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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to It could happen here. I'm Andrew

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Speaker 3: Siege as soon as andreism on YouTube, and I'm here

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Speaker 3: with me. It's James, And honestly I shouldn't see welcome

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Speaker 3: to it could happen. Yeah, I shouldlready see welcome to

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Speaker 3: it is happening here, because I mean, just just a

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Speaker 3: second with you, James, how are you doing. You're safe?

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Speaker 4: I'm okay, Yeah, I'm safe. Right now. We are living

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Speaker 4: through wild times in the United States. Every day is

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Speaker 4: a new hell.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, indeed, and although I'm not in the US, the

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Speaker 3: flames of that hell definitely lack the rest of the

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Speaker 3: world in weis big and small.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they definitely do. I was just talking to people

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Speaker 4: in Syria yesterday and like the alavis Ala white whenever

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Speaker 4: you want to call a levees, so if you want

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Speaker 4: to say it, are facing quite substantial persecution currently, and

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Speaker 4: like one of the larger refugee accepting countries in the

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Speaker 4: world just isn't doing that anymore unless you're a white

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Speaker 4: South African of course, and like that has these massive

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Speaker 4: trickle down effects for everywhere. It's just one example of

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Speaker 4: how America so goes, the US so goes the world.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, indeed, and not just in Syria, are the flames

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Speaker 3: of conflict tearing up with the part I think most

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Speaker 3: people I now know what the situation in Palestine, the

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Speaker 3: way that Israel was carrying on to genocide there. You know,

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Speaker 3: the Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the civil war in Myanmar,

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Speaker 3: in Sudan, the you know, struggle between India and Pakistan

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Speaker 3: over Kashmir and the kashmir people who are you know,

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Speaker 3: left on the on the wayside. You know, the Tamil

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Speaker 3: genocide yep, taking place some in Sri Lanka. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's so many things happening across the world right now,

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Speaker 3: it's really difficult to keep up.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the friends in me Emma would prefer the framing

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Speaker 4: of revolution to civil war. They're pretty explicit about that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right, I should

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Speaker 3: be using that that terminology.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not it's not appropriate everywhere. But in their case,

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Speaker 4: there has been a civil war since forty eight, and

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Speaker 4: it's a substantial change with the twenty twenty one revolution.

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Speaker 3: Right right, right, right, Yeah, thank you for that correction.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, of course.

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Speaker 3: I think now is a really good time to have

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Speaker 3: a general, almost strategic discussion on anti war struggle, and

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Speaker 3: so today I really want to look at how we

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Speaker 3: can come to the propaganda around war, the actions that

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Speaker 3: are possible to take against militarism at home, and we

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Speaker 3: could build solidarity across oceans and borders. So to understand

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Speaker 3: how to actuate against war, we first need to agitate

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Speaker 3: against militarism. And those who don't know, militarism is the

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Speaker 3: belief or policy that the nation should maintain a strong

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Speaker 3: military and be prepare to use it aggressively to defend

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Speaker 3: or promote its interests. It often involves glorifying military virtues

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Speaker 3: and ideals, and prioritizing military strength and readiness above other

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Speaker 3: aspects of society such a basic Google definition. My copy

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Speaker 3: of the Anarchist Encyclopedia is the English version, which is aberged, sadly,

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Speaker 3: but the original French has the full unabridged Anarchist Encyclopedia.

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Speaker 3: So with a bit of shaky online translation magic and

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Speaker 3: managed to pull its definition of militarism as well. Miltarism

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Speaker 3: is a system that consists of having and maintaining military personnel.

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Speaker 3: It's essential and avoult goal is a preparation for war.

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Speaker 3: The recruitment of a standing army in the organization of

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Speaker 3: the cageris of reserve army. The accumulation that put it

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Speaker 3: in place turn into the state of service of ever

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Speaker 3: more modern, more perfected war material. In short, is the

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Speaker 3: preliminary organization of war. All are the implications of that, well,

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Speaker 3: all over the world, I think we can see, you know,

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Speaker 3: the consequences of statism, the might makes right, pursuit of conquest,

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Speaker 3: the fighting wars abroad or at home, for the strategic interests,

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Speaker 3: ideological commitments, resource claims, whatever the case may be. The

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Speaker 3: rivalries within the ruling class, and how that pleas out,

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Speaker 3: and how it's that that blows back on all of

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Speaker 3: our faces. You know, the profits the military industrial complex

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Speaker 3: which keeps this whole system chuning on, you know, the

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Speaker 3: blood of innocence. Of course, the longstanding consequences and continued

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Speaker 3: work of colonialism. And of course the way is that

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Speaker 3: militarism gets turned inward with this suppression of strikes, of activism,

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Speaker 3: of popular unrest. When the now militarized police aren't enough,

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Speaker 3: they often bring in the military itself and reports. With militarism,

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Speaker 3: we also have the narrative component, you know, the building

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Speaker 3: of patriotism that so plans the seed of fascism. States

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Speaker 3: can survive without militaries. It is true the state typically

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Speaker 3: depends upon some effort or some attempt at monopoly on

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Speaker 3: the legitimate use of violence within the territory by some definitions.

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Speaker 3: But the states which do not have militaries often can

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Speaker 3: do so because they've outsourced the military functions to another state,

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Speaker 3: and or because they have other systems in place to

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Speaker 3: control descent, to develop a certain degree of social condition

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Speaker 3: and pacify the population.

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Speaker 4: I'm just trying to think of states that are militaries

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Speaker 4: like in my experience, I guess you have like the

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Speaker 4: Panama right doesn't have a military, it has the Center Front,

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Speaker 4: which are like the frontier Protection I guess, but essentially

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Speaker 4: like a militarized border patrol. And they do have marines

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Speaker 4: and stuff as well, I guess, so they kind of

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Speaker 4: do have a military, but it's a kind of a

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Speaker 4: renaming exercise more than anything.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, the same thing of having a militarized police, but

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Speaker 3: it's not a military technically.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, having a militarized coast guard and it's not a

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Speaker 3: military technically, you know.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. You have the countries like the Republic the Marshall Islands,

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Speaker 4: which just outsources its militarization to the United States, right

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Speaker 4: like the US. Well, I think that is a distinct thing.

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Speaker 4: The people in the Marshall Islands have seen the horrors

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Speaker 4: of war very closely and also the danger of militarization,

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Speaker 4: right like, the United States nuked the Marshall Islands, a

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Speaker 4: country with which it had no quarrel, with which it

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Speaker 4: was not at war, just to practice in case it

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Speaker 4: needed to in Nuk, a country with which it did

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Speaker 4: have a quarrel. I guess the legacy of that is

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Speaker 4: very obvious and continues to this day there. But if

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Speaker 4: marshal Ly's people wish to join a military. They can

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Speaker 4: join the US military, and the US guarantees the security

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Speaker 4: and theory that it's it's yeah, it is again distinctly.

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Speaker 4: For instance, if you join the US military in the

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Speaker 4: Marshall Islands wish to access your veterans benefits, the easiest

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Speaker 4: way to do so is to take a five hour

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Speaker 4: flight to Hawaii. Like, like, they don't have any any

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Speaker 4: any benefits for victual veterans there. So I guess in

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Speaker 4: that case, like maybe it does give people a different

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Speaker 4: relationship to like state violence.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I mean, obviously different places to have different

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Speaker 3: histories as to how they came to those arrangements. But

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Speaker 3: you definitely see our relationship between colonialism and the outsourcing

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Speaker 3: of military functions.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 3: Now, historically anarchists have been anti militarists. The encyclopedias call

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Speaker 3: this aspect of the anarchist struggle, the aim to disqualifying militarism,

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Speaker 3: to denounce it's terrible and painful consequences, to combat the

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Speaker 3: warlike and barracks for distigmatize and dishonor war to a

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Speaker 3: ball the regime of the armies, so abolish and militarism

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Speaker 3: looks like material relief from the oppression military violence, the

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Speaker 3: redirection of resources that go toward military toward instead things

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Speaker 3: that actually benefit the lives of everyday people, you know,

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Speaker 3: the reduction of pain and suffering throughout the world, the

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Speaker 3: abolition of borders which so often are the motivating force

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Speaker 3: behind military exercise. And while no anarchist to deny that

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Speaker 3: armed struggle is necessary for defense, it's not the same

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Speaker 3: as having an imperialistic or hierarchical ambition toward you know,

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Speaker 3: power over towards dominating populations of people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this reminds me of the discussion that happened in

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Speaker 4: the CNT and Spain in the nineteen thirties previous to

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Speaker 4: the Civil War. Even before that, right where they there

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Speaker 4: was a very profound, an obvious discussion on like how

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Speaker 4: to defend their evolution, how to defend communities whilst maintaining

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Speaker 4: anti militarism. And that's why we didn't see like there

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Speaker 4: was not a like standing army beyond you had affinity groups, right,

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Speaker 4: and then you had like defense committees of six six

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Speaker 4: to eight people, and those people like took on the

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Speaker 4: role of organizing for a potential violent like in order

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Speaker 4: to defend the community right, like to use violence to

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Speaker 4: defend the community against violence. But even as it became

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Speaker 4: clearer and clearer that Spain was like spiraling towards conflict,

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Speaker 4: they resisted the idea of establishing and I think more

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Speaker 4: militarized than that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think so core. It's been a really

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Speaker 3: good place to look at for really some experiments or efforts,

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Speaker 3: so ideas would have played out, strategies would have played out,

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Speaker 3: and I think it's really important to take those experiments

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Speaker 3: and see how we can iterate on them. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: build upon them, because I mean what I've always admired

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Speaker 3: that we've carried on this anti militarist torch. It's very

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Speaker 3: important to remember the landscape has changed from war times past.

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Speaker 3: You know, we're not in World War times anymore. You know,

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Speaker 3: the strategies and the discussions and the approaches that may

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Speaker 3: have worked back then, it doesn't work this in the

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Speaker 3: same way now. You don't even have to declare war

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Speaker 3: officially anymore. In this day and age. You can just

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Speaker 3: say that, oh, you're doing a special military operation, or

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Speaker 3: you can just send billions of dollars of aid to

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Speaker 3: a country that you want to support, and even troops

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Speaker 3: to the countries want to support, and technically you have

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Speaker 3: un declared warrior. Yeah, and you know, not only that,

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Speaker 3: you also get to unleash generational trauma and poison upon

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Speaker 3: generations of people. But it's okay because you're going after

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Speaker 3: some terrorists. You know, you just get to push money

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Speaker 3: and supplies towards this camp or that and whether the

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Speaker 3: US is concerned and at least used to have to

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Speaker 3: seek congressional approval, but as we see, that's not really

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Speaker 3: a thing now, especially post nine eleven. You know, back

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Speaker 3: in the day, people thought putting pressure on the elected

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Speaker 3: officials through protests probably enough, and you know there's the

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Speaker 3: b to be had to the extent to which that

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Speaker 3: worked for situations like the Vietnam War. But as we've

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Speaker 3: seen with this song and Dance again and again and again,

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Speaker 3: the protests are not hitting like they used to. You know,

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Speaker 3: the response to the protest has been so it's routine

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Speaker 3: at this point. You know, you just send the police

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Speaker 3: to bash the heads in or bet to get the military,

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Speaker 3: because the movers and the shakers on the people who

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Speaker 3: can actually be reached with these protests, you know, and

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Speaker 3: no matter how peaceful we proclaim our protests to be

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Speaker 3: we're talking about moneyed interests here. You know, a military

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Speaker 3: industrial complex that has to have lyne go up, you

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Speaker 3: know who, Yeah, doesn't have to give a down about

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Speaker 3: some people walking on the road. You know, the system

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Speaker 3: has grown since the nineteen tens, the nineteen fourteen years.

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Speaker 3: It has grown in such size and complexity to the

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Speaker 3: point where you know, you don't have to care necessarily

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Speaker 3: about a single movement part about a single action of protests.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and the two kind of combine. And like what

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Speaker 4: we're seeing in the United Kingdom right now, right like

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Speaker 4: there's the complete dismissal of protests and this like I'm

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Speaker 4: thinking a better word than imprecise, but like the vagueness

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Speaker 4: of the definition of terrorism has allowed the government of

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Speaker 4: the United Kingdom, in combination with the absence of a

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Speaker 4: Bill of Rights in the United Kingdom, right to just

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Speaker 4: be like, oh, Palestine Action and terrorists like you are

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Speaker 4: the same as the Islamic State, because Palestine Action undertook

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Speaker 4: it in non violent direct action. Right, But it's ludicrous

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Speaker 4: to suggest that that that was terrorism and that it

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Speaker 4: doesn't mean any reasonable definition of the term. But yet,

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Speaker 4: where we were in a stage now where governments can

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Speaker 4: declare anyone the enemy without any particular oversight, and that's

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Speaker 4: the logical conclusion of two decades of this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean to an extent, that has always been

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Speaker 3: the case. I think what's different now is that they're

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Speaker 3: not even really attempting to hide behind any sort of

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Speaker 3: consistent principles or consistent standards, you know, because even back

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Speaker 3: back then, you know, the nartists are being called terrorists

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Speaker 3: and being m m true, you know, chastised for that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess also, like our class system is more

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Speaker 4: entrenched than it ever has been in a sense, I'm

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Speaker 4: just thinking, like, wars are not fought by the mass

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Speaker 4: of middle class, and like the people who become senators

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Speaker 4: for the most part, right, I mean, in the US

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Speaker 4: and downs, senators will have done military service. It can

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Speaker 4: sort of boost their career opportunities. I get that, But

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Speaker 4: like it is not for the most part, the sons

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Speaker 4: of the of the people who who start the wars

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Speaker 4: who die in the wars.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's indeed people of.

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Speaker 4: A different class in a way that even in a

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Speaker 4: distinct way from the era of the World wars. Right,

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Speaker 4: when when large numbers of people of the middle class,

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Speaker 4: especially maybe not the very privileged people that like did

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Speaker 4: die in those wars. And I think like the memory

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Speaker 4: of the First World War probably did have some impact

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Speaker 4: on like the reticence of some politicians to dive into

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Speaker 4: the second one. But we don't really have that now.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, so we criticize this particular approach of the protest,

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Speaker 3: and I know that the inavertable question is, so what

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Speaker 3: can we even do at this point? And you know,

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Speaker 3: this is why I consider it very important to take

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Speaker 3: a step back and look at what is actually keeping

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Speaker 3: the system going right, and what's keeping the system going

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Speaker 3: is and has always been labor right. Not to say

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Speaker 3: that labor and labor struggles to be all and and

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Speaker 3: all of our politics, but it is to say that

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Speaker 3: if we want to make a significant impact, that is

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Speaker 3: what we have the greatest control over our labor. And

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Speaker 3: so when I talk about things we can do to

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Speaker 3: affect change, I always had to take it back to

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Speaker 3: the ongoing process of social revolution. The things you do

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Speaker 3: to oppose and the things you do to propose, you know,

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Speaker 3: on the opposing side of things, that includes counter messaging.

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Speaker 3: You know, even though we may not have the resources

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Speaker 3: of mainstream media or government communications, We have weight of mouth,

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Speaker 3: we have trust between ourselves, and we have alternative media

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Speaker 3: that can be, especially in this day and age, just

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Speaker 3: as powerful if sparked right, especially considering the fact that

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Speaker 3: the general center and the populist sentiment has, whether coming

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Speaker 3: from a leftist direction or a right dist direction, the

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Speaker 3: general sentiment has been moving toward anti establishment poll of sics.

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Speaker 3: The anti establishment sort of momentum is what's growing right now,

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Speaker 3: and the issue of course being that sometimes that anti

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Speaker 3: establishment momentum can be hijacked, such as what Trump did,

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Speaker 3: you know, to get himself elected the first time he

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Speaker 3: rode that wave and you know, this whole Epstein situation,

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Speaker 3: we may see that foundation of his base potentially crumbling

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Speaker 3: apart a bit. But we have to look at what

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Speaker 3: is actually motivating people right now and how they can

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Speaker 3: be reached. An alternative media with an anti establishment mess

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Speaker 3: message is I think one of the better ways to

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Speaker 3: do so, you know, wherever you see it.

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Speaker 2: He needs to be out.

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Speaker 3: There, you know, on social media or through a the

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Speaker 3: avenue is calling out the ridiculous Cassius bellues used to

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Speaker 3: manufacture consent for war. You know, to be wary of

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Speaker 3: potential forced flags can be used as a justification for

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Speaker 3: military action to consistently poke holes in the narratives that

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Speaker 3: have allowed you know, nationalists and and xenophobic sentiments to

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Speaker 3: become the force that they have become today, and of

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Speaker 3: course even engaged in that message, and of course ty

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Speaker 3: not to let campus infect your counter message in either.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's how you get people who are you know,

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Speaker 3: they gung, who are about a free Palestine, and then they

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Speaker 3: start when they ask them about Ukraine, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: it's actually really complicated. It's actually the fault of the

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Speaker 3: US and the EU and na too, and not Russia,

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Speaker 3: even though Russia is the one who actually invaded and

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Speaker 3: is actively killing people in distrial infrastructure as we speak, right.

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Speaker 3: I Mean, there's conversation to be had about the US

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Speaker 3: and EU and about NATO obviously, but it's very.

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Speaker 4: Clear, Yeah, it's very uncomplicated who's.

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Speaker 3: Actually killing people right now?

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Speaker 4: You know, Yeah, there is one country which is taking

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Speaker 4: children right and trying to like re educate them give

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Speaker 4: them to families in Russia, which is committing murders of civilians.

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Speaker 4: Like we don't have to like resort to like ten

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Speaker 4: year geopolitical trajectories to say that it's wrong and it

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Speaker 4: should be opposed exactly exactly.

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Speaker 3: And also I want to make this point about counter

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Speaker 3: messaging because it's a consistent gripe I've had, In fact,

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Speaker 3: one of the main reasons I started my channel in

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Speaker 3: the first place. With your comment message in whether it's

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Speaker 3: in person or on the internet or wherever, does stay

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Speaker 3: perpetually on the back foot, you know, the words don't

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Speaker 3: just counter message? Yeah, you know, right now, And it's

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Speaker 3: what irritates me so much. The right wing sets the conversation. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, you have people they say, oh, we want

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Speaker 3: to talk about critical race theory, and then everybody's talking

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Speaker 3: about critical race theory because they talk to or they

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Speaker 3: want to target trans people, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: we have to scrabble to respond to all their erroneous

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Speaker 3: and ridiculous claims about trans people. That comets messages is important,

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Speaker 3: is important, but it cannot be all that we do, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and this is a bit how to let feel. But

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Speaker 3: you know, of course I'm not the one who is

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Speaker 3: partialty liketoral approaches. But you can see some of that

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Speaker 3: not just counter message in but also actively messaging taking

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Speaker 3: place with Zora Mum. Danny's strategy, you know, when you

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Speaker 3: look at how he speaks, how he addresses some of

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Speaker 3: the badly the arguments are made against him. His rhetorical

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Speaker 3: strength and popularity in part lies on his refusal to

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Speaker 3: carry on the conversation on the enemies too, you know,

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Speaker 3: so they will go at him for something and he's

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Speaker 3: going to spit it right back around owned to talking

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Speaker 3: about the things that it's just really matter to people

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Speaker 3: to set the conversations to get people to respond to that,

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Speaker 3: because all other response is toward him have been trying

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Speaker 3: to distract from his actual messaging and his ability to

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Speaker 3: steal on message as something I find really admirable, despite

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Speaker 3: you know, my concerns about the investment of energy and

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Speaker 3: electoral strategies.

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Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, there are certain things we can

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Speaker 4: admire about these people if we don't agree with everything.

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Speaker 4: And I do think like in that sense, something I

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Speaker 4: think about a lot with like messaging and countermessaging, especially

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Speaker 4: around war. It's like I spent some time in the

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Speaker 4: Anes and what people call Java, and like one of

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Speaker 4: the framings that I've consistently seen and it's mostly in

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Speaker 4: like the lib leaning mass media, I guess is that

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Speaker 4: people went to Rejaba to fight against IS or Dash

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Speaker 4: or Isis, whatever you want to call it, right, and

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Speaker 4: like in doing so, that is how the revolutionary Jarba

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Speaker 4: is not understood by most people, right, and they have

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Speaker 4: taken the power away from it in their framing of it,

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Speaker 4: because people didn't just go. Some people did go. Justify

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Speaker 4: I s right that there. They went because they saw

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Speaker 4: what I was doing. They understood its inhumane and they

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Speaker 4: wanted that to stop, and that's admirable. But people also

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Speaker 4: went because they saw what people were building in Rajava

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Speaker 4: and they thought that was beautiful and they wanted to

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Speaker 4: defend it, and that's admirable too. And sometimes the messaging

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Speaker 4: around specifically ra Java, Mi and Mar to an extent

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Speaker 4: right there international volunteers there too, and of course that

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Speaker 4: like folks from the Amma who have picked up weapons

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Speaker 4: who never thought they would, and they didn't just do

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Speaker 4: it to oppose the Hunter. They did it because like

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Speaker 4: in there, despite all the horrible things about war then

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Speaker 4: and like it should be avoided at all costs. In

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Speaker 4: the conflict, they have built liberated spaces and they've experienced freedom,

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Speaker 4: they have experienced how that feels and they've built a

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Speaker 4: revolution that is beautiful in spite of the war, not

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Speaker 4: not because of it, and they want to defend that.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's a messaging that we should we

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Speaker 4: should consider, right, like, because the messaging that everything has

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Speaker 4: to be against something bad always sort of it presupposes

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Speaker 4: that that they can't have been something good, and in

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Speaker 4: some cases there has been something good, and like, we

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Speaker 4: won't fully understand what was happening there unless we understand that.

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Speaker 4: And I think we should push back on that messaging

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Speaker 4: what we see it, especially in the great legacy media.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, and that really connects to the you know,

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Speaker 3: the other aspect of the social revolution paradigm, because it's

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Speaker 3: not just about a pousion and so it's proposing that

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Speaker 3: that's something different. Yeah, and that is often far more

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Speaker 3: energizing than simply talking everything that's wrong with the world.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 3: And I think also for those who maybe have concerns

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Speaker 3: about the risks of oppositional messaging, there's another area where

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Speaker 3: you can direct your energy to support the opposition without

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Speaker 3: necessarily actively being involved in it, you know, because it's

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Speaker 3: not enough to just oppose the system. You have to

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Speaker 3: build something else, and you could be part of that

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Speaker 3: building something else. You know, swim a message and you

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Speaker 3: want to be able to redirect people's energies to the

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Speaker 3: actual frustrations and interests, you know, to re center the

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Speaker 3: conflict and the lens on the actual divisions of society,

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Speaker 3: such as class, to make money interests known. And you know,

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Speaker 3: even though it's never been easy to be anti war,

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Speaker 3: you know, especially in the center of empire, and in

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Speaker 3: many ways, technologies today have empowered much greater repression. You know,

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Speaker 3: in Russia, individual and mass protests are met with severe oppression,

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Speaker 3: massive finds, sentences, et cetera. In the US you can

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Speaker 3: face police brutality, censorship, even deportation. And in Israel, well,

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Speaker 3: I haven't seen or heard anything from the Israeli populus

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Speaker 3: in terms of resisting what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

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Speaker 3: But I know that those who do stand against the

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Speaker 3: mandatory conscription do face jail time for their refusal. So

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Speaker 3: it's not easy to be anti war, especially in militarized

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Speaker 3: and empire building territories. I get that stress and that worry,

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Speaker 3: that opposition is still necessary, but there's other things. But

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Speaker 3: we can we do it than just message it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: You know, there are things that take on less risk,

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Speaker 3: such as building an alternative, and there are things that

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Speaker 3: take on more risks. Now protests, even peaceful protests, are

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Speaker 3: no longer risk free endeaverts. And I know what most

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Speaker 3: people hear about, you know, we need to push back.

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Speaker 3: They hear, okay, that's all going to as a protest. Honestly,

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Speaker 3: we could use a bit more imagination in this day

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Speaker 3: and age. Like I said, the protest is not hitten

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Speaker 3: like I used to. It's become like a pressure valve

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Speaker 3: or a tool of passification that could be tolerated for

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Speaker 3: a time and then met with repression the moment it's

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Speaker 3: time to wrap it up. And they have a couple

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Speaker 3: of reasons why protests are not you know, able to

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Speaker 3: do as much. You know, they have the moneyed interests.

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Speaker 3: You know, they can end up being divided according to

434
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 3: various arguments of a strategy. And I'm sorry to say this,

435
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 3: but protests as of late haven't accomplished very much besides

436
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 3: getting people mutilated or jailed or worse in the past

437
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 3: few years. And in fact, a lot of the resources

438
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 3: that could be spent you know, building alternatives are being

439
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 3: spent instead on you know, paying people's bonds and getting

440
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,360
Speaker 3: people out of jail, prison, relieve that sort of thing.

441
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 3: Not to say those things are not necessary, you know,

442
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 3: don't leave your comrades to trot and jail. But I

443
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 3: think we need to consider the free data that we've

444
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 3: basically been giving away to the relaying class in the

445
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: form of pictures, names, addresses, identifying data that they can

446
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 3: be used to repress or dis erupt or infiltrate protesters

447
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 3: and protesting organizations down the line, as James Herod and

448
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 3: synother James. As James Herod wrote in the Weakness of

449
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 3: our Politics of protest, we have been getting some of

450
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 3: these critiques of protests from He says, thus, instead of

451
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 3: powerfully concentrate in our mental and physical energies on solving

452
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 3: this problem to eliminate this obstacle to defeating capitalism, we

453
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 3: are taking to the streets once again, mainly protested, merely

454
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 3: incased in what is basically mindless active end quote. Later,

455
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 3: he says, it's easy to agree on what to protest against.

456
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 3: The list of things that need to be stopped on

457
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: the capitalism is long, so long, in fact, we don't

458
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 3: even need to agree, there's plenty to choose from, so

459
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 3: just pick something that suits you. Perhaps this is why

460
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 3: I meant so many activists got involved in protesting. It's

461
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 3: not so easy though, to figure out what we want

462
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: to replace capitalism with, to work out convincing arguments about

463
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 3: how it will possibly work, and they set about creating

464
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 3: such a social world, especially since so little energy has

465
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 3: been devoted to the task end quote. And you know,

466
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: I get why protests are popular. You know, as he says,

467
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 3: it has a low barrier to entry. You just have

468
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: to show up. And in a society that has been

469
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 3: so deliberately atomized, where mass collective action has we made

470
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 3: so difficult, protests has become pretty much a very easy

471
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 3: avenue to get those things done. Yeah, and you know,

472
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 3: protests can work in Sydney instances for limits any goals.

473
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 3: But I think that those uses are diminishing dyd in

474
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 3: the cost benefits analysis.

475
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm just thinking about Like there was a letter

476
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 4: Georgi or wil wrote to one of his readers on

477
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 4: the subject of anti fascism, where all Well was lamenting

478
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 4: that the anti fascism that he was encountering in England.

479
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 4: Right in between his participation in the Spanish Civil War

480
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 4: and the Second World War was always centered on hate,

481
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 4: and like it's sort of an idea. We get the

482
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 4: two Minutes of Hate later in nineteen eighty four, right,

483
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 4: but maybe it comes from here, And like it never

484
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 4: proposed an alternative. It just said it pointed to something.

485
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 4: It said bad, something I've tried not to do in

486
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 4: my journalism, right. It is very often we do this

487
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 4: with a journalists too. We point something and say bad,

488
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 4: and we don't look for the ways that it could

489
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 4: become better. And so like protesting could become such an

490
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 4: identity for people like you see it. I'm just thinking

491
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 4: of like every time I get sent a link to Instagram, right,

492
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: which is a platform m I don't really participate on,

493
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 4: but I will look at things and they'll be like, oh,

494
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 4: San Diego protest news, San Diego protester, so cow protester,

495
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 4: And like, I think we should resist that being an

496
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 4: identity because we want to build something beautiful as well

497
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 4: as oppose what is bad. And if we don't have

498
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 4: something beautiful to propose, what are we doing out there?

499
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly? And you know there's room for protests. I

500
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 3: don't want to give off the impression that there isn't.

501
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

502
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 3: You know, but for all the lovely talk about peaceful protests,

503
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 3: that works when there's an actual threat backing up those protests.

504
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 3: You know, you don't just do the peaceful protest. You know,

505
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 3: Gandhi didn't single handedly win India's independence by march and peacefully. Yeah,

506
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 3: you know, there has to be something back, and it's

507
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 3: up or else it's going to be very easy to

508
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 3: ignore and suppress. Yeah, And I think that protests should

509
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: not be our default right now. They are our default,

510
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 3: and I think they are better uses of our collective time, energy,

511
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 3: and resources, even though protests are very easy compared to

512
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: some of the things that are more necessary right now.

513
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 3: You know, but if protest is where your dead set

514
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 3: on funneling your energy, I would just say that you

515
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 3: should at least learn de arrest strategies. You know, there

516
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 3: are resources online to get some information on that ond

517
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 3: arrest strategies. You can look it up. But if it's possible,

518
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 3: if you see the situation playing out, you know, trying

519
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 3: not to sit by and let your comrades get pulled away,

520
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 3: you know, it is very possible the numbers on your

521
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 3: side to prevent the police from harassment targets and taking

522
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 3: away people. You know, there's other stuff you can do

523
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: as well, besides protests that I keep alluding to, because

524
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 3: you know, sadly the media is no longer you know,

525
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 3: a safe space to share things and depth in some cases.

526
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 3: But just remember the key is actual disruption. You know,

527
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: the media will not be with you, It'll be trying

528
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: to get my factor consent on everything that you do,

529
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 3: manufacturer consent against any action taken on the things that

530
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 3: you do. And the only way to counteract that is

531
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 3: to maintain relationships on the ground, to maintain actual local solidarity.

532
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,719
Speaker 3: Because once you have those local relationships and that local solidarity,

533
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,959
Speaker 3: there's no amount of things that the media can do

534
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 3: the media could stir up that can prevent the people

535
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: who see that you're on their side, see that you're

536
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: stand up for them, to turn attention right. What problem

537
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 3: happens is when you don't have any relationships, you don't

538
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 3: have any networks, you don't have any community building, You

539
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 3: just doing stuff. The messaging is unclear. You know, That's

540
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 3: where I think the media could really pounce on that.

541
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 3: I would also say, you know, sabotage you know, hit

542
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 3: their pockets. And the main thing, the thing that I've

543
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 3: alluded to earlier, is to strike, you know, to organize

544
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 3: strikes to use the labor power. Workers power still comes

545
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 3: from a participation in production and the threat of withdrawing

546
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: our participation. We have to realize that in this time

547
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 3: we'll live an in even the effectiveness of strikes have

548
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 3: come on the threat in two ways. The first way

549
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 3: is that the permanence of employment is not what it

550
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: used to be. And with the rise and spread of AI,

551
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 3: you know, you have to ask yourself how long will

552
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 3: strike since certain fields be effective anymore. You know, I

553
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 3: have my doubt that EI will ever reach a point

554
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: where it can replace people. But honestly, for a lot

555
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 3: of these companies, they don't necessarily care about whether it's

556
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 3: capable of replacing people or not. They will still try

557
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 3: and use it to replace people. So we have to

558
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 3: be cognizant of the fact that this is the direction

559
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 3: they're pushing things in, and we have to be able

560
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 3: to stand up against that. Before we reach a point

561
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 3: where between AI and you know, the nature of temporary

562
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 3: work of the gig economy, it becomes was harder and

563
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 3: harder to organize ourselves.

564
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

565
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 3: The other thing that I've noticed that has made strikeing

566
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 3: so difficult and that we have to be aware of,

567
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 3: is the pacification of the domestication of unions. Right, there

568
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 3: was a time historically where unions were a powerful, influential,

569
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 3: revolutionary even for us such as not the case today unfortunately. Yeah,

570
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: you know, they have some legislation put in place that

571
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 3: many unions are terrified of crossing. Every I has to

572
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 3: be dotted, every ts to be crossed, and so the

573
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 3: things that would actually make union action the most effective

574
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 3: after the things that unions nowadays will refuse to do,

575
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: sympathy strikes, general strikes, and so, what can we do

576
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: if we are in an industry where the union is

577
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: collaboration with management, with union is utterly reformist to the

578
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: union review U is to actually step up and represent

579
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 3: the people supposed to represent it. And this is where

580
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 3: historically wildcat illegalist strikes have had to come into play.

581
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 3: Strikes that do not depend upon legality, that do not

582
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 3: sit back and wave per mission, that carry far more risk,

583
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 3: of course, that are far more difficult to organize, but

584
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 3: are going to be necessary if we want to liberate

585
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 3: ourselves from this constant capitulation toward the machine. In the

586
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 3: article Striking against the Work War Machine by Jeff Schant

587
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 3: and PJ. Lily, this head quote wartime strikes and sabotage

588
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 3: party because they're illegal and unsanched of nature, bring rank

589
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 3: and file workers together outside of union structures. Workers have

590
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 3: to make crucial decisions work for this strike directly in

591
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 3: face to face meetings or on the picquet lines. Bureaucrats

592
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 3: who are left to their fundamental role of broken with

593
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 3: the bosses can be relegated to the sidelines, and such situations.

594
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 3: In Germany in nineteen seventeen, illegal strikes helped us sweep

595
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: the union structures right out of workplaces. Strikes increasingly took

596
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 3: on an anti union as well as anti boss character,

597
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 3: with wildcats occurring in crowing numbers throughout the Armistice and beyond.

598
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 3: So I wanted to of course pull on this example

599
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 3: because this is not a unique issue. Right Even historically,

600
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 3: where unions have stood against the struggle of workers, against

601
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 3: WAW or against you know, actually defending the class interests,

602
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 3: the rank and file have had to organize themselves accordingly.

603
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 3: So that's also something to keep in mind. And last,

604
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 3: but not least. I just wanted to see to Stroy

605
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 3: briefly on the proposed side of the social revolution equation

606
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 3: when it comes to anti war struggle, and as usual,

607
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 3: this is going to take solidarity materially, not just saying

608
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 3: that we stand in sor diarity with such and such

609
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 3: and such, actually share an aid, share a notes, support

610
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 3: and refugees and going fully there, because this, I think

611
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 3: is where a lot of our energy needs to be

612
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 3: right now. Our efforts to oppose are going to be

613
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 3: for the most part, to us as long as we

614
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 3: don't have an underlying structure that we are building upon

615
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 3: that we are seken to defend and to Expand you know,

616
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 3: we are not at a position right now where we

617
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 3: pose much of a threat yet, and we also have

618
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 3: to consider that merely posing a threat is not going

619
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: to liberate us by itself. So I wanted to consider,

620
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: as we, you know, wrap up this episode, what you

621
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 3: can do to put forward out all seriative to actually

622
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 3: try to create the new social arrangements that we think

623
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 3: should replace capitalist, statist, militarist order. And this is something

624
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 3: that I talk about on my channel, of course, I

625
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 3: talk about building the commons, building alternative media, well sense

626
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 3: of the economy and developing all powers or drives and

627
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 3: our consciousness and so you can check that out if

628
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 3: you'd like. Unfortunately, this is it is happening here and

629
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 3: don't forget. You could check out the YouTube, the picture

630
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 3: on et cetera. All power to all the people.

631
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 6: Peace, Hello everyone, and welcome to it could happen here.

632
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 6: My name is Daniel Kurd. I'm a writer, analyst, and

633
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 6: researcher of Palestinian and air politics. I'm an associate professor

634
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 6: of political science and a senior nonresident Fellow at the

635
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 6: Arab Center Washington. Today we'll be speaking with Charity, the

636
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 6: policy lead for Oxfam. Our discussion will cover oxtam's work

637
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 6: in occupied passing in territories and the current crisis in

638
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 6: a distribution we are recording end of July July twenty seventh,

639
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 6: twenty twenty five. NPR reported in May of this year

640
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 6: that Gaza has already reached Phase four of the Integrated

641
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 6: Food Security phase classification. The IPC just coordinated out of

642
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 6: the UN Food and Agriculture Organization and an organization called

643
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 6: the Famine Early Warning Systems Network.

644
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 7: So what does this all mean?

645
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 6: Phase four means emergency as NPR rights in there may

646
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 6: report hardships deepen, food gaps widen, and people resort to

647
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,919
Speaker 6: really extreme forms of coping. So the Famine Early Warning

648
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 6: Systems Network does not have a presence in Gaza at

649
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 6: the moment. This is their best guess. Phase five is

650
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 6: when they declare a famine. We're seeing very terrible images

651
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 6: in the media and on our phone screens about the

652
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,439
Speaker 6: level of deprivation in Gaza at the moment because aid

653
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 6: has been blocked off by the Israeli government.

654
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 7: Writing for Al Ja Zero just a few.

655
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 6: Days ago, former UN official Munzakhrane accuses the UN of

656
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 6: not declaring famine despite overwhelming evidence, because he says officials

657
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 6: are worried about their careers and possibly worried about antagonizing

658
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 6: the US. But regardless of whether it's Phase four or

659
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 6: Phase five, the situation in Gaza is dire. In July

660
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 6: twenty seventh today, when we're recording, there's reporting that there

661
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 6: might be air drops, that the trucks on the Egyptian

662
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 6: border are moving towards Gaza, after the Israeli government has

663
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 6: received a lot of pressure over the ongoing aid crisis.

664
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 6: But of course that may be too late for many gazas.

665
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 6: As I said, we're speaking with Bush today, who will

666
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 6: talk to us about her work from the vantage point

667
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 6: of ox Jam.

668
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 7: Bush, thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for

669
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 7: having me.

670
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 6: So let's begin with first describing Oxfam's work and occupied

671
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 6: Palsitate territories.

672
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 5: Yeah.

673
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: Sure, we've been here since nineteen fifty six. We have

674
00:39:55,400 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: offices in Ramala and Jerusalem and Gaza and also was

675
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: originally set up as an organization to fight famine, you know,

676
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: the first kind of famines that we've seen globally. That's

677
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: the originally why Alxlam was got to set up. And

678
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: then so a lot of its programming is around water

679
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: and sanitation, food security, lively goods, working with farmers. A

680
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: big part of our program is water and sanitation, helping

681
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: for example, farming communities, providing them with irrigation pipelines. You know,

682
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: it could be agricultural inputs needed for growing their crops.

683
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: It could be technical support to farmers to support them

684
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: and growing, for example, vegetables. How do you grow crops

685
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: of vegetables around date trees? You know, So it's kind

686
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: of that kind of work in terms of the food

687
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: security component of that we have a big part of

688
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: our work is with women's organizations, women's cooperatives, women's farming

689
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:49,720
Speaker 1: cooperatives as well.

690
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 7: Especially in the West Bank.

691
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: And then a lot of a lot of work with

692
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: kind of the relevant ministries and relevant trade unions on

693
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: for example, agricultural insurance, so getting you know, trying to

694
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 1: get insurance for farmers in case their crops or are

695
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: are ruined or sabotaged or damaged for example by settler violence,

696
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: et cetera. So there's kind of like a piloting kind

697
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: of program where we're looking at the potential of providing

698
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: insurance to the farming sector here and palastline. Other things

699
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: could be could look like, you know, small grants to

700
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: start a small kind of business women for example, ceramics,

701
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: women's cooperatives and farming. I mean, so a lot of

702
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 1: it worked like this, and most of our operations are

703
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: actually run through partners. So we have about ninety partners

704
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,280
Speaker 1: kind of across the OFFI fied filesting territory, and about

705
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: eighty to ninety hoard of our operations are actually completely

706
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: implemented through partners. But of course after seventh of October,

707
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: our programming really drastically kind of shifted to fully humanitarian

708
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 1: where you know, we are now basically providing high eigiene kits,

709
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: food parcels, some agricultural inputs as well. Where we could

710
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: you know, set in Gaza, it looks like setting up latrines,

711
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: hand washing, state like mobile stations. It can be like

712
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: water trucking. I mean, it's it's changed, you know, depending

713
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: on the access that we've had. So for example, since

714
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: March this year, we've not been able to enter anything

715
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: because of Israel's full total siege on Gaza, so nothing

716
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: kind of entered. So our operations look like psychosocial support

717
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: to women, young girls and shelters, trucking water from one

718
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: area to another where we've felt like these communities potentially

719
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: needed water or had a little access to water. It

720
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 1: could look it looked like a cash for work. We

721
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: do a big, big, big, big part of our both

722
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 1: now in the West Bank and in Gaza is providing

723
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: cash for work. So for example, we have daily workers

724
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: that will remove solid waste with their bare hands unfortunately

725
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: because there's no materials to remove waste in Gaza. But

726
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: then they would receive like kind of daily daily rates

727
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: in order to get paid and then there's like cash

728
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: vouchers for the most vulnerable, where they can you know,

729
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: have a voucher in a store and they can you know,

730
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: purchase items that we've read for example with the store

731
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: owner to that you know, people can purchase with our

732
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 1: with our kind of cards.

