1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Andy and welcome to Stuff Mom never 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: told you a production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. 3 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: And today we have another bit, another bit, another bonus 4 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: episode for a bit of a bonus, A bit of 5 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: a bonus. Um and trigger warnings for today right off 6 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: the bat uh sexual assault, abuse and child Malla's station. Um. 7 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: And yeah, this is kind of similar to one we 8 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,639 Speaker 1: had recently with Renee and Rebecca. You know, we discussed 9 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: the importance previously of law enforcement and dismissed cases or 10 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: dismissing cases, but we didn't get into what happens if 11 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: a survivor decided to go to child So we brought 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: into people to speak to those things. Yes, we have 13 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: today an episode of two inn used one with Justin, 14 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: an ex detective, and with another Samantha Samantha not who 15 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: worked for three years as a prosecutor in Florida and 16 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: you heard them clips from them in past episodes. As 17 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: we were doing these episodes. To be honest, this Samantha 18 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: and Yes, we both thought, well, with all these downsides, 19 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: why would anyone ever report? And we generally like to 20 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: end on something positive and we were having trouble finding 21 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: that positive thing. But then you. Samantha stumbled on this 22 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: Facebook video from Justin, who specializes in trauma informed training. Yeah. 23 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: I was really excited to see law enforcement or a 24 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: person of law enforcement come out and become an advocate 25 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: for trauma inform training because it's so rare that it 26 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: comes out of law enforcement is usually typically out of 27 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: like people in the world of counseling and or um 28 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: that type of level of treatment. So when he when 29 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: I saw this video, I was so excited that he, 30 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: as a strong advocate and strong ally for victims, also 31 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: got in touch with the lawyer so we could go 32 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: into what happens when a survivor actually goes to trial. 33 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: We're going to be hearing from both of them throughout 34 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: this episode, so let's get into these interviews. My name 35 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: is Justin Borkman, and I am a retired police detective 36 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: from the city of West Valley City in Utah, which 37 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: is the active suburb of Salt Lake City. I was 38 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: a police officer for fifteen years. I spent eight years 39 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: in patrol, so responding to um every type of problems 40 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: you can imagine, and in this department we responded a lot. 41 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: We did the most amount of cases per officer for 42 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: a year in the States. We were extremely understaffed. You 43 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: could go from a vehicle burglary to a gang shooting 44 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: in no time flat. Um. And then I went to 45 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: detective where I spent seven years in the Special Victims Unit. 46 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: During that time in the Special Victims JUnit, I was 47 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: a sign just about cases. Um. So if you do 48 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: the math, that's a lot of cases to burn through, 49 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: if you will. So those are adult rapes, mostly child 50 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: sexual assault, uh, child abuse, elder abuse, that sort of thing. 51 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: So it's a pretty heavy emotional type of caseload, if 52 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: you will. During this time, I went through a change, 53 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: and that change is starting to happen like across the 54 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: United States actually around the world. Um. And it's very 55 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: exciting time. It's also a very frustrating time for our 56 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: public and a frustrating time for the police as well. 57 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: One of the reasons that we asked you to come on. 58 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: I saw a video on Facebook because I get all 59 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: of these alerts and I love it that talk about 60 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: some good changes that have been happening. UM, And I 61 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: kind of wanted you if you can explain what do 62 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: you do today? So I left police work five years 63 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: before retirement so I gave up all that so that 64 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: I could go out and train and consult on trauma 65 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: informed investigation and procedural justice for our victims of crime 66 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: within the justice system. Can you explain a mouthful? Yeah, 67 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: that's a lot. I was gonna say. Can you explain 68 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: what trauma informed investigation is? What that actually is? Yes? So, 69 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: in an of itself, the two words trauma informs is confusing. 70 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: As I'll get out, there are numerous amounts of definition 71 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: to what trauma informs means, but I kind of take 72 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: the general version of everything, which means you're informed about 73 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: what trauma is and how it presents itself, and you're 74 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: informed about it. So that's kind of where I go. 75 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: Most of my stuff is changing the places within the 76 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: justice system that can be trauma informs, and when you 77 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: talk to prosecution you'll see some of that a little 78 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: bit more. But our um accused have the right to 79 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: cross examinate the accuser, so that is it's confrontational, that's 80 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: not trump informed. And that's just one little example. But 81 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: wherever we can make the changes to eat too. So 82 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: