1 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome into the All Ball Podcast. I'm your host, 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: Doug Gottli. Thanks so much for downloading, and I'm really 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: excited for this week's pod. My guest is J Billis, 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: lead college basketball antist for ESPN, a former colleague of 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: mine and someone I consider a friend. And it's interesting 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: on how Twitter and UH sometimes debate segments on TV 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: shows leave you arguing both sides. We'll get into some 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: amateurism discussion, but I also think that Jay is kind 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: of a fascinating Guy's interesting to me. I think you'd 10 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: be interesting to you as someone who, like me, grew 11 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: up in southern California. He went to Duke, starred there, 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: and UH end up being drafted in the NBA, played overseas, 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: and then worked his way into being arguably the top 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: broadcaster in the entire sport. Um In the meantime, he 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: was also AH. He's also a grad assistant at Duke 16 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: and of course has very close ties to the Duke program. 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: He called n c A tournament games. He's done just 18 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: about everything, including working with and then kind of usurping 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: the great Hall of Famer Dick vital. So J Billis 20 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: will be our guest and we will get into some 21 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: amateurs some talk, but I don't think that's the only 22 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: thing that's pertinent when listening to J Billis story, because 23 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: you've heard his side on amateurism, you've heard mine. But 24 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: I think we'll have a thoughtful and engaging discussion. A 25 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: couple of other things you need to know about the 26 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: NBA and about college basketball. They have changed some of 27 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: the rules in the NBA, for example, or they appear 28 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: to be going to change some of the rules in 29 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: the NBA with the fourteen second reset on offensive rebounds. 30 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: I love that. I love it. As some of you know, 31 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: I coached overseas last summer in Israel the Maccabi Games, 32 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: and I quickly learned just how different the game is 33 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: based upon the rules and based upon the shot clock. 34 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: And now I knew about the fourteen second reset, so 35 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: it was something we'd actually practiced for. And one of 36 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: the things I think it does is it doesn't allow 37 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: you to bring it out, get a reset, get another 38 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: set um, and so it kind of makes the offense 39 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: more attentive to getting a quick shot off the rebound, 40 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: and it also makes the defense not just try and 41 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 1: defend against the second shot, but also contest three point 42 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: shots on kickouts. My basic philosophy when I was coaching 43 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: was um and would would always be even if you 44 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: didn't have the fourteen second reset. Is you get an 45 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: offensive rebound, and if you have a putback lay up, fine, 46 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: If not, we want a space and look to get 47 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: a quick three. You get to get a quick rhythm three. 48 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 1: A couple of reasons. One, Obviously, the defense lets its 49 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: guard down as everybody looks at the basketball and runs 50 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: towards the balls like moth to a like a moth 51 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: to a light. And so a lot of times your 52 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: shooters are open. Secondly, shooters themselves. Everyone shoots better when 53 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: the ball is coming from inside out, much like your 54 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: mom and your dad, or your high school coach or 55 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: your manager feeding you jump shots. You shoot a higher 56 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: percentage when the ball is coming inside out. And then 57 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: what I found is if you make it about hey, 58 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: let's get a dagger three, which is something that I 59 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: know others have done it. I'm gonna credit Davidson. They 60 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: were the first I know of to really use it 61 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: in the n c A tournament. Of course, Duke borrowed 62 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: it when they want a national championship in two thousand 63 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: and ten. It was something that that they changed really 64 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: really remarkable on how now the Golden State Warriors really 65 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: used that philosophy. And you'll watch teams when they're playing 66 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: Golden State to give up an offensive rebound and Draymond 67 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: Green or Andrea Guadala, and you'll see teams just run 68 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: right to the shooters and not even concern themselves sometimes 69 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: with layups given up on offensive board. So it changes 70 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: the way you you coach offense. It changes the way 71 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: you coach defense. It makes you much more attentive not 72 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: just to the boards, but to the open three point shooters. 73 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: And look, you get more shots up, you have more energy. 74 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: It gets exciting as guys run to rebound and kick 75 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: out and look to shoot threes and only almost becomes 76 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: a team three point shot. You can almost tracking like 77 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: an offensive rebound as a team three point shot, because 78 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: oftentimes one it takes one shot, it takes an offensive rebounder, 79 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: which means you know, one person showing great effort off 80 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: times to kick out leads to even more moss running 81 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: to lights and then you know an extra pass or 82 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: two or three extra passes, and then you ultimately get 83 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: a three. Sometimes all five players will touch the basketball. 84 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: Even though the idea is get an offensive rebound, you 85 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: don't have a putback, you kick it out for an 86 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: open jump shot. So I'm all for that rule change. 87 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: I think it's a good one. The other one i'd 88 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: like to see changed. I love international basketball that you 89 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: can touch a basketball when it's on the cylinder. Now, 90 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: many people don't understand this rule if they're just a fan. 91 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: And I know, if you're listening to the show, you're 92 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: probably a hardcore basketball fan or player or coach or whatever. 93 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: But if you're not, just so you know, like normal 94 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: rules of goaltending, ball on the way down is still 95 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: a goaltend. The difference is once it hits the cylinder. 96 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: That because that's a live ball. And again that makes 97 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: guys go after the boards, go after the ball when 98 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: it's on the rim, and on a second shot, remember 99 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: a second shot in free throw, the balls rattling around 100 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,799 Speaker 1: the rim, you can knock it off. On the other hand, 101 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: you can also knock it in. And if defensively you 102 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: try and knock it off and it goes in, the 103 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: offensive team gets two points instead of just one point. 104 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: So there is a risk reward to it. Even though 105 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: I think common logic would be it would cut down 106 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: the percentage. You can't hit the ball through the inside 107 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: of the rim, right, you can't go up through the net, 108 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: so the normal rules of goaltending apply with the exception 109 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: of the cylinder rule. I'd like to see that rule changed. 110 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: I just would. I think that would again make it, 111 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if it bring back the 112 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: big guy, to make the big guy more part of 113 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: of college basketball, more part of the NBA, and I 114 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: think that's the way to do so, So kudos did 115 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: the n B A I'm all for college basketball. Also 116 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: not resetting the shot clock all the way on an 117 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: offensive rebound. I think that'd be a great idea, a 118 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: great rule change as well. All right, let's welcome him in. 119 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: He's the lead college basketball analyst for ESPN. Of course, 120 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: he's called n c A termined games going back to 121 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: when he worked also with CBS and Duke all um 122 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: as Uh not only as an undergrad but also has 123 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: a law degree. He's the one. He's only he's j Billis. 