150 and we've got like 10 acts. They put out $ 100, 000 0:28:05.050 --> 0:28:09.720 on new music that is shit. So basically, I just 0:28:09.800 --> 0:28:13.520 lost focus on the label. And so I'll blame myself 0:28:14.000 --> 0:28:15.940 for part of it. And then the other part was 0:28:16.420 --> 0:28:19.510 giving people too much credit on the new edition on 0:28:19.550 --> 0:28:23.389 the album. Because, you know, the album sold over, definitely 0:28:23.410 --> 0:28:27.010 sold over a half a million, you know. And a 0:28:27.050 --> 0:28:31.370 lot of people left us holding the bag. Distributor called Stans, 0:28:31.470 --> 0:28:32.310 and I think was in. 0:28:34.470 --> 0:28:38.270 Louisiana maybe stands, and there were a few that went 0:28:38.330 --> 0:28:40.170 bust owing us hundreds of thousands. 0:28:40.830 --> 0:28:46.260 Back in the mid-' 70s, early-' 80s, how many distribution centers were there? 0:28:47.040 --> 0:28:50.940 Well, each region had at least one or two. They'd 0:28:50.980 --> 0:28:55.260 have big distributors. I mean, there'd be distributors and one-stops. 0:28:55.340 --> 0:28:58.690 Like the one-stops would get the records from– you would 0:28:58.730 --> 0:29:02.110 sell your records into a one-stop because– Why they're called 0:29:02.210 --> 0:29:06.910 one-stops is it was one-stop where mom-and-pop record shops could 0:29:06.950 --> 0:29:10.830 get any label from the one-stop. Some distributors just had 0:29:10.910 --> 0:29:15.410 specific labels. One-stops had every label. Like Warner's would sell in. 0:29:16.030 --> 0:29:18.450 Streetwise would sell in Tommy Boy. But it would be 0:29:19.130 --> 0:29:22.730 for a small record label, you couldn't get credit from 0:29:23.080 --> 0:29:24.520 the major directly. 0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:25.170 You had to go. 0:29:25.100 --> 0:29:27.420 Through these things called one-stops. 0:29:28.020 --> 0:29:31.530 And I'm only asking because... I didn't realize. Okay, so 0:29:31.650 --> 0:29:36.720 I'll say probably in my lifetime, I might have Stevie 0:29:36.740 --> 0:29:39.580 Wonder's songs in the key of life eight or nine times. 0:29:39.620 --> 0:29:39.739 Yeah. 0:29:40.510 --> 0:29:44.480 And I noticed that each record has different fonts, different. 0:29:45.140 --> 0:29:48.420 And when I asked, it wasn't Iris Gorey, either Suzanne 0:29:48.460 --> 0:29:50.640 or Iris, I asked like, how come you guys never 0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:55.760 had a consistent font or hue. 0:29:54.460 --> 0:29:55.410 Color for your labels? 0:29:55.430 --> 0:29:55.550 Right. 0:29:56.110 --> 0:29:58.070 And she would say, oh, because we would. 0:29:58.130 --> 0:30:00.210 Use- Using different pressing plants and stuff. 0:30:00.290 --> 0:30:05.010 Various pressing plants. And it was up to them on how- Yeah. 0:30:05.450 --> 0:30:07.930 Was that just typical of like, if you want to 0:30:07.970 --> 0:30:10.990 sell Candy Girl in Florida, do you have to press 0:30:11.070 --> 0:30:13.190 it at the plant in Florida to get it? 0:30:13.190 --> 0:30:17.180 We were pretty much using Soundmakers in Philly. That was 0:30:17.220 --> 0:30:19.900 the big one in Philly. We may have used others, 0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:23.270 but to me, that's the one I remember. Right. Because 0:30:23.290 --> 0:30:24.969 the more you use, the more the chance that they 0:30:24.990 --> 0:30:28.030 could just press up unlimited records. I mean, that was 0:30:28.070 --> 0:30:28.890 the other thing that. 0:30:29.070 --> 0:30:31.570 When would you have power to button line? Like, hey, 0:30:31.590 --> 0:30:34.410 I have a new Prince record. Oh, sorry, guys. Yeah, 0:30:34.470 --> 0:30:34.870 you could. 0:30:35.130 --> 0:30:35.490 You could. 0:30:35.770 --> 0:30:35.990 Okay. 0:30:36.510 --> 0:30:39.070 But what I'm trying to say is you were trusting 0:30:39.790 --> 0:30:43.350 people who you really shouldn't be trusting. Any pressing plan 0:30:43.390 --> 0:30:47.410 could press up 5,000 and sell them- Oh. 0:30:47.450 --> 0:30:49.070 The whole Morris Levy situation. 0:30:49.110 --> 0:30:51.709 Yeah, well, he was my partner in Streetwise, right? 0:31:03.270 --> 0:31:05.730 Back to my crush group question. Like, at what point 0:31:05.810 --> 0:31:09.430 do you go to a guy that can help you? 0:31:10.130 --> 0:31:12.710 Somehow he came to me, I think. Like, you know, 0:31:12.750 --> 0:31:15.940 it is a long time ago, but all I remember 0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:18.620 is Tommy Mottola, who was my manager at the time. 0:31:18.680 --> 0:31:21.760 He said, you don't want to do this with Morris. 0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:23.260 And Tommy Mottola's telling you this. 0:31:23.300 --> 0:31:23.880 Yeah, yeah. 0:31:25.510 --> 0:31:27.890 Wait, wasn't he also managing Hall & Oates at one point? 0:31:27.930 --> 0:31:29.790 Yeah, at the same time. That's how I knew. 0:31:29.810 --> 0:31:30.590 Oh, that's, okay. 0:31:30.630 --> 0:31:34.310 So he was managing Hall & Oates, myself, August Darnell. 0:31:34.670 --> 0:31:36.950 Hence the Tommy Mottola. 0:31:36.990 --> 0:31:39.280 Yeah, lives down the road. But yeah. 0:31:39.390 --> 0:31:43.900 She, by the way, she is our financial person at 0:31:43.920 --> 0:31:48.660 the Tonight Show. My first month at the Tonight Show, 0:31:49.220 --> 0:31:52.780 Tariq and I happened to be on the elevator going somewhere. 0:31:53.120 --> 0:31:55.140 And this woman's on the elevator. 0:31:55.760 --> 0:31:57.240 And she's like, oh, my God. Like, I'm a fan 0:31:57.280 --> 0:31:58.160 of the Roots and all that stuff. 0:31:58.180 --> 0:31:59.060 Corey Day? No. 0:31:59.200 --> 0:32:01.700 Who? She ended it with, oh, you guys wouldn't know me. 0:32:01.820 --> 0:32:04.420 I sang a song. Oh, the rapper sang, you know, 0:32:04.460 --> 0:32:06.210 Tommy Mottola lives on the road. 0:32:06.230 --> 0:32:06.750 Corey Day was. 0:32:07.230 --> 0:32:07.730 I was like. 0:32:07.950 --> 0:32:08.170 What? 0:32:08.410 --> 0:32:10.570 Wait, we know who you are. And I told her, like, 0:32:10.590 --> 0:32:11.690 she said, hey, don't. I was like. 0:32:11.710 --> 0:32:11.830 Yeah. 0:32:12.390 --> 0:32:15.340 I own Dr. Buzzer Records. I know. And she, yeah. 0:32:15.410 --> 0:32:17.540 And she had that solo record with Pow Wow. 0:32:17.580 --> 0:32:17.940 Yes. 0:32:18.380 --> 0:32:19.320 It's a dope track. 0:32:19.340 --> 0:32:22.200 Yeah, yeah. But no, she's the reason why we get 0:32:22.220 --> 0:32:24.920 paid every week at the Tonight Show. Wow. She works there. 0:32:24.940 --> 0:32:25.980 That is random. 0:32:26.240 --> 0:32:26.720 So random. 0:32:26.980 --> 0:32:29.000 But yeah, Tommy said, you don't want to do this. 0:32:29.100 --> 0:32:31.290 And I was like, yeah, but otherwise the label's just 0:32:31.330 --> 0:32:36.230 going to go under. So yeah, I have the Morris stories. 0:32:36.470 --> 0:32:38.690 I'd go to have a meeting with him flying out 0:32:38.730 --> 0:32:41.100 of my mind on cocaine and And I'd walk in 0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:43.719 and say, hey, Arthur, come on in. And it'd be 0:32:43.760 --> 0:32:46.310 like the Sopranos, the guys. 0:32:46.740 --> 0:32:46.960 Right. 0:32:47.240 --> 0:32:48.070 The real guys. 0:32:48.330 --> 0:32:48.550 Uh-huh. 0:32:48.750 --> 0:32:51.330 With the chains and with the sweatsuits. And they'd be there. 0:32:51.350 --> 0:32:54.710 And then I'd be there knowing that I'm really fucking 0:32:55.050 --> 0:32:58.610 drugged out. And him telling stories about Tommy James and 0:32:58.630 --> 0:33:02.030 the Shondells, how he got Tommy, he got him clean. 0:33:02.050 --> 0:33:09.360 And then he never had another fucking hit. Yeah. I 0:33:09.380 --> 0:33:13.420 went up to the farm. I had the sausages. And 0:33:13.440 --> 0:33:15.219 then he sort of took the label. 0:33:16.200 --> 0:33:20.980 How long did Streetwise last after you left it? 0:33:21.430 --> 0:33:26.650 Well, they didn't sign new acts. It became just swallowed 0:33:26.710 --> 0:33:30.840 up as a catalog. They still, the people he sold 0:33:30.920 --> 0:33:33.800 it to, Well, his son had it, then another company 0:33:33.840 --> 0:33:34.460 has it now. 0:33:34.600 --> 0:33:37.500 So to this day, if I want a Candy Girl record, 0:33:37.660 --> 0:33:38.710 like who owns it? 0:33:39.320 --> 0:33:41.160 Candy Girl is MCA. 0:33:41.740 --> 0:33:45.170 So they- Yeah, they got- So when they went to MCA, 0:33:45.210 --> 0:33:47.830 did they also subsequently have to pay you to get 0:33:47.910 --> 0:33:48.470 out the label? 0:33:48.490 --> 0:33:51.930 Well, they paid Morris. That was the whole- Got you. 0:33:52.030 --> 0:33:56.410 The whole game was he got Streetwise so he could 0:33:57.220 --> 0:34:00.719 get a shitload of money out of MCA when- the 0:34:00.790 --> 0:34:05.110 new edition signed and, you know, he, MCA was known 0:34:05.250 --> 0:34:10.049 as a, as a mafia major. So, you know, I mean, 0:34:10.110 --> 0:34:13.009 we could say that now I would say it, you know, 0:34:13.610 --> 0:34:16.430 so they had, you know, it was, it's, it's, it's 0:34:16.450 --> 0:34:19.870 a moment in time that I don't like reliving really. 0:34:19.890 --> 0:34:21.510 No, no, it's okay. 0:34:21.870 --> 0:34:24.169 It's just like, I so messed up that whole thing 0:34:24.210 --> 0:34:27.990 that I, you know, I had ADHD and on cocaine. 0:34:28.670 --> 0:34:32.580 Like, I know as a band, like, you know, this 0:34:32.760 --> 0:34:35.020 New Order, Depeche Mode, like, I don't even know what 0:34:35.040 --> 0:34:36.050 to categorize it. 0:34:36.860 --> 0:34:39.180 It's part electro. It's part rock. 0:34:39.260 --> 0:34:42.920 Indie, indie, schmindy, electro indie. 0:34:43.180 --> 0:34:45.160 All right. So can you talk about working with New 0:34:45.260 --> 0:34:48.330 Order and how, like. How it happened? 0:34:48.350 --> 0:34:48.750 Oh, God. 0:34:48.790 --> 0:34:51.489 I can't believe I sound like it. such an amateur here. 0:34:51.730 --> 0:34:54.170 Like explain to me the relevance of it. But like, 0:34:54.219 --> 0:34:56.819 I know they mean the world to people and I've 0:34:56.860 --> 0:34:57.299 seen them. 0:34:57.380 --> 0:34:59.759 They've been on the show a few times, whatever. But 0:34:59.940 --> 0:35:03.200 just in general, like how did they come to your attention? 0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:07.320 Well, a friend of mine, Michael Schamberg, the late Michael Schamberg, 0:35:07.400 --> 0:35:11.649 he knew, we knew each other from Danceteria. We just, 0:35:11.810 --> 0:35:15.650 just knew each other. And he was, he started factory 0:35:15.930 --> 0:35:19.300 New York. Uh, they had a factory records was, um, 0:35:20.239 --> 0:35:25.080 In the UK, in Manchester. And basically, New Order had 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:28.870 been Joy Division. And on the eve of them coming 0:35:28.910 --> 0:35:33.850 to America to tour, Ian Curtis committed suicide. They shift, 0:35:34.090 --> 0:35:36.910 make a new group called New Order. They're making records. 0:35:36.950 --> 0:35:40.140 They're releasing them over. And they have an office here, 0:35:40.160 --> 0:35:43.839 a small office. And Michael was like, you should work 0:35:43.900 --> 0:35:46.200 with New Order. And he brought them up. And I 0:35:46.239 --> 0:35:49.180 had had Planet Rock. And they loved the idea. Now, 0:35:49.239 --> 0:35:50.920 this is why they wanted to work with me, which 0:35:51.000 --> 0:35:54.279 is actually pretty funny. We had to settle with Kraftwerk 0:35:54.300 --> 0:35:56.080 for the melody on Planet Rock. 0:35:56.660 --> 0:35:56.859 Yeah. 0:35:57.000 --> 0:36:02.260 And Tom Silverman decided to charge a dollar more than 0:36:02.680 --> 0:36:06.219 what we would... Basically, the fans, the buyers, had to 0:36:06.260 --> 0:36:08.510 pay a dollar more for Planet Rock so we could 0:36:08.570 --> 0:36:10.109 pay Kraftwerk. 0:36:10.210 --> 0:36:10.589 Right, okay. 0:36:10.630 --> 0:36:14.090 Now, New Order thought that was so cool. Obviously, I 0:36:14.130 --> 0:36:16.069 had nothing to do with it, but that's why they 0:36:16.110 --> 0:36:17.350 wanted to work with me, which is. 0:36:18.840 --> 0:36:19.359 That's the order. 0:36:19.380 --> 0:36:20.200 Because you charge more money? 