when I first went into the Special Missile Say here 83 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: was I was actually assigned to the property squad and 84 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: usually that is where guys will cut their teeth, learning 85 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: the system of screening cases and doing things differently than 86 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: what they were out on the troll. And I had 87 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: done that for six year, six your six months, and 88 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: there was an opening in the Special Victims Unit. And 89 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: what happened is I found my life calling. I would 90 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: go home at night and my daughter was eight years 91 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: old and I had just talked to an eight year 92 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: old about horrible things that had happened to her. But 93 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: I was being trained by the older guard of the 94 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: Special Dictrim student. We are cooked as a society, um 95 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: and especially as police officers about what sexual staff looks like. 96 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: What are what's normal, what's not normal? How do people present? 97 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: Most of them are faults, right, that's on our head um. 98 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: And I started the exact same way. And when we 99 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: would approach the case with the survivor, um that there 100 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: were certain ways that we did think that we're not 101 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: trauma forms Number one, number two. They close out the 102 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: cases fast because we had a huge caseload and we 103 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: don't have enough staffing. So I was doing the exact 104 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: same things as everybody else. And when I was investigating 105 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: child Sextus, assault. I was a little bit more focused. 106 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: We had a little bit more training on that. But 107 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: it seems like as soon as somebody would get UM 108 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: upward teens, young adulthood, that's a team they they just 109 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: turned into liar liar pants on fire UM. And it 110 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: wasn't fitting great with me, But there wasn't any way 111 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: around it. We didn't know. I would come in on 112 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: Monday morning, I would look in my box and maybe 113 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: there would be a sexual assault examined board in there, UM, 114 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: and I would look through it. And what we do 115 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: is we would call up our victim and we would say, hey, UM, 116 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: I just read through your board. I'm sorry this happened 117 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: to you. And I see that you don't have You're 118 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: not remembering a lot. There's alcohol involved, which happens a 119 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: lot UM. Actually alcohol is a tool UM that could 120 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: be used, can be use to futilitate sexual assault. And 121 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 1: I go, you know, there's witnesses here. Could you give 122 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: me the list of all the people that were there. 123 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: The officers didn't do that. I'm there. I'm seeing they 124 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: got one or two, but there was twenty people there. 125 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: I need to talk to UM and can give me 126 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: that information by maybe Thursday. Uh, unless you don't want 127 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: to keep going forward. While I was planting all this 128 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: down in their brains and I didn't know that, and 129 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: I was putting these huge tasks on somebody who has 130 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: just been raised for health. Say so, I tell them, 131 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: you know, if I don't hear from you by this date, 132 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to close out your case, but it can 133 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: be reopened don't you feel like you want to come 134 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: forward later. Well, you know, Monday morning would come around. 135 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: The next Monday, I hadn't heard from them, so I 136 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: closed out their case. UM reduced what break case closed 137 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: and that was it. I'd never hear from them again. 138 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: And that first year I was we had detectives of 139 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: about thirty six and like I said, we were very active, 140 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: homicided everything else. And I was awarded Investigator of the 141 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: Year because I was making a lot of arrest with 142 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: the kid cases, but turning through them really fast, getting 143 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: rid of cases. But I was closing out all the 144 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: insults right. UM. A couple of years go by year 145 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: two and I go to a train that was poor 146 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: child sexual assault. But an attorney was there, Tea Chaine 147 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: on the neurobiology of trauma and a breakout session. So 148 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: if you've ever been to big conferences, they had these 149 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: little breakout sessions. Well, I wanted to go to another one, 150 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: but I was a social butterfly. Well, and I was 151 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: talking in the hall too long and the class I 152 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: wanted to was filled. But I knew my sergeant was 153 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: patrolling the hallways, so I quickly, I quickly tucked into 154 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: the neurobiology of trauma and sat in the back, and 155 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: she was actually talking about adult cases, not children cases, 156 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: and was explaining all the things that I was closing 157 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: the cases for was actual evidence, psychological evidence that something 158 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: horrible has happened to this person. So what it did 159 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: was took everything and looked at this on an ear. 160 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: Everything was opposite. So if um, she had gaps in 161 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: her memory, I would go, oh, she is making stuff 162 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: up and she's just hit my highlights. But now that 163 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: was actually something very bad happened to that person, and 164 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: I went, huh interesting, Okay, But I went back to 165 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: my desk and started going through my cases in regular time. 166 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: But I started seeing this stuff that she had mentioned. 