124 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: He joins us here on the All Ball Podcast. How 125 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: do you want to be introduced? Like outside of like 126 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: what what's the what's the what's the way which when 127 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: you walk into a restaurant and a friend introduced you 128 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: to another friend, Hey, this is Jay. I mean, because 129 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: you do have a lot of stuff to your resume. Well, 130 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: that's a good question, Doug. I hadn't really thought about that. Um. 131 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: I know when when people say, hey, you know, what's 132 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: your title? I always say, just you know, ESPN or 133 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: ESPN Basketball Analysts or something. Um, you don't need a 134 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: whole resume deal, but that that's what I see myself 135 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: as now, just as a as a basketball broadcaster, not 136 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: as a broadcaster, but but specifically around basketball. So I'd 137 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: probably say ESPN. I think they call us basketball analysts, 138 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, like we're like we're trading stocks or something. 139 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: I don't know when that happened. He used to be 140 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: We're a color analyst. Um. But yeah, I'd probably say 141 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: ESPN Basketball Analyst. Okay, there's there's a lot to basketball 142 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: i'd like to get to, and there's some that believe 143 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: you should be the commits of all things basketball with 144 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: the n c A. I want to want to get 145 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: to that. But what about the college game itself? Um? 146 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: Do you do you like the game? When you when 147 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: you call games, when you watch games, when you study games. 148 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: Do you like watching college basketball as much now as 149 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: you did when you started in the biz? I do. Um, 150 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: I think the game is in a really good place 151 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: right now. I think for a period of years, maybe 152 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, four or five years ago, and then for 153 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: maybe a ten year period, and I'm probably just you know, 154 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: guessing at that I thought it had devolved into a 155 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: clutch and grab game where it became overly physical and 156 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: the officials were not calling the game the way it 157 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: had been called maybe when you played, or certainly when 158 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: I played, UM, and I think it scoring was going down. 159 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: I think that was the reason it wasn't the defenses 160 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: were getting that much better, is that they were getting 161 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: away with more, and the coaches were way more creative 162 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: and as you know better than I do, sort of 163 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: you know, fauling with your chest and jumping cutters and 164 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: grabbing guys coming off the screens and disrupting timing that 165 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: were clear fouls that just weren't being called. So we've 166 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: done a better job the last two or three years, 167 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: i'd say, and cleaning that up, and I think the 168 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: game's gotten better. Um. I heard a little bit of 169 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: what you were talking about before, and I agree with 170 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: you a thousand percent, is that you know, whether we 171 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: go to feeble rules or whatever, there are so many 172 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: things that we can do to enhance the game. And 173 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: I'm I understand and and and respect my colleagues. It 174 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: may may even be you at certain times saying, look, 175 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: if it aint broke, don't fix it. But but there's 176 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: a part of me that says, you know, nobody ever 177 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: says if it aint broke, don't improve it, or if 178 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: it ain't broke, don't maintain it. And uh, and there 179 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: are certain things where the game evolves that we need 180 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: to change. And I think FEEBA has given us a 181 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: great example of how they can adapt to the way 182 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: coaches change the way they're doing things, the way players 183 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: change to change the way they're doing things in order 184 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: to stay ahead in the in the game. Uh, you know, 185 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: staying uh, you know, as good as it can be. 186 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it's gotten faster for a while. College basketball, 187 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: as you know, had the it was the slowest game 188 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: in the world thirty five second shock lock, and we've 189 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: gotten that down to thirty. The world didn't spin off 190 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: its access. Everything was fine. If we went to twenty four. 191 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: Like when these teams go overseas and play they do great, 192 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: it would be just fine. And uh, and so I 193 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: think I think we need to try to stay current 194 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: as best we can. Don't mean we have to change 195 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: everything would be like the NBA. I'm not suggesting that, 196 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,479 Speaker 1: but but but we can certainly be more proactive to 197 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: to and and more adaptive, I should say, uh, in 198 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: in keeping up with the way the games being played. 199 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, I've often thought that the NBA 200 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: should go to the old college style free throws. And 201 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: stick with me on the logic here. So every rule 202 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: that the NBA has is because we would all agree. 203 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: We we both agree those are the best players in 204 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: the entire world. Right, So the three point line is 205 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: is further the lane is why? Or although I know 206 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: FEB has adopted that lane, you only get eight seconds 207 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: to get it across the court. You get twenty four seconds. 208 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: You know on the shot clock. They're obviously adapting the 209 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: fourteen seconds and the offensive board. In other words, you know, 210 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,119 Speaker 1: every every rule is meant for the highest level of competition, 211 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: and yet they only have two shot free throws. Once 212 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: you get into the bonus, I think like, look, we 213 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: really want to keep as you said, and I think 214 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: it's a great way of looking at it which I 215 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: hadn't thought of, which is like, hey, just because you 216 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: like college basketball doesn't mean you can't change some of it. 217 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: Think about the changes that many of them have worked 218 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: out for the better, including cutting down the clutching and 219 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: the grabbing um. But why not go to the one 220 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: in one in the NBA? You know, listen, you don't 221 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: have to go with five, but if they're truly the 222 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: best players, why not put them under as much or 223 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: more pressure as we see college players under. Well that's 224 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: a that's a fair point, I mean, but sometimes I 225 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: look at it from the standpoint of you know, like like, look, 226 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: I I don't know every game out there, but but 227 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: basketball is the only game I know of where you 228 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: can score with no defense. And so when when you 229 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 1: go to the free throw line, oftentimes, when when you 230 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: foul someone, if it's a common foul or fouling in 231 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: the active shooting um, you know you're not only taking 232 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: sometimes you're taking away well, especially in the common foul, 233 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 1: you're taking away your opponent's opportunity to three. And so 234 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: they're you know, it's really free throws are are It's 235 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: supposed to be a deterrent. So I'm okay with with 236 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: sort of the international rule of of you know, five 237 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: fouls per quarter and then you're on the fifth foul, 238 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: you have two shots. I'm not sure that when you 239 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: foul it should be on the offense. You know, there 240 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: should be a sanction for the defense for foulings. That 241 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 1: makes sense. I mean, you know, I see both sides 242 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: of it, and I'm okay with that. If if we 243 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: think the one and one is an integral part of 244 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: college basketball, I'm cool with it. Um. And and if 245 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: we want to argue for that for the NBA, that's 246 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: fine too, um. But my thing sometimes winds up Wait 247 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: a minute, now, you know, if you foul and you're 248 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: you're taking away my opportunity to get to three. And 249 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: it's kind of like I've always felt like, and this 250 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: is getting way off off of what you're asking, and 251 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: I apologize, Listen, listen, it's a can do. I guess 252 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: we got more time. But but so when you when 253 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: there's a lane violation and they give they give the 254 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: non violating team the if they're shooting, they give him 255 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: another free throw, Like I don't want another free throw. 