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:23.700 Well, because we worked, whatever. That's what I was always told. 0:36:23.719 --> 0:36:27.530 Then they come over and they'd send me all these demos. 0:36:27.610 --> 0:36:29.370 I'd never even listened to the demos. I was like, 0:36:29.510 --> 0:36:32.890 let's write together. Started writing with them and we wrote 0:36:33.590 --> 0:36:37.930 Confusion and Thieves Like Us at Fred Czar's studio in Brooklyn, 0:36:38.070 --> 0:36:41.140 demo studio. And then we went in and we recorded and, 0:36:41.630 --> 0:36:45.670 you know, I mean, you know, Confusion is like, I 0:36:45.710 --> 0:36:48.240 always call it new Arthur, not new order, because it's 0:36:48.280 --> 0:36:51.560 really my record, all the beats and a lot of 0:36:51.600 --> 0:36:54.040 the chants and the rat-a-tata, you know, it was all 0:36:54.080 --> 0:36:57.480 that stuff from Planet Rock. You know, I incorporated that 0:36:57.560 --> 0:36:59.920 into their sound. 0:37:00.100 --> 0:37:03.450 Was the big deal of it all the fact that 0:37:04.510 --> 0:37:07.590 rock groups were, I mean, now that I understand. 0:37:07.810 --> 0:37:09.730 But they weren't a standard. 0:37:10.370 --> 0:37:12.469 See, that's the thing. If I see white people, I 0:37:12.469 --> 0:37:13.850 just say, oh, rock people or pop people. 0:37:14.550 --> 0:37:19.040 But you have to understand that Manchester is closer to 0:37:19.440 --> 0:37:22.340 New York than to London in a way at that time. 0:37:22.880 --> 0:37:25.419 And they were very open. And that's why the Housienda, 0:37:25.440 --> 0:37:30.060 which is probably the most famous club in the UK, 0:37:30.570 --> 0:37:36.050 was in Manchester. Because they were influenced by Danceteria, Paradise Garage, 0:37:36.390 --> 0:37:39.850 and Funhaus, all of which I took them to. And 0:37:39.870 --> 0:37:43.050 they opened up a club that would be their version 0:37:43.140 --> 0:37:43.340 of it. 0:37:43.750 --> 0:37:46.750 So this is also why, like, Pet Shop Boys and 0:37:46.770 --> 0:37:48.750 all these groups that are coming out the time. Yeah. 0:37:48.810 --> 0:37:52.030 And, well, even to the point where, okay, Happy Mondays. 0:37:52.469 --> 0:37:52.739 Right. 0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:56.399 Stone Roses. These are rock bands that were dance groups, too, 0:37:56.500 --> 0:37:59.680 you know? They all played dance music. To the extent 0:37:59.719 --> 0:38:02.710 that Noel Gallagher is a fan of when he met me, 0:38:02.770 --> 0:38:05.220 he was like, Because of dance music. 0:38:05.239 --> 0:38:08.880 You humbled Noel Gallagher? Yeah, I did. Tell this story. 0:38:08.900 --> 0:38:12.220 He kissed my ring, I have to say. Nice. He did, 0:38:12.260 --> 0:38:12.560 you know. 0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:13.969 Okay, so he is humble. 0:38:14.219 --> 0:38:16.629 He grew up in Manchester and all those guys were 0:38:16.670 --> 0:38:21.150 going to the Hacienda, doing ease and partying. And that 0:38:21.190 --> 0:38:25.950 was like 88, 89, you know. So the British culture 0:38:25.989 --> 0:38:29.060 is so different than here because, I mean, a few 0:38:29.120 --> 0:38:31.700 rock bands, Red Hot Chili Peppers, there are rock bands 0:38:31.739 --> 0:38:35.540 here that are into... Funkin'. Funkin', you know. But in England, 0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:39.480 it was because all the music was played on Top 0:38:39.500 --> 0:38:42.600 of the Pops, Radio 1. And you would hear everything 0:38:42.660 --> 0:38:45.540 growing up. It's totally different than here. You would hear, 0:38:45.560 --> 0:38:48.100 and it was all played because it was all in 0:38:48.140 --> 0:38:50.360 the top 20, you know. And you would play it, 0:38:50.420 --> 0:38:54.020 and you'd see the groups, and people of all ages 0:38:54.060 --> 0:38:56.880 would sit there, your parents and your granny, and everyone 0:38:56.920 --> 0:38:59.460 would watch Top of the Pops. So I think that 0:38:59.500 --> 0:39:02.660 had a lot to do with the fact that rock acts... 0:39:03.219 --> 0:39:05.859 will want to make dance records. I mean, they, you know, 0:39:06.030 --> 0:39:06.410 they did. 0:39:06.430 --> 0:39:10.750 I think maybe in the last 10 years, especially, there's 0:39:10.770 --> 0:39:14.310 a lot of content on social media and some documentaries 0:39:14.370 --> 0:39:17.069 in which, I mean, I've always heard about like the 0:39:17.250 --> 0:39:21.300 Disco Demolition Night or whatever. So I never once put it, 0:39:21.890 --> 0:39:23.950 like I always thought the anti-disco movement. 0:39:23.969 --> 0:39:25.390 That was racist though. Right. 0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:26.239 Here's the thing, though. 0:39:26.300 --> 0:39:30.120 And the music thing in England, there's no racism. That's 0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:34.330 what you have to, like, think that in England, musically, 0:39:34.910 --> 0:39:38.430 there was never any racism, okay? Everyone was open to everything. 0:39:38.469 --> 0:39:40.700 I'm telling you, the reggae thing, you know. 0:39:41.100 --> 0:39:41.680 That's the thing. 0:39:41.780 --> 0:39:44.770 I just thought, oh, disco sucks because they hate the 0:39:44.810 --> 0:39:47.210 arrangements or it's repetitive for 14 minutes. 0:39:47.230 --> 0:39:50.069 Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye weren't disco. They would burn 0:39:50.170 --> 0:39:51.730 anything with a black face on it. 0:39:52.130 --> 0:39:52.410 Right. 0:39:52.489 --> 0:39:55.200 I didn't realize that it was the whole, our guitars 0:39:55.239 --> 0:39:59.120 won't get replaced with your dance music. So now that 0:39:59.160 --> 0:40:03.620 I saw it in that context, then I got more 0:40:03.700 --> 0:40:08.130 curious at this movement that was more about big beats 0:40:08.150 --> 0:40:10.560 and Because even when the Pet Shop Boys were on 0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:12.820 Soul Train, Don was having a hard. 0:40:12.660 --> 0:40:14.589 Time wrestling it. 0:40:14.610 --> 0:40:16.810 You guys are like a rap group, but you're... No 0:40:16.850 --> 0:40:18.969 matter what, that doesn't work for me, you know? 0:40:19.310 --> 0:40:20.830 Well, yeah, but I mean. 0:40:20.850 --> 0:40:22.850 Well, it must have been West End Girls. 0:40:23.050 --> 0:40:24.089 Well, no, it was West End Girls. 0:40:24.110 --> 0:40:25.910 Because they were doing a rap on it, you know? 0:40:25.930 --> 0:40:29.069 They sat outside at Unique. They were like listening to 0:40:29.150 --> 0:40:33.549 us recording Confusion. I mean, but Neil Tennant's favorite New 0:40:33.610 --> 0:40:35.610 Order record is Thieves Like Us, which I did the 0:40:35.650 --> 0:40:38.610 beat for. So it's sort of... We've been friends forever, 0:40:38.730 --> 0:40:41.410 but they were into dance music. They were a dance group. 0:40:41.430 --> 0:40:45.330 There's a shout out to Eka Wright, who did a 0:40:45.550 --> 0:40:50.790 documentary on this group called Sparks, of which I didn't 0:40:50.830 --> 0:40:55.740 realize the whole Pet Shop Boys versus Sparks controversy to that. 0:40:56.380 --> 0:40:58.989 Okay, so- We got the New Order part out the way. 0:40:59.010 --> 0:40:59.170 Yeah. 0:40:59.250 --> 0:41:01.209 I got to get to Beach Street. 0:41:01.250 --> 0:41:03.010 We got to make it to Sun City. 0:41:03.070 --> 0:41:04.910 No, I'm going back to 83. 0:41:04.890 --> 0:41:05.469 Let's do it. 0:41:05.489 --> 0:41:06.279 I'm going back to 83. 0:41:06.239 --> 0:41:07.160 To get to Sun City. 0:41:07.180 --> 0:41:11.200 All right. So how did you meet Stan Latham and 0:41:11.239 --> 0:41:11.960 Harry Belafonte? 0:41:11.980 --> 0:41:14.799 Well, Stan Latham wasn't involved in the beginning. Okay. There 0:41:14.820 --> 0:41:21.130 was another director who... It was... Okay. Quickly, Stephen Hager, writer, 0:41:21.989 --> 0:41:23.030 Village Voice writer. 0:41:23.250 --> 0:41:23.489 Okay. 0:41:23.550 --> 0:41:28.060 Did an article called The Perfect Beat using... The title 0:41:28.080 --> 0:41:30.839 of Looking for the Perfect Beat that I've also used 0:41:30.860 --> 0:41:36.020 for my book. And it was optioned by first Jane Fonda. 0:41:36.520 --> 0:41:38.890 But she let it go. She let it go. I 0:41:38.910 --> 0:41:44.150 wasn't involved yet. Okay. Then he got to Belafonte and 0:41:44.650 --> 0:41:47.370 David Picker. So he had a meeting and they offered 0:41:47.410 --> 0:41:50.770 him like the same bad deal that Jane Fonda did, 0:41:50.850 --> 0:41:54.690 like $ 500 or something. Right. But we were friends, me 0:41:55.390 --> 0:41:57.730 and Steve, Stephen. And he said, do you want to 0:41:57.770 --> 0:42:00.709 be involved? I'm doing a film. I want to call 0:42:00.770 --> 0:42:06.029 it the perfect beat from your song. And I want 0:42:06.070 --> 0:42:10.430 you to be the music supervisor. So basically, I get 0:42:10.530 --> 0:42:17.250 in and go meet with Harry Belafonte. And I walk 0:42:17.270 --> 0:42:20.870 into the office with Steve. And Harry Belafonte is there. Harry. 0:42:21.430 --> 0:42:24.690 larger than life, unbelievable. And then he asked me a 0:42:24.710 --> 0:42:28.870 strange question. He goes, are you Jewish? And he asked 0:42:28.930 --> 0:42:33.009 us if we're Jewish, right, me and Stephen. And Stephen's like, no, no. 0:42:33.150 --> 0:42:35.790 I said, yeah, actually I am. And then he goes, okay. 0:42:36.270 --> 0:42:38.410 All right, Jaime, it's okay. You can come out of 0:42:38.450 --> 0:42:42.529 the closet. And David Picker jumps out of the closet. 0:42:43.050 --> 0:42:43.819 What the hell was that? 0:42:44.140 --> 0:42:47.040 I have no idea. Why? I have no idea. But 0:42:47.080 --> 0:42:48.040 David Picker was Jewish. 0:42:48.180 --> 0:42:48.620 I don't know. 0:42:48.880 --> 0:42:52.489 Maybe, no, it was just some mad– Crazy shit. 0:42:52.690 --> 0:42:52.990 Okay. 0:42:53.469 --> 0:42:56.350 No, no, I'm just saying. That was my first meeting 0:42:56.390 --> 0:42:57.030 with Harry Belafonte. 0:42:57.190 --> 0:42:58.350 I see. Very weird. 0:42:58.390 --> 0:43:00.640 So he was sort of funny. It was funny. I 0:43:00.660 --> 0:43:02.739 don't know what it was meant. It was meant to 0:43:02.760 --> 0:43:03.600 be funny, you know? 0:43:03.620 --> 0:43:03.819 Okay. 0:43:04.380 --> 0:43:08.420 But, yeah, I mean, Stephen reminded me of that when 0:43:08.460 --> 0:43:11.320 I talked to him about Beach Street recently. Not recently, 0:43:11.360 --> 0:43:12.840 before I wrote the book, because. 0:43:12.860 --> 0:43:13.120 You know. 0:43:13.500 --> 0:43:17.420 Was it a hard sell to try to convince anyone 0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:20.690 not even in proximity of what the hip-hop movement was? 0:43:21.550 --> 0:43:24.709 I mean, by 82, 83, it was still like. 0:43:25.010 --> 0:43:28.359 Yeah, there was no hip-hop movement at the time. There 0:43:28.380 --> 0:43:31.939 was some records and some labels and there's some acts, 0:43:32.020 --> 0:43:35.739 but it was still very early because we started the 0:43:35.760 --> 0:43:37.340 film in 83. 0:43:37.340 --> 0:43:37.960 Okay. 0:43:38.000 --> 0:43:40.560 So 83 was pretty... I mean, you know, Soul Sonic 0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:43.320 had had their records. Things have happened. But the fact 0:43:43.410 --> 0:43:48.610 that we were making a film about this new culture, 0:43:49.010 --> 0:43:51.640 which is what it was... Obviously, we didn't have the 0:43:51.680 --> 0:43:54.860 foresight to know in five years, are people even going 0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:56.780 to be making these records? 0:43:57.140 --> 0:43:57.420 No. 0:43:57.800 --> 0:44:00.259 People say they thought it, but we didn't really know 0:44:00.320 --> 0:44:00.859 at all, right? 0:44:00.890 --> 0:44:02.029 Did the higher-ups at. 0:44:02.770 --> 0:44:04.550 It was Orion Pictures. 0:44:04.610 --> 0:44:09.069 Orion. Did the higher-ups at Orion Pictures treat it as such? 0:44:09.730 --> 0:44:12.910 Well, but David Picker had a big rep. He had 0:44:12.950 --> 0:44:16.260 done huge films. So basically, he wasn't inside. 0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:17.660 He was a suit. Okay. 0:44:17.739 --> 0:44:20.500 So we had a suit and we had... Crazy Harry 0:44:20.780 --> 0:44:23.759 with his Jaime story. No, but we had Harry who 0:44:23.800 --> 0:44:27.840 was like unbelievable guy. I mean, that story, it's just mental. 