1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts is a production of iHeartRadio previously on Paper Ghosts. 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: So they come to you and you give them the 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: ok to consume that DNA. I first called Joanne and 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: we have this discussion about this is our one shot. 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: You know, we may not get it again if we 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: agree to do this. She was in complete agreement and said, 7 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,159 Speaker 1: we've got to do what we've got to do. In 8 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: the process of our analysis of the physical evidence using 9 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: more modern DNA tests, the shoelaces were of tremendous interest 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: to us. A couple of local FBI agents came to 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: my house and took a DNA swab for me. They 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: apparently have found mail DNA that they can use. Obviously 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: they have something that they're processing. My name isem William Phelps. 14 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: I'm an investigative journalist, the author more than forty true 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: crime books. This is season three of Paper Ghosts in 16 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: Plain Sight. Over the course of my investigation into Tammy 17 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: Ziwiki's murder, I kept coming back to one word trust. 18 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 1: From the beginning. Everything in Tammy's case, the crime scene 19 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: on I eighty, the time of day, a highway full 20 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: of witnesses, just about everything pointed to one conclusion, Tammy 21 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: trusted her killer enough to willingly accept a ride. I 22 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: think she trusted somebody and took a ride or whatever, 23 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: and then it went off the rails from there. I 24 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: don't know if it would be a serial killer. It 25 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: could be just a random, one time event. You know, 26 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: the opportunity was there, they took her. I believe her 27 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: murderer posed as a good samaritan, pulled over under the 28 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: guy eyes of offering help, and he probably offered her 29 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: a ride. So many of the people interviewed for this 30 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: podcast agreed that on the surface, whoever abducted and murdered 31 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: Tammy did not ostensibly pose a threat, and despite what 32 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: early witness statements and the media seemed to imply, I'm 33 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: convinced this person was not a trucker. I believe that 34 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: she was dumped across the state to draw interest away 35 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: from where she was picked up, and I believe that 36 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: that's because that area has a connection to her killer. 37 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: And I really believe that the case was getting national news, 38 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: it was getting a lot of attention, and I think 39 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: that the body was left so that we would find it. 40 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: It could have been dumped in a far more remote, 41 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: discreete area. If you're a trucker, you know where people 42 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: are not going to be. You know there are places 43 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: that are deserted. And while it wasn't left in the 44 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: middle of the road, it was left in a place 45 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: where it was going to be found. And I think 46 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: that that was on purpose, so that we would look 47 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: in Missouri and stop looking in Illinois. Tammy's friends Stacy 48 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: Pappus states perfectly what I have come to believe over 49 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: the past year that Tammy's killer likely acted on an 50 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: opportunity and abducted her at random, but had certainly thought 51 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: things out meticulously afterwards. Like Stacy, I believe his movements 52 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: after Tammy's death were calculated and meant to distract, and 53 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: he knew a thing or two about where to dump 54 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: a body. Here's Tammy's best friend, Jen Nelson. I think 55 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: it's hard to imagine a monster who would abduct a 56 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: young woman, kill them and only do that once in 57 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: their life. No, I think it's a monster who was 58 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: out there and was going to hurt somebody else. There 59 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: are so many different ways that life in nineteen ninety 60 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: two were different than today that it sometimes makes it 61 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: hard for listeners to imagine how did this happen. Why 62 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: did this happen? You know, well, why didn't she do 63 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: this or that? And you have to really put yourself 64 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: back into nineteen ninety two to have a better grasp of, 65 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: you know, what she was thinking, what she was feeling, 66 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: what the investigators were doing to try to investigate this case. 67 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: Brian town is a special prosecutor for the State of Illinois. 68 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: Prior to that, he was the state's attorney for LaSalle 69 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: County from two thousand and six two sixteen and the 70 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: assistant state's attorney in nineteen ninety two when Tammy went missing. 71 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I say this all the time that you 72 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: can't look at a nineteen ninety two case through a 73 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: contemporary lens or an emotional feeling of what's going on today. 74 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: But subconsciously you do unless you're conscious of the fact 75 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: that you shouldn't exactly right. It's all about, you know, 76 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: the era. And I certainly wouldn't call this a cold case, 77 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: but in virtually every cold case in the United States 78 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: of America, that's the first and sometimes most difficult hurdle 79 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: for an investigation is to say, Okay, I've got to 80 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: get back to nineteen fifty six or nineteen seventy three 81 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: or whatever year we're talking about. And I've got to 82 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: think like they thought then and try to have that perspective. 