256 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: I want the ball, like because if they violated and 257 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: a miss free throw, if you make it, you know 258 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: you you the it counts. But if you miss it, 259 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: they took away your opportunity to get um to get 260 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: a fair shot at an offensive rebound, which could lead 261 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: to a three. So if there's a violation, the non 262 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: violating team should get the ball another free throw, And 263 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: I remember this, always felt like that should be part 264 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: of the deal. And and I don't care unless there's 265 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: a foul, if there's any violation on the lane, if 266 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: the shot goes in, who cares. The shot should count um. 267 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: If you miss it, then the non violating team should 268 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: get the ball. And uh. And I've always I felt 269 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: that way, even when I was a player, when I 270 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: was playing overseas, when I played pro ball overseas, I 271 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: thought the feeble rules were great. They just made more 272 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: sense to me than the college rules. And it doesn't 273 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: mean they were all better, but most of them were. 274 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: And uh. And we've been really for some reason in college, 275 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: and I've sat on some of these committees. I'm on 276 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: the n c Double A's Competition Committee that Jim Delaney 277 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: started several years ago as an LC and the n 278 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: C double A brought it in house, and and the 279 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: people on the committee couldn't be better people. I mean 280 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: they're all well intentioned, they're great, but there is this 281 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: kind of undercurrent of, well, we want to be different 282 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: from the NBA. I mean, we don't want to do 283 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: things like the NBA does it because we're this separate 284 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: and distinct thing. And people like us because we're college 285 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: and we're different. And I kind of sit there sometimes 286 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: and I respect the opinion. I just don't agree with that. 287 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: I'm kind of thinking, I don't think people sit at 288 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: home going wait a minute, that rules like the NBA. 289 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: That's really offensive to me. I don't think they do that. 290 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: You know, when we went to the thirty second shot 291 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: clock and all this other stuff that NBA has done 292 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: in the past. Um, Like, look, I'm fine with if 293 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: somebody doesn't want the NBA rule of in the last 294 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: two minutes, you know, if you get a rebound called 295 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: time out, you can move it to half court. I 296 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: get that. If if college doesn't want that, that's fine. Um, 297 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: but why we fight quarters I'll never understand. Uh. And 298 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: the and the one argument that I hear more often 299 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: dug on the quarters thing is we don't want to 300 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: be like the NBA, and then they have quarters in 301 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: high school, they have quarters in women's basketball, they have 302 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: quarters in FIBA. You know, we're the only game in 303 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: the world that doesn't have quarters, Like, what do we 304 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: know that the rest of the world, You know that 305 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: we need to clue in the rest of the world 306 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: and how dumb they are. Um, we can't really justify 307 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: why we have halfs. It's just like our tradition and uh, 308 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: and we can't really say, well, this is why I 309 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: like it. It doesn't make you know, it kind of 310 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense to me. A lot of things 311 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: don't j J. It is a little bit a little 312 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: bit of a college thing, which is and this is 313 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: one of the thing I struggle with is I, you know, 314 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: I watched and these are there's some great coaches, and 315 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: I mean this, this is not like me talking out 316 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: of both sides of my mouth. Guys that I think 317 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: are really really good and uh, you know, for example, 318 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: a Tom Iszo, who I believe, you know, I'm a 319 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: believer in the college system. I like guys going to 320 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: college for a couple of years and understand learning about 321 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: who they are, but also learning the game and learning 322 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: a system and playing for the team because you have 323 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: the rest of your life to play for yourself. But 324 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: I will say that, and this isn't just Izzoh, you 325 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: know Roy Williams. I watched some of the stuff they do, 326 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: and it's the exact same offense they ran when we 327 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: played against Kansas in the late nineties and in the 328 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: two thousand and I kind of think it's one of 329 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: the things with college coaches, not all of them, but 330 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: a lot of them. They they've had a ton of success, 331 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: so they why do we do it this way, because 332 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: this is the way we've always done it right, And 333 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: it's a little bit of that with the halves. And 334 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: I find that's the only disappointing part. I one of 335 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: the disappointing parts I find in college basketball. Some of 336 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: the coaches kind of fear this evolved being basketball. Like 337 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: you said, the international game you watch some of the 338 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: style of the NBA is much closer. It has evolved 339 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: much closer, like the the whole idea of ball and 340 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: player movement. That's a that's a European style that we adopted, 341 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: and a little bit of college style that we've adopted. UM, 342 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: But I I find that the same thing you're thinking 343 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: of with with the halves instead of quarters, I find 344 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: with offensive and defensive systems, and that guy's struggle to 345 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: evolve with the game. And you know, some of these 346 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: other younger coaches have been able to use some of 347 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: the European stuff, some of the NBA stuffs to great 348 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: success because they're going against colleges that still play three 349 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: big guys, two big guys in three guards. You know, 350 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: they still run traditional systems that they've run because that's 351 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: what they know best. Yeah. I agree with that, UM. 352 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: And there are some guys that have done it a 353 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: certain way for all these years, and it's been extraordinarily successful. 354 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: Like you mentioned Roy Williams at North Carolina running the 355 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: same stuff at Kansas and but it works, and it 356 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: works at a really high level. And and and they 357 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: played differently than almost almost any other major conference team 358 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: where they have two big guys, they run the same 359 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: secondary break, and more teams are going with perimeter oriented stuff. UM. 360 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: So absolutely I get that, and I'm okay with Like 361 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: I'm okay with the way the game is. I just 362 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: think there are certain ways we can push you forward. 