0:44:27.860 --> 0:44:31.660 That's why I told it. But he was amazing. But we, 0:44:31.820 --> 0:44:35.219 you know, basically I decided not only was I doing 0:44:35.239 --> 0:44:38.200 the music, but I was also picking the groups who 0:44:38.239 --> 0:44:40.850 were going to be in the film. And the thing was, 0:44:41.170 --> 0:44:43.830 through the years of writing the book, I went back 0:44:43.890 --> 0:44:46.150 to a few people and someone like Bernard Follin said, 0:44:46.670 --> 0:44:49.070 you don't remember you brought me in to meet Harry 0:44:49.090 --> 0:44:51.969 because you thought I should be in the film. I go, no, 0:44:51.989 --> 0:44:53.850 I don't remember. He said, yeah, you got me in 0:44:53.890 --> 0:44:57.270 the film. And then Harry saw, you know, Bernard Fowler. 0:44:57.290 --> 0:44:58.390 Yeah, the Peach Boys. 0:44:58.430 --> 0:45:01.910 Yeah, but he's been with the Stones for like 40 years. 0:45:01.969 --> 0:45:02.690 Oh, I know. I know well. 0:45:03.010 --> 0:45:07.210 But I always thought Bernard Fowler was the mega star 0:45:07.250 --> 0:45:11.640 that never happened because he was an amazing singer, looked great, 0:45:11.660 --> 0:45:15.219 was great personality, but he ended up being a, background singer. 0:45:15.300 --> 0:45:18.820 Is he part of that audition montage? Uh, no, no. 0:45:18.860 --> 0:45:21.180 He's at the end when they do the gospel thing. 0:45:21.239 --> 0:45:26.820 He's the, that's it. That's him. That is killing it, man. 0:45:27.300 --> 0:45:29.359 I don't know what young Bernard Fowler looks like. 0:45:29.400 --> 0:45:32.719 Yeah, that's him. And, and, and Harry would go, always 0:45:32.760 --> 0:45:36.060 call him Mr. Fowler. Like Harry related to him because 0:45:36.080 --> 0:45:37.980 they looked a bit similar. I mean, it was like, 0:45:38.020 --> 0:45:39.360 it could have been his son, you know? And, uh, 0:45:41.130 --> 0:45:44.830 I brought in, obviously, I brought in Melly Mel and Fletcher, 0:45:44.910 --> 0:45:48.390 who were friends of mine, and Soul Sonic and Lisa 0:45:48.469 --> 0:45:51.370 Fisher and Cindy Meidel did songs. They weren't in Brenda 0:45:51.390 --> 0:45:55.630 K Star. So basically, not only did I did the music, 0:45:56.250 --> 0:45:58.330 but I was also doing a lot of cocaine at 0:45:58.370 --> 0:46:01.029 the time. So I had no patience with a lot 0:46:01.090 --> 0:46:04.650 of the bullshit. I mean, I'd get in the studio 0:46:04.750 --> 0:46:07.850 and just sort of. Make music. Break is Revenge being 0:46:07.890 --> 0:46:10.130 the most successful album. 0:46:10.250 --> 0:46:12.570 I was going to say, the scene in which they're 0:46:12.670 --> 0:46:15.490 battling in the club, is that Funhouse or Danceteria? 0:46:15.510 --> 0:46:16.530 No, that's Roxy. 0:46:17.110 --> 0:46:17.729 That was the Roxy? 0:46:17.750 --> 0:46:18.470 That's the Roxy. 0:46:18.650 --> 0:46:18.890 Okay. 0:46:19.150 --> 0:46:20.270 That's the whole story. 0:46:20.310 --> 0:46:22.529 And the subway battle scene? 0:46:22.570 --> 0:46:25.210 Battle Cry. That was in the subway. Okay. I don't know. 0:46:25.390 --> 0:46:27.090 I wasn't at the shoots. I mean, I was at 0:46:27.150 --> 0:46:28.230 the Roxy, but. 0:46:28.430 --> 0:46:29.690 But you provided the music for that? 0:46:29.790 --> 0:46:29.950 Yeah. 0:46:29.989 --> 0:46:34.430 But you also, anything that Guy Davis did- Like when 0:46:34.590 --> 0:46:36.450 they're doing the ballet thing or whatever. 0:46:36.550 --> 0:46:37.890 Like you did anything that. 0:46:37.830 --> 0:46:39.410 He- I did a lot of it, but then also 0:46:39.450 --> 0:46:41.050 Harry had his son do some. 0:46:41.570 --> 0:46:42.310 Okay. David. 0:46:42.430 --> 0:46:44.450 So then we sort of fell out over that because 0:46:44.469 --> 0:46:47.790 he brought his son in. But also Diodato did a 0:46:47.810 --> 0:46:50.490 lot of music too, randomly. Really? 0:46:50.710 --> 0:46:51.110 Lala. 0:46:51.150 --> 0:46:53.210 He had that girl Lala. I did not know that. 0:46:53.290 --> 0:46:53.529 Okay. 0:46:53.670 --> 0:46:55.340 Yeah. So there's a few. And he did some of 0:46:55.380 --> 0:46:57.759 the scoring. And I brought in Webster Lewis. So he 0:46:57.780 --> 0:46:58.640 did some stuff too. 0:46:58.660 --> 0:47:01.060 Man, he brought in the heavy hitters. Yeah. 0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:03.260 Okay. But we had a budget, man. Okay. 0:47:15.610 --> 0:47:21.250 You guys didn't exploit Dougie Fresh in a way that. 0:47:21.570 --> 0:47:24.770 We discovered him. I had him signed to Streetwise, too, 0:47:24.830 --> 0:47:25.930 but that was another. 0:47:26.530 --> 0:47:30.290 But my whole thing is that I remember, like, when 0:47:30.330 --> 0:47:33.250 B Street came out, we saw it the day after 0:47:33.290 --> 0:47:33.689 it opened. 0:47:33.730 --> 0:47:34.380 Wow, okay. 0:47:35.050 --> 0:47:39.259 And so when watching the Christmas scene with the treacherous 0:47:39.300 --> 0:47:41.580 three and Dougie. 0:47:42.210 --> 0:47:44.129 I was like, how come in the audience I didn't 0:47:44.150 --> 0:47:50.570 realize that beatboxing was like this undiscovered territory? 0:47:50.850 --> 0:47:52.510 We thought it was a gimmick, you know? 0:47:52.670 --> 0:47:55.710 How come I didn't like, oh my God, it's like 0:47:56.350 --> 0:47:57.970 the wheel or fire. 0:47:58.989 --> 0:48:00.839 When you saw it, it just sort of went by you. 0:48:01.360 --> 0:48:04.020 It went by me. And then I think.... 0:48:05.540 --> 0:48:08.200 And then I interviewed Doug on this platform and he 0:48:08.219 --> 0:48:10.080 was like, well, I was the first beatboxer. 0:48:10.120 --> 0:48:12.540 Like a lot of people thought the Fat Boys were first. 0:48:12.620 --> 0:48:13.600 No, he was first. 0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:16.839 But the Fat Boys exploited like, yo, I'm making drums. 0:48:17.430 --> 0:48:19.969 And then when I rewatched Beat Street, I was like, yo. 0:48:20.030 --> 0:48:21.609 A missed opportunity. Yeah. 0:48:21.730 --> 0:48:24.450 It was just five seconds of me not noticing, oh 0:48:24.469 --> 0:48:26.530 my God, this guy's drumming with his mouth or whatever. 0:48:26.930 --> 0:48:31.129 But I mean, how did you guys know of Doug's reputation? 0:48:31.150 --> 0:48:33.910 I mean, you'd probably have to ask him, but I mean, 0:48:33.930 --> 0:48:36.940 he was in the film. in like dance scenes. He 0:48:36.960 --> 0:48:38.219 was like hanging out. 0:48:38.300 --> 0:48:40.460 He told me, I hit him up. I'm like, you're 0:48:40.500 --> 0:48:42.560 all over this film, but I didn't read. That's why 0:48:42.580 --> 0:48:43.219 I asked. 0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:47.779 But I think he probably came to the, I'm assuming, see, 0:48:47.860 --> 0:48:49.459 I wasn't at all the things. 0:48:49.480 --> 0:48:51.460 Oh, so it was an open call, like backstage? 0:48:51.480 --> 0:48:53.660 Yeah, it was an open call. Yeah. Brenda Kay Starr 0:48:53.680 --> 0:48:56.360 came and she sang. I mean, people. 0:48:56.660 --> 0:48:59.319 Is this how you got to meet Mariah eventually through 0:48:59.340 --> 0:49:00.339 Brenda Kay? 0:49:00.380 --> 0:49:01.040 Yeah, through that. 0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:01.239 Okay. 0:49:01.300 --> 0:49:04.200 But the thing is, we had an open call. 0:49:04.219 --> 0:49:04.589 Mm-hmm. 0:49:05.290 --> 0:49:09.650 At the Roxy. And people came and auditioned. And Brenda auditioned. 0:49:09.710 --> 0:49:13.490 She got in. And Dougie, I guess, auditioned. He got in. 0:49:13.800 --> 0:49:17.460 And I signed both of them. Who was the audition committee? 0:49:18.280 --> 0:49:24.100 Like Harry- David Picker, Michael Holman was there, I think. Okay. 0:49:24.239 --> 0:49:24.720 My partner. 0:49:24.739 --> 0:49:26.120 Were you allowed to? 0:49:26.640 --> 0:49:30.040 I was there, but I don't remember a lot of it. 0:49:30.100 --> 0:49:31.280 I was really on cocaine. 0:49:31.360 --> 0:49:31.720 Okay. 0:49:31.860 --> 0:49:36.739 I'm sorry. I'll admit it. I can't take any blame 0:49:36.830 --> 0:49:39.979 for that. Okay. Yeah. You know, I made some really 0:49:40.000 --> 0:49:43.180 good tracks. I made some crappy tracks. And, you know, basically, 0:49:44.480 --> 0:49:46.640 you know, I did my job. And then when the 0:49:46.680 --> 0:49:49.779 movie came out, well, the other thing was that the 0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:54.770 artists hated the process, like Soul Sonic, all the guys. 0:49:54.790 --> 0:49:55.710 Hurry up and wait. 0:49:55.830 --> 0:49:58.610 Well, it was more like they wouldn't let him smoke 0:49:58.650 --> 0:50:02.250 a cigarette. They wouldn't let him have a beer. You know, yo, Artie. 0:50:02.430 --> 0:50:05.149 It was like Biggs, Mr. Biggs. Yo, Artie, man, shit 0:50:05.170 --> 0:50:07.830 ain't right, you know? We want to have a beer 0:50:07.870 --> 0:50:09.890 and smoke a cigarette. They went, you got to talk 0:50:09.930 --> 0:50:13.150 to Harry. So I'd go to Harry and go, the 0:50:13.190 --> 0:50:15.090 guys aren't happy. 0:50:15.890 --> 0:50:18.290 So Harry was hands on for this whole production? 0:50:18.310 --> 0:50:21.400 Harry was the producer. He was there at every shoot. 0:50:22.100 --> 0:50:23.859 Some producers are rubber stamp producers. 0:50:23.880 --> 0:50:26.540 Yeah, but man, think about it. He's put his ass 0:50:26.600 --> 0:50:30.660 on the line for this hip hop culture thing to 0:50:30.700 --> 0:50:34.259 a major film label. Mm-hmm. And he was out there 0:50:34.320 --> 0:50:36.799 promoting it. He went to Cannes with it. He went 0:50:36.900 --> 0:50:39.410 all over the world. B Street went to Cannes? 0:50:39.430 --> 0:50:40.530 Yeah. Yeah. 0:50:41.270 --> 0:50:43.410 It premiered at Cannes. And they brought the New York 0:50:43.430 --> 0:50:44.350 City Breakers. 0:50:44.469 --> 0:50:45.390 Oh, okay. 0:50:45.670 --> 0:50:47.790 Yeah. And a lot of the acts went. And I 0:50:47.810 --> 0:50:54.029 didn't go because I was like- Went to the next? Yeah. 0:50:54.710 --> 0:50:58.720 It was an experience. I mean, I'm really happy we did. 0:50:59.000 --> 0:51:00.760 Did it, and now I'm happy we're doing. 0:51:00.780 --> 0:51:03.200 I was going to say, talk about bringing it to Broadway. Yeah, 0:51:03.239 --> 0:51:04.379 we're bringing it. 0:51:04.540 --> 0:51:09.560 Nine years ago, myself and my wife, Annette, after seeing Hamilton, 0:51:09.600 --> 0:51:11.880 she said, you know what? Why don't you do a 0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:15.500 Beach Street musical? And I said, you know what? No 0:51:15.560 --> 0:51:17.960 reason not to. So I went to Holman because he 0:51:18.000 --> 0:51:20.259 had been involved in the dance stuff. 0:51:20.450 --> 0:51:20.640 Right. 0:51:21.280 --> 0:51:24.529 And we started working on a presentation, and we got 0:51:24.550 --> 0:51:27.110 our partner, who's this guy, Richard Fern from the U.K., 0:51:28.670 --> 0:51:31.500 An old B-boy, he was like 12 when he saw it, 0:51:32.230 --> 0:51:35.710 and he loved it. And he was like, okay, I'm in. 0:51:36.050 --> 0:51:38.410 So we had like a month. We had the idea 0:51:38.430 --> 0:51:41.279 a month we get funding. And then it's taken us 0:51:41.400 --> 0:51:43.219 nine years to get it. Well, you know. 0:51:43.239 --> 0:51:44.120 That sounds about right. 0:51:44.460 --> 0:51:47.480 So it's taken us nine years. Two years ago, my 0:51:47.520 --> 0:51:51.500 friend Faye had seen Nas on The Daily Show going, 0:51:53.050 --> 0:51:57.100 Trevor Noah went, what's your favorite movie? And Nas went. Well, 0:51:57.640 --> 0:52:00.040 you probably don't know it, but it's this hip-hop film. 0:52:00.060 --> 0:52:03.300 It's called Beat Street. My friend called me up. Hey, yo, Arthur. 0:52:03.940 --> 0:52:07.830 And then I threw Peter and Mass Appeal. So two 0:52:07.870 --> 0:52:11.330 years in, he came. Two years ago, he came on board. 0:52:11.370 --> 0:52:14.089 We showed it at Tribeca. And now we're getting there. 0:52:14.110 --> 0:52:17.810 We got a great writer. We got Christopher Diaz, who 0:52:17.830 --> 0:52:18.730 did Hell's Kitchen. 0:52:19.050 --> 0:52:19.340 Oh, cool. 0:52:19.610 --> 0:52:22.440 So he's on there. We got Shelley Williams, the director. 0:52:22.480 --> 0:52:23.200 She's directing. 