167 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: My ah, that's weird. About months later I went and 168 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: saw her again. She was presenting it SA and then 169 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: it it happened. Um, I had my first moment of 170 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: aha and guilt. I started going, well, everything that the 171 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: system is defining these cases of these brave men and 172 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: women that have come forward, is actually evident that something happened. 173 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: Of the rapes that had biological evidence collected, only six 174 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: percent of those were being prosecuted. Um. If you've read 175 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: the book Missoula Bazoola, Montana, John Krakauer's book came in 176 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: at four percent prosecution RAG and the Department of Justice 177 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: came in and started slinging. And so we had a 178 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: six percent. And Violence Against Women International has a served 179 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: as study from two thousands two thousand, Well, it came 180 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: back to nationwide we were at five point six percent 181 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: of the people that reported. We know that people report 182 00:13:54,480 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: rape les, Yeah, six percent. Can you imagine if you're 183 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:09,359 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, where you guys are from, at a prosecution 184 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: rate of six percent of popify, what would your public do? 185 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: So we had a six percent prosecution rate. Um, and 186 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: so we installed this protocol. Is some training with the detectives, 187 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: We did all sorts of different things with the full 188 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: board UH Institutional Review Board study from university so in 189 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: a here we went to six percent, which is a 190 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: increase with fall numbers, but honestly, gouts pent. That sucks, 191 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: but we could do better than that. And so that's 192 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: what's been starting to change around the country in law 193 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: enforcement is we're starting to learn about this trauma stuff, 194 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: and this trauma stuff we actually have been taught about 195 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: on and on in the police academy, however in a 196 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: different area. So what that means is when we train, 197 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: we train most of the stuff that's on our bat 198 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: felt for safety, but we do think during um firearms 199 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: training that is to help with trauma. But we haven't 200 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: been giving that to our victim. We haven't recognized it 201 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: and them. So there's a huge disconnecting that can actually 202 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: start changing tomorrow. Um. It's not gonna be an overnight thing, 203 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: but it can start changing tomorrow. Um we just go 204 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: you're extremely hard to change. Um that it needs to 205 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: start now, and there's so much positive things happening. Also, 206 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: part of that study was how did our victim feel 207 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: after the interview, not after the investigation is done, but 208 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: from report to interaction with detective And we had a 209 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: nineties seven percent positive feedback from our victim was a 210 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: trauma informed or right after the trauma forms interview, not 211 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: after the investigation. Was because some of them would not 212 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: uh the prosecutive That could certainly change it, but we 213 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: wanted to know how they felt up to that point, 214 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: if they felt her listen to uh that sort of thing. 215 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: And it was seven per seven positive. So that is 216 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: indications that we're doing something right. Sadly, we're not going 217 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: to prosecute every single case. It doesn't mean that our 218 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: rapists is not guilty of it. Most of them are 219 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: um really false reports tiny tiny bit um two to 220 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: eight percent is what they say out of my twelfth 221 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: under cases I had to that I proved probab will 222 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: cause is a high standard that we have to meet legally. 223 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: UM civil standard is our victim could be and should 224 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: be filing lawsuits against their um they're suspect. What we 225 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: need to figure out, I think, is what justice looks 226 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: like to our victim. It's gonna be different from everybody, 227 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: like a fingerprint, like your trauma. Everybody's aunt um and 228 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: may its procedural justice and counseling. Maybe it's not the 229 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: justice system, maybe it's the civil system. Maybe it is 230 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: the justice system, and we're gonna try our best I 231 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: have one of my survivors who would also be happy 232 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: to talk. Went through the system that did not trauma informed. 233 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: She went through the interview process and stuff that was UM. 234 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: She was it was an alcohol facilitated and sexual assault 235 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: at her home with her husband in another room with 236 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: some other friends and stuff and UM, DNA evidence everything, 237 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: And it went for three years waiting for triumph and 238 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 1: then at trial, UM, the jury came back not guilty. 239 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: I was devastated. I was actually in another state training. 