1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,239 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Saga. Hey, Robert, 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: do you believe in ghosts? I believe in ghosts stories. 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: I've I've never had a supernatural experience. I have not 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: seen a ghost. I've I've spoken to many people who 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: claim to have seen him, or they seem something they 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: can't fully explain and turn to the ghost narrative. But yeah, 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: for my own part, I don't believe in ghosts, but 10 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: I believe in the power of ghost stories. Yeah, that's 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: I think that's a good position to take on this. 12 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: I don't know that I necessarily believe in ghosts. I 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: don't not believe in ghosts, if that makes sense, But 14 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: I'm open to the idea. And I do know too 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: people though, who are sort of into the whole amateur 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: ghost hunting thing and will like occasionally go to like 17 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: abandoned houses in middle of nowhere with what do you 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: call him, like E M F meters and stuff like 19 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: that and try to do like spirit photography. But uh, 20 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: it's never really struck me as something that that was 21 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: particularly interesting. One time I was with this guy who 22 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: this is one of the people who's into this, and 23 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: we're driving by the cemetery where like half of my 24 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,839 Speaker 1: family is buried, and he was telling me about how 25 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: he had been like hanging out in that cemetery doing 26 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: ghost hunting in the middle of the night. It just 27 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: strikes me as a bit too radio shack from my 28 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: own like hanging out in the cemetery going to try 29 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: and see a ghost. I'm all in favor of that visit, 30 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: going on ghost tours, that sort of thing. I love it, 31 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: But in terms of like building some device and then 32 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: using it or perhaps misusing it to try and find 33 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: evidence of supernatural activity unless it's an actual proton pack, 34 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: I'm just not really on board. That would be great 35 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: if we could get an actual proton pack out of it. 36 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: I think a lot more people would be involved. But 37 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: you gotta go on licensed with it. That's true. Yeah, 38 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: But this particular episode, just so that you are all aware, 39 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: is not going to be one where we look at 40 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: ghost hunting and say, oh, well, this is all pseudoscience, right, Like, 41 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: we're not going to do that breakdown. I'm sure you've 42 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: probably heard or seen that many times before. Uh, this 43 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: is we're more interested in ghost stories in this episode, 44 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: and we're gonna look at ghost stories from around the 45 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: world and how they reflect the human condition. Uh So, Yeah, 46 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: there's lots of studies about e v P or infrasound 47 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: and how the ghost hunters have flawed methodologies and all 48 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: that stuff, Right, but that's not really what we're gonna 49 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: do in this particular episode. Yeah, we we decided to 50 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: look to each continent, and we realized that that's that's 51 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: a very broad system, and we're going to leave out 52 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: a lot of wonderful ghost stories and ghost traditions and 53 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: spirit belief systems. But we decided to just hit each 54 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: continent that has human habitation and pick out one particular 55 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: ghost story or ghost belief system that has some sort 56 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: of anthropological, psychological, or scientific basis for discussion. Right, and 57 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: why are we doing this, you may ask yourselves, This 58 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: seems like an unusual topic for stuff to blow your 59 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: mind a science podcast. Well, hey, it's October for us. 60 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: Maybe listening to this in January, but it is now 61 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: October for us in space and time. In every October, 62 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: we do episodes that are related to Halloween, and this 63 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: is one of them. Yeah, and by no means that 64 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: this episode stand outside of a lot of the topics 65 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: we cover, because, as we discuss in this episode, you're 66 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: gonna find links to episodes that we've covered dealing with 67 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: psychology and anthropology, belief systems, and just sort of the 68 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: tension that emerges in a post colonial world. Yeah. In fact, 69 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: we have an entire episode that Robert and I did 70 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: about Chinese ghost weddings that immediately sprang to mind here. 71 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: But people are probably wondering, well, what do you mean 72 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: by ghost story? That's a pretty broad, you know, thing 73 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: to talk about. Specifically, we're talking about fiction that either 74 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: includes a ghost or the characters in the stories belief 75 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: in ghosts. Sometimes, you know, ghost stories are used to 76 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: just be scary, right, but we're particularly interested in stories 77 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: that have ghosts in them here, not just any old 78 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: scary story. Yeah. I feel like a ghost story really 79 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: tells you something about the the storyteller or the storyteller's 80 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: culture as it relates to bereavement and death and loss 81 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: and what they think about the afterlife and