0:52:23.219 --> 0:52:23.439 Okay. 0:52:23.460 --> 0:52:27.069 Yeah. So we're Jason Michael Webb, who did MJ. We 0:52:27.090 --> 0:52:30.470 got our super squad. So very exciting. 0:52:30.489 --> 0:52:31.149 So coming soon. 0:52:31.690 --> 0:52:31.950 Well. 0:52:32.530 --> 0:52:34.859 You know, man. 0:52:34.900 --> 0:52:36.180 Where's Soul Train? 0:52:36.200 --> 0:52:41.640 Dog, it's always such a hard hill to climb. 0:52:41.739 --> 0:52:46.020 But we had our first table reading yesterday. Nice. And 0:52:46.080 --> 0:52:47.430 it sounded amazing. 0:52:47.489 --> 0:52:47.770 Okay. 0:52:47.790 --> 0:52:51.000 And we got great characters, and it's great. Really exciting 0:52:51.020 --> 0:52:52.160 because it's this dream. 0:52:52.260 --> 0:52:53.620 You're doing all the music or? 0:52:53.700 --> 0:52:57.580 I'm doing music. I'm doing, I'm one of the lead 0:52:57.640 --> 0:52:58.960 producers right now, but. 0:52:59.160 --> 0:53:00.739 And is it staying to the 83, 84? 0:53:00.739 --> 0:53:04.400 The same time. Yeah, a little earlier actually. It's actually, 0:53:05.000 --> 0:53:08.710 what we want it to be is sort of Rapper's 0:53:08.750 --> 0:53:13.050 Delight has happened. Okay. It's right, it's before Planet Rock. 0:53:13.130 --> 0:53:16.410 It's definitely that era, just the birth of it all, 0:53:16.469 --> 0:53:16.710 you know? 0:53:17.430 --> 0:53:21.450 Does it plan to show hip hop aesthetics, i.e. DJing 0:53:21.469 --> 0:53:22.610 and all? 0:53:22.680 --> 0:53:28.560 Yeah, the whole culture, b-boying and graffiti and everything. Well, 0:53:29.460 --> 0:53:32.040 the way we're going to do it is obviously you're 0:53:32.060 --> 0:53:34.460 living in a world, it's the world of that time 0:53:34.500 --> 0:53:37.520 and you're living in this world and it's, you don't 0:53:37.560 --> 0:53:40.420 know hip hop starting, but it probably isn't even called 0:53:40.480 --> 0:53:43.640 hip hop yet, you know, it's at that moment. And then, 0:53:43.700 --> 0:53:47.379 you know, obviously later on at some point we, look 0:53:47.420 --> 0:53:50.400 back and celebrate where it's gone. But, you know, it's 0:53:50.440 --> 0:53:53.759 still trying to tell the story of the kids in 0:53:53.800 --> 0:53:57.210 the Bronx who created something that is now the biggest 0:53:57.890 --> 0:54:01.730 musical movement of our lifetime. So, you know, it's exciting. 0:54:02.150 --> 0:54:05.430 So I briefly want to just ask you about party 0:54:05.469 --> 0:54:07.030 time and Def Jam. 0:54:07.160 --> 0:54:11.000 But before I get there, during this time period, are 0:54:11.100 --> 0:54:17.379 you rubbing shoulders with your small circle of contemporaries. Yeah, 0:54:17.400 --> 0:54:21.700 of course. Your Larry Smiths, your... Where's Rick Rubin and 0:54:21.800 --> 0:54:22.100 all this? 0:54:22.120 --> 0:54:25.770 Yeah, Roddy Way, Green Street, you know, because John Roby 0:54:25.810 --> 0:54:30.290 would work at Green Street Studio. We'd go down to 0:54:31.010 --> 0:54:34.609 Chung King, with John King, you know, his studio. So 0:54:34.650 --> 0:54:36.330 there was like, you know, because we were all like 0:54:36.890 --> 0:54:41.970 hanging out together. Yeah, I think I probably knew Russell before. 0:54:42.070 --> 0:54:45.330 I knew Russell when I made Swept Away, because we 0:54:45.370 --> 0:54:48.330 were at Bentley's one night, and he heard Swept Away. 0:54:48.350 --> 0:54:51.669 He goes, yo, man, that beat's too nervous. That beat, 0:54:51.730 --> 0:54:53.989 I don't like that beat. It's too nervous, Arthur. 0:54:54.390 --> 0:54:57.690 I love that a Diana Ross song is getting judged 0:54:57.790 --> 0:54:58.310 on the beat. 0:54:58.410 --> 0:55:02.540 Yeah, well, Swept Away, you know, it was a pretty hectic. 0:55:02.580 --> 0:55:03.540 What was that session like? 0:55:03.820 --> 0:55:07.460 What, with Diana? Yeah. Amazing. She was so great. She 0:55:07.520 --> 0:55:10.540 came in, first time we met, it was me and Daryl, 0:55:10.640 --> 0:55:12.960 and she came up to Shakedown Studios. 0:55:12.980 --> 0:55:13.200 Uh-huh. 0:55:13.930 --> 0:55:17.850 And Tommy lent us, Mottola lent us his limo. And 0:55:17.890 --> 0:55:20.730 we listened to some music. Daryl plays the demo of 0:55:20.750 --> 0:55:24.700 Swept Away. She loves it. Get in the limo. Have 0:55:24.719 --> 0:55:27.060 a bottle of wine. We're driving around New York drinking 0:55:27.120 --> 0:55:32.420 red wine. And then we cut her vocal in that 0:55:32.480 --> 0:55:35.670 studio underneath Studio 54. I forget the name of it. 0:55:35.680 --> 0:55:38.360 But there's a studio at Studio 54. 0:55:38.360 --> 0:55:41.839 So basically she showed up in a Bentley. She had 0:55:41.900 --> 0:55:47.470 a Bentley. Right. And she comes in wearing a floor-length 0:55:47.890 --> 0:55:50.950 mink stole, mink coat. And she comes out. 0:55:51.239 --> 0:55:52.140 I hope it's February. 0:55:52.640 --> 0:55:55.460 It was February. Okay. Yeah. But then she goes in 0:55:55.500 --> 0:55:58.839 the bathroom and comes out and she's wearing like a sweatsuit. 0:55:59.360 --> 0:56:01.840 And she's hopping up and down. And she's like, I'm ready. 0:56:01.900 --> 0:56:04.739 I'm ready. So, basically, she starts– she's going out with 0:56:04.860 --> 0:56:06.680 Gene Simmons at the time. 0:56:06.719 --> 0:56:07.520 I remember this period. 0:56:07.660 --> 0:56:10.900 And he– she had like a box he had given her. 0:56:11.020 --> 0:56:13.150 And it was like a– she opened up, it was 0:56:13.170 --> 0:56:16.379 like a chocolate cock, like a, like a, like that, like, 0:56:16.520 --> 0:56:16.739 you know. 0:56:16.760 --> 0:56:18.160 This is a very Gene Simmons thing to do. 0:56:18.200 --> 0:56:21.190 To do. And then we're like, okay, you know, and then, 0:56:22.570 --> 0:56:25.009 her and Daryl go in and they're doing backgrounds and 0:56:25.030 --> 0:56:29.009 I'm like, they're out of tune and I'm like, Who's going. 0:56:28.730 --> 0:56:29.969 To be the person to tell her? 0:56:29.989 --> 0:56:31.239 Well, it was me, you know? 0:56:31.570 --> 0:56:31.970 Okay. 0:56:32.110 --> 0:56:35.020 They were out of tune. But making that track was 0:56:35.280 --> 0:56:37.660 really fun. She came to the studio. 0:56:37.680 --> 0:56:39.259 And you got Nile to play on it. Did you not? 0:56:39.560 --> 0:56:41.560 Not on that track. He did a track, but he's 0:56:41.600 --> 0:56:45.670 not on that track. That's Gene. The guitarist from Hall & 0:56:45.670 --> 0:56:48.930 Oates was on Saturday Night Live forever. G. 0:56:48.969 --> 0:56:49.910 Smith. G. 0:56:49.989 --> 0:56:55.220 Smith. G. Smith. So G. Smith was on that. Robbie Kilgore, 0:56:55.239 --> 0:56:58.600 who had played on Let the Music Play, Shannon, I 0:56:58.640 --> 0:57:00.719 brought him in on it. And then he became part 0:57:00.760 --> 0:57:02.279 of the Hall & Oates group. So he was a 0:57:02.320 --> 0:57:05.660 Hall & Oates, uh, he plays that great arpeggiator line 0:57:05.719 --> 0:57:08.580 on Swept Away. It was like, but it was great. 0:57:08.600 --> 0:57:10.799 And then we went in to mix it and she 0:57:10.820 --> 0:57:12.610 wanted to be involved and she was there and she 0:57:12.640 --> 0:57:15.070 had a couple of glasses of red, fell asleep, snoring 0:57:15.610 --> 0:57:18.370 behind me and Chris Lord-Alge as we're mixing it. But, uh, 0:57:18.990 --> 0:57:20.990 She was great. I mean, I only did the one song, 0:57:21.070 --> 0:57:24.820 so it was still fresh. If I had done more, 0:57:24.840 --> 0:57:27.260 it would probably... Lead single. Yeah. And it was her 0:57:27.320 --> 0:57:29.200 last top 20 record. 0:57:29.220 --> 0:57:29.540 It was. 0:57:29.840 --> 0:57:30.060 Yeah. 0:57:30.080 --> 0:57:31.700 I brought that for my mother's birthday. 0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:31.919 Yeah. 0:57:32.220 --> 0:57:35.680 Yeah. So did you at all work with or know 0:57:36.030 --> 0:57:37.410 of Larry. 0:57:37.770 --> 0:57:38.270 Larry Smith. 0:57:38.330 --> 0:57:40.530 Larry Smith. He's one of the mythical figures that. 0:57:40.550 --> 0:57:42.430 I met him at Green Street because they were doing 0:57:42.470 --> 0:57:45.450 those records at Green Street. Okay. And yeah, he was... 0:57:46.410 --> 0:57:49.490 He was amazing. He was like totally slept on and, 0:57:49.550 --> 0:57:53.070 you know, he was the guy. Before Rick brought rock 0:57:53.350 --> 0:57:56.150 to rap, he did it before. 0:57:56.710 --> 0:57:59.390 As technology is moving at the speed of sound. Yeah. 0:58:00.190 --> 0:58:03.370 Like at this point, are you just acquiring every drummer 0:58:03.410 --> 0:58:08.700 scene possible? Like when DMX has come out, you're like, okay, 808, goodbye. 0:58:08.740 --> 0:58:09.470 Yeah, I did. 0:58:10.320 --> 0:58:11.890 DMX, I love the DMX. 0:58:11.970 --> 0:58:14.370 I know. I associate you with that more than anything. 0:58:14.390 --> 0:58:18.709 Because everyone was biting on the 808. Everyone was using 0:58:18.750 --> 0:58:20.530 the 808. 0:58:20.530 --> 0:58:21.650 How did you feel about. 0:58:21.850 --> 0:58:25.260 When I heard Jim and Lewis, when they did the 0:58:25.420 --> 0:58:28.060 SOS band, Just Be Good To Me, and I was 0:58:28.280 --> 0:58:30.439 woken up by my alarm and I hear the beat 0:58:30.460 --> 0:58:34.180 and I'm going, oh no, fuck, they've discovered it. Someone's 0:58:34.240 --> 0:58:37.010 discovered the 808. Well, how could they not? But when 0:58:37.050 --> 0:58:39.330 I did the 808 film, they were saying, you know, 0:58:39.710 --> 0:58:41.860 When they heard Planet Rock, that was like a big, 0:58:43.030 --> 0:58:45.500 a huge moment for a lot of people who made 0:58:45.800 --> 0:58:49.600 records at the time because it was a cooler sounding machine. 0:58:49.700 --> 0:58:52.660 I mean, it just sounded cool. But then once everyone 0:58:52.680 --> 0:58:54.520 was using it, and then when I heard the DMX, 0:58:54.580 --> 0:58:56.960 I was like, that sounds like the drums. It had 0:58:57.000 --> 0:59:01.080 a tight snare. It really, so, but then, and so 0:59:01.300 --> 0:59:07.380 on Breaker's Revenge- I used mostly DMX, but then listening back, 0:59:07.480 --> 0:59:09.610 I used a lot of the percussion from the 808. 0:59:09.830 --> 0:59:14.330 because that was really unmined territory, I thought. It was 0:59:14.390 --> 0:59:15.450 still really, you know. 0:59:16.130 --> 0:59:19.260 Could you, with MIDI technology, could you marry the two together? 0:59:19.280 --> 0:59:20.300 Yeah, you could, yeah. 0:59:20.510 --> 0:59:23.320 Was it ever nightmarish or just like MIDI will solve everything? 0:59:23.340 --> 0:59:26.560 Yeah, it was pretty nightmarish. It would slip. Like I'm 0:59:26.600 --> 0:59:31.340 walking on sunshine. We had the DMX, and by the end, 0:59:31.360 --> 0:59:34.640 and some of the keyboards were programmed by Fred Czar, 0:59:35.460 --> 0:59:37.340 and by the end, it had slipped a bit, but 0:59:37.380 --> 0:59:39.860 then I had Pee Wee Ford do the bass line 0:59:39.920 --> 0:59:43.419 live and Bashiri, so they played to the slippage, so 0:59:43.440 --> 0:59:47.460 it was fine. It sounded like a live band, really. 0:59:47.560 --> 0:59:49.840 Were you ever a Linn guy at all, Linn drum? 0:59:50.240 --> 0:59:53.570 No, just Linn samples, like once I got samples of 0:59:53.630 --> 0:59:55.790 Linn's because I thought like the clap and, you know, 0:59:56.820 --> 0:59:58.820 I guess Prince, what was he? 0:59:58.860 --> 1:00:00.000 Well, the Lindrum. 1:00:00.060 --> 1:00:05.480 I found out that the claps on the Lindrum are 1:00:05.620 --> 1:00:07.220 Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. 1:00:07.560 --> 1:00:08.180 Were they? Yeah. 1:00:08.220 --> 1:00:11.780 Like he recorded Tom Petty in the hallway of whatever studio. 1:00:11.460 --> 1:00:11.920 He was in. 1:00:12.620 --> 1:00:12.950 Okay. 1:00:13.180 --> 1:00:17.230 So one of my favorite memoirs that I've read in 1:00:17.650 --> 1:00:22.400 the pandemic was Little Stephen's journey. 1:00:22.200 --> 1:00:25.190 Right in music great great great book great book yeah. 1:00:25.050 --> 1:00:28.170 His positioning of everything is like everything i ever wanted 1:00:28.530 --> 1:00:31.550 he remembers everything yeah he talks about how he hated 1:00:31.630 --> 1:00:36.550 mixes yeah he was honest about leaving during the glory 1:00:36.570 --> 1:00:41.270 period and all that stuff um but no story like 1:00:41.970 --> 1:00:44.890 had me on the edge of my seat his tale 1:00:45.270 --> 1:00:49.430 of getting sun city made it's a movie. 