733
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 7: So it's very.

734
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: Versatile, versatile and especially in last years, had to adapt

735
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: and change, you know, very quickly and flexibly depending on

736
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: the situation what's available in the markets.

737
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 7: But that's kind of like what our programming looks like

738
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 7: across the territory.

739
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you for explaining that, and it brings me

740
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 6: to I mean, you touched on it a little bit,

741
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 6: but it brings me to a second question that I

742
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 6: think is important for listeners to to understand is how

743
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 6: has the war in post October seventh really impacted that

744
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 6: the restrictions that the really government is imposing.

745
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 7: So we know there's a stage in Gaza, but also

746
00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 7: in the West Bank.

747
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 6: Absolutely there is so much happening. How has that impacted

748
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 6: Oxygen's work. It's completely restricted.

749
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: US and not just US, it's all of the international

750
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: kind of sector, including UN agencies.

751
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 7: I mean, we know what they did with in Owa.

752
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 7: We'll maybe explain that.

753
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll all, I mean Israel, the Government of Israel's

754
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: kind of attacks or let's say, attacks on the humanitarian

755
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: civic space. It's been a long standing policy of THEIRS

756
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: and started well before seventh of October. It's gotten just

757
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: you know, much tighter, much more restrictive since. But you know,

758
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: this goes back decades. I would say kind of the

759
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 1: most notorious development in shrinking space we call it shrinking

760
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 1: space is twenty twenty one when they declare six organizations

761
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: Palestinian civil society organizations mostly are human rights organizations that

762
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: some of the most notorious and well known human rights

763
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: organization where they're designated as terrorists organizations. So that was

764
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 1: kind of the first big you know where many of

765
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 1: those partners, those six partners were actually partners of international organizations.

766
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: So you know, we found ourselves kind of advocating for

767
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 1: continuing our support to these six despite the designation by Israel.

768
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: Never you know, and there was never, of course evidence

769
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: provided by the Israeli government as to what evidence they had,

770
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: why would they deem these organizations terrorist organizations? But you know,

771
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 1: they continued to operate under very very difficult circumstances. Their

772
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: offices were rated, their assets were confiscated, but you know,

773
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: they're still operational and we're still certainly supporting them. And

774
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: of course, you know shrinking space or the restrictions on

775
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: humanitarian civic space, it translates into, you know, into so

776
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: many different restrictions. It could be you know, restrictions on permits,

777
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: restrictions on what crossings you're able to use as a

778
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: humanitarian you know, whether you can go through that crossing

779
00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: or another.

780
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 7: It can be visa restrictions.

781
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: And we started seeing that these are restrictions even before

782
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 1: the war. And after the war, of course everything kind

783
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: of changed and now we're facing and I'm talking more

784
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: about like legal restrictions in terms of our work, and

785
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: then I can talk more about like the siege and

786
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 1: the actual blockade of humanitarian aid in Ta Gaza, which

787
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: is you know, effectively completely restricted in our operations and

788
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: has dismantled really the humanitarians sector in its entirety and

789
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: has reverberating impacts to the rest of the terrritory. But

790
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: for us, I think the first kind of sign of

791
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: turmoil was when there was already a decision but nothing

792
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: had been kind of formally communicated of a new registration

793
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: process for international organizations that started already in twenty twenty four,

794
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: where the civil Administration announced to our respective organizations that

795
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: there will be a new registration procedures Israeli Simple Administration,

796
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: Israeli Civil Administration. And so it was only kind of

797
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 1: ten months later that the criteria was kind of presented

798
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 1: to us, and only a year later that the criteria

799
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: actually came into effect. But in that time where they

800
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: were announcing these new measures, there were lots of visa denials.

801
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: Permits of course, were completely non existent for humanitarians. So

802
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: for example, you know, I had a permit to Gaza

803
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: for six months, that of course stopped. All of our

804
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: staff in the West Bank had permits to travel both

805
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: to Gaza and in Israel. Those stopped on the seventh

806
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: of October, and say, and vice versa. Are our colleagues

807
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: in Gaza who had permits to come to Israel to

808
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: travel through the Allen b Bridge because of course, you know,

809
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: policies don't have an airport, so they have to travel

810
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: through ALLENB to travel through Ammen.

811
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 7: Those also stopped.

812
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: So that's one other kind of like you know, measure

813
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: that was taken against international organizations. And then when the

814
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: new registered rules were made public and the criteria was

815
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: made public, there was a new there's a new ministry

816
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: set up called the Ministry of Dyspora and something Affairs,

817
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: I know, Dyspora Affairs. I forget the full name of

818
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: the ministry, but it's it's an interministerial committee that you know,

819
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: it's made of basically thucks. You know, if you look

820
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: at the background of some of these people that are

821
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 1: in the committee, I mean, you know, it's and they

822
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: are now deciding of.

823
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 7: The registration of international organizations.

824
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: And the criteria is onerous, it's political, it's big, and

825
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: you know, even even it crosses some of our red

826
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: lines in terms of organization.

827
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 7: I mean, one of one of the I think the most.

828
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: Contentious criteria is submitting staff lists and all of the

829
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: information of our staff to the Israeli authorities, which is

830
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: something we never had to do before. It's not something

831
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: that is actually in any other context, It's not abnormal

832
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: for an authority or country or states to ask, you know,

833
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: who is your staff working for this organization you're seeking

834
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: registration from. But obviously because of the you know, unrecedented

835
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: number of humanitarian workers that have been targeted and indiscriminately

836
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: targeted as well. In Gaza, we've got more than four

837
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: hundred humanitarian workers killed. At this point, we are unable

838
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: to submit our staff lists because of you know, we

839
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 1: have no guarantees of protection. Even though we have guarantees

840
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,720
Speaker 1: under protect you know, international law, this is not applied

841
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: when it comes to Gaza and in Israel's conducts, and

842
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: it's in the hostilities against humanitarian workers in humanity in space.

843
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: So that's one of the criteria. But there's also other

844
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 1: criteria where, for example, we would be revoked our registration

845
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: or not re registered if we are seen to support

846
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: some of the designated organizations that were designated early on,

847
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: which most of our organizations do. So many of us

848
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: are facing about to face basically being deregistered in Israel

849
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: and losing our presence in Jerusalem, which is you know,

850
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,919
Speaker 1: has such a big implications, not because you know, we're

851
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 1: so desperate to have presence in Jerusalem, but because it

852
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: says a lot about what the future of East Jerusalem means.

853
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: Because you're moving aener wha, you're removing the INGOs, and

854
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: you're moving all the program and the support that goes

855
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: to organizations that are operating in Jerusalem, providing legal services

856
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 1: to people that are losing their homes, that are getting

857
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: their homes demolished on a daily basis, legal services for

858
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 1: settler attacks that happen also in East Jerusalem, and school

859
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: provision of school services, educational items, educational activities, summer caps,

860
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,399
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, et cetera, et cetera. The list

861
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 1: goes on that will be removed. And that's kind of

862
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 1: you know, it's working now in parallel with the annexation

863
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: kind of plan that Israel has been threatening and implementing

864
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,439
Speaker 1: at the same time, so you know, everything is moving

865
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 1: towards this annexation. It also has fast implications because many

866
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: of our organizations operate in areas C because the most

867
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: vulnerable communities you know, are in area and so we always,

868
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:03,800
Speaker 1: you know, we as part of our programming is obviously

869
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: reaching the most vulnerable Palestinians and those that need to

870
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 1: help and support the most and so annexing areas CE

871
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: and de registering at the same time de registering us

872
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: from Israel means that we will also have very a

873
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 1: lot of difficulty assing these communities and accessing areas see

874
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: as we mention here in organizations, we've not had visas

875
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: for international staff for since the.

876
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 7: Beginning of the war.

877
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,800
Speaker 1: And then when you look at you know, Gaza, so

878
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 1: this is kind of like looking at the West Bank

879
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: and what is how it's evolving in the West Bank.

880
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: But then you know the fact that we would be deregistered,

881
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: would effectively need that we cannot operate in Gaza. Need

882
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 1: because you have to have an Israeli registration in order

883
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: to be able to bring goods in inside Gaza. And

884
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: so if you're deregistered, you can't bring in goods into Gaza.

885
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 1: This tribulation of the humanitarians civic spaces is all encompassing

886
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: in Gaza. Of course, it looks like our materials have

887
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: been systematically and deliberately denied, rejected, delayed, you know, over

888
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: the course of the last twenty months. But of course,

889
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: adding it's worse since March second, when Israel imposed it's

890
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: total sea jong Gaza and basically has completely sidelined the

891
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: un IGOs and policy in the civil society. And since

892
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: then we've not been able to enter anything in Gaza,

893
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: and I doubt that we will be able to enter

894
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 1: anything moving forward, especially that the registration kind of window

895
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: ends in September. Beginning of September, that's when we'll finally

896
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: know who is going to be registered who's not. But

897
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: I expect for an organization like OXBAM, it's part of

898
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 1: the registration process. It's very vague, so we don't know

899
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: how they will apply it. But there's something about basically

900
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 1: calling again, you know, calling out or speaking out or

901
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:54,879
Speaker 1: calling for accountability of individual soldiers and members.

902
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 7: Of the IDEF. So what that means I don't know.

903
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 1: But we call for accountability every day because it's part

904
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 1: of our mandate or not just an operational organization, where

905
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 1: a rights based organization, and so we have a mandate

906
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,439
Speaker 1: to also you know, where we witness violations of human

907
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: rights or of international law, it is our mandate to

908
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: speak out on it. And so there's no operations without that.

909
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: So that's where we're at right now. It's an incredibly

910
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: difficult space. It is of course deliberate. This is a

911
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: deliberate policy of Israel. That is, you know, it's carried

912
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:27,800
Speaker 1: out against the kind of human humanitarians, civic space for years.

913
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: It's also there's another law, there's a law that's against

914
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: Israel a human rights organization where it will start taxing.

915
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 1: It's really human rights organization that are receiving foreign funding

916
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 1: by fifty to eighty percent or something like that. So

917
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's you know, it's deliberate, it's thematic.

918
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: We have been the only ones in Gaza that have

919
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: been able to actually report independently on what's happening in Gaza,

920
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 1: like the humanitarians happen, not even the journalists, because of course,

921
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: you know, I can argue that, yes, Palestine journalists are independent,

922
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: but you know, the most of the world would probably

923
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 1: disagree with that. So really, I mean the independent kind

924
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: of eyes and the neutral eyes, or let's say part

925
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 1: impartial eyes, I won't say neutral happened the humanitarians and

926
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 1: UN agencies. Sidelining us means that we'll also see a

927
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 1: reduction of quality reporting on what's actually happening in Gaza.

928
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 7: So it's terrifying.

929
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 6: It's an attack on our ability to even understand the

930
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 6: level of the problem. Absolutely that is being left in

931
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 6: the wake of this war, which of course is ongoing.

932
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 6: But also I think it's really important. I mean, the

933
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 6: things you just described, I think it's really important for

934
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 6: listeners to understand this the AID question, the question of

935
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 6: these humanitarian organizations and what's happening to them, whether it's

936
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 6: the registration through the Ministry of Daspreaffairs.

937
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 7: And I think combating anti Semitism is its full name.

938
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 2: That's it.

939
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 7: That's Lacky should have red.

940
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 6: So yeah, I mean there are so many problems with

941
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 6: this ministry and it has been even internally criticized by

942
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 6: by Tel Aviv University for.

943
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: Example, Yeah, or even at see members of the government itself.

944
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: By the way, I think there was a there was

945
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: something about somebody in Israel government not attending the intermn

946
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 1: is Serial Committee meeting, you know, because it was wanting

947
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: to be associated to it.

948
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 7: So yeah, it's a very problematic committee.

949
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 6: But I mean if this kind of committee is responsible

950
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 6: for registering Internet you know, international organizations and humanitarian organizations,

951
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 6: then there's all the blockade of AID. All of these

952
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 6: are parts of the same ethnic cleansing strategy that what

953
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 6: we're seeing in Gaza, whatether you want to call it

954
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 6: ethnic cleansing or genocide.

955
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 7: You know, people are being eradicated.

956
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 6: We're seeing large scale displacements in the West Bank, and

957
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 6: as you mentioned, if these organizations also stop existing in Jerusalem.

958
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 6: We'll see Jerusalem next, not piecemeal the way that we've

959
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 6: been seeing it possible, absolutely, you know, a more aggressive way.

960
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 6: And so I really think it's important to kind of

961
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 6: underscore for listeners that this is part and parcel of

962
00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 6: an annexation and ethnic cleansing plan that people from the

963
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 6: Religious Zionist Party have been saying since the early twenty tens.

964
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 6: Bazilos Motrich, finance minister today had the decisive plan that said,

965
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 6: you know, you either surrender or transfer, and we're at

966
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 6: that level.

967
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 7: They are transferring, they are making sure that that happens,

968
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 7: and they are in the West Bank as well.

969
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's quiet and all eyes aren't Gaza,

970
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: but I mean we've seen displacement of entire communities in

971
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 1: the last few weeks only, let alone the largest numbers

972
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: have forcibly displaced Palestinian since nineteen sixty seven in the

973
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 1: West Bank this year and in the refugee camps that

974
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 1: have been attacked exactly, so you know, and again, I mean,

975
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 1: you know, you can look at the history of smear

976
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 1: campaigns against Ohawa by these really authorities. I mean, that's

977
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: just in itself. You know the services that ohwa provide.

978
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: You know, we have to re emphasize like education, health services,

979
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, shelter, oh no, what provides key

980
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: services that the Pelstine authority is none to respond to?

981
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:03,760
Speaker 1: What is going to happen to all of these people

982
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 1: when you know and already know what So listeners, electricity

983
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: cut off and real love.

984
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 7: This is our lives. Yeah, so we might have to

985
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 7: restart some of that answer, that's fine. Yeah, So did

986
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 7: you want to pick up where you lost up?

987
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 2: I was, yeah.

988
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: I mean the point is is that this is you know,

989
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: a long standing policy by Israel. It's just like very

990
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: much accelerated like every other policy if there is when

991
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: it comes to you know, forcible displacement, collective punishment, you know, detensions.

992
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 1: I mean, everything is at a record high and accelerating

993
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: so quickly with this. You know, right wing, far right

994
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 1: wing government that's you know, has zero checks and balances,

995
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: zero nobody holds them accountable to anything, and so you

996
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 1: know they're able to get away with all of this.

997
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: So I mean, my my sense is that you know,

998
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: very soon you will no longer see kind of the

999
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 1: long standing organizations that have been here for decades that

1000
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: have very much understood the context very well and have

1001
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 1: understood that it's impossible to do the work that we

1002
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 1: do without also bearing witness and speaking out on what

1003
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: we're witnessing. And I think the UN and it's in

1004
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: that way, you know, even the United Nations, where in Pelsline,

1005
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: has made sure that the States committed to that mandate

1006
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: because of how important it is to speak out on

1007
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: what you're seeing around you. I think like that's purely

1008
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: I think, like, you know, we're the only ones that

1009
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 1: are able to witness and record independently what we're seeing

1010
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 1: on a daily day basis. And I think the UN

1011
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: has been incredible in keeping a record of that. I mean,

1012
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 1: I think they started recording in two thousand and eight,

1013
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: so it's like eighteen years now almost of monitoring violations

1014
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: all across the territory. And if it wasn't for the

1015
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 1: work that the UN has done in that, we wouldn't

1016
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: be able to say that there is a genocide being

1017
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: carried out in Gaza, or that the risk of ethnic

1018
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: cleansing has risen exponentially in the West Bank. The reason

1019
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: why we're able to say this is because we're able

1020
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 1: to see the patterns and the data, and you know,

1021
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: you can contest the data. But you know, even you

1022
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 1: were talking about the IPC, the IPC is not even

1023
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 1: reflective of what's really happening, and they say it themselves.

1024
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 1: But you know, of course the media the way the

1025
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: media kind of focuses on what the results because you know,

1026
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: you only have time for sound bites. But if we

1027
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: read the IPC alerts, it's clear that one they're always delayed,

1028
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: so they're always talking about a time that's already passed

1029
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 1: and we're way, we won't beyond that. And two it

1030
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: says that it doesn't have access to Gaza. But look

1031
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 1: at the testimonies, you know, just like just reading the

1032
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: testimonies that some of our organizations have recorded in the

1033
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: last week, just talking about our own colleagues and how

1034
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 1: they're facing starvation themselves. I mean, I think the testimonies

1035
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 1: speak to themselves on what is happening, guys. And I

1036
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 1: don't need the IPC to tell me that there's a

1037
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 1: classification four or five. It's never going to declare famine

1038
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 1: when it's not there, Like, there's never going to be

1039
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: a time where the IPC because that's not even the

1040
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 1: role of the IPC.

1041
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 7: The role of the IPCs not to declare FAM and

1042
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 7: the role the IPC is just.

1043
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 1: To collect the data and publish the data and then

1044
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 1: it's the role of the UN or another international body

1045
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: to do so. So we're not going to see if

1046
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 1: I'm at declaration because we don't have access, and so

1047
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 1: you know, we're not going to be able to say

1048
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 1: that with confidence because the IPC is never going to

1049
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 1: be able to publish that data.

1050
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 7: But I don't think it matters.

1051
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: I think what matters is what we're seeing on the ground,

1052
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: what's being reported, and you know, I mean it's undeniable

1053
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 1: really by the pictures themselves. I mean that the videos

1054
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: and the pictures that are coming out of guys are

1055
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 1: just speak for themselves really. So it's definitely unprecedented times

1056
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: for us, and it's going to be a very very

1057
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 1: interesting and frightening, terrifying here to be frank.

1058
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, No, I mean, as I said at the beginning,

1059
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 6: and there are of course critiques as of the limitations

1060
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 6: of the UN, but this idea that they are wanting

1061
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 6: organizations as a condition of registering them to somehow not

1062
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 6: bear witness to what is happening and not to write

1063
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 6: reports about what's happening. It's a way of hobbling the

1064
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 6: ability of actually creating policies, like if you want to

1065
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 6: talk about famine, or if you want to talk about poverty,

1066
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 6: as OXGM does, how could you solve it without talking

1067
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 6: about the root cause? In every way, in every direction,

1068
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 6: the Israeli government is attempting to hobble the ability of

1069
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 6: international organizations of the Palestinians themselves to be able to

1070
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 6: solve the root causes of these problems. Yeah.

1071
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean it will have to be fine, creative ways,

1072
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 1: just like you know, our Pulstinian Civil Society partners that

1073
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: you have been also designated have had to find, you know,

1074
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 1: ways to continue doing their work. But you know, I

1075
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 1: mean even them, you know, they've lost funding, They've had

1076
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 1: to reduce their operations, They've had to reduce their field

1077
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: officers that go to the field and do this work.

1078
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: So I mean, I I it's it's so uncertain, but

1079
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 1: I think the fact that many of these organizations have

1080
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 1: been here for so long understand so deeply the context.

1081
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 1: I think organizations will also do whatever they can in

1082
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: order to ensure that they continue the important work here

1083
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 1: and find ways to continue to work.

1084
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 7: I don't know how.

1085
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 1: It's really a new time for us, like we've never

1086
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 1: been there before, so we don't know what it looks

1087
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 1: like how we're going to be able to continue our work,

1088
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 1: but we're committed to that, so we will find, you

1089
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: know whatever. I don't want to say loophole because you

1090
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: know there are none, but we'll find whatever way.

1091
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 7: To continue to continue kind of.

1092
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,919
Speaker 1: Being here and being present and remain remaining present because

1093
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: I think it's also part of our commitment to the

1094
01:02:57,640 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 1: work that we've been doing in OPT for decades.

1095
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 7: So yeah, yeah, I.

1096
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 6: Think maybe we should end on a discussion about the

1097
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 6: Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. I mean, I've already mentioned it in

1098
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 6: a previous episode, so I encourage listeners to look into that,

1099
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 6: but I you know, I think it's important we discuss

1100
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 6: what is this foundation and what is the impact has

1101
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 6: had on people in Gaza and on international organizations that

1102
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 6: are already doing this work.

1103
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, the GHF for Gaza Humanity and Foundation slash GHF.

1104
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 1: I don't like talking about it as such because it's

1105
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 1: the issue, of course, is that's one of the issues.

1106
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 7: But GHF is part of many actors, okay, and it's

1107
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 7: not GHF.

1108
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 1: GHF is a facade for many actors that you know,

1109
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 1: the US and Israeli's isn't as really planned. And I

1110
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 1: don't think we need to we cannot, you know, I

1111
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 1: know there's US military actors in GHF at you know,

1112
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 1: the border and shooting at people. But this isn't a

1113
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,800
Speaker 1: really plan, okay, and we have to dub it as such.

1114
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 1: This plan actually came into We started hearing about this

1115
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 1: plan a year and a half ago. It was maybe

1116
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 1: May last year we saw the General Islands plan on

1117
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 1: what they wanted to do in the north when they

1118
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 1: started the ethnic cleansing campaign in the north of Gaza

1119
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: where they besieged the north and tried to force everybody south.

1120
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: The idea then was already they had already were already

1121
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 1: hearing about something called humanitarian bubbles. And the bubbles are

1122
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 1: the sites of what it's what's what's become the sites. Right,

1123
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 1: But this idea of what has been floating around for

1124
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 1: more than eighteen months. It's just that nothing kind of

1125
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 1: transpired until May. I guess that's when May the operation started.

1126
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: So it's really launched. This as an authorization mechanism. This

1127
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,439
Speaker 1: is how it was originally kind of and that would

1128
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 1: expand basically Israeli military control over how aid enters, moves

1129
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 1: within and is distributed inside Gaza. And of course I

1130
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 1: mean that and on its own is a clear attempt

1131
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 1: to instrumentalize humanitarian aid. So you know, and I think

1132
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's very important to clarify. You know,

1133
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: our organizations we operate and there's extremely rigorous standards and

1134
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 1: mechanisms where we're ensure the aid is not diverted. And

1135
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 1: I think a diversion, you know, it's been talked about

1136
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 1: like Hamas eight divers A diversion exists everywhere. Its exists

1137
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 1: in every crisis we work in. Like it's something that

1138
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 1: is part of you know, crisis mode, like this is

1139
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 1: where when there's a crisis, when there's chaos, that's where

1140
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 1: there's space for informal actors to start popping up. So

1141
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 1: it's a symptom of every crisis around the world. And

1142
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: so you know, it's not just a Gaza thing. So

1143
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 1: we have totalcols on how we can ensure that a

1144
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 1: diversion doesn't happen in operations. And of course as humanitarians,

1145
01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 1: we would never accept military or profit driven intermediaries overriding

1146
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 1: what we call principled aid delivery, because it basically means

1147
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 1: that you're expanding military control over aid operations by an

1148
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 1: actual party to the conflict you know, which, of course,

1149
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 1: risks that aid will never reach the most vulnerable you know,

1150
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 1: of course at a time when it was most needed.

1151
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 1: So from our perspective, there is no scenario where we

1152
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 1: would accept any attempts to militarize and privatize humanitarian aid,

1153
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 1: whether it's a GAZO or anywhere else, because such actions

1154
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 1: actually biolate international humanitarian law, but also they undermine the

1155
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 1: core principles of humanitarian law, which are in partiality, independence,

1156
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 1: in humanity. These are principles that guide all of our work.

1157
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 1: And of course, what is the most dangerous about this

1158
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:54,040
Speaker 1: model is not only the massacres that have occurred near

1159
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 1: daily at these food distribution sites run by the GJEP

1160
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 1: and other actors. It's it's set such a dangerous precedent

1161
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 1: where occupying powers around the world will now be able

1162
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 1: to dictate the terms of aid based on their political

1163
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: agendas and their military goals. That is what's effectively now

1164
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 1: happened is that if it's happened in gays of why

1165
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 1: can it not happen in Uganda and d Orski and Sudan?

1166
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:30,680
Speaker 1: And I want to also take it a little back.

1167
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the peer. The peer last year is

1168
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:36,000
Speaker 1: exactly the same.

1169
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 7: It's the same thing. It's an international.

1170
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 1: Company called Fogbow run by former US military veterans and

1171
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 1: soldiers and others, other actors that you know, spent three

1172
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty million dollars on a floating pier that

1173
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:57,280
Speaker 1: brought virtually nothing in and in fact was used for

1174
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: one rescue mission, rescue operation by special forces where they entered.

1175
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 1: I think it was the way that camp the refugee

1176
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 1: camp at the time and were able to obviously, yeah,

1177
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 1: rescue hostages, but kill I mean, you know a dozens

1178
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 1: in that operation using the peer, and hence why we're

1179
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,400
Speaker 1: like we do not we would distance ourselves and from

1180
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:20,679
Speaker 1: the beginning distance ourselves from the peer.

1181
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 7: There's no difference with the distribution sites.

1182
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:27,080
Speaker 1: It's the same kind of idea that with logistics we

1183
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 1: can we can address a political issue. The issue of

1184
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 1: Gaza is not an issue of logistics. Something you enter

1185
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:36,040
Speaker 1: angios don't know how to do the work policies, So

1186
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 1: tell us the use of society has been responding to

1187
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 1: the civilian needs in Gaza from before the war, right,

1188
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, eighty percent of the Gaza population was dependent

1189
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 1: on humanitarian assistance before the war. So, I mean, you know,

1190
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 1: it's not that we didn't know how to do it,

1191
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:54,640
Speaker 1: it's that we were prevented from doing it. We were

1192
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 1: deliberately prevented from doing it. So it's a political decision.

1193
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 1: It's not a logistical decision that prevents us from doing

1194
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 1: our work in Gaza. And so branch thing Israel control

1195
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:08,800
Speaker 1: over who receives the aid, where they received the aid,

1196
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 1: and from who has basically turned what is relief what

1197
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 1: should be relieved to the civilian population is actually a

1198
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:18,320
Speaker 1: tool of coorsion because what we saw is massacres, people

1199
01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:22,639
Speaker 1: being shot indiscriminately at I mean, we heard doctor Nick

1200
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 1: Maynard yesterday. Yesterday he came back from Gaza a week

1201
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 1: ago where we've heard of children being shot in the

1202
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: testicles at these distribution sites, you know, and no one

1203
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 1: he mentioned on the same date he saw half a

1204
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:42,639
Speaker 1: dozen boys with the same injury, sniper shot, sniper shots

1205
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 1: in the testicles at food distribution sites. So what's happened

1206
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 1: now is that what Israel has done is that it

1207
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:53,040
Speaker 1: blurred the line between what humanitarian assistance is, what a

1208
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 1: military objective is, and of course putting the civilian helstine

1209
01:09:56,320 --> 01:09:59,560
Speaker 1: civilians and aid workers as well, because aid workers, we

1210
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:01,800
Speaker 1: know some of our colleagues in different organizations that but

1211
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 1: even themselves I've had to go to these food distribution

1212
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 1: sites because there's nothing and we're unable to even support our.

1213
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 7: Own staff at risk.

1214
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,439
Speaker 1: And of course, I mean this entire system has eroded

1215
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:17,200
Speaker 1: any protections that are guaranteed to aid workers and humanitarian

1216
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:20,440
Speaker 1: responses under international law and under the Geneva Conventions.

1217
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 7: So it's not only that it killed people and that

1218
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 7: it's harmed Palestinians, but.

1219
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:31,639
Speaker 1: It actually it's also a complete disregard for international law,

1220
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 1: complete disregard of international law. And at the same time,

1221
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 1: I think what people failed to remember is that at

1222
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:42,400
Speaker 1: the same time as this plan of the distribution sites

1223
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,560
Speaker 1: was set being set up in the south, at the

1224
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 1: same time Israel every two days was evacuating forcibly displaced,

1225
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 1: saying basically the population towards the south right and in

1226
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 1: less than two months, we've got almost a thousand Palestines

1227
01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 1: that were killed. But also and in that movement of

1228
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:03,679
Speaker 1: the population towards the south, because that's the only place

1229
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:06,760
Speaker 1: that they had food, right, So, you know, this is

1230
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 1: not protection.

1231
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:10,799
Speaker 7: This is complete coercion. You know, when you move aid into.

1232
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 1: Fence, supervise spaces under militaries, really military control. Frankly, and

1233
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:18,800
Speaker 1: what we saw from the pictures recalls some of the

1234
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 1: darkest chapters of humanitarian.

1235
01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:25,919
Speaker 7: Failure of our history. It's not protection, it's coercion.

1236
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:30,680
Speaker 1: And you know, no countries, nobody should ever support a

1237
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:35,000
Speaker 1: model that is basically treating civilians as prisoners. And that's

1238
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 1: not what humanitarian aid is about. Humanitarian responses have to

1239
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:42,040
Speaker 1: be guided by international law. It has to remain voluntary,

1240
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:44,639
Speaker 1: it has to be grounded in the dignity of the people,

1241
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:47,720
Speaker 1: and it has to be delivered impartially not shaped by

1242
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:52,920
Speaker 1: Israel's occupation or israel siege or Israel's military control. So

1243
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:56,760
Speaker 1: not only has this scheme reinforced military control over the

1244
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 1: God's ship, it has completely dehumanized posts by design, like

1245
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,800
Speaker 1: Palasinians are only worth a box of food. That's that's

1246
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 1: what basically essentially What has happened is that we have

1247
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 1: reduced a humanitarian response that addresses hospitals, medical care, water sanitation,

1248
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 1: wastewater shelter. It goes right to dignity, to a box

1249
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:23,360
Speaker 1: of flour. You know that you can get killed getting

1250
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:26,439
Speaker 1: or you get killed. And not only that, it's the

1251
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 1: first come, first serf. You know, it's whoever's the strongest.

1252
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,160
Speaker 1: It's the survival of the fittest. That's not what a

1253
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 1: humanitarian aday is about. We're supposed to meet the most vulnerable.

1254
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:40,640
Speaker 1: We need to reach the pregnant moms, the people with

1255
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 1: di stabilities, the number of record number of amputees in Gaza,

1256
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 1: the record number of disabled people than Gaza right now.

1257
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:47,799
Speaker 5: Children.

1258
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 1: Half of Gaza are children. They are part of some

1259
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:53,479
Speaker 1: of the most vulnerable sections of society. Age should be

1260
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:56,080
Speaker 1: going to them. They don't have They shouldn't have to

1261
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 1: come to us walk for you know, I mean some

1262
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:01,800
Speaker 1: people have said twenty kilometers they've had to walk to

1263
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 1: go to these distribution sides in the middle of the

1264
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:07,879
Speaker 1: night in sand dunes. They have to duck because otherwise

1265
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 1: they might get shot by sniper shot. And then when

1266
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:14,160
Speaker 1: the gates of hell open of these you know, fence zones,

1267
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them. I don't even like

1268
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:19,200
Speaker 1: calling them distribution sites because they're not distribution sizes. It

1269
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:21,560
Speaker 1: implies that there's some sort of like system to it.

1270
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 1: There's no system. It's literally the gates to hell. And

1271
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:29,200
Speaker 1: then everybody flows into the you know, floods, and we've

1272
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:31,840
Speaker 1: heard of people carrying knives to protect themselves because they're

1273
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 1: getting looted because's not enough of course food.

1274
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:37,680
Speaker 6: And then there are gangs that are being weaponized by.

1275
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 8: The stop you know so.

1276
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 1: And actually what I what I was saying to people

1277
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:45,800
Speaker 1: is that actually, what GDHF has created is created the

1278
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:50,320
Speaker 1: perfect it's the perfect recipe for armed gangs and a

1279
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 1: diversion to occur.

1280
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:55,480
Speaker 7: Like it's actually like providing the perfect environment.

1281
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 1: For these informal actors, gangs, criminals to prosper to you know,

1282
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 1: this is you're creating that kind of environment.

1283
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:06,240
Speaker 6: Because let's just be very directed. This is not about

1284
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:09,800
Speaker 6: aid no, of course not no, It's not coercion. It's

1285
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:13,160
Speaker 6: about coercion. I mean, as you mentioned from the very beginning,

1286
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:14,840
Speaker 6: it was about sequestering Palestinians.

1287
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:17,640
Speaker 1: And they said it actually and by the way they

1288
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:21,000
Speaker 1: said it, it's really work. Cabinet has said that, you know,

1289
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 1: and it's like we have to take things that face values.

1290
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 1: Sometimes they said it, they've been seeing it for the

1291
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 1: last year. We just you know, waited until it happened

1292
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:30,640
Speaker 1: on the ground to be able to now say it

1293
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 1: and confirm it. But this was their plan from the beginning,

1294
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 1: and there was nothing implied. It was very explicit, right, no,

1295
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 1: I mean, very very.

1296
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:43,800
Speaker 6: Clear, and it really frustrates me personally because you know,

1297
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:47,600
Speaker 6: Arab media of Palestinian journalists, Palestinians on the ground testimonies

1298
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:51,160
Speaker 6: would would say, we're being arrested at these sites, they're

1299
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 6: using facial recognition, they're very much politicizing AID And it

1300
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,439
Speaker 6: took forever for us to be even be able to

1301
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:02,360
Speaker 6: say it, to be able to even be able to

1302
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:07,360
Speaker 6: report on it, until Western media sources confirmed yesterday a

1303
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:10,639
Speaker 6: number of children were released saw that from being arrested

1304
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:13,320
Speaker 6: at the at these age sites, and I couldn't mention

1305
01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:16,320
Speaker 6: that in things that I wrote because they didn't believe

1306
01:15:16,400 --> 01:15:17,759
Speaker 6: Kalestinian testin I mean.

1307
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 1: The GHF contractor themselves themselves have admitted to what is

1308
01:15:23,080 --> 01:15:25,320
Speaker 1: happening and everything that we've been seeing and saying and

1309
01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 1: you know and warning. I mean, you know, I'd like

1310
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:28,960
Speaker 1: to say as well. I mean, I want to I

1311
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:33,479
Speaker 1: want to underscore actually, humanitarians have been underlining this very

1312
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 1: very explicitly to everybody since before they were even set.

1313
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 1: So you know, I can see for the clear conscience

1314
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:41,880
Speaker 1: that we did what we needed and we could you know,

1315
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:44,640
Speaker 1: what we could do, and we did warn that this

1316
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 1: would happen and this would be the result, and now.

1317
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:52,839
Speaker 6: Here we are right. No, I mean, it's it's absolutely important, Pauline.

1318
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:56,240
Speaker 6: So I want to mention to listeners that I will

1319
01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:58,680
Speaker 6: put in the show notes a lot of you know,

1320
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:01,719
Speaker 6: these citations that you reporting that close to a thousand

1321
01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:05,679
Speaker 6: people have died at these sites. The doctor Nick Maynard,

1322
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:08,960
Speaker 6: speaking to Channel four News in Britain about what he saw.

1323
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:13,080
Speaker 6: I also want to point listeners to a volume that

1324
01:16:13,439 --> 01:16:17,759
Speaker 6: was released called Suppressing Dissent, edited by Zaha Hassan and h. A. Hellier,

1325
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:20,639
Speaker 6: because full disclosure, I do have a chapter in that book,

1326
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:25,320
Speaker 6: but it's about the shrinking civic space prior to October

1327
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 6: seventh and the dynamics that we have we have seen,

1328
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:32,479
Speaker 6: you know, basically playing out at this point. Thank you

1329
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:36,120
Speaker 6: so much, Bushel for coming and speaking with us under

1330
01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 6: such severe circumstances and explaining I think really succinctly the

1331
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:47,040
Speaker 6: dangers of this moment, because what is happening in Gaza

1332
01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:48,360
Speaker 6: will change the world.

1333
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:50,320
Speaker 7: It will change everywhere, and.

1334
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:52,760
Speaker 1: It already is I think, you know, I would tell

1335
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:55,960
Speaker 1: listeners go look at AP's article on fog Bow and

1336
01:16:56,040 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 1: Uganda and Soudan. Remember you're seeing it. It's not even

1337
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 1: that it will change the world. We're already seeing the

1338
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 1: precedent that Gaza has set for other humanitarying crises and

1339
01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:09,680
Speaker 1: for these military actors and private contractors to profit from

1340
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:12,719
Speaker 1: misery like that's that's essentially what is happening.

1341
01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 5: That's happening.

1342
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:15,680
Speaker 1: So you know, I would also direct you to that

1343
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:17,880
Speaker 1: article from AP that came out a couple of weeks

1344
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:21,760
Speaker 1: ago about the same companies operating in Gaza and you know,

1345
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:24,960
Speaker 1: being complicit in the atrocities that we're seeing unfolded Gaza

1346
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 1: now operating in other contexts and prices humanitearing.

1347
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 7: Crises really terrible breaking world.

1348
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know.

1349
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, Well, thank you so much.

1350
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:38,360
Speaker 1: And thanks Dan, thank you, and hopefully see you soon

1351
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:39,040
Speaker 1: and talk to you soon.

1352
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:40,320
Speaker 7: Take care.

1353
01:17:56,800 --> 01:18:00,519
Speaker 4: Hello everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's Media Today,

1354
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:03,439
Speaker 4: and I'm very lucky to be joined by Bryce from

1355
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 4: No More Deaths And what we're going to talk about

1356
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:09,560
Speaker 4: today is this really excellent piece of data visualization and

1357
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:14,040
Speaker 4: research that depicts a very sad topic, which is the

1358
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:17,560
Speaker 4: deaths of migrants entering the United States. And Bryce, I

1359
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:18,800
Speaker 4: know he's done a lot of work on this, So

1360
01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:19,639
Speaker 4: welcome to the show.

1361
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:20,800
Speaker 5: Bryce, thank you.

1362
01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:21,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're welcome.

1363
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 4: I guess maybe we can start off. I'm looking at

1364
01:18:25,479 --> 01:18:28,000
Speaker 4: this data visualization on a map right now, and we'll

1365
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:30,280
Speaker 4: have links in the show notes for other people who

1366
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:34,120
Speaker 4: want to look at it. Can you explain, like what

1367
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:36,439
Speaker 4: this data set is?

1368
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:41,719
Speaker 9: Yeah, So we collected through a bunch of different sources,

1369
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:46,479
Speaker 9: medical examiners, Justices of the Peace, SHERIFFISAL partner CBPS owned data,

1370
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 9: just a bunch of data on individual micrant deaths along

1371
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 9: the US Mexico border. And so this is different data

1372
01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 9: through each source, but generally we tried to get a

1373
01:18:57,360 --> 01:19:00,559
Speaker 9: lot of demographic data, location data, posit death than at

1374
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:03,720
Speaker 9: least some form of the instagram laertive to kind of

1375
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:05,760
Speaker 9: get a little bit of the context on how you

1376
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:06,719
Speaker 9: produce people guide.

1377
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, if people are looking at the map.

1378
01:19:09,160 --> 01:19:12,760
Speaker 4: They can see various colored dots, right, and they can

1379
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:14,960
Speaker 4: click on that dot and that will give them the

1380
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:18,200
Speaker 4: fiscal year the border trail sector. In some cases you'll

1381
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:22,200
Speaker 4: see like the type of death, maybe a gender and age,

1382
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:25,920
Speaker 4: things like that. I know, looking at it, like it's

1383
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:28,679
Speaker 4: one of those things that maybe is more emotionally difficult

1384
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:31,400
Speaker 4: to view if you're more familiar, Like I can look

1385
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:34,400
Speaker 4: at these dots and I can think of places I've been.

1386
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 4: I can even think of that the day I was there,

1387
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:42,599
Speaker 4: and it's quite it's impactful to see that all these

1388
01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:45,360
Speaker 4: people have died in places I know so well. Perhaps

1389
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:49,400
Speaker 4: we can explain, like the scale of this is huge, right,

1390
01:19:49,439 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 4: do you know how many exactly how many data points

1391
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:52,080
Speaker 4: there are on here?

1392
01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:55,519
Speaker 9: I think there's something like solve a thirteen thousand. Yeah,

1393
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:59,479
Speaker 9: it's fast, which overall is like not a great sort

1394
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 9: of liking a cater of how many people have actually

1395
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:05,439
Speaker 9: died or even know how many people could be reported

1396
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:08,120
Speaker 9: to have diet just because the Texas dated all is

1397
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:08,759
Speaker 9: so wonky.

1398
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:13,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's get into that. Then let's talk about maybe

1399
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:17,160
Speaker 4: the sources for this data, and then maybe perhaps how

1400
01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 4: your estimates are much high even with some of the emissions,

1401
01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:25,719
Speaker 4: Like the data that you have tends to show under reporting,

1402
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:28,360
Speaker 4: So like can you explain first, like where does this

1403
01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:31,080
Speaker 4: data come from and how how did you get it?

1404
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:33,599
Speaker 4: You were saying the Texas numbers are lower, but can

1405
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:36,560
Speaker 4: you explain how like there are these multiple jurisdictions and

1406
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:39,240
Speaker 4: how you can't just like ask someone for this information.