just how 82 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: they deal with death on a day to day basis. Yeah. 83 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: I think I mentioned this in one of our other 84 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: October episodes that we've recorded this month. But to me, 85 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: horror stories in general are cautionary tales, and ultimately we 86 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: started passing them down to one another over the generations, 87 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: whether it was around a campfire or in a book, 88 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: right in these tomes of literature, because they teach us 89 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: something about the world and about surviving in it. And 90 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: so that's what I think I'm interested in finding out 91 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: here about all these very cultures from around the world 92 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: and what they've passed on and are trying to teach 93 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: one another. Yeah. Indeed, and now one more thought before 94 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: we actually began to get into the media the episode. 95 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: We recently had an episode Joe and I recently did 96 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: one on the Bicameral Mind, and I know that if 97 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: you recently listen to those episodes, you're gonna think to 98 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: that time after time in this because we're gonna talking 99 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: about like dead voices speaking to the living in this episode. 100 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: We're really not going to get into any bicameral Mind 101 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: theories regarding the subject matter, but certainly if connections occur 102 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: to you right into us, let us know on social media, 103 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: because there's there's plenty of of of room to compare 104 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: the two. Right, So we're gonna start off with Europe. 105 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: Why are we starting with Europe? Well, that is I 106 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: think the foundation for what most people listening to this 107 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: show have for their idea of a ghost story, and 108 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: it seems like a good place to sort of cement ourselves. Especially. 109 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: This is not going to be like a literary podcast 110 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: where we're going to walk through the sort of literary 111 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: history of ghost stories, but we'll give you like a 112 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: very very concise summary before each of these. I should 113 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: also say that the sort of the the European ghost 114 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: stinku manages to work its way into a lot of 115 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: these other ghost traditions that we're going to discuss. Yes, 116 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: it does, for sure, we we we will find it 117 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: on almost every continent, and we had to when we 118 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: were choosing what stories we were going to share with you, 119 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: we had to be very mindful of the sort of 120 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: European colonial aspect of ghost stories. So ghosts and hauntings 121 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: they actually appear in European literature as early as the 122 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: ancient Greeks. Now obviously this extends into Shakespeare with literature 123 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: and drama. We all know the ghost of Hamlet's father 124 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: that shows up in Hamlet for instance. Now here's an 125 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: interesting thing that I learned with relation to the Shakespeare stuff, though, 126 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: this is where we get the sheeted ghost from. So 127 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: the whole idea of somebody just wearing a sheet with 128 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: holes punched into it to like represent a ghost doesn't 129 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: directly come from Shakespeare, but it comes from dramatic presentations 130 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: of ghosts on the stage. The reason why was they 131 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: were originally depicted in armor. So these big suits of 132 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: armor would be like rigged up on police systems and 133 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: and like lowered onto the stage, and that was supposed 134 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: to invoke a ghost. But as you may imagine, armors 135 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: pretty heavy and that was difficult to pull off every night. 136 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: So they turned to what they referred to as spirit 137 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: drapery h and that was essentially putting the sheet over 138 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: somebody's head and they would go oh uh. Ghost stories 139 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: though then extended into Gothic literature, and the difference seems 140 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: to be whether or not the ghost stories themselves had 141 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: a contemporary setting. And this this seems to be fairly 142 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: important in the European sense of ghost stories. Now, the 143 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: golden age in literature of ghost stories really seems to 144 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: kick off in the eighteen hundreds. You've got po Sheridan Lafaneu, 145 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: who we've talked about on the show before, wrote Green Tea. 146 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: We have a whole episode on his concept of whether 147 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: or not green tea would make you see hallucinations or 148 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: ghosts uh, and lots of others, which leads us to 149 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: m R James, who I really want to talk about 150 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: here for a second because he's he's really considered the 151 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: master of the ghost story. And James lived from eighteen 152 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: sixty two to nineteen thirty six. He was a college provost. 