1:00:49.570 --> 1:00:55.790 Well there the There's going to be a movie? A biopic, supposedly. 1:00:55.890 --> 1:00:59.690 And a doc. There's a doc happening, too. But the biopic, 1:01:00.110 --> 1:01:03.830 when he called me up and said, hey, Arthur, there's. 1:01:03.730 --> 1:01:05.550 Going to be a biopic. 1:01:05.590 --> 1:01:09.450 There's going to be a biopic. Am I in it? 1:01:09.470 --> 1:01:09.910 Yeah, yeah. 1:01:09.930 --> 1:01:15.240 It's me and you, man. You know, so it's like, it's... Okay, so. 1:01:17.100 --> 1:01:18.460 Tell me from beginning to end. 1:01:18.560 --> 1:01:18.900 Okay. 1:01:19.460 --> 1:01:21.960 First of all, explain to people why there was a 1:01:22.020 --> 1:01:26.459 need for- The record. A song called Sun City. 1:01:26.600 --> 1:01:32.000 Okay. At that time, Sun City was in Botswana, which 1:01:32.480 --> 1:01:35.060 South Africa said it was a different country. They were like, 1:01:36.040 --> 1:01:40.160 it's a different country. There's a casino called Sun City and- 1:01:42.250 --> 1:01:45.550 American acts could play there, British acts, because it's not 1:01:45.670 --> 1:01:49.390 in South Africa. But it was in South Africa. So 1:01:50.570 --> 1:01:53.050 Stephen and I had been introduced to each other by 1:01:53.150 --> 1:01:56.570 Jimmy Iovine. See, he forgets a few things. Like, that's 1:01:56.590 --> 1:02:00.500 how we met. We were working together. I had done 1:02:00.920 --> 1:02:02.800 Springsteen remixes before that. 1:02:02.820 --> 1:02:03.400 Right. 1:02:03.580 --> 1:02:07.540 And basically, I was working with Cyndi Lauper on a 1:02:07.600 --> 1:02:11.510 remix of Good Enough for the Goonies, and She told 1:02:11.530 --> 1:02:13.930 me she thought it sounded like African, whatever. And then 1:02:13.970 --> 1:02:16.750 she started talking about South Africa. She did, in fact, 1:02:17.230 --> 1:02:20.630 start talking about South Africa to me. I called Steve 1:02:20.670 --> 1:02:22.390 and I go, hey, you know what? We should do 1:02:22.410 --> 1:02:26.820 a record about South Africa, anti-apartheid. He said, I've already 1:02:26.880 --> 1:02:29.000 got the song. I already wrote it. I go, what? 1:02:29.100 --> 1:02:33.440 So this was like this random occurrence. Mm-hmm. And then 1:02:33.480 --> 1:02:37.740 he brought me the demo over to Shakedown. And I 1:02:37.780 --> 1:02:40.680 was like, I'm in. Let's do it. Let's make this record. 1:02:40.940 --> 1:02:44.560 And from there on, we were like partners in this 1:02:44.740 --> 1:02:51.060 and just went on without thinking anything through, really. We 1:02:51.220 --> 1:02:52.820 financed it by my studio. 1:02:52.880 --> 1:02:55.910 Is this in 84? It was 84. Well, that album 1:02:55.930 --> 1:02:57.590 came out in 85. 1:02:57.570 --> 1:02:59.840 85. It was 85 or late 84. 1:02:59.840 --> 1:03:01.400 I was under the impression like it took a year 1:03:01.440 --> 1:03:03.780 to even- No, it took like six months maybe. 1:03:03.800 --> 1:03:07.620 It seemed like a lifetime, you know? Because his idea 1:03:07.960 --> 1:03:11.320 from day one, okay, so we get the demo and 1:03:11.360 --> 1:03:14.910 then I said, well, we should get another voice on it. 1:03:14.970 --> 1:03:18.470 So Will Downing, who was signed to my production company, 1:03:18.510 --> 1:03:23.270 he was the first voice on Sun City other than Steven, right? 1:03:23.330 --> 1:03:23.530 Okay. 1:03:23.910 --> 1:03:27.280 So we do the demo- And then Steven goes, you know, 1:03:27.320 --> 1:03:29.460 I want it to be rockers and rappers. I want 1:03:29.500 --> 1:03:32.600 it to be all inclusive. You know all the rappers, 1:03:32.900 --> 1:03:34.500 which I did. So basically. 1:03:34.640 --> 1:03:35.440 That explains. 1:03:35.560 --> 1:03:40.290 That's how. But we got involved because I have my studio. 1:03:40.350 --> 1:03:44.610 So my studio's in. I'm all in. And then me 1:03:44.650 --> 1:03:48.050 and him start meeting to make our wish list, right, 1:03:49.150 --> 1:03:52.410 of the acts. And we'd meet at the Sunrise Diner 1:03:52.510 --> 1:03:55.390 on 57th Street. Because he lived on one side of 1:03:55.570 --> 1:03:58.440 57th and I lived on the other. Okay. So literally 1:03:58.480 --> 1:04:01.000 between 8th and 9th or. 1:04:01.260 --> 1:04:01.610 7th and 8th. 1:04:02.440 --> 1:04:04.900 And we would meet at the diner. We'd make a 1:04:04.960 --> 1:04:09.010 list on one of those, you know, table things, paper things. 1:04:09.650 --> 1:04:12.070 So obviously this is based on like having seen We 1:04:12.090 --> 1:04:15.630 Are the World and the effect of– Do they know 1:04:15.650 --> 1:04:16.230 it's Christmas? 1:04:16.970 --> 1:04:19.810 Yeah, I mean, I guess. I mean, we always wanted 1:04:19.890 --> 1:04:23.450 to be more inclusive, and it was very important that 1:04:23.490 --> 1:04:26.220 we gave rappers their voice, which they had no voice 1:04:26.340 --> 1:04:27.800 in either one of those records. 1:04:27.940 --> 1:04:30.340 Well, I just meant the idea of getting a whole 1:04:30.400 --> 1:04:31.700 bunch of people together. 1:04:31.720 --> 1:04:34.000 Yeah, but his idea was we'll get four rappers and 1:04:34.040 --> 1:04:37.600 four rockers. And I'm like, what are you talking about? 1:04:37.620 --> 1:04:38.660 Go bigger than that. 1:04:38.720 --> 1:04:41.070 You know who you are, and you know who I know, 1:04:42.150 --> 1:04:44.870 so we can get whoever we want. And it was like... 1:04:45.270 --> 1:04:47.970 me having to sell him on the fact that- It 1:04:48.010 --> 1:04:50.590 can be bigger. It can be bigger. Okay. Because he 1:04:51.490 --> 1:04:54.130 was sort of in this odd place at that point 1:04:54.150 --> 1:04:57.450 because he had been in Springsteen's band, obviously forever. He 1:04:57.490 --> 1:05:01.260 leaves the band and then he's like starting in on 1:05:01.280 --> 1:05:04.120 this thing, a journey that we don't even know if 1:05:04.160 --> 1:05:05.360 it's going to end up coming out. 1:05:05.380 --> 1:05:06.180 Right. 1:05:06.460 --> 1:05:11.100 And we would make these lists and gradually the rappers 1:05:11.160 --> 1:05:13.580 were the guys who came in first, you know, Run DMC- 1:05:14.630 --> 1:05:20.740 Melly Mel, Duke Booty, Ed Fletcher, you know, Bambada, Curtis Blow. 1:05:20.860 --> 1:05:21.550 I mean, you know. 1:05:22.100 --> 1:05:24.660 Like, how do you know that it's going to be 1:05:24.800 --> 1:05:27.240 four bars of rapping here and then Miles Davis is 1:05:27.280 --> 1:05:28.200 going to say something here? 1:05:28.300 --> 1:05:31.980 No, we rearranged it in the edit, but we recorded 1:05:32.020 --> 1:05:35.020 it long so that we recorded it too long. 1:05:35.680 --> 1:05:36.780 And then we'll chop it up. 1:05:36.960 --> 1:05:40.460 Okay. Whenever anyone would sing, see that, okay, let me, 1:05:40.680 --> 1:05:43.020 before I get ahead of myself, so we Get the 1:05:43.100 --> 1:05:45.660 rappers on. They're in the intro and they're in the breakdown, right? Yeah. 1:05:46.140 --> 1:05:49.660 And then we start going for singers and we gradually 1:05:49.720 --> 1:05:54.920 get like the most incredible lineup, Bobby Womack and George 1:05:55.000 --> 1:05:59.630 Clinton and Joey Ramone and Nona Hendrix and, you know, 1:05:59.790 --> 1:06:02.670 Peter Gabriel. I mean, they were like, everyone's on, you know, 1:06:02.690 --> 1:06:05.970 it was like the coolest record that you could imagine. 1:06:06.090 --> 1:06:09.330 And obviously Miles showing up was. 1:06:10.290 --> 1:06:10.990 What was that like? 1:06:11.110 --> 1:06:15.919 Because you even got him to speak? But he did 1:06:15.960 --> 1:06:20.080 that on, no, I'll do it quickly, but okay. We're 1:06:20.140 --> 1:06:22.180 thinking he's going to show up, but we never know 1:06:22.240 --> 1:06:24.550 when he's going to show up. Right. And then one 1:06:24.590 --> 1:06:28.390 night there's a buzz on my intercom. Yo, man, it's Miles. 1:06:28.450 --> 1:06:31.430 Let me in. And I look and it's in. And 1:06:31.490 --> 1:06:35.200 Barney Raiders and they're singing. And I look, I go, Steven, Miles, Miles. 1:06:36.200 --> 1:06:38.420 We're like, shit, you know, because we were all intimidated 1:06:38.460 --> 1:06:41.660 by him, you know, the stories of Miles Davis. So 1:06:41.700 --> 1:06:43.440 we go and we get him, and he's like got 1:06:43.480 --> 1:06:49.040 the polka dot, you know, scarf, and he's like so cool. 1:06:49.080 --> 1:06:52.770 Miles is, you know, as a motherfucker, he's like walks in, 1:06:53.410 --> 1:06:56.950 and he walks back to my control room, and Kashif 1:06:57.090 --> 1:06:58.189 and Bonnie Raitt are there. 1:06:58.770 --> 1:06:59.450 Kashif's there? 1:06:59.630 --> 1:07:01.770 Yeah, he's in the record. He's on the record. 1:07:01.870 --> 1:07:02.130 Okay. 1:07:02.150 --> 1:07:05.110 So he's there, and like Bonnie's like, okay. 1:07:05.840 --> 1:07:06.410 It's okay. 1:07:06.600 --> 1:07:09.300 She gets out of the booth and she goes, Miles, 1:07:09.360 --> 1:07:11.100 I love what you do with your horn. And Miles 1:07:11.120 --> 1:07:13.880 is like, yeah, baby, it's just my thing, you know. 1:07:13.900 --> 1:07:17.820 It's just like anything. The Miles, you can be with 1:07:17.880 --> 1:07:21.930 Miles Davis for half an hour and you got 10 stories. 1:07:21.990 --> 1:07:25.690 The guy was like a walking, you know. I mean, 1:07:26.150 --> 1:07:29.310 so basically he goes in there and, you know, Steven 1:07:29.330 --> 1:07:31.410 and me are behind the board and Steven, you know, 1:07:32.060 --> 1:07:34.780 do one with, you know, one with a mute, one 1:07:34.820 --> 1:07:37.220 with this, you know, so we did three takes. And 1:07:37.260 --> 1:07:38.360 then we have a cameraman. 1:07:38.380 --> 1:07:39.440 And you just let him? 1:07:40.120 --> 1:07:42.240 Well, we said, you know, we want something for the 1:07:42.320 --> 1:07:45.640 intro and something for this breakdown, but you can play 1:07:45.680 --> 1:07:47.640 all the way through. So he played all the way through, 1:07:47.780 --> 1:07:52.380 like three takes over like seven minutes, right? Which becomes 1:07:52.820 --> 1:07:57.040 important after this bit of the story. So basically, you know, 1:07:58.320 --> 1:08:00.930 we already had Herbie Hancock on the track. He was 1:08:00.970 --> 1:08:07.220 playing like So somehow we got him. And then there's 1:08:07.260 --> 1:08:10.420 a cameraman in there, a white cameraman in the control, 1:08:10.540 --> 1:08:14.340 in the performing room, in the vocal booth. And at 1:08:14.380 --> 1:08:18.340 some point he said, you can't come in here. You're 1:08:18.360 --> 1:08:21.840 the wrong color. And we're thinking, we're like, we don't 1:08:21.880 --> 1:08:27.020 know what to think. Is he talking to the cameraman? 1:08:27.280 --> 1:08:30.150 So Danny Schechter, who is such a big part of 1:08:30.189 --> 1:08:33.540 the story, He was a 2020 producer, but when I 1:08:33.580 --> 1:08:38.540 was growing up in Boston, he was the news guy 1:08:38.740 --> 1:08:42.460 at WBCN, which was the radio station that influenced me 1:08:42.520 --> 1:08:44.730 and many other people. Okay. And he was what was 1:08:44.770 --> 1:08:48.570 called Danny Schechter, the news dissector. And this was during 1:08:48.590 --> 1:08:51.410 the Vietnam War, and he was like the guy. So 1:08:51.689 --> 1:08:53.770 he was working at 2020, so he was getting us 1:08:53.790 --> 1:08:57.510 the whole camera crew. But Danny had no– he'd say 1:08:57.550 --> 1:08:59.479 anything to anyone Cause that was, he was like a 1:08:59.600 --> 1:09:02.780 punk journalist. So he goes up to Miles, Hey Miles, 1:09:03.240 --> 1:09:05.469 you know what you just said, could you do that again? 1:09:05.520 --> 1:09:09.550 So we could get you on camera doing it. So Miles, yeah, sure, man. Yeah. 1:09:09.970 --> 1:09:11.870 So we did it and it was like amazing. And 1:09:11.890 --> 1:09:13.910 we ended up, Using it. 1:09:14.070 --> 1:09:16.450 I was wondering how y'all got that out of him. 1:09:16.490 --> 1:09:18.889 Yeah, no, he came up with it. And we were like, 1:09:19.390 --> 1:09:21.910 it was like his moment that he, it came into 1:09:21.970 --> 1:09:26.700 his head. He was being, he was the voice of 1:09:26.760 --> 1:09:29.719 South Africa. You can't come in here, you're the wrong color. 