WEBVTT - Listener Questions #30 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:11.720 From twitching leaves to thinking minds, Where does I begin? 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:16.079 Is it wiring roots or loops that inspires thinking? 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:20.560 Birds have been around for one hundred and fifty million years, 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.000 but chickens less than half of that. So did chickens 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:27.280 come first? Or was it eggs? Go ahead, have a 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:29.480 guess it. It was kind of long. 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:34.279 These rhymes get better every time. To see the early universe, 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:38.000 we need neutrinos or gravitational ways. But how will we 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:40.919 know what to look for in all of that particle haze? 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.400 Whatever questions keep you up at night, Daniel and Kelly's 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:45.519 answers will make it right. 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.920 Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. 0:00:49.800 --> 0:01:00.160 Listener Questions, Episode thirty. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:06.000 Hi. 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.360 I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I never get 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:11.800 tired of hearing questions from listeners. 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.080 Hello. I'm Kelly Leadersmith. I study parasites and space, and 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:18.440 I also never get tired of your questions. They're always wonderful. 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:20.679 And Daniel, I have a question for you. Do you 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:23.399 prefer eggs that have been sitting in the refrigerator or 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:25.119 eggs that have been sitting on your counter? 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.039 Oh my gosh, I am not prepared to have an 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:29.880 opinion about that. Oh, why do they taste the same? 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.160 Well, you know, I just kind of they probably taste 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:37.520 pretty similar. But I've noticed that there are cultural differences. 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.120 I think in Europe you're more likely to get eggs 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:43.040 that don't need to be refrigerated, and so the differences 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.680 in the United States. I think we've rinse off our eggs, 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.280 and once you've rinsed them off, they need to be refrigerated. 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:51.040 But if you don't rinse off your eggs, they come 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.200 out of the chicken with a layer called a bloom, 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:57.160 which protects against bacteria and stuff like that. And so 0:01:57.240 --> 0:01:59.840 you can just leave chickens on your counter for a while. 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:01.600 You mean eggs on your counter. 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:07.960 We're chickens. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it, but yes, eggs. 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.840 Come to Kelly's Deli where chickens roam the counter. 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:14.600 Yeah, I bet I probably would not get a very 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.240 good health rating if we didn't. 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:21.040 Then, yeah, well there's something fascinating there that eggs are 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:25.120 protected from infection. But we usually rinse things because we 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:29.280 want them clean and uninfected. But here rinsing things makes 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.359 them more vulnerable to infection. 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:33.800 Yeah, I feel like in America, we want like ultimate 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:35.880 control over everything, and we just feel like we have 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.440 more control if we've shoved things in the fridge. And also, 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.200 I suppose every once in a while when an egg 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.280 comes out, it gets a little poo on it, and 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.960 so if you can rinse it and then stick it 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.440 in a fridge, you know, maybe you feel better about 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:50.080 it that way. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.480 I don't really want any poo on my counter, is 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:52.840 the truth. 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:54.560 Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. I get that. That 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.880 is one of the downsides of farm fresh chicken eggs 0:02:57.919 --> 0:02:59.560 is every once in a while you're like, oh, yes, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.480 biology happened here and there is some. 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.200 Poo and on your counter in your house at home 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.919 on the science farm, are there unwashed chicken eggs and 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:09.760 occasional pooh? 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:14.480 There are unwashed chicken eggs? Like, the answer is yes. 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:16.160 I was gonna try to figure out a nice way 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.880 to say it. You know, we've got like brushes to 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.040 clean them off before you crack them, to make sure 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.000 that none of that pooh ends up. Please come back 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:25.920 to our house and visit. 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:30.560 Sure, I will. Well, why don't you rinse them before 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:32.640 you crack them, because once you rinse them, they're not 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.360 protected but there's then there's just moments before you crack them. 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:37.800 Oh, we rinse and brush well, I mean, you know, 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.080 when the poo dries, it's harder to get off, and 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:42.000 so it's nice to have a brush, and so yeah, 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.120 we clean it all off right before we crack it 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.320 to make sure that, like you know, sometimes when I 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.640 crack eggs, I get shell in the bowl and we 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:51.560 just want to make sure that that's clean, because I'm 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:52.880 not so good at cracking eggs. 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.600 But you are very good at answering questions from listeners. 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:00.960 And that's what we're doing today on the podcast. We 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:03.560 are hearing from all of you everything that makes you 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:08.080 wonder about the universe, all the extraordinary fascinating mysteries about 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.480 the universe that you want to hear about. And so 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.280 today we are tackling three fascinating topics from biology to physics, 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:16.479 to the origins of the universe to the origins of 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:18.120 chickens and eggs. 