153 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: He did not tell ghost stories for a living. In fact, 154 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: he studied medieval history in the Bible. But he is 155 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: now known best today as a teller of ghost stories 156 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: because what he would do is every Christmas Eve he 157 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: would compose a new ghost story and he would have 158 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: people come over, whether they were students or acquaintances, and 159 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: he would present them with a ghost story. And so 160 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: this is where we get his ghost stories of the 161 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: Antiquary from. And if you haven't read these, I really 162 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 1: recommend it. I think they hold up. It is my 163 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: new holiday tradition to read an m. R. James story 164 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: every Christmas. Oh yeah, this is this is one of 165 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: the big names and for sure. Yeah. So James wrote 166 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 1: an article for a magazine called The Bookman in December 167 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: nine and this was his official five point designation of 168 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: what you needed to have in your European slash English 169 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: ghost story. Okay, so these are the five things we're 170 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: looking for here to be a true ghost story. The 171 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: supernatural quality of the ghost can't be explained away with rationality. Okay, 172 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: so you can't. You can't have like a science or 173 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: pseudoscience kind of explanation. The second is that the ghost 174 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: story itself should inspire the reader with what he calls 175 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: pleasing terror. So he essentially means like that's sort of 176 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: like adrenaline high that you get when you go to 177 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: see a horror movie, right, like the the excitement of 178 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: the fight or flight response of being presented with a 179 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: horror story. The third is a ghost story should not 180 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: have gratuitous violence or sex in it, which I thought 181 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: was interesting, especially where most of our ghost stories go nowadays. 182 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: Now I have to say that one of my favorite 183 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: haunted house books that Richard Matheson's Hell Houses already already 184 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: it's broken too of these rules. Yeah, it's interesting, and 185 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: I think that there's an argument to be made that 186 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: might have been appropriate for James time, but you can 187 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 1: still make it work nowadays. Ghost stories this is the 188 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: last one should have a contemporary setting where the reader 189 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: can identify with the protagonist. So basically it needs to 190 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: be it can't be like a period piece, that is 191 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: what he's saying, because you won't necessarily identify with the 192 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: protagonist as quickly and put yourself in their position. So again, 193 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: I think you can probably manipulate that I've seen lots 194 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: of good ghost stories were still we're still watching a 195 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: lot and reading a lot of these these older ghost stories, 196 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: and we don't have any trouble exactly like Mr James 197 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: ghost stories. Yeah. Um, but let's step back and take 198 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: a look at James style and of himself. Okay, So 199 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: James wrote ghost stories that were usually set in a 200 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: small European town. His protagonist was almost always what would 201 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: be like some kind of gentleman's scholar, uh, and they 202 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: would discover some antique object and that would kick off 203 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: the lot to the ghost showing up. Uh. He also 204 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: thought it was really important to build atmosphere and have 205 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: like an accelerating pace or intensity to these stories. Dread 206 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: so this leads to his whole pleasing terror idea. The 207 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: characters in his stories were usually ordinary people, and the 208 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: reason why is he wanted us again to be able 209 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: to relate to who they are, especially when they're pulled 210 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: out of their calm environment by something that's ominous or malevolent. Right, 211 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: so again just being able to put yourself in the 212 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: shoes of the of the main characters. Now, after Mr James, 213 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: in the early twentieth century, English ghost stories began to 214 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: incorporate psychological aspects into them. So when you hear people 215 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: talk about psychological horror, this is when this kind of 216 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: kicked off. And I'm thinking here of some of our 217 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: favorites like Algernon Blackwood and William Hope Hodgson, both wonderful. 218 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: Hodgson wrote The night Lands. Yeah, yeah, Now today the 219 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: modern ghost tale, or what is sometimes referred to just 220 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: as weird fiction. The writer I think that is most 221 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: soociated with European ghost stories is probably Ramsey campbell Um. 222 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: So if you're not familiar with him, check out his work. 223 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: He doesn't exclusively write ghost stories. In fact, he started 224 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: off as a kind of Lovecraft homage guy. But but 225 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: he seems to have like taken up that mantle. So, 226 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: now that we've got that out of the way, what's 227 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: my pick for a great European ghost story that that 228 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 1: shows us something about ourselves. I'm gonna choose Daphne de 229 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: Mauriers Don't Look Now. And you may be familiar with 230 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: this because there was a movie that was made out 231 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: of it that stars Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie and 232 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: was directed by Nicholas Rogue. It's wonderful film as well. 233 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be talking about both throughout this, but I 234 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: really feel like it's a It's a great example of 235 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: both the European ghost story and the psychological trend that 236 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: we started to see in the twentieth