1:09:30.340 --> 1:09:31.340 And it blew us all away. 1:09:31.360 --> 1:09:31.980 I totally, yeah. 1:09:32.140 --> 1:09:34.520 It blew us all away. And then, you know, he 1:09:34.560 --> 1:09:36.830 was smiling at the end of the session. We got 1:09:36.870 --> 1:09:39.389 a photo. me and him and Steven, and he's got 1:09:39.450 --> 1:09:41.770 the biggest smile. He had a great, I mean, it 1:09:41.810 --> 1:09:45.490 was a great moment for sure. And then to continue, 1:09:45.930 --> 1:09:48.930 we had a whole performance of him. So we ended 1:09:48.990 --> 1:09:54.019 up getting Herbie, Tony Williams, Ron Carter. You reunited the- 1:09:54.080 --> 1:09:55.019 We did the thing. 1:09:55.040 --> 1:09:55.740 Classic quintet. 1:09:55.810 --> 1:09:59.790 Yeah, and they played under his solo. I gave you 1:09:59.830 --> 1:10:02.389 a copy of that for your birthday a few years ago. 1:10:02.510 --> 1:10:03.430 No, I know I have the album. 1:10:03.450 --> 1:10:03.910 You have the album. 1:10:03.950 --> 1:10:04.170 Yes. 1:10:04.650 --> 1:10:09.860 And literally, we had them play under his solo. And 1:10:09.900 --> 1:10:12.740 that's the song, The Struggle Continues, which is amazing. It's 1:10:12.820 --> 1:10:14.720 an amazing song. Yeah. 1:10:26.740 --> 1:10:30.300 So when you get and this is everyone like i 1:10:30.320 --> 1:10:33.280 know springs he's on it was. 1:10:33.180 --> 1:10:38.559 Ruffin ruffin and kendrick's eddie ruffin and not hauling all 1:10:38.580 --> 1:10:41.920 the notes yeah david okay so this is everyone my 1:10:41.979 --> 1:10:44.000 wish list of my favorite. 1:10:44.300 --> 1:10:48.420 Anyone on the wish list that Didn't do it or– I. 1:10:48.400 --> 1:10:51.820 Think we reached out– well, we wanted Cindy Lauper because 1:10:51.860 --> 1:10:54.729 she had been like somewhat in my mind of why. 1:10:54.850 --> 1:10:57.420 The impetus of– Yeah, and she didn't want to do it. 1:10:58.390 --> 1:11:02.410 And I think we got in touch with– God, it 1:11:03.030 --> 1:11:05.670 was either– I mean, we did reach out to Prince. 1:11:05.750 --> 1:11:09.720 We did reach out to– Stevie, Michael Jackson, I think 1:11:09.920 --> 1:11:11.880 they were saying they wanted to do their own. Ashford 1:11:11.900 --> 1:11:14.420 and Simpson, they were going to do their own song. 1:11:14.840 --> 1:11:15.080 Got it. 1:11:15.080 --> 1:11:17.020 So basically there were a lot of people who wanted 1:11:17.050 --> 1:11:20.110 to do their own thing and didn't turn it down. 1:11:20.830 --> 1:11:25.090 Steven talks about Frank Zappa who totally dissed us. He 1:11:25.130 --> 1:11:29.320 went to Steven like, you're just doing this for the press. 1:11:29.420 --> 1:11:30.420 Like a performative. 1:11:30.479 --> 1:11:33.540 Yeah, no, like he was really nasty and Steven was like, 1:11:34.490 --> 1:11:37.229 And he was a real fan of Zappa's. And Stephen said, 1:11:37.270 --> 1:11:40.240 you know, if I wanted press, I just left the 1:11:40.280 --> 1:11:43.480 biggest band in the world. I'm doing it because I 1:11:43.520 --> 1:11:44.599 believe in this thing. 1:11:44.840 --> 1:11:45.040 Right. 1:11:45.340 --> 1:11:48.000 So Zappa was an asshole, you know, which. 1:11:48.220 --> 1:11:49.179 It's always the contrary. 1:11:49.220 --> 1:11:52.460 Yeah. But for the most part, everyone, yeah, we had 1:11:52.500 --> 1:11:55.800 Pete Townsend playing guitar on it. Ringo Starr and Zach 1:11:55.860 --> 1:11:56.910 played drums on it. 1:11:57.320 --> 1:11:59.440 But also at this time period. Ray Barreto. 1:11:59.520 --> 1:12:02.290 I mean, we had, and Gil Scott Heron. Yeah. 1:12:02.370 --> 1:12:03.410 It was huge. I mean. 1:12:03.930 --> 1:12:04.550 Big youth. 1:12:04.710 --> 1:12:09.650 I mean, we, once you completed it, how hard was 1:12:09.729 --> 1:12:13.510 it to get mainstream coverage of it and get the 1:12:13.550 --> 1:12:17.610 support of the press so that the world can be aware? 1:12:17.680 --> 1:12:20.380 No, the press, we had no problem with press. Cause 1:12:20.420 --> 1:12:22.900 what a story it was. I mean, I sent you 1:12:22.939 --> 1:12:26.600 a clip of Greg Tate writing about it. That was amazing. 1:12:26.680 --> 1:12:29.939 I was like, that's one of my favorite reviews ever. 1:12:30.100 --> 1:12:34.360 Cause it's just like such a great review. I'm like, Whatever. 1:12:34.400 --> 1:12:38.380 That was just magic. But we didn't have a problem 1:12:38.420 --> 1:12:41.880 with press. We had a problem with radio. And the 1:12:41.920 --> 1:12:46.840 thing was, we had MTV because we had gotten MTV 1:12:47.180 --> 1:12:49.740 to come on board with us and help us finish 1:12:49.780 --> 1:12:51.660 the video and the making of Doc. 1:12:51.760 --> 1:12:52.049 Got it. 1:12:52.400 --> 1:12:55.320 So basically, we went up to see Les Garland, me 1:12:55.380 --> 1:12:58.790 and Steven, and he was like, Oh, yeah, we'll get involved. 1:12:58.810 --> 1:13:01.350 Because Stephen was a bit– he was on top of 1:13:01.370 --> 1:13:04.810 the world because of Springsteen. It was that moment. So 1:13:05.270 --> 1:13:09.910 basically they came on board. So we had them playing it. 1:13:11.040 --> 1:13:14.460 How we got to finish it really quickly, we had 1:13:14.520 --> 1:13:18.220 a deadline that it was going to be world premiere 1:13:18.300 --> 1:13:22.280 on MTV and wasn't really finished. I finished the edit 1:13:22.300 --> 1:13:25.860 of the video the night before that. We're finishing up, 1:13:25.880 --> 1:13:27.460 me and this guy Hart Perry, who was one of 1:13:27.479 --> 1:13:31.380 the producers, finishing it up. Stephen comes in. He's had 1:13:31.420 --> 1:13:34.590 a full night's sleep, and me and Hart have been 1:13:34.620 --> 1:13:38.550 up doing drugs and finishing the thing. And then that day, 1:13:38.650 --> 1:13:41.670 we walk it over to MTV and hand it to him, 1:13:41.689 --> 1:13:45.670 and two hours later, it's on MTV. World premiere. 1:13:45.689 --> 1:13:48.570 It was just two hours over before? Literally. 1:13:48.760 --> 1:13:51.019 We walked it over, gave them the tape. 1:13:51.680 --> 1:13:54.429 What took so long in order to– Well, have you. 1:13:54.330 --> 1:13:55.070 Seen the video? 1:13:55.390 --> 1:13:55.950 I've seen it. 1:13:56.610 --> 1:13:58.350 It's like pretty crazy video. 1:13:58.450 --> 1:13:58.690 It is. 1:13:59.110 --> 1:14:02.650 And it's seven minutes, right? And we, it just took 1:14:02.689 --> 1:14:05.600 a long, well, Godley and Cream were hired to do 1:14:05.640 --> 1:14:06.080 the edit. 1:14:06.120 --> 1:14:06.960 They, okay. 1:14:07.220 --> 1:14:09.180 So they were doing the edit and me and Hart 1:14:09.200 --> 1:14:12.760 were there with them and they smoke a lot of marijuana, 1:14:13.000 --> 1:14:13.380 as you know. 1:14:13.420 --> 1:14:14.600 You can tell by their videos. 1:14:14.620 --> 1:14:19.729 So basically, so basically we, me and Hart go and, and, 1:14:20.290 --> 1:14:22.920 and they're like packing up. It's the night before we're 1:14:22.939 --> 1:14:25.719 supposed to do the premiere. They're packing their shit up. 1:14:25.750 --> 1:14:28.310 And I'm like, yo, where you guys going? Oh, yeah, mate. 1:14:28.350 --> 1:14:31.010 Sorry I didn't tell you. We got a paid gig 1:14:31.050 --> 1:14:33.790 in London. We got to leave. I go, but it's 1:14:33.830 --> 1:14:34.230 not done. 1:14:34.290 --> 1:14:34.729 It's not done. 1:14:34.990 --> 1:14:40.360 Yeah. Well, sorry. You know, like, sorry. So they leave 1:14:40.400 --> 1:14:42.940 and me and Hart are there. And we're like, oh, shit. 1:14:43.439 --> 1:14:47.540 And Hart is a filmmaker. And there was a tech there. 1:14:48.080 --> 1:14:50.700 And I just call up. a guy to bring us 1:14:50.740 --> 1:14:53.349 something to keep us up all night. And the two 1:14:53.410 --> 1:14:56.710 of us finished the edit. So when you see Bono 1:14:56.810 --> 1:15:01.010 kissing the fat boys in that, that was me. The 1:15:01.050 --> 1:15:03.690 last two minutes, me and Hart did the edit. We 1:15:03.729 --> 1:15:06.970 decided everything in there. So you'll see, I got all 1:15:07.010 --> 1:15:09.519 my boys in there. Fletcher, Mel, Doug. Now I got 1:15:09.530 --> 1:15:12.500 to re-watch this again. No, watch the end and you'll 1:15:12.520 --> 1:15:16.820 see where I took over the edit. But we got 1:15:16.840 --> 1:15:19.220 it in. But the record company, okay, I'll, you know. 1:15:19.620 --> 1:15:21.599 I could talk about this forever, but the record company 1:15:21.620 --> 1:15:27.820 was Manhattan Records, which was Bruce Lunville, who, amazing guy. 1:15:27.840 --> 1:15:30.000 He was my boss at Blue Note, I think. He 1:15:30.180 --> 1:15:32.540 used to work at Columbia, signed Bill Withers. 1:15:32.580 --> 1:15:37.019 Yeah, and then he took over. He had EMI, and 1:15:37.060 --> 1:15:38.820 they made this new label, Manhattan. 1:15:39.140 --> 1:15:39.440 Got it. 1:15:39.460 --> 1:15:41.660 Who I had tried to get the Beastie Boys signed 1:15:41.680 --> 1:15:47.470 to Manhattan. That's a whole other story, but basically, it's 1:15:47.550 --> 1:15:52.740 on Manhattan. and they have their promotional department. And there 1:15:52.780 --> 1:15:56.960 was one guy who was obviously a racist. He was like, 1:15:57.020 --> 1:15:58.400 I can't play. I'm not going to be able to 1:15:58.430 --> 1:16:01.170 get this played. And we had to do different edits 1:16:01.229 --> 1:16:01.809 and all that. 1:16:01.830 --> 1:16:04.349 Yeah, I was going to say, why so many edits 1:16:04.410 --> 1:16:05.070 on the 12-inch? 1:16:05.710 --> 1:16:06.510 Well, there were lots. 1:16:06.530 --> 1:16:07.850 Well, there's a lot of people. 1:16:07.930 --> 1:16:09.750 Well, because I couldn't make a decision because I was 1:16:09.830 --> 1:16:11.049 on cocaine, probably. 1:16:12.860 --> 1:16:16.930 So is each singer... singing the song down, and then 1:16:16.950 --> 1:16:18.030 you decide who gets what line. 1:16:18.150 --> 1:16:18.800 Yeah, exactly. 1:16:19.680 --> 1:16:20.360 Oh, my God. 1:16:20.560 --> 1:16:21.360 No, don't even go there. 1:16:21.380 --> 1:16:22.900 So it wasn't the we are the world method of 1:16:22.920 --> 1:16:24.540 this is your line, this is your line. 1:16:24.560 --> 1:16:26.040 Because I was like. 1:16:27.160 --> 1:16:27.799 Oh, my God. 1:16:27.860 --> 1:16:30.550 I was like, put off the decision until the end. 1:16:30.600 --> 1:16:34.309 And Stephen couldn't make a decision. Some singers would be like, okay, 1:16:34.330 --> 1:16:37.550 you focus on that. that verse. But when you have 1:16:37.650 --> 1:16:41.430 Bobby Womack and George Clinton and Eddie and David, we're like, 1:16:41.910 --> 1:16:44.689 sing the whole thing. We'll figure it out. You know, 1:16:45.170 --> 1:16:49.229 with Bruce, I think, you know, being that we're doing 1:16:49.270 --> 1:16:53.020 this doc and I'm getting all the tapes because I 1:16:53.060 --> 1:16:55.519 want to hear the version with Bruce singing all the 1:16:55.560 --> 1:16:55.960 way through. 1:16:55.979 --> 1:16:59.179 We could, we just missed the 40th. Like, yeah, yeah. 1:16:59.220 --> 1:17:01.590 You could do a version with each person singing it. 1:17:01.620 --> 1:17:04.019 We should. We'll do it when the doc comes out. 1:17:04.080 --> 1:17:06.180 But some of the people who sang it, I mean, 1:17:06.220 --> 1:17:09.620 Bobby Womack, what a singer. I mean, they were all 1:17:09.640 --> 1:17:13.740 in my studio. And they were in my studio together, Bobby, George, Eddie, 1:17:13.800 --> 1:17:14.320 and David. 1:17:14.880 --> 1:17:15.750 I'm afraid to ask. 1:17:15.760 --> 1:17:17.700 And they followed me in the bathroom. 1:17:17.720 --> 1:17:18.660 Yeah, I was going to say. 1:17:18.689 --> 1:17:23.309 They're like, who's holding? 1:17:23.570 --> 1:17:24.370 You hold him in? 1:17:24.410 --> 1:17:28.330 You hold him in? Yeah, I was the ringleader. I 1:17:28.370 --> 1:17:29.860 was definitely the ringleader on it. 1:17:30.250 --> 1:17:35.340 There's a story in– George Clinton's memoir about, it's the 1:17:35.400 --> 1:17:38.299 start of a great joke, which is Sly Stone, George Clinton, 1:17:38.340 --> 1:17:43.540 David Ruffin walk into a cocaine czar's house in Detroit. 1:17:43.760 --> 1:17:44.940 Yeah. 1:17:44.960 --> 1:17:51.670 And somehow Sly manages to, walks the czar to the 1:17:51.710 --> 1:17:55.570 back of the car and lifts the trunk and shows 1:17:55.610 --> 1:17:59.880 him like six two inch reels. And says, this is 1:17:59.960 --> 1:18:05.160 the unreleased Sly and the Family Stone record from like. 1:18:04.040 --> 1:18:04.880 1973 or whatever. 