1407
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:42,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's your people were able to disask for it.

1408
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:46,559
Speaker 9: Well, generally it all comes from formal public records requests

1409
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:50,679
Speaker 9: from medical examiners. When we're lucky because medical examiners usually

1410
01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:52,599
Speaker 9: have really good, reasonly shapable data.

1411
01:20:53,560 --> 01:20:55,439
Speaker 5: So so we did for San Diego County.

1412
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:56,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're very good.

1413
01:20:56,760 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 9: Pima County are the stated in Mexico, al Paso. Other

1414
01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:03,920
Speaker 9: places have a coroner that are associated with or sheriff department,

1415
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:08,120
Speaker 9: and that's usually a little dice year they're a little more.

1416
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:09,439
Speaker 5: Reluctant to give up records.

1417
01:21:10,040 --> 01:21:14,599
Speaker 9: The Imperial County or Yuma County and then Texas it's

1418
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:19,400
Speaker 9: just like a medical legal nightmare. So there's if smaller

1419
01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:23,160
Speaker 9: counties don't have medical examiners, they just had Justices of the.

1420
01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:25,600
Speaker 5: Peace, which are part of like the courts, and.

1421
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:29,320
Speaker 9: They'll go out and investigate deaths and if an autopsy

1422
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:31,519
Speaker 9: is needed, they'll send it off to another county to

1423
01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:34,040
Speaker 9: get an autopsy. There's a huge amount of counties in

1424
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:37,160
Speaker 9: Texas like this. So that data all came from this researcher,

1425
01:21:37,320 --> 01:21:41,360
Speaker 9: Stephanie Luister from the University of Texas Austin, who is

1426
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:44,400
Speaker 9: working on a different project, but was gracious enough to share.

1427
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:46,040
Speaker 5: Everything that she had collected.

1428
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:48,800
Speaker 9: But that was like just a huge amount of work

1429
01:21:49,240 --> 01:21:52,040
Speaker 9: physically going to each of these counties looking at what

1430
01:21:52,320 --> 01:21:56,000
Speaker 9: vapor records from justices of the peace, writing down all

1431
01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:59,799
Speaker 9: that data. There's some that comes from like Sheriff's department,

1432
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:04,439
Speaker 9: some that comes from various other sources, so the Texas

1433
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:08,200
Speaker 9: data and some for example, Wegg County Medical Examiner. They

1434
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:12,080
Speaker 9: don't give up their data to anybody, and there's a

1435
01:22:12,160 --> 01:22:15,240
Speaker 9: lot of issues with them potentially like not having actually

1436
01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:17,439
Speaker 9: performed autopsy on a lot of autopsies on a lot

1437
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:21,560
Speaker 9: of migrants, and there's some potential bookcases about that going on.

1438
01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:22,800
Speaker 5: But yeah, so.

1439
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:26,240
Speaker 9: Texas is really messing and a lot of it you'll notice,

1440
01:22:26,320 --> 01:22:27,080
Speaker 9: like Texas has.

1441
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 5: A lot of the purple dots.

1442
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:33,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, the purple dots on their location data from Border

1443
01:22:33,160 --> 01:22:34,080
Speaker 9: Patrols database.

1444
01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:36,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and so that ends in twenty eighteen.

1445
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:39,479
Speaker 9: So we have data possible needs in border patrol over

1446
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:42,479
Speaker 9: not location data. Yeah, and so a lot of Texas

1447
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:46,639
Speaker 9: on that being that's just the Border patrol data unless

1448
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:51,599
Speaker 9: we have love specific access to that place. Is Justice

1449
01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:54,360
Speaker 9: to the Pace data. It's so the Texas data is

1450
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:56,479
Speaker 9: pretty limited for about reason.

1451
01:22:57,040 --> 01:23:00,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can see a sort of very few red dogs,

1452
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:04,479
Speaker 4: which which are your your other data sources like in

1453
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:07,120
Speaker 4: Texas aside from it, So maybe Brooks County you're able

1454
01:23:07,160 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 4: to get Justice to the Peace data there because yeah,

1455
01:23:09,439 --> 01:23:11,560
Speaker 4: the density is profound.

1456
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:15,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's just the So it's the Brooks County Checks

1457
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:18,360
Speaker 9: Department that actually puts together that data, and they're really

1458
01:23:18,560 --> 01:23:22,160
Speaker 9: keen on the whole thing. Okay, And partially it's because

1459
01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:25,040
Speaker 9: the data exists, but partially it really wills just to

1460
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:28,599
Speaker 9: reach fluster death in that area because of a checkpoint

1461
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:31,559
Speaker 9: south of there where people will get dropped off south

1462
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:35,120
Speaker 9: of the checkpoint pipe around and it's just like massive,

1463
01:23:36,240 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 9: massive open grade yard in Brooks County.

1464
01:23:39,320 --> 01:23:41,800
Speaker 4: Jeez. Yeah, I don't think I spent much time in

1465
01:23:41,920 --> 01:23:44,240
Speaker 4: that part of Texas, but certainly, like some of these

1466
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:47,439
Speaker 4: other ones that I'm much more familiar with. Let's talk

1467
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:51,760
Speaker 4: about the CBP data, right, you mentioned it there. One

1468
01:23:51,800 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 4: of the things you've found was that CBP has a

1469
01:23:55,439 --> 01:24:00,439
Speaker 4: systemic issue with undercounting deaths, right, yeah, So where does

1470
01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 4: that come from?

1471
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:05,479
Speaker 9: So I've heard from I guess for years Humane Borders

1472
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:08,960
Speaker 9: and Pema County Medical Examiner has been documenting this since

1473
01:24:09,080 --> 01:24:12,840
Speaker 9: at least twenty fourteen. The major undercount on Border patrols data.

1474
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:15,200
Speaker 9: But something I've here a lot is just that it's

1475
01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 9: cases where border patrol wasn't personally involved in the search,

1476
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:21,439
Speaker 9: and that they had changed their counting system to only

1477
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:23,280
Speaker 9: be counting in cases where they were involved.

1478
01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:26,240
Speaker 5: And I think that may account for some of it.

1479
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:30,439
Speaker 9: But in order to compare these deaths, border patrols data

1480
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:35,559
Speaker 9: is just really gnarly and messy, and that there's typos,

1481
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:39,360
Speaker 9: there's no spelling. States are wrong, ages are wrong, genders

1482
01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:42,360
Speaker 9: are wrong. So you really, in order to compare them,

1483
01:24:42,400 --> 01:24:45,080
Speaker 9: you really have to go person by person, go down

1484
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 9: the list, find the death and in order patrol database,

1485
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:50,840
Speaker 9: look at the Medical Examiner data on time to matches

1486
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:53,920
Speaker 9: person by person. So because we have so much of

1487
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:57,439
Speaker 9: the incident narratives from the medical examiners. We can actually

1488
01:24:57,479 --> 01:24:59,920
Speaker 9: tell when Border patrol was involved, and so we mark

1489
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:03,160
Speaker 9: when border patrols involved when they're not involved, and then

1490
01:25:03,280 --> 01:25:06,519
Speaker 9: when that case doesn't actually get counted by Border patrol, okay,

1491
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 9: and it doesn't actually really line up.

1492
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:10,880
Speaker 5: There's not a huge correlation there.

1493
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:14,080
Speaker 9: I mean, there is some correlation, like older skeletal remains

1494
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:17,080
Speaker 9: things like that often won't get counted, but generally there

1495
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:19,120
Speaker 9: are a lot of cases where they directly involved, where

1496
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:22,240
Speaker 9: even they were the first responders on the scene to

1497
01:25:22,320 --> 01:25:26,240
Speaker 9: a distress call or any number of things, where that

1498
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:28,960
Speaker 9: person will end up in Vorda Patrol's database. And then

1499
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:31,000
Speaker 9: other cases where it seems like they had no involvement,

1500
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:34,160
Speaker 9: that person ends up being in Vortical Patrol's database. So,

1501
01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:37,120
Speaker 9: I mean, they've been in trouble with the GAO multiple

1502
01:25:37,200 --> 01:25:41,599
Speaker 9: times for undercounting or improperly counting or recording these debts,

1503
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:45,559
Speaker 9: and so they have access to medical examiner data. Medical

1504
01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:48,560
Speaker 9: examiners send them the data, they just don't use it.

1505
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:52,720
Speaker 9: We often also noticed that the causes that get really

1506
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:55,559
Speaker 9: don't match up in a lot of really specific cases

1507
01:25:55,760 --> 01:25:59,240
Speaker 9: like yeah, for Walfalls, for instance, was the most notable

1508
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:03,160
Speaker 9: one see a huge amount of cases that medical examiner

1509
01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:07,200
Speaker 9: will say one force trauma, and then border Patrols data

1510
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:12,040
Speaker 9: will say medical examiner and detainment or exposure or any

1511
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:14,679
Speaker 9: number of other things which like for the most part,

1512
01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:17,120
Speaker 9: causes the death seem to line up. So the fact

1513
01:26:17,200 --> 01:26:20,040
Speaker 9: that these Waalfall deaths it happens to not line up

1514
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 9: is like, you know, I don't want to assume they

1515
01:26:23,479 --> 01:26:26,519
Speaker 9: have that intent, although obviously Bordemtrol is bad intent, but

1516
01:26:27,640 --> 01:26:30,519
Speaker 9: it seems like it happens regularly enough that it's hard

1517
01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 9: to feel like it's not at is somewhat intentional that

1518
01:26:33,560 --> 01:26:36,120
Speaker 9: the cases that they're kind of choosing to change the

1519
01:26:36,160 --> 01:26:36,960
Speaker 9: couses of death.

1520
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:40,600
Speaker 4: For right, so let's get obfuscates the lethality of the

1521
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:42,920
Speaker 4: border war, right length, it's the amount of people who

1522
01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:43,439
Speaker 4: it kills.

1523
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:45,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean to a huge degree too.

1524
01:26:45,400 --> 01:26:47,720
Speaker 9: I mean the fact that Bordertrol's data is kind of

1525
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:50,680
Speaker 9: our only source of data for micrant deaths and then

1526
01:26:50,720 --> 01:26:54,000
Speaker 9: specifically for deaths caused by border patrol or like Walfall deaths,

1527
01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:57,120
Speaker 9: means that the amount of death that we need the

1528
01:26:57,160 --> 01:27:00,439
Speaker 9: public has access to, like Walhall deaths for instance, is

1529
01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:02,920
Speaker 9: just a drop in the bucket compared to what's actually happening.

1530
01:27:03,040 --> 01:27:05,280
Speaker 9: So all of the research and reporting and all the

1531
01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:08,559
Speaker 9: stuff that happens around these CNC related deaths is drawing

1532
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:11,120
Speaker 9: off just like truly false numbers.

1533
01:27:12,040 --> 01:27:16,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and that leads to people drawing bad conclusions.

1534
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:16,840
Speaker 8: Right.

1535
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:31,640
Speaker 4: The other thing that you found is that like that,

1536
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:35,000
Speaker 4: there seems to be an underreporting of in custody deaths, right,

1537
01:27:35,160 --> 01:27:38,800
Speaker 4: or an undercounting of people who die in custody. So

1538
01:27:38,880 --> 01:27:40,880
Speaker 4: can you explain how you were able to ascertain that

1539
01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:44,639
Speaker 4: difference between the in custody death recorded by the Office

1540
01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:47,760
Speaker 4: of Professional Responsibility. That's just the ones that you found, right.

1541
01:27:48,040 --> 01:27:52,160
Speaker 9: Right, So the opposite Professional Responsibility is all part of CBP,

1542
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:57,040
Speaker 9: and they're supposed to be recording all the saw CBP

1543
01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:01,479
Speaker 9: related deaths, including according to the Deaths and Custody Reporting

1544
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:03,880
Speaker 9: Act to like twenty thirteen or whatever it was, army

1545
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:06,560
Speaker 9: destin plustody. There's a really specific definition of what in

1546
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:11,120
Speaker 9: custody means, and so we tried to follow pretty strictly

1547
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:14,120
Speaker 9: what that definition was to kind of make our own

1548
01:28:14,439 --> 01:28:16,960
Speaker 9: assessments using the incident narratives.

1549
01:28:17,240 --> 01:28:20,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm curious, what does it mean, like I'm thinking

1550
01:28:20,439 --> 01:28:23,679
Speaker 4: about door detention, right, Like, does that count as in custody?

1551
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:26,479
Speaker 9: Yeah? So any only time if a person is in

1552
01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 9: the process of being apprehended, if the person has been apprehended,

1553
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:32,120
Speaker 9: if a person has been detained, if the person is

1554
01:28:32,320 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 9: physically in custody, bordertrol, in a bordertrol vehicle, in a

1555
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:39,719
Speaker 9: cup facility, all those things, who would count as in custody. Okay,

1556
01:28:40,040 --> 01:28:42,880
Speaker 9: it's just important because at least one of the cases,

1557
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:46,200
Speaker 9: the border patrol agent involved said the person wasn't in custody,

1558
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:49,519
Speaker 9: he was just detained, which for the purposes of reporting,

1559
01:28:49,560 --> 01:28:52,479
Speaker 9: there's actually no difference, right, Yeah, but he said that

1560
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:55,599
Speaker 9: clearly to not have it be labeled as in custody

1561
01:28:55,680 --> 01:28:58,519
Speaker 9: death right, and what it seems like that ended up

1562
01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:01,280
Speaker 9: not being very able to deserve custody death. So it's

1563
01:29:01,360 --> 01:29:04,519
Speaker 9: definitely I think they're they're aware the fact that these

1564
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:06,680
Speaker 9: are being equalted and kind of frown not to have.

1565
01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 4: That due to case they have too many of them,

1566
01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:12,720
Speaker 4: like uppere Another interesting data interesting is your own word,

1567
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:16,000
Speaker 4: but another data point here was the amount of death

1568
01:29:16,160 --> 01:29:20,040
Speaker 4: caused by pursuit, right or in pursuit I guess maybe

1569
01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:23,639
Speaker 4: you should just explain, like what pursuit is to people

1570
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:24,400
Speaker 4: if they're not aware.

1571
01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:28,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, so there's two kinds of pursuit. We listen at

1572
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:31,639
Speaker 9: the same gear on their database. You can see the difference.

1573
01:29:32,120 --> 01:29:36,640
Speaker 9: There's chases on motor vehicle and there's chases on foot. So,

1574
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:41,000
Speaker 9: for example, a person's getting chase through the desert and

1575
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:44,920
Speaker 9: collapses and dies be considered a death either pursuit or EF.

1576
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:48,160
Speaker 9: A person is like in al Paso or San Diego

1577
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:52,880
Speaker 9: or Imperial County more is chased, ends up going in

1578
01:29:52,960 --> 01:29:56,160
Speaker 9: a canal or jumping into a canal to escape and

1579
01:29:56,320 --> 01:30:00,439
Speaker 9: drowns the idea or chase on foot, and then motor

1580
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:04,240
Speaker 9: vehicle pursuits are Yeah, the person is being chased by

1581
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:06,760
Speaker 9: Border patrol and the glowing passions and people are chilled.

1582
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1583
01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:10,920
Speaker 9: Use of force cases also include some of these chases

1584
01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:16,280
Speaker 9: through OPR standards and CVP standards. If spike strips are deployed,

1585
01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:19,439
Speaker 9: or if a vehicle is ran by a Border Patrol vehicle,

1586
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:22,920
Speaker 9: that's considered use of force. So that's where a person

1587
01:30:23,080 --> 01:30:25,479
Speaker 9: died due to that, we would call that a use

1588
01:30:25,479 --> 01:30:27,960
Speaker 9: of force staff. Yeah, so I guess those are the

1589
01:30:28,240 --> 01:30:31,320
Speaker 9: two to three different times perceived. That's a great doo.

1590
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:34,120
Speaker 4: And so like, yeah, those are as you say, they're

1591
01:30:34,120 --> 01:30:37,840
Speaker 4: broken down the database, right, but in the spreadsheet they

1592
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:39,000
Speaker 4: are combined.

1593
01:30:40,479 --> 01:30:42,120
Speaker 8: What does this data show.

1594
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:45,360
Speaker 4: Us about, Like, I guess if we look at the

1595
01:30:45,479 --> 01:30:48,800
Speaker 4: last half decade or so, let's go back to like

1596
01:30:48,920 --> 01:30:52,800
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, right, border policy, Like, what does it show

1597
01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 4: us about like title eight, Title forty two. We're like

1598
01:30:57,080 --> 01:31:00,479
Speaker 4: a little too too close to the Biden assylum band

1599
01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:04,200
Speaker 4: to have I guess, like good data on that yet.

1600
01:31:04,720 --> 01:31:07,479
Speaker 4: But do you see a clear pattern in like the

1601
01:31:08,560 --> 01:31:13,439
Speaker 4: border rhetoric and border quote unquote enforcement and the amount

1602
01:31:13,479 --> 01:31:14,760
Speaker 4: of death or the type of death?

1603
01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:20,479
Speaker 9: Oh, definitely, Yeah, It's it's immediately clear. I mean even

1604
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:23,799
Speaker 9: Biden's asylum ban, I think there is an immediate effect.

1605
01:31:23,840 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 9: I mean even just with as a normal desk volunteer,

1606
01:31:26,520 --> 01:31:30,240
Speaker 9: we started seeing people crossing the border, crossing the desert

1607
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:33,080
Speaker 9: that just never would have yet made the attempt previously,

1608
01:31:33,479 --> 01:31:35,320
Speaker 9: you know, and then started to see as people reported

1609
01:31:35,400 --> 01:31:36,160
Speaker 9: the death data too.

1610
01:31:36,360 --> 01:31:39,599
Speaker 5: So I think all of that is pretty clear.

1611
01:31:40,520 --> 01:31:45,720
Speaker 9: So with Trump's restrictions on asylum, I think the biggest thing,

1612
01:31:45,800 --> 01:31:49,360
Speaker 9: honestly was all the metering policies rather than just Tiital

1613
01:31:49,439 --> 01:31:52,040
Speaker 9: forty two or like protection protocols or any of that.

1614
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:54,800
Speaker 9: It was just the facts that people weren't allowed to

1615
01:31:54,840 --> 01:31:57,640
Speaker 9: access the border country. Yeah, I ended up kind of

1616
01:31:57,680 --> 01:32:00,680
Speaker 9: like going around to enter like other places in the

1617
01:32:00,720 --> 01:32:02,439
Speaker 9: desert border sort of picked them up.

1618
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:04,040
Speaker 5: That all this started happening.

1619
01:32:04,280 --> 01:32:07,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, and so it's kind of like a trickle in

1620
01:32:07,320 --> 01:32:10,040
Speaker 9: twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, a little bit more in twenty

1621
01:32:10,080 --> 01:32:12,800
Speaker 9: twenty one, and then twenty twenty two you suddenly seen

1622
01:32:12,920 --> 01:32:16,479
Speaker 9: just huge amounts of people from countries other than Mexico

1623
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:19,639
Speaker 9: and Central America starting to show up in the data.

1624
01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:23,400
Speaker 9: And then also like people who clearly were trying to

1625
01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:27,360
Speaker 9: seep asylum showing up in this gap data all the

1626
01:32:27,400 --> 01:32:30,880
Speaker 9: way up until it slowed down after you know, the

1627
01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:35,160
Speaker 9: end of twenty twenty three, and then but definitely continue

1628
01:32:35,240 --> 01:32:37,599
Speaker 9: through through full time of four. Yeah.

1629
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:40,960
Speaker 4: Definitely, Like I speaking from my own experience on the

1630
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,840
Speaker 4: border here, we saw the same thing, right, like people

1631
01:32:43,920 --> 01:32:48,080
Speaker 4: crossing you wouldn't have seen making that crossing in places

1632
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:52,200
Speaker 4: and times that they wouldn't have crossed, you know, before

1633
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:55,680
Speaker 4: the Biden asylum ban, and like that definitely resulted in

1634
01:32:56,000 --> 01:32:59,040
Speaker 4: I mean, there was a weekend September where I think

1635
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:03,320
Speaker 4: five people died. September twenty twenty four, we had a

1636
01:33:03,400 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 4: heat wave and like it immediately resulted in multiple fatalities

1637
01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:11,639
Speaker 4: that like wouldn't have been the case previously. I wonder,

1638
01:33:11,800 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 4: like what does this data set in terms of like recommendations,

1639
01:33:17,120 --> 01:33:19,720
Speaker 4: right in terms of like how we can use this

1640
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:22,000
Speaker 4: data set? Obviously, we're at a time when I when

1641
01:33:22,040 --> 01:33:25,040
Speaker 4: I guess the Trump administration like had its complete asylum

1642
01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:28,840
Speaker 4: band stayed, but we're back at like people can't in

1643
01:33:28,960 --> 01:33:30,800
Speaker 4: good faith like turn up to a port of entry

1644
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:32,360
Speaker 4: anymore and just be like, Hey, I'd like to claim

1645
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:34,920
Speaker 4: asylum and really really hope for the best. Like what

1646
01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:37,080
Speaker 4: does this data set tell us in terms of like

1647
01:33:37,600 --> 01:33:40,240
Speaker 4: what policies kill more people? And like I guess, like

1648
01:33:40,360 --> 01:33:43,439
Speaker 4: like what recommendations arise from the data in terms obviously,

1649
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:46,559
Speaker 4: I guess bit of the recommendation is to have laws

1650
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:49,160
Speaker 4: that allow people to fucking enter this country and claim

1651
01:33:49,160 --> 01:33:52,320
Speaker 4: asylum without walking across the desert. But that seems like

1652
01:33:52,360 --> 01:33:53,960
Speaker 4: it's too much to ask, So like what do we

1653
01:33:54,120 --> 01:33:57,240
Speaker 4: learn in terms of like specific policies that are particularly

1654
01:33:57,360 --> 01:34:02,120
Speaker 4: fatal and like the way is that that could be

1655
01:34:02,280 --> 01:34:06,400
Speaker 4: mitigated and if it's not already by like water drops

1656
01:34:06,439 --> 01:34:06,800
Speaker 4: and search.

1657
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:11,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's a hard question, just because talking to the

1658
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:14,479
Speaker 9: older people and the more deaths who've been around since

1659
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:18,080
Speaker 9: like kind of the early years of prevention to the terrence, Yeah,

1660
01:34:18,280 --> 01:34:20,599
Speaker 9: they talked about sort of feeling like you know, when

1661
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:22,479
Speaker 9: they were first out there, being like, man, this is

1662
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:25,439
Speaker 9: really unsustainable. It came out here all the time like

1663
01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:27,960
Speaker 9: this maybe like a few more years we could probably

1664
01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:31,040
Speaker 9: handle and then hopefully this prevention through de terrence thing

1665
01:34:31,120 --> 01:34:33,040
Speaker 9: will have like kind of stopped. They'll see like this

1666
01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:35,920
Speaker 9: is unsustainable, and then here we are all these years

1667
01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:38,479
Speaker 9: later and it's worse than it's at again. Yeah, and

1668
01:34:39,040 --> 01:34:41,560
Speaker 9: the original prevention to de terance policy is like this

1669
01:34:41,720 --> 01:34:44,880
Speaker 9: strategy of essentially killing people in the hopes, I know,

1670
01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:47,080
Speaker 9: people will stop trying to cross the border or something,

1671
01:34:47,320 --> 01:34:50,120
Speaker 9: and kind of just is the original thing that it's

1672
01:34:50,200 --> 01:34:51,240
Speaker 9: really hard to get away from.

1673
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:55,240
Speaker 5: And yeah, the fact that right now applying the same.

1674
01:34:55,920 --> 01:35:00,920
Speaker 9: Strategy of death and suffering to asylum seekers is really horrifying.

1675
01:35:01,240 --> 01:35:04,719
Speaker 5: So I think yeah, Number one, open up ports.

1676
01:35:04,520 --> 01:35:07,360
Speaker 9: Eventually to allow asylum secret to seek asylum, bring back

1677
01:35:07,520 --> 01:35:10,240
Speaker 9: like even the sort of minimum asylum projections that we

1678
01:35:10,360 --> 01:35:13,720
Speaker 9: had back then. Other things like how people are dying

1679
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:14,400
Speaker 9: really matters.

1680
01:35:14,880 --> 01:35:15,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1681
01:35:15,280 --> 01:35:19,360
Speaker 9: So for example, in the Olpasto sector, there was very

1682
01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:22,160
Speaker 9: very few deaths in twenty fourteen. The last couple of years,

1683
01:35:22,200 --> 01:35:25,759
Speaker 9: it's been the deadliest single small area in the entire border.

1684
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:29,000
Speaker 9: And a lot of that was just because the border

1685
01:35:29,040 --> 01:35:31,519
Speaker 9: has just become so militarized that even this like urban

1686
01:35:31,600 --> 01:35:35,479
Speaker 9: area where you know, people are dying a mile from town,

1687
01:35:35,600 --> 01:35:37,960
Speaker 9: people are dying in town. We I was part of

1688
01:35:38,040 --> 01:35:41,000
Speaker 9: the recovery where we this person was on a road,

1689
01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:44,320
Speaker 9: had been there for about three days dead. It was

1690
01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:48,120
Speaker 9: about forty feet from the busiest the busiest road in

1691
01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:52,280
Speaker 9: the entire town. Yeah, and that's just not something that

1692
01:35:52,479 --> 01:35:56,120
Speaker 9: really fits in with the ordinary narrative like Prevenual to

1693
01:35:56,160 --> 01:35:58,519
Speaker 9: de Terrance, people getting pushed out to these more remote areas,

1694
01:35:59,080 --> 01:36:02,120
Speaker 9: and I think just a level of militarization is just

1695
01:36:02,240 --> 01:36:04,679
Speaker 9: up to the level that it really is just deadly

1696
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:06,640
Speaker 9: kind of. I mean even yea, all these deaths in

1697
01:36:06,800 --> 01:36:10,479
Speaker 9: San Diego, as you know, also do so like all

1698
01:36:10,560 --> 01:36:13,639
Speaker 9: these Walfall deaths are pretty much all since like twenty seventeen,

1699
01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:16,560
Speaker 9: we're even more recently so the construction of all this

1700
01:36:16,680 --> 01:36:19,000
Speaker 9: new border wall. You can point very directly to a

1701
01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:19,800
Speaker 9: huge amount.

1702
01:36:19,520 --> 01:36:21,400
Speaker 5: Of deaths just caused by walfalls.

1703
01:36:21,680 --> 01:36:27,400
Speaker 9: There's the canals in Imperial County and al Paso that

1704
01:36:27,840 --> 01:36:30,559
Speaker 9: there a huge amount of people. There's Alpasa right now

1705
01:36:30,680 --> 01:36:32,840
Speaker 9: is in the process of revamping their whole canal system.

1706
01:36:33,200 --> 01:36:34,120
Speaker 5: Would be a great.

1707
01:36:33,920 --> 01:36:37,120
Speaker 9: Opportunity to add some sort of like safety systems in

1708
01:36:37,160 --> 01:36:40,599
Speaker 9: place so that people don't die. Yeah, it is all

1709
01:36:40,680 --> 01:36:42,840
Speaker 9: the pursue deaths which now are not just being caused

1710
01:36:42,880 --> 01:36:46,040
Speaker 9: the border patrol, but also like the Texas Department of

1711
01:36:46,040 --> 01:36:49,760
Speaker 9: Public Public Safety now that Operation Lone Star has helped up.

1712
01:36:50,240 --> 01:36:52,880
Speaker 9: There's all these things where the kinds of deaths and

1713
01:36:53,520 --> 01:36:56,680
Speaker 9: the kinds of people dying and all that stuff has

1714
01:36:56,960 --> 01:37:00,719
Speaker 9: changed and increased really drastically in the last few years.

1715
01:37:00,840 --> 01:37:02,720
Speaker 5: And you can kind of point to a lot of them.

1716
01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:05,519
Speaker 9: But also it's like, yeah, I don't know, it's hard

1717
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:09,000
Speaker 9: to really have any smart thoughts on it. Besides, just

1718
01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:11,439
Speaker 9: like boor control is underformable and.

1719
01:37:11,560 --> 01:37:14,880
Speaker 4: Just needs to be disbanded entire Yeah, and like this

1720
01:37:15,080 --> 01:37:17,920
Speaker 4: whole border regime, right, the whole idea of like an

1721
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:22,519
Speaker 4: iron border that we enforce in a physical space. The

1722
01:37:22,680 --> 01:37:25,360
Speaker 4: point of it is to kill people, Like, the point

1723
01:37:25,400 --> 01:37:30,040
Speaker 4: of it is to hurt people by having perfectly innocent

1724
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:32,200
Speaker 4: people who you'd be happy to have with your neighbor

1725
01:37:32,360 --> 01:37:35,120
Speaker 4: die in the desert. Like that's that is, that is

1726
01:37:35,200 --> 01:37:37,840
Speaker 4: the policy goal. Like I'm just looking, like I'm looking

1727
01:37:37,840 --> 01:37:40,360
Speaker 4: at Pinto Canyon, which San Diego people will know it is,

1728
01:37:40,439 --> 01:37:42,519
Speaker 4: Like it's pretty like, don't if you're listening to this,

1729
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:45,280
Speaker 4: don't go to Pinto Canyon. You might die. It's not

1730
01:37:45,320 --> 01:37:47,720
Speaker 4: a place to just go looking around if you're not

1731
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:50,960
Speaker 4: experienced traveling out in the desert. But like, even Pinto

1732
01:37:51,040 --> 01:37:54,559
Speaker 4: Canyon is Gnali. But looking along the wall, the wall

1733
01:37:54,640 --> 01:37:58,920
Speaker 4: kills way more people than this rugged and difficult piece

1734
01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:00,960
Speaker 4: of terrain in the middle of now. Well, it's it's

1735
01:38:01,840 --> 01:38:03,960
Speaker 4: things that we have paid a lot of money for

1736
01:38:04,160 --> 01:38:07,160
Speaker 4: that kill the most people. And that's pretty brutal to confront.

1737
01:38:18,439 --> 01:38:22,880
Speaker 4: One of the other things that you guys were able

1738
01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:25,719
Speaker 4: to determine was that like a number of United States

1739
01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:29,479
Speaker 4: residents had died right in this data set.

1740
01:38:29,640 --> 01:38:31,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, can you explain that for people?

1741
01:38:32,280 --> 01:38:32,639
Speaker 5: Totally?

1742
01:38:32,760 --> 01:38:32,800
Speaker 10: So?

1743
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:35,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like you said, there's people you'd love to have

1744
01:38:35,400 --> 01:38:38,360
Speaker 9: as your neighbor dying in all these places, and not

1745
01:38:38,560 --> 01:38:41,160
Speaker 9: just that, but your actual neighbor. The amount of people

1746
01:38:42,120 --> 01:38:45,599
Speaker 9: whose main residence listed was just in San Diego County,

1747
01:38:45,720 --> 01:38:51,400
Speaker 9: in Oceanside, in Bakersfield and Indianapolis, places.

1748
01:38:51,040 --> 01:38:51,880
Speaker 5: That we've all been to.

1749
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:55,519
Speaker 9: Yeah, we were able to record for San Diego County

1750
01:38:55,800 --> 01:38:58,920
Speaker 9: and a few other counties a lot of where people

1751
01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:03,360
Speaker 9: actually lived in some of the circumstances for why they

1752
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,640
Speaker 9: were crossing through the desert in the first place. A

1753
01:39:05,720 --> 01:39:08,280
Speaker 9: lot of it is people who are very recently deported,

1754
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:11,400
Speaker 9: or who just traveled to Mexico because they had to

1755
01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:14,680
Speaker 9: get some paperwork done or wanted to visit family or

1756
01:39:14,760 --> 01:39:17,559
Speaker 9: things like this. Just had entire lives in the United

1757
01:39:17,600 --> 01:39:20,400
Speaker 9: States and then and then passed away on the way

1758
01:39:20,439 --> 01:39:24,400
Speaker 9: back ends of the country. Yeah, including I mean, it's

1759
01:39:24,479 --> 01:39:26,760
Speaker 9: really heartbreaking to even see. There's there's a lot of

1760
01:39:26,840 --> 01:39:30,519
Speaker 9: cases where the person who actually finds the body or

1761
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:34,000
Speaker 9: recovers the body is not person's family members or their

1762
01:39:34,240 --> 01:39:39,560
Speaker 9: spouse or their children, even which only happens because you know,

1763
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:43,120
Speaker 9: Board of Control is generally not that interested in recovering

1764
01:39:43,160 --> 01:39:46,040
Speaker 9: bodies or in looking for people who are lost. So

1765
01:39:46,640 --> 01:39:50,040
Speaker 9: often Yeah, often it will be yes, somebody's somebody's spouse

1766
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:52,240
Speaker 9: who comes when when it is actually the first person

1767
01:39:52,280 --> 01:39:52,719
Speaker 9: on listening.

1768
01:39:53,360 --> 01:39:58,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's very common right for volunteers to be

1769
01:39:58,280 --> 01:40:01,519
Speaker 4: alerted VIO. You know, I know some of the certain

1770
01:40:01,520 --> 01:40:04,320
Speaker 4: rescue groups are alerted by like Instagram for instance, that

1771
01:40:04,520 --> 01:40:07,800
Speaker 4: like someone is missing. Right, It's not like there is

1772
01:40:08,920 --> 01:40:13,240
Speaker 4: like despite this being massively overfunded, you can't just call

1773
01:40:13,320 --> 01:40:15,479
Speaker 4: and they won't just send out an ambulance like a

1774
01:40:15,520 --> 01:40:18,120
Speaker 4: lot of a lot of times it is either the

1775
01:40:18,240 --> 01:40:21,840
Speaker 4: family members or like a bunch of volunteers just driving

1776
01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:23,479
Speaker 4: out there in the trucks the last night. Like I

1777
01:40:23,560 --> 01:40:26,559
Speaker 4: can remember in running into some migrants in like twenty

1778
01:40:26,600 --> 01:40:28,280
Speaker 4: twenty three and then being like, hey, there are some

1779
01:40:28,400 --> 01:40:31,320
Speaker 4: other people down there and I was like where, how

1780
01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:33,120
Speaker 4: do you know? And they found them on a snapchat

1781
01:40:33,240 --> 01:40:36,200
Speaker 4: mat wow, and like that that was you know, the

1782
01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:39,679
Speaker 4: only thing that maybe said those people's lives And yeah,

1783
01:40:39,720 --> 01:40:42,559
Speaker 4: it's pretty brutal to think that like there's still really

1784
01:40:42,960 --> 01:40:44,680
Speaker 4: there's no one where there are people you can call,

1785
01:40:44,760 --> 01:40:46,120
Speaker 4: I'm help you, But it's not the people who are

1786
01:40:46,120 --> 01:40:50,040
Speaker 4: getting billions of dollars. Let's talk very briefly before we

1787
01:40:50,080 --> 01:40:52,519
Speaker 4: finish up about desks outside of the United States. I

1788
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:56,120
Speaker 4: see you have some data, Like obviously my familiarity is

1789
01:40:57,080 --> 01:40:59,719
Speaker 4: with the Daddy and GAP, which I could like getting.

1790
01:41:00,200 --> 01:41:02,960
Speaker 4: I don't think that data exists, but like, I see

1791
01:41:03,000 --> 01:41:05,880
Speaker 4: you have a number of data points within Mexico. Can

1792
01:41:05,960 --> 01:41:08,120
Speaker 4: you explain like how you came across service and to

1793
01:41:08,200 --> 01:41:12,720
Speaker 4: what extent that data is if a toll like representative

1794
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:13,280
Speaker 4: or complete.

1795
01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:16,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, so it's not at all representative or complete. It

1796
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:20,120
Speaker 9: all comes from the National Institute of Immigration, the.

1797
01:41:20,360 --> 01:41:22,400
Speaker 5: I and M in Mexico.

1798
01:41:22,920 --> 01:41:23,120
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1799
01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:23,800
Speaker 5: Two.

1800
01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:28,880
Speaker 9: Yes, the warder working people's data are they're like sort

1801
01:41:28,920 --> 01:41:34,640
Speaker 9: of like quotun cloth entertain and it were migrants instituted

1802
01:41:34,720 --> 01:41:38,880
Speaker 9: by the government of Mexico, New Mexico. And so we

1803
01:41:39,680 --> 01:41:44,080
Speaker 9: through the Mexicano Google Eployer, you're able to get data

1804
01:41:44,240 --> 01:41:47,760
Speaker 9: from the group of VETA, which throughout the years there's

1805
01:41:47,840 --> 01:41:50,360
Speaker 9: been kind of like changing locations of offices.

1806
01:41:51,240 --> 01:41:54,200
Speaker 5: So the data we have is just from where their

1807
01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:55,840
Speaker 5: offices are.

1808
01:41:56,120 --> 01:41:58,080
Speaker 9: So it's usually just sort of like a number of

1809
01:41:58,200 --> 01:42:01,559
Speaker 9: deaths for that particular office for that particular year.

1810
01:42:01,760 --> 01:42:03,640
Speaker 5: Yes, it's very very limited, and.

1811
01:42:05,160 --> 01:42:09,960
Speaker 9: There's many many, many deaths that we then have other

1812
01:42:10,160 --> 01:42:13,040
Speaker 9: data to show that doesn't exist here.

1813
01:42:13,200 --> 01:42:14,760
Speaker 5: So it's really just planet life.

1814
01:42:15,400 --> 01:42:17,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, it shouldn't be taken as any kind of like

1815
01:42:17,160 --> 01:42:20,400
Speaker 9: representative sample or it's goodly just the one piece of

1816
01:42:21,160 --> 01:42:22,519
Speaker 9: Mexican data that we were able to.

1817
01:42:22,840 --> 01:42:23,800
Speaker 5: Quickly put on the map.

1818
01:42:24,040 --> 01:42:24,240
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1819
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:26,679
Speaker 5: We shod get other data.

1820
01:42:26,640 --> 01:42:31,760
Speaker 9: From my specific states in Mexico, but we through because

1821
01:42:31,800 --> 01:42:34,760
Speaker 9: of time and capacity and just the data itself, we

1822
01:42:34,840 --> 01:42:37,280
Speaker 9: were unable to turn back into that.

1823
01:42:37,880 --> 01:42:40,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, we wouldn't do something with that.

1824
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:44,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think it still remains true that like

1825
01:42:44,320 --> 01:42:47,200
Speaker 4: the single deadliest mine of this journey is the United

1826
01:42:47,240 --> 01:42:52,639
Speaker 4: States border, at least from this data that you're seeing.

1827
01:42:52,680 --> 01:42:56,280
Speaker 4: Did would you say this data still supports that probably?

1828
01:42:56,800 --> 01:42:57,200
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1829
01:42:57,479 --> 01:43:01,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, Yeah, I just don't want to say, because the

1830
01:43:01,960 --> 01:43:03,880
Speaker 9: data is just so bad in so many places, especially

1831
01:43:03,880 --> 01:43:04,639
Speaker 9: in Mexico abought.

1832
01:43:04,960 --> 01:43:07,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm thinking of like the Daddy in right, Like

1833
01:43:07,880 --> 01:43:12,960
Speaker 4: it's it's very deadly. I've seen people die there, Like

1834
01:43:14,160 --> 01:43:16,840
Speaker 4: it's obviously a very very difficult and rugged place. But

1835
01:43:16,920 --> 01:43:20,000
Speaker 4: I think comparatively, probably more people die at the US border,

1836
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:24,400
Speaker 4: just because there were more of them and because people

1837
01:43:24,479 --> 01:43:27,080
Speaker 4: come like people are Yeah, not everyone has to cross

1838
01:43:27,120 --> 01:43:29,439
Speaker 4: a dairy end. Like people can fly to Mexico or

1839
01:43:30,040 --> 01:43:32,880
Speaker 4: somewhere further south, right and then come up that way.

1840
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:36,400
Speaker 4: Where if people want to find this data, or perhaps

1841
01:43:36,439 --> 01:43:39,840
Speaker 4: there's someone who's like a ninja with with data and

1842
01:43:40,000 --> 01:43:42,240
Speaker 4: data visualization and they want to offer to help, like

1843
01:43:42,479 --> 01:43:44,519
Speaker 4: where can people find this and how can they reach

1844
01:43:44,560 --> 01:43:46,200
Speaker 4: out to no more desks if they'd like to help

1845
01:43:46,240 --> 01:43:46,760
Speaker 4: in some way.

1846
01:43:47,320 --> 01:43:49,439
Speaker 9: Yeah, So just on the normal desk website you can

1847
01:43:49,520 --> 01:43:51,880
Speaker 9: see the report and the map and all that stuff.