century. So you 237 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: may have not heard of Damria. She actually wrote in 238 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: a lot of different styles. She wasn't strictly a horror writer, say, 239 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: but her novels and short stories were adapted into horror 240 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: movies like Don't Look Now, and then Alfred Hitchcock's films 241 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: Rebecca and The Birds were both based cat Maria. I 242 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: was not I was not aware that The Birds was 243 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: based on a written work. Yeah, yeah, me either until 244 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: I sat down to do this research. So real quick 245 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you the summary of Don't Look Now. 246 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: Spoilers for Don't Look Now. It's about a husband and 247 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: wife who are visiting Venice after they have had a 248 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: young daughter who died. In the book, I believe she 249 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: died of meningitis. In the film, she is drowned in 250 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: a pond in their backyard. They go to Venice so 251 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 1: they can kind of shake this off, and they encounter 252 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: two twins, one of whom claims to be a seer, 253 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: and the seer tells them, oh, I can see your 254 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: daughter's ghost. She's right there with you. This is a 255 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: comforting thing. You should be happy now. The husband, John 256 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: begins seeing a hooded little girl and he starts following 257 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: her around Venice. There's some kind of sense that maybe 258 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: the sears around and maybe I'm somehow sensing the ghost 259 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: of my dead daughter. I'm going to go follow her. Later, 260 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: he sees his wife with these two twins, sisters, and 261 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: they're on their way back to their hotel in Venice 262 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: on a boat, and he thinks, well, wait a minute, 263 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: what's she doing. I saw her just leave for the 264 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: airport to go to England. Why are they coming back? 265 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: And he's like yelling at them, and they don't they 266 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: don't recognize him, they don't seem to hear him, and 267 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: he's kind of freaking out, like reality seems to be 268 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: falling apart for him. Uh. And one of the twins says, well, actually, 269 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: what you saw was a vision of the future. Now, 270 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: at the end of the story, he has killed there's 271 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: a this is kind of a random thing that there's 272 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: a serial killer running around the streets of Venice who 273 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: kills him. Uh. And in the I think it's in 274 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: both the short story and well definitely in the film 275 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: it is a murderous old dwarf woman. Uh. And she 276 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: murders him, and as he's dying, he realizes, oh, I 277 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: was actually seeing the future. My wife was coming back 278 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: in that future orientation to bury me. This was she 279 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: was coming back for my funeral because I've been murdered 280 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: here and so like, he sort of falls into this 281 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: situation where he's like, wait, am I a ghost or 282 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: have I been a ghost this whole time? Or am 283 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: I experiencing some kind of extrasensory perception type thing. Well, 284 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: I was not. I have not seen it or read it. 285 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: I was not expecting the funeral Dwarf to play Man. 286 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: You've got to see the movie. It's so good. I 287 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: really recommend the short story too, it's quite good. Now 288 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: I turned to our old buddy St. Joshi, who is 289 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: the go to expert on all things horror literature. He 290 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: has this awesome book, Unutterable Horror, that I use anytime 291 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: I'm looking for literary reference on the history of horror, 292 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: and St Josh he's right up on Daphne de Maurier 293 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: was about two pages long. He says Don't Look Now 294 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: is his favorite of her stories. But then, in typical 295 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: Joshi fashion, where he's kind of curmudgeon lee about writers, 296 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: he says her work is not to be entirely despised. Yeah, 297 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: that's really for him. Those are quite high marks. Yeah, um, 298 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: so I recommend it. But obviously, like I said, de 299 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: Morier's work kind of goes all over the place. So 300 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: if you're looking for horror stories, i'd recommend starting with 301 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: Don't Look Now. Okay, Well, how does it match up 302 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: with him R. James Rules for ghost stories? Yeah, this 303 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: is a good question. So let's take a look at 304 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: him or james rules and put them up against the 305 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: the Mourier story. Here so okay, Yes, the supernatural isn't 306 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: explained away with rationality at any point in the story. 