Speaker 1: There are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd,
Speaker 1: and this is there are no Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: So when I first started getting really into the Internet,
Speaker 1: I always assumed that I was an outlier. I never
Speaker 1: really saw imagery of women, let alone black women taking
Speaker 1: up a lot of space online and all the movies
Speaker 1: and media. I saw that people who were really into
Speaker 1: the Internet in those days were all men, and a
Speaker 1: specific kind of man at that, you know, nerdy and
Speaker 1: almost always white. So the story I let myself believe
Speaker 1: was that women and people of color and queer folks,
Speaker 1: all of us, we were all fighting to break into
Speaker 1: this industry that was pretty much a boys club. It
Speaker 1: wasn't until much later that I realized that story I've
Speaker 1: been telling myself it was wrong. We'd always been there.
Speaker 1: On the earliest days of computing and the Internet and technology,
Speaker 1: marginalized folks were at the forefront doing work of making
Speaker 1: it better. Now this realization allowed for a complete shift
Speaker 1: in my thinking technology and the Internet. It's our rightful domain.
Speaker 1: And even if our stories are not always told or appreciated,
Speaker 1: or worse, if they're intentionally left out of the narrative.
Speaker 1: We're still here taking up space, and we have been
Speaker 1: from the very beginning. Women like Denise Duncan are exactly
Speaker 1: who I'm talking about. Denise has been working in tech
Speaker 1: since the earliest days of the Internet, and today she's
Speaker 1: still there working to make sure the Internet is equitable
Speaker 1: and inclusive. Denise has had a front row seat to
Speaker 1: how the Internet has changed over the years, and voices
Speaker 1: like hers can help us understand where it's going next. So,
Speaker 1: you know, as a black woman in tech, what have
Speaker 1: your experience has been like? Like, first of all, like
Speaker 1: like what brought you to this work in general? Like
Speaker 1: how did you get here? I started working in tech
Speaker 1: in ninety six, started building websites kind of like as
Speaker 1: soon as you could make a living building websites. I
Speaker 1: got a I got an internship with a with an
Speaker 1: organization called x org, which was a consortium that ran
Speaker 1: a UI for Lennox called x Windows, and um it
Speaker 1: was like an incredible place, Like the people there were
Speaker 1: so nerdy and like a bunch of the people who
Speaker 1: worked there like went on to work at W three
Speaker 1: C you know, like like and they Okay, So this
Speaker 1: was nineties six, at that time, they were experimenting with
Speaker 1: cloud computing. Like they I saw an experiment of somebody
Speaker 1: running Windows, running Windows and Word on one machine and
Speaker 1: using it on another one in right, like they already
Speaker 1: like made that leap at that time, right, which is incredible.
Speaker 1: And I studied physics when I was in school, and um,
Speaker 1: like I said, I got involved like at the very
Speaker 1: very beginning of the Internet. So at my like works
Speaker 1: the job, I spent a lot of time, um browsing
Speaker 1: the web, you know, like and it was Netscape one
Speaker 1: you know. Um, we actually used something called links I think,
Speaker 1: which was like a text based browser and like let
Speaker 1: me just go like I'll beeek out a little bit more.