1848
01:43:52,120 --> 01:43:57,599
Speaker 9: And in there there's a link to the media outreach email,

1849
01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:00,280
Speaker 9: which in the next couple of months is my email,

1850
01:44:00,720 --> 01:44:04,679
Speaker 9: and just Felker to send send an email there and yeah,

1851
01:44:04,840 --> 01:44:08,360
Speaker 9: happy to give greater accents. And right now the data

1852
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:14,160
Speaker 9: is pretty anonymized for privacy and safety. Yeah, and there's

1853
01:44:14,200 --> 01:44:16,200
Speaker 9: a lot of the fields that we've kind of talked

1854
01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:19,320
Speaker 9: about that don't look here in the public database. So

1855
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:25,000
Speaker 9: happy to share that with researchers, activists, advocacy people, journal.

1856
01:44:24,760 --> 01:44:25,400
Speaker 5: US and things like that.

1857
01:44:25,720 --> 01:44:30,040
Speaker 9: And also we desperately would out to help, so interested

1858
01:44:30,080 --> 01:44:31,600
Speaker 9: in looking at some spreadsheets?

1859
01:44:31,920 --> 01:44:34,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, cool, great, Thank you so much your time

1860
01:44:34,800 --> 01:44:36,120
Speaker 4: and for all the work on this I know this

1861
01:44:36,280 --> 01:44:38,040
Speaker 4: was a lot of work getting those records, and I

1862
01:44:38,120 --> 01:44:40,800
Speaker 4: think it I know it gives us something to point

1863
01:44:40,840 --> 01:44:43,479
Speaker 4: to to show how many people this this ball of

1864
01:44:43,520 --> 01:44:44,960
Speaker 4: shit is killing totally.

1865
01:45:02,360 --> 01:45:05,240
Speaker 10: This is it could happen here, a show about things

1866
01:45:05,320 --> 01:45:08,960
Speaker 10: falling apart. I'm Garrison Davis this episode. I'm joined by

1867
01:45:09,080 --> 01:45:09,679
Speaker 10: Mia Wong.

1868
01:45:10,240 --> 01:45:10,439
Speaker 5: Mia.

1869
01:45:10,840 --> 01:45:12,719
Speaker 8: I have some upsetting news.

1870
01:45:13,040 --> 01:45:18,559
Speaker 10: Oh no, which is frankly one of the best ways

1871
01:45:18,600 --> 01:45:20,559
Speaker 10: to start in this episode and one of the best

1872
01:45:20,600 --> 01:45:24,040
Speaker 10: ways to start the show. So I'm pretty sure that

1873
01:45:24,240 --> 01:45:28,519
Speaker 10: I found this account called, uh, let's see at Haill Hitler,

1874
01:45:28,640 --> 01:45:31,240
Speaker 10: and I think he's posting some things that is a

1875
01:45:31,400 --> 01:45:32,439
Speaker 10: little bit fascist.

1876
01:45:32,600 --> 01:45:33,080
Speaker 8: Oh wow.

1877
01:45:33,360 --> 01:45:37,400
Speaker 10: I have decoded some of at Hell Hitler's communications and

1878
01:45:37,560 --> 01:45:41,519
Speaker 10: I have uncovered a secret a secret Nazi code.

1879
01:45:42,760 --> 01:45:43,040
Speaker 5: Wow.

1880
01:45:43,439 --> 01:45:46,559
Speaker 8: This is this is an incredibly unexpected revelation from Hailed Hitler.

1881
01:45:47,040 --> 01:45:49,599
Speaker 10: He has posted some pictures in like what I would

1882
01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:52,439
Speaker 10: assume is some kind of military uniform that looks like

1883
01:45:52,520 --> 01:45:54,360
Speaker 10: I don't know, it's it's some kind of like like

1884
01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:58,719
Speaker 10: Germanic military uniform. But I've noticed that there's some runes

1885
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:01,800
Speaker 10: on this uniform, oh, that look very similar to the

1886
01:46:01,880 --> 01:46:05,160
Speaker 10: Odal rune. So I'm thinking because of the run, this

1887
01:46:05,320 --> 01:46:05,960
Speaker 10: guy might.

1888
01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:06,519
Speaker 2: Be a Nazi.

1889
01:46:06,800 --> 01:46:08,840
Speaker 8: Thank you for your work, Erison. We can never have

1890
01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:11,600
Speaker 8: determined this, that's right, I am. You can find me

1891
01:46:11,680 --> 01:46:19,120
Speaker 8: at osen to Defender online and no that doesn't for

1892
01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:22,080
Speaker 8: us today, and it could happen here now. So this emisode,

1893
01:46:22,120 --> 01:46:25,280
Speaker 8: we're gonna talk about something that's been slowly frustrating me

1894
01:46:25,400 --> 01:46:29,600
Speaker 8: the past few weeks, and that is the misapplication of

1895
01:46:29,720 --> 01:46:30,520
Speaker 8: dog whistles.

1896
01:46:31,360 --> 01:46:35,960
Speaker 10: And let's just get right into it. People have been

1897
01:46:36,280 --> 01:46:43,120
Speaker 10: noticing patterns, noticing trends in official communications from the dhs

1898
01:46:43,520 --> 01:46:46,880
Speaker 10: gov online accounts, which now is the main way the

1899
01:46:46,960 --> 01:46:53,080
Speaker 10: government sends out communications unfortunately, especially on X the Everything app.

1900
01:46:53,479 --> 01:46:56,720
Speaker 10: But this, this extends outside of X the Everything after,

1901
01:46:56,720 --> 01:47:00,400
Speaker 10: this extends outside of Blue Sky the Internet in general.

1902
01:47:00,640 --> 01:47:05,080
Speaker 10: This is about how we understand the messaging of fascists

1903
01:47:05,200 --> 01:47:10,000
Speaker 10: and understand how rhetoric and anti fascist like education works

1904
01:47:10,520 --> 01:47:13,280
Speaker 10: and ways that I think it's currently being misapplied.

1905
01:47:13,800 --> 01:47:14,960
Speaker 8: So bear with me.

1906
01:47:15,160 --> 01:47:18,519
Speaker 10: This is gonna be kind of an odd episode, but

1907
01:47:18,680 --> 01:47:21,760
Speaker 10: I think I think it's worth it because I don't

1908
01:47:21,800 --> 01:47:24,679
Speaker 10: want us falling into the same traps that we maybe

1909
01:47:24,760 --> 01:47:27,960
Speaker 10: fell into eight years ago. So let's Let's let's start

1910
01:47:28,000 --> 01:47:32,120
Speaker 10: by talking about some communications posted on the internet by

1911
01:47:32,200 --> 01:47:37,680
Speaker 10: at DHS gov. A picture of a painting titled American

1912
01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:43,000
Speaker 10: Progress by John Gast, captioned a heritage to be proud of,

1913
01:47:43,520 --> 01:47:48,880
Speaker 10: comma a homeland worth defending. So on the surface, you know,

1914
01:47:49,160 --> 01:47:54,519
Speaker 10: maybe a slightly hashtag problematic sentiment here with a hashtag

1915
01:47:54,760 --> 01:47:57,919
Speaker 10: problematic painting or at the very least of painting depicting

1916
01:47:58,360 --> 01:48:02,840
Speaker 10: the genocide of Native Americans and Indigenous people specifically with

1917
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:08,200
Speaker 10: like a white supremacist outlook, with this enlarged white woman

1918
01:48:08,439 --> 01:48:12,880
Speaker 10: bathed in a white cloak, bringing forth that the tide

1919
01:48:12,880 --> 01:48:17,040
Speaker 10: of quote unquote progress as Indigenous people are are forced

1920
01:48:17,640 --> 01:48:20,240
Speaker 10: to flee from the edge of the painting.

1921
01:48:20,720 --> 01:48:23,599
Speaker 8: It's it's fun because this is a painting we literally

1922
01:48:24,200 --> 01:48:28,040
Speaker 8: when they had to explain manifest destiny like colonialism good.

1923
01:48:28,240 --> 01:48:30,479
Speaker 8: This is the painting that was in my textbook in

1924
01:48:31,080 --> 01:48:34,080
Speaker 8: high school. Is three class like and it is like

1925
01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:37,920
Speaker 8: the er, the er colonialism good, genocide good painting.

1926
01:48:37,920 --> 01:48:42,080
Speaker 10: Genocide good. That that's what the painting is. But what

1927
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:46,400
Speaker 10: I have found through some hashtag research, there might be

1928
01:48:46,439 --> 01:48:50,040
Speaker 10: a hidden code in this in this communication from the

1929
01:48:50,160 --> 01:48:53,880
Speaker 10: DHS who already an agency that only has the best

1930
01:48:53,960 --> 01:48:57,400
Speaker 10: interests and of really all people who strive for human rights,

1931
01:48:57,479 --> 01:49:00,960
Speaker 10: the DHS. So if you count all of the words

1932
01:49:01,000 --> 01:49:02,560
Speaker 10: in the tweet, guess how many words there are in

1933
01:49:02,640 --> 01:49:07,480
Speaker 10: this tweet? Mea fifteen no, so close, so close, fourteen

1934
01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:12,280
Speaker 10: fourteen words in this tweet, which might remind you of

1935
01:49:12,880 --> 01:49:19,280
Speaker 10: the fourteen words the Nazi signifier, which I probably just explain.

1936
01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:22,439
Speaker 10: Surely most people listening to this is familiar with the

1937
01:49:22,479 --> 01:49:25,080
Speaker 10: fourteen words, since it seems everybody thinks they are an

1938
01:49:25,200 --> 01:49:31,280
Speaker 10: armchair expert on fascist rhetoric. But the fourteen words we

1939
01:49:31,800 --> 01:49:35,479
Speaker 10: must secure the existence of our people and a future

1940
01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:41,120
Speaker 10: for white children. This became a popular hashtag dog whistle,

1941
01:49:41,840 --> 01:49:46,559
Speaker 10: especially in the past. I would say ten fifteen years,

1942
01:49:47,600 --> 01:49:52,519
Speaker 10: usually by implanting fourteen's and usually fourteen eighty eights with

1943
01:49:52,680 --> 01:49:56,040
Speaker 10: eighty eight meaning Hale Hitler because H is the eighth

1944
01:49:56,160 --> 01:49:59,719
Speaker 10: letter of the alphabet. This became a common Nazi tag.

1945
01:50:00,080 --> 01:50:02,719
Speaker 10: You could see this in graffiti, You see this embedded

1946
01:50:02,800 --> 01:50:06,680
Speaker 10: into into posts, see this in like Nazi artwork. And

1947
01:50:07,439 --> 01:50:11,559
Speaker 10: going back to this DHS post, we cannot only count

1948
01:50:12,040 --> 01:50:15,280
Speaker 10: fourteen words in this tweet. This is actually a fourteen

1949
01:50:15,360 --> 01:50:19,560
Speaker 10: eighty eight because two of the h's in this in

1950
01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:24,280
Speaker 10: this post are capitalized unusually, and that means hal Hitler

1951
01:50:24,439 --> 01:50:26,080
Speaker 10: Wow because hc eighth letter.

1952
01:50:26,200 --> 01:50:26,760
Speaker 8: Uh huh oh.

1953
01:50:26,960 --> 01:50:30,040
Speaker 10: But wait, actually looking at this post again, there's actually

1954
01:50:30,200 --> 01:50:33,760
Speaker 10: other words in this tweet that are also unusually capitalized.

1955
01:50:33,800 --> 01:50:34,439
Speaker 8: But don't worry.

1956
01:50:34,439 --> 01:50:34,880
Speaker 2: Don't worry.

1957
01:50:35,200 --> 01:50:38,000
Speaker 10: This is still a dog whistle because those other words

1958
01:50:38,040 --> 01:50:40,800
Speaker 10: that are capitalized in the first sentence are the letters

1959
01:50:40,880 --> 01:50:44,519
Speaker 10: A and D, which if you convert those into numbers,

1960
01:50:45,040 --> 01:50:47,839
Speaker 10: are one in four, so it's actually another fourteen.

1961
01:50:48,640 --> 01:50:52,640
Speaker 8: Oh wow, we're doing we're doing numerology. We're doing jamatria,

1962
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:55,960
Speaker 8: where we've become q and on. We're so back.

1963
01:50:56,720 --> 01:50:59,880
Speaker 10: So if you cannot tell by my, my, my thinly

1964
01:51:00,080 --> 01:51:05,120
Speaker 10: veiled sarcasm in that last section, I think this methodology

1965
01:51:05,200 --> 01:51:06,080
Speaker 10: is a little bit silly.

1966
01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:07,360
Speaker 8: What are we doing?

1967
01:51:07,479 --> 01:51:08,160
Speaker 2: What are we doing here?

1968
01:51:08,200 --> 01:51:11,320
Speaker 10: We're converting capitalized letters in the first half of a

1969
01:51:11,479 --> 01:51:14,800
Speaker 10: tweet into numbers and then rearranging the order of those

1970
01:51:14,880 --> 01:51:17,640
Speaker 10: letters to get a fourteen eighty eight it's literally jerbatria,

1971
01:51:17,680 --> 01:51:21,200
Speaker 10: and then also counting the total words in the whole

1972
01:51:21,320 --> 01:51:25,000
Speaker 10: suite while still disregarding the capitalizations in the last four

1973
01:51:25,120 --> 01:51:29,320
Speaker 10: words for another fourteen What are we doing? How is

1974
01:51:29,400 --> 01:51:32,240
Speaker 10: this the piece of evidence that sinks sinks the Trump

1975
01:51:32,240 --> 01:51:36,040
Speaker 10: administration and finally proves that they're fascist. You can just

1976
01:51:36,200 --> 01:51:39,280
Speaker 10: look at all of the fascist policies the Trump administration

1977
01:51:39,520 --> 01:51:44,479
Speaker 10: is enacting. Instead of doing numerology on tweets, people are thinking,

1978
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:48,360
Speaker 10: ha ha ha ha, I have decoded the secret Nazi

1979
01:51:48,439 --> 01:51:56,080
Speaker 10: message with AHHD one eight eight fourteen. Nice trigroipers. Meanwhile,

1980
01:51:56,400 --> 01:51:59,280
Speaker 10: you can just look at the actual text of the post.

1981
01:51:59,439 --> 01:52:02,360
Speaker 10: You can look at the painting. Both of those things

1982
01:52:02,479 --> 01:52:07,240
Speaker 10: have an inherent fascist quality. It's literally defending the concept

1983
01:52:07,320 --> 01:52:13,400
Speaker 10: of ethnic genocide, of manifest destiny. While the administration, the

1984
01:52:13,520 --> 01:52:17,200
Speaker 10: DHS is currently furthering as no nationalist policies.

1985
01:52:17,520 --> 01:52:20,720
Speaker 8: They are doing this. This is homeland security, right. I

1986
01:52:20,760 --> 01:52:22,760
Speaker 8: don't know if people realize that ICE is a part

1987
01:52:22,800 --> 01:52:25,640
Speaker 8: of homeland security, but like, this is the agency that

1988
01:52:25,800 --> 01:52:28,639
Speaker 8: is literally rounding people up and sending them to camps.

1989
01:52:28,760 --> 01:52:31,960
Speaker 8: We have camps in multiple countries. Now what I say,

1990
01:52:32,000 --> 01:52:34,440
Speaker 8: they're being round up and sent to camps. It's genuinely

1991
01:52:34,560 --> 01:52:37,799
Speaker 8: unclear whether what I'm talking about is the fucking concentration camp.

1992
01:52:37,680 --> 01:52:39,920
Speaker 10: In Florida see cot In nol Salvador.

1993
01:52:40,200 --> 01:52:42,799
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean I think I think people have now escaped,

1994
01:52:42,840 --> 01:52:46,559
Speaker 8: so I can't technically call the Honduras want a death camp.

1995
01:52:46,600 --> 01:52:48,280
Speaker 8: But like again there's sending people to South u Dan,

1996
01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:52,560
Speaker 8: They're like, they're just doing this, Like what are we

1997
01:52:52,640 --> 01:52:53,080
Speaker 8: doing here?

1998
01:52:53,920 --> 01:52:57,840
Speaker 10: So this episode I want to focus on how people

1999
01:52:57,960 --> 01:53:01,320
Speaker 10: are misusing anti fascist edge, or I would argue they're

2000
01:53:01,320 --> 01:53:04,639
Speaker 10: misusing anti fascist education and kind of missing the forest

2001
01:53:04,880 --> 01:53:09,679
Speaker 10: for a cardboard cutout of trees, not even trees, kind

2002
01:53:09,720 --> 01:53:11,840
Speaker 10: of something that could be a tree if you look

2003
01:53:11,880 --> 01:53:14,960
Speaker 10: at it from one angle, but maybe isn't actually a

2004
01:53:15,040 --> 01:53:18,120
Speaker 10: real tree. And you don't need to sound like a

2005
01:53:18,200 --> 01:53:21,639
Speaker 10: Da Vinci Code conspiracy theorist to point out the obvious,

2006
01:53:22,080 --> 01:53:27,040
Speaker 10: like dog whistles don't matter if the regular whistle is

2007
01:53:27,240 --> 01:53:32,200
Speaker 10: already fascist. If they're just saying things openly and furthermore

2008
01:53:32,400 --> 01:53:37,439
Speaker 10: doing things, what purpose does a dog whistle haen? And

2009
01:53:37,560 --> 01:53:40,200
Speaker 10: this is something that we're going to discuss. Are not

2010
01:53:40,439 --> 01:53:43,040
Speaker 10: just saying this and closing the episode, We're going to

2011
01:53:43,080 --> 01:53:47,080
Speaker 10: get into these And I think part of what's happening

2012
01:53:47,439 --> 01:53:52,680
Speaker 10: here everybody is so cooked by the paranoid style of

2013
01:53:52,800 --> 01:53:58,759
Speaker 10: American politics. Everyone is so eager to decode the hidden

2014
01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:01,800
Speaker 10: messages that we're missing what's right in front of us.

2015
01:54:02,640 --> 01:54:07,040
Speaker 10: QAnon has a total victory. Qwanon does not really exist

2016
01:54:07,280 --> 01:54:09,720
Speaker 10: in the way that it did in twenty eighteen. That

2017
01:54:09,960 --> 01:54:13,439
Speaker 10: the q Andon cult conspiracy theory as like a singular

2018
01:54:14,120 --> 01:54:17,679
Speaker 10: cultish project is kind of no more. But q Andon

2019
01:54:17,760 --> 01:54:20,960
Speaker 10: has a cultural victory over the entire United States, and

2020
01:54:21,080 --> 01:54:23,000
Speaker 10: not just on the right wing, not just on Mega.

2021
01:54:23,640 --> 01:54:24,160
Speaker 8: So much of.

2022
01:54:24,160 --> 01:54:27,960
Speaker 10: American politics now is litigating who is and is not

2023
01:54:28,080 --> 01:54:31,599
Speaker 10: a pedophile, who is and is not trafficking children, who

2024
01:54:31,720 --> 01:54:36,120
Speaker 10: can notice which events are staged, who can notice hidden codes,

2025
01:54:36,160 --> 01:54:39,280
Speaker 10: who can decode anonymous messages on the Internet, And this

2026
01:54:39,520 --> 01:54:43,920
Speaker 10: is what like everything is. And like the real turning

2027
01:54:43,960 --> 01:54:46,920
Speaker 10: point I think for the right wing was probably the

2028
01:54:46,960 --> 01:54:50,400
Speaker 10: twenty twenty election in like a massive fracture from reality

2029
01:54:50,680 --> 01:54:53,200
Speaker 10: in which they think that election was legitimately stolen. And

2030
01:54:53,240 --> 01:54:55,640
Speaker 10: obviously there was many events leading up to that which

2031
01:54:55,680 --> 01:54:57,840
Speaker 10: contributed to this. Yeah, and I think one of the

2032
01:54:57,880 --> 01:55:02,000
Speaker 10: biggest fracture points for liberal was the attempted assassination of

2033
01:55:02,040 --> 01:55:05,640
Speaker 10: Donald Trump, with people creating whole new alternate realities that

2034
01:55:05,760 --> 01:55:08,160
Speaker 10: that event was staged and because that door is opened.

2035
01:55:08,520 --> 01:55:11,040
Speaker 10: Now I am seeing such a massive flood of things

2036
01:55:11,080 --> 01:55:13,720
Speaker 10: that I would label as bluing on conspiracy theories, which

2037
01:55:13,760 --> 01:55:16,120
Speaker 10: is kind of a nonsense term, but it gets the

2038
01:55:16,160 --> 01:55:19,080
Speaker 10: point across. And gonna do a whole piece on bluing

2039
01:55:19,160 --> 01:55:21,640
Speaker 10: on very soon. I've been collecting blueing on conspiracy theories

2040
01:55:21,680 --> 01:55:23,680
Speaker 10: for a while, but I want to do something specifically

2041
01:55:23,720 --> 01:55:26,400
Speaker 10: about this fourteen eighty eight and like secret codes thing,

2042
01:55:26,880 --> 01:55:31,560
Speaker 10: because it's so evocative of like, you know, Q drops,

2043
01:55:31,920 --> 01:55:35,560
Speaker 10: and it's evocative of, you know, searching for Masonic codes,

2044
01:55:35,720 --> 01:55:40,320
Speaker 10: something that American conspiracy theorists have been doing for generations.

2045
01:55:41,000 --> 01:55:43,440
Speaker 10: And we're to talk about that more and read a

2046
01:55:43,480 --> 01:55:47,240
Speaker 10: little bit of an essay on that topic after this

2047
01:55:47,400 --> 01:55:50,000
Speaker 10: ad break, and I will let you know there's gonna

2048
01:55:50,000 --> 01:55:52,160
Speaker 10: be two messages in the ad break that if you decode,

2049
01:55:52,440 --> 01:55:54,600
Speaker 10: you win a special prize at the end of the episode,

2050
01:55:54,720 --> 01:55:57,480
Speaker 10: So make sure you listen to every single second of

2051
01:55:57,560 --> 01:56:10,120
Speaker 10: the ad in case you miss the code. Okay, we

2052
01:56:10,560 --> 01:56:15,960
Speaker 10: are back, speaking of the paranoid style in American politics.

2053
01:56:16,040 --> 01:56:18,680
Speaker 10: I want to quote a few sections to kind of

2054
01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:21,880
Speaker 10: frame what I'm talking about here. This was an essay

2055
01:56:21,960 --> 01:56:29,839
Speaker 10: written in the sixties by Richard hoff Setter Hofstetter Richard

2056
01:56:29,920 --> 01:56:35,520
Speaker 10: Hoffstetter one of the first like modern pieces on American

2057
01:56:35,680 --> 01:56:39,880
Speaker 10: conspiracy culture and politics. I'm gonna I have three paragraphs

2058
01:56:39,880 --> 01:56:42,360
Speaker 10: here that I that I selected as as being relevant

2059
01:56:42,400 --> 01:56:45,160
Speaker 10: to the current the current topic at hand.

2060
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:45,640
Speaker 8: Quote.

2061
01:56:46,240 --> 01:56:48,280
Speaker 10: There is a style of mind that is far from

2062
01:56:48,400 --> 01:56:52,240
Speaker 10: new and that is not necessarily right wing. I call

2063
01:56:52,280 --> 01:56:55,720
Speaker 10: it the paranoid style simply because no other word adequately

2064
01:56:55,760 --> 01:57:00,600
Speaker 10: evokes the sense of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratory fantasy

2065
01:57:00,680 --> 01:57:03,680
Speaker 10: that I have in mind. Nothing really prevents a sound

2066
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:07,320
Speaker 10: program or demand from being advocated in the paranoid style.

2067
01:57:07,920 --> 01:57:10,640
Speaker 10: Style has more to do with the way in which

2068
01:57:10,840 --> 01:57:15,000
Speaker 10: ideas are believed than with the truth or falsity of

2069
01:57:15,080 --> 01:57:15,800
Speaker 10: their content.

2070
01:57:16,400 --> 01:57:16,879
Speaker 2: Unquote.

2071
01:57:17,160 --> 01:57:20,160
Speaker 10: And I like that section specifically because fourteen eighty eight

2072
01:57:20,280 --> 01:57:23,480
Speaker 10: is a real dog whistle. We can see this used.

2073
01:57:23,840 --> 01:57:26,720
Speaker 10: There's aspects of people who are trying to search for

2074
01:57:26,880 --> 01:57:31,040
Speaker 10: this and trying to search for patterns in the communications

2075
01:57:31,120 --> 01:57:35,520
Speaker 10: of an admittedly fascistic government agency that I find like sympathetic,

2076
01:57:35,600 --> 01:57:38,680
Speaker 10: like I can under I can understand because yeah, that

2077
01:57:38,840 --> 01:57:40,840
Speaker 10: is a real dog whistle. I'm going to continue the

2078
01:57:40,920 --> 01:57:44,440
Speaker 10: quote quote the paranoid spokesman sees the fate of conspiracy

2079
01:57:44,640 --> 01:57:48,200
Speaker 10: in apocalyptic terms. He traffics in the birth and death

2080
01:57:48,280 --> 01:57:52,879
Speaker 10: of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of human values.

2081
01:57:53,360 --> 01:57:57,560
Speaker 10: He is always manning the barricades of civilization. He constantly

2082
01:57:57,600 --> 01:58:00,560
Speaker 10: lives at a turning point, like religious millinery. Now he

2083
01:58:00,640 --> 01:58:03,400
Speaker 10: expresses the anxiety of those who are living through the

2084
01:58:03,520 --> 01:58:07,520
Speaker 10: last days, and he is sometimes disposed to set a

2085
01:58:07,680 --> 01:58:11,280
Speaker 10: date for the apocalypse. As a member of the avant

2086
01:58:11,320 --> 01:58:14,600
Speaker 10: garde who is capable of perceiving the conspiracy before it

2087
01:58:14,720 --> 01:58:17,720
Speaker 10: is fully obvious to it. As of yet to unaroused public,

2088
01:58:18,160 --> 01:58:22,240
Speaker 10: the paranoid is a militant leader. Demand for total triumph

2089
01:58:22,600 --> 01:58:27,200
Speaker 10: leads to the formulation of hopelessly unrealistic goals, and since

2090
01:58:27,480 --> 01:58:31,760
Speaker 10: these goals are not even remotely attainable, failure constantly heightens

2091
01:58:31,840 --> 01:58:36,960
Speaker 10: the paranoid's sense of frustration. Unquote, Hofstetter is talking about

2092
01:58:37,000 --> 01:58:39,680
Speaker 10: something that that me and Robert specifically have have have

2093
01:58:39,800 --> 01:58:43,480
Speaker 10: discussed a lot on this show before. How everyone in

2094
01:58:43,600 --> 01:58:47,680
Speaker 10: America wants to have access to secret information m h.

2095
01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:52,560
Speaker 10: Everyone wants to have the exclusive piece of secret intel

2096
01:58:52,880 --> 01:58:55,960
Speaker 10: that will solve everything, and like having having that like

2097
01:58:56,120 --> 01:59:01,160
Speaker 10: informational exclusivity in a world of information saturation, right of

2098
01:59:01,200 --> 01:59:05,200
Speaker 10: a vortex of like meaningless noise. It's such a romantic

2099
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:08,360
Speaker 10: idea that that I alone have the info or the

2100
01:59:08,480 --> 01:59:12,440
Speaker 10: clue to pieces together, and it's my duty to inform

2101
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:16,840
Speaker 10: the masses. It's a very romantic notion, and it's also

2102
01:59:16,920 --> 01:59:22,080
Speaker 10: one that is exactly perfectly anti suited for the moment

2103
01:59:22,160 --> 01:59:25,240
Speaker 10: we live in, which is actually just a moment where

2104
01:59:25,280 --> 01:59:28,360
Speaker 10: everything that is happening is just so clearingly literal, like

2105
01:59:28,560 --> 01:59:30,920
Speaker 10: it's all out of the Oden, like what is happening

2106
01:59:30,960 --> 01:59:33,400
Speaker 10: with the Trump administration. Okay, In twenty twenty, there is

2107
01:59:33,440 --> 01:59:37,520
Speaker 10: a massive uprising to attempt to attempt to fundamentally change

2108
01:59:38,240 --> 01:59:41,160
Speaker 10: like the structurally racist nature of the United States, to

2109
01:59:41,280 --> 01:59:43,840
Speaker 10: deal with its fucking class inequalities, to deal with the

2110
01:59:43,880 --> 01:59:47,560
Speaker 10: structural violence of the state. This was reacted to by

2111
01:59:47,600 --> 01:59:50,520
Speaker 10: a massive fascist movement that spent half a decade gaining

2112
01:59:50,600 --> 01:59:53,760
Speaker 10: power and then finally took power in the form of

2113
01:59:54,040 --> 01:59:57,600
Speaker 10: like a bunch of pissed off petite bourgeois fucking car

2114
01:59:57,720 --> 02:00:02,040
Speaker 10: dealers and like literally a billionaire real estate mogul backed

2115
02:00:02,080 --> 02:00:04,760
Speaker 10: by the richest tech company guy in the world right,

2116
02:00:04,840 --> 02:00:08,000
Speaker 10: and they came together to build fascism. This is the

2117
02:00:08,200 --> 02:00:14,160
Speaker 10: most straightforward, like if this is a conception of how

2118
02:00:14,280 --> 02:00:19,040
Speaker 10: a fascist takeover works that is so thuddingly literal that

2119
02:00:19,280 --> 02:00:24,280
Speaker 10: it defies narrativization because it's just there. There's no subtlety

2120
02:00:24,360 --> 02:00:26,120
Speaker 10: to it. They're just saying it. They just want to

2121
02:00:26,200 --> 02:00:28,960
Speaker 10: do it, and they're doing it. But everyone is convinced

2122
02:00:28,960 --> 02:00:31,000
Speaker 10: that there's like some kind of secret hitting conspiracy and

2123
02:00:31,040 --> 02:00:34,000
Speaker 10: it's like, no, they're just doing the thing that they're saying. Yeah,

2124
02:00:34,400 --> 02:00:38,160
Speaker 10: you can argue that we have a griper occupied government

2125
02:00:38,840 --> 02:00:43,200
Speaker 10: not because of counting words and posts, but because of

2126
02:00:43,320 --> 02:00:46,320
Speaker 10: not only who they're bringing on for DOGE, but literally

2127
02:00:46,400 --> 02:00:49,080
Speaker 10: Ice in DHS as of today, which I'm recording this

2128
02:00:49,200 --> 02:00:51,120
Speaker 10: on Wednesday, I think, because this comes out Wednesday night,

2129
02:00:51,520 --> 02:00:55,160
Speaker 10: are copying like Patriot Front style tactics of loading up

2130
02:00:55,200 --> 02:00:59,440
Speaker 10: ICE agents in U haul style rentable trucks to do

2131
02:00:59,640 --> 02:01:03,200
Speaker 10: hunt down people to assault and kidnap, like they're just

2132
02:01:03,320 --> 02:01:07,600
Speaker 10: copying the Patriot Front playbook. Here the ICE director said

2133
02:01:07,640 --> 02:01:11,640
Speaker 10: that he wants an Amazon like mass deportation system, calling

2134
02:01:11,640 --> 02:01:15,840
Speaker 10: it quote unquote Amazon Prime, but with human beings. They're

2135
02:01:15,880 --> 02:01:20,560
Speaker 10: saying this, you can say, listen to the actual words.

2136
02:01:20,880 --> 02:01:23,920
Speaker 10: I'm going to read another quote here from the Paranoid

2137
02:01:23,920 --> 02:01:27,920
Speaker 10: Style of American Politics essay quote. A final characteristic of

2138
02:01:27,960 --> 02:01:31,560
Speaker 10: the paranoid style is related to the quality of its pedantry.

2139
02:01:31,960 --> 02:01:34,680
Speaker 10: One of the impressive things about paranoid literature is the

2140
02:01:34,720 --> 02:01:39,480
Speaker 10: contrast between its fantasized conclusions and the almost touching concern

2141
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:44,640
Speaker 10: with factuality it invariably shows. It produces heroic strivings for

2142
02:01:44,720 --> 02:01:47,440
Speaker 10: evidence to prove that the unbelievable is the only thing

2143
02:01:47,520 --> 02:01:52,280
Speaker 10: that can be believed respectable. Paranoid literature not only starts

2144
02:01:52,320 --> 02:01:56,120
Speaker 10: from certain mortal commitments that can indeed be justified, but

2145
02:01:56,360 --> 02:02:01,600
Speaker 10: also carefully and all but obsessively accumulates unquote evidence. The

2146
02:02:01,680 --> 02:02:06,480
Speaker 10: paranoid seems to have little expectation for actually convincing a

2147
02:02:06,600 --> 02:02:09,960
Speaker 10: hostile world, but he can accumulate evidence in order to

2148
02:02:10,040 --> 02:02:15,120
Speaker 10: protect his cherished convictions from it unquote. And I think

2149
02:02:15,200 --> 02:02:18,320
Speaker 10: that gets into the psychological mechanisms on why people are

2150
02:02:18,440 --> 02:02:22,120
Speaker 10: doing this Nazi code hunting. It's actually a form of

2151
02:02:22,360 --> 02:02:26,280
Speaker 10: self coping. Looking at the horrific state of the federal government,

2152
02:02:26,440 --> 02:02:29,880
Speaker 10: looking at the brazenness in which ICE is operating, and

2153
02:02:30,120 --> 02:02:33,000
Speaker 10: this is a self preservation mechanism. Someone on Blue Sky

2154
02:02:33,080 --> 02:02:34,880
Speaker 10: that I was talking to about this is like arguing,

2155
02:02:34,960 --> 02:02:37,560
Speaker 10: like ICE doesn't need to dog whistle, they have no

2156
02:02:37,720 --> 02:02:38,160
Speaker 10: reason to.

2157
02:02:38,440 --> 02:02:38,480
Speaker 4: Like.

2158
02:02:38,560 --> 02:02:42,320
Speaker 10: Dog whistling is for trying to like sneakily get racists

2159
02:02:42,400 --> 02:02:46,440
Speaker 10: or fascists into power while signaling to a nationalistic base

2160
02:02:46,760 --> 02:02:49,560
Speaker 10: that they are like one of them. Right, But these

2161
02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:52,680
Speaker 10: guys are already in power, and the base already knows

2162
02:02:52,720 --> 02:02:55,640
Speaker 10: that they're in power. There's no point in dog whistling.

2163
02:02:56,080 --> 02:02:58,920
Speaker 10: They're just using ICE to establish an ethno state. They're

2164
02:02:59,000 --> 02:03:02,800
Speaker 10: using explicit ethno state rhetoric. In a post from this

2165
02:03:03,000 --> 02:03:06,520
Speaker 10: morning which has one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

2166
02:03:06,600 --> 02:03:11,520
Speaker 10: eight nine ten words not fourteen ten words, Wow, DHS

2167
02:03:11,600 --> 02:03:16,800
Speaker 10: said quote, serve your country, Defend your culture, no undergraduate

2168
02:03:16,880 --> 02:03:21,040
Speaker 10: degree required. Defend your culture. It's not about locking up

2169
02:03:21,080 --> 02:03:25,040
Speaker 10: criminal migrants. It's about defending a culture from its destruction

2170
02:03:25,280 --> 02:03:30,000
Speaker 10: through ethnic demographic shifts. It's they're not trying to obscure

2171
02:03:30,160 --> 02:03:32,880
Speaker 10: what they're doing. In the slightest No, And I want

2172
02:03:32,880 --> 02:03:35,640
Speaker 10: to return to something else that the Hofstater said that

2173
02:03:35,720 --> 02:03:37,560
Speaker 10: in that second paragraph that you read about how like

2174
02:03:38,560 --> 02:03:40,800
Speaker 10: one of the central conceits is that, like, you know,

2175
02:03:40,880 --> 02:03:43,440
Speaker 10: there's this giant conspiracy that's being unleashed and the American

2176
02:03:43,440 --> 02:03:46,720
Speaker 10: public doesn't know anything about it, and like, yeah, you can.

2177
02:03:46,880 --> 02:03:49,080
Speaker 10: You know, it is distressing to a large extent, the

2178
02:03:49,080 --> 02:03:51,680
Speaker 10: extent to which people just don't know what the government

2179
02:03:51,760 --> 02:03:54,440
Speaker 10: is doing. But also like if you look at any

2180
02:03:54,760 --> 02:03:57,680
Speaker 10: pulling at all, but anything these people are doing, everyone

2181
02:03:57,760 --> 02:04:00,320
Speaker 10: hates it. There isn't like a secret thing you can

2182
02:04:00,360 --> 02:04:02,240
Speaker 10: say to convince people that they're that all these people

2183
02:04:02,280 --> 02:04:04,800
Speaker 10: are Nazis, because it's like and that's not even a

2184
02:04:04,840 --> 02:04:08,200
Speaker 10: particularly useful project because everyone fucking hates them already, Like

2185
02:04:08,320 --> 02:04:10,680
Speaker 10: trying to fight this in the realm of sort of

2186
02:04:11,040 --> 02:04:14,080
Speaker 10: the accumulation of the evidence of conspiracy instead of in

2187
02:04:14,200 --> 02:04:17,480
Speaker 10: the realm of like, hi, i'm your neighbor, you also.

2188
02:04:17,360 --> 02:04:20,240
Speaker 8: Fucking hate this. Let's go fucking like do they shoul

2189
02:04:20,240 --> 02:04:22,400
Speaker 8: people are doing in la and like follow these fucking

2190
02:04:22,440 --> 02:04:26,560
Speaker 8: ice fans around, right, That is stuff that people are doing,

2191
02:04:27,360 --> 02:04:31,919
Speaker 8: but it doesn't have the kind of like instant emotional

2192
02:04:32,000 --> 02:04:36,160
Speaker 8: gratification and register of trying to like accumulate hordes of

2193
02:04:36,200 --> 02:04:39,440
Speaker 8: secret knowledge, so people do it less even though it's

2194
02:04:39,480 --> 02:04:40,080
Speaker 8: less effective.

2195
02:04:40,640 --> 02:04:44,160
Speaker 10: In my discussion of this, like online on various cursed

2196
02:04:44,280 --> 02:04:46,840
Speaker 10: social media sites, I've gotten a lot of pushback to

2197
02:04:46,960 --> 02:04:51,400
Speaker 10: my pushback of these tactics and what I what I

2198
02:04:51,480 --> 02:04:54,720
Speaker 10: see as a sort of like abuse of anti fascist education,

2199
02:04:54,880 --> 02:04:58,160
Speaker 10: right because people, you know, Robert Evans, myself, you know,

2200
02:04:58,280 --> 02:05:01,920
Speaker 10: Molly Conger, spent the past eight years trying to actually,

2201
02:05:02,040 --> 02:05:04,920
Speaker 10: you know, educate people about like Nazi rhetoric, like in

2202
02:05:04,960 --> 02:05:08,440
Speaker 10: like Nazi signals and dog whistles, right, and as an

2203
02:05:08,480 --> 02:05:13,160
Speaker 10: attempt to hopefully prevent them from expanding their power. And

2204
02:05:14,280 --> 02:05:16,800
Speaker 10: we may have succeeded in education, but we may have

2205
02:05:17,040 --> 02:05:19,360
Speaker 10: failed in the prevention.

2206
02:05:20,880 --> 02:05:22,160
Speaker 8: Of them seizing power.

2207
02:05:22,560 --> 02:05:25,080
Speaker 10: And that also makes me kind of question the effectiveness

2208
02:05:25,120 --> 02:05:28,600
Speaker 10: of certain tactics. And it's now very odd to see

2209
02:05:28,920 --> 02:05:31,880
Speaker 10: things that we you know, argued for visibility around to

2210
02:05:32,000 --> 02:05:35,640
Speaker 10: kind of be used in ways that don't really make sense.

2211
02:05:35,680 --> 02:05:38,480
Speaker 10: That it's it's it's kind of like trying to tame

2212
02:05:38,480 --> 02:05:43,120
Speaker 10: a monster that you've partially created. And it's so frustrating

2213
02:05:43,200 --> 02:05:45,560
Speaker 10: to me because I mean, one person who I was

2214
02:05:46,120 --> 02:05:49,360
Speaker 10: lightly arguing about the line was saying, like, this is

2215
02:05:49,480 --> 02:05:53,120
Speaker 10: not numerology, and we don't have to be just okay

2216
02:05:53,680 --> 02:05:58,240
Speaker 10: with a clear attempt to normalize white nationalist rhetoric. And like,

2217
02:05:58,320 --> 02:06:02,560
Speaker 10: first of all, like codes aren't rhetoric, codes or codes,

2218
02:06:03,320 --> 02:06:06,400
Speaker 10: And the textual fascist sentence.

2219
02:06:06,240 --> 02:06:06,880
Speaker 8: Is the rhetoric.