83 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: Otherwise it's going to be a difficult investigation. If she 84 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: felt any discomfort from a truck driver, she could easily 85 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: ran into those corn fields. I mean, you run into 86 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: one of those corn fields right there, you're gone. You're hiding. Yeah. 87 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: Being a Midwest guy, I can tell you that in August, 88 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: the corn is pretty high, and absolutely she could have 89 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: very easily escaped any kind of attacker. And I eighty 90 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: in that particular area of that corridor is wide open. 91 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: There might be some fences, but certainly I think she 92 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: would would have been able to escape if she had 93 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: felt threatened or if someone was trying to abduct her. 94 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: It's a thought that haunts me. Tammy was abducted from 95 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: a busy highway in Illinois in broad daylight on a 96 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: hot afternoon in August nineteen ninety two. A flood of 97 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: tips led law enforcement to search for a trucker a 98 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: connection with her disappearance. It was even a composite of 99 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: an eighteen wheeler with two stripes released. Tammy's body was 100 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: found nine days later in Missouri, just fifteen feet off 101 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: the shoulder of an exit ramp frequented by truckers, which 102 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 1: begs the question did her are capitalized on the frenzied 103 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: search for a trucker. Here's former IP Lieutenant Jeff Paedia. 104 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: One of the things that led to the overall truck 105 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: driver theme was the fact that the betting that she 106 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: was wrapped in would have fit the betting in the 107 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: back of a sleeper birth. That doesn't mean it was 108 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: from a sleeper birth, and that doesn't mean that that 109 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: betting wasn't just bought at a Walmart or any other 110 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: store along the way. And so, you know, that's I think, 111 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: sort of a good lesson about jumping to conclusions. You know, 112 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: you have, all right, it fits the betting that she's 113 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: wrapped in fits a sleeper birth. That doesn't mean that 114 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: it was a truck And then it, particularly as a supervisor, 115 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: you start saying something like that, or you even voice that, oh, 116 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: it must have been a truck driver. Every one of 117 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: your detectives then is focused on truck drivers. And that's 118 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: the last thing we wanted, you know, because we did 119 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: have other information out there. And then you know, you 120 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: want to keep all things open. I've said it all along. 121 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: There's been an element of tunnel vision that, in my view, 122 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: hindered progress in the investigation, at least in the early days. 123 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: And as the saying goes, if you don't change the 124 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: way you look at things, the things you look at 125 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: will not change. So if I shift my focus from 126 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: truck driver to someone Tammy could have trusted, a new 127 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: pool of potential suspects opens up. We always struggled with 128 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: the idea of, you know, the couple things somebody in 129 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: a position of authority, or somebody right at her age 130 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: that she may have known. Like, we had the idea 131 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: that we thought that there was a possibility that the 132 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: actual offender was another Grinnell College male student, because she 133 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: would have to have recognized, you know, like, oh, I 134 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: recognize you from campus, aren't you? You know? Or you 135 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: have somebody with a badge in a uniform that they're like, 136 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: come on, i'll hop in, I'll give you a ride, 137 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: and then she would feel comfortable with that. Law enforcement 138 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: followed that threat, but there was no evidence to support 139 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: a fellow Grinnell's students involvement, or any student for that matter. 140 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,479 Speaker 1: So then if you apply the logic that Tammy instinctively 141 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: trusted a stranger, you could draw the conclusion that this 142 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: person was someone in a position of authority. If you 143 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: recall from an earlier episode, Tammy's car was found locked 144 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: on the shoulder of the interstate. There was no sign 145 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: of a struggle in or around the vehicle. Her purse, 146 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: along with her I D were not in the car, 147 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: So it seems that when her abductor arrived to offer help, 148 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: Tammy felt at ease, took her bag and left willingly 149 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: with that person. It's a point I brought up with 150 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: Jeff Hanford, a former ISP officer who worked on Tammy's case. 151 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: You know, I mean, in my talks that I gave 152 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: after this, I would tell them I wouldn't accept any 153 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: help from anybody who is not a uniform policeman. I said, 154 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: because I know how you know what they're going to 155 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: do for you. They're going to call you a tow 156 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: truck that's on a list that's been vetted. You said, 157 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: uniform policeman. Why only uniform policemen. People are impersonating policeman, 158 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: aren't going to be in a marked car with a uniform, 159 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: and they're just not. It's too much, it's too dangerous. 