Speaker 1: We I actually like the whole four way foray into
Speaker 1: um kind of like the Internet. In the web was
Speaker 1: using Gopher and um Archie, which were like precursors to
Speaker 1: the Web. Like Archie would allow you to search a
Speaker 1: bunch of different archives and stuff for files and everything,
Speaker 1: and Gopher was like almost like the Web, but it
Speaker 1: was very highly structured, so you had to like go
Speaker 1: through all these menus and stuff. Right. So anyway, like
Speaker 1: at my job, so I used like Archie Gopher for school,
Speaker 1: and stuff. And at my job, I started playing around
Speaker 1: with with Netscape because my boss was like she discovered
Speaker 1: the Internet and the web because she was a UM
Speaker 1: she would go coupon shopping right and like even at
Speaker 1: that time, like she was finding deals and deals. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I started playing around with it, and I just realized,
Speaker 1: like you know, it was very easy to actually figure
Speaker 1: out how it all worked, Like building a web page
Speaker 1: just took like looking at the source and the browser
Speaker 1: and working it out from there. So you know, I
Speaker 1: was kind of like at this place where I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I studied physics. I'm pretty sure I don't want to
Speaker 1: become a research scientist. Um, what am I going to
Speaker 1: do with this? So I got that internship at x
Speaker 1: org and like, um that the rest is history to
Speaker 1: some extent. So you you know, you talked a little
Speaker 1: bit about sort of you know, seeing all this wild
Speaker 1: stuff like the cloud, the early cloud computing and all that,
Speaker 1: and he talked about how it was sort of all
Speaker 1: this geeky, nerdy stuff. Did you feel like I have
Speaker 1: found my people when you were doing this early internet work,
Speaker 1: where you like I have found my people or did
Speaker 1: you feel like this is what I want to be doing,
Speaker 1: but showing up here as myself in this space feels fraught,
Speaker 1: Like like, what what were the feelings like being at
Speaker 1: the forefront of the Internet in this way? Oh wow,
Speaker 1: that's such an interesting question, and I've never really thought
Speaker 1: about that. I think in a lot of ways, I
Speaker 1: did feel like these are my people because I think
Speaker 1: in those early days, like, let me say this, I
Speaker 1: think the Internet changed completely around two thousand seven two eight,
Speaker 1: when the when the iPhone came around, right, I think
Speaker 1: before that it was a really different universe where it
Speaker 1: was kind of populated by geeks and nerds who just
Speaker 1: vibed on being geeks and nerds together, right, and like
Speaker 1: it didn't matter, like um, like it was just like
Speaker 1: we're cool because like you know, uh, yeah, we're cool
Speaker 1: because like we're going on all dot whatever and checking
Speaker 1: out you know, Melvin songs or D and D tips
Speaker 1: together or whatever. Right, So, like there was and there
Speaker 1: was all of this experimentation, like there were so many
Speaker 1: sites that were just like nonsense or like weird art
Speaker 1: projects and stuff like that. And so I did feel
Speaker 1: like I found my people because like I was, I'm
Speaker 1: all about that, like just like creating for creating sake,
Speaker 1: and you know there's like such a short feedback loop,
Speaker 1: especially at the web with the Web at that time,
Speaker 1: like building a web page, like you just saw stuff instantly, right,
Speaker 1: So it was really good, like creative medium. I think,
Speaker 1: Like I'll tell you about my first paying job that
Speaker 1: I got. It was a place called the Internet Company
Speaker 1: that literally owned the domain internet dot com. Um we
Speaker 1: used to get um okay, so we had like oup
Speaker 1: at internet dot com. Right. Every once in a while
Speaker 1: we get like an awesome one like hey Internet, where's
Speaker 1: the poor neat? Oh my god. And the guys that
Speaker 1: I worked with, they're like so I think like two
Speaker 1: or three of the guys who founded the Internet Company
Speaker 1: were in like the Boston Phoenix, like their free paper.
Speaker 1: They're like the who's who the Internet at that time. Um,
Speaker 1: so they like understood what was coming and they owned
Speaker 1: all they Like one of the guys in me off
Speaker 1: my office owned the domain god dot com. Right. So
Speaker 1: another funny story, like somebody wrote him as like dear
Speaker 1: God and the guitarist from my band and he wrote
Speaker 1: back and he was like, sorry, I play bass. I
Speaker 1: love that anyone does. Sort of you sort of get
Speaker 1: this sense that these were folks who, like you said,
Speaker 1: they knew what was coming, and they were really putting
Speaker 1: down infrastructure, camping out in domain names that they knew
Speaker 1: were going to be big um. And so you really
Speaker 1: had a front seat to a lot of that early
Speaker 1: architecture of what we know as the Internet. Because she
Speaker 1: had such a foundational role of building out the earliest
Speaker 1: architecture of what the Internet would eventually become, Denise feels
Speaker 1: a real sense of responsibility to work to make it better,
Speaker 1: which show word our Project Liberty, an initiative of Unfinished
Speaker 1: Labs that tries to transform how the Internet works and
Speaker 1: who benefits from the digital economy by creating new civic
Speaker 1: architecture for our digital world. At Project Liberty, Denise uses blockchain,
Speaker 1: a digital ledger of transactions that allow for digital information
Speaker 1: to be recorded and distributed to build civic technology to
Speaker 1: imagine the next generation of the Web, one that serves people,
Speaker 1: not platforms. That's actually why, like what attracted me to
Speaker 1: the project, the Project Liberty is because like I was there,
Speaker 1: and you know, in all honesty, like I feel some
Speaker 1: responsibility for where we've ended up, right um, where the
Speaker 1: web has ended up, and like I'm not I know,
Speaker 1: I'm not responsible, but here's why. Right, Like at the beginning,
Speaker 1: we were all like, Okay, this is cool, but like
Speaker 1: how are we going to make money? Like how do
Speaker 1: we keep these awesome jobs? Right? Um? And like eventually
Speaker 1: and and you know when you were talking about finding
Speaker 1: your people, like we would have um barbecues. We go
Speaker 1: to this group pub every Friday, right the Internet company,
Speaker 1: and hang out and drank a whole lot and talk
Speaker 1: and talk and talk and and like so we learned
Speaker 1: a lot about each other's like philosophies. Right, So a
Speaker 1: lot of people there the Internet was about like freedom,
Speaker 1: Like the web was about the ability for people to broadcast.