2220
02:06:07,440 --> 02:06:10,360
Speaker 10: What they're actually like saying, which which has like proto

2221
02:06:10,400 --> 02:06:14,320
Speaker 10: fascist or fascistic aspects, That is the rhetoric and they're

2222
02:06:14,680 --> 02:06:18,600
Speaker 10: doing it. Is there somebody out there in twenty twenty

2223
02:06:18,680 --> 02:06:22,360
Speaker 10: five who's gonna finally realize that DHS as an agency

2224
02:06:22,480 --> 02:06:26,600
Speaker 10: has fascistic underpinnings via a chronically online Twitter user explaining

2225
02:06:26,680 --> 02:06:29,320
Speaker 10: that if you count words and turn certain captize letters

2226
02:06:29,360 --> 02:06:33,000
Speaker 10: into numbers, it makes a secret Nazi message. Is there

2227
02:06:33,040 --> 02:06:35,400
Speaker 10: one person is going to become convinced to us, No,

2228
02:06:36,240 --> 02:06:38,800
Speaker 10: that's not the purpose. So trying to conceptionize this is

2229
02:06:38,840 --> 02:06:40,920
Speaker 10: like we have to we have to make sure we

2230
02:06:41,320 --> 02:06:45,280
Speaker 10: call out the use of Nazi rhetoric that doesn't apply

2231
02:06:45,440 --> 02:06:47,680
Speaker 10: to this specific thing that we're talking about.

2232
02:06:48,200 --> 02:06:50,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, and also like I think, you know, like I

2233
02:06:50,920 --> 02:06:52,960
Speaker 8: think we sort of kind of just to some extent,

2234
02:06:53,000 --> 02:06:55,480
Speaker 8: we've just failed on the normalization from it because again,

2235
02:06:55,640 --> 02:06:58,080
Speaker 8: like it's the president of the United States. Yeah, this

2236
02:06:58,240 --> 02:07:01,560
Speaker 8: is the official account of the Department of Homeland Security.

2237
02:07:01,680 --> 02:07:04,000
Speaker 8: It has already become normalized because they have power. The

2238
02:07:04,040 --> 02:07:06,920
Speaker 8: only way to denormalize it is not actually to do

2239
02:07:07,120 --> 02:07:11,520
Speaker 8: media critique. It's to like actually oppose them. But that's scary,

2240
02:07:11,840 --> 02:07:12,280
Speaker 8: that's scary.

2241
02:07:12,400 --> 02:07:15,640
Speaker 10: Repet Marybia, do you know what's easy posting on X

2242
02:07:15,720 --> 02:07:16,800
Speaker 10: the everything app Yeah.

2243
02:07:16,880 --> 02:07:21,080
Speaker 8: This is how this kind of conspiratorial worldview actually empowers

2244
02:07:21,120 --> 02:07:25,320
Speaker 8: the state, because the central conceit of the conspiratorial worldview

2245
02:07:25,480 --> 02:07:28,080
Speaker 8: is that there is a nearly all powerful agency that

2246
02:07:28,240 --> 02:07:32,000
Speaker 8: controls in apparatus that enables it to basically control any

2247
02:07:32,040 --> 02:07:33,720
Speaker 8: events that it wants. Right, this is why I can

2248
02:07:33,800 --> 02:07:35,600
Speaker 8: stage things, this is why I can recollection. This is

2249
02:07:35,680 --> 02:07:37,960
Speaker 8: why it can like I don't know, like it can

2250
02:07:38,120 --> 02:07:41,880
Speaker 8: just like magically like disappear anyone. It can replace them

2251
02:07:41,920 --> 02:07:44,880
Speaker 8: with anyone. It can stage any protest movement it wants

2252
02:07:44,920 --> 02:07:48,200
Speaker 8: to right. And I think you've seen this a lot

2253
02:07:48,240 --> 02:07:50,320
Speaker 8: in the American case, where like I see people who

2254
02:07:50,400 --> 02:07:52,840
Speaker 8: are like genuinely well meaning leftists who are convinced that

2255
02:07:52,920 --> 02:07:54,600
Speaker 8: if you do anything to resist the American State, you

2256
02:07:54,600 --> 02:07:57,400
Speaker 8: will immediately be killed because the American state is all

2257
02:07:57,480 --> 02:08:01,040
Speaker 8: powerful and irresistible. And that's just fast just propaganda. Yeah,

2258
02:08:01,080 --> 02:08:03,560
Speaker 8: you're falling victim to the panoptic house. Yeah, but but

2259
02:08:03,840 --> 02:08:07,240
Speaker 8: it's it's fascist propaganda that fits into the narrative structure

2260
02:08:07,880 --> 02:08:12,480
Speaker 8: of conspiracy. And because the state is dangerous, right and

2261
02:08:12,720 --> 02:08:15,520
Speaker 8: can hurt you, it's very very easy to you know,

2262
02:08:15,640 --> 02:08:18,760
Speaker 8: accumulate structures of evidence that support the emotional sort of

2263
02:08:19,000 --> 02:08:22,800
Speaker 8: core of this thing that is just literally fascist propaganda.

2264
02:08:22,840 --> 02:08:25,600
Speaker 8: People are resisting the state every day, right, Why is

2265
02:08:25,680 --> 02:08:29,040
Speaker 8: ICE fucking doing patriot prayer tactics and fucking like hiding

2266
02:08:29,120 --> 02:08:31,840
Speaker 8: people in like fucking U hauls to jump out and

2267
02:08:31,880 --> 02:08:33,920
Speaker 8: grab people. It's because when they tried to fucking mass

2268
02:08:34,000 --> 02:08:36,880
Speaker 8: we stomped them, right. And when they drive around in

2269
02:08:37,120 --> 02:08:38,920
Speaker 8: their cars and you can see them through the window,

2270
02:08:39,040 --> 02:08:41,600
Speaker 8: everyone follows them. People can follow them around and alert

2271
02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:44,839
Speaker 8: their community members on where ICE is. Like again, mother

2272
02:08:44,920 --> 02:08:48,640
Speaker 8: motherfuckers and fucking Lulu Levin shit are like screaming at

2273
02:08:48,680 --> 02:08:50,840
Speaker 8: ICE agents when they try to arrest people, like yeah,

2274
02:08:50,880 --> 02:08:54,480
Speaker 8: that's the actual condition we're in, and like we get

2275
02:08:54,520 --> 02:08:55,200
Speaker 8: regular people.

2276
02:08:55,480 --> 02:08:57,200
Speaker 10: And that's why I find some people who would be

2277
02:08:57,240 --> 02:08:59,880
Speaker 10: you know, self described as like anti fascists or selfist

2278
02:09:00,000 --> 02:09:04,200
Speaker 10: described as leftists almost falling into this trap like more

2279
02:09:04,280 --> 02:09:06,880
Speaker 10: so than others. And it's a little bit evident of

2280
02:09:07,000 --> 02:09:10,120
Speaker 10: something that like I've described as like the forever twenty sixteen,

2281
02:09:10,240 --> 02:09:12,720
Speaker 10: how we're all kind of stuck in the mindset of

2282
02:09:12,800 --> 02:09:16,160
Speaker 10: this twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen era and where

2283
02:09:16,160 --> 02:09:19,000
Speaker 10: we have this unwillingness to realize that that's not the

2284
02:09:19,160 --> 02:09:22,520
Speaker 10: political situation on the ground anymore. We are actually not

2285
02:09:22,800 --> 02:09:26,360
Speaker 10: in Charlottesville. This is a different situation. This is twenty

2286
02:09:26,400 --> 02:09:29,960
Speaker 10: twenty five. And one other like defense of this, you know,

2287
02:09:30,200 --> 02:09:34,200
Speaker 10: code hunting that I've seen people say is, quote, Nazis

2288
02:09:34,240 --> 02:09:36,720
Speaker 10: love playing games like this, so it's important that we

2289
02:09:36,920 --> 02:09:40,360
Speaker 10: call it out. And another person saying, quote, this is

2290
02:09:40,440 --> 02:09:42,680
Speaker 10: a fun little game for their group chats while they

2291
02:09:42,800 --> 02:09:45,520
Speaker 10: kill and disappear people, unquote, and like, first of all,

2292
02:09:46,120 --> 02:09:50,000
Speaker 10: this is not a game. This is actual people's lives

2293
02:09:50,240 --> 02:09:52,680
Speaker 10: are who are being deported, who are being sent to

2294
02:09:52,920 --> 02:09:55,840
Speaker 10: foreign prison camps. These are not games. And and I

2295
02:09:55,920 --> 02:10:00,360
Speaker 10: think that view of like anti fascist like education risks

2296
02:10:00,480 --> 02:10:04,480
Speaker 10: repeating like the Okay symbol debacle right where dog whistles

2297
02:10:04,560 --> 02:10:07,600
Speaker 10: end up being created or spread further due to this

2298
02:10:07,800 --> 02:10:11,880
Speaker 10: gamified version of like Easter egg anti fascism, It's kind

2299
02:10:11,880 --> 02:10:14,360
Speaker 10: of like the Barber streisand effect where you end up

2300
02:10:14,480 --> 02:10:18,879
Speaker 10: almost accidentally making them start doing the thing, which Nazis

2301
02:10:18,880 --> 02:10:23,120
Speaker 10: always have that like frustrating impulse because they're the little

2302
02:10:23,160 --> 02:10:26,480
Speaker 10: bitch boy ideology. I think as a rat, Limit put

2303
02:10:26,520 --> 02:10:29,120
Speaker 10: it one of one of my favorite posters, and like,

2304
02:10:29,400 --> 02:10:32,600
Speaker 10: I'm not saying that Nazi signposting should be ignored, but

2305
02:10:32,680 --> 02:10:36,000
Speaker 10: I think we should be thoughtful and careful of how

2306
02:10:36,040 --> 02:10:38,840
Speaker 10: we do it. To recap the Okay symbol thing that

2307
02:10:39,000 --> 02:10:41,960
Speaker 10: was invented as like a fake dog whistle to try

2308
02:10:42,000 --> 02:10:45,760
Speaker 10: to trick leftists into convincing like the media, and had

2309
02:10:45,800 --> 02:10:47,680
Speaker 10: then having the media trying to convinceate with people that

2310
02:10:47,800 --> 02:10:51,320
Speaker 10: anyone who uses like the okayhand symbol is secretly a fascist.

2311
02:10:51,600 --> 02:10:55,640
Speaker 10: And this scheme worked, and eventually the Oka symbol became

2312
02:10:55,680 --> 02:10:58,800
Speaker 10: an actual symbol used for fascists to identify each other

2313
02:10:59,040 --> 02:11:02,640
Speaker 10: through this ironic attachment because it was being talked about

2314
02:11:02,680 --> 02:11:04,680
Speaker 10: in the news as a secret Nazi symbol, even though

2315
02:11:04,720 --> 02:11:07,520
Speaker 10: this whole thing was like invented as like a joke online.

2316
02:11:08,880 --> 02:11:11,920
Speaker 10: And I'm afraid I've started to already see a similar

2317
02:11:12,000 --> 02:11:14,840
Speaker 10: thing happen with the fourteen words dog whistle, with an

2318
02:11:15,040 --> 02:11:18,879
Speaker 10: increased use of the fourteen words and invoking the fourteen

2319
02:11:18,960 --> 02:11:23,040
Speaker 10: words among far right accounts, specifically because of this whole

2320
02:11:23,200 --> 02:11:27,600
Speaker 10: debacle with the DHS gov account and there a heritage

2321
02:11:27,760 --> 02:11:31,360
Speaker 10: to be proud of, homeland worth defending American Progress like

2322
02:11:31,400 --> 02:11:36,480
Speaker 10: ethnonationalist posting. And I truly cannot say one way or

2323
02:11:36,520 --> 02:11:42,120
Speaker 10: another if that American Progress post had a intentionally embedded

2324
02:11:42,480 --> 02:11:46,520
Speaker 10: fourteen words dog whistle inside, I can't. I can't tell

2325
02:11:46,600 --> 02:11:48,760
Speaker 10: you that. And the point trying to make is that

2326
02:11:49,400 --> 02:11:53,880
Speaker 10: it kind of doesn't matter, but the way we talk

2327
02:11:53,960 --> 02:11:57,000
Speaker 10: about dog whistles does matter. And as frustrating as it

2328
02:11:57,160 --> 02:11:59,440
Speaker 10: is that sometimes this feels like we're just living in

2329
02:11:59,480 --> 02:12:01,880
Speaker 10: the meme where where the Nazi starts shaving his head

2330
02:12:01,920 --> 02:12:06,959
Speaker 10: because everyone's calling him a Nazi, that is how Nazis

2331
02:12:07,160 --> 02:12:09,600
Speaker 10: work sometimes. And I don't want to play into this

2332
02:12:09,880 --> 02:12:14,040
Speaker 10: attention spectacle that they so badly want. But you know

2333
02:12:14,120 --> 02:12:14,920
Speaker 10: what I do want right now?

2334
02:12:15,200 --> 02:12:17,200
Speaker 8: Is it the process and services that support this podcast.

2335
02:12:17,480 --> 02:12:20,880
Speaker 10: Another ad break, that's right, be sure to listen for

2336
02:12:21,160 --> 02:12:24,640
Speaker 10: the third and fourth hidden clue in these ads.

2337
02:12:35,640 --> 02:12:37,320
Speaker 2: All right, we are back to.

2338
02:12:37,400 --> 02:12:39,480
Speaker 8: Briefly take a small tangent here. I think there was

2339
02:12:39,520 --> 02:12:42,720
Speaker 8: something very important about like the fact that role stuck

2340
02:12:42,760 --> 02:12:44,920
Speaker 8: in twenty sixteen, which was sort of like the peak

2341
02:12:44,960 --> 02:12:47,760
Speaker 8: of irony right as a social affect has left us

2342
02:12:47,760 --> 02:12:50,920
Speaker 8: really unprepared for now where everything is just sort of like,

2343
02:12:51,800 --> 02:12:55,760
Speaker 8: you know, they're just doing it and saying it right, yeah,

2344
02:12:55,960 --> 02:12:58,960
Speaker 8: And it's not this sort of like irony pill deniability. Shit.

2345
02:12:59,000 --> 02:13:01,560
Speaker 8: They just do it and people are just not prepared

2346
02:13:01,600 --> 02:13:01,760
Speaker 8: for that.

2347
02:13:02,360 --> 02:13:04,800
Speaker 10: They're able to wage this war kind of on both fronts,

2348
02:13:05,280 --> 02:13:08,640
Speaker 10: and I think they are still pushing this. I'm going

2349
02:13:08,720 --> 02:13:12,200
Speaker 10: to quote from a friend of the pod rat Limit

2350
02:13:12,520 --> 02:13:16,880
Speaker 10: one of my favorite mutes quote prediction, the Nazi salute

2351
02:13:16,880 --> 02:13:19,480
Speaker 10: will become common within two years. Right wingers will half

2352
02:13:19,520 --> 02:13:23,760
Speaker 10: asset for plausible deniability, mimify the backlash, and then start

2353
02:13:23,800 --> 02:13:26,080
Speaker 10: fully doing it quote unquote as a joke to quote

2354
02:13:26,120 --> 02:13:29,720
Speaker 10: unquote troll the Libs for being hysterical enough to think

2355
02:13:29,800 --> 02:13:32,720
Speaker 10: that they were doing it in the first place. Fascism

2356
02:13:32,920 --> 02:13:35,640
Speaker 10: is a little bitch ideology because it's too timid to

2357
02:13:35,760 --> 02:13:37,920
Speaker 10: enact as cruelty until it can frame its cruelty as

2358
02:13:38,000 --> 02:13:42,600
Speaker 10: retaliation against others for anticipating it, and this has been

2359
02:13:42,760 --> 02:13:45,919
Speaker 10: proven right faster than I think what rat limit predicted.

2360
02:13:46,000 --> 02:13:48,920
Speaker 10: There's this current trend on x the Everything app where

2361
02:13:49,520 --> 02:13:56,200
Speaker 10: white girl aspiring influencers are doing Nazi style salutes and

2362
02:13:56,360 --> 02:14:00,640
Speaker 10: trying to mimify the backlash. Several posts going going viral

2363
02:14:00,760 --> 02:14:04,200
Speaker 10: of these. Of these like aspiring influencers either at the

2364
02:14:04,320 --> 02:14:07,800
Speaker 10: pool or cooking or doing laundry or walking your dog

2365
02:14:08,560 --> 02:14:11,640
Speaker 10: while having a your arm in a Elon Musk, my

2366
02:14:11,720 --> 02:14:15,080
Speaker 10: heart goes out to you Nazi salute style fashion. Yeah,

2367
02:14:15,640 --> 02:14:18,680
Speaker 10: and I think focusing media attention on someone like Musk

2368
02:14:18,800 --> 02:14:21,160
Speaker 10: doing a Nazi salute makes sense, right, he is like

2369
02:14:21,200 --> 02:14:25,000
Speaker 10: an actual person affiliated with the government. But making a

2370
02:14:25,040 --> 02:14:29,600
Speaker 10: whole media blitz about random blue check Twitter girls, maybe

2371
02:14:29,680 --> 02:14:32,520
Speaker 10: not so much. Maybe that doesn't have any actual value

2372
02:14:32,640 --> 02:14:37,440
Speaker 10: if a random like a random Twitter poster from Missouri

2373
02:14:37,600 --> 02:14:41,160
Speaker 10: is trying to garner backlash by doing a Hyle Hitler

2374
02:14:41,240 --> 02:14:43,320
Speaker 10: salute in their kitchen next to their instapot.

2375
02:14:44,320 --> 02:14:47,200
Speaker 8: I keep coming back to the thing that I wrote

2376
02:14:47,240 --> 02:14:49,880
Speaker 8: about the original Loss salute and about the ways that

2377
02:14:50,000 --> 02:14:53,680
Speaker 8: everyone you know, like one of the functions of capitalism

2378
02:14:53,760 --> 02:14:57,040
Speaker 8: is that everyone has been trained to experience the world

2379
02:14:57,120 --> 02:14:59,920
Speaker 8: and think in the image of action instead of like

2380
02:15:00,120 --> 02:15:03,440
Speaker 8: actually existing things. That's what I want to talk about next. Yeah, yeah,

2381
02:15:03,520 --> 02:15:04,400
Speaker 8: let's do this, Let's do this.

2382
02:15:04,520 --> 02:15:05,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, go for go for it.

2383
02:15:05,440 --> 02:15:05,480
Speaker 5: No.

2384
02:15:05,880 --> 02:15:09,120
Speaker 10: I think part of this focus on on on like

2385
02:15:09,560 --> 02:15:12,400
Speaker 10: these hidden codes and even just like these messages online

2386
02:15:13,120 --> 02:15:17,640
Speaker 10: is a liberal opposition to the aesthetics of deportation, but

2387
02:15:17,800 --> 02:15:21,640
Speaker 10: not necessarily the act itself. It's carrying out deportations in

2388
02:15:21,760 --> 02:15:26,720
Speaker 10: a mode that seems not in line with like neoliberal governing.

2389
02:15:27,200 --> 02:15:29,919
Speaker 10: And that's I think what a bunch of the backlash

2390
02:15:30,000 --> 02:15:32,200
Speaker 10: being focused on the aesthetics of the Trump administration, like

2391
02:15:32,240 --> 02:15:35,360
Speaker 10: how they film like gaudy ASMR videos that they post

2392
02:15:35,360 --> 02:15:38,720
Speaker 10: from the White House account of deportations and use military planes.

2393
02:15:39,080 --> 02:15:42,280
Speaker 10: Those are aesthetic differences, and those differences may be important,

2394
02:15:42,720 --> 02:15:45,040
Speaker 10: and they're they're bad, right, It's I'm not saying these

2395
02:15:45,080 --> 02:15:46,680
Speaker 10: things are good. Those things are still bad.

2396
02:15:46,800 --> 02:15:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2397
02:15:47,480 --> 02:15:51,320
Speaker 10: But when that gets focused on slightly more than just

2398
02:15:51,400 --> 02:15:54,400
Speaker 10: the pure acti deportation itself, that I think is evident

2399
02:15:54,600 --> 02:15:57,720
Speaker 10: of being trapped in this like capitalist realism, being trapped

2400
02:15:57,800 --> 02:16:01,200
Speaker 10: in this like like this neoliberal Yeah, the society of

2401
02:16:01,200 --> 02:16:04,800
Speaker 10: the spectacle exactly, right, let's like in June, Ice arrested

2402
02:16:04,960 --> 02:16:08,680
Speaker 10: thirty thousand people and did eighteen thousand deportations. In May

2403
02:16:08,760 --> 02:16:11,600
Speaker 10: it was twenty four thousand arrests in eighteen thousand deportations.

2404
02:16:12,200 --> 02:16:15,600
Speaker 10: Since February, the Trump admin has averaged about fourteen thousand

2405
02:16:15,600 --> 02:16:19,320
Speaker 10: and seven hundred deportations of month. The highest number of

2406
02:16:19,360 --> 02:16:25,680
Speaker 10: deportations ever was in twenty thirteen under Obama, averaging thirty

2407
02:16:25,760 --> 02:16:30,760
Speaker 10: six thousand a month. The Biden admin averaged almost thirteen thousand.

2408
02:16:31,640 --> 02:16:34,959
Speaker 10: When the Trump administration started using military planes for deportations

2409
02:16:35,320 --> 02:16:39,680
Speaker 10: back in January, mainly as an esthetic choice, that triggered

2410
02:16:39,800 --> 02:16:44,880
Speaker 10: backlash and rejections from Mexico and Colombia. Mexico refused to

2411
02:16:44,920 --> 02:16:48,040
Speaker 10: allow US military aircraft carrying deported migrants to land in

2412
02:16:48,080 --> 02:16:51,400
Speaker 10: their country. Colombia also barred two military planes full of migrants,

2413
02:16:51,440 --> 02:16:55,720
Speaker 10: but later caved as Trump threatened unitive tariffs. And you

2414
02:16:55,760 --> 02:16:58,280
Speaker 10: can see the same thing about deploying military to the border,

2415
02:16:58,400 --> 02:17:00,680
Speaker 10: something that Biden also did, but it has a larger

2416
02:17:00,760 --> 02:17:03,800
Speaker 10: aesthetic backlash under Trump. Do you have something you want

2417
02:17:03,840 --> 02:17:06,320
Speaker 10: to say on this like image aspect? I have some

2418
02:17:06,520 --> 02:17:08,600
Speaker 10: quotes from Fisher and that's kind of all I have left.

2419
02:17:09,200 --> 02:17:12,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean it is very fitting of our styles

2420
02:17:12,440 --> 02:17:14,400
Speaker 8: of politics that you're going to Fisher here and I'm

2421
02:17:14,440 --> 02:17:15,520
Speaker 8: going to Benjamin.

2422
02:17:15,800 --> 02:17:18,920
Speaker 10: Benjamin is quoted in these sections that Fisher is pulling

2423
02:17:18,959 --> 02:17:19,440
Speaker 10: from as well.

2424
02:17:19,680 --> 02:17:22,720
Speaker 8: Yep, yep. So I'll go into the source. I'm not

2425
02:17:22,840 --> 02:17:28,760
Speaker 8: going through the fucking cru bullshit like pop marks, this

2426
02:17:29,320 --> 02:17:34,360
Speaker 8: bourmois running doc. But no, but like, you know, like

2427
02:17:34,440 --> 02:17:36,960
Speaker 8: one of the things that that Walter Benjamin, who people

2428
02:17:37,400 --> 02:17:41,200
Speaker 8: genuinely really should read. He's one of the great original

2429
02:17:41,240 --> 02:17:44,720
Speaker 8: theorists of fascism, and he fucking died trying to flee

2430
02:17:44,760 --> 02:17:48,800
Speaker 8: the Nazis. And one of his arguments was that, you know,

2431
02:17:49,280 --> 02:17:51,920
Speaker 8: one of the cores of fascism is the replacement of

2432
02:17:52,120 --> 02:17:56,040
Speaker 8: politics with aesthetics, Right, that aesthetics would allow you to

2433
02:17:56,640 --> 02:18:01,280
Speaker 8: you know, feels like feel representations of do the action.

2434
02:18:01,879 --> 02:18:03,680
Speaker 8: And this is this is an analysis that has been

2435
02:18:03,720 --> 02:18:07,640
Speaker 8: sort of like folded through a whole bunch of different

2436
02:18:07,680 --> 02:18:10,160
Speaker 8: analyzes of how capitalism functions. Right, this is this is

2437
02:18:10,200 --> 02:18:12,080
Speaker 8: one of the three lines of the society a spectacle,

2438
02:18:12,440 --> 02:18:14,880
Speaker 8: and it's this real issue that we're dealing with now

2439
02:18:14,920 --> 02:18:18,280
Speaker 8: because again kind of in a sense, what has happened

2440
02:18:18,720 --> 02:18:22,200
Speaker 8: to everything right, And you can argue to some extent

2441
02:18:22,240 --> 02:18:25,640
Speaker 8: that like our channel being called cool zone Media is

2442
02:18:25,760 --> 02:18:29,480
Speaker 8: sort of this is that all politics from every side

2443
02:18:29,520 --> 02:18:32,240
Speaker 8: has been completely reduced to aesthetics. And completely reducing it

2444
02:18:32,280 --> 02:18:35,680
Speaker 8: to aesthetics allows like allows the fascist mode of politics

2445
02:18:35,720 --> 02:18:38,000
Speaker 8: to simply draw in a bunch of people who can

2446
02:18:38,080 --> 02:18:42,000
Speaker 8: sort of just now passively experience living through these sort

2447
02:18:42,040 --> 02:18:43,560
Speaker 8: of through this sort of collection of images and this

2448
02:18:43,640 --> 02:18:46,640
Speaker 8: emotional aesthetic. Yeah, and it also is doing the same

2449
02:18:46,720 --> 02:18:48,680
Speaker 8: thing to us. But the thing is they have the

2450
02:18:48,760 --> 02:18:51,640
Speaker 8: fucking state and we don't, right, And so if you

2451
02:18:51,720 --> 02:18:53,840
Speaker 8: don't fucking exit, if you don't exit the sort of

2452
02:18:53,920 --> 02:18:57,280
Speaker 8: mirror world of esthetic of sort of like of fucking

2453
02:18:57,400 --> 02:19:00,960
Speaker 8: living in images, right, and you know, go do the

2454
02:19:01,000 --> 02:19:02,560
Speaker 8: actual shit that the board is talking about in the

2455
02:19:02,600 --> 02:19:04,720
Speaker 8: society a spectacle. Were you when all your friends formed

2456
02:19:04,720 --> 02:19:07,480
Speaker 8: workers councils and fucking start taking all of the ship

2457
02:19:07,600 --> 02:19:09,600
Speaker 8: back from all of the people who were taking it

2458
02:19:09,680 --> 02:19:12,120
Speaker 8: from you, You're just gonna live in the fascist nightmare forever.

2459
02:19:12,240 --> 02:19:13,960
Speaker 10: I mean, you could look at the union resistance to

2460
02:19:14,160 --> 02:19:17,160
Speaker 10: icedy iportations, specifically in LA with russaurant workers that it's

2461
02:19:17,360 --> 02:19:19,840
Speaker 10: literally doing that and like I would argue, like now,

2462
02:19:20,720 --> 02:19:23,800
Speaker 10: it's not so much that fascism is politics as athetics,

2463
02:19:23,879 --> 02:19:27,200
Speaker 10: but especially now, it is an aestheticized politics. And you

2464
02:19:27,280 --> 02:19:29,520
Speaker 10: can even see that in so far as its focuses

2465
02:19:29,600 --> 02:19:32,440
Speaker 10: on you know, like race and like ethnic purity, like

2466
02:19:32,520 --> 02:19:36,640
Speaker 10: blood and soil. That's why they're posting American progress driving

2467
02:19:36,680 --> 02:19:40,800
Speaker 10: out the indigenous people with the aryan white lady carrying

2468
02:19:40,920 --> 02:19:44,160
Speaker 10: the torch of progress. It is an aestheticized politics on

2469
02:19:44,240 --> 02:19:47,480
Speaker 10: like a very pure level. And again, to quote from

2470
02:19:47,680 --> 02:19:53,720
Speaker 10: my goat, uh this antigoat quote Mark Fisher in captust

2471
02:19:53,760 --> 02:19:59,040
Speaker 10: Realism quote, ultra authoritarianism and capital are by no means incompatible.

2472
02:19:59,440 --> 02:20:04,040
Speaker 10: In tournament Camp's enfranchise coffee bars co exist, neoliberals, the

2473
02:20:04,120 --> 02:20:07,800
Speaker 10: capitalist realists par excellence have celebrated the destruction of public space,

2474
02:20:07,879 --> 02:20:10,800
Speaker 10: but contrary to their official hopes, there is no withering

2475
02:20:10,879 --> 02:20:13,120
Speaker 10: away of the state, only a stripping back of the

2476
02:20:13,200 --> 02:20:17,760
Speaker 10: state to its core military and police functions. Unquote. This

2477
02:20:17,879 --> 02:20:20,400
Speaker 10: is very similar to something that me and Mia talked

2478
02:20:20,440 --> 02:20:23,160
Speaker 10: about right as Trump got elected, in terms of the

2479
02:20:23,240 --> 02:20:26,000
Speaker 10: state becoming more removed but hostile.

2480
02:20:26,480 --> 02:20:29,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, although although I see again I disagree official here

2481
02:20:29,320 --> 02:20:31,120
Speaker 8: because the neo liberals understood what they were doing to

2482
02:20:31,160 --> 02:20:32,920
Speaker 8: begin with. They were never trying to wither the state away.

2483
02:20:32,959 --> 02:20:34,920
Speaker 8: That was just the lies that they told the fucking

2484
02:20:35,000 --> 02:20:38,040
Speaker 8: basses Like sure, I mean that's what contrary to their

2485
02:20:38,120 --> 02:20:43,199
Speaker 8: official Yeah, yeah, and it's like you know, quote, such.

2486
02:20:43,000 --> 02:20:46,280
Speaker 10: A blight can only be eased by an intervention that

2487
02:20:46,440 --> 02:20:49,640
Speaker 10: can be no more anticipated than was the onset of

2488
02:20:49,720 --> 02:20:53,080
Speaker 10: the curse in the first place. Action is pointless, only senseless.

2489
02:20:53,240 --> 02:20:57,400
Speaker 10: Hope makes sense. Superstition and religion the first resorts the

2490
02:20:57,480 --> 02:21:02,480
Speaker 10: helpless proliferate unquote. This is part of what I conceptualize

2491
02:21:02,480 --> 02:21:04,520
Speaker 10: as this code hunting is almost a form of this

2492
02:21:04,720 --> 02:21:09,680
Speaker 10: hopeless superstition. To continue quote, the catastrophe is neither waiting

2493
02:21:09,760 --> 02:21:12,440
Speaker 10: down the road, nor has it already happened. Rather, it

2494
02:21:12,600 --> 02:21:15,880
Speaker 10: is being lived through. There is no punctual moment of disaster.

2495
02:21:16,000 --> 02:21:19,480
Speaker 10: The world doesn't end with a bang. It winks out, unravels,

2496
02:21:19,680 --> 02:21:23,680
Speaker 10: gradually falls apart. What caused the catastrophe to occur? Who

2497
02:21:23,800 --> 02:21:27,200
Speaker 10: knows its cause? Lies long in the past, so absolutely

2498
02:21:27,240 --> 02:21:29,920
Speaker 10: detached from the present as to seem like the caprice

2499
02:21:30,040 --> 02:21:34,120
Speaker 10: of a maligned being, a negative miracle, a melidation which

2500
02:21:34,200 --> 02:21:38,279
Speaker 10: no penance can ameliorate the turn from belief to aesthetics,

2501
02:21:38,520 --> 02:21:42,280
Speaker 10: from engagement to spectatorship is held to be one of

2502
02:21:42,400 --> 02:21:46,480
Speaker 10: the virtues of capitalist realism unquote. And yeah, that's what

2503
02:21:46,600 --> 02:21:49,160
Speaker 10: me is talking about with Gidebor and society of the spectacle.

2504
02:21:49,720 --> 02:21:51,840
Speaker 10: That's a trap that I think a lot of people

2505
02:21:51,879 --> 02:21:56,640
Speaker 10: are falling into right now. And though it's arguable that

2506
02:21:56,840 --> 02:22:02,000
Speaker 10: living in a liberal contradiction may be preferable to fascist authoritarianism,

2507
02:22:02,480 --> 02:22:05,480
Speaker 10: that stullsn't mean it's like good, right, That's not what

2508
02:22:05,560 --> 02:22:09,480
Speaker 10: we're arguing here. Fisher then quotes French philosopher Alawn Badu

2509
02:22:09,840 --> 02:22:13,480
Speaker 10: quote to justify their conservatism. The partisans of the established

2510
02:22:13,560 --> 02:22:17,080
Speaker 10: order cannot really call it ideal or wonderful, so instead

2511
02:22:17,480 --> 02:22:20,800
Speaker 10: they've decided to say that all of the rest is horrible. Sure,

2512
02:22:21,080 --> 02:22:23,840
Speaker 10: they say, we may not live in a condition of

2513
02:22:23,959 --> 02:22:26,600
Speaker 10: perfect goodness, but we are lucky that we don't live

2514
02:22:26,680 --> 02:22:29,480
Speaker 10: in a condition of evil. Our democracy is not perfect,

2515
02:22:29,720 --> 02:22:33,640
Speaker 10: but it's better than bloody dictatorships. Capitalism is unjust, but

2516
02:22:33,760 --> 02:22:37,279
Speaker 10: it's not criminal like Stalinism. We let millions of Africans

2517
02:22:37,360 --> 02:22:41,000
Speaker 10: die of AIDS, but we don't make racist nationalist declarations

2518
02:22:41,120 --> 02:22:44,640
Speaker 10: like Lamosovich. We kill Iraqis with our airplanes, but we

2519
02:22:44,720 --> 02:22:47,000
Speaker 10: don't cut their throats with machetes like they do in

2520
02:22:47,120 --> 02:22:51,800
Speaker 10: Rwanda unquote. And already parts of this are slightly outdated.

2521
02:22:51,959 --> 02:22:52,879
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, because.

2522
02:22:54,360 --> 02:22:58,160
Speaker 10: Now, But this is the thing is both are tragedies

2523
02:22:58,200 --> 02:23:00,720
Speaker 10: where millions people die, right. One of them is through

2524
02:23:00,760 --> 02:23:03,960
Speaker 10: the aesthetics of neoliberalism. The other one is through asthetics

2525
02:23:04,000 --> 02:23:08,000
Speaker 10: of racist nationalistic declarations, which the Trump administration is currently

2526
02:23:08,040 --> 02:23:10,560
Speaker 10: playing with. That is what they decided to do. Yeah,

2527
02:23:10,720 --> 02:23:14,040
Speaker 10: and so the reaction to it is on this aesthetic note,

2528
02:23:14,400 --> 02:23:19,279
Speaker 10: not necessarily on this pure actual humanistic opposition to deportations

2529
02:23:19,320 --> 02:23:21,600
Speaker 10: as a process that is inhumane that we should not

2530
02:23:21,680 --> 02:23:22,360
Speaker 10: allow at all.

2531
02:23:23,080 --> 02:23:25,680
Speaker 8: Yeah. I see the logic of this all the fucking time,

2532
02:23:25,760 --> 02:23:27,400
Speaker 8: talking to people where like we'll be like, okay, like

2533
02:23:27,480 --> 02:23:29,840
Speaker 8: no deportations, and then you get a whole bunch of

2534
02:23:29,879 --> 02:23:32,000
Speaker 8: people being like, wow, but what about criminals just like

2535
02:23:32,200 --> 02:23:35,480
Speaker 8: some some deportation? What do is this is the structural

2536
02:23:35,640 --> 02:23:39,119
Speaker 8: logic of the original like deportation blitz from Trump.

2537
02:23:38,959 --> 02:23:41,080
Speaker 10: Creating a class of undesirables that you can then always

2538
02:23:41,080 --> 02:23:42,920
Speaker 10: add to and press the border on. Like what Karl

2539
02:23:42,959 --> 02:23:45,600
Speaker 10: Schmid talks about this is the structural logic of fascism. Yeah,

2540
02:23:45,600 --> 02:23:49,240
Speaker 10: but everyone everyone thinks about deportations this way now, and

2541
02:23:49,360 --> 02:23:51,680
Speaker 10: they're mad that Trump is doing it and not Biden.

2542
02:23:52,240 --> 02:23:55,080
Speaker 10: But you know, until people actually break through the sort

2543
02:23:55,120 --> 02:23:59,640
Speaker 10: of pure opposition to the aesthetics and actually start, you know,

2544
02:24:00,840 --> 02:24:03,400
Speaker 10: having a kind of totalizing opposition to the system that

2545
02:24:03,560 --> 02:24:05,520
Speaker 10: is doing this, we're just going to be stuck here.

2546
02:24:06,280 --> 02:24:08,240
Speaker 10: And this is I think one of the limits of

2547
02:24:09,040 --> 02:24:13,320
Speaker 10: using anti fascism as this like aesthetic code hunting, is

2548
02:24:13,360 --> 02:24:17,480
Speaker 10: because a few days ago, the ths posted a Woody

2549
02:24:17,560 --> 02:24:21,199
Speaker 10: Guthrie song, his song America the Beautiful, with the DHS

2550
02:24:21,280 --> 02:24:24,480
Speaker 10: posting the promise of America is worth protecting the future

2551
02:24:24,600 --> 02:24:27,920
Speaker 10: of our homeland is worth defending. Notably, everyone in this

2552
02:24:28,080 --> 02:24:31,000
Speaker 10: video is all white people, which this sentiment is the

2553
02:24:31,120 --> 02:24:35,320
Speaker 10: same thing as the fourteen words, except it has fifteen words,

2554
02:24:35,400 --> 02:24:39,080
Speaker 10: so therefore not a Nazi dog whistle. We're safe, guys,

2555
02:24:39,160 --> 02:24:41,800
Speaker 10: we're good. I counted the words. There's fifteen of them,

2556
02:24:42,120 --> 02:24:45,240
Speaker 10: so you can disregard what the actual text is saying.

2557
02:24:45,640 --> 02:24:49,520
Speaker 10: And I think that is like the prime the prime

2558
02:24:49,600 --> 02:24:54,320
Speaker 10: contradiction in which I am growing increasingly frustrated So that's

2559
02:24:54,440 --> 02:24:57,440
Speaker 10: most of what I have to say about the limits

2560
02:24:57,440 --> 02:25:02,560
Speaker 10: of Nazi code hunting and the the aesthetics of superstition

2561
02:25:02,720 --> 02:25:05,960
Speaker 10: and the paranoid style in American politics. Mia, do you

2562
02:25:06,000 --> 02:25:08,560
Speaker 10: have any any final wise notes?

2563
02:25:09,200 --> 02:25:12,080
Speaker 8: The time for Nazi code hunting, if there ever was one,

2564
02:25:12,280 --> 02:25:16,600
Speaker 8: has passed. It is now time to end the episode

2565
02:25:16,640 --> 02:25:17,000
Speaker 8: right here.

2566
02:25:17,640 --> 02:25:18,040
Speaker 2: That's right.

2567
02:25:18,120 --> 02:25:21,280
Speaker 10: It is related for anything. Oh and if you were

2568
02:25:21,280 --> 02:25:23,840
Speaker 10: able to decode the hidden message in the ad break,

2569
02:25:24,480 --> 02:25:27,880
Speaker 10: send the contents of the message via email to your

2570
02:25:27,920 --> 02:25:30,440
Speaker 10: local congressman to redeem your prize.

2571
02:25:30,920 --> 02:25:31,320
Speaker 2: Bye bye.

2572
02:25:49,560 --> 02:25:52,600
Speaker 10: This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly

2573
02:25:52,680 --> 02:25:55,640
Speaker 10: newscast covering what is happening in the White House, the

2574
02:25:55,680 --> 02:25:57,960
Speaker 10: crumbling world what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis.

2575
02:25:58,040 --> 02:26:01,200
Speaker 10: This episode, I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Tout, and

2576
02:26:01,320 --> 02:26:06,879
Speaker 10: Robert Evans. Were covering the week of July thirtieth August seventh. Robert,

2577
02:26:06,959 --> 02:26:07,800
Speaker 10: what is Texas?

2578
02:26:08,280 --> 02:26:12,200
Speaker 2: So the original root word of the state's name is Tejas,

2579
02:26:12,280 --> 02:26:15,080
Speaker 2: which means friendship, a thing that no one in Texas

2580
02:26:15,160 --> 02:26:18,040
Speaker 2: has ever known because it's the angriest meana state in

2581
02:26:18,160 --> 02:26:19,840
Speaker 2: the country. That's that's Texas.

2582
02:26:19,959 --> 02:26:22,480
Speaker 10: Garrison up for some stiff competition these days, for some

2583
02:26:22,600 --> 02:26:23,440
Speaker 10: stiff competition.