160 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's too easy to get caught. Nowadays, they'll 161 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: see county deputies out there quite a bit too. I've 162 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: noticed that, so you know, I've been a uniform police 163 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: officer in a mark squad car. That's what you want, 164 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: that's the ultimate, because you'll be out of there in 165 00:10:54,679 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 1: twenty minutes. Law enforcement received countless tips from motorists about 166 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: the day Tammy went missing, and looking at an ISP 167 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: handwritten witness tipsheet and time sequence report, I didn't see 168 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: any indication of a marked or unmarked police vehicle stopping 169 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: to help. Then again, if people driving on the interstate 170 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: saw a police vehicle park next to a stalled car, 171 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: I think there would be relief, no cause for alarm, 172 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: and no reason to report it. In my view, it's 173 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: safe to assume there was something about the person who 174 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: pulled over that put Tammy at ease, the collar of 175 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: a clergyman, perhaps maybe an elderly man, or someone with 176 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: a badge. Tammy was tough. Tammy grew up with three brothers. 177 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: Tammy wasn't naive. But if a guy shows up in 178 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: a collar, or a guy shows up with a badge, 179 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: she's going with him. Sure, I agree with you, And 180 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: that kind of dovetails in perfectly with the fact that 181 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: Tammy's family firmly believes that she never would have gotten 182 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: into a semi truck with a truck driver that you know, 183 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: she didn't know and had no connection to nineteen ninety two. 184 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: It was a different era, as a different time. You know, 185 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: a young lady, college bound or somewhat college educated or 186 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: getting her education would have trusted police and would have, 187 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: when stranded on the side of a busy road, happily 188 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: gotten into a squad car with someone in a position 189 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: of authority. The possibility that a man in uniform was 190 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: responsible for Tammy's a Wiki's abduction and murder is a 191 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: theory I've been pursuing since I learned from someone deeply 192 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: connected to the case that, as of early twenty twenty two, 193 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: the prime suspect law enforcement has been zeroing in on 194 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: is a former police officer Waitnia from the slum. In 195 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: the days and weeks after I learned that a former 196 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: police officer was now the prime suspect and Tammy's a 197 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: Wiki's abduction and murder, the puzzle pieces in this case 198 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: began to fall into place. My source, who was asked 199 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: to remain anonymous, told me this officer has been on 200 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: law enforcement's radar since the earliest days of the investigation, 201 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: and he remains at the center of the latest inquiries today. 202 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: I worked for months to back up this information and 203 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: aid carefully whether to include it in the podcast. In 204 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: the end, I was told that including this detail would 205 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: not hinder the act of investigation. An accusation against a 206 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: member of law enforcement isn't an easy one to make 207 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: or prove. Investigators didn't want to tip off a potential 208 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: suspect too early, which, for reasons I now understand, is 209 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: why for many decades it was imperative that any word 210 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: about the suspect stay out of the press. And in 211 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: thinking about this suspect, it makes a little more sense 212 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: now why it felt as if someone was mucking around 213 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: with the case in the beginning of the investigation. It 214 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: could also be the reason why the IP dissolved the 215 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: task force after just six months. Was it because they 216 00:14:54,280 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: thought one of their own could be responsible. What's even 217 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: more alarming is what I heard in early twenty twenty three, 218 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: I met with another law enforcement source who confirmed the 219 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: cops suspect theory. That source told me this suspect had 220 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: taken two previously unplanned days off from work after Tammy 221 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: was abducted, which could account for a lot of unanswered questions, 222 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: most importantly why her body was found five hundred miles away. 223 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: It's a point I brought up with Jeff Padilla. There's 224 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: so much land out there to dump a body that 225 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: no one would ever find. And if I'm familiar with it, 226 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: the land, why put her on the side of the 227 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: road exactly exactly? And typically we know, you know from 228 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: my experience, a body dump is meant to create time 229 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: and distance between the offender and the victim. You know now, 230 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: now that lends credence to some of those other theories. 231 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: You know, why would somebody want to create time and 232 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: distance between them and Tammy? Many serial killers I have 233 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: interviewed have told me that the more distance they put 234 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: between themselves and their victims, the better the chances are 235 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: of never being connected to that victim. The fact that 236 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: Tammy was missing for nine days and then found alongside 237 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: a busy exit ramp in a neighboring state tells me 238 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: her killer was well aware of this concept. If I'm 239 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: a cop in Illinois. The last thing I'd want is 240 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: for one of my colleagues to find her body another state, 241 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: another jurisdiction. So here's a theory, right, So she's abducted, 242 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: the call goes out and everyone's looking for an eighteen 243 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: wheel or truck driver, right right. Nine days pass, and 244 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: she's dumped by a truck stop. Yep, because everybody thought 245 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: it was you know, everybody believed it was a truck driver. 