Speaker 1: It was all about like individuals being able to speak
Speaker 1: for themselves, right, Like all of us believe that that's
Speaker 1: why we were there, in order to enable people to
Speaker 1: have a voice. But what happened was at some point,
Speaker 1: you know, Google started, ad tech started, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, like, oh, we are making money, right, we
Speaker 1: are able to support this. We have to sell out
Speaker 1: a little bit in order to do it right, but
Speaker 1: we can do it right. And so like at that point,
Speaker 1: I became like super ambivalent about working in the tech
Speaker 1: industry because that felt like a real betrayal of like that,
Speaker 1: like it's about letting people speak, right it, you know,
Speaker 1: it wasn't about little people speak. It was about surveilling
Speaker 1: people at that point. Right. So, when um, I talked
Speaker 1: to Braxton about Project Liberty, he and I go back
Speaker 1: a little while, Like, um, he was saying, like, I know,
Speaker 1: you're interested in doing something a little different, like maybe
Speaker 1: moving on from tech, moving into you know, something a
Speaker 1: little bit more mission driven, like let me tell you
Speaker 1: about this. And it was a perfect marriage, right of
Speaker 1: the knowledge and experience I have from um, you know,
Speaker 1: working in tech for so long, and the desire I
Speaker 1: had to to move into a space where I was
Speaker 1: doing things for people, because I think the other part
Speaker 1: of my ambivalence was, like, you know, I realized, like
Speaker 1: the tech industry is a great way to make a
Speaker 1: living and one of the only good ways to make
Speaker 1: a living in this country right now, right, And so
Speaker 1: why is that right? And and why is Facebook like
Speaker 1: a technology company requiring people to move to San Francisco
Speaker 1: to work for them, right like you know, So anyway,
Speaker 1: so I really saw it as an opportunity to help
Speaker 1: do a little reset back to the original ideas of
Speaker 1: what the web was founded on. I mean, as far
Speaker 1: as i'm concer let's take a quick right, how a back.
Speaker 1: I know that Project Liberty is all about sort of
Speaker 1: using tech to make sure the web is you know,
Speaker 1: open and equitable and really centered on people. Can you
Speaker 1: talk us through a little bit about how you how
Speaker 1: you are speaking to accomplish that, how you do that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So it's been a journey for us, right, because what
Speaker 1: we're trying to do is not with the tech industry
Speaker 1: is motivated by us naturally, Right, We're trying to build
Speaker 1: this public infrastructure to help take social networks, the social graph,
Speaker 1: right is the technical term for it. Take the social
Speaker 1: graph and make it a you know, a universally owned
Speaker 1: property so that every individual can decide what they want
Speaker 1: to do with the information that you know exists in
Speaker 1: that social breath. And it also means that you know,
Speaker 1: these companies that are dominating the space now don't get
Speaker 1: to hold onto your data and don't get to hold
Speaker 1: onto your relationships like you own those connections. Right because
Speaker 1: right now, if you leave Facebook, you leave you're leaving
Speaker 1: like I leave Facebook and leaving like five connections that
Speaker 1: I've built up over the years and why is that right?
