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Speaker 1: There are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd,

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Speaker 1: and this is there are no Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: So when I first started getting really into the Internet,

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Speaker 1: I always assumed that I was an outlier. I never

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Speaker 1: really saw imagery of women, let alone black women taking

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Speaker 1: up a lot of space online and all the movies

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Speaker 1: and media. I saw that people who were really into

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Speaker 1: the Internet in those days were all men, and a

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Speaker 1: specific kind of man at that, you know, nerdy and

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Speaker 1: almost always white. So the story I let myself believe

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Speaker 1: was that women and people of color and queer folks,

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Speaker 1: all of us, we were all fighting to break into

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Speaker 1: this industry that was pretty much a boys club. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't until much later that I realized that story I've

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Speaker 1: been telling myself it was wrong. We'd always been there.

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Speaker 1: On the earliest days of computing and the Internet and technology,

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Speaker 1: marginalized folks were at the forefront doing work of making

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Speaker 1: it better. Now this realization allowed for a complete shift

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Speaker 1: in my thinking technology and the Internet. It's our rightful domain.

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Speaker 1: And even if our stories are not always told or appreciated,

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Speaker 1: or worse, if they're intentionally left out of the narrative.

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Speaker 1: We're still here taking up space, and we have been

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Speaker 1: from the very beginning. Women like Denise Duncan are exactly

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Speaker 1: who I'm talking about. Denise has been working in tech

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Speaker 1: since the earliest days of the Internet, and today she's

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Speaker 1: still there working to make sure the Internet is equitable

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Speaker 1: and inclusive. Denise has had a front row seat to

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Speaker 1: how the Internet has changed over the years, and voices

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Speaker 1: like hers can help us understand where it's going next. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, as a black woman in tech, what have

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Speaker 1: your experience has been like? Like, first of all, like

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Speaker 1: like what brought you to this work in general? Like

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Speaker 1: how did you get here? I started working in tech

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Speaker 1: in ninety six, started building websites kind of like as

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Speaker 1: soon as you could make a living building websites. I

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Speaker 1: got a I got an internship with a with an

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Speaker 1: organization called x org, which was a consortium that ran

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Speaker 1: a UI for Lennox called x Windows, and um it

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Speaker 1: was like an incredible place, Like the people there were

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Speaker 1: so nerdy and like a bunch of the people who

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Speaker 1: worked there like went on to work at W three

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Speaker 1: C you know, like like and they Okay, So this

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Speaker 1: was nineties six, at that time, they were experimenting with

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Speaker 1: cloud computing. Like they I saw an experiment of somebody

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Speaker 1: running Windows, running Windows and Word on one machine and

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Speaker 1: using it on another one in right, like they already

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Speaker 1: like made that leap at that time, right, which is incredible.

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Speaker 1: And I studied physics when I was in school, and um,

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Speaker 1: like I said, I got involved like at the very

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Speaker 1: very beginning of the Internet. So at my like works

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Speaker 1: the job, I spent a lot of time, um browsing

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Speaker 1: the web, you know, like and it was Netscape one

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, we actually used something called links I think,

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Speaker 1: which was like a text based browser and like let

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Speaker 1: me just go like I'll beeek out a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: We I actually like the whole four way foray into

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Speaker 1: um kind of like the Internet. In the web was

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Speaker 1: using Gopher and um Archie, which were like precursors to

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Speaker 1: the Web. Like Archie would allow you to search a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different archives and stuff for files and everything,

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Speaker 1: and Gopher was like almost like the Web, but it

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Speaker 1: was very highly structured, so you had to like go

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Speaker 1: through all these menus and stuff. Right. So anyway, like

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Speaker 1: at my job, so I used like Archie Gopher for school,

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Speaker 1: and stuff. And at my job, I started playing around

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Speaker 1: with with Netscape because my boss was like she discovered

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Speaker 1: the Internet and the web because she was a UM

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Speaker 1: she would go coupon shopping right and like even at

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Speaker 1: that time, like she was finding deals and deals. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I started playing around with it, and I just realized,

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Speaker 1: like you know, it was very easy to actually figure

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Speaker 1: out how it all worked, Like building a web page

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Speaker 1: just took like looking at the source and the browser

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Speaker 1: and working it out from there. So you know, I

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Speaker 1: was kind of like at this place where I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I studied physics. I'm pretty sure I don't want to

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Speaker 1: become a research scientist. Um, what am I going to

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Speaker 1: do with this? So I got that internship at x

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Speaker 1: org and like, um that the rest is history to

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Speaker 1: some extent. So you you know, you talked a little