307 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: In fact, the husband is constantly trying to say, there's 308 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: no supernatural events going on. I'm a rational man, I 309 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: don't believe in these things. And then at the end 310 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: comes around as he's dying and I guess turning into 311 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: a ghost. The story itself, just like uh m R 312 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: James prescribes, builds dread in a way that I would 313 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: describe as pleasing terror in his his words, the short 314 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: story itself is not gratuitous, but I do have to 315 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: mention and the film is infamous for the sex scene 316 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 1: between Julie Christie and Donald Sutherland. It is this famous, 317 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: infamous scene of the two of them having sex, and 318 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: four years people thought it was real. People thought it 319 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: was like not simulated, that they had actually had sex 320 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: in a hotel room in Nicholas. Rogue just shot that, 321 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: and in fact, uh, that's not true at all. Rogue 322 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: kind of like played around the idea over the years 323 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: of just keeping the press, you know, going with this 324 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: urban myth. But I'll also say there's a good bit 325 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: of fake blood in this movie too. You see a 326 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: lot of like, uh, nineteen seventies style fake blood, it's 327 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: like really viscous, you know that's that style. Okay, So 328 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: it's so it's This is an example though, where I 329 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: would say, like the sex and the violence still works 330 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: in a ghost story. Um, the supernatural isn't really explained 331 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: at any point. The setting at the time was contemporary Venice. 332 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: They didn't have it in any kind of period. Now 333 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: if you're watching it now, it's almost fifty years later. 334 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: Now here's what's interesting. When you look at it up 335 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: against m R James Tropes. John is just like one 336 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: of his characters, he's a man of rationality in the film, 337 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: he's an architect and he's written a book about geometry, 338 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: so he's very grounded in the whole idea of being 339 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: a rational man. And uh, just making sure that you know, 340 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: he is the patriarchal figure that's kind of trying to 341 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: hold everything together. Now at this point, I feel like 342 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: we we've established sort of the guidelines for a European 343 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: horror story, and we've talked about the the the qualities 344 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: of this particular story. What what does all of this 345 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: reveal about the human condition of Europeans. So I found 346 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: an article that was written by G. Whisker in and 347 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: it's about de Maurier's horror writing, and it was published 348 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Gender Studies, and I think that 349 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: it does a really good job of explaining what she 350 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: was trying to do without being overt about it. Essentially, 351 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: Whisker argues that horror at its best intervenes in our 352 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: critical understanding of the political, social, sexual, and psychological world. 353 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: Now it allows us to explore fears and then we 354 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:11,959 Speaker 1: can put them back away again, right, Like we can 355 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: take them out of the box, and we can put 356 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: them back away. We don't have to live with them. 357 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: And this is especially true if you're following the M. R. 358 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: James doctrine of ghost stories, right, yeah, especially the the 359 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: idea of like keeping it safe, I guess, right, Like, 360 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: like the way that he would write them kept them 361 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: contained within the world of the ghost story, so when 362 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: you were done with it didn't linger. Now, Okay. So 363 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 1: Whisker has an interesting argument about de Mourier, and the 364 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: argument goes that de Mourier was providing an entertaining way 365 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: to interrogate gender representations, and that horror, being about power 366 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: relationships in society, was the perfect way for her to 367 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: do that. So women in horror, and at least until then, 368 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: had either been passive and vulnerable victims, or they are 369 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: depicted as fem fatales that threatened the boundaries of of 370 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: the home and of relationships. Okay, now, one claim about 371 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: horror is that the pleasure that we get it from it. 372 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: So the pleasurable terror of Mr James is when the 373 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: narrative provides closure and that the horror itself is destroyed 374 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: or contained again, so that the the idea that you 375 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: know you dispelled the horror before you go back out 376 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: into the real world. This re establishes the familiar for us, 377 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: and when the horror is disrupted, our security of self 378 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: in place can return. But female writers of horror are 379 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 1: unlikely to want to represent their own gender as being 380 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: either monstrous or somehow you know, naive, and they're not 381 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: gonna want to celebrate a return to a male empowered 382 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: status quo. So du Moier herself she wrote her stories 383 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: between World War One and World War Two. That's arguably 384 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: an error of conservative gender roles in England. Now and 385 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: Don't Look Now and other stories she seems to be 386 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: undermining the conservative vision of the role of the husband 387 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: and the father, and the story deconstructs this. Now, Whisker argues, actually, 388 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: if you've seen Rogues film, it is a feminist interpretation 389 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: of Little Red riding Hood and the reason why here 390 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: to give you an idea of the film. He uses 391 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: red in really powerful ways, and specifically a red macintosh 392 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: that both the daughter wears and then the dwarf wears 393 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: later on. So whenever you see the color red in 394 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 1: the film, it kind of fills you with dread. So 395 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: the story is purposely destabilizing. It makes you constantly uneasy. 