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.800 Yes we are, so let's jump right in and hear 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:22.320 our question from Jared. 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.680 Hello. My name is Jared, and I'm a huge fan 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.600 of you both. I absolutely love your show. My three 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.840 children enjoyed the podcast. Also, my two preteen sons and 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.400 Joy Kelly's gross biology explanations, and my six year old 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.279 daughter likes to fall asleep to Daniel's voice during car rides. 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:42.520 My question today is about how we classify and explain 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.920 the different levels of self awareness in the universe. I've 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.720 been reading about how across the spectrum from reactivity to sapiens, 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:54.480 living systems exhibit increasingly complex forms of awareness, ranging from 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:59.360 basic stimulus response to sentience, self awareness, and ultimately sapiens, 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.760 which I now know is different than santhians. I've been 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.880 reading about how concepts like metacognition, reflective consciousness, and theory 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.800 of minds see the mark pivotal transitions along this continuum. 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:11.279 But the boundaries we've set up to define and described 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.680 as kind of spectrum of awareness are still fuzzy to me, 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:15.920 and it's led me to having like a ton of 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:19.920 smaller questions, like what's the difference between plants and machines 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:24.920 in terms of reactivity? Could mammals have moments of sapience 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:29.599 or could the boundaries be crossed accidentally temporarily? So I 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.000 was just hoping, with your distinct scientific advantage points that 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.960 you could help explain the fundamental physical or biological thresholds 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.800 that enable these higher levels of awareness to emerge from 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:41.680 simpler matter in life. And perhaps even let me know 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.200 if there are any overlooked mechanisms or principles perhaps at 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.640 the intersection of physics and biology that would be cool 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:50.440 that could help explain not only how these layers of 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:54.000 awareness arise, but also the current limits of our scientific 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:56.880 understanding of awareness and what might be the next breakthrough 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.400 that could reshape how we define or recognize it in 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:00.920 the universe. All right, thank you very. 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.279 Much, so thank you Jared number one for sharing the 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.240 podcast with your kids and helping raise the next generation 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.920 of curious people in the universe. Awesome, we love that. 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.880 Thank you so much. And also for asking such a hard, 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.680 such a deep question about the nature of sentience and 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.680 consciousness and whether we can understand how that emerges from 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:25.359 like core physical activity. 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:27.000 And I'd also like to note that I am so 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:30.240 glad that the next generation is still excited about gross stuff. 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:34.160 So thank you to the preteens for digging the gross biology. 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.159 But anyway, yes, wow, where do we start with this 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:38.360 difficult question? Daniel? 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.440 Yes, so we got to start by saying we're not 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.240 going to be offering any solid answers because there are none. Right, 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:48.599 we just do not understand this stuff. There are so 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:52.680 many issues here, from never being able to probe the 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:56.720 awareness of another object in the universe, not to mention 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:01.640 another human being right, first person experience this like subjective 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:03.919 existence that we have where I feel like I'm in 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.359 my head and I'm feeling my body. That's not something 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:09.479 I can share with you, not something you can probe 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.000 from the outside, not something you can verify. I don't 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.240 even know, Kelly, if you are any different fundamentally from 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.239 a rock in terms of your inner life. 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:17.880 Thanks Daniel. 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:19.880 I mean I think that you are. You seem different, 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.200 but I don't know from a philosophical skeptical point of view, 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.560 and that's fundamentally going to limit us from having any 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:26.400 solid answers. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:28.559 Well, I think the good news is that people don't 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:32.640 really come to our podcast for solid answers. They come 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:35.600 to our podcast for the we don't really know version 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:37.679 of answers and so, and. 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:39.520 You do that much better than a rock does that. 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.320 By the way, You're much better podcast host than like 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:43.200 a lump of granite. 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:44.400 Thanks question Mark. 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.040 But Jared is asking a really interesting question. About like 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:56.200 the spectrum of reactivity, right, Like, how do we categorize 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.000 these things? How do things get more complicated? Is there 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.280 a way that we can under stand not just reactivity, 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:06.480 but like sentience and conscious experience by gradually scanning up 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.600 from simple reactivity to the universe all the way up 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:13.240 to you know, having a first person experience. So let's 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.600 take a walk from the simplest to the more complex. 