363 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: Like I think right before I came on, I heard 364 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: you talking a little bit about, you know, the sort 365 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: of the idea that you had conveyed to me that 366 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: the best players in the world, you know, the three 367 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: point line is further back. And and I've argued in 368 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: college that we need to push it back to at 369 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: least the FEBA distance. And but it's not because it 370 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: makes the shot harder. That in in my view, and 371 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: what I have seen sort of in my experience, has 372 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: been the further the three point line out is further 373 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: it's pushed out, the better the spacing for offenses, and 374 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 1: and everybody's going to run their offense to that line. 375 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: And oftentimes I've heard coaches and and you may have 376 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: heard exactly the same thing. We run in the same 377 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,719 Speaker 1: circles that you know. Coaches will say, hey, when we 378 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: go when we play in a bigger arena, we're practicing 379 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 1: in an NBA facility, our offense runs better because we're 380 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: we're spaced out to the NBA three point line and 381 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: so we have more room to cut, more room to 382 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: drive and all that stuff. And so I've argued for 383 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: the three point line in these these committee meetings to 384 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: be moved back. Not because I think there should be 385 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: more risk reward to the shot. Uh, and the shot 386 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: should be more difficult. Um, it's because I think it 387 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: improves the spacing and it makes it the better the spacing, 388 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: it's easier to officiate. And uh, and you know, the 389 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: clutching and grabbing we're talking about is a lot easier 390 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: to deal with. Like when you know, you probably you 391 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: know your your fair clip younger than I am. So 392 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: you probably played with a three point line in high school, right, yeah? Yeah, 393 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: See I didn't play in college. I didn't play with 394 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: a three point line at all. You never played with one. 395 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: Came into college basketball the year after I graduated, and 396 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: you wouldn't believe how congested things were back then. Everybody 397 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: packed it in uh and made you prove it over 398 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: the top because it was a two point shot. And 399 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: and so when people say, well, the depth of the 400 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: mid rain shot, you know, there's no mid range game 401 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: any Why would you take a mid rain shot? Now? 402 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: Back then that was a good shot. But it's not 403 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: a good shot anymore. It's not a valuable shot. You 404 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: still want able to hit it. I don't know, you know, 405 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: it's I'm sure it's like bunting in baseball. You still 406 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: want to be able to do it, but you're not 407 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: doing it as often as you used to. And uh, 408 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: and that's just sort of the way the game's changed. 409 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: And I don't think the game's worse now than it 410 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: used to be. I think it's way more exciting. I 411 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: think the players are way more skilled now. Uh, they're generally, 412 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: they're better they've ever been athletically, skill wise, nutrition, everything, 413 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: They're longer, they're more's. It's totally better. It doesn't mean 414 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: that Michael Jordan wouldn't be the best player now or 415 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: Ralph Sampson wouldn't be the best. Maybe they would, But 416 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: but the average play air now is way better than 417 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: the average player was twenty thirty years ago. Let's let's 418 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: work our way back in time. You grew up in 419 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: southern California in Rolling Hills. Um, were you always just 420 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: a basketball player? Volleyball? Or you football? I mean, obviously 421 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: you're you're tremending like for people who don't remember you 422 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: as a player, you were a very good athlete. Um, 423 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: so was it was it always just all ball? I 424 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: played baseball growing up in addition to basketball. Um, you know, 425 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: I grew up in I was born in nineteen three, 426 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: so my my formative beers were in the seventies, and 427 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: so you played back then, you played the sport that 428 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: was in season. And so my dad wouldn't let me 429 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: play football. His thing was, you can play football when 430 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: you get to high school. And he told me later 431 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: on his thinking was that that if if he could 432 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 1: keep me away from football when I was a kid, 433 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't want to play when I got to 434 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: high school. Like my dad thought, football was was a 435 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: headbangers game and it was just going to lead to 436 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: injury and all that stuff. And so I played basketball 437 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: and baseball and I loved them both. But when I 438 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: got to high school after my sophomore year, I played 439 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: baseball until my sophomore year and uh. And then even 440 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: back then, coaches were pretty territorial, and so I had 441 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: to choose and uh, and so I basically quit quit 442 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: baseball just to play basketball. And you know, I was 443 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 1: six six seven once I got to high school, so 444 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: it was pretty clear like basketball was probably what I 445 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: was going to be better at and have a better 446 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: opportunity to playing college or maybe after that. So I 447 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: gravitated towards basketball, and that's pretty much all I did 448 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: after after my softmore year in high school. All right, So, 449 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: but but your dad was he was a repairman right here. 450 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: He wasn't. It's it's really interesting. Our our backgrounds are 451 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: similar in southern California, are similar in that I did 452 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: actually play football growing up, but you did play the 453 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: sport in season. But they're dissimilar in that your dad 454 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: wasn't a basketball guy. How did he How what was 455 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: he like as a parent in terms of you as 456 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: a growing athlete. Yeah, my dad um was born in 457 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: the United States. He was born in San Pedro where 458 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: I was born in southern California, near Long Beach in 459 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: the Port of Los Angeles. And he worked when he 460 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: was a kid. So he was a commercial fisherman when 461 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: he was young, and then uh, and then later on 462 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 1: after he got out of that, he went to technical 463 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: school and he got into TV sales and service. He 464 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: was basically like a TV repair He had a TV 465 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: repair shop and uh, and sold TVs out of there. 466 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: Back when you know, like when I was a kid, 467 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: TVs were furniture. Uh, you know, these big consoles at 468 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: a turntable in it and all that stuff and so 469 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: when your TV went on the fritz, like my dad 470 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 1: got called and he went on a house call and 471 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,239 Speaker 1: if he couldn't fix it right there, he took it 472 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: with him and back to the shop. And you know, 473 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: now your TV breaks, you throw it away. But back then, 474 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: you know, you can make a significant amount of money 475 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: fixing those things. He made all his money really not 476 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,959 Speaker 1: on sales but of new TVs, but on on service, 477 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: on repairing things, repairing TV sets and all that stuff. 478 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: So he did that and then, uh, and then got 479 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: out of it when I was, you know, just getting 480 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: out of high school. But um, you know it was 481 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: I grew up in a very nice area. It really 482 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: was very nice area. It wasn't as as sort of 483 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: big money as it is now. It's become one of 484 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: the wealthy zip goes in the in the country now, 485 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 1: But back then there were a lot of a lot 486 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: of people like my family that were middle class that 487 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: you know, did well and everything. I never wanted for anything, 488 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: but you know, I had to. I came up the 489 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: same way most people did. I mean I walked to 490 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: school every day and all that stuff. Um, but I didn't. 491 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: My my dad never wanted me to work when I 492 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: was a kid, like I had to do stuff around 493 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: the house and all that yard work and all that stuff. 