246 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: So why not make it look like it was a 247 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: truck driver, right right, and going buy the betting that 248 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: fits the size of a truck birth. An important point 249 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: to factor into the trucker theory is how easy it 250 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: would have been for a truck driver to dump Tammy's 251 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: body anywhere else but where she was found. Consider the 252 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: typical over the road trucker who spends days traversing the country. 253 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: If he's holding onto the body for nine days, he 254 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: might as well have driven to Washington State and dumped 255 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: her there. But to travel five hundred miles and then 256 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: dump her out in the open, it defies logic, even 257 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: for a psychopath. If I'm the offender and I'm the 258 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: truck driver, and for whatever reason, she gets in the 259 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: truck with me. I've got her, I'm going to take 260 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: care of business. And then when she dies straight down 261 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: I eighty, I just pull over, wait for nobody's coming by, 262 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: pull her body out, and dump her in the ditch. 263 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: My second source told me that a search warrant was 264 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: conducted on the police officer's home in nineteen ninety three, 265 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: and during that search, many items of interest were found, 266 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: including an old mattress in his basement and other items 267 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: that made it quote appear as though someone was being restrained. 268 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: The mattress, I'm told was dirty and had been recently 269 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: slept on, and had stains that appeared to resemble blood. 270 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: Could the mattress be the piece of evidence investigators were 271 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: able to recently extract DNA from test and build a 272 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: profile off of Many of those involved in the investigation 273 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: have agreed on the theory that Tammy was restrained and 274 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: held hostage for the period of time she was missing. 275 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: As I was speaking to Jeff Padilla about the case 276 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: in general, I slipped in a question about this. Part 277 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: of our concern was that, you know, if you're going 278 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: to restrain someone, you're going to have some ligature marks somewhere, 279 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: and we had a hard time with that. We didn't 280 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: there was no clear distinct ligature marks, which led them 281 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: to you know, particularly in the in the beginning, some 282 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: people believing that she was immediately killed. A victim who 283 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,719 Speaker 1: has been restrained for days may not always end up 284 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: with ligature marks on their wrists or ankles. It all 285 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: depends on how the victim is being restrained. This all 286 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: led to that other issue. Found that Tammy's autopsy she 287 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: still had the undigested food that she had eaten right 288 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: before she broke down from whatever that was, the heartsease 289 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: or whatever. So you know that that all lent to 290 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 1: the fact, you know that she may have been killed 291 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: right away, and then maybe she was just kept because 292 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, her body is kept for whatever reason. But 293 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: that doesn't make like from from a bad guy's perspective, 294 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense because you know, going back to 295 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: the whole body dump thing, you want to get rid 296 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: of that as quickly as it would be very strange 297 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: to hang on to somebody like that unless you have, 298 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: you know, you had somebody like you know that that 299 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: had kept her alive somewhere. Whether Tammy was kept alive 300 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: or killed right away is an important factor, especially for 301 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: those desperate to know what happened to her, But it's 302 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: irrelevant to the science behind catching her killer. That comes 303 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: down to the DNA testing, completing a profile, and matching 304 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: it to the suspect. My source said investigators are currently 305 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: missing one piece, but that once they have it and 306 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: arrest MORMP will be signed, sealed, and served. I am 307 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: fairly certain the field work on all of this has 308 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: been completed and it's just a matter of time to 309 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: confirm what they already know. I recently shared some of 310 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: what I had learned with Jeff Padia, who oversaw Tammy's 311 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: case for many years. I'll just I will only say this, 312 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: it's not the first I've heard of that. I have 313 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: no knowledge that he is the current focus of the investigation. 