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.560 We can start with like physical reactivity. Things in the 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.200 universe react to other things, you know, like if you 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:24.400 have a rock out there in the sun, it will 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:28.040 absorb photons, it will gain mass, it will change the 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.040 nature of the chemical bonds, it will store that energy. 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:35.760 So that's you know, direct causal reaction to something outside 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.640 the universe, just like if you press a button on 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.360 your toaster or you write a program for your computer. 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.600 The universe seems to be causal. It seems like you 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:48.200 can influence the future, and so things that happen in 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.839 the universe affect the future. Right, that's like the most 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.559 basic level at which things in the universe interact. 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:57.760 Got it, Yes, rocks and Kelly warm up. Let's uh, 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:00.200 let's move to more comp. 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.160 Before we get to more complex though you can already 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.840 ask does the rock feel anything like the rock is 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:09.679 sitting in the sun, it's getting warmed up. Does it 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:13.720 go in its own rocky way? Like, mmm, that feels nice, 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:15.680 the way like when you have your face in the sun, 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.679 it feels nice. Obviously, what it's like to be a 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.560 rock is not going to be what it's like to 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.800 be Kelly or Daniel or Jared or any of his kids. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.760 But there might be something it's like to be that rock, 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.480 and we can't say that it isn't. And there are 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:36.439 even theories out there that everything in the universe is aware, 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:38.800 it is conscious at some level, so that by the 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:42.440 time we get to podcast host, we can say that 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:47.200 that podcast hosts rich inner life, which enjoys poo free eggs, 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:52.439 for example, comes emerges from the basic elements of consciousness 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:55.640 that begin with fundamental particles. You know that electrons have 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.480 like a little bit of consciousness and it comes together. 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.520 I'm not ascribing to that theory. I'm just saying there 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:05.120 are people who already, at this level of interaction with 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:09.880 the universe put a little dot of awareness and experience. 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.520 Is there an interesting question to be asked here about, 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:14.760 like if you asked AI, and it gave you an 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:18.320 answer about its experienced, like because it can answer. Is 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:19.400 that an interesting answer? 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.120 Well, it's interesting because an AI, unlike a rock, can 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.839 tell you that it has an inner life. Right, if 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:29.520 you ask Gemini or chat GPT, they can tell you 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.400 that they think that they feel that they have thoughts whatever. 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:36.760 You can't tell the difference between them having those thoughts 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:40.080 and claiming those thoughts, or them not having those thoughts 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.000 and yet claiming those thoughts, because you could write a 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.240 program which claims those thoughts and you don't know that 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.679 it actually has them. Right, Claiming them and having them 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.400 are different things. And in philosophy we have this concept 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:55.040 of a philosophical zombie, and the thought experiment is like, could, 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.360 for example, there be a version of Kelly who claims 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.280 to have a rich inner life and acts unless she 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.480 has a rich inner life, and yet doesn't. 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:05.240 You did compare me to a rock earlier. 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.520 In a flattering, complimentary west You're better than a rock, 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:15.480 much much better than thank you. In fact, you rock, Kelly. 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.760 But the point of that thought experiment, the philosophical zombie, 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.440 is to point out that the subjective experience we're talking 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:27.920 about that inner life is not revealed by your actions. 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.800 That there's nothing on the exterior you can do to 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.719 probe it, so that even somebody who seems to have it, 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.760 even somebody you fall in love with, might not have 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.199 an interior life. And there are examples of people out 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:41.160 there who like fall in love with ch at GPT 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.679 and have like AI boyfriends and feel real emotions about them, 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.600 and imagine that the AI also feels real emotions in response, 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.200 even if it doesn't. So my point is that already 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.000 at this level, the philosophical questions are complicated. 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:56.680 M hm, yes, and I am already sort of feeling 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.800 existential dreads. So all right, let's move on to the 0:11:58.840 --> 0:11:59.360 next level. 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.920 All right, So the next level is like biological. We 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:07.360 have simple plants that can do things like organize their cells. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:11.640 They maintain gradients across cell walls. Plants can orient their 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.360 leaves to the sun. This is more than just like 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.800 a rock absorbing a photon. There's like a feedback here, 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.360 there's like memory, you know, there's maybe even goal like behavior. 