494 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: But like he would not let me get a job, 495 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: and my mom wanted me to work. She thought that, 496 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: you know, a kid my age and you know high 497 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: school all that, you get a job. And my dad, 498 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: I remember, my dad is really the only time I 499 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: remember my parents kind of arguing. Um, And his thing 500 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: was his job is to go to school and play ball. 501 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: If he screws that up, then we'll make him work. 502 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: But what what good is bagging groceries going to be 503 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: for him? And so I always like I thought, Dad's awesome, man, 504 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: he's keeping me from having to get a job. Um. 505 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: But I never I never worked in that regard. I 506 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: just worked at what I what he thought I was 507 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: supposed to do, which and I had to work for 508 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: him during the summertimes, especially when I was in college. 509 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: I did construction work during the summer for him. So 510 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: that was really the only job I ever had before 511 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: I you know, I got to college and worked during 512 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: the summertimes, like in the broadcast industry or something like that. 513 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: I never I never really had a real job until that. Okay, 514 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: so let's let's again keep it with with high school 515 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: and throwing up like did you go to do you 516 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: go to Five Stars? Did you go what were the 517 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: go were the camps back then? Because mine was um 518 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: there was a camp at was camp in Santa Barbara 519 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: West actually at Westmont College called Snow Valley that I 520 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: went to religiously, I think that's I was like eight 521 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: to like fourteen or fifteen. And then there was Superstar 522 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: Camp and Center Barbara went too, and then the Pumps 523 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: got involved right around I was thirteen or fourteen, and 524 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 1: that's when it was West Coast All Star and then 525 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: obviously a b C D which is kind of a 526 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: breakoff of the old Nike Princeton ABC D camp. Did 527 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,239 Speaker 1: you did you go to basketball camp? Like? What what 528 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: was your what was your summer? Who? Like Yeah, when 529 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: I was growing up, UM, I played on they called 530 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: it the conference team. So rather than like in southern California, 531 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: they didn't have school teams, so you didn't play for 532 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: like your your intermediate school at a team that played 533 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: other intermediate schools. You know, you played for your local 534 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: local team. So we played we played probably fifty games 535 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: a year, traveling all around Southern California, and I promise 536 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: you I played in Tustin in your gym, and San Clementi. 537 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: I played in every high school in southern California at 538 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: one point or another between fourth and eighth grade. And 539 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: then when I got to high school. I never went 540 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: to basketball camp as a kid. So when I when 541 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: I got to high school and was started being considered 542 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: a pretty decent play here, I got invited you mentioned 543 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: I got invited to it's called the Sports World Superstar Camp. 544 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: But when I was when I was playing, it was 545 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: in Point Loma near San Diego, so south of where 546 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: you and I grew up. And uh, and so that 547 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: was my first experience at a recruiting camp. And I 548 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: got invited to some camps in the East, but I 549 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: didn't feel like, well, you know, I want to make 550 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: my dad pay for me to get out there. You know, 551 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: I didn't understand how all that worked. So to me, 552 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: the Superstar Camp was plenty. So I went to that 553 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: twice and that was the only basketball camp I ever 554 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: went to. UM and then I played. I played a 555 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: little bit of of a U ball. I played for 556 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: the first South Coast, which was coached by Gary McKnight. 557 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: UM who was now at modern days, at a Hall 558 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: of Fame career of modern day. And so I played 559 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: for a couple of years, a couple of summers and 560 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: uh and then play you know. So we would play 561 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: in the bc I tournaments in in Provo, Utah, in 562 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: Las Vegas, UM. But I didn't play a ton of 563 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: back down. There weren't as many a U teams. We 564 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: played with our high school team in summer, so we 565 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: played in the Long Beach City College Summer League and 566 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that. We we played a lot 567 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: of that stuff. And then I played I played in heck, 568 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: I played in gold Rich Goldberg's American Round what they 569 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: called the ARC League, the American Roundball Corporation. They played 570 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: for Washington. It started slamm and Jam, and Long Beach 571 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: played in that. So I played a ton of basketball 572 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: all around southern California. But it wasn't quite as I mean, 573 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: it was organized, but it wasn't like now with the 574 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: pumps and all that stuff where where it's it's it's 575 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: a business now. It was a little more um sort 576 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: of startup type stuff back then. And it was fun, 577 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: like you know, it seemed like during the summer, I 578 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: played in one either Long Beach City College or cal 579 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: State l A. I played for the US Olympic Development 580 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: League every summer. Um. I played pretty much every night 581 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: somewhere and uh, and it was fun. Um it seems 582 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: a little more like when my kid was going through 583 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: the AU thing uh and playing every weekend. Um it 584 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: was a little more professional, if that makes sense. Um. 585 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: And it was a little more I don't know the 586 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: right word for it. Um it was packaged. The kids 587 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: still had a really good time, and there was a 588 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: ton of value to it. But but it was it 589 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: was a little grittier when when I played and uh, 590 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: and I loved every minute of it because my you know, 591 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: my parents didn't go. Now, if you don't go to 592 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: if you're a parent, you don't go to your kids games, 593 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: you're like a bad parent. My parents didn't go to 594 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: all my games. It was my thing. They came sometimes, 595 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: and when they came, it was great. But if they 596 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: weren't there, like, it didn't bother me. I I wanted 597 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: to play. And so it was a different time. So 598 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: so that so the drive to be great just came 599 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: from within or was it was it something was your 600 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 1: was your dad, somebody who pushed you? Was it your 601 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: mom who pushed you? Like? Where did you don't become 602 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: as driven as you are? And you were, you were 603 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: driven academically, as scholastically as well as as in basketball. 