314 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: I am familiar with that line of inquiry. I guess 315 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: we could call it. Among all the theories and leads 316 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: over the past thirty years, this one seems the most credible, 317 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 1: and according to my sources, current law enforcement believes this 318 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: suspect is Tammy's killer. The news seemed to catch Jeff 319 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: Padia off guard. I would be interested as to who 320 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: would provide you that information With knowledge of the current investigation, 321 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: but I also don't want to know. So yeah, I mean, 322 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: I you know, I'd love to tell you, but I can't. 323 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 1: I just can't. And no I did it. It It would 324 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 1: be somebody with the same access to my friends and 325 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: colleagues and folks that I worked with, so and I 326 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: was told all their weight and to do now is 327 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: just matched the DNA to this person. That's very interesting. 328 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: That's very interesting that you say that. I've reached out 329 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: to those leading the current investigation a number of times, 330 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: but they've declined to participate. A spokesperson for the FBI 331 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: said they were unable to provide any comments outside of 332 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: what has already been released, but they appreciate the podcast's 333 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: efforts in helping to bring attention to the case. After 334 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: working on this case for as long as I have, 335 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: I'll say this, the best lead, the most practical suspect 336 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: is the former police officer. I'm hold law enforcement is 337 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: currently pursuing from all the intel I have been given 338 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: and a few off the record conversations, and arrest could 339 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: be imminent, which in the real world of investigations could 340 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: mean months or even years. I am not holding my breath, 341 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: and neither should Tammy's friends and family. The last thing 342 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: I want to do is give hope where there is none. 343 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: I am simply reporting the information I have developed from 344 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: sources with impeccable credibility, and what I have been told 345 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: by those who have the access and knowledge to make 346 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: such claims. If this is all true, the sadder reality 347 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: is that Tammy made the most responsible decision in her situation. 348 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: She went with someone reliable, someone she should have been 349 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: able to trust, and that fact alone makes this story 350 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: all the more difficult to tell, not do once it 351 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: with Today, I'm just saying it in there. I just 352 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: so can't do much else with it, and there are 353 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: I know there's going to be a couple of things, 354 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: a couple of articles going out about it, but I'm 355 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: just hanging in. I called Joanne Ziwiki last August on 356 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: the thirtieth anniversary of her daughter's abduction. I thought about 357 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: how hard this all must be, how draining it can get. 358 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: I know what it's like from my own nephews and 359 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: niece who lost their mother to murder in nineteen ninety six. 360 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: As a family member, you think about this stuff often, 361 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: but on certain days of the year, it's impossible to 362 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: think of anything else. It's hard because it brings it 363 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: up against you know, everything again and at the same time, 364 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: you know you never know what might come out of that. 365 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: There's been some intings that have insolved after so many 366 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: years because of it's being left in the spotlight. So 367 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: you know, I looked forward for either way. But some 368 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: days are good, some days aren't so good. If hope 369 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: is part of this, then I can at least offer 370 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: a slight bright spot for Joanne. Twenty six years after 371 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: my sister in law's murder, I have been told investigators 372 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: now have a few suspects they know committed the crime. 373 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: So despite the times when it seemed law enforcement had 374 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: someone only to then be let down or they had 375 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: given up, there is sometimes light at the end or 376 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: justice however you look cat it. Joanne told me that 377 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: some people in her life encourage her to forget about 378 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: all of this, to move on, to go about her 379 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: days without stepping back in time. You have to go 380 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: through it to know what it's like, especially when you 381 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: have the other kids, because you see what the other 382 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: kids have done them, what they're going through and everything. 383 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: Joanne went on to tell me how hard it has 384 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: been for her youngest son, Darren, who shared the first 385 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: part of the road trip with Tammy and was the 386 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: last one from the family to be with her. You know, 387 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: you have to kind of just go with it and 388 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: just take things a best you can from day to day. Now, 389 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: you know, we all go through subsic and you know, 390 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: as long as with each other and help each other, 391 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: and you know, it works out well. I don't know. 392 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: I don't know right now, and anything I know now 393 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: it supposedly the DNA is being destined in California by 394 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: one of the best lamps out there. They haven't heard 395 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: any say yeah, so anything comes up, you know, I'll 396 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: let you know. The impact Tammy's a Wiki had on 397 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: those in her life is everlasting. It's something that struck 398 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: me in this case, how memories of the victim were 399 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: so permanent. It's rare, actually not something I hear all 400 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: the time. Tammy's best friend Jen Nelson summed it up perfectly. 