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.599 The plants move towards the sun, trees grow up, the 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.760 roots go down. There's goal like behavior here, but sort 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.000 of implicit, right, We don't know if the plant is 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:35.320 like stretching towards the sun and enjoying having its leaves toasted, 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.080 but it's definitely more self organized and reactive to the 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.720 universe than just a rock. And there are some cases 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.880 that some people tout slime molds for example of you 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:50.640 know what seems like maybe intelligent behavior exploring a maze. 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.120 Though I know, Kelly, that you are not in the 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.000 top ten list of people who are impressed by slime 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:56.840 mold intelligence. 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.360 Check out one of our earlier Listener Questions episode to 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:05.280 hear a Kelly throw cold water on slimbles solved mazes. 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:07.560 And you do that even better than a bucket of 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:08.719 cold water. I have to. 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.360 Say, thank you, and maybe better than a rock. And 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:15.079 there's all kinds of inanimate objects that I can outperform. 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.840 All right, So now let's take one more step up 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:22.200 the perceptual ladder to critters that have like explicit sensory organs, 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.760 you know, even simple things like ants and flies. They 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:29.599 have eyes, they can experience the world. They have chemical sensors. 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.960 They communicate with each other, They leave trails for each other, 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.240 you know, they make sounds, they leave chemicals. They definitely 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.960 can learn. I have a friend who does experiments on 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:43.240 fruit flies, and they definitely can learn sounds and songs 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.120 and all sorts of stuff. We don't know what it's 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.640 like to be an ant. There doesn't have to be 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.640 anything it's like to be an ant or fruitfly. You 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:55.160 could have like a little robot which accomplishes exactly the 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.360 same thing and doesn't have any internal state. But there 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.120 also could be something it's like to be an ant 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.079 or a fruit fly. We just don't know. 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.080 Do you think that there's some chance that we're sort 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.600 of biasing this towards ourselves by saying, like, oh, they 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.240 need to have sense organs, like the kinds of sense 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.040 organs I recognize in myself, you know, because like plants 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.640 are detecting where the sun is so that they can 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.880 turn towards it, so they've got something like sense organs. 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:24.120 Are we essentially defining oh yeah, things, yeah, to match 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:24.800 what we do. 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.640 Absolutely and obviously, and I don't know that we could 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.640 do anything else. The only thing we can do is 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.400 ask about similar experience. Is we can try to think 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.880 about what it might be like to be something else, 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.840 But in the end, we're always translating the unfamiliar back 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.800 into the language of the familiar. You know, this is 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.200 like a big theme of my book about alien physics 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:48.240 is that it's really hard to think outside of your 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.240 own little box. And so it could be that there's 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:53.600 something it's like to be a rock and a plant 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.240 which is very, very different from what it's like to 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:58.960 be human, and it's rich and complicated in a way 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.280 we just can't underst stand or even conceive of. Even 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:03.760 if we could talk to them and they could try 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:06.160 to explain it to us, we might never really be 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:09.160 able to crock it because there are some things that 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:10.400 are just untranslatable. 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:15.160 Do aliens speak? Physics available through fine bookstores everywhere. 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.960 And also terrible bookstores. Yeah, so we've gone from rocks 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:24.600 to like plants to now critters with explicit sensory organs. 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:26.640 You can take them the next step up and say, well, 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.520 what about more intelligent animals, Animals that have a model 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.360 of the world within them. You know that they can 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:37.480 integrate sensory information over time, They have memory, they can 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.280 be trained, they can make predictions. You know, they don't 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:43.840 just react to the world and have basic memory. They 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.240 have like a model of themselves in the world. And 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.520 they use that to make predictions. That's clearly a more 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:54.520 sophisticated way to respond to the world. And in that case, 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:56.960 it's tempting to say, look, if you have a mind, 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.239 and in that mind you have a model of yourself, 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.760 then clearly referring to yourself. And isn't that a kind 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:06.880 of experience. It seems very likely. And you know, when 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.960 I interact with my dog, it's very easy for me 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.400 to see parallels in my dog's emotional response to my own, 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.760 Like he likes being scratched, and I can tell that 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.440 he likes it, right, Or if I'm upset with him, 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.960 he knows, and I can tell that he doesn't like 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.000 when I'm upset with him. All these things, And again, 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.800 maybe it's just the slice of humanity that is reflected 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.160 in the dog, but there's definitely some overlap there. Right, 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.240 whatever it's like to be a dog, there are parts 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:32.680 of it that are similar enough to what it's like 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:36.440 to be human that we can have that emotional connection, right, 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.920 And so it's very tempting to say, well, clearly my 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.160 dog has an inner life. It is something it's like 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.760 to be Daniel's dog. But again, how do I really 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:49.920 know if somebody came along and like magically removed that 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.080 experience from my dog but kept all the same behavior. Obviously, 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:57.120 I couldn't tell by construction. So it's frustratingly opaque. 