240 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: It was just was last year. Do you know what? 241 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: I got a text messages checking on me from my victims. Wow, 242 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: that's procedural justice. She was devastated, but she knew she 243 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: was heard of all the way through that and she 244 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: got to say her peace. UM. It's sad our jury 245 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: pools are not the as educated and that's kind of 246 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: what you guys are doing right now for us, beautiful. 247 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: So usually who brings me in our nonprofit victim organization 248 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: UM paid for by Bedroom Bram, so Pedroom Bram don't 249 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: pay him a lot, But it's more about the passion 250 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: and getting out small areas and talking about it for me. UM. 251 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: Sometimes the police department will and they're guarding to do 252 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: that a little bit more now. But police department, sadly enough, 253 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: they spend what little training money that they have towards UM, 254 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: towards things that they get sued for. Our survivors are 255 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: victims of sexual assaults around the country. Their cases have 256 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: been in a way well, I don't know if that 257 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: can even this word this handled. And you know, I 258 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: did some of the same things. I didn't know what 259 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: I didn't know. But sometimes little civil lawsuits like that 260 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: will help change the system. Uh So that's happening in 261 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: bigger scales around the country at this point. There's a 262 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: big class action lawsuits and pot of Texas where I 263 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: think it's a deven or eight Jane does are is 264 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: doing the sheriff's department, the police department, in the District 265 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: Attorney's office, UM sporting finding their cases. When you think 266 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: about this, with the prosecution rate of four percent, five 267 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: point six percent, six percent, even most of the people 268 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: that report sexual assault our female, when you prosecute, only 269 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: a single digit percent of the cases comes out to 270 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: be gender discrimination. So there's a lot of change starting 271 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: to happen. We talked a little bit about where you 272 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier about the B two movements, which has did 273 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: nothing but good UM for our systems. Of course, people 274 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: are being freaked out, and there's uh men that are 275 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: overreacting to it UM thinking that they can't do this, 276 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: that or the other. Content. It's not it's not hard. However, 277 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: the me too movement has only scratched a tiny tiny 278 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: bit of the surface. If you look at the surveys 279 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: and the studies, he ain't seen nothing yet. The amount 280 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: of false reports of other cases equals doubt to be 281 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: the same as sexual soft um so false burglary cases 282 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: for insurance fraud same percentage both UM, crashes of cars 283 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: for insurance same thing UM. And some of it done criminally, 284 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: some of it is done because of UM mental and 285 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: psychological problem. If it's something that the victim feels like, 286 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: they want to talk out through a mediator and not 287 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: go through the other stuff, at least get to acknowledgement 288 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: or some sort of closure or an agreement UM, whether 289 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: it's monetary or counseling or what have you. That may 290 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: not be a bad thing either. They depends on what 291 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: justice looks like to you. Since you were talking to 292 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: and your listeners are more on the jury pool. The 293 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: way their biology happened, and way it presents two people 294 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: as counterintuitive to what we were raised to think and see. 295 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: And the first person that's somebody to disclose the sexual assaults, 296 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: who is so important to the system and to their 297 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: um healing, the victim's healing. And you know you hear 298 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: the term starting by believing that's good. Um, things like that, 299 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: but really just show some empathy and don't question about 300 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 1: what happened. Um, are suspects, if you will. Our are 301 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: can be predators, and they worked very hard and they're 302 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: very good at what they do. And people think that 303 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: the victims are lying. They were set up, they were 304 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: groomed for the most part um and rape is not 305 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: something that happened in back alleyways often. UM, it's mostly 306 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: acquaintance rapes. And so give them the love that they 307 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: need and hear them out. That would be the big 308 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: thing we agree to ful partly. And since we are 309 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: talking to the potential jury, let's talk about what a 310 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: trial might look like. We'll get into that after a 311 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: quick break for a word from our sponsor, h and 312 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: we're back, Thank you sponsor. So, what happens if after 313 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: filing the police report, a survivor does decide to go 314 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: to court. UM. Yeah, and here's Samantha, who is going 315 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: to speak more on that. I'm Samantha. I was a 316 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: prosecutor for three years down in Florida. UM. I did 317 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: primarily felony prosecutions, UM, which included drug cases and assaults 318 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: and sex crimes and all of that stuff. I would say, 319 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: out of the sex crimes cases that came through our door, 320 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: maybe ten to fifteen percent were the adult cases. Unfortunately, 321 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: the majority of X crimes that prosecutors deal with, at 322 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: least in the jurisdictions UM I was in where child 323 