Speaker 1: So the idea behind Project Liberty is what we have
Speaker 1: to do is make the social graph of public good
Speaker 1: and then see what that unleashes as far as innovation creativity,
Speaker 1: because you know, one of the things that we're doing
Speaker 1: is building this this protocol on top of the blockchain, okay,
Speaker 1: and and and we're doing that because that allows us
Speaker 1: to manage identity and manage state in a way that
Speaker 1: we can't in other places. And it also gives us
Speaker 1: an avenue to building an ecosystem where we can can
Speaker 1: really build in incentives for people to come aboard. And
Speaker 1: in that way, it's really different than the model that
Speaker 1: exist in Silicon Valley, right, which is you know, it's
Speaker 1: about who you know, it's about those venture capitalists. With
Speaker 1: the blockchain, what we have the opportunity for, like you
Speaker 1: can invest in the project that you're interested in. We're
Speaker 1: going to take advantage of that, right and and figure
Speaker 1: out some ways to, like I said, create those incentives
Speaker 1: to bring different types of people um into this uh
Speaker 1: in a way that we can't now um with the
Speaker 1: with the current system. Yeah, I mean when people hear
Speaker 1: things like blockchain, I feel like automatically what you condropt
Speaker 1: is like Bro was talking about crypto, and I do
Speaker 1: wish that we could broaden the conversation to folks who
Speaker 1: are doing things like yourself to bring more people in
Speaker 1: to try to build more equitable systems and you know,
Speaker 1: kind of build that into it. I wish I wish
Speaker 1: that it was something that had a it was didn't
Speaker 1: automatically conjurupt the bros talking crypto, that it conjured up
Speaker 1: what you're talking about, you know, but that I think
Speaker 1: like that's the opportunity that we have right now, right
Speaker 1: because what we have, what we have to do with
Speaker 1: this project is create this diverse coalition of people who
Speaker 1: were going to support it. And like I don't I
Speaker 1: don't just mean like people with color or women or
Speaker 1: l l G B t Q. I mean like the
Speaker 1: diversity of thought. Right. Like one of the issues with
Speaker 1: technology right now is it like it's a certain type
Speaker 1: of person um with with a certain type of background
Speaker 1: who's creating all of these apps and programs, and so
Speaker 1: naturally that's gonna you know, impact how and what they
Speaker 1: create UM And and also like we've seen it with
Speaker 1: you know, what's happened with some of the the social
Speaker 1: networks that are out there. A lot in the impacts
Speaker 1: that we're experiencing, you know, they weren't unknown. It was
Speaker 1: because like people who had the knowledge weren't included in
Speaker 1: the conversation, right, And so um, that's what we aren't.
Speaker 1: That's a part of Project Liberty. We know we have
Speaker 1: to to create We have to create this community that
Speaker 1: includes as much different expertise and background and experience as possible,
Speaker 1: because that's the only way we're going to be able
Speaker 1: to create something that's usable by you know us. All Um,
Speaker 1: I've I almost I almost started snapping, and then I
Speaker 1: remembered recording a podcast. I mean, that's it, right, That's
Speaker 1: like I have said this so many times on the show.
Speaker 1: People are probably rolling their eyes. But the reason why
Speaker 1: we need to make sure tech and the people that
Speaker 1: build it tech leadership are inclusive not just because it's
Speaker 1: it's the good, the nice thing to do, which it is.
Speaker 1: It's because the folks who are building these tools and
Speaker 1: these platforms that dictate so much about our world, if
Speaker 1: they're all homogeneous, there's a big chance for harm, right,
Speaker 1: and we know that harm will be focused on people
Speaker 1: who are already marginalized and so it's not just the
Speaker 1: nicest exactly exactly. Um, So I guess I have to ask,
Speaker 1: given all that and given what we know about the
Speaker 1: state of you know, technology and platforms, are you like
Speaker 1: hopeful I'm at the future of the web, the future
Speaker 1: of the internet, the future of platforms, Like do you
Speaker 1: feel like you are thinking that things on the horizon
Speaker 1: are going to be better? Are going to be worse?
Speaker 1: Like what's your what's your take? Oh, I think things
Speaker 1: are going to be better, Like, you know, maybe like
Speaker 1: a year or two ago, I would have said something different,
Speaker 1: but I think the level of awareness that people have
Speaker 1: on the impact that technol legy is having on their
Speaker 1: lives has shifted in a really significant way, and people
Speaker 1: are ready to you know, I think like, um, when
Speaker 1: like the iPhone came about and Facebook became like a
Speaker 1: dominant mode of communication, people are just like, yeah, this works,
Speaker 1: this is how it goes, and yeah, I'll give up
Speaker 1: my data because everything's free. Right, But now a few
Speaker 1: years in people are like what does that mean? And
Speaker 1: so there are really really meaningful conversations happening right now, um,
Speaker 1: in spaces that I didn't think they would take place.