2584
02:26:23,600 --> 02:26:25,520
Speaker 8: But it's still it's still holding out, isn't it.

2585
02:26:25,720 --> 02:26:27,600
Speaker 4: Everything's bigger in Texas Garrison.

2586
02:26:27,760 --> 02:26:31,320
Speaker 2: It's it's famed as being the second or third worst

2587
02:26:31,440 --> 02:26:35,760
Speaker 2: state that borders New Mexico. So you know, rarefied company.

2588
02:26:36,400 --> 02:26:38,959
Speaker 2: Really it can compete with all of the states bordering

2589
02:26:39,000 --> 02:26:42,320
Speaker 2: New Mexico except for Colorado. But the state's bordering New

2590
02:26:42,360 --> 02:26:46,240
Speaker 2: Mexico except for Colorado are Oklahoma and Arizona and Texas,

2591
02:26:46,520 --> 02:26:48,440
Speaker 2: so not high bars.

2592
02:26:48,800 --> 02:26:51,880
Speaker 4: Texas has some of the finest abt and breakfasts that

2593
02:26:52,000 --> 02:26:54,520
Speaker 4: I've ever stayed in, that's right, including one with a

2594
02:26:54,760 --> 02:26:56,119
Speaker 4: deeply disturbing basement.

2595
02:26:56,320 --> 02:26:59,360
Speaker 2: Okay, just because they had one torture based on James.

2596
02:26:59,640 --> 02:27:03,000
Speaker 2: So we're talking about Texas right now because a bunch

2597
02:27:03,080 --> 02:27:07,640
Speaker 2: of the Democratic state legislators just fled the state for Illinois,

2598
02:27:08,000 --> 02:27:08,400
Speaker 2: I believe.

2599
02:27:08,520 --> 02:27:11,199
Speaker 4: Is how the name of the state has pronounced yea French.

2600
02:27:11,240 --> 02:27:12,280
Speaker 2: It's French. It's French.

2601
02:27:12,680 --> 02:27:18,600
Speaker 8: Fact check for a real illinoisan wrongsupposed fact checks by

2602
02:27:18,680 --> 02:27:19,520
Speaker 8: really annoyance.

2603
02:27:20,320 --> 02:27:23,640
Speaker 2: So when you've got a legislature of pretty much any type,

2604
02:27:23,640 --> 02:27:25,520
Speaker 2: at least in the US I'm sure there's other countries

2605
02:27:25,560 --> 02:27:27,240
Speaker 2: that don't do it this way. But you need what's

2606
02:27:27,280 --> 02:27:29,880
Speaker 2: called a quorum in order to actually do anything, which

2607
02:27:29,959 --> 02:27:33,520
Speaker 2: means of the total number of elected members of the legislature,

2608
02:27:33,600 --> 02:27:37,440
Speaker 2: you need a certain number of them. Otherwise you can't

2609
02:27:37,600 --> 02:27:40,840
Speaker 2: like do anything because there's not enough people there in

2610
02:27:41,040 --> 02:27:44,120
Speaker 2: order to actually have it be a valid vote. And

2611
02:27:44,360 --> 02:27:46,200
Speaker 2: I probably don't have to explain the reasonings why. There's

2612
02:27:46,200 --> 02:27:48,160
Speaker 2: some pretty obvious reasons why you'd want it to work

2613
02:27:48,200 --> 02:27:51,800
Speaker 2: this way. But there are, however, some downsides to it.

2614
02:27:51,920 --> 02:27:54,640
Speaker 2: You know, potentially you can be depending on whether or

2615
02:27:54,680 --> 02:27:56,760
Speaker 2: not your side is doing it. It's a downside or

2616
02:27:56,800 --> 02:28:00,320
Speaker 2: an upside, right, which is that if you have a

2617
02:28:00,560 --> 02:28:03,800
Speaker 2: side that is the minority in the government and they

2618
02:28:03,959 --> 02:28:07,480
Speaker 2: don't want a vote to go through, they can just bounce.

2619
02:28:08,080 --> 02:28:10,320
Speaker 2: And if they bounce at the right time, before the

2620
02:28:10,400 --> 02:28:13,080
Speaker 2: legislature has been called and like no one's there, then

2621
02:28:13,120 --> 02:28:15,840
Speaker 2: you can't get a quorum and nothing can get done.

2622
02:28:16,440 --> 02:28:19,960
Speaker 2: And this is big news right now because in order

2623
02:28:20,040 --> 02:28:24,320
Speaker 2: to stop a redistricting vote, a bunch of Democratic legislators

2624
02:28:24,360 --> 02:28:26,120
Speaker 2: have fled. But this is a thing that has been

2625
02:28:26,200 --> 02:28:29,320
Speaker 2: going on for well over a century. And it is

2626
02:28:29,400 --> 02:28:32,640
Speaker 2: a thing that both sides of the aisle have engaged

2627
02:28:32,720 --> 02:28:36,720
Speaker 2: in with substantial regularity. I'm not an expert on any

2628
02:28:36,800 --> 02:28:40,520
Speaker 2: of this. The earliest example I can find if anyone

2629
02:28:40,680 --> 02:28:42,720
Speaker 2: doing this is in Texas. And I'm not saying that

2630
02:28:42,800 --> 02:28:44,640
Speaker 2: means it's the earliest example of anyone in the US

2631
02:28:44,760 --> 02:28:47,600
Speaker 2: doing this, But the earliest example I found in my

2632
02:28:47,959 --> 02:28:51,440
Speaker 2: research was from eighteen seventy. So there's an article on

2633
02:28:51,520 --> 02:28:54,760
Speaker 2: this in that by the Texas State Historical Association called

2634
02:28:54,879 --> 02:28:58,200
Speaker 2: understanding the rump Senate of the twelfth Texas Legislature, and

2635
02:28:58,280 --> 02:29:01,360
Speaker 2: the rump Senate is a term applied to the fifteen

2636
02:29:01,840 --> 02:29:06,000
Speaker 2: radical Republican members of the twelfth Texas Legislature who fled

2637
02:29:06,040 --> 02:29:08,640
Speaker 2: in eighteen seventy to stop a vote on a militia bill.

2638
02:29:08,800 --> 02:29:12,440
Speaker 2: And this bill gave the governor power to declare martial law.

2639
02:29:12,760 --> 02:29:15,920
Speaker 2: It gave him the power to establish a state police force.

2640
02:29:16,440 --> 02:29:18,480
Speaker 2: It increased the appointed power of the governor.

2641
02:29:18,520 --> 02:29:20,880
Speaker 4: A bunch of stuff that's not all that interesting to

2642
02:29:21,000 --> 02:29:24,520
Speaker 4: us today because governors, like every state does this today,

2643
02:29:24,680 --> 02:29:28,360
Speaker 4: right Like there's state police everywhere. Every state governor has

2644
02:29:28,400 --> 02:29:30,440
Speaker 4: the power to call a militia, you know, a national

2645
02:29:30,480 --> 02:29:31,640
Speaker 4: guard or whatever. Like.

2646
02:29:31,760 --> 02:29:34,520
Speaker 2: This is not controversial today, but it was back then.

2647
02:29:34,600 --> 02:29:36,600
Speaker 2: And it's important that I note that while it was

2648
02:29:36,720 --> 02:29:41,520
Speaker 2: fifteen radical Republicans who fled in eighteen seventy, those were conservatives, right,

2649
02:29:41,680 --> 02:29:46,360
Speaker 2: Like the radical Republicans were conservatives in eighteen seventy. Right,

2650
02:29:46,480 --> 02:29:48,680
Speaker 2: So this is this is kind of a reverse if

2651
02:29:48,720 --> 02:29:50,560
Speaker 2: you're just sort of looking at things from a liberal

2652
02:29:50,680 --> 02:29:52,800
Speaker 2: or conservative point of view. This is kind of a

2653
02:29:52,840 --> 02:29:56,520
Speaker 2: reversal of what's happening right now in Texas, although it's

2654
02:29:56,560 --> 02:29:58,680
Speaker 2: happened a lot of other times since. Right, So this

2655
02:29:58,800 --> 02:30:03,080
Speaker 2: is eighteen seventy. Should note it didn't succeed, right. This is, however,

2656
02:30:03,240 --> 02:30:05,960
Speaker 2: one of the fairly rare times when this kind of

2657
02:30:06,040 --> 02:30:09,120
Speaker 2: thing happens. If it goes on long enough, every time,

2658
02:30:09,360 --> 02:30:12,520
Speaker 2: the governor basically will declare an arrest warrant for the

2659
02:30:12,600 --> 02:30:15,760
Speaker 2: legislators who have left, And as a general rule, this

2660
02:30:15,959 --> 02:30:18,560
Speaker 2: does nothing, right, Like, the governor has the ability to

2661
02:30:18,680 --> 02:30:20,760
Speaker 2: find them a certain amount per day, and it has

2662
02:30:20,800 --> 02:30:22,879
Speaker 2: the ability to call out an arrest warrant, but it's

2663
02:30:22,879 --> 02:30:25,560
Speaker 2: not like a real arrest warrant, like if you murder

2664
02:30:25,640 --> 02:30:28,680
Speaker 2: a guy and then lead to another state an arrest

2665
02:30:28,760 --> 02:30:31,920
Speaker 2: warrant will be issued that law enforcement in that state

2666
02:30:32,080 --> 02:30:35,560
Speaker 2: has to abide by. Right because you murdered somebody, this

2667
02:30:35,800 --> 02:30:38,160
Speaker 2: is not a real crime. Basically, if you flee back,

2668
02:30:38,280 --> 02:30:40,720
Speaker 2: if you wind up back in the state that you left,

2669
02:30:41,360 --> 02:30:45,040
Speaker 2: you can be taken into custody by law enforcement in

2670
02:30:45,160 --> 02:30:47,400
Speaker 2: the state, but they can't leave the state to get you.

2671
02:30:48,000 --> 02:30:50,160
Speaker 2: And almost I would say, like ninety percent of the

2672
02:30:50,240 --> 02:30:53,039
Speaker 2: time when something like this happens, nobody actually gets arrested. However,

2673
02:30:53,080 --> 02:30:56,880
Speaker 2: in eighteen seventy several Conservative members were held under arrest

2674
02:30:56,920 --> 02:31:00,320
Speaker 2: for like three weeks until the Senate could pass the legislation. So,

2675
02:31:01,080 --> 02:31:03,600
Speaker 2: as is usually the case, whenever stuff like this happens,

2676
02:31:04,000 --> 02:31:08,320
Speaker 2: it only succeeded in kind of delaying the inevitable. It

2677
02:31:08,400 --> 02:31:11,800
Speaker 2: didn't succeed in actually stopping things. And this has happened

2678
02:31:11,800 --> 02:31:15,720
Speaker 2: a number of times in Texas, most recently Texas Democratic

2679
02:31:15,840 --> 02:31:19,039
Speaker 2: lawmakers broke quorum in twenty twenty one. And I want

2680
02:31:19,080 --> 02:31:22,200
Speaker 2: to quote here from an article in ABC News. Quote

2681
02:31:22,280 --> 02:31:25,320
Speaker 2: Texas state lawmakers left Brookquarran twenty twenty one when Democratic

2682
02:31:25,400 --> 02:31:29,040
Speaker 2: House representatives fled Texas to prevent measures restricting voting options.

2683
02:31:29,280 --> 02:31:32,440
Speaker 2: The measures eventually passed after internal democratic fissures led to

2684
02:31:32,560 --> 02:31:36,920
Speaker 2: enough representatives returning to form a quorum. And this is

2685
02:31:36,959 --> 02:31:39,920
Speaker 2: the kind of thing where Governor Abbott allowed the Sergeant

2686
02:31:40,000 --> 02:31:42,480
Speaker 2: of Arms or commanded the Sergeant of Arms to arrest

2687
02:31:42,520 --> 02:31:45,680
Speaker 2: the members within Texas. Weirdly enough, a couple of them

2688
02:31:45,760 --> 02:31:50,280
Speaker 2: did return. The first was Philip Cortes, who briefly came

2689
02:31:50,360 --> 02:31:53,040
Speaker 2: back to Austin to handle personal business and there was

2690
02:31:53,080 --> 02:31:55,280
Speaker 2: a civil arrest warrant signed, but then he fled the

2691
02:31:55,360 --> 02:31:59,160
Speaker 2: state again before he could be arrested. There were warrant

2692
02:31:59,200 --> 02:32:02,840
Speaker 2: signed for the fifty two remaining absent legislators, but law

2693
02:32:02,879 --> 02:32:07,760
Speaker 2: enforcement didn't arrest or detain anybody. Eventually, enough democratic legislators

2694
02:32:07,800 --> 02:32:10,520
Speaker 2: came back into the state for like personal reasons. Some

2695
02:32:10,640 --> 02:32:12,959
Speaker 2: of them had like shit to handle, like in their

2696
02:32:13,000 --> 02:32:16,040
Speaker 2: own life. Some of them had other things they wanted

2697
02:32:16,080 --> 02:32:18,400
Speaker 2: to push through in terms of like legislature, and so

2698
02:32:18,720 --> 02:32:20,879
Speaker 2: they were like, I guess I'll come back and let

2699
02:32:20,920 --> 02:32:24,520
Speaker 2: this happen. And eventually the House reached quorum. And this

2700
02:32:24,760 --> 02:32:27,560
Speaker 2: past Democrats did not face the five hundred dollars a

2701
02:32:27,680 --> 02:32:29,960
Speaker 2: day fine that they'd been threatened by the governor, and

2702
02:32:30,080 --> 02:32:33,640
Speaker 2: nobody was arrested. Now, I've been talking about Texas here,

2703
02:32:33,760 --> 02:32:36,000
Speaker 2: but this happens all over the place. In fact, when

2704
02:32:36,040 --> 02:32:38,480
Speaker 2: this story first broke, the immediate thing I thought back

2705
02:32:38,560 --> 02:32:42,240
Speaker 2: on was what happened very recently in the state of Oregon,

2706
02:32:42,320 --> 02:32:44,400
Speaker 2: and has happened a couple of times in the state

2707
02:32:44,480 --> 02:32:45,039
Speaker 2: of Oregon.

2708
02:32:45,200 --> 02:32:46,520
Speaker 8: You know it was mine too. They do this all

2709
02:32:46,560 --> 02:32:48,640
Speaker 8: the time, They do this a lot.

2710
02:32:49,120 --> 02:32:53,800
Speaker 2: But yes, this is a common thing in Oregon. It

2711
02:32:53,920 --> 02:32:56,680
Speaker 2: has started, and this is both parties have done this.

2712
02:32:56,879 --> 02:32:59,800
Speaker 2: I should note right, both Democrats and Republicans in Oregon,

2713
02:33:00,200 --> 02:33:02,119
Speaker 2: as in Texas, have done walkouts.

2714
02:33:02,240 --> 02:33:03,600
Speaker 8: They don't even have to leave the state.

2715
02:33:04,240 --> 02:33:06,360
Speaker 2: They don't even have to leave the state, although they

2716
02:33:06,440 --> 02:33:09,040
Speaker 2: have recently. This seems to have started an Oregon I

2717
02:33:09,080 --> 02:33:11,680
Speaker 2: think in the nineteen seventies. There's actually a really good

2718
02:33:11,840 --> 02:33:14,959
Speaker 2: article that's like an overview of a bunch of different

2719
02:33:15,000 --> 02:33:20,000
Speaker 2: states history of doing this in Oregon Central Oregon Daily News,

2720
02:33:20,440 --> 02:33:22,600
Speaker 2: although it's an ap Press article, so I guess Central

2721
02:33:22,600 --> 02:33:27,080
Speaker 2: Oregon Daily just is licensing this thing. But anyway, in Oregon,

2722
02:33:27,400 --> 02:33:31,040
Speaker 2: the most recent case of this happening was in twenty

2723
02:33:31,120 --> 02:33:34,600
Speaker 2: twenty three, after Republicans staged a six week boycott, which

2724
02:33:34,600 --> 02:33:37,600
Speaker 2: is the longest so far in Oregon legislature history, over

2725
02:33:37,800 --> 02:33:40,119
Speaker 2: a rule a law of the Democratic Party was pushing

2726
02:33:40,200 --> 02:33:42,800
Speaker 2: to protect abortion rights and the right to gender firming

2727
02:33:42,879 --> 02:33:46,600
Speaker 2: care for transgender people. This again did not succeed. This

2728
02:33:46,920 --> 02:33:51,200
Speaker 2: was passed in the legislature and there were actually some consequences,

2729
02:33:51,240 --> 02:33:53,800
Speaker 2: although it hasn't been enough time to see how serious

2730
02:33:53,840 --> 02:33:56,680
Speaker 2: there will be. Because there was a different GOP walkout

2731
02:33:56,720 --> 02:34:01,119
Speaker 2: over climate change legislation which also failed in twenty twenty two,

2732
02:34:01,680 --> 02:34:04,920
Speaker 2: and as a result of that twenty twenty two walk out,

2733
02:34:05,120 --> 02:34:07,720
Speaker 2: voters approved an amendment to the state constitution in Oregon

2734
02:34:07,760 --> 02:34:10,560
Speaker 2: which barred lawmakers from getting re elected if they had

2735
02:34:10,600 --> 02:34:14,600
Speaker 2: more than ten unexcused absences in a single annual legislative session.

2736
02:34:14,920 --> 02:34:17,080
Speaker 2: And as a result of the walkout the next year

2737
02:34:17,320 --> 02:34:21,040
Speaker 2: over abortion rights and gender firming care, ten Oregon Republican

2738
02:34:21,120 --> 02:34:25,119
Speaker 2: lawmakers were barred from seeking re election again. As I stated,

2739
02:34:25,160 --> 02:34:29,080
Speaker 2: this is something that very rarely actually does anything. There's

2740
02:34:29,240 --> 02:34:31,840
Speaker 2: a twenty twenty one case in New Hampshire where Democrats

2741
02:34:31,920 --> 02:34:35,160
Speaker 2: walked out in protest of an anti abortion bill. The

2742
02:34:35,240 --> 02:34:38,440
Speaker 2: Republican House speaker locked the doors to maintain a quorum.

2743
02:34:38,840 --> 02:34:40,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote from the Central organ Daily article.

2744
02:34:41,040 --> 02:34:43,080
Speaker 2: I'm locking the doors right now so that everybody in

2745
02:34:43,160 --> 02:34:45,119
Speaker 2: the chamber will stay in the chamber. Shout at House

2746
02:34:45,160 --> 02:34:47,920
Speaker 2: Speaker Sherman Packard, who later refused to let Democrats back

2747
02:34:47,959 --> 02:34:48,880
Speaker 2: in to vote on the bill.

2748
02:34:50,160 --> 02:34:54,800
Speaker 4: It's just fucking like representative politics is just snol children

2749
02:34:54,959 --> 02:34:57,560
Speaker 4: shouting at each other. I want them to fight with canes.

2750
02:34:57,720 --> 02:35:00,840
Speaker 4: They should be fighting with King agreed. Give them, give

2751
02:35:00,879 --> 02:35:02,800
Speaker 4: them all enough, let them fights it out.

2752
02:35:03,360 --> 02:35:05,680
Speaker 2: I would say ninety percent of the time, nothing is

2753
02:35:05,959 --> 02:35:08,800
Speaker 2: at least from the reading I've done, nothing is achieved

2754
02:35:08,879 --> 02:35:10,720
Speaker 2: except for a delay, which is not to say that

2755
02:35:10,800 --> 02:35:12,680
Speaker 2: that's nothing. And also I do believe, like in the

2756
02:35:12,720 --> 02:35:15,120
Speaker 2: case of the Democratic Party, I don't think what the

2757
02:35:15,160 --> 02:35:18,880
Speaker 2: Texas Democrats are doing will stop the redistricting. Like the

2758
02:35:18,959 --> 02:35:22,440
Speaker 2: Republicans are going to win this fight. It's worth fighting. Yeah,

2759
02:35:22,520 --> 02:35:26,000
Speaker 2: I'm glad they're fighting it. However, very rarely is the

2760
02:35:26,160 --> 02:35:29,400
Speaker 2: actual law stopped or is anything but a delay achieved.

2761
02:35:29,720 --> 02:35:31,840
Speaker 2: One of the rare cases in which something more was

2762
02:35:31,879 --> 02:35:36,000
Speaker 2: achieved is in twenty eleven in Wisconsin, Democratic state senators

2763
02:35:36,200 --> 02:35:40,440
Speaker 2: fled to Illinois as a protest against Governor Scott Walker.

2764
02:35:40,600 --> 02:35:43,119
Speaker 2: He was attempting to strip public workers of their union

2765
02:35:43,240 --> 02:35:46,400
Speaker 2: rights and this, you know, this walkout was staged at

2766
02:35:46,440 --> 02:35:48,840
Speaker 2: the same time as a mass pro union demonstration at

2767
02:35:48,879 --> 02:35:53,080
Speaker 2: the capitol, and after several weeks they won a partial victory.

2768
02:35:53,160 --> 02:35:57,240
Speaker 2: Republicans weakened the legislation, which is like significant, right, like

2769
02:35:57,400 --> 02:36:01,120
Speaker 2: the fact that they actually got concessions over this, and

2770
02:36:01,240 --> 02:36:03,600
Speaker 2: sometimes the delay can be significant. The same year that

2771
02:36:03,680 --> 02:36:07,200
Speaker 2: that all went down in Wisconsin, Indiana Democrats also left,

2772
02:36:07,280 --> 02:36:10,280
Speaker 2: for for whatever reason, ILLINOI is where you go if

2773
02:36:10,320 --> 02:36:12,760
Speaker 2: you're doing this. I don't No one wants to come

2774
02:36:12,840 --> 02:36:13,560
Speaker 2: get you know, wants to go.

2775
02:36:14,000 --> 02:36:15,280
Speaker 4: No one's coming to Illinois.

2776
02:36:15,560 --> 02:36:16,360
Speaker 2: It's just not worth it.

2777
02:36:16,760 --> 02:36:19,680
Speaker 4: I've been to fuck Illinois and sorry, Illinois is the

2778
02:36:19,720 --> 02:36:23,039
Speaker 4: hero of this story. We love you Illinois. Yeah, Chicago's five,

2779
02:36:23,160 --> 02:36:25,720
Speaker 4: Chicago's fined for whatever reason. This is the state you

2780
02:36:25,879 --> 02:36:28,040
Speaker 4: go to if you're a Democrat doing this in the

2781
02:36:28,120 --> 02:36:30,480
Speaker 4: modern era. If you're in Wisconsin, it's not that far away.

2782
02:36:30,520 --> 02:36:33,320
Speaker 4: I guess, well, this is Indiana too, and also not

2783
02:36:33,480 --> 02:36:35,840
Speaker 4: very far away. Yeah, it's also not far Yeah, they

2784
02:36:35,879 --> 02:36:38,320
Speaker 4: couldn't make it to California. You know, it's further now

2785
02:36:38,360 --> 02:36:39,480
Speaker 4: that Texans are doing it.

2786
02:36:39,640 --> 02:36:42,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but Indiana Democrats left in twenty eleven to prevent

2787
02:36:42,480 --> 02:36:47,440
Speaker 2: Republican law that would have stopped unions from levying mandatory

2788
02:36:47,560 --> 02:36:50,720
Speaker 2: fees on union members, which would kind of make could

2789
02:36:50,879 --> 02:36:53,760
Speaker 2: potentially make it impossible to do a union because nobody

2790
02:36:53,800 --> 02:36:57,520
Speaker 2: wants to pay for a union, but everyone wants won right, Yeah,

2791
02:36:57,720 --> 02:37:00,040
Speaker 2: every worker does you want the union protecting you. You

2792
02:37:00,080 --> 02:37:01,680
Speaker 2: don't want to have to give up your money, So

2793
02:37:01,760 --> 02:37:03,560
Speaker 2: it's the kind of thing you could I think the

2794
02:37:03,840 --> 02:37:07,000
Speaker 2: Republican plan was use the natural greed that people have

2795
02:37:07,280 --> 02:37:11,840
Speaker 2: in order to hamstring unionizing efforts. Many such cases and

2796
02:37:13,200 --> 02:37:15,480
Speaker 2: the Democrats left, which left the House short of its

2797
02:37:15,600 --> 02:37:19,360
Speaker 2: quorum and threatened to stay in the other states until

2798
02:37:19,680 --> 02:37:22,440
Speaker 2: they were promised that the bills would not be called.

2799
02:37:23,240 --> 02:37:25,840
Speaker 2: Republicans successfully passed the bill, but they had to wait

2800
02:37:25,920 --> 02:37:29,240
Speaker 2: until the next year. So again, every now and then

2801
02:37:29,520 --> 02:37:32,200
Speaker 2: you ECO win out here or the side doing this

2802
02:37:32,360 --> 02:37:35,119
Speaker 2: eeks out a win, and everyone does it, and everyone

2803
02:37:35,240 --> 02:37:37,120
Speaker 2: has been doing it for more than one hundred and

2804
02:37:37,200 --> 02:37:40,160
Speaker 2: fifty years. Nothing about this is new, with the exception

2805
02:37:40,240 --> 02:37:42,560
Speaker 2: of the fact that they actually look to be pushing

2806
02:37:42,640 --> 02:37:45,680
Speaker 2: some serious legal consequences. The most I've been able to

2807
02:37:45,720 --> 02:37:47,680
Speaker 2: find in the history of this is what happened in

2808
02:37:47,760 --> 02:37:50,760
Speaker 2: eighteen seventy where a number of people were arrested and

2809
02:37:50,879 --> 02:37:53,960
Speaker 2: held in custody for a few weeks. Usually no one

2810
02:37:54,080 --> 02:37:57,320
Speaker 2: is arrested, and usually the fines aren't even actually levy.

2811
02:37:57,520 --> 02:38:00,720
Speaker 2: Right now, this does cost money. The last text walkout,

2812
02:38:01,040 --> 02:38:03,680
Speaker 2: Texas Democrats were spending like ten grand a day on

2813
02:38:04,440 --> 02:38:08,360
Speaker 2: food and board, you know, paying for their hotels or whatever,

2814
02:38:08,760 --> 02:38:11,160
Speaker 2: which was I think Beato Olor raised most of the

2815
02:38:11,240 --> 02:38:13,400
Speaker 2: money through his pack which is what covered it.

2816
02:38:13,520 --> 02:38:15,160
Speaker 8: A few hundred grand, Yeah.

2817
02:38:15,320 --> 02:38:17,240
Speaker 4: Like six hundred thousand dollars. So you know, this does

2818
02:38:17,360 --> 02:38:19,200
Speaker 4: cost money to do because you've got to put these

2819
02:38:19,240 --> 02:38:22,400
Speaker 4: people up. But generally you're not really hiding them, and

2820
02:38:22,560 --> 02:38:26,520
Speaker 4: generally the legal consequences are more of a threat than

2821
02:38:26,560 --> 02:38:27,760
Speaker 4: a reality.

2822
02:38:27,560 --> 02:38:30,760
Speaker 8: Right, and that might not be true in this most

2823
02:38:30,840 --> 02:38:31,480
Speaker 8: recent year.

2824
02:38:31,560 --> 02:38:34,400
Speaker 2: Yes case, Yes, And we're going to throw to you, Garrison,

2825
02:38:34,520 --> 02:38:39,160
Speaker 2: But first you know who does force serious life changing

2826
02:38:39,240 --> 02:38:40,880
Speaker 2: legal consequences on people?

2827
02:38:41,480 --> 02:38:42,120
Speaker 4: Jay Pritzk.

2828
02:38:42,520 --> 02:38:42,680
Speaker 3: Yes.

2829
02:38:43,200 --> 02:38:45,640
Speaker 2: And the products and services that support this podcast, which

2830
02:38:45,640 --> 02:38:48,119
Speaker 2: are entirely we're actually backed entirely by JB.

2831
02:38:48,200 --> 02:38:51,680
Speaker 8: Pritzker from your mouth to God's ears, Robert.

2832
02:38:51,400 --> 02:38:55,800
Speaker 4: Not like knowingly I stole his debit card, and boy,

2833
02:38:55,920 --> 02:38:58,680
Speaker 4: that guy has a high daily spending lem let me

2834
02:38:58,760 --> 02:39:00,440
Speaker 4: tell you yeah, but he has a lot of shadow

2835
02:39:00,520 --> 02:39:04,680
Speaker 4: companies anyway, Thanks JB. Please don't change your password to

2836
02:39:04,760 --> 02:39:19,000
Speaker 4: your online bank. Garrison, Hi, We're.

2837
02:39:18,920 --> 02:39:23,400
Speaker 10: Back, so as Roberts said, Republicans in the Texas Legislature

2838
02:39:24,080 --> 02:39:27,160
Speaker 10: are trying to jerrymander Texas to increase their total power

2839
02:39:27,200 --> 02:39:30,080
Speaker 10: over the state, proposing a redistricting map that would add

2840
02:39:30,280 --> 02:39:34,000
Speaker 10: five more Republican seats, and in an effort to prevent

2841
02:39:34,200 --> 02:39:38,240
Speaker 10: or delay this, this past Sunday, sixty two Texas Democrats

2842
02:39:38,280 --> 02:39:41,280
Speaker 10: have fled to Illinois to deny quorum in the Texas House,

2843
02:39:41,560 --> 02:39:44,680
Speaker 10: and only twelve need to return in order for the

2844
02:39:44,760 --> 02:39:48,480
Speaker 10: redistricting to go through, with the main goal right now

2845
02:39:49,000 --> 02:39:52,280
Speaker 10: being trying to stay out of the state until November.

2846
02:39:52,840 --> 02:39:56,480
Speaker 10: In terms of consequences, new House rules adopted back in

2847
02:39:56,520 --> 02:40:00,080
Speaker 10: twenty twenty three after the twenty twenty one quorum, I

2848
02:40:00,240 --> 02:40:03,560
Speaker 10: can impose a five hundred dollars fine per day for

2849
02:40:03,760 --> 02:40:07,320
Speaker 10: missing lawmakers, not just from the governor. Now on Monday,

2850
02:40:07,520 --> 02:40:11,200
Speaker 10: the Texas House Republicans voted to issue civil arrestaurants for

2851
02:40:11,360 --> 02:40:14,119
Speaker 10: the lawmakers, empowering the Sergeant of Arms and the Texas

2852
02:40:14,280 --> 02:40:18,280
Speaker 10: State Troopers to locate, apprehend, and transport the rogue legislators

2853
02:40:18,360 --> 02:40:21,200
Speaker 10: back to the capitol. Governor Greg Abbot announced he had

2854
02:40:21,240 --> 02:40:23,600
Speaker 10: mobilized the Texas Department of Public Safety to return the

2855
02:40:23,640 --> 02:40:27,320
Speaker 10: Democrats to the chamber. Now, these warrants really only apply

2856
02:40:27,480 --> 02:40:30,560
Speaker 10: within state lines. These are civil warrants. They're not facing

2857
02:40:30,600 --> 02:40:34,520
Speaker 10: criminal charges though. Back in twenty and three, during a

2858
02:40:34,640 --> 02:40:39,039
Speaker 10: similar quorum break due to gerrymandering efforts, fedral resources were

2859
02:40:39,240 --> 02:40:44,200
Speaker 10: used to track planes with suspected rogue Democrat lawmakers. An

2860
02:40:44,280 --> 02:40:47,279
Speaker 10: Abbot has already proposed trying to declare their House seats

2861
02:40:47,400 --> 02:40:50,280
Speaker 10: vacant if they do not return, a tactic which would

2862
02:40:50,879 --> 02:40:56,400
Speaker 10: probably prompt some lengthy legal battles and require new special

2863
02:40:56,400 --> 02:40:59,040
Speaker 10: elections to take place to fill the seats. So that

2864
02:40:59,200 --> 02:41:03,280
Speaker 10: still would like delay this process. That's not a quick solution.

2865
02:41:04,720 --> 02:41:06,600
Speaker 10: But there has been some breaking news as of this

2866
02:41:06,840 --> 02:41:11,760
Speaker 10: morning recording Thursday. On Thursday morning, Texas Senator John Corbin

2867
02:41:11,959 --> 02:41:15,920
Speaker 10: announced that the FBI would now be investigating and working

2868
02:41:16,040 --> 02:41:20,199
Speaker 10: to locate the Texas House Democrats saying in a press release, quote,

2869
02:41:20,440 --> 02:41:23,840
Speaker 10: I thank President Trump and Director Patel for supporting and

2870
02:41:23,920 --> 02:41:26,280
Speaker 10: swiftly acting on my call for the federal government to

2871
02:41:26,360 --> 02:41:30,879
Speaker 10: hold these supposed lawmakers accountable for fleeing Texas. We cannot

2872
02:41:30,879 --> 02:41:36,440
Speaker 10: allow these rogue legislators to avoid their constitutional responsibilities unquote.

2873
02:41:37,280 --> 02:41:40,800
Speaker 10: So the extent of the FBI's involvement in tracking, down, locating,

2874
02:41:40,959 --> 02:41:44,840
Speaker 10: or apprehending the Democrats is currently unknown. The FBI has

2875
02:41:44,920 --> 02:41:47,680
Speaker 10: declined to comment, but this is something that's going to

2876
02:41:47,760 --> 02:41:49,879
Speaker 10: develop in the next week, which.

2877
02:41:49,760 --> 02:41:54,240
Speaker 2: They always do when ongoing case. Is like, sure, if

2878
02:41:54,280 --> 02:41:57,240
Speaker 2: you email or whatever the FBI about any ongoing case.

2879
02:41:57,320 --> 02:41:59,680
Speaker 2: This is what they do, period. It's been their policy

2880
02:41:59,720 --> 02:42:00,600
Speaker 2: for p Yeah.

2881
02:42:00,879 --> 02:42:03,360
Speaker 10: So it doesn't tell you anything, just saying that in

2882
02:42:03,480 --> 02:42:05,440
Speaker 10: terms of like, we do not know what the extent

2883
02:42:05,520 --> 02:42:08,000
Speaker 10: of their involvement is going to be at this point, right, yeah, right,

2884
02:42:08,040 --> 02:42:10,120
Speaker 10: And they might not even know either.

2885
02:42:10,640 --> 02:42:10,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2886
02:42:10,920 --> 02:42:12,960
Speaker 8: This could just be a tech cashpitl TikTok.

2887
02:42:13,520 --> 02:42:13,720
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2888
02:42:14,160 --> 02:42:17,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a good chance they're internally scrambling to like

2889
02:42:17,440 --> 02:42:18,480
Speaker 2: what are we gonna do?

2890
02:42:19,280 --> 02:42:22,360
Speaker 10: Like this would be unprecedented sending a federal like law

2891
02:42:22,440 --> 02:42:26,080
Speaker 10: enforcement arm to to to physically apprehend and return lawmakers.

2892
02:42:26,560 --> 02:42:29,879
Speaker 10: That is certainly an escalation from using like federal resources

2893
02:42:29,920 --> 02:42:31,720
Speaker 10: to track planes like they did in twos and three.

2894
02:42:32,320 --> 02:42:33,720
Speaker 10: This would be a whole new ballgame.

2895
02:42:34,200 --> 02:42:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. As I noted, it's uncommon for them to be

2896
02:42:37,320 --> 02:42:40,240
Speaker 2: arrested inside the state by the sergeant at arms.

2897
02:42:40,480 --> 02:42:42,760
Speaker 10: Yeah sure, I mean, like arrest just means, you know,

2898
02:42:42,840 --> 02:42:45,760
Speaker 10: you'd like accompany them back to the capital or force

2899
02:42:45,840 --> 02:42:47,160
Speaker 10: them to return to the capital.

2900
02:42:47,480 --> 02:42:49,400
Speaker 2: You're staying here, You're not going to leave to the state.

2901
02:42:49,560 --> 02:42:52,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, you've got a guy called sogeant Arms involved. It's

2902
02:42:52,400 --> 02:42:55,480
Speaker 4: not serious, but even that's purely uncommon. Yeah.

2903
02:42:55,760 --> 02:42:58,959
Speaker 10: No, I mean, like most corm breaks fail because legislators

2904
02:42:59,080 --> 02:43:01,920
Speaker 10: just choose to return, whether to do personal business, whether

2905
02:43:01,959 --> 02:43:05,360
Speaker 10: to do political business. It takes a lot of discipline

2906
02:43:05,520 --> 02:43:08,080
Speaker 10: to not return to your home for a period of

2907
02:43:08,240 --> 02:43:09,640
Speaker 10: like three to six months.

2908
02:43:09,959 --> 02:43:12,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get stuff to do. Most people, a lot

2909
02:43:12,840 --> 02:43:17,720
Speaker 2: of people have what are called familized Famali's something like that.

2910
02:43:17,959 --> 02:43:19,040
Speaker 8: For media, I don't know.

2911
02:43:19,360 --> 02:43:23,039
Speaker 2: I think it's a new concept. Yeah, we're still working

2912
02:43:23,080 --> 02:43:24,560
Speaker 2: at cool Zone to get a handle on it. We'll

2913
02:43:24,600 --> 02:43:26,720
Speaker 2: have a report on whatever that is, so don't worry.

2914
02:43:27,120 --> 02:43:29,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, they got to get back to the polycule or whatever.

2915
02:43:29,959 --> 02:43:36,160
Speaker 4: But they haven't violated a federal law right lately. No,

2916
02:43:36,600 --> 02:43:39,280
Speaker 4: so federal, they'ven't violated a Texas law.

2917
02:43:39,720 --> 02:43:42,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not a law violation. It is

2918
02:43:42,680 --> 02:43:45,560
Speaker 2: literally the governor saying I'm sending guys for you.

2919
02:43:46,080 --> 02:43:49,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just some old timey parliamentarian shit.

2920
02:43:49,200 --> 02:43:49,360
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2921
02:43:49,440 --> 02:43:51,640
Speaker 8: And like you know, as I was saying, it's like again,

2922
02:43:51,760 --> 02:43:54,440
Speaker 8: it isn't this could just be a cash hotel TikTok op.

2923
02:43:54,920 --> 02:43:57,080
Speaker 2: But also I hate the way that sounds.

2924
02:43:57,600 --> 02:43:59,959
Speaker 4: I what a fucking way to describe a federal law

2925
02:44:00,160 --> 02:44:01,960
Speaker 4: enforcement Oh it's on hinge.

2926
02:44:02,040 --> 02:44:03,920
Speaker 8: This is genuinely okay, I'm gonna take a very very

2927
02:44:03,959 --> 02:44:05,920
Speaker 8: slight detour, which I said this before. But also, like

2928
02:44:06,000 --> 02:44:08,080
Speaker 8: the thing that gives me the most hope about all

2929
02:44:08,160 --> 02:44:11,480
Speaker 8: of this is that, like, look, they found the right

2930
02:44:11,560 --> 02:44:14,040
Speaker 8: winger to put in charge of the American seecret Police,

2931
02:44:14,080 --> 02:44:15,720
Speaker 8: and he doesn't want to do his job because he

2932
02:44:15,800 --> 02:44:16,920
Speaker 8: just wants to be a podcaster.

2933
02:44:17,200 --> 02:44:22,280
Speaker 2: Hey understand, Look, you make me director the FBI, and

2934
02:44:22,400 --> 02:44:24,480
Speaker 2: I promise to be more or less the same.

2935
02:44:25,440 --> 02:44:25,640
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2936
02:44:25,720 --> 02:44:28,600
Speaker 8: But you know, but if this is actually a thing,

2937
02:44:28,840 --> 02:44:32,080
Speaker 8: right and federal agents is only grabbing vallmakers out of Illinois.

2938
02:44:32,800 --> 02:44:36,560
Speaker 2: That is that's a big deal. Yeah, that's a massive escalation.

2939
02:44:36,800 --> 02:44:40,000
Speaker 10: And that's why, as people fully supported by Pritzker's private militia,

2940
02:44:40,200 --> 02:44:42,400
Speaker 10: we will be on the front lines defending the Texas

2941
02:44:42,440 --> 02:44:46,240
Speaker 10: lav makers. That's right, saluting the Chicago flag.

2942
02:44:46,560 --> 02:44:46,840
Speaker 5: M hm.

2943
02:44:47,400 --> 02:44:51,520
Speaker 2: Yes, as as governor, Pritzker recently stated blood for the

2944
02:44:51,600 --> 02:44:54,600
Speaker 2: blood gods, skulls for the skull throne. Classic Pritzker.

2945
02:44:55,160 --> 02:44:57,000
Speaker 8: I mean, you need to do some Pritzker not even

2946
02:44:57,080 --> 02:44:59,920
Speaker 8: slander here. So just fuck you. Tiny bit of fun

2947
02:45:00,200 --> 02:45:02,199
Speaker 8: Pritzker news, which I was gonna talk about a little

2948
02:45:02,200 --> 02:45:07,480
Speaker 8: bit anyways later. But Pritzker has basically allowed a bunch

2949
02:45:07,520 --> 02:45:10,959
Speaker 8: of hospitals in Chicago to stop covering gender affirming care

2950
02:45:11,040 --> 02:45:14,119
Speaker 8: for minors, even though it's like illegal under Illinois state law.