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: molestation cases. So typically at the point where a prosecutor's 324 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: office is gonna get the case or be assigned the 325 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: case UM is after the initial report has been submitted 326 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: by the victim. UM, all of those initial steps by 327 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: law enforcement have taken place, the you know, a rape kit, 328 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: potentially interviews, UM investigation. The investigation might still be ongoing 329 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: when it's submitted to the prosecutor's office, but typically there's 330 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: enough to substantiate and arrest UM and charge the person 331 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: UM the perpetrator. So UM at that point, the prosecutor's 332 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: office really takes over and it really becomes a legal 333 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: situation at that point, moving towards trial. UM. In the 334 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: office that I used to work in, and I think 335 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: it's probably true in most offices, there's some sort of 336 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: victim liaison UM. We used to call them a victim 337 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: advocate SIGNED. Typically there are people who have a social 338 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: work background, some sort of experience, and they really coordinate 339 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: between the victim and the prosecutor assigned to that matter 340 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: UM to keep the victim in the loop about the case, 341 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: what's going on, answer any questions that they may have, 342 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. So from the point of 343 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: the initial charging to a trial UM. Sex prime matters 344 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: tend to be more serious, so they can take UM 345 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: quite quite a bit of time to actually go to 346 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: a trial. I would estimate probably about a year UM, 347 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: give or take. It can depend on a number of factors, 348 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: how busy the courtroom is, that that case is assigned 349 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: to other types of trials that might be in the 350 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: pipeline ahead ahead of it UM, and just availability of witnesses, 351 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: availability of law enforcement to come to stify UM, and 352 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: also sometimes what is best for the victim. Now, in 353 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: most jurisdictions there is the defendant does have a right 354 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: to something called a speedy trial that they can invoke, 355 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: which would speed up the process of the trial UM 356 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: usually six days something of that nature. In reality, though 357 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: very few people UM invoke that right to a speedy 358 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: trial UM's it just generally doesn't benefit a defendant to 359 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: do that. I would have thought the opposite. They usually 360 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: want to conduct try to get as much discovery as possible. 361 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: And what is discovery Just for people to understand, sure, 362 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: that's basically the exchange of information. So the defendant side 363 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: is gonna want to see every all the information that 364 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: the law enforcement has, the prosecutors have that they're going 365 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: to use at the trial UM, and prosecutors are required 366 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: to turn over anything that might exculpaid or UM be 367 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: beneficial to the defendants. UM. Discovery can also include depositions, 368 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: which is when the defense attorney is going to have 369 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: an opportunity to interview UM witnesses on the record, sworn 370 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: under oath, and it'll be transcribed the standard for criminal cases, 371 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: it's the highest standard there is, beyond a reasonable doubt UM. 372 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: We say, the only thing short of that is no 373 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: doubt UM. So the prosecutors are always mindful of their 374 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: standard of evidence that they're going to have to prove 375 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: in order to get a jury to convict, because that's 376 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: ultimately the goal is a jury conviction. UM. So there 377 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: are occasions when the case ends up being dismissed by 378 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: the prosecutor. In my office, that was fairly rare. We 379 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: wanted to really do that work up front to make 380 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: sure we were proceeding with cases that could go to trial, 381 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: and when there were weaknesses in our case, we were 382 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: more apt to try to look at a play or 383 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: something of that nature UM that maybe neither side was 384 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: totally happy with but could live with. UM. So that 385 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: would that would be our first priority before just simply 386 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: dropping a case. So in the courtroom, UM, these trials 387 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: are almost always going to be jury trials. UM. So 388 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: the first step is that the prosecutor is going to 389 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: select the jury, and the victim won't be UM at 390 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: this portion. Frankly, they won't really be in the courtroom 391 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: at all except to UM provide their testimony. Once they 392 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: do testify, they can usually sit in the courtroom for 393 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: the remainder of the trial if they want to UM. 394 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: But before they testify, there's something called a rule of sequestration, 395 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: which means that they don't want witnesses um testimony be 396 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: influenced by each other, So they don't want people who 397 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: haven't testified yet to be sitting in there hearing what 398 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: other people are saying. So until a witness, until a 399 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: victim testifies, they're usually not going to be in the 400 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: courtroom for all of the preliminary issues on the day 401 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: of the victims testimony. Again, our office had that victim 402 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: advocate that would be there with them. UM. They would 403 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: have been prepared by the prosecutor ahead of time, typically 404 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: walked through general questions that the prosecutors plan to ask UM, 405 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: and that really that's kind of a prosecutor by prosecutor thing. 