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Speaker 1: bit about sort of you know, seeing all this wild

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Speaker 1: stuff like the cloud, the early cloud computing and all that,

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Speaker 1: and he talked about how it was sort of all

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Speaker 1: this geeky, nerdy stuff. Did you feel like I have

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Speaker 1: found my people when you were doing this early internet work,

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Speaker 1: where you like I have found my people or did

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Speaker 1: you feel like this is what I want to be doing,

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Speaker 1: but showing up here as myself in this space feels fraught,

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Speaker 1: Like like, what what were the feelings like being at

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Speaker 1: the forefront of the Internet in this way? Oh wow,

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Speaker 1: that's such an interesting question, and I've never really thought

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Speaker 1: about that. I think in a lot of ways, I

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Speaker 1: did feel like these are my people because I think

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Speaker 1: in those early days, like, let me say this, I

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Speaker 1: think the Internet changed completely around two thousand seven two eight,

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Speaker 1: when the when the iPhone came around, right, I think

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Speaker 1: before that it was a really different universe where it

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Speaker 1: was kind of populated by geeks and nerds who just

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Speaker 1: vibed on being geeks and nerds together, right, and like

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Speaker 1: it didn't matter, like um, like it was just like

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Speaker 1: we're cool because like you know, uh, yeah, we're cool

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Speaker 1: because like we're going on all dot whatever and checking

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Speaker 1: out you know, Melvin songs or D and D tips

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Speaker 1: together or whatever. Right, So, like there was and there

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Speaker 1: was all of this experimentation, like there were so many

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Speaker 1: sites that were just like nonsense or like weird art

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Speaker 1: projects and stuff like that. And so I did feel

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Speaker 1: like I found my people because like I was, I'm

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Speaker 1: all about that, like just like creating for creating sake,

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Speaker 1: and you know there's like such a short feedback loop,

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Speaker 1: especially at the web with the Web at that time,

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Speaker 1: like building a web page, like you just saw stuff instantly, right,

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Speaker 1: So it was really good, like creative medium. I think,

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Speaker 1: Like I'll tell you about my first paying job that

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Speaker 1: I got. It was a place called the Internet Company

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Speaker 1: that literally owned the domain internet dot com. Um we

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Speaker 1: used to get um okay, so we had like oup

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Speaker 1: at internet dot com. Right. Every once in a while

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Speaker 1: we get like an awesome one like hey Internet, where's

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Speaker 1: the poor neat? Oh my god. And the guys that

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Speaker 1: I worked with, they're like so I think like two

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Speaker 1: or three of the guys who founded the Internet Company

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Speaker 1: were in like the Boston Phoenix, like their free paper.

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Speaker 1: They're like the who's who the Internet at that time. Um,

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Speaker 1: so they like understood what was coming and they owned

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Speaker 1: all they Like one of the guys in me off

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Speaker 1: my office owned the domain god dot com. Right. So

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Speaker 1: another funny story, like somebody wrote him as like dear

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Speaker 1: God and the guitarist from my band and he wrote

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Speaker 1: back and he was like, sorry, I play bass. I

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Speaker 1: love that anyone does. Sort of you sort of get

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Speaker 1: this sense that these were folks who, like you said,

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Speaker 1: they knew what was coming, and they were really putting

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Speaker 1: down infrastructure, camping out in domain names that they knew

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Speaker 1: were going to be big um. And so you really

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Speaker 1: had a front seat to a lot of that early

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Speaker 1: architecture of what we know as the Internet. Because she

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Speaker 1: had such a foundational role of building out the earliest

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Speaker 1: architecture of what the Internet would eventually become, Denise feels

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Speaker 1: a real sense of responsibility to work to make it better,

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Speaker 1: which show word our Project Liberty, an initiative of Unfinished

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Speaker 1: Labs that tries to transform how the Internet works and

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Speaker 1: who benefits from the digital economy by creating new civic

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Speaker 1: architecture for our digital world. At Project Liberty, Denise uses blockchain,

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Speaker 1: a digital ledger of transactions that allow for digital information

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Speaker 1: to be recorded and distributed to build civic technology to

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Speaker 1: imagine the next generation of the Web, one that serves people,

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Speaker 1: not platforms. That's actually why, like what attracted me to

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Speaker 1: the project, the Project Liberty is because like I was there,

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Speaker 1: and you know, in all honesty, like I feel some

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Speaker 1: responsibility for where we've ended up, right um, where the

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Speaker 1: web has ended up, and like I'm not I know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not responsible, but here's why. Right, Like at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: we were all like, Okay, this is cool, but like

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Speaker 1: how are we going to make money? Like how do

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Speaker 1: we keep these awesome jobs? Right? Um? And like eventually

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Speaker 1: and and you know when you were talking about finding

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Speaker 1: your people, like we would have um barbecues. We go

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Speaker 1: to this group pub every Friday, right the Internet company,

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Speaker 1: and hang out and drank a whole lot and talk

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Speaker 1: and talk and talk and and like so we learned

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Speaker 1: a lot about each other's like philosophies. Right, So a

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Speaker 1: lot of people there the Internet was about like freedom,

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Speaker 1: Like the web was about the ability for people to broadcast.