401 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: Losing your best friend in such a horrible way at 402 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: such a young age has an effect on your life. 403 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: But for me, I was surrounded by people who were 404 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: taking action and helping out and making sure that there 405 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: were positive things that came from this and that made 406 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: all the difference, and it continues to make all the 407 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: difference from the podcast to the Facebook group of people 408 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: connecting and talking about what's going on with her. There 409 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: are a lot of good people out there, and there 410 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: are a lot of people out there who are trying 411 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: to keep other people safe and be able to solve 412 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: not only this crime, but others that are unsolved, and 413 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: to try and keep people from falling victim again. So 414 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: I just really appreciate everyone else who helps tell the 415 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: story too. During my conversation with Joanne, I mentioned that 416 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: we have to go on live life as full as 417 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 1: we can motor through despite how difficult it can sometimes be. 418 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: That's it, And I mean, I've got three sons, I've 419 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: got seven grandkids, and I can't let this be in 420 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: the middle of all of that. You know, they don't 421 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: live near me, but I do stay in touch with them, 422 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: worry about them down they're in college. I got three 423 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: of them one second year of college and two of 424 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: them in first year of college. Scary there. It is 425 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: that ripple effect from Tammy's abduction and murder trickling out 426 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: into the world, reaching the next generation of the ZOWICKI family, Well, 427 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: what do you hope from me? If you can bring 428 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: any attention to it, bring anything out that hasn't been 429 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: out there before, I'd be grateful. I mean, if people say, 430 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: why do you think about all that the years don't 431 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: make any difference, You'd just like to know. The pain 432 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: is the pain. Yeah. At the end of the day, 433 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: Tammy's case will be solved through the DNA evidence gathered 434 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: from the Missouri crime scene and other locations, tested and 435 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: run down by the many talented investigators working this case. 436 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: My goal always and telling these stories is to give 437 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: victims and their loved ones a voice and to try 438 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: to best I can get family some answers which they 439 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: so much deserve. I feel that this stage I know 440 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: Tammy and all that I have heard and learned, I 441 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: believe she would have gone on to be a remarkable success. 442 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: She was, by all accounts, an incredible human being, which 443 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: is why I wanted to know. For many of those 444 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: I spoke with who they thought Tammy would be today, 445 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that Tammy would be getting ready to 446 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: get off work and put her hair up in a 447 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: ponytail and go run and play some some fun co 448 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: ed soccer wherever she was living, so I think she 449 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: would have had, you know, multiple children. I think she 450 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: would have had a big family like she came from. 451 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: And I see her being a you know, a coach 452 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: for soccer or whether it's kids or college. I kind 453 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: of feel like she might have become a photojournalist. I 454 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: could see her you know, in the Ukraine, documenting what's 455 00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: going on and you know, just sharing her her talents 456 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: in that way. I think that she had a lot 457 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: of talent and a lot to offer this world. And 458 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: it's a it's a great loss to the world when 459 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: when anybody has taken but I think that she had 460 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: a lot to give. And one last time, here's Tammy's mother, 461 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: Joanne's a WICKI just to you know the fact that 462 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: why things like this has to happen, And I think 463 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: about the person that did it to her would kind 464 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: of like that person that happen. Yeah, why why do 465 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: you take somebody's life that she had a lot to give. 466 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: She was an all round person. I'd like to take 467 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: this opportunity to thank you the listeners all of your 468 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: support over the years, as well as to the sources 469 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: who participated in this podcast and my deepest gratitude to 470 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: Tammy's friends and most importantly, the Zwicki family who trusted 471 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: me with Tammy's story. If you are enjoying Paper Ghosts, 472 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: please listen to my other iHeart podcasts, Crossing the Line 473 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: with Them William Phelps and White Eagle, where I use 474 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:28,959 Speaker 1: the same storytelling elements you've heard in Paper Ghosts. Paper 475 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: Ghosts is written and executive produced by me Em, William 476 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: Phelps and iHeart Executive producer Christina Everett. Additional writing by 477 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: our supervising producer Julia Weaver. Our associate producer is Darby Masters, 478 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: Audio editing and mixing by Christian Bowman and Abu Zafar. 479 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: Our series theme number four four two is written and 480 00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney. For more podcasts 481 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 482 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.