406 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: I personally never liked to give people the specific questions 407 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: I was going to ask them. I wanted them to 408 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: know generally areas I was going to ask, because I 409 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: didn't want people to over prepare and them be thrown 410 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: off if something went astray. UM. But then they would 411 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: come in the courtroom. Usually our victim advocate would sit 412 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: in the courtroom so that they would have somebody UM 413 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: to be to look at, a friendly face to look at. 414 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: And I always encourage them, UM to really talk to 415 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: the jury. UM. Direct their answers to the jury and 416 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: to the judge, because those are the people that are 417 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: really making up the mind. You don't want to be 418 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: sitting there looking at your attacker, looking at the defendant, 419 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: looking at their attorney. Um. Obviously, the thing that we 420 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: try to prepare them for but really can't always be 421 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: prepared for is the cross examination, but um, the defendant's attorney, 422 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: and that can be really difficult for the victims, that part, 423 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: because they are really there to try to discredit their 424 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: testimony as much as possible. Typically, by the time they 425 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: gave their direct testimony of what had happened, it was 426 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: also emotional at that point. Um. And you know, again, 427 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: we tried to prepare them as much as possible for 428 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: that cross examination. UM, but I can't even begin to 429 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: imagine what it is like to be discredited like that 430 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: and um, you know, be made to feel like what 431 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: you're saying is dishonest in some way because it's it's 432 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: so difficult to just come forward from the get go 433 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: and even get to that point where you're sitting in 434 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: a courtroom. UM. And I think everyone is different. I 435 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: have heard from some victims that it's actually quite empowering. 436 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: To sit there and tell their story two people. UM, 437 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: it gives them that sense of self back, um. But 438 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: for other people it is quite a difficult experience to 439 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: go through. How often does it how long does it 440 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: usually take? I know it's probably based on the type 441 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: of case or whatever, But for a victim to come 442 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: and do their portion of questioning and cross examination, it 443 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: really depends on the case and how detailed it is. 444 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: I would estimate a half day to a day of testimony. 445 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: A lot of them do pleay out ahead of time 446 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: and out of the date. The forcible rape. Adult forcible 447 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: rape situations were usually a bit easier to convict. Um. 448 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: The date rape really does come down to a lot 449 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: of times, unfortunately, he said, she said, situation. And one 450 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: of the biggest problems I think in taking cases to 451 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: trial UM has really been the effective shows like C 452 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: S I and things like that, where they're showing all 453 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: of this like voodoo evidence going on, and we don't 454 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: have those things. There's not a computer that you can, 455 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 1: you know, submit a five or two and it tells 456 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: you that a shirt was purchased in New Hampshire or 457 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: something of that nature, and those things done exists. UM. 458 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: So when you do have the cases where your evidence 459 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: is really testimony. You do have some jurors that I 460 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 1: don't want to believe that that's really evidence. They want 461 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: that physical evidence UM to point to. So that's really 462 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: the difficulty with the convictions on you know what is 463 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: commonly known as the date rate type scenarios when it 464 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: comes down to a trial for example, though it really 465 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: depends a little bit more on what the jury feels 466 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: consent is and where that that moves on the on 467 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: the line. So literally it's for the prosecution or the 468 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: defense to try to define it for them and what 469 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: they believe consent is. Essentially so the sentencing process. Typically 470 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: sentencing is going to be set for a different day, 471 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: unless there is it's a crime where there's a mandatory 472 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: sentence that needs to be imposed. Sometimes the judge will 473 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: um impose the sentence immediately after the trial, but typically 474 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: it's set for a later date. UM. Victims do have 475 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: the opportunity to talk UM and are encouraged to a 476 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 1: lot of them find that healing preparis statement UM it's 477 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: called your victim impact statement typically is what it's called 478 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: in most jurisdictions, and it's your opportunity to tell the 479 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: judge how this has impacted your life, how this has 480 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: changed your life in any in all areas. UM. It's 481 00:35:55,239 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: also your opportunity to, you know, tell that perpetrator know 482 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: how you feel about them. UM. And UM. You know, 483 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: it depends on the jurisdiction and the crime. UM. Some 484 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: of them have mandatory sentences, UM, some very A lot 485 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: of times the prosecutor will talk to the victim about 486 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,399 Speaker 1: what sentence or range of sentence they feel comfortable with, 487 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: but ultimately the sentence comes down to the judge. UM. 488 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,720 Speaker 1: So the prosecutor can make a recommendation, the defense can, 489 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: They can even be in agreement, but the judge ultimately 490 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: can do what they feel as appropriate. Reading cases day 491 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: in and day out, it gives you just a totally 492 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: different perspective on society. UM. It's no longer this thing 493 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: you hear on the news that happens a way over there. 