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Speaker 1: It was all about like individuals being able to speak

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Speaker 1: for themselves, right, Like all of us believe that that's

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Speaker 1: why we were there, in order to enable people to

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Speaker 1: have a voice. But what happened was at some point,

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Speaker 1: you know, Google started, ad tech started, and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, like, oh, we are making money, right, we

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Speaker 1: are able to support this. We have to sell out

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Speaker 1: a little bit in order to do it right, but

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Speaker 1: we can do it right. And so like at that point,

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Speaker 1: I became like super ambivalent about working in the tech

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Speaker 1: industry because that felt like a real betrayal of like that,

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Speaker 1: like it's about letting people speak, right it, you know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't about little people speak. It was about surveilling

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Speaker 1: people at that point. Right. So, when um, I talked

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Speaker 1: to Braxton about Project Liberty, he and I go back

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Speaker 1: a little while, Like, um, he was saying, like, I know,

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Speaker 1: you're interested in doing something a little different, like maybe

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Speaker 1: moving on from tech, moving into you know, something a

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Speaker 1: little bit more mission driven, like let me tell you

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Speaker 1: about this. And it was a perfect marriage, right of

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Speaker 1: the knowledge and experience I have from um, you know,

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Speaker 1: working in tech for so long, and the desire I

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Speaker 1: had to to move into a space where I was

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Speaker 1: doing things for people, because I think the other part

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Speaker 1: of my ambivalence was, like, you know, I realized, like

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Speaker 1: the tech industry is a great way to make a

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Speaker 1: living and one of the only good ways to make

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Speaker 1: a living in this country right now, right, And so

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Speaker 1: why is that right? And and why is Facebook like

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Speaker 1: a technology company requiring people to move to San Francisco

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Speaker 1: to work for them, right like you know, So anyway,

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Speaker 1: so I really saw it as an opportunity to help

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Speaker 1: do a little reset back to the original ideas of

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Speaker 1: what the web was founded on. I mean, as far

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Speaker 1: as i'm concer let's take a quick right, how a back.

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Speaker 1: I know that Project Liberty is all about sort of

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Speaker 1: using tech to make sure the web is you know,

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Speaker 1: open and equitable and really centered on people. Can you

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Speaker 1: talk us through a little bit about how you how

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Speaker 1: you are speaking to accomplish that, how you do that? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So it's been a journey for us, right, because what

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Speaker 1: we're trying to do is not with the tech industry

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Speaker 1: is motivated by us naturally, Right, We're trying to build

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Speaker 1: this public infrastructure to help take social networks, the social graph,

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Speaker 1: right is the technical term for it. Take the social

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Speaker 1: graph and make it a you know, a universally owned

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Speaker 1: property so that every individual can decide what they want

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Speaker 1: to do with the information that you know exists in

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Speaker 1: that social breath. And it also means that you know,

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Speaker 1: these companies that are dominating the space now don't get

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Speaker 1: to hold onto your data and don't get to hold

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Speaker 1: onto your relationships like you own those connections. Right because

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Speaker 1: right now, if you leave Facebook, you leave you're leaving

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Speaker 1: like I leave Facebook and leaving like five connections that

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Speaker 1: I've built up over the years and why is that right?

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Speaker 1: So the idea behind Project Liberty is what we have

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Speaker 1: to do is make the social graph of public good

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Speaker 1: and then see what that unleashes as far as innovation creativity,

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Speaker 1: because you know, one of the things that we're doing

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Speaker 1: is building this this protocol on top of the blockchain, okay,

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Speaker 1: and and and we're doing that because that allows us

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Speaker 1: we can't in other places. And it also gives us

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Speaker 1: really build in incentives for people to come aboard. And

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Speaker 1: in that way, it's really different than the model that

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Speaker 1: exist in Silicon Valley, right, which is you know, it's

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Speaker 1: about who you know, it's about those venture capitalists. With