604 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: If not, I would I would think. And this is 605 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: more maybe a parenting question. Obviously you raising kids, you know, 606 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: one that's you graduated and the other one that's about 607 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: to graduate. Um, But but where did where did your 608 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: personal drive come from within? Or was it one of 609 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,719 Speaker 1: your folks? Well, my dad never pushed me. My parents 610 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: never pushed me. My mom would say stuff to me 611 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: basically to get me to shut up, like if I 612 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: was complaining, And because my mom didn't know anything about 613 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: sports and didn't much care about it, she just kind 614 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: of wanted to. She wanted us to do well and 615 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: have fun and to behave ourselves. So as long as 616 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: if I went to a game, as long as I 617 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: behaved myself, my mom was happy with it. But you know, 618 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: she she said some things to me that that that 619 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: we're very affecting. Like there was one time, like I 620 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: I came home from some event and I thought, you know, 621 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: I had been the leading scorer and then all that stuff, 622 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: and and I thought I should have been the m 623 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: v P of this tournament I played in, and I 624 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: had made some some statement about well, I'm you know, 625 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: I'm just not getting the ball enough. And my mom 626 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: looked at me and said, you're a big boy. If 627 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: you want the ball, go get it. And I was like, 628 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: here's this little lady telling you know it doesn't know 629 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: anything about sports, telling me if I want the ball 630 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: go get it, I better go get it and uh. 631 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: And my dad would say the same kind of thing 632 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: if if I complained, like he never said, hey, man, 633 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: you didn't do this, you need to do this better. 634 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: He wasn't built like that. He didn't care about that, 635 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, so he wanted me to I'm sure he 636 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: wanted me to do well and all that stuff and 637 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: had the expectations, but he never really voiced them. Um, 638 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: but he would he would basically say, like if I would, 639 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: you know, that was kind of the big guy's lament 640 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: is you know, they don't throw the ball inside. And 641 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: my dad to go, look, I've been watching these games. 642 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: Your teammates missed a lot of shots. Why don't you 643 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: go get the rebound? And and you can get the 644 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: ball anytime you want to go get it. And so 645 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: I remember, I remember that, but they never pushed me. 646 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: What what for me? What was? What is kind of 647 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: motivating was I have an older brother who's seven years 648 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: older than I am, and he was a kick ass 649 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: good athlete grown up, like he did everything, and he's 650 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: a he's a great golfer, he's a really good he's 651 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: a great baseball player, uh, good basketball player. But he's smaller, 652 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: you know, smaller than me. He's only he's only like 653 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: six too. And uh, and so he had when we 654 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: roomed together growing up, and he had I'm no joke, 655 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: he had like a hundred and twenty five trophies in 656 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: our room. Every time he went somewhere, he won. And 657 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: and so like my parents friends had come over to 658 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: the house, you know, they've given the Nickel Tour something, 659 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: they would always stop in my brother's in our room 660 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: and they would marvel at how many trophies my brother 661 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: had won. His name's Dave, and and just a stud 662 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: and he's my idol grown up. And that motivated me 663 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: more than anything. Was I wanted to do things well 664 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: so that I could try to match him. And uh 665 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: and finally, like when I was like a senior in 666 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: high school or something. I finally got as many trophies 667 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: as he did, and it was like a huge day 668 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: for me when I matched it and uh, and that 669 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: was more motivating to me than, uh than having, you know, 670 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: my parents say, hey, you got to do that. My parents. 671 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: The only thing that my mom ever really got on 672 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: me about with school. Um, she expected me to to 673 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: take care of my school work because she, like my parents, 674 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: had a very healthy fear of my failure. So that 675 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: the thing was like, people are saying, you're good at basketball, 676 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: but you better do your homework because uh, you know, 677 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: you might not be as good as you think. And 678 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: that was sort of the that was sort of the 679 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: lamit or the mantra in our house was college your choice. 680 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: You've got to be able to eat. Your grades have 681 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: to be good enough so that you can get into 682 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: the college your choice. And once I got good at basketball, 683 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: I was I was pretty sure I could go where 684 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: I wanted. So I didn't do my homework quite as 685 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: fervently as I did before. I know that I know 686 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: that you were part of Duke that was the number 687 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: one recruiting class in the country, and it was just 688 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: it was an amazing list of Allery and Dawkins and 689 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: and Dave Henderson, and you're part of what UH kind 690 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: of set in place, UH this path through an incredible legacy. 691 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: The coach k is is UH is going to leave 692 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: behind at Duke. But you did grew up in southern California, 693 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: and I know U c l A wasn't at its peak, 694 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: but you grew up in the seventies in Los Angeles. 695 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: Was Larry Farmer was the head coach. I believe right 696 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: it was it was Larry Brown. And the Larry Farmer 697 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: did he not offer you were they late to the party? 698 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: Why Why wasn't U c l A considered, especially you know, 699 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: growing up there and being a good student. When I 700 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: was a sophomore in high school, Larry Brown was the 701 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: head coach at U c l A. And he'd gone 702 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: to the Final four in like night, my my sophomore 703 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: year and uh and they lost to Louisville. And he 704 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: had expressed interest in me um as a player, and 705 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, like you're saying, you know, you grew up 706 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: in the shadow of U c l A. That was 707 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: sort of a goal that you had as a player, 708 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: Like someday I'd like to play at U c l 709 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: A and and I had a lot of guys that 710 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: I had played against it have gone there. And and 711 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: so when when Larry Brown left and went to the 712 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: San Antonio Spurt no, the New Jersey Nets I think 713 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: it was UM and went into the n b A, 714 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: h U c l A hired Larry Farmer who had 715 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: played you know, played there in won national championships with 716 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: Walden and all that. UM and and they recruited a 717 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: guy who was in my class name Carrie Bogny, who 718 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: who ultimately wound up going to Kansas. So he had 719 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: committed to u c l A. And they thought they 720 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: had their big guy, so they kind of didn't didn't 721 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: really um didn't really show the same kind of interest 722 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 1: that I was getting from seemingly everywhere else. And uh 723 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: and so uh you know that was a little bit disappointing. 724 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: So I kind of said, all right, well, you know, 725 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: if if that's not if that's not of interest to you, 726 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: then I'm going in this other direction. So when Carry 727 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: Bogny kind of turned tail and went to Kansas, UM 728 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: I didn't have a whole lot of interest in U 729 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: c l A. When when they thought well maybe we 730 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: should turn in this direction, and my dad made sure 731 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: that that that wasn't gonna happen because I've already made 732 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: my mind up. I was going to duke and he 733 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: was not. He was not about to to have something. 