396 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: It mis directs you away from the actual horror that's 397 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: going to come at the end of the film. For example, 398 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: when the story opens and we're very first introduced to 399 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: the old Lady twins, they're described jokingly by John as 400 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: male twins in drag who are definitely murderers. He's joking 401 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: around with his wife during dinner basically uh. And when 402 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: they meet the twins, they actually he introduced themselves. The 403 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: seer says, oh, hey, your daughter's ghost is sitting safely 404 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: between you, and John immediately feels as if he's immobilized 405 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: with terror, and he says, look, this is weird. Like 406 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: the idea that she's able to say that and see this, 407 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: even though I'm a rational man, I feel like this 408 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: is the end. There's no escape, there's no future. So 409 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: that gives you this idea of there's something cyclical going 410 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: on within this story and it's taking the power away 411 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: from him as the father. Now, Whisker implies that perhaps 412 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: the sisters themselves are the fates, and that the third 413 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,719 Speaker 1: fate is missing because she's the little female dwarf at 414 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: the end who kills John. That I've seen this movie 415 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: probably I don't know five or six times and read 416 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: the story. Never occurred to me. But it's an interesting 417 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: interpretation for sure. So uh. Throughout the story, John reassures 418 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: his wife, Look, Venice is totally safe. You don't need 419 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: to be worried. Because she starts worrying about these killings 420 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: that are going on around the town. He says, look, 421 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: let's just stick to logic. I'm going to deny the supernatural. 422 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: It doesn't exist. He rejects her feminine intuition of her emotions, 423 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: and he tries to re establish his sort of paternal 424 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: fantasy of control, which honestly he probably lost a little 425 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: bit of when his daughter died, so when he sees 426 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: this little girl in the hood running around Venice, he 427 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: wants to rescue her. He wants to reattain that uh. 428 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: And instead of needing protection, the hooded girl turns out 429 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: to be the monster who ultimately kills him. So you 430 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: can see there, d'amurier is doing the psychological here. She's 431 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: taking pretty much all of m. R. James tropes, but 432 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: she's turning them against the James z and idea of 433 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: the ghost story to examine gender roles. So I thought 434 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: that was an interesting take on the European sub genre 435 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: of ghost story. You know, she's she's doing something different 436 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: with it. She's using horror to its ends to sort 437 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: of expose something about culture and society, uh and at 438 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: the same time fill you with pleasing to error, as 439 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: James would call it. It's it's interesting to to look 440 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: at this as European storytellers who are conscious of the 441 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: properties of their own ghost traditions and then utilizing those 442 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: for social commentary and sort of to make sense of 443 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: the world around them. And in some of these examples 444 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: we're gonna look at you have the same thing going 445 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: on in other parts of the world, as colonial Europeans 446 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: go to some new land, encounter some new mode of 447 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: spirit traditions, and then they're they're either taking it. At 448 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: the very worst, I guess they're they're taking those and 449 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: just exploiting them, using them to create new stories for amusement. 450 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: But in the better scenarios, I think they're they're trying 451 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 1: to understand what they've gotten themselves into, what's going on 452 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: in this collision of cultures. Yeah, we're going to see 453 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: that time and again throughout the rest of the episode. 454 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: That's why I wanted to put Europe up at the 455 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: top here so we can sort of see it's a 456 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: little conservative instagi but it it has its own rules 457 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: set essentially. Uh, it would be interesting to see how 458 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: Mr james idea of the ghost story plays out across 459 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: other cultures. Alright, Well, on that note, let's head on 460 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: to Asia. All right. So I'm imagining we've got like 461 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: a big map of the world, and our little plane 462 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: is following a dotted line from from Venice to where 463 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: Hong Kong. Well, you know when I first when we 464 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: first sort of agreed to the the the outline for 465 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: this episode, I thought, oh, well, you know, there's so 466 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: many wonderful Chinese ghost stories, or there's so many wonderful 467 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: Japanese ghost stories, or hey, Thailand has a as a 468 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: rich tradition of of hauntings and ghosts. But instead I 469 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: find that we are going to wind up in Mongolia. 470 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: Oh okay, okay, all right, and it will involve Chinese ghosts. 471 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: But we're in Mongolia. So we all have cultural perceptions 472