Speaker 1: In you know, Like, Okay, I was listening to a
Speaker 1: basketball podcast and they started talking about blockchain and n
Speaker 1: f T right, and like it was just like like
Speaker 1: it just made me realize how like this stuff is
Speaker 1: just everywhere, everywhere, everywhere, and and and I think it's everywhere,
Speaker 1: and the level of understanding is a level deeper than
Speaker 1: it was maybe a year or two ago. And so
Speaker 1: like we have a real opportunity to to share with
Speaker 1: people and say like, hey, you know what, if you're
Speaker 1: looking for something different, we have something different, and for
Speaker 1: them to be able to understand it, right, and and
Speaker 1: and like I just don't mean project liberty. I think
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of projects and people who um have
Speaker 1: this opportunity right now. I I agree with you. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it's easy to feel dejected and downtrodden and depressed,
Speaker 1: you know, when you look at the state of the Internet.
Speaker 1: But I think that like, like you said that you
Speaker 1: were describing the early crew of Internet weirdos, and I
Speaker 1: just think that there's something about it when you bring
Speaker 1: a bunch of weird like people who are committed to
Speaker 1: thinking differently together. I believe in the power of that.
Speaker 1: I believe that that that gives me a lot of hope. Uh,
Speaker 1: that's that's pretty nice. More after a quick break, m
Speaker 1: let's get right back into it, um, one more question
Speaker 1: for you. So I know that you're a musician. You
Speaker 1: were a drummer for the Transmissions, the Transmission, the Transmissions. Wow. Thanks,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, not like you were like playing South
Speaker 1: myself West in two thousand six, like early days. I
Speaker 1: mean talk about like being foundational to all these different places.
Speaker 1: I guess my question is like do you see you
Speaker 1: know you were talking about sort of like the creativity
Speaker 1: and the innovation of um, the Internet, Like do you
Speaker 1: are those things related to you? Like the creativity and
Speaker 1: the um, you know, the creativity of being a musician
Speaker 1: and making music and making things creatively, Like are are
Speaker 1: these sort of like is it a ben diagram for
Speaker 1: you where they related? Oh my god? Like you read
Speaker 1: my mind right there, Bridget, and it totally is Like
Speaker 1: for me, it's my experience playing music was part of
Speaker 1: what fueled the way that I could think about technology.
Speaker 1: It was just like, uh, I don't know if other
Speaker 1: musicians or creative people have this experience, but like I
Speaker 1: really was conscious of using like a different part of
Speaker 1: myself in my brain when I was playing drums and
Speaker 1: performing and stuff, and it just let me and helped
Speaker 1: me like access some different things when I actually like
Speaker 1: went to work, right like I you know, learning how
Speaker 1: to perform. I use that stuff every day. I really
Speaker 1: really do, like in meetings and and stuff. Right. Um,
Speaker 1: the I mean like just like real basic like the
Speaker 1: experience of like getting to south By Southwest with my bandmates,
Speaker 1: Like what an incredible experience for us? Like what a
Speaker 1: confidence booster for us? You know, like we did that ourselves,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And like, yeah, all of
Speaker 1: this stuff is additive. And then like like just like
Speaker 1: on the plane of like thinking about how to build
Speaker 1: things creatively and collaborating with people like I drew out
Speaker 1: draws so much from you know, the bands that I
Speaker 1: played with, the collectives that I've been in to to
Speaker 1: the tech that I work in. It's it's there's totally
Speaker 1: a line um for me there women like Denise or
Speaker 1: what makes me excited to tell the stories of all
Speaker 1: the underrepresented voices and identities behind tech and the Internet
Speaker 1: and the ways we were always there working to make
Speaker 1: things better, more inclusive, more creative. Even if our stories
Speaker 1: go overlooked and not often told, and I'm so excited
Speaker 1: to join women like Denise for my very first ever
Speaker 1: live There Are No Girls on the Internet taping on
Speaker 1: September at Unfinished Live. Unfinished Live as a convening of technologists, journalists, artists,
Speaker 1: and change makers in person at the Shed in New
Speaker 1: York City and virtually online. It'll be two days of
Speaker 1: talks about how we can all use ethical tech to
Speaker 1: build a fairer economy and a stronger democracy, alongside leading
Speaker 1: minds shaping that future. Just go to live dot Unfinished
Speaker 1: dot com and use promo code tangodi. That's T A
Speaker 1: N G O T I and I can't wait to
Speaker 1: see all there got a story about an interesting thing
Speaker 1: in tech or just want to say hi? You can
Speaker 1: be us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can
Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com.
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by
Speaker 1: me Bridget tod. It's a production of I Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry
Speaker 1: Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michaelmato is our
Speaker 1: contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Dad. If you want
Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple podcasts.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: And then I have to w