2951
02:45:14,720 --> 02:45:18,280
Speaker 8: So fuck him for that. Eat shit. Yeah we we

2952
02:45:18,440 --> 02:45:21,640
Speaker 8: we will unfortunately oppose the Kannie of the Great Plains.

2953
02:45:23,560 --> 02:45:26,600
Speaker 2: And what's the reasoning there? Has he given any He was.

2954
02:45:26,640 --> 02:45:28,160
Speaker 8: Just like, oh, well they're gonna lose funding.

2955
02:45:29,040 --> 02:45:32,320
Speaker 2: Ah, oh no, it is over yeah, okay, yeahs it

2956
02:45:32,440 --> 02:45:34,400
Speaker 2: is over the threats. But like, yeah, a number of

2957
02:45:34,480 --> 02:45:37,600
Speaker 2: states have been have been something similar as brewing in Oregon,

2958
02:45:37,720 --> 02:45:38,040
Speaker 2: right now.

2959
02:45:39,000 --> 02:45:40,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, we've we've Yeah, this has been happening Oregon. We

2960
02:45:41,320 --> 02:45:45,480
Speaker 8: just had an episode about people resisting this in Pennsylvania.

2961
02:45:45,800 --> 02:45:48,360
Speaker 8: This will be a continuing, ongoing struggle. But I fuck

2962
02:45:48,400 --> 02:45:49,480
Speaker 8: you Pritzker eat shit.

2963
02:45:50,200 --> 02:45:56,800
Speaker 10: Like I do have two science stories for this middle

2964
02:45:57,080 --> 02:46:02,160
Speaker 10: segment here. First one, I'm gonna call on everyone's I

2965
02:46:02,200 --> 02:46:04,439
Speaker 10: don't know, probably my least favorite Kennedy.

2966
02:46:04,879 --> 02:46:10,119
Speaker 8: RFRS Wow controversial. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of bad Kennedys.

2967
02:46:11,040 --> 02:46:15,160
Speaker 11: After reviewing the science and consulting top experts at NIH

2968
02:46:15,280 --> 02:46:20,960
Speaker 11: and FDA, HHS has determined that mRNA technology poses more

2969
02:46:21,080 --> 02:46:26,040
Speaker 11: risks than benefits for these respiratory viruses. That's why, after

2970
02:46:26,160 --> 02:46:30,119
Speaker 11: extensive review, BARTA has begun the process of terminating these

2971
02:46:30,200 --> 02:46:32,439
Speaker 11: twenty two contracts totaling.

2972
02:46:32,480 --> 02:46:34,240
Speaker 2: Just under five hundred million dollars.

2973
02:46:35,400 --> 02:46:39,600
Speaker 11: To replace the troubled mRNA programs, we're prioritizing the development

2974
02:46:39,640 --> 02:46:42,279
Speaker 11: of the safer, broader vaccine strategies.

2975
02:46:43,040 --> 02:46:45,680
Speaker 10: Sure, sure thing, sure thing, mister Kennedy.

2976
02:46:45,840 --> 02:46:47,320
Speaker 8: Oh Jesus fucking Christ.

2977
02:46:47,920 --> 02:46:50,800
Speaker 2: Yeah that sounds true, and not like we're throwing away

2978
02:46:50,920 --> 02:46:54,440
Speaker 2: a holy grail of medical miracles.

2979
02:46:54,080 --> 02:46:55,560
Speaker 8: Literally won the Nobel Price.

2980
02:46:56,080 --> 02:46:59,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so this is this is some devastating

2981
02:46:59,200 --> 02:47:03,320
Speaker 10: news where he is removing twenty two contracts researchers and

2982
02:47:03,400 --> 02:47:08,800
Speaker 10: universities that are developing new mRNA vaccine technology and earlier

2983
02:47:08,879 --> 02:47:10,400
Speaker 10: in that video. So I'm not going to play because

2984
02:47:10,400 --> 02:47:14,240
Speaker 10: it's just him basically lying. But he was lying about

2985
02:47:14,280 --> 02:47:18,760
Speaker 10: how mRNA technology has been ineffective against upper respiratory infections

2986
02:47:19,000 --> 02:47:21,560
Speaker 10: because it only targets a single protein which not only

2987
02:47:21,600 --> 02:47:24,959
Speaker 10: becomes obsolete due to mutations, but actually accelerates the mutation

2988
02:47:25,160 --> 02:47:26,879
Speaker 10: process in prolongs pandemics.

2989
02:47:27,440 --> 02:47:28,440
Speaker 2: This is not true.

2990
02:47:28,560 --> 02:47:30,880
Speaker 8: You can no, it's not true. This is not true.

2991
02:47:31,000 --> 02:47:34,439
Speaker 10: And one of the most unique aspects of mRNA technology

2992
02:47:34,840 --> 02:47:37,240
Speaker 10: is that the vaccines can be developed at a much

2993
02:47:37,560 --> 02:47:41,760
Speaker 10: faster pace to be deployed against mutations. And even if

2994
02:47:42,080 --> 02:47:45,199
Speaker 10: a vaccine is not does not one hundred percent prevent

2995
02:47:45,360 --> 02:47:49,000
Speaker 10: an infection, that doesn't mean they still won't like decrease

2996
02:47:49,040 --> 02:47:52,760
Speaker 10: the severity of symptoms. He is trying to coat his

2997
02:47:53,240 --> 02:47:58,400
Speaker 10: decades decades long like anti vaccine advocacy in this like

2998
02:47:58,520 --> 02:48:01,920
Speaker 10: scientific language while actually just like stripping away all of

2999
02:48:02,040 --> 02:48:05,040
Speaker 10: the funding and removing access to vaccines. And this is

3000
02:48:05,080 --> 02:48:06,720
Speaker 10: the stuff that he promised not to do. In his

3001
02:48:06,840 --> 02:48:08,720
Speaker 10: confirmation hearings, he said that he would not take away

3002
02:48:08,760 --> 02:48:11,400
Speaker 10: vaccines yep, and he would not change who's on the

3003
02:48:11,520 --> 02:48:12,840
Speaker 10: vaccine advisory panels.

3004
02:48:13,320 --> 02:48:14,720
Speaker 8: He has done both of those things so far.

3005
02:48:15,320 --> 02:48:17,440
Speaker 10: Like two months ago, he fired all seventy members of

3006
02:48:17,600 --> 02:48:20,640
Speaker 10: the advisory panel. I talked with Cave about this, and

3007
02:48:20,720 --> 02:48:23,920
Speaker 10: he replaced them with eight anti vaxxers. And not only

3008
02:48:23,959 --> 02:48:27,200
Speaker 10: did he remove a multi billion dollar contract from Derna

3009
02:48:27,480 --> 02:48:31,520
Speaker 10: to continue mRNA vaccine research, he now canceled these twenty

3010
02:48:31,560 --> 02:48:34,520
Speaker 10: two other contracts, totally five hundred million dollars of technology.

3011
02:48:34,720 --> 02:48:37,200
Speaker 10: People are going to die and get sick because of

3012
02:48:37,440 --> 02:48:40,720
Speaker 10: these changes, yes, yeah, which doesn't just affect like COVID

3013
02:48:40,840 --> 02:48:43,400
Speaker 10: and the flu. It also affects all of the other

3014
02:48:43,480 --> 02:48:47,560
Speaker 10: ways that mRNA technology can be utilized. A lot of

3015
02:48:47,600 --> 02:48:50,600
Speaker 10: these research projects are about expanding the possible use of

3016
02:48:50,680 --> 02:48:53,520
Speaker 10: this technology beyond upper respiratory infections.

3017
02:48:54,120 --> 02:48:55,279
Speaker 8: So this sucks.

3018
02:48:56,959 --> 02:48:58,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is real bad.

3019
02:48:58,120 --> 02:49:01,040
Speaker 10: It's I am very nerve about the development of the

3020
02:49:01,200 --> 02:49:04,240
Speaker 10: HIV vaccine and cancer vaccines, things that we were getting

3021
02:49:04,520 --> 02:49:08,440
Speaker 10: so close to now being put intojeopardy because this fucking

3022
02:49:08,520 --> 02:49:10,880
Speaker 10: clown is in charge of health and human services.

3023
02:49:11,720 --> 02:49:13,439
Speaker 4: A ton of is who I've done at the Salkansche

3024
02:49:13,520 --> 02:49:14,480
Speaker 4: in San Diego, Itchile.

3025
02:49:15,360 --> 02:49:19,640
Speaker 10: It was reported earlier this week that some Republicans and

3026
02:49:19,680 --> 02:49:22,960
Speaker 10: Trump himself might actually not be happy about this. And

3027
02:49:23,200 --> 02:49:26,080
Speaker 10: Trump has a meeting scheduled with RFT Junior today to

3028
02:49:26,240 --> 02:49:30,880
Speaker 10: discuss these cancelations, so we'll see where that goes. In

3029
02:49:31,440 --> 02:49:36,920
Speaker 10: some other science news, Sean Duffy, interm NASA administrator who

3030
02:49:36,959 --> 02:49:40,120
Speaker 10: also has the Secretary of Transportation, who directed his employees

3031
02:49:40,240 --> 02:49:44,879
Speaker 10: to prioritize funding and grants to towards demographics with high

3032
02:49:44,959 --> 02:49:50,320
Speaker 10: marriage rates. He announced that he was expediating plans to

3033
02:49:50,400 --> 02:49:53,160
Speaker 10: launch and operate a one hundred kilowatt nuclear.

3034
02:49:52,920 --> 02:49:54,680
Speaker 8: Reactor for the Moon.

3035
02:49:55,280 --> 02:49:58,040
Speaker 2: Great. Look, there's a lot of people living on the

3036
02:49:58,160 --> 02:50:01,800
Speaker 2: Moon and power outages have been a constant problem there. Garrison,

3037
02:50:01,959 --> 02:50:06,119
Speaker 2: if this science fiction novel from the nineteen sixties is accurate.

3038
02:50:06,879 --> 02:50:09,160
Speaker 10: I talk with a friend of mine who is an

3039
02:50:09,200 --> 02:50:14,200
Speaker 10: anonymous NASA contractor. She gave a quote, quote I need

3040
02:50:14,280 --> 02:50:15,959
Speaker 10: a cigarette unquote.

3041
02:50:17,120 --> 02:50:18,960
Speaker 2: Great, because he just got fucked.

3042
02:50:19,920 --> 02:50:21,760
Speaker 8: It's also worth noting that all of this is coming

3043
02:50:21,959 --> 02:50:26,119
Speaker 8: in the context of the largest really like the largest

3044
02:50:26,200 --> 02:50:28,840
Speaker 8: cuts in the history of American science across the board

3045
02:50:28,920 --> 02:50:32,720
Speaker 8: to anything that's actually like I'm gonna get remotely doing science,

3046
02:50:32,840 --> 02:50:34,680
Speaker 8: Like yeah, sorry, I just I just want to go

3047
02:50:34,720 --> 02:50:38,119
Speaker 8: on it, especially space science. Like Duffy's trying to manufacture

3048
02:50:38,160 --> 02:50:41,720
Speaker 8: this new space race and prioritize like manned moon missions,

3049
02:50:41,959 --> 02:50:46,360
Speaker 8: all while cutting at least fifty percent all NASA science

3050
02:50:46,400 --> 02:50:50,080
Speaker 8: missions and just like absolutely crippling NASA's capacity to actually

3051
02:50:50,080 --> 02:50:53,320
Speaker 8: develop technology. Now, Duffy said at a press conference and

3052
02:50:53,440 --> 02:50:55,640
Speaker 8: end seeing this new directive on Tuesday, quote, we are

3053
02:50:55,720 --> 02:50:59,640
Speaker 8: in a race to the moon, a race with China

3054
02:50:59,800 --> 02:51:02,880
Speaker 8: to the moon, and to have a base on the moon,

3055
02:51:03,080 --> 02:51:07,760
Speaker 8: we need energy. Unquote is that fucking nineteen fifty talk?

3056
02:51:07,840 --> 02:51:09,959
Speaker 8: What are you talking about? That is the time when

3057
02:51:10,000 --> 02:51:11,440
Speaker 8: the greatness happened Garson.

3058
02:51:12,000 --> 02:51:13,440
Speaker 2: They want to go back to that.

3059
02:51:13,920 --> 02:51:17,240
Speaker 10: The NASA contractor I spoke with said, quote, NASA is

3060
02:51:17,320 --> 02:51:20,520
Speaker 10: already down at least twenty percent of its workforce and

3061
02:51:20,680 --> 02:51:23,640
Speaker 10: behind on its previously announced to lunar missions and objectives

3062
02:51:23,879 --> 02:51:26,880
Speaker 10: see the Lunar Gateway and Artemis three. I just don't

3063
02:51:26,879 --> 02:51:30,400
Speaker 10: immediately see a world where NASA does this successfully, even

3064
02:51:30,440 --> 02:51:32,959
Speaker 10: if they go the route of contracting it out. If

3065
02:51:33,000 --> 02:51:36,720
Speaker 10: the success. Specifically, the lack thereof of the Commercial Lunar

3066
02:51:36,800 --> 02:51:41,400
Speaker 10: Payload Services Program and the Commercial LEEO Destinations program has

3067
02:51:41,520 --> 02:51:43,680
Speaker 10: any indication for how this will go. It will be

3068
02:51:43,760 --> 02:51:47,560
Speaker 10: mirrored in failure and many years behind schedule at best

3069
02:51:47,879 --> 02:51:51,120
Speaker 10: un quote. This new NASA directive from Shan Daffey calls

3070
02:51:51,200 --> 02:51:55,520
Speaker 10: for a Fission Surface Power Program Executive to be named

3071
02:51:55,560 --> 02:52:00,600
Speaker 10: by the end of August, who will then yes, yes, impleant,

3072
02:52:00,640 --> 02:52:03,959
Speaker 10: and oversee the project while reporting directly to the NASA Administrator.

3073
02:52:04,040 --> 02:52:07,760
Speaker 10: The directive reads quote. Since March twenty twenty four, China

3074
02:52:07,920 --> 02:52:10,960
Speaker 10: and Russia have announced on at least three occasions a

3075
02:52:11,120 --> 02:52:13,120
Speaker 10: joint effort to place a reactor on the Moon by

3076
02:52:13,120 --> 02:52:15,320
Speaker 10: the mid twenty thirties. The first country to do so

3077
02:52:15,400 --> 02:52:18,800
Speaker 10: could potentially declare a keep out zone, which would significantly

3078
02:52:18,840 --> 02:52:22,560
Speaker 10: inhibit the United States from establishing a planned Artemis presence

3079
02:52:22,720 --> 02:52:27,480
Speaker 10: if not their first unquote. And this is I think

3080
02:52:27,520 --> 02:52:29,960
Speaker 10: a big part of why Duffy is wanting to do this,

3081
02:52:30,280 --> 02:52:33,240
Speaker 10: and the contractor I spoke to you said quote, if

3082
02:52:33,240 --> 02:52:36,920
Speaker 10: they're able to extend some quote unquote exclusion zone around

3083
02:52:37,160 --> 02:52:40,279
Speaker 10: a reactor on the surface where other countries aren't allowed

3084
02:52:40,360 --> 02:52:42,720
Speaker 10: to land. It's not difficult to imagine that they may

3085
02:52:42,800 --> 02:52:46,120
Speaker 10: try to use this to de facto claim areas of

3086
02:52:46,240 --> 02:52:48,160
Speaker 10: the Moon for the United States.

3087
02:52:48,560 --> 02:52:49,080
Speaker 2: Unquote.

3088
02:52:49,400 --> 02:52:52,119
Speaker 4: Hell yeah, we have colonized the Moon.

3089
02:52:52,640 --> 02:52:57,200
Speaker 10: And there is even more troubling use cases. Part of

3090
02:52:57,240 --> 02:53:00,240
Speaker 10: the directive reads that this would quote encourage do will

3091
02:53:00,560 --> 02:53:06,119
Speaker 10: use civil and defense operational architectures, Yes, for deployed fission

3092
02:53:06,680 --> 02:53:12,840
Speaker 10: surface power systems in coordination with interagency partners Moon base unquote.

3093
02:53:13,120 --> 02:53:16,360
Speaker 10: Space Force finally getting its moment in the sun on

3094
02:53:16,480 --> 02:53:16,800
Speaker 10: the Moon.

3095
02:53:16,879 --> 02:53:18,640
Speaker 2: I guess this really is just like.

3096
02:53:18,760 --> 02:53:23,400
Speaker 8: The pure unspeakable tragedy is unspeakable first version of colonialism,

3097
02:53:23,440 --> 02:53:26,400
Speaker 8: because it's like the Moon is the one place that

3098
02:53:26,560 --> 02:53:30,040
Speaker 8: is actually tyrannualists and there's nothing there and there's nothing

3099
02:53:30,240 --> 02:53:36,040
Speaker 8: to gain from being there. There's just nothing. But you know,

3100
02:53:36,200 --> 02:53:37,560
Speaker 8: we got to colonize it.

3101
02:53:37,760 --> 02:53:40,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, but the sun ever sets on the American Empire

3102
02:53:40,320 --> 02:53:42,440
Speaker 4: if you've got the Moon on it as well, so

3103
02:53:42,520 --> 02:53:43,560
Speaker 4: you got that going for you.

3104
02:53:44,240 --> 02:53:48,040
Speaker 8: It's just just it's just pure drive of colonialism detached

3105
02:53:48,320 --> 02:53:52,000
Speaker 8: from its actual like material motives.

3106
02:53:52,520 --> 02:53:55,320
Speaker 4: Having failed to gain Greenland, we will pivot and take

3107
02:53:55,400 --> 02:53:56,320
Speaker 4: the Moon instead.

3108
02:53:57,160 --> 02:53:59,200
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the moon and Greenland are both

3109
02:53:59,480 --> 02:54:01,360
Speaker 2: similar habitable territories, so.

3110
02:54:01,760 --> 02:54:04,440
Speaker 4: It's true, but you can't do backflips in Greenland.

3111
02:54:04,600 --> 02:54:07,880
Speaker 8: So like, this is the plant of despicable meat. Like

3112
02:54:08,400 --> 02:54:10,640
Speaker 8: that's what we're doing here, We're doing the plaut of

3113
02:54:10,680 --> 02:54:11,280
Speaker 8: despicable me.

3114
02:54:13,240 --> 02:54:17,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, many science fiction movies have predicted this, Please send

3115
02:54:17,959 --> 02:54:18,960
Speaker 4: them all to us.

3116
02:54:19,200 --> 02:54:21,720
Speaker 2: Yes, as was noted by Robert Heinlend, the moon is

3117
02:54:21,800 --> 02:54:25,800
Speaker 2: indeed a harsh mistress. Wait, what is that I hear?

3118
02:54:26,400 --> 02:54:28,240
Speaker 2: Is that the tariff song?

3119
02:54:32,480 --> 02:54:42,519
Speaker 8: Rocky jazz, rocky jazz. Sorry, rocky jazz, rocky.

3120
02:54:42,560 --> 02:54:47,960
Speaker 2: Jazz, ah god, every time, every time, it's good.

3121
02:54:48,480 --> 02:54:50,640
Speaker 8: Let's talk tariff tariffs. There's so many of them. The

3122
02:54:50,720 --> 02:54:54,280
Speaker 8: tariffs have gone into effect. So all right, we're gonna

3123
02:54:54,280 --> 02:54:57,320
Speaker 8: do a full episode about this on Monday, because there

3124
02:54:57,440 --> 02:55:00,480
Speaker 8: is so much tariff bullshit that it quite for needs

3125
02:55:00,480 --> 02:55:02,360
Speaker 8: its own actual episode in which we're going to be

3126
02:55:02,440 --> 02:55:07,680
Speaker 8: talking about shit like, for example, the US has maybe

3127
02:55:07,800 --> 02:55:10,840
Speaker 8: on accident, maybe on purpose, recognized the Junta meen Maar

3128
02:55:10,959 --> 02:55:13,520
Speaker 8: is the legitimate government to the tariff stuff. We're talking

3129
02:55:13,520 --> 02:55:15,120
Speaker 8: about that on Monday because we don't have time for

3130
02:55:15,160 --> 02:55:19,080
Speaker 8: that shit. What we instead have time for is the

3131
02:55:19,560 --> 02:55:23,760
Speaker 8: just massive array of tariffs on a list of countries

3132
02:55:23,840 --> 02:55:27,520
Speaker 8: so long that we just genuinely can't read them all. Okay,

3133
02:55:27,720 --> 02:55:30,600
Speaker 8: this is a very very confusing raft of tariffs. In

3134
02:55:30,640 --> 02:55:33,600
Speaker 8: a lot of ways, it's simpler than the other ones.

3135
02:55:33,879 --> 02:55:36,920
Speaker 8: But okay, so so Persian, And if the US runs

3136
02:55:36,959 --> 02:55:39,000
Speaker 8: a trade deficit with you and you're not also in

3137
02:55:39,040 --> 02:55:41,400
Speaker 8: one of the other special categories where we have imposed

3138
02:55:41,520 --> 02:55:43,480
Speaker 8: a really high tariff on you, it's like fifteen percent.

3139
02:55:43,879 --> 02:55:47,000
Speaker 8: If we have a trade surplus with the country we

3140
02:55:47,160 --> 02:55:51,480
Speaker 8: imposed a ten percent tariff. This doesn't make any sense, sure, Okay.

3141
02:55:51,560 --> 02:55:53,119
Speaker 8: So it's like in terms of the state of motives

3142
02:55:53,160 --> 02:55:55,200
Speaker 8: of the tariffs, it doesn't make any sense except in

3143
02:55:55,320 --> 02:55:59,000
Speaker 8: terms of like raising money, which these raised very little

3144
02:55:59,120 --> 02:56:01,360
Speaker 8: actual money run relative to like the amount of money

3145
02:56:01,400 --> 02:56:02,240
Speaker 8: the US spends.

3146
02:56:02,560 --> 02:56:02,800
Speaker 9: I mean.

3147
02:56:03,080 --> 02:56:07,200
Speaker 10: Right wing commentators have stated that the end goal of

3148
02:56:07,560 --> 02:56:10,680
Speaker 10: this massive tariff program is to abolish income tax because

3149
02:56:10,720 --> 02:56:12,480
Speaker 10: we can fund the government through TIFFs.

3150
02:56:12,560 --> 02:56:16,160
Speaker 4: Actually great, yeah, and I just know that, No, you

3151
02:56:16,280 --> 02:56:20,960
Speaker 4: can't like this, No, this is just yeah. At the

3152
02:56:21,000 --> 02:56:24,320
Speaker 4: same time as said, driving the deficit into the fucking sky.

3153
02:56:24,560 --> 02:56:27,280
Speaker 8: Like yeah, And we've talked about the sort of riffs

3154
02:56:27,320 --> 02:56:29,240
Speaker 8: that this has caused with like the sort of true

3155
02:56:29,280 --> 02:56:34,720
Speaker 8: believer deficit hawks versus these just completely unhinged fund the

3156
02:56:34,760 --> 02:56:38,040
Speaker 8: government with tariff weirdos. But Comma, there have been a

3157
02:56:38,160 --> 02:56:40,520
Speaker 8: huge number of countries that now we have fifteen percent

3158
02:56:40,560 --> 02:56:45,200
Speaker 8: tariffs on We've also gotten a formal announcement of the

3159
02:56:45,280 --> 02:56:48,960
Speaker 8: one hundred percent tariffs on semiconductors unless you invest do

3160
02:56:49,120 --> 02:56:52,080
Speaker 8: some kind of certificant investment in the US. It's deeply

3161
02:56:52,240 --> 02:56:57,040
Speaker 8: unclear what the fuck that means. Apple hasn't pledged to

3162
02:56:57,120 --> 02:57:00,560
Speaker 8: invest one hundred billion dollars in the US. There's this

3163
02:57:01,200 --> 02:57:04,240
Speaker 8: very very weird thing on the right where like they

3164
02:57:04,360 --> 02:57:07,440
Speaker 8: just they think that you can make iPhones here. You can't.

3165
02:57:07,720 --> 02:57:09,920
Speaker 8: You just simply cannot. We you don't have the labor force,

3166
02:57:09,959 --> 02:57:12,800
Speaker 8: you don't have the technology. Yeah, but Tim Cook did

3167
02:57:13,000 --> 02:57:14,039
Speaker 8: just bribe Trump with a.

3168
02:57:14,920 --> 02:57:19,520
Speaker 4: Nice plate golden iPhone, big ing get to gold.

3169
02:57:19,800 --> 02:57:22,520
Speaker 2: So I thought it was a gold iPhone. There was

3170
02:57:22,560 --> 02:57:23,760
Speaker 2: some glass involved.

3171
02:57:23,480 --> 02:57:24,880
Speaker 10: As well, No, it was it was it was a

3172
02:57:24,959 --> 02:57:28,760
Speaker 10: plate that was on like a gold like brick base.

3173
02:57:29,440 --> 02:57:31,120
Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, that's the way we're doing now

3174
02:57:32,240 --> 02:57:33,320
Speaker 2: beside it under the radar.

3175
02:57:34,879 --> 02:57:35,119
Speaker 5: Cool.

3176
02:57:35,440 --> 02:57:38,959
Speaker 10: You have to bribe the Supreme ruler by giving gifts

3177
02:57:39,000 --> 02:57:41,600
Speaker 10: of gold to grand good favor o.

3178
02:57:42,000 --> 02:57:42,800
Speaker 5: God it is.

3179
02:57:44,600 --> 02:57:48,080
Speaker 4: It's like fucking smoke whatever, Like it has this pile

3180
02:57:48,120 --> 02:57:50,039
Speaker 4: of gold that he's going to be sitting on. It's

3181
02:57:50,040 --> 02:57:52,320
Speaker 4: going to be Scrooge mcducking in that ship by the

3182
02:57:52,440 --> 02:57:53,120
Speaker 4: end of four years.

3183
02:57:53,120 --> 02:57:55,160
Speaker 8: Oh, don't get us started on darktails.

3184
02:57:55,320 --> 02:57:59,640
Speaker 4: Oh no, no, no, no, Yeah, that'll really inflate the

3185
02:57:59,720 --> 02:58:02,279
Speaker 4: length of this episode. That's what they call a layup

3186
02:58:02,480 --> 02:58:06,320
Speaker 4: in nine sports ball. Yeah, what's the tear us up too?

3187
02:58:06,640 --> 02:58:09,960
Speaker 8: They're calling me the fucking webbin Yabo, fucking a fucking

3188
02:58:10,360 --> 02:58:13,680
Speaker 8: inflation shop blocking. Fuck this we're talking about. We're talking

3189
02:58:13,680 --> 02:58:16,680
Speaker 8: about hip infrastructure. People have been trying to develop like

3190
02:58:16,800 --> 02:58:18,600
Speaker 8: the infrastructure developed ships for a long time.

3191
02:58:18,640 --> 02:58:18,760
Speaker 10: Now.

3192
02:58:18,800 --> 02:58:21,600
Speaker 8: The Biden administration did this. The Chinese government isn't boring

3193
02:58:21,600 --> 02:58:23,520
Speaker 8: a bunch of money into it. And it's basically impossible

3194
02:58:23,560 --> 02:58:27,040
Speaker 8: to actually develop domestic hip infrastructure other than the kinds

3195
02:58:27,080 --> 02:58:30,600
Speaker 8: of infrastructure that the US already has, because the really

3196
02:58:30,640 --> 02:58:33,560
Speaker 8: short version of it is that it's not just a

3197
02:58:33,680 --> 02:58:36,640
Speaker 8: technological problem, and it is it's really hard to actually

3198
02:58:36,640 --> 02:58:38,880
Speaker 8: felt the technology. This is why almost all of the

3199
02:58:39,680 --> 02:58:42,199
Speaker 8: direct productions off the're trying to replicate basically just happens

3200
02:58:42,200 --> 02:58:45,760
Speaker 8: in Taiwan. It's not just a problem of the technology

3201
02:58:45,840 --> 02:58:48,920
Speaker 8: is really hard. It's a problem of the machines to

3202
02:58:49,080 --> 02:58:52,840
Speaker 8: make the machines that you need to make. These things

3203
02:58:53,400 --> 02:58:56,560
Speaker 8: exist in like one place in the world, in Switzerland, right,

3204
02:58:56,959 --> 02:58:59,720
Speaker 8: So in order to actually scale up production of this

3205
02:58:59,800 --> 02:59:02,160
Speaker 8: would just in theory, what these one hundred percent imported

3206
02:59:02,200 --> 02:59:05,120
Speaker 8: semi conductor tariffs are supposed to do. Right, You have

3207
02:59:05,280 --> 02:59:08,760
Speaker 8: to go up three layers of the supply chain. You

3208
02:59:08,840 --> 02:59:10,480
Speaker 8: have to make the machines to make the machines that

3209
02:59:10,560 --> 02:59:13,039
Speaker 8: make the machines that make the semi conductors. Right, That's

3210
02:59:13,080 --> 02:59:14,840
Speaker 8: like the simplest way to explain it.

3211
02:59:15,600 --> 02:59:15,880
Speaker 5: We don't.

3212
02:59:16,160 --> 02:59:17,920
Speaker 8: We can't fucking do that, like a we could throw

3213
02:59:17,920 --> 02:59:20,400
Speaker 8: a fucking hundred billion dollars, that's what they would do. Shit, Right,

3214
02:59:20,800 --> 02:59:24,960
Speaker 8: So they're chasing just a ghost. But you know, our

3215
02:59:25,160 --> 02:59:28,080
Speaker 8: entire sort of like trade policy is just being run

3216
02:59:28,280 --> 02:59:34,040
Speaker 8: by the just weird, fascist, miasmic phantoms of all of

3217
02:59:34,120 --> 02:59:37,600
Speaker 8: these trade policy people. Now, it's also worth noting that

3218
02:59:37,680 --> 02:59:41,560
Speaker 8: there's been you know, another I guess kind of tariff

3219
02:59:41,600 --> 02:59:44,400
Speaker 8: that's been enacted other than hilariously the countries that tried

3220
02:59:44,400 --> 02:59:47,160
Speaker 8: to negotiate with Trump got worse rates than the ones

3221
02:59:47,200 --> 02:59:49,240
Speaker 8: who just waited until the imposted fifteen percent rate.

3222
02:59:49,920 --> 02:59:53,040
Speaker 4: Generally that's good, it's funny.

3223
02:59:53,320 --> 02:59:54,440
Speaker 5: But also so.

3224
02:59:54,760 --> 02:59:58,240
Speaker 8: Trump has been threatening anyone who buys oil from Russia,

3225
02:59:58,400 --> 03:00:01,200
Speaker 8: and also I think then is weyla although it's been

3226
03:00:01,400 --> 03:00:04,320
Speaker 8: less for US on that with fifty percent tariffs. Right

3227
03:00:04,440 --> 03:00:07,959
Speaker 8: now he's threatening India with fifty percent tariffs because India

3228
03:00:07,959 --> 03:00:10,120
Speaker 8: has been buying oil from Russia that India's tariffs are

3229
03:00:10,120 --> 03:00:13,160
Speaker 8: currently a twenty five percent. He has also just straight

3230
03:00:13,240 --> 03:00:15,959
Speaker 8: up imposed to fifty percent tariff on Brazil for refusing

3231
03:00:16,000 --> 03:00:19,400
Speaker 8: to release Bolsonaro. There's been some updates on that front

3232
03:00:19,480 --> 03:00:22,640
Speaker 8: where Lula is just straight up refusing to do direct

3233
03:00:22,680 --> 03:00:24,960
Speaker 8: talks at the US. Lula had an exclusive interview with

3234
03:00:25,080 --> 03:00:28,800
Speaker 8: Reuters where he said, quote, we had already pardoned the

3235
03:00:28,920 --> 03:00:31,600
Speaker 8: US interventions in the nineteen sixty four coup, said Lula,

3236
03:00:31,640 --> 03:00:34,160
Speaker 8: who got his political stri blah blah. Listen, listen to

3237
03:00:34,200 --> 03:00:36,720
Speaker 8: the Lula episodes we did, They're very good. More more

3238
03:00:36,800 --> 03:00:39,240
Speaker 8: Lula quote, but this is now not a small intervention.

3239
03:00:39,400 --> 03:00:41,400
Speaker 8: It's the president of the United States thinking he can

3240
03:00:41,520 --> 03:00:45,520
Speaker 8: dictate rules for a sovereign country like Brazil, it's unacceptable.

3241
03:00:45,959 --> 03:00:48,360
Speaker 8: It's worth noting that this is actually a pretty massive

3242
03:00:49,040 --> 03:00:52,320
Speaker 8: change for like Lula specifically relations with the US. Lula

3243
03:00:52,400 --> 03:00:55,600
Speaker 8: actually had very good relations with George Bush. But he

3244
03:00:55,760 --> 03:01:00,000
Speaker 8: is writing a massive tide of Brazilian anti American nationalists,

3245
03:01:00,240 --> 03:01:03,320
Speaker 8: and he's attempting to spread this tide elsewhere.

3246
03:01:03,400 --> 03:01:03,520
Speaker 5: Right.

3247
03:01:03,600 --> 03:01:07,600
Speaker 8: He's been specifically saying that he's calling on organized resistance

3248
03:01:07,600 --> 03:01:10,039
Speaker 8: from particularly India and China. But the rest of bricks,

3249
03:01:10,640 --> 03:01:14,439
Speaker 8: which is a well, okay, bricks was originally a category

3250
03:01:14,480 --> 03:01:18,440
Speaker 8: of assets that's now kind of a vaguely a political alliance.

3251
03:01:18,480 --> 03:01:21,920
Speaker 8: Who's made members are Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa.

3252
03:01:22,480 --> 03:01:25,560
Speaker 8: It's unclear if this will happen. I kind of I

3253
03:01:25,560 --> 03:01:29,400
Speaker 8: don't know, but Lula is the first person really really

3254
03:01:29,520 --> 03:01:32,680
Speaker 8: seriously trying to organize resistance to this outside of the EU.

3255
03:01:33,760 --> 03:01:36,040
Speaker 8: The EU's also wonder a thread of thirty percent tariffs

3256
03:01:36,040 --> 03:01:38,359
Speaker 8: if they don't just sort of like see the Trump's demands.

3257
03:01:38,440 --> 03:01:41,560
Speaker 8: But like you know, again, India also negotiated a deal

3258
03:01:41,600 --> 03:01:43,960
Speaker 8: with the US and then immediately got their tariffs, like

3259
03:01:44,080 --> 03:01:46,120
Speaker 8: he's now being threatened with eighty percent tariffs, so you

3260
03:01:46,200 --> 03:01:50,000
Speaker 8: can't negotiate with him to escape this. So I don't know, Lula,

3261
03:01:50,080 --> 03:01:52,200
Speaker 8: maybe this is the beginning of sort of organized, like

3262
03:01:52,360 --> 03:01:56,440
Speaker 8: large scale organized terriff resistance to the US being framed

3263
03:01:56,480 --> 03:01:59,160
Speaker 8: in this sort of like collective struggle versus the US thing.

3264
03:01:59,360 --> 03:02:01,560
Speaker 8: That's an interesting political trend that will be following as

3265
03:02:01,600 --> 03:02:06,360
Speaker 8: all of this continues. Okay, and the rest of the

3266
03:02:07,240 --> 03:02:09,880
Speaker 8: unhinged amount of tariff news we're going to be covering Monday.

3267
03:02:10,600 --> 03:02:13,440
Speaker 8: I will make a brief note that the Yale Budget

3268
03:02:13,520 --> 03:02:16,440
Speaker 8: Lab is estimating like like a twenty four hundred dollars

3269
03:02:16,480 --> 03:02:18,680
Speaker 8: increase for the average family just in terms of like

3270
03:02:19,080 --> 03:02:24,240
Speaker 8: inflation prices for this, especially on things like clothing. They

3271
03:02:24,240 --> 03:02:26,520
Speaker 8: are specifically, I think there's a Ceneta articleipus. They're specifically

3272
03:02:26,560 --> 03:02:30,800
Speaker 8: talking about running shorts and shoes and anything any goods

3273
03:02:30,840 --> 03:02:34,199
Speaker 8: from South Asia massively increasing in price at talking thirty

3274
03:02:34,200 --> 03:02:38,840
Speaker 8: percent increases very quickly. So yeah, now, obviously all of

3275
03:02:38,920 --> 03:02:42,480
Speaker 8: this news is I don't know, the stock market has

3276
03:02:42,560 --> 03:02:46,720
Speaker 8: kind of like accustomed itself to tariff news. Yeah, but COMA,

3277
03:02:46,760 --> 03:02:49,680
Speaker 8: we've got a really really bad job support last month, and.

3278
03:02:50,120 --> 03:02:52,959
Speaker 10: Well actually, well well I don't know if that's true.

3279
03:02:53,120 --> 03:02:56,520
Speaker 10: I think the jobs report could be completely faked. Yeah,

3280
03:02:56,560 --> 03:02:59,280
Speaker 10: who can say, Jesus, if the president says it, it

3281
03:02:59,360 --> 03:03:02,240
Speaker 10: has to be true. It's a Biden did you have

3282
03:03:02,240 --> 03:03:06,359
Speaker 10: a Biden appointee? All crazy crazy.

3283
03:03:06,560 --> 03:03:12,600
Speaker 8: The auto pen is issued to his job's report. So yeah, Trump,

3284
03:03:12,640 --> 03:03:16,120
Speaker 8: Trump has fired the Commission of the Bureau of Labor

3285
03:03:16,120 --> 03:03:19,840
Speaker 8: Statistics for releasing this report. We are just we are

3286
03:03:20,000 --> 03:03:22,960
Speaker 8: just truly fully into the deep end of shit now,

3287
03:03:23,200 --> 03:03:23,720
Speaker 8: Like the.

3288
03:03:23,800 --> 03:03:27,440
Speaker 10: Report just showed that we didn't have very positive job grouths,

3289
03:03:27,520 --> 03:03:30,040
Speaker 10: and like anyone who's trying to get a job right

3290
03:03:30,080 --> 03:03:31,120
Speaker 10: now can confirm that.

3291
03:03:31,320 --> 03:03:33,680
Speaker 8: It's like a nightmare. Yeah, and yeah, we're just like

3292
03:03:33,760 --> 03:03:37,200
Speaker 8: we're just like fully going to be in Like, you know,

3293
03:03:37,720 --> 03:03:41,160
Speaker 8: it's unclear exactly how fast American data collection capacity is

3294
03:03:41,200 --> 03:03:43,080
Speaker 8: going to degrade. It is worth noting this is the

3295
03:03:43,120 --> 03:03:44,840
Speaker 8: thing that kind of happens at the end of dictatorships

3296
03:03:44,879 --> 03:03:47,200
Speaker 8: when they really start going to shit, is that they

3297
03:03:47,320 --> 03:03:49,560
Speaker 8: lose the ability to trust their artistical apparatus.

3298
03:03:50,040 --> 03:03:52,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, like anything that happens that Trump just

3299
03:03:53,040 --> 03:03:55,120
Speaker 10: doesn't like, you can claim it's fake and rigged.

3300
03:03:55,480 --> 03:03:56,760
Speaker 8: Whether that's losing an election.

3301
03:03:57,200 --> 03:04:01,359
Speaker 10: Whether that's his good, his good close personal friend Jeffrey Epstein,

3302
03:04:01,680 --> 03:04:04,199
Speaker 10: or if that's a Bureau of Labor Statistics job report,

3303
03:04:04,640 --> 03:04:06,280
Speaker 10: it's all rigged. It's all a hope.

3304
03:04:06,360 --> 03:04:06,520
Speaker 9: Yeah.

3305
03:04:06,879 --> 03:04:07,080
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3306
03:04:07,280 --> 03:04:09,360
Speaker 8: But to tie this back to Lula for a second,

3307
03:04:09,440 --> 03:04:12,680
Speaker 8: I think it's actually really a really interesting historical parallel

3308
03:04:12,720 --> 03:04:17,160
Speaker 8: that's worth noting that Lula's rise to political prominence came

3309
03:04:17,320 --> 03:04:20,000
Speaker 8: off of a series of shrikes that was held because

3310
03:04:20,600 --> 03:04:22,840
Speaker 8: because a bunch of economists that were working with the

3311
03:04:22,879 --> 03:04:25,840
Speaker 8: inside the Brazilian labor unions figured out the military dictatorship

3312
03:04:25,840 --> 03:04:28,600
Speaker 8: of Brazil had been faking their inflation numbers, and like,

3313
03:04:28,879 --> 03:04:30,400
Speaker 8: this is one of the things that caused the end

3314
03:04:30,440 --> 03:04:33,600
Speaker 8: of the dictatorship. So you know, you can only lie

3315
03:04:33,640 --> 03:04:37,039
Speaker 8: about the inflation rate for so long before like someone

3316
03:04:37,200 --> 03:04:39,720
Speaker 8: goes like, hey, you've been lying about this the whole time,

3317
03:04:40,120 --> 03:04:42,760
Speaker 8: and I don't know this has this has brought down

3318
03:04:42,840 --> 03:04:45,440
Speaker 8: military katters just before, and that's why we have to

3319
03:04:45,560 --> 03:04:48,920
Speaker 8: hold archive of our own accountable for faking those inflation numbers.