1:18:04.900 --> 1:18:07.280 And the guy's like, eyes got bigger, like, you're giving 1:18:07.300 --> 1:18:10.019 this to me? He's like, yeah, a trade-off. I'll give 1:18:10.040 --> 1:18:12.180 you the unreleased Sly and the Family Stone record. You 1:18:12.200 --> 1:18:14.460 can have the masters release it, make all the money. 1:18:14.939 --> 1:18:16.360 Just give us this key. 1:18:17.310 --> 1:18:19.990 And later that night, they're back in the house. 1:18:20.090 --> 1:18:24.170 And then George realizes that Sly basically gave that guy 1:18:24.229 --> 1:18:27.920 six blank reels. And George woke up at four in 1:18:27.960 --> 1:18:30.200 the morning to sort of broker a deal like, this 1:18:30.240 --> 1:18:31.020 guy will kill me. 1:18:31.220 --> 1:18:32.240 Yeah. 1:18:32.660 --> 1:18:34.420 This is real. Oh, it's in the book. 1:18:34.600 --> 1:18:34.980 Oh, okay. 1:18:35.200 --> 1:18:38.500 And when George admits like what happened, it was like, 1:18:38.600 --> 1:18:42.450 I'll pay the money back. And it shows you how 1:18:42.990 --> 1:18:46.670 charming and charismatic Sly was because anyone else would have 1:18:46.689 --> 1:18:49.050 just like killed George on the spot. And the guy 1:18:49.070 --> 1:18:52.300 is like, oh, wow, man, that guy's so charming. Like 1:18:52.340 --> 1:18:56.540 literally he could charm the pants off you and got 1:18:56.580 --> 1:19:02.400 away with that. But yeah, I can only imagine George Clinton, 1:19:02.620 --> 1:19:04.540 David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks. 1:19:04.560 --> 1:19:05.740 And Bobby Womack. 1:19:05.880 --> 1:19:06.930 And Bobby Womack. 1:19:06.939 --> 1:19:10.900 Bobby Womack, who's- You know, the Rolling Stones, he's a 1:19:11.060 --> 1:19:12.240 seventh member or whatever. 1:19:12.260 --> 1:19:12.820 I know. 1:19:13.760 --> 1:19:14.020 Yeah. 1:19:14.280 --> 1:19:19.190 The only time I've had, I don't even know how 1:19:19.200 --> 1:19:21.070 to get in the story. We did a show with 1:19:21.110 --> 1:19:23.870 Bobby Womack one night and let's just say- You got 1:19:23.890 --> 1:19:24.290 pulled in. 1:19:24.350 --> 1:19:26.470 You got pulled in, you got sucked into the abyss. 1:19:26.750 --> 1:19:29.890 Let's just say that when the ambulance arrived and carried 1:19:29.930 --> 1:19:30.189 him out. 1:19:31.140 --> 1:19:33.120 I ran home. I'm like, I'm not going to jail. 1:19:33.479 --> 1:19:35.500 I'm not going to jail. Like, literally. 1:19:35.520 --> 1:19:36.179 Yeah, yeah. 1:19:36.200 --> 1:19:40.700 We're like, lay down. Bobby Womack. And it's your worst nightmare. 1:19:40.740 --> 1:19:40.979 Yeah. 1:19:41.340 --> 1:19:42.849 And he falls out on stage. 1:19:43.150 --> 1:19:43.910 Oh, really? 1:19:44.070 --> 1:19:46.930 I ran down the street to Manhattan to my hotel room. 1:19:46.970 --> 1:19:51.189 Wow, wow, wow. Yeah. It was an experience that, it's 1:19:51.250 --> 1:19:53.670 my favorite, obviously. It's the thing I'm most proud of 1:19:53.710 --> 1:19:57.050 having done. It's my favorite project because it was just 1:19:57.330 --> 1:20:00.020 the people I got to interact with in the studio. Peter- 1:20:00.410 --> 1:20:03.930 Peter Gabriel, again, he showed up on his own, walks 1:20:03.990 --> 1:20:06.570 in the studio. He had just had the biggest record 1:20:06.600 --> 1:20:08.650 in the world, you know, and he came and he 1:20:08.689 --> 1:20:11.420 just gave him the log drum and the beat, and 1:20:11.460 --> 1:20:14.160 he just created this thing out of thin air. And 1:20:14.200 --> 1:20:17.600 then we went in with Steven and with Doug Winbish, 1:20:17.660 --> 1:20:20.479 and they played a track, and that became, you know, 1:20:20.500 --> 1:20:24.640 No More Apartheid was the name of that song. So 1:20:24.680 --> 1:20:27.680 the album is really magical because it all came out of, 1:20:28.580 --> 1:20:31.230 you know, The stuff we'd recorded, it was sort of 1:20:31.250 --> 1:20:35.570 the first remix, in a way, remix album. Because it really, 1:20:35.630 --> 1:20:39.220 each song, except for Silver and Gold, which Bono wrote 1:20:39.240 --> 1:20:45.680 for Stephen. But it was amazing. It was an amazing experience. 1:20:46.600 --> 1:20:49.910 So knowing, well, I don't know what you know. 1:20:49.870 --> 1:20:54.729 Now, but, you know, Don't do drugs, kids. 1:20:55.050 --> 1:20:58.110 No, no. I'm still talking about the music business. 1:20:58.150 --> 1:20:58.879 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:20:59.300 --> 1:20:59.440 Okay. 1:20:59.450 --> 1:21:02.880 So, you know, I often wonder, you know, had we 1:21:02.920 --> 1:21:07.559 waited five years, you know, we could have benefited from 1:21:07.620 --> 1:21:10.189 like the wave of the internet and all of a 1:21:10.200 --> 1:21:13.150 sudden we, I'm talking about the roots or whatever, but. 1:21:13.410 --> 1:21:16.370 With you seeing how. 1:21:16.170 --> 1:21:21.680 Music is made today and you can create something literally 1:21:21.860 --> 1:21:24.920 on this device and you could share it with billions 1:21:24.960 --> 1:21:25.420 of people. 1:21:25.800 --> 1:21:28.200 Oh, you can sing. I used to sing my ideas 1:21:28.260 --> 1:21:32.120 on a cassette and bass lines and stuff like that. 1:21:32.140 --> 1:21:32.880 Or your answer machine. 1:21:33.100 --> 1:21:35.960 Yeah. And now I can take that cassette that I did, 1:21:36.040 --> 1:21:44.080 which I've done. I've I've got a bass line, which 1:21:44.100 --> 1:21:47.050 is in a way how I always did write because 1:21:47.060 --> 1:21:50.790 I wasn't a trained musician. So I would sing parts 1:21:50.870 --> 1:21:53.729 to my collaborators and they would do it. So I 1:21:55.140 --> 1:21:57.139 sort of- So are you still a tech head? 1:21:57.760 --> 1:21:58.080 I'm not. 1:21:58.220 --> 1:22:01.300 I was never a tech head. I will use technology, 1:22:01.420 --> 1:22:02.599 but I'm not a tech head. 1:22:03.450 --> 1:22:04.830 But you came as the 808. 1:22:04.810 --> 1:22:05.710 You're a tech head. 1:22:05.750 --> 1:22:07.470 Well, sort of, I think. 1:22:07.490 --> 1:22:10.670 Yeah, but I'm not a tech head. I used it 1:22:10.870 --> 1:22:13.799 and I'd fall into it. I would never master it. 1:22:13.870 --> 1:22:14.759 I would totally. 1:22:14.770 --> 1:22:18.840 So you never considered yourself a tech head or a 1:22:18.860 --> 1:22:19.460 gear head? 1:22:19.680 --> 1:22:21.460 No, I used technology. 1:22:21.840 --> 1:22:23.180 But everything about you. 1:22:23.460 --> 1:22:25.800 But I used it, but I wasn't like, I have 1:22:25.840 --> 1:22:28.439 to have that thing. I was never that guy. I 1:22:28.479 --> 1:22:31.900 was not that guy. I wasn't that guy. I was more, 1:22:32.020 --> 1:22:34.700 I was an artist. I am an artist. I will 1:22:35.200 --> 1:22:37.940 take that. I want to make my own music. I 1:22:37.970 --> 1:22:39.559 was never a producer per se. 1:22:39.930 --> 1:22:42.690 Is there an example of a song that you worked 1:22:42.710 --> 1:22:47.190 on that didn't rely on big beats or? 1:22:47.210 --> 1:22:50.190 Al Green, Message is Love, that I wrote the song. 1:22:50.210 --> 1:22:51.070 Is that 87? 80, 89. Okay. 1:22:51.189 --> 1:22:52.970 Yeah, I wrote the song after quitting drugs and I had. 1:22:52.970 --> 1:23:01.559 This vision in my head and I wrote the song 1:23:01.580 --> 1:23:03.599 with my friend and we went in I mean it's 1:23:03.620 --> 1:23:05.939 a drum machine but it's not a drum machine record 1:23:06.920 --> 1:23:10.820 I mean you use I use technology as tools but 1:23:10.900 --> 1:23:13.490 even on play your own risk and all those records 1:23:13.550 --> 1:23:17.870 I made early on there was always acoustic piano I 1:23:17.910 --> 1:23:22.090 always try to keep it grounded in real musicians you 1:23:22.130 --> 1:23:25.370 know I mean really even new edition you know it 1:23:25.390 --> 1:23:27.850 was a drum machine but everything else was played you 1:23:27.890 --> 1:23:33.740 know so I don't find myself, I embrace technology, but 1:23:33.820 --> 1:23:36.600 I'm not all about technology, you know. There are other 1:23:36.620 --> 1:23:37.680 guys who are all about technology. 1:23:37.700 --> 1:23:41.250 Well, this ruins my question because my thing was like, well, 1:23:41.650 --> 1:23:46.630 my thing was like, have you ever like thought about 1:23:46.750 --> 1:23:50.490 developing your own drum sounds, your own drum machines? 1:23:50.729 --> 1:23:53.350 Like, you know, like little John called up and said, oh, 1:23:53.390 --> 1:23:55.310 you got all your samples you should do, you know. 1:23:56.770 --> 1:23:59.490 I'm ADHD. I can't do it. You know, if someone else, 1:24:00.100 --> 1:24:02.400 you know what I mean? I don't, I, I, I've 1:24:02.439 --> 1:24:06.540 had ideas on tech ideas that I won't mention because 1:24:06.560 --> 1:24:09.380 someone will steal it, who hears it, but more to 1:24:09.439 --> 1:24:13.939 do with DJ culture, that there's things that actually, that you, 1:24:14.140 --> 1:24:17.380 you actually said something about something that would, this would 1:24:17.420 --> 1:24:19.940 take care of it. But you know, it's just when 1:24:19.960 --> 1:24:21.470 you're playing different records, you know. 1:24:21.520 --> 1:24:23.450 You said something, I forgot to ask you this long 1:24:23.510 --> 1:24:26.130 ago with developing party time. 1:24:26.170 --> 1:24:26.310 Yeah. 1:24:27.090 --> 1:24:30.630 Like, did you knowingly give the baton to Rick Rubin 1:24:30.650 --> 1:24:35.390 to take over? Because you really didn't go far into 1:24:35.490 --> 1:24:37.430 hip-hop as I expected you to. 1:24:37.439 --> 1:24:38.679 Yeah, and I'll tell you why. 1:24:39.340 --> 1:24:39.880 Tell me why. 1:24:40.460 --> 1:24:44.820 Because I wasn't really bored with it, but the thing was, right, 1:24:45.439 --> 1:24:49.500 I was making hip-hop records or rap records that were 1:24:49.520 --> 1:24:50.240 dance records. 1:24:50.700 --> 1:24:50.920 Right. 1:24:51.080 --> 1:24:55.190 They were all of the Renegades of Funk- Perfect Beat, 1:24:55.270 --> 1:24:57.930 Planet Rock. I made those like I was making a 1:24:57.990 --> 1:25:01.389 dance record with rap on it. When it started going 1:25:01.510 --> 1:25:06.120 downbeat and more, you know, it's always being the perfect. 1:25:06.660 --> 1:25:10.220 I wasn't really, I mean, I liked them, but that 1:25:10.439 --> 1:25:12.240 wasn't what I could make. You know what I mean? 1:25:12.260 --> 1:25:15.220 So when you heard It Takes a Nation of Millions. 1:25:14.939 --> 1:25:17.850 To Hold Us Back or whatever, from a production standpoint, 1:25:17.870 --> 1:25:18.810 was your mind blown? 1:25:18.870 --> 1:25:22.690 Yeah, it was because, yeah, I loved the production on that. 1:25:23.390 --> 1:25:26.570 original concept when they were using the 808 yeah but 1:25:26.590 --> 1:25:29.269 when I heard it's yours Jazzy J played it for 1:25:29.290 --> 1:25:32.790 me I was like because they had obviously listened to 1:25:33.150 --> 1:25:35.930 Planet Rock and been influenced with the crowd right with 1:25:35.970 --> 1:25:38.830 the hook it's you know so basically Rick has said 1:25:38.850 --> 1:25:40.830 you know that was like the first rap record with 1:25:40.910 --> 1:25:42.990 a hook you know with Rock Rock the Planet Rock 1:25:43.610 --> 1:25:45.689 so when I heard it I was like wow this 1:25:45.750 --> 1:25:47.330 is great I want to put it out I want 1:25:47.350 --> 1:25:50.210 to put I and I had started Party Time as 1:25:50.270 --> 1:25:54.460 a rap label but With ADHD, I couldn't focus on it, 1:25:54.479 --> 1:25:56.750 so I started putting out all these other dance records 1:25:56.870 --> 1:25:59.309 on it. So I really lost the focus. 1:25:59.670 --> 1:26:04.130 It's just hitting me right now that you put out 1:26:04.189 --> 1:26:09.070 a record of my godfather. So my dad's best friend 1:26:09.170 --> 1:26:11.150 was a gentleman named Billy Jackson. 1:26:11.350 --> 1:26:13.410 Billy Jackson and the Christmas record, yeah. 1:26:13.479 --> 1:26:16.240 Have a happy Christmas. Yeah, so I was putting. 1:26:17.360 --> 1:26:18.099 I put out records. 1:26:18.120 --> 1:26:19.220 Oh, God, I can't believe. 1:26:19.320 --> 1:26:19.900 Yeah, Billy Jackson. 1:26:19.920 --> 1:26:21.380 Like, it literally hit me at this moment. 1:26:21.400 --> 1:26:22.340 Yeah, you just realized. 1:26:22.420 --> 1:26:24.550 Oh, God, you're responsible for that record. 