0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.280 Yeah, it does kind of feel like you were a 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:01.640 little bit more will to entertain the idea that your 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.040 dog has a rich inner life than you were to 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:06.840 entertain the idea that your co host has a rich 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:07.880 inner life. 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:10.840 I'll say, in my defense, I made that argument as 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.040 an example of ridiculous but unrefutable arguments. 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.080 Right, I'm just giving you a hard time. 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.320 Okay, go on, No, but I mean I only have 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.400 a dog in my house. You have a whole spectrum 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:25.280 of critters. Give us a sordid list from most to 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:27.280 least likely to have an inner life. 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:29.760 Chickens, no inner life. 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.120 Chickens are just robots, you're saying. 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:38.760 Just robots, just robots. And my doggy milo very rich 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.440 inner life. And my goats, you know, I think my 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:43.960 goats are very frustrated when I don't let them out 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:46.760 on time or when I come out without animal crackers, 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.320 and they've got a rich inner life. 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.959 And then you know, the next step, of course, is 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.639 full sapience. You know where you can think, you have language, 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.840 you can have abstract concepts, you can think about thinking, 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.000 you can argue about it, arguing to have a rich 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.600 inner life and a model of the world that includes 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.800 yourself and your own model of the world in it. 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.080 And it's recursive all the way down. Where along this 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:14.600 spectrum does experience emerge, We just don't know, right This 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.359 is what they call the hard problem of consciousness. Even 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:22.720 if you can understand mechanically how the brain works, signals 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.119 go up the optic nerve dot dot dot, that doesn't 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.040 tell you why there's something it's like to be a person. 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.560 And so you know, there's all these various approaches that 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.440 people take in the philosophical community. We mentioned one of 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:39.440 them already, pan psychism, where mentality is a fundamental aspect 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:43.560 of reality, like mass or charge. It's not the idea that, 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.920 like electrons have political opinions, but that there's some sort 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:51.200 of minimal experiential properties of all matter at the most 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.080 basic level, and that the experience doesn't emerge suddenly but 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:59.679 gradually from the simple experiences combining into richer experiences of 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:04.000 complex systems. That's a not of like widely held or 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.840 mainstream view, but it is an opinion I've seen out there. 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:08.800 I feel like I've sort of lost track of what 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.760 we mean by experience and mentality at this point, So like, 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:15.360 experience must mean more than like a photon has hit 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:17.720 me and I have recognized that the photon has hit me, 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.680 and mentality must be Yeah, Like, what do we mean 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.439 now by experience and mentality? 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.679 I mean that there's something it's like to be you. Okay, 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.199 you know that you're having a first person experience, got it? 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:30.480 Okay? 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:32.919 And there are people who deny that, right, Folks like 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.680 Daniel Dennett, a school of thought called reductive physicalism, say 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.959 there's no first person experience, that there is no moment 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.879 of Now. What you think you are experiencing right now 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.080 is just your brain analyzing what recently happened, right that 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.440 the moment of the present itself is an illusion, and 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:55.720 it's constructed by your brain putting together a bunch of 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:59.159 sensor reinformation telling a story about what just happened. And 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.440 it's so recent. You surf along the edge of it 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:04.280 and it feels like there's a you, but there isn't really, 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:09.320 So you weirdly remember being conscious, but never really are. 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:11.639 It's a fascinating idea. 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.520 Are we in like a simulation or we're just like. 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.479 No, no, we are not in a simulation. We are 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.399 just remembering a present we never experienced. This is a 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:24.960 fascinating idea and it's hard to wrap your mind around. 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:29.040 It's in Daniel Denni's book Consciousness Explained, which is like, wow, 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.880 ambitious title. Right, Yeah, it's a really fun book and 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:36.120 we should dive into it more another time. Another idea 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:40.119 is called functionalism. It says, look, it's all about information. 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:44.000 It doesn't matter what matter it is. It's not like 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:46.879 the sentience is built into the electron and then it 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:49.919 all comes together. It's about how this stuff is arranged, 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:53.400