3320
03:04:49,480 --> 03:04:51,000
Speaker 2: I agree with you entirely, Garrison.

3321
03:04:51,040 --> 03:04:53,000
Speaker 8: I don't get paid enough for this. He's lost me

3322
03:04:54,320 --> 03:04:57,240
Speaker 8: not following and yeah, that has been terriff talk.

3323
03:04:58,040 --> 03:05:00,440
Speaker 4: You know what will continue to be of available to

3324
03:05:00,520 --> 03:05:05,800
Speaker 4: our listeners at an excellent price despite tariffs, the products

3325
03:05:05,800 --> 03:05:10,040
Speaker 4: and services that support this podcast. That's absolutely correct, Garrison,

3326
03:05:10,080 --> 03:05:26,400
Speaker 4: well done. All right, we're back, so bad And also

3327
03:05:26,600 --> 03:05:30,480
Speaker 4: back is the United Kingdom, where a poll shows that

3328
03:05:30,600 --> 03:05:33,039
Speaker 4: more than half of Britain's think there are more migrants

3329
03:05:33,120 --> 03:05:36,880
Speaker 4: in the UK illegally than legally. This isn't true, no,

3330
03:05:37,080 --> 03:05:40,680
Speaker 4: but feelings matter way more than facts. Failings matter, yes

3331
03:05:40,760 --> 03:05:44,200
Speaker 4: they do. The actual data, even at the highest estimate

3332
03:05:44,240 --> 03:05:47,520
Speaker 4: of undocumented people, shows that it's around ten times more

3333
03:05:47,560 --> 03:05:50,760
Speaker 4: foreign people who are in the UK with documents. This

3334
03:05:50,959 --> 03:05:55,240
Speaker 4: is indicative of a broader issue, right that the discussions

3335
03:05:55,520 --> 03:05:58,840
Speaker 4: we're having around immigration are nearly all based on massive

3336
03:05:58,879 --> 03:06:04,440
Speaker 4: amounts of misinformy. Misinformation by a mission was extremely common

3337
03:06:04,560 --> 03:06:09,160
Speaker 4: in legacy media until very recently, right like, there was

3338
03:06:09,200 --> 03:06:14,480
Speaker 4: simply not people covering immigration in a serious fashion. Even

3339
03:06:14,560 --> 03:06:20,320
Speaker 4: in the Biden administration, the reporting that was done was atrocious.

3340
03:06:21,120 --> 03:06:23,440
Speaker 4: This comes as the Labor government's disapproval rating in the

3341
03:06:23,560 --> 03:06:27,039
Speaker 4: UK hit sixty seven percent in a yugo of pol

3342
03:06:27,440 --> 03:06:30,280
Speaker 4: which I think is very indicative. What Labor did right

3343
03:06:30,400 --> 03:06:33,080
Speaker 4: was try to adopt right wing culture war positions to

3344
03:06:33,480 --> 03:06:37,000
Speaker 4: get people to vote for them, and it does not work,

3345
03:06:37,080 --> 03:06:39,160
Speaker 4: and it is not working for them. You can look

3346
03:06:39,160 --> 03:06:42,440
Speaker 4: at their policies towards trans people, right, they're atrocious, and

3347
03:06:42,600 --> 03:06:45,840
Speaker 4: it's not buying them to favor they wanted to moving

3348
03:06:45,959 --> 03:06:49,560
Speaker 4: back to the United States. Yon sou Go, she's called

3349
03:06:49,840 --> 03:06:53,080
Speaker 4: Sue by her friends. It's been released by Ice after

3350
03:06:53,160 --> 03:06:55,959
Speaker 4: being detained at a routine hearing. A twenty year old

3351
03:06:56,080 --> 03:07:00,240
Speaker 4: young woman as a Korean national South Korean evidently right,

3352
03:07:00,560 --> 03:07:02,720
Speaker 4: and the daughter of a priest. So she's here on

3353
03:07:03,600 --> 03:07:07,400
Speaker 4: a visa as a dependent of a religious worker. There

3354
03:07:07,400 --> 03:07:09,879
Speaker 4: are religious worker visas, and she's here as a dependent.

3355
03:07:10,280 --> 03:07:12,640
Speaker 4: She is I believe in the process of transitioning to

3356
03:07:12,800 --> 03:07:18,400
Speaker 4: a student visa. She had the hearing, her case wasn't

3357
03:07:18,760 --> 03:07:22,120
Speaker 4: dismissed or evoked. She had another hearing set for October.

3358
03:07:22,840 --> 03:07:25,800
Speaker 4: I claim that she overstayed her visa. Her lawyer says,

3359
03:07:25,840 --> 03:07:28,880
Speaker 4: I claim it's not true. I'm particularly interested in this

3360
03:07:29,080 --> 03:07:33,720
Speaker 4: case because of the intervention of the diocese, the Episcopalian

3361
03:07:33,800 --> 03:07:36,800
Speaker 4: Diocese of New York, and so it was the Episcopalian

3362
03:07:36,840 --> 03:07:40,000
Speaker 4: Diocese New York's legal team who fought for her release.

3363
03:07:40,400 --> 03:07:43,520
Speaker 4: She was very quickly moved to Louisiana. We know that

3364
03:07:43,760 --> 03:07:45,520
Speaker 4: ICE likes so do this right. It likes to move

3365
03:07:45,560 --> 03:07:47,600
Speaker 4: people to places where it feels like it has a

3366
03:07:47,680 --> 03:07:50,720
Speaker 4: favorable circuit court. The dioces of legal team was able

3367
03:07:50,840 --> 03:07:52,880
Speaker 4: to secure her release, but they are still working on

3368
03:07:52,959 --> 03:07:54,760
Speaker 4: the rease of a fifty nine year old ProView and

3369
03:07:54,760 --> 03:07:57,720
Speaker 4: asylum seeker who has been detained after having her court

3370
03:07:57,800 --> 03:07:59,920
Speaker 4: date moved up. So in her case, they said, hey,

3371
03:08:00,040 --> 03:08:02,400
Speaker 4: we've got a hearing that's opened up. When don't you

3372
03:08:02,440 --> 03:08:05,440
Speaker 4: come in on Thursday and then detained her, which is

3373
03:08:05,600 --> 03:08:09,360
Speaker 4: just reprehensible. It is really good. I think that these

3374
03:08:09,480 --> 03:08:14,040
Speaker 4: big religious organizations are getting involved directly in these cases,

3375
03:08:14,120 --> 03:08:17,000
Speaker 4: that they are taking on responsibility, that they're using their

3376
03:08:17,040 --> 03:08:21,280
Speaker 4: pulpits as a place to oppose this. I think that's good.

3377
03:08:21,400 --> 03:08:24,560
Speaker 4: I think, regardless of your stance, aren't organized religion, you

3378
03:08:24,600 --> 03:08:27,640
Speaker 4: should be happy about that. These are institutions that have

3379
03:08:27,720 --> 03:08:31,600
Speaker 4: power in this country. Talking of institutions that have power,

3380
03:08:31,879 --> 03:08:36,640
Speaker 4: detainees in Florida's Alligator Alcatraz are being denied their right

3381
03:08:36,720 --> 03:08:40,480
Speaker 4: to file court documents because federal courts are claiming they're

3382
03:08:40,560 --> 03:08:44,600
Speaker 4: not under federal jurisdiction. State courts are claiming they're not

3383
03:08:44,680 --> 03:08:47,240
Speaker 4: under state jurisdiction, which is fairly reasonable given that they

3384
03:08:47,800 --> 03:08:50,680
Speaker 4: have not been charged, whether or accused of, in many cases,

3385
03:08:50,720 --> 03:08:53,080
Speaker 4: any crimes in the state of Florida. Right then, they're

3386
03:08:53,120 --> 03:08:55,959
Speaker 4: not being held They were not detained by well, sometimes

3387
03:08:56,000 --> 03:08:57,960
Speaker 4: they were detained by Florida law enforcement, I guess, but

3388
03:08:58,040 --> 03:09:00,720
Speaker 4: only in their capacity to enforce federal immigrates law. Yes,

3389
03:09:01,600 --> 03:09:04,680
Speaker 4: with the special deputized nawty, Yes, it's yeah, it's deputies,

3390
03:09:04,720 --> 03:09:06,720
Speaker 4: which we're about to talk about. There have been some

3391
03:09:06,840 --> 03:09:09,680
Speaker 4: very funny outcomes of that. This isn't it like I've

3392
03:09:09,720 --> 03:09:11,760
Speaker 4: seen it report as a loophole. It's not a loophole.

3393
03:09:12,040 --> 03:09:14,920
Speaker 4: It's extremely fucking clear that they were detained by the

3394
03:09:15,000 --> 03:09:20,000
Speaker 4: federal government for immigration reasons, and they have every right

3395
03:09:20,120 --> 03:09:24,240
Speaker 4: to representation in immigration court right that this is not

3396
03:09:24,320 --> 03:09:29,400
Speaker 4: a loophole. They're just denying people their rights, and I

3397
03:09:29,480 --> 03:09:32,920
Speaker 4: think reporting it as a loophole is entirely ridiculous. A

3398
03:09:33,000 --> 03:09:35,640
Speaker 4: judge has ordered a document showing who is contracted by

3399
03:09:35,680 --> 03:09:37,840
Speaker 4: whom at the facility be produced as part of a

3400
03:09:37,879 --> 03:09:40,560
Speaker 4: civil rights lawsuit. So what that will do would obviously

3401
03:09:40,640 --> 03:09:42,599
Speaker 4: document in the federal government's.

3402
03:09:42,120 --> 03:09:43,360
Speaker 2: Paying some of this.

3403
03:09:43,600 --> 03:09:47,879
Speaker 4: I know Rick DeSantis had wanted to use FEMA money

3404
03:09:48,120 --> 03:09:51,760
Speaker 4: for some of this breaking news. So Federal Judge Kathleen

3405
03:09:51,800 --> 03:09:57,360
Speaker 4: Williams has ordered the construction new construction holt. They won't

3406
03:09:57,360 --> 03:09:59,520
Speaker 4: be allowed to do any new filling, paving, or infrastructre

3407
03:09:59,520 --> 03:10:04,320
Speaker 4: building for fourteen days temporary pause. They can still continue

3408
03:10:04,360 --> 03:10:07,120
Speaker 4: to hold people right like. This is not going to

3409
03:10:07,160 --> 03:10:10,360
Speaker 4: stop those people being denied their rights, which is what

3410
03:10:10,520 --> 03:10:12,879
Speaker 4: sort of stake here. So we talked a little bit

3411
03:10:12,920 --> 03:10:16,600
Speaker 4: about those Florida deputies right who have been I guess

3412
03:10:16,680 --> 03:10:20,680
Speaker 4: secondid to ICE orgs. They've been crossworn to do ICE work.

3413
03:10:21,080 --> 03:10:24,440
Speaker 4: ICE is recruiting very heavily right now. I'm offering fifty

3414
03:10:24,520 --> 03:10:29,040
Speaker 4: thousand dollars sign on bonuses. It has reduced the minimum

3415
03:10:29,120 --> 03:10:31,880
Speaker 4: age and it seems to have no maximum age cap.

3416
03:10:32,640 --> 03:10:35,200
Speaker 4: From what I can tell, this thing. Border Patrol has

3417
03:10:35,240 --> 03:10:37,920
Speaker 4: been issuing all kinds of waivers for years, right for

3418
03:10:37,959 --> 03:10:39,840
Speaker 4: all kinds of things that it's supposed to have as

3419
03:10:39,920 --> 03:10:42,480
Speaker 4: like standard for its recruiting. So it isn't particularly new.

3420
03:10:43,240 --> 03:10:45,720
Speaker 4: ICE has been known for a while as kind of

3421
03:10:45,840 --> 03:10:48,080
Speaker 4: if you want to be a FED and go around

3422
03:10:48,080 --> 03:10:51,120
Speaker 4: and carry a gun, and you can't get hired to

3423
03:10:51,240 --> 03:10:54,040
Speaker 4: do gun stuff for the FED. To other agencies, ICE

3424
03:10:54,160 --> 03:10:56,080
Speaker 4: is probably the place you're going to end up, right,

3425
03:10:56,760 --> 03:11:00,280
Speaker 4: their standards are lower than other agencies.

3426
03:11:00,120 --> 03:11:03,840
Speaker 10: And now they're like specifically selecting for the most like

3427
03:11:04,040 --> 03:11:08,119
Speaker 10: online unhinged right wing free to join their agency as

3428
03:11:08,240 --> 03:11:11,080
Speaker 10: like a national police force. Yes, and that's like what

3429
03:11:11,200 --> 03:11:15,000
Speaker 10: they're doing in their messaging online. And also some news

3430
03:11:15,080 --> 03:11:18,720
Speaker 10: this week Dean Kane has has joined I. Yeah, yeah,

3431
03:11:18,959 --> 03:11:23,640
Speaker 10: it's most likely in like a promotional capacity, but still

3432
03:11:23,800 --> 03:11:24,400
Speaker 10: worth noting.

3433
03:11:24,640 --> 03:11:27,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, you might get chased by middle aged superman. So

3434
03:11:28,200 --> 03:11:30,480
Speaker 4: let's talk about what I was doing to recruiter festival.

3435
03:11:30,600 --> 03:11:34,720
Speaker 4: It is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on big trucks.

3436
03:11:35,080 --> 03:11:37,160
Speaker 4: We know Donald Trump himself, it's a found of big trucks,

3437
03:11:37,280 --> 03:11:40,280
Speaker 4: many pictures of him enjoying big trucks. Over the years,

3438
03:11:40,879 --> 03:11:43,520
Speaker 4: ICE has spent one hundred and ninety six thousand dollars

3439
03:11:43,680 --> 03:11:48,080
Speaker 4: on Ford raptors for recruiting purposes. The raptor, for those

3440
03:11:48,200 --> 03:11:50,360
Speaker 4: not familiar, is like a tricked out F one fifty.

3441
03:11:50,840 --> 03:11:54,120
Speaker 4: They were issuing raptors to field agents for a while.

3442
03:11:54,640 --> 03:11:56,880
Speaker 4: They're not the best vehicles. Like, I've had plenty of

3443
03:11:56,920 --> 03:11:58,320
Speaker 4: agents complain about the raptism.

3444
03:11:58,480 --> 03:12:00,360
Speaker 2: Yeah they're not yeah, yeah know.

3445
03:12:00,400 --> 03:12:04,440
Speaker 4: And the BP had a special lowest possible trim of

3446
03:12:04,520 --> 03:12:07,200
Speaker 4: the raptor that like, they're popular now because people will

3447
03:12:07,200 --> 03:12:09,400
Speaker 4: buy them used as government surplus and make them good.

3448
03:12:09,480 --> 03:12:12,960
Speaker 4: But they yeah, the raptors they had didn't work too well.

3449
03:12:13,040 --> 03:12:16,440
Speaker 4: They also bought a GMC Yukon for one hundred and

3450
03:12:16,600 --> 03:12:21,080
Speaker 4: one thousand dollars, which is a very expensive GMC Yukon.

3451
03:12:21,640 --> 03:12:25,600
Speaker 4: I have also noted that ICE is recruiting from the

3452
03:12:25,800 --> 03:12:29,160
Speaker 4: police who have been cross sworn into doing ICE enforcement.

3453
03:12:29,520 --> 03:12:33,000
Speaker 4: This has resulted in some very funny beefs between agencies

3454
03:12:33,360 --> 03:12:36,680
Speaker 4: including can I share this video? Can I screenshare?

3455
03:12:37,280 --> 03:12:37,480
Speaker 5: Yeah?

3456
03:12:37,840 --> 03:12:39,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's that's what's the video.

3457
03:12:39,520 --> 03:12:42,959
Speaker 12: And then what has happened is ICE has sent emails

3458
03:12:43,080 --> 03:12:46,720
Speaker 12: to I don't know how many agencies by no, several agencies.

3459
03:12:46,760 --> 03:12:50,160
Speaker 12: I've talked to several sheriffs that their debuts have received

3460
03:12:50,200 --> 03:12:54,039
Speaker 12: these this request and basically it's a recruiting tactic. It's hey,

3461
03:12:54,400 --> 03:12:57,880
Speaker 12: we got your email, now you got certified, And there's

3462
03:12:57,920 --> 03:13:00,600
Speaker 12: something like dear colleague, you showed an interest in this

3463
03:13:00,800 --> 03:13:02,440
Speaker 12: and that, and we won't let you know that we

3464
03:13:02,520 --> 03:13:06,600
Speaker 12: are offering a fifty thousand dollars bonus paid ten thousand

3465
03:13:06,600 --> 03:13:07,840
Speaker 12: dollars at a time, and it.

3466
03:13:08,000 --> 03:13:11,080
Speaker 5: Is for five years. Obviously, man, is that not you know?

3467
03:13:11,160 --> 03:13:12,200
Speaker 7: Biden handed feeds you.

3468
03:13:12,320 --> 03:13:15,560
Speaker 12: We we went through all of that, took our time,

3469
03:13:15,800 --> 03:13:18,520
Speaker 12: utilizing our local resource, not ours yet.

3470
03:13:18,520 --> 03:13:21,600
Speaker 5: But local resources. And then they try to recruit you right.

3471
03:13:21,520 --> 03:13:24,000
Speaker 12: Out for Monday, using the very emails that we give you.

3472
03:13:24,840 --> 03:13:26,680
Speaker 8: Finally they've found something bad.

3473
03:13:26,800 --> 03:13:27,480
Speaker 4: Ice is done.

3474
03:13:28,480 --> 03:13:31,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, this is a new low even for Ice.

3475
03:13:31,879 --> 03:13:35,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, Sheriff Chip simmons that calling Ice out for that

3476
03:13:36,000 --> 03:13:36,680
Speaker 4: poor form.

3477
03:13:37,000 --> 03:13:41,640
Speaker 10: Sheriff Chip finally found something that shows the true depraperty,

3478
03:13:41,800 --> 03:13:43,520
Speaker 10: a compromised heart of Ice.

3479
03:13:43,920 --> 03:13:44,720
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah.

3480
03:13:45,920 --> 03:13:46,880
Speaker 2: Where will they stop?

3481
03:13:47,440 --> 03:13:49,480
Speaker 4: Well, let's talk about where they will stop or at

3482
03:13:49,520 --> 03:13:54,000
Speaker 4: least start spending. Ice has been spending some money this week.

3483
03:13:54,680 --> 03:13:56,800
Speaker 4: Some of this, I think, like some of the sort

3484
03:13:56,840 --> 03:14:00,520
Speaker 4: of reporting on IFC isn't hugely responsible. So like I

3485
03:14:00,520 --> 03:14:03,000
Speaker 4: as to sign a sole source contract with B two

3486
03:14:03,080 --> 03:14:07,360
Speaker 4: Technologies for example, for quote licenses for the inmate identification

3487
03:14:07,480 --> 03:14:12,080
Speaker 4: A recognition system and the mobile offender Recognition Information System.

3488
03:14:12,680 --> 03:14:15,680
Speaker 4: They call these IRIS and MORRIS based on their initials. Right,

3489
03:14:16,040 --> 03:14:18,520
Speaker 4: these are for ers, so that's their enforcement and removal

3490
03:14:18,560 --> 03:14:21,640
Speaker 4: operations brands BO two pitches. IRIS is being able to

3491
03:14:21,680 --> 03:14:24,960
Speaker 4: identify people with no physical contact based on the tears

3492
03:14:25,040 --> 03:14:29,240
Speaker 4: in their IRIS. This technology has been used by police

3493
03:14:29,400 --> 03:14:32,120
Speaker 4: for a while, so you'll notice it was called the

3494
03:14:32,280 --> 03:14:35,160
Speaker 4: inmate identification so that the way they would obtain these

3495
03:14:35,200 --> 03:14:40,039
Speaker 4: Irish scans would be scanning people who were detained. CBP

3496
03:14:40,440 --> 03:14:44,600
Speaker 4: will also have IRIS scans so well. Uscis right. This

3497
03:14:44,760 --> 03:14:47,360
Speaker 4: is one of the pieces of biometric data that's sometimes

3498
03:14:47,440 --> 03:14:50,200
Speaker 4: collected from migrants as part of their process and moving

3499
03:14:50,240 --> 03:14:53,200
Speaker 4: into the United States and then getting their documents, etc.

3500
03:14:54,000 --> 03:14:57,560
Speaker 4: What MORRIS will do is allow them to search a

3501
03:14:57,640 --> 03:15:01,680
Speaker 4: registry of previous offenders. In twenty twenty four, Niagara County

3502
03:15:01,720 --> 03:15:04,879
Speaker 4: Sheriff's Office were the first sheriff's office to add IRIS

3503
03:15:04,920 --> 03:15:08,120
Speaker 4: to their vehicles. But a feeling reported as this is

3504
03:15:08,680 --> 03:15:10,800
Speaker 4: as a CBP officer or ice officers are going to

3505
03:15:10,800 --> 03:15:14,000
Speaker 4: be scanning people's arises with their phones. I don't see

3506
03:15:14,040 --> 03:15:18,480
Speaker 4: any evidence of that technology existing either in the contract

3507
03:15:18,560 --> 03:15:21,080
Speaker 4: that the government has or on the website for the

3508
03:15:21,160 --> 03:15:24,320
Speaker 4: company that makes it. And guessing what this will do

3509
03:15:24,760 --> 03:15:27,280
Speaker 4: is if they have somebody who for instance, has previously

3510
03:15:27,360 --> 03:15:31,119
Speaker 4: been detained, somebody who has done time and come out,

3511
03:15:31,680 --> 03:15:33,640
Speaker 4: then they will users to like as a web of

3512
03:15:33,680 --> 03:15:36,560
Speaker 4: identifying them right when after they've detained them, before they

3513
03:15:36,640 --> 03:15:39,440
Speaker 4: take them to wherever. The big issue here, right, is

3514
03:15:39,480 --> 03:15:42,800
Speaker 4: that B two owns this database of scants. So this

3515
03:15:42,959 --> 03:15:46,680
Speaker 4: database includes Morris right, which is previous people who have

3516
03:15:46,760 --> 03:15:50,480
Speaker 4: previous offenders. They have a sex offender registry within it.

3517
03:15:50,959 --> 03:15:54,080
Speaker 4: They also have databases of seniors who are at risk

3518
03:15:54,200 --> 03:15:56,240
Speaker 4: for going missing, so that I think there's people with

3519
03:15:56,320 --> 03:15:59,400
Speaker 4: dementia that people can voluntarily sign up to. And they

3520
03:15:59,440 --> 03:16:02,480
Speaker 4: have a data of missing children as well. They are

3521
03:16:02,560 --> 03:16:05,480
Speaker 4: two interesting company. They also they offer a bunch of

3522
03:16:05,760 --> 03:16:08,800
Speaker 4: services for detention companies. They previously partnered with the support

3523
03:16:08,840 --> 03:16:12,680
Speaker 4: our Sheriff's Foundation to provide lower cost prescriptions to sheriffs

3524
03:16:12,720 --> 03:16:16,480
Speaker 4: and deputies. They're pretty embedded in this law enforcement world.

3525
03:16:16,920 --> 03:16:20,000
Speaker 4: Other contracts they saw for ice new tech solutions for

3526
03:16:20,160 --> 03:16:25,000
Speaker 4: fingerprint scanners. Again, fingerprint information is routinely taken from migrants

3527
03:16:25,120 --> 03:16:28,279
Speaker 4: and many one people getting green cards, people getting visas,

3528
03:16:28,320 --> 03:16:31,560
Speaker 4: people getting citizenship. Yes, yeah, anyone who has in any

3529
03:16:31,680 --> 03:16:35,879
Speaker 4: capacity and really engaged with uscis like all those categories

3530
03:16:35,920 --> 03:16:38,520
Speaker 4: you mentioned, Garrison will have already done this. They did

3531
03:16:38,560 --> 03:16:42,640
Speaker 4: also purchase gray Key, which is more concerning, which is

3532
03:16:42,840 --> 03:16:46,160
Speaker 4: for breaking into cell phones locked cell phones. Yes, it's

3533
03:16:46,240 --> 03:16:48,039
Speaker 4: trying to get around the lock on your cell phone.

3534
03:16:48,520 --> 03:16:51,880
Speaker 4: I've written about grey Key before for Input magazine. Generally,

3535
03:16:51,959 --> 03:16:54,600
Speaker 4: the way they do this is that they try and

3536
03:16:54,680 --> 03:16:56,080
Speaker 4: make a copy of the cell phone and work on

3537
03:16:56,160 --> 03:16:57,480
Speaker 4: a copy so they don't get locked out of your

3538
03:16:57,520 --> 03:17:00,760
Speaker 4: cell phone. But grey Key is an extremely various piece

3539
03:17:00,800 --> 03:17:03,879
Speaker 4: of technology for breaking into people's phones which you otherwise

3540
03:17:03,879 --> 03:17:06,760
Speaker 4: wouldn't be able to access. So yeah, that is that

3541
03:17:06,920 --> 03:17:10,240
Speaker 4: is what I have for ices spending spree this week.

3542
03:17:10,920 --> 03:17:14,400
Speaker 10: For our last story I related to also talk about technology,

3543
03:17:14,480 --> 03:17:19,880
Speaker 10: but technology in the news some some AI incidents that

3544
03:17:20,000 --> 03:17:25,560
Speaker 10: have broken into people's news news gathering process. Former CNN

3545
03:17:25,640 --> 03:17:29,840
Speaker 10: anchor Chris Clomo has shared a fake AI video of

3546
03:17:30,080 --> 03:17:33,920
Speaker 10: AOC giving a speech in Congress calling out the Sydney

3547
03:17:34,040 --> 03:17:37,400
Speaker 10: Sweety American Eagle ad as racist.

3548
03:17:37,720 --> 03:17:39,720
Speaker 2: Damn it, I got to see this. Why does it

3549
03:17:39,840 --> 03:17:41,600
Speaker 2: have to all be so stupid?

3550
03:17:42,000 --> 03:17:43,920
Speaker 13: I was tweeting today and saw a clip of AOC

3551
03:17:44,160 --> 03:17:49,200
Speaker 13: saying that Sydney sweeneyad was racist, and so I replied

3552
03:17:49,240 --> 03:17:50,760
Speaker 13: to it, and I said, why do you care about

3553
03:17:50,800 --> 03:17:52,640
Speaker 13: this and ignore what matters most?

3554
03:17:53,440 --> 03:17:55,560
Speaker 5: Why in all the times that you've.

3555
03:17:55,440 --> 03:17:57,959
Speaker 13: Called on Israel to stop, why have you never told

3556
03:17:58,000 --> 03:18:02,920
Speaker 13: Hamas to stop, told Moss to surrender? Why would you

3557
03:18:03,040 --> 03:18:05,600
Speaker 13: ignore the Saint Louis attack on that Jewish guy who

3558
03:18:05,640 --> 03:18:10,039
Speaker 13: had his car bomb. AOC tweeted back and said, dude,

3559
03:18:10,680 --> 03:18:12,920
Speaker 13: that's a deep fake that Sidney tweety.

3560
03:18:13,280 --> 03:18:17,760
Speaker 8: You suck in so many words, and she was right,

3561
03:18:18,280 --> 03:18:18,760
Speaker 8: they got me.

3562
03:18:20,520 --> 03:18:25,320
Speaker 2: She was right, I suck. He has been owned. That's

3563
03:18:25,400 --> 03:18:27,240
Speaker 2: not bad, that's pretty good. That's funny.

3564
03:18:27,800 --> 03:18:29,680
Speaker 8: I chose to I chose to cut off the click there.

3565
03:18:31,040 --> 03:18:33,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's the right place for it to go.

3566
03:18:35,000 --> 03:18:38,640
Speaker 10: On this AI video of AOC. It is clearly like

3567
03:18:39,120 --> 03:18:41,400
Speaker 10: like in Boston into the video himself. This is an

3568
03:18:41,440 --> 03:18:47,040
Speaker 10: AI video from from chat GPT memes plus AI art

3569
03:18:47,240 --> 03:18:47,959
Speaker 10: on Instagram.

3570
03:18:50,560 --> 03:18:54,800
Speaker 4: Fucking this, this guy is being elevated as a fucking journalist.

3571
03:18:55,520 --> 03:18:56,880
Speaker 4: Jesus wept.

3572
03:18:57,080 --> 03:19:00,240
Speaker 10: He later said on on Newstation on his show They

3573
03:19:00,360 --> 03:19:02,959
Speaker 10: Got Me AI. It was really good and it did

3574
03:19:03,080 --> 03:19:06,240
Speaker 10: seem like something she would say, I'm gonna now play

3575
03:19:06,480 --> 03:19:09,640
Speaker 10: yeah video in question to see if you think this

3576
03:19:09,800 --> 03:19:11,600
Speaker 10: is something that AOC would say.

3577
03:19:11,840 --> 03:19:15,240
Speaker 14: Sidney Sweeney looks like an Aryan goddess and the American

3578
03:19:15,320 --> 03:19:21,160
Speaker 14: Eagle Jean's campaign is nazipaganda. I mean fuck watching that

3579
03:19:21,360 --> 03:19:26,040
Speaker 14: sultry little temptress squeeze into a Canadian Technice three silent

3580
03:19:27,400 --> 03:19:29,439
Speaker 14: with her bouncy little fun bags.

3581
03:19:30,240 --> 03:19:36,200
Speaker 8: Staring at you. Oh my god, I don't know no more,

3582
03:19:36,320 --> 03:19:54,720
Speaker 8: no more. In the episode they.

3583
03:19:47,000 --> 03:19:52,720
Speaker 2: Got me, Oh man, what a one of our greatest journalists.

3584
03:19:53,360 --> 03:19:57,680
Speaker 2: You know, AI really has to be. You know, we've

3585
03:19:57,800 --> 03:20:00,800
Speaker 2: hit a g I if it can, it can crack

3586
03:20:00,879 --> 03:20:03,199
Speaker 2: a mind as keen as chrism.

3587
03:20:03,560 --> 03:20:06,080
Speaker 8: It was really good and it did seem like something

3588
03:20:06,200 --> 03:20:06,920
Speaker 8: she would say.

3589
03:20:07,800 --> 03:20:17,680
Speaker 15: Good, even how her voice sounds unbelievable, unbelievable, some one

3590
03:20:17,680 --> 03:20:19,760
Speaker 15: of the most union things I've I've ever seen.

3591
03:20:21,120 --> 03:20:23,440
Speaker 4: To watch that and then wonder why she hasn't commented

3592
03:20:23,520 --> 03:20:26,760
Speaker 4: on hermus in the same breath truating indication of where

3593
03:20:26,760 --> 03:20:27,520
Speaker 4: our country's hat.

3594
03:20:28,400 --> 03:20:31,560
Speaker 10: That AI video is eighty seconds long. It gets so

3595
03:20:31,720 --> 03:20:34,080
Speaker 10: much crazier, but we don't need to say anymore. The

3596
03:20:34,240 --> 03:20:37,640
Speaker 10: other incident of AI in the News. Former CNN chief

3597
03:20:37,640 --> 03:20:42,360
Speaker 10: White It's correspondent Jim Acosta interviewed an AI avatar impersonating

3598
03:20:42,720 --> 03:20:44,360
Speaker 10: a school shooting victim.

3599
03:20:44,480 --> 03:20:47,760
Speaker 4: Oh noess one of those things that like every town

3600
03:20:47,879 --> 03:20:48,720
Speaker 4: or someone was doing.

3601
03:20:49,440 --> 03:20:53,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes, I caught this when it happened. Here's

3602
03:20:53,120 --> 03:20:53,480
Speaker 2: a video.

3603
03:20:54,080 --> 03:20:57,520
Speaker 5: I would like to know what your solution would be

3604
03:20:58,120 --> 03:20:58,959
Speaker 5: for gun violence.

3605
03:21:00,120 --> 03:21:00,680
Speaker 7: Great question.

3606
03:21:01,040 --> 03:21:03,480
Speaker 9: I believe in a mix of stronger gun control laws,

3607
03:21:03,600 --> 03:21:04,879
Speaker 9: mental health support.

3608
03:21:04,600 --> 03:21:05,720
Speaker 5: And community engagement.

3609
03:21:05,840 --> 03:21:09,439
Speaker 2: We need to create safe spaces for conversations and connections,

3610
03:21:09,560 --> 03:21:11,520
Speaker 2: making sure everyone feels seen and heard.

3611
03:21:11,879 --> 03:21:12,879
Speaker 8: It's about building a.

3612
03:21:12,959 --> 03:21:14,600
Speaker 5: Culture of kindness and understanding.

3613
03:21:14,680 --> 03:21:15,480
Speaker 2: What do you think about that.

3614
03:21:16,120 --> 03:21:17,680
Speaker 5: I think that's a great idea, Joaquin.

3615
03:21:17,800 --> 03:21:20,320
Speaker 2: That's not even an answer. That's not an answer.

3616
03:21:22,040 --> 03:21:23,960
Speaker 4: This is one of the good things I've ever seen,

3617
03:21:24,080 --> 03:21:26,080
Speaker 4: create a culture of kindness and understanding.

3618
03:21:26,160 --> 03:21:27,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'll fix it. Thanks.

3619
03:21:27,600 --> 03:21:28,560
Speaker 8: Incredible humanity.

3620
03:21:29,080 --> 03:21:31,440
Speaker 2: Not a person that's someone's child.

3621
03:21:31,760 --> 03:21:34,240
Speaker 10: That's not someone's child, all right, Jim Acosta, routt is

3622
03:21:34,240 --> 03:21:37,480
Speaker 10: just a generic Well, no, it's it's it's not a person.

3623
03:21:37,920 --> 03:21:39,240
Speaker 10: This isn't a humanous Yeah.

3624
03:21:39,320 --> 03:21:43,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, but they've attempted to reanimate through cringeji someone's kid

3625
03:21:43,760 --> 03:21:45,720
Speaker 4: and they look like a character and it's a small world.

3626
03:21:45,920 --> 03:21:49,320
Speaker 10: Yes, the parents are involved in this process. Jim Acosta

3627
03:21:49,320 --> 03:21:52,160
Speaker 10: wrote on Blue Sky at four pm, I'll have a

3628
03:21:52,360 --> 03:21:55,640
Speaker 10: one of a kind interview with Hakeem Oliver. He died

3629
03:21:55,680 --> 03:21:57,800
Speaker 10: in the Parkland school shooting, but his parents have created

3630
03:21:57,800 --> 03:22:00,400
Speaker 10: an AI version of their son for a powerful message

3631
03:22:00,440 --> 03:22:03,800
Speaker 10: on gun violence. Unquote, you did not interview Lachem Oliver.

3632
03:22:04,120 --> 03:22:07,080
Speaker 10: That's that's not that's not him. You did not interview

3633
03:22:07,160 --> 03:22:07,640
Speaker 10: that person.

3634
03:22:07,760 --> 03:22:08,320
Speaker 8: No, you did not.

3635
03:22:08,520 --> 03:22:09,800
Speaker 2: You didn't interview anybody.

3636
03:22:09,840 --> 03:22:12,760
Speaker 10: You have helped to spread a fake puppet of someone

3637
03:22:12,840 --> 03:22:16,440
Speaker 10: without their knowledge and consent, just as just as gross

3638
03:22:16,520 --> 03:22:19,160
Speaker 10: is doing it for like movie actors right who have

3639
03:22:19,200 --> 03:22:22,039
Speaker 10: who have died. This is and you know, more more

3640
03:22:22,120 --> 03:22:25,320
Speaker 10: gross actually actually like significantly more gross.

3641
03:22:25,720 --> 03:22:29,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't even suggest like it it wasn't even

3642
03:22:30,320 --> 03:22:34,280
Speaker 2: like willing to be like ban AR fifteen's or whatever. Yeah,

3643
03:22:34,360 --> 03:22:38,040
Speaker 2: like there was no nothing suggested here, Like I can't

3644
03:22:38,040 --> 03:22:41,400
Speaker 2: believe how milk toast for a dead person who was

3645
03:22:41,520 --> 03:22:43,840
Speaker 2: killed by an AR fifteen. It wasn't even willingness. It

3646
03:22:43,920 --> 03:22:46,600
Speaker 2: was just like vaguely new gun control and also a

3647
03:22:46,680 --> 03:22:51,160
Speaker 2: culture of kindness. But like can't even be specific.

3648
03:22:50,840 --> 03:22:53,720
Speaker 10: This ghoul that you've made, You're putting fake words in

3649
03:22:53,840 --> 03:22:57,320
Speaker 10: someone else's like death mask mouth. It's yes, it's so,

3650
03:22:57,680 --> 03:23:00,440
Speaker 10: it's so unethical, Like I don't even know what to say.

3651
03:23:00,520 --> 03:23:03,760
Speaker 10: It doesn't work at CNN anymore. But my god, Like

3652
03:23:04,240 --> 03:23:07,960
Speaker 10: this is not journalism in any way, shape or form.

3653
03:23:08,320 --> 03:23:10,560
Speaker 4: No, I don't want to like punch down on the

3654
03:23:10,920 --> 03:23:13,960
Speaker 4: and I don't understand, Like I know parents who have

3655
03:23:14,040 --> 03:23:16,720
Speaker 4: lost children right through my work. I've talked to lots

3656
03:23:16,720 --> 03:23:18,600
Speaker 4: of them what I'd like to and I understand the

3657
03:23:18,680 --> 03:23:21,120
Speaker 4: desire to get your kid back in some form and

3658
03:23:21,200 --> 03:23:23,520
Speaker 4: if sure, whoever the fuck came to them and said,

3659
03:23:23,560 --> 03:23:25,520
Speaker 4: we're going to make an AI of your child so

3660
03:23:25,640 --> 03:23:27,800
Speaker 4: it can argue with journalists about gun control?

3661
03:23:28,200 --> 03:23:29,840
Speaker 2: Is a fucking ghoul perival.

3662
03:23:30,120 --> 03:23:32,040
Speaker 10: No, the the fault here is on the people promoting

3663
03:23:32,080 --> 03:23:35,160
Speaker 10: technology and in effect that's what Jim Accosta is doing

3664
03:23:35,200 --> 03:23:35,720
Speaker 10: here as well.

3665
03:23:35,840 --> 03:23:39,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally no, because the journalist is totally irresponsible.

3666
03:23:39,160 --> 03:23:40,280
Speaker 8: And profiting off of it.

3667
03:23:40,480 --> 03:23:41,160
Speaker 2: It's so gross.

3668
03:23:41,720 --> 03:23:46,080
Speaker 10: So anyway, that was our AI news to close the episode. Sorry,

3669
03:23:46,160 --> 03:23:48,280
Speaker 10: we couldn't end on the aoc ad. Instead had to

3670
03:23:48,440 --> 03:23:51,560
Speaker 10: end on a bit of a more more sour.

3671
03:23:51,480 --> 03:23:54,280
Speaker 4: Note, Yeah, I generally want to know where that aoc

3672
03:23:54,400 --> 03:23:55,560
Speaker 4: ad goes. I'm gonna watch it.

3673
03:23:55,959 --> 03:23:58,840
Speaker 10: Oh, I'll send it to you, James. Yeah, okay, we

3674
03:23:59,000 --> 03:23:59,879
Speaker 10: reported the news.

3675
03:24:00,360 --> 03:24:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess we reported the news.

3676
03:24:09,240 --> 03:24:09,400
Speaker 10: Hey.

3677
03:24:09,520 --> 03:24:12,600
Speaker 2: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3678
03:24:12,680 --> 03:24:14,320
Speaker 2: now until the heat death of the Universe.

3679
03:24:15,120 --> 03:24:17,600
Speaker 7: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3680
03:24:17,800 --> 03:24:20,800
Speaker 6: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3681
03:24:20,959 --> 03:24:24,440
Speaker 6: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3682
03:24:24,560 --> 03:24:27,400
Speaker 6: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3683
03:24:27,879 --> 03:24:29,800
Speaker 10: You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here,

3684
03:24:29,840 --> 03:24:31,640
Speaker 10: listed directly in episode descriptions.

3685
03:24:32,000 --> 03:24:32,800
Speaker 7: Thanks for listening.