1:26:24.560 --> 1:26:28.850 So, Billy Jackson, I had Dr. John Jetset. Have you 1:26:28.870 --> 1:26:29.430 ever heard that? 1:26:29.670 --> 1:26:29.930 No. 1:26:30.510 --> 1:26:34.710 That's amazing. That's Ed Fletcher, Duke Booty, wrote the rap 1:26:34.810 --> 1:26:36.590 on it. You've got to, I mean, you've got to 1:26:36.610 --> 1:26:37.560 go listen to it now. 1:26:37.689 --> 1:26:37.900 Okay. 1:26:38.030 --> 1:26:41.559 It's amazing. It's amazing. Like, Ed Fletcher was the percussionist 1:26:41.780 --> 1:26:46.340 in Dr. John's band, and he wrote, obviously, the message. 1:26:46.660 --> 1:26:48.960 And- So Duke Booty was a drummer first? 1:26:49.439 --> 1:26:50.320 He was a percussionist. 1:26:50.360 --> 1:26:51.080 A percussionist, okay. 1:26:51.100 --> 1:26:53.979 So he was a percussionist, jazz percussionist. He played with Dr. John, 1:26:54.080 --> 1:26:57.560 with Mac. Got it. And then once he hit, he 1:26:57.620 --> 1:27:00.640 was writing a lot of stuff that he had done 1:27:01.860 --> 1:27:03.160 for Sugar Hill. 1:27:03.470 --> 1:27:03.660 Uh-huh. 1:27:04.320 --> 1:27:07.370 And then he fell out with Sylvia. Yeah. And then 1:27:07.450 --> 1:27:09.750 he brought me New York, New York. I was going 1:27:09.770 --> 1:27:12.050 to take that and then put it out on Streetwise. Okay. 1:27:12.070 --> 1:27:14.470 But then he got scared that they would kill him, 1:27:14.550 --> 1:27:16.820 you know. So he gave it back to them. But 1:27:17.120 --> 1:27:17.680 Jet Set. 1:27:18.080 --> 1:27:19.800 It was that real back then? 1:27:20.260 --> 1:27:22.220 I don't know if they'd kill him, but he wasn't 1:27:22.300 --> 1:27:24.780 going to risk it. He wasn't going to risk it. 1:27:24.810 --> 1:27:25.990 Or find out. OK. 1:27:26.229 --> 1:27:30.970 So yeah, Rick Rubin. And the thing with that record, 1:27:31.010 --> 1:27:34.710 that blew up. It's yours. And Rick had wanted his 1:27:34.810 --> 1:27:37.760 own sleeve. He had that like totally, I want Def Jam. 1:27:37.820 --> 1:27:40.450 I want Def Jam party time. And then what happened 1:27:40.490 --> 1:27:44.450 was we pressed up 25,000 sleeves because we thought, oh, 1:27:44.530 --> 1:27:48.130 it'll sell about that. And then the sales were through 1:27:48.150 --> 1:27:48.550 the roof. 1:27:49.310 --> 1:27:52.330 So is this the second time you've gotten burnt by success? 1:27:52.570 --> 1:27:54.150 Like something so successful? 1:27:54.410 --> 1:27:57.139 It was more that he wanted us to wait to 1:27:57.180 --> 1:27:59.840 get the covers. And we were saying, well, we're going 1:27:59.850 --> 1:28:02.599 to lose all these sales. So we put out some 1:28:02.640 --> 1:28:06.960 of those not in the Def Jam sleeve, which he 1:28:06.979 --> 1:28:07.939 was pissed off about. 1:28:08.420 --> 1:28:08.740 Got you. 1:28:09.130 --> 1:28:12.310 And then the company, I think, went under before they 1:28:12.350 --> 1:28:16.179 ever got their payments or something, you know, so. Yeah. Yeah. 1:28:16.340 --> 1:28:19.360 Like, I forgot my introduction to Party Time was. So 1:28:20.280 --> 1:28:23.460 the quickest backstory is that in my dad's oldies days, 1:28:24.970 --> 1:28:27.270 another group from Philly is a group called The Times. 1:28:27.530 --> 1:28:27.769 Yeah. 1:28:27.970 --> 1:28:30.809 You little trustmaker. So in love. Yeah, you little, oh God, 1:28:30.850 --> 1:28:34.450 you little trustmaker. Okay, here's even the weirdest part. 1:28:34.470 --> 1:28:35.929 That was a disco era. 1:28:36.470 --> 1:28:37.710 On that same record. 1:28:38.040 --> 1:28:41.879 There's a song called We Are Under the Same Cloud. 1:28:43.220 --> 1:28:43.820 Are You Looking? 1:28:44.240 --> 1:28:45.340 Yeah. And I. 1:28:47.400 --> 1:28:51.390 Hate to say this. You know, it's a song about 1:28:51.970 --> 1:28:53.509 a John cruising the streets. 1:28:54.110 --> 1:28:54.229 Yeah. 1:28:54.970 --> 1:28:55.589 Are you looking? 1:28:55.670 --> 1:28:55.870 Yeah. 1:28:56.290 --> 1:29:00.150 And I forgot that my sister... There was like a 1:29:00.390 --> 1:29:01.309 skit at the beginning. 1:29:01.330 --> 1:29:01.650 Yeah. 1:29:01.850 --> 1:29:04.340 And your sister's on it? My father's driving the car. 1:29:04.380 --> 1:29:07.099 My sister's like, Daddy, look at that woman over there. 1:29:07.120 --> 1:29:10.100 And then you hear, hey, sugar. And that's my mother. 1:29:10.120 --> 1:29:11.240 Oh, my God. 1:29:11.680 --> 1:29:12.500 So I'm like, great. 1:29:12.960 --> 1:29:14.980 Is that on RCA Times? Yes. 1:29:15.160 --> 1:29:17.210 Yes. I have that record. I got to go find it. 1:29:17.220 --> 1:29:17.450 It is. 1:29:17.460 --> 1:29:18.479 It's called Are You Looking? 1:29:18.510 --> 1:29:18.810 Wow. 1:29:18.850 --> 1:29:23.030 But Billy has always been... Anytime he comes around the house... 1:29:23.189 --> 1:29:27.610 He's basically trying to convince my dad to... My dad's 1:29:27.850 --> 1:29:32.240 sort of just been kind of heartbroken over the industry 1:29:32.280 --> 1:29:34.880 and all that stuff and kind of just not wanting 1:29:34.920 --> 1:29:38.059 to do anything. He keeps coming over like, let's make music. 1:29:38.460 --> 1:29:40.950 And I remember one time he gave me a box 1:29:41.370 --> 1:29:43.670 of these records in party time. 1:29:43.790 --> 1:29:44.330 Oh, wow. Okay. 1:29:45.290 --> 1:29:47.430 And I just remember, have a happy Christmas. Have a 1:29:47.490 --> 1:29:48.769 very happy Christmas. 1:29:49.210 --> 1:29:51.610 I didn't sign that one. Put it that way. That 1:29:51.630 --> 1:29:55.400 was my partners who were just signing random stuff. 1:29:55.720 --> 1:30:01.420 Well, look, for you to gather your memories and sort 1:30:01.460 --> 1:30:05.860 of make this book, what is the feeling of finally 1:30:05.930 --> 1:30:08.070 getting this out, especially now that you're in a state 1:30:08.090 --> 1:30:11.110 of sobriety and going through all this stuff in your life? 1:30:11.620 --> 1:30:11.820 Yeah. 1:30:12.060 --> 1:30:14.770 Just like in general, like what's the process of why 1:30:14.810 --> 1:30:16.150 did you feel the need to? 1:30:16.570 --> 1:30:19.110 My wife told me to write the book for my 1:30:19.150 --> 1:30:22.650 daughter because my daughter is 12. So she can't read 1:30:22.689 --> 1:30:25.439 it yet. But when it came out last year, I 1:30:26.460 --> 1:30:28.939 go into her room and there's like a light like 1:30:29.220 --> 1:30:33.700 from under her blanket. And I go, and she's got 1:30:33.720 --> 1:30:35.600 the book, and she's reading it. And she goes. 1:30:35.939 --> 1:30:38.950 Does she know who you are? Or you're just still daddy? 1:30:39.170 --> 1:30:41.630 Well, I'm still daddy. She knows I made records. She 1:30:42.189 --> 1:30:45.370 gradually is knowing that, like, when she hears Planet Rock 1:30:45.570 --> 1:30:47.930 or anything that sounds like that, she goes, that's my 1:30:48.570 --> 1:30:52.860 papa's beat or whatever. But she's in there looking, reading, 1:30:52.920 --> 1:30:55.820 and she's at this chapter in there. And she'd go, 1:30:55.880 --> 1:30:58.080 is this one I shouldn't be reading? And it's the one, 1:30:58.240 --> 1:31:01.510 Too Much Drugs, the chapter. So I go, yeah, you 1:31:01.530 --> 1:31:04.479 can hold off on that. But I did write it. 1:31:04.830 --> 1:31:07.349 I wrote it for that reason. 1:31:07.710 --> 1:31:08.710 That's a beautiful reason. 1:31:08.850 --> 1:31:11.330 And I got a publishing deal for it before I 1:31:11.570 --> 1:31:13.839 had written it. I had a couple of chapters, and 1:31:13.880 --> 1:31:17.240 they thought you can write pretty well. And at first 1:31:17.300 --> 1:31:20.240 I was going to work with someone, and then I 1:31:20.280 --> 1:31:22.160 was working with a really good friend of mine who 1:31:22.200 --> 1:31:26.060 became an editor, but He put it in more British 1:31:26.100 --> 1:31:28.890 because he's English. And I was like, I would never– 1:31:28.970 --> 1:31:31.530 I didn't say that because we talked through a few chapters. 1:31:31.550 --> 1:31:34.010 I never said that. So I said, I'm going to 1:31:34.050 --> 1:31:36.830 write it, which again, I wrote it myself. And then 1:31:37.390 --> 1:31:41.160 that was really difficult for me because of the ADHD. 1:31:41.220 --> 1:31:46.080 But I had the check and I had like– A third, 1:31:46.140 --> 1:31:48.560 a third, a third. So I actually did it and 1:31:48.620 --> 1:31:51.540 did it pretty much in a timely fashion. But it 1:31:51.580 --> 1:31:53.920 was great because I remember a lot, right? I do 1:31:53.960 --> 1:31:58.030 remember a lot. But then I had kept all track 1:31:58.050 --> 1:32:02.550 sheets and cassettes that were dated. A dated cassette is 1:32:02.870 --> 1:32:05.720 very important because- I know this. You're in the studio. 1:32:05.880 --> 1:32:09.280 I was making that mix with Bruce Springsteen on that date. 1:32:09.780 --> 1:32:12.040 But wait a minute. I was working with Hall & Oates- 1:32:12.520 --> 1:32:13.420 On that day, too. 1:32:13.479 --> 1:32:13.780 Right. 1:32:14.040 --> 1:32:16.550 I went to two studios in one day. Oh, shit. 1:32:16.570 --> 1:32:17.370 How did I, you know. 1:32:17.390 --> 1:32:19.190 So this helps you remember your timeline. It was the 1:32:19.290 --> 1:32:19.750 only way. 1:32:19.870 --> 1:32:22.430 And all the press clippings that my dad had kept. 1:32:23.010 --> 1:32:23.210 Nice. 1:32:23.229 --> 1:32:25.750 So I went through the press clippings, and I had 1:32:25.790 --> 1:32:28.300 a song called Leave the Guns at Home with Al 1:32:28.340 --> 1:32:29.460 Green that I wrote, right? 1:32:29.479 --> 1:32:29.900 Uh-huh. 1:32:30.160 --> 1:32:34.059 With Greg Fillinganes. And the day that I was meant 1:32:34.100 --> 1:32:37.600 to go to write with Greg, I was in the 1:32:37.660 --> 1:32:41.150 Mondrian in LA, and I pick up a copy of 1:32:41.229 --> 1:32:44.960 Rolling Stone magazine. I had no idea for the song. 1:32:45.020 --> 1:32:50.430 I'm like, okay, I'm reading, reading, reading. And KRS-One, there's 1:32:50.470 --> 1:32:55.090 an article, KRS-One, he's talking about when his fans come 1:32:55.170 --> 1:32:59.170 to his gigs, he tells them to leave their guns 1:32:59.270 --> 1:33:01.390 at home. And I thought, oh, my God, that is 1:33:01.430 --> 1:33:06.070 the perfect chorus for this song. I had totally forgotten 1:33:06.110 --> 1:33:09.570 about that until I found some press from 30 years 1:33:09.970 --> 1:33:13.559 ago With me telling that story. I didn't remember it 1:33:13.600 --> 1:33:16.360 at all. Oh. So reading my old press where I 1:33:16.380 --> 1:33:19.700 had said this stuff, it gave me, you know, half, 1:33:19.900 --> 1:33:22.960 not half, but quite a bit of the book would 1:33:23.000 --> 1:33:26.660 not have existed if I wasn't a hoarder. Wow. I hoarded- 1:33:26.729 --> 1:33:27.269 Thank God. 1:33:27.350 --> 1:33:28.470 From one hoarder to another. 1:33:28.689 --> 1:33:30.810 Don't throw away your press clippings, you know? 1:33:31.130 --> 1:33:33.250 Never. Arthur, thank you very much for this. 1:33:33.270 --> 1:33:37.670 I'm glad we've done it. We- It's taking forever. From 1:33:37.750 --> 1:33:40.250 day one, you had just started. We're on the roof 1:33:40.330 --> 1:33:42.870 at the Soho House in Miami. I know. I'm going 1:33:42.890 --> 1:33:44.210 to get you on, man. I know. 1:33:45.370 --> 1:33:45.950 We made it happen. 1:33:46.030 --> 1:33:48.170 And then when the book came out and you had 1:33:48.189 --> 1:33:51.230 like stopped the podcast, I was like, oh my God. Sorry. 1:33:51.550 --> 1:33:51.969 I'm sorry. 1:33:51.990 --> 1:33:54.170 But no, this is great. And thank you. And it's 1:33:54.229 --> 1:33:57.220 always a pleasure to sit down and chat with you. 1:33:57.439 --> 1:34:00.120 Good, sir. Thank you. Arthur Baker, ladies and gentlemen. We'll 1:34:00.140 --> 1:34:01.960 see you on the next Go Around Questlove Show. 1:34:07.310 --> 1:34:12.150 Questlove Show is hosted by me, Amir Questlove Thompson. Executive 1:34:12.170 --> 1:34:18.100 producers are Sean G., Brian Calhoun, and me. Produced by 1:34:18.220 --> 1:34:23.760 Brittany Benjamin and Jake Payne. Produced for iHeart by Noel Brown. 1:34:24.900 --> 1:34:32.120 Edited by Alex Connelly. iHeart video support by Mark Canton. Logos, graphics, 1:34:32.189 --> 1:34:34.010 and animation by Nick Aloi. 1:34:35.800 --> 1:34:36.009 Thank you. 1:34:36.020 --> 1:34:36.250 Thank you. 1:35:05.880 --> 1:35:08.230 Questlove shows and production of iHeartRadio.