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Speaker 1: the blockchain, what we have the opportunity for, like you

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Speaker 1: can invest in the project that you're interested in. We're

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Speaker 1: going to take advantage of that, right and and figure

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Speaker 1: out some ways to, like I said, create those incentives

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Speaker 1: to bring different types of people um into this uh

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Speaker 1: in a way that we can't now um with the

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Speaker 1: with the current system. Yeah, I mean when people hear

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Speaker 1: things like blockchain, I feel like automatically what you condropt

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Speaker 1: is like Bro was talking about crypto, and I do

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Speaker 1: wish that we could broaden the conversation to folks who

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Speaker 1: to try to build more equitable systems and you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of build that into it. I wish I wish

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Speaker 1: that it was something that had a it was didn't

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Speaker 1: automatically conjurupt the bros talking crypto, that it conjured up

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Speaker 1: what you're talking about, you know, but that I think

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Speaker 1: like that's the opportunity that we have right now, right

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Speaker 1: because what we have, what we have to do with

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Speaker 1: this project is create this diverse coalition of people who

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Speaker 1: were going to support it. And like I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't just mean like people with color or women or

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Speaker 1: l l G B t Q. I mean like the

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Speaker 1: diversity of thought. Right. Like one of the issues with

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Speaker 1: technology right now is it like it's a certain type

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Speaker 1: of person um with with a certain type of background

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Speaker 1: who's creating all of these apps and programs, and so

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Speaker 1: naturally that's gonna you know, impact how and what they

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Speaker 1: create UM And and also like we've seen it with

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Speaker 1: you know, what's happened with some of the the social

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Speaker 1: networks that are out there. A lot in the impacts

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Speaker 1: that we're experiencing, you know, they weren't unknown. It was

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Speaker 1: because like people who had the knowledge weren't included in

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Speaker 1: the conversation, right, And so um, that's what we aren't.

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Speaker 1: That's a part of Project Liberty. We know we have

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Speaker 1: to to create We have to create this community that

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Speaker 1: includes as much different expertise and background and experience as possible,

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Speaker 1: because that's the only way we're going to be able

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Speaker 1: to create something that's usable by you know us. All Um,

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Speaker 1: I've I almost I almost started snapping, and then I

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Speaker 1: remembered recording a podcast. I mean, that's it, right, That's

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Speaker 1: like I have said this so many times on the show.

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Speaker 1: People are probably rolling their eyes. But the reason why

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Speaker 1: we need to make sure tech and the people that

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Speaker 1: build it tech leadership are inclusive not just because it's

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Speaker 1: it's the good, the nice thing to do, which it is.

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Speaker 1: It's because the folks who are building these tools and

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Speaker 1: these platforms that dictate so much about our world, if

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Speaker 1: they're all homogeneous, there's a big chance for harm, right,

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Speaker 1: and we know that harm will be focused on people

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Speaker 1: who are already marginalized and so it's not just the

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Speaker 1: nicest exactly exactly. Um, So I guess I have to ask,

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Speaker 1: given all that and given what we know about the

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Speaker 1: state of you know, technology and platforms, are you like

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Speaker 1: hopeful I'm at the future of the web, the future

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Speaker 1: of the internet, the future of platforms, Like do you

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Speaker 1: feel like you are thinking that things on the horizon

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Speaker 1: are going to be better? Are going to be worse?

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Speaker 1: Like what's your what's your take? Oh, I think things

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Speaker 1: are going to be better, Like, you know, maybe like

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Speaker 1: a year or two ago, I would have said something different,

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Speaker 1: but I think the level of awareness that people have

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Speaker 1: on the impact that technol legy is having on their

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Speaker 1: lives has shifted in a really significant way, and people

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Speaker 1: are ready to you know, I think like, um, when

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Speaker 1: like the iPhone came about and Facebook became like a

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Speaker 1: dominant mode of communication, people are just like, yeah, this works,

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Speaker 1: this is how it goes, and yeah, I'll give up

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Speaker 1: my data because everything's free. Right, But now a few

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Speaker 1: years in people are like what does that mean? And

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Speaker 1: so there are really really meaningful conversations happening right now, um,

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Speaker 1: in spaces that I didn't think they would take place.