734 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: So I I have no idea whether I got every 735 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: phone call because my parents had had wait wait a minute, 736 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: you know this is over and uh. And I know 737 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: some places that called because there was only one signing 738 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: period back then. It was in April, and I knew 739 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: places that called that had had coaching changes and and 740 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: you know I didn't find out about some of them 741 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: until afterwards. Well, but Coach K wasn't Coach K then, 742 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: So what what was it that appealed to you about 743 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: Coach K that you made you get on a plane 744 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: and want to fly all the way across the country 745 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: and play a duke which which is a place where 746 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: anybody's ever been there and now like beautiful and completely 747 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: different than southern California, but it's also mostly uh, mostly 748 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: populated by kids from the northeast. What was it about 749 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: duke and Coach K? It was all Coach K that um, 750 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: you know, when I was in high school, I had 751 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: a little bit of a difficult experience with sort of 752 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: the coach there. Um. You know, I'm really tight with 753 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: all my teammates and we had a great experience with 754 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: each other, but it wasn't a great experience with our coach. 755 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,240 Speaker 1: And I had in my four years of high school 756 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: there were three different head coaches of the varsity when 757 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: I was there, and the last the last person that 758 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: had it. It wasn't a pleasant experience. And and so 759 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: I only were I figured out at least that my 760 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: choice of college UM was going to be the only 761 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: time in my basketball life probably that I was going 762 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: to be able to choose who I played for. So 763 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: the coach was the most important thing to me, and uh, 764 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: and it really wound up dictating my final schools. UM. 765 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: It was less about the schools and more about the coaches. 766 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,439 Speaker 1: And like oddly enough, so the four schools I came 767 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 1: down to at the end were UM where Duke where 768 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: coach k was, Syracuse where Jim Beheim was, um Iowa 769 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: where lud Olsen was, and then Kansas where a guy 770 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: named Ted Owens was at the time. And so those 771 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: were the four four coaches I was most interested in 772 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: playing for. And you know, three of them are now 773 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: in the Basketball Hall of Fame, which is is kind 774 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: of weird, but um, Coach K was the least accomplished 775 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: of the four. UM had not. You know, this kind 776 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: of it sounds odd, but it's true. My first n 777 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: C double A tournament game was Coach K's first, and 778 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: he'd never been there before. And and you know, my 779 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,839 Speaker 1: first a c C champions was his first, My first 780 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 1: final his first. And so it was kind of a weird, 781 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: weird issue that he was the least accomplished, But he 782 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: was the guy I trusted the most and he never 783 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: lied to me. Um, when I was being recruited, there 784 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 1: was I don't know, I don't know. You were from 785 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: a little further south in Orange County, but there was 786 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,919 Speaker 1: a restaurant in my area called the Red Onion, and 787 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 1: it was this Mexican joint, you know. And so when 788 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: Coach K visited me in my high school, we could 789 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: go I could go off up us for lunch. So 790 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: we went to this this little Mexican place. I mean, 791 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: this is like and so you know, you go for 792 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: a for a to the Mexican joint and have lunch. 793 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: I mean it might be four bucks for me and 794 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 1: four bucks for you. So the bill was probably ten 795 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: bucks for the two of us. And and I mean, 796 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if if this happened to 797 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 1: you does but you know, back then it wasn't that 798 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 1: people didn't respect the rules, but there was nobody else. 799 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: I went to lunch with where I had to pay, 800 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: and and Coach K split the bill with me, and 801 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: he said, look, this is stupid, but I we have to. Yeah, 802 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 1: we have to pay for our own. And I was like, 803 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: all right, this dude is legit. Man, He's not going 804 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: to Everything he says is right down the middle. And 805 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: I was being recruited by other other schools would negatively 806 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: recruit against Duke by saying, hey, you know, if you 807 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: go to Duke, you're going to play center there for 808 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: four years. And I was like, nah, he wouldn't you know, 809 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: that wouldn't happen. And I wound up it became such 810 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: an issue. I wanted up ask him about it, and 811 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: I said, you know, everybody's saying that you're gonna make 812 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: me play center. Uh if I come to Duke and 813 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: he goes well for a year, yeah, like you know, 814 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: we don't have anybody to play it like you could. 815 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: So for a year. Yeah, but I'll recruited another big 816 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: guy and you can move back to your natural position. 817 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 1: And he did. Um, it's just the big guys weren't 818 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 1: quite what he expected. And I never got to move 819 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: out of there. But but he never lied to me 820 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: and told me right away like for a year, yeah, 821 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: you're gonna have to do it and uh and and 822 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: I respected that and I really liked him and uh 823 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: and I trusted him from the get go. Um And 824 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: it was different back then. He was he was younger. Uh, 825 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: he was was very very energetic. He still is that. Uh. 826 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 1: And he was man, if you made a mistake, you 827 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: heard about it right away and there was no mistaking 828 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: um kind of where you stood overall and at that 829 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: moment and uh and it was not always pleasant on 830 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: that end, but it was but you knew you were 831 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: getting the absolute truth. And and that really appealed to me. 832 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: But Wayna didn't your sister go u c l A. 833 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: She did. My sister was My sister was a great 834 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: volleyball player. So she she was a freshman when I 835 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: was a senior. And so you know, me being in 836 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: the east, you know, he couldn't get back Like now, 837 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: there's no Internet or all that, so I never really 838 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: saw my sister play high school volleyball. And then when 839 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: I watched her play when when she got to college 840 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,720 Speaker 1: U c l A. And I came back for Christmas 841 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: my senior year and watched her play at U c 842 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: l A. I was blown away by how good she 843 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: was and by how good her team was. But yeah, 844 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: she she she played volleyball at U c l A. 845 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: And was you know, Phi Beta Kappa students. My sister 846 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 1: turns out her name is Cheryl. She she still lives 847 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 1: in Newport Beach. She was the best athlete in our family. 848 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,240 Speaker 1: She was the best at everything. She's the best student, 849 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: best athlete. Is ridiculous, how how talented she was and is. 850 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: And I always kind of thought it was me and 851 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: my brother, and then I found out later on. I 852 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 1: was like, no, we're we're we're pulling up the caboose 853 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: on this train. And she's the number one, number one 854 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 1: athlete in our family. Yeah, and she wasn't the high 855 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: school coach killer that you were. And that's really that's 856 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: really the legacy, the legacy you leave behind. So you 857 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: get you get to Durham, and I remember, it's interesting 858 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: you talked about being honest. And that's one of the 859 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: reasons I chose Notre Dame was John McCloud was was honest, 860 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: whereas I felt like it wasn't that Jim Herrick wasn't honest. 