494 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: It's happening right in your community, and you actually know 495 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: all the gory details. UM. And So I found myself 496 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: affected by a lot of different cases, not just the 497 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: sex crimes cases, but was a part of you that 498 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: I think just does kind of shut down a bit 499 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: and change. Um. I think I'm a much harder person 500 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: since being a prosecutor. UM, nothing shocks me. UM. I 501 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: deal with education law now, I deal with a lot 502 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 1: of schools. UM. And when I'm training administrators, I actually 503 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: have liked to tell them about my background because I 504 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: tell them. When you call me and tell me that 505 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: something horrible happened in your school, don't expect a big 506 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: reaction from me, because I've seen in her way worse 507 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: probably UM, but I mean, yeah, you you you end 508 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: up kind of shutting off a part of yourself and 509 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: losing a part of yourself. And UM, you know, I 510 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: saw a lot of colleagues that UM, you know, would 511 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: drink heavily, UM developed drinking problems. UM. It can take 512 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: a mental toll on somebody doing that kind of profession 513 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: day in and day out. That brings us to the 514 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: end of our interviews, but we still have some more 515 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: for you listeners. After one more quick break for a 516 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:17,439 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, m HM, and we're back, Thank 517 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: you sponsor. Before we close out, we wanted to let 518 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: Justin tell you where to find them. So if people 519 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: want to talk to me. UM, I do a bunch 520 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: of different things. So UM, I teach multidisiplinary teams. Also 521 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,479 Speaker 1: people who are not in the system, I can help 522 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: explain and bright colors and employ letter words what happened. 523 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: But I played between the two. And if you want 524 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: to know more about the actual brain science, I have 525 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 1: people that can do that too. But really for a 526 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: good understanding, I trained that I trained regulation investigations in 527 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: domestic violent investigation UM, and then I consult so a 528 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: lot of the consulting looks like UM going through starting 529 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: a project here soon in Worthington, Minnesota, where they received 530 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 1: a federal brant to go through their report system, their training, 531 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 1: and that their police department's gonna and spend a lot 532 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:32,439 Speaker 1: of time and change out policies and do training. That's 533 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: really cool. UM. So I do that. I review UM 534 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: police reports and investigations. UM. If people need that a 535 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: lot of times I will be able to, depending on 536 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: the information they give me, will review their investigation quickly 537 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,399 Speaker 1: and give them a ten foot what I think. If 538 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: they want a written record or anything else like that 539 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 1: badly enough, I do need to change charge for some 540 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,320 Speaker 1: of my time. UM. But civil attorneys as well, sometimes 541 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: that they've paid for the report. The other stuff UH 542 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,280 Speaker 1: would come on a side on the other side, Um, 543 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: but I do that. I also ke note I am 544 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: also just about finished with a look of change within 545 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: the Modern U Special Victims Unit. Well, um, certainly my 546 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 1: email is It's Justin at justin boardman dot com. My um, 547 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:53,839 Speaker 1: my website is justin boardman dot com. So that's pretty easy. Um, 548 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: you can type in boardman. You can sometimes you can 549 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: search under trauma form investigation that might come up there. 550 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: Uh that's sort of me. That brings us to the 551 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: end of this our bonus episode. We hope that you 552 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,720 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. Yeah. We also want to thank both Justin 553 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: and Samantha for taking time to speak with us and 554 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: being a part of this really important conversation. Yes, yes, 555 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: and thank you for joining us again, Samantha for letting 556 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 1: me be here now we're stuck in a loop of 557 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: thank you oh no, and thank you to Andrew Howard, 558 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,399 Speaker 1: our producer. Thank you to the listeners for listening. Thank 559 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: you Stuff. I'm never told you he was a production 560 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio is How Stuff Works. For more 561 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: podcast from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 562 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.