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Speaker 1: In you know, Like, Okay, I was listening to a

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Speaker 1: basketball podcast and they started talking about blockchain and n

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Speaker 1: f T right, and like it was just like like

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Speaker 1: it just made me realize how like this stuff is

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Speaker 1: just everywhere, everywhere, everywhere, and and and I think it's everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and the level of understanding is a level deeper than

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Speaker 1: it was maybe a year or two ago. And so

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Speaker 1: like we have a real opportunity to to share with

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Speaker 1: people and say like, hey, you know what, if you're

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Speaker 1: looking for something different, we have something different, and for

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Speaker 1: them to be able to understand it, right, and and

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Speaker 1: and like I just don't mean project liberty. I think

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Speaker 1: there's all kinds of projects and people who um have

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Speaker 1: this opportunity right now. I I agree with you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it's easy to feel dejected and downtrodden and depressed,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you look at the state of the Internet.

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Speaker 1: But I think that like, like you said that you

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Speaker 1: were describing the early crew of Internet weirdos, and I

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Speaker 1: just think that there's something about it when you bring

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Speaker 1: a bunch of weird like people who are committed to

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Speaker 1: thinking differently together. I believe in the power of that.

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Speaker 1: I believe that that that gives me a lot of hope. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that's that's pretty nice. More after a quick break, m

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Speaker 1: let's get right back into it, um, one more question

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Speaker 1: for you. So I know that you're a musician. You

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Speaker 1: were a drummer for the Transmissions, the Transmission, the Transmissions. Wow. Thanks,

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, not like you were like playing South

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Speaker 1: myself West in two thousand six, like early days. I

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Speaker 1: mean talk about like being foundational to all these different places.

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Speaker 1: I guess my question is like do you see you

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Speaker 1: know you were talking about sort of like the creativity

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Speaker 1: and the innovation of um, the Internet, Like do you

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Speaker 1: are those things related to you? Like the creativity and

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Speaker 1: the um, you know, the creativity of being a musician

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Speaker 1: and making music and making things creatively, Like are are

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Speaker 1: these sort of like is it a ben diagram for

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Speaker 1: you where they related? Oh my god? Like you read

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Speaker 1: my mind right there, Bridget, and it totally is Like

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Speaker 1: for me, it's my experience playing music was part of

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Speaker 1: what fueled the way that I could think about technology.

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Speaker 1: It was just like, uh, I don't know if other

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Speaker 1: musicians or creative people have this experience, but like I

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Speaker 1: really was conscious of using like a different part of

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Speaker 1: myself in my brain when I was playing drums and

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Speaker 1: performing and stuff, and it just let me and helped

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Speaker 1: me like access some different things when I actually like

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Speaker 1: went to work, right like I you know, learning how

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Speaker 1: to perform. I use that stuff every day. I really

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Speaker 1: really do, like in meetings and and stuff. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: the I mean like just like real basic like the

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Speaker 1: experience of like getting to south By Southwest with my bandmates,

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Speaker 1: Like what an incredible experience for us? Like what a

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Speaker 1: confidence booster for us? You know, like we did that ourselves,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And like, yeah, all of

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Speaker 1: this stuff is additive. And then like like just like

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Speaker 1: on the plane of like thinking about how to build

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Speaker 1: things creatively and collaborating with people like I drew out

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Speaker 1: draws so much from you know, the bands that I

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Speaker 1: played with, the collectives that I've been in to to

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Speaker 1: the tech that I work in. It's it's there's totally

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Speaker 1: a line um for me there women like Denise or

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Speaker 1: what makes me excited to tell the stories of all

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Speaker 1: the underrepresented voices and identities behind tech and the Internet

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Speaker 1: and the ways we were always there working to make

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Speaker 1: things better, more inclusive, more creative. Even if our stories

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Speaker 1: go overlooked and not often told, and I'm so excited

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Speaker 1: to join women like Denise for my very first ever

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Speaker 1: live There Are No Girls on the Internet taping on

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Speaker 1: September at Unfinished Live. Unfinished Live as a convening of technologists, journalists, artists,

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Speaker 1: and change makers in person at the Shed in New

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Speaker 1: York City and virtually online. It'll be two days of

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Speaker 1: talks about how we can all use ethical tech to

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Speaker 1: build a fairer economy and a stronger democracy, alongside leading

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Speaker 1: minds shaping that future. Just go to live dot Unfinished

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Speaker 1: dot com and use promo code tangodi. That's T A

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Speaker 1: N G O T I and I can't wait to

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Speaker 1: see all there got a story about an interesting thing

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Speaker 1: in tech or just want to say hi? You can

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Speaker 1: be us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can

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Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com.

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

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Speaker 1: me Bridget tod. It's a production of I Heart Radio

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Speaker 1: and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry

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Speaker 1: Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michaelmato is our

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Speaker 1: contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Dad. If you want

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Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple podcasts.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart

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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: And then I have to w