861 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 1: Uh he was. You know, they had taken a commitment 862 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: from a kid name illusion me man who was a 863 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: year behind me, and they were still recruiting Stephon Marbury 864 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: and and I'd say, like, listen, coach, you got Cameron 865 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,720 Speaker 1: Dollar there and I'd be a freshman. He's a junior, 866 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: you know, would would you promise me to not to 867 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 1: recruit over me? What Dougie? Five guys? We we played 868 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: the best five guys at U c l A. Whereas 869 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 1: John McLoud gave me his word that I'd started as 870 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: a freshman and I did, and you wouldn't recruit over 871 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: me and he didn't. Um. But I remember getting to 872 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,359 Speaker 1: Notre Dame and again, different part of the country than 873 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,320 Speaker 1: than Durham. I think both are beautiful campuses, all of 874 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,359 Speaker 1: the weather far better in North Carolina. And even though 875 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: I had traveled a lot with basketball and a lot 876 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 1: with my family, having family and the coast, I was 877 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: incredibly homesick. Did you go through that a little bit. Um. 878 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,359 Speaker 1: Mine was more the culture, the culture change that uh, 879 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: you know back then, like right now I live in 880 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: North Carolina now um in Charlotte, North Carolina, and uh 881 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: like chick fil As closed on Sunday. Well, when I 882 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: was in college, everything was closed on Sunday and uh, 883 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: and so it was it was just a different world. 884 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 1: Is the Bible Belt, um. And you had mentioned sort 885 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: of the makeup of the college campus, um, and that 886 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 1: that may have been exactly right as far as you know, 887 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: a lot of people from the Northeast and all that, 888 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: as far as the student body was concerned. But you 889 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: walked off campus and you were in the South. And 890 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: so that was a huge culture change for me. And 891 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,760 Speaker 1: and even though like you're right that the weather in Durham, 892 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 1: North Carolina is a lot better than it is in 893 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: South Bend, Indiana, but I was still freezing my my 894 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 1: tail offt during the wintertime relative to what southern California was. 895 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: Like I'm still I'm fifty four years old, and I 896 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: am still not used to the weather in the East. 897 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: Even where I live, um in which is a mild climate. 898 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 1: In in North Carolina, it's hotter than blazes during the summer, 899 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: and I still get chili during the wintertime. And you know, 900 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: I didn't own a coat when I grew up in 901 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 1: southern California. I had a sweatshirt and a windbreaker, but 902 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: I didn't have a coat. And I won when I 903 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: went back east and and UH, and so there was 904 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,799 Speaker 1: definitely I wasn't homesick as much as I was. This 905 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: isn't what I'm used to like, I know, So I 906 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: was an adjustment period. And then the basketball part was 907 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: a huge adjustment because you were going from UH, You're 908 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: going into you know, arguably the best league in the 909 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: country back then. Like my first a c C game, 910 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,440 Speaker 1: I had to guard Ralph Sampson. It wasn't much of 911 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: a contest. And Michael Jordan was at UH at North 912 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,800 Speaker 1: Carolina and Sam Perkins and all that. So the the 913 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: NC State won the national championship my freshman year out 914 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 1: of our league, and I think they finished fifth in 915 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: an eight team league and won the national championship. It 916 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 1: was it was a tough way to be sort of 917 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: welcomed into college basketball play in that league with all freshmen. Yeah, no, 918 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,400 Speaker 1: listen up, my mind. We were young and we finished 919 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: I was like it was back when the Big East 920 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 1: expanded and Syracuse finished fourth in the league and lost 921 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 1: the National Championship game to Kentucky. You know it was 922 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,880 Speaker 1: Yukon had Ray Allen and Nova had carried Kittles and 923 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: Georgetown was two in the country and they had they 924 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: had Allen Iverson. So I so, okay, let's let's start 925 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: with Ralph Sampson, three time Player of the Year. Um, 926 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: some of it was injuries, but some of it was 927 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: his game didn't translate to the NBA. You played against 928 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: him when he was at his absolute peak? What was it? 929 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,440 Speaker 1: What was Ralph Sampson? Like Ralph was seven four? He 930 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: was an incredibly graceful athlete that if he were six 931 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 1: seven would have been a great play because he could 932 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: shoot it. Um, he had great hands, he could really run, uh, 933 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 1: super athletic um. And you know, not the not the 934 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: you know sort of argue. But I actually think that 935 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: his game did translate to the NBA, that he was 936 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,800 Speaker 1: a twenty ten guy every year that he was healthy 937 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 1: and was m v P the All Star Game in 938 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: eighty five and and played you know in in Eli 939 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: Juan were the Twin Towers there with the with the Rockets. 940 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: But I remember seeing him play. I was playing overseas, 941 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: I think, and I came back as it was probably 942 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:37,760 Speaker 1: like nineteen nine, and I came back here and after 943 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,160 Speaker 1: my season was over, and I happened to be in Houston. 944 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 1: He was playing for the for the Sacramento Kings at 945 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,760 Speaker 1: the time, and his knees were shot and he couldn't 946 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: run anymore relative to what he could do before. And 947 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: I remember I remember going, God, that's it was. It 948 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 1: was like really sad to see a player that was 949 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,719 Speaker 1: so great being diminished in that way. And you know, 950 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: he's now in the Nasmith Basketball Hall of Fame, and 951 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,319 Speaker 1: I think rightfully so. But I think a lot of 952 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: people who look back on that time remember him as 953 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 1: a diminished player when his first five years in the league, 954 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: maybe maybe a little bit longer, he was unbelievably good 955 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 1: and played played incredibly like all star caliber. Well um, 956 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: but but his body broke down and that was that 957 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: was sort of the difference. But but he was like 958 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 1: two or three time National Player of the Year in college. 959 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: Nobody could deal with him. Nobody could was he was. 960 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 1: The three point line would have helped him because it 961 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: would have given him more space to operate because he 962 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: got triple teamed every time he touched it. All right, 963 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,759 Speaker 1: that's part one of my interview with ESPN College basketball 964 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:52,240 Speaker 1: savant analyst j billis Um. Coming up in part two, 965 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,719 Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask Jay about replacing Mike Zewski. I'm gonna 966 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: give him a list of all the potentials that f cables, 967 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 1: the Quinn Snyder's of the world, Steve Wojahowski, Chris Collins like. 968 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,840 Speaker 1: I'll give him every possible named Johnny Dawkins, Tommy America. 969 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,440 Speaker 1: Who's the right Mike Bray, Who's the right guy to 970 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,520 Speaker 1: replace coach k You'll find out in part two of 971 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,719 Speaker 1: my conversation with Jay billis So that's it for this 972 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: episode of All Ball. Make sure you subscribe, you download, 973 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,240 Speaker 1: you rate us. Listen to The Doug Gottlieb Show live 974 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 1: on Fox Sports Radio Daily three or six Eastern time, 975 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,439 Speaker 1: twelve to three Pacific. Keep listening. We appreciate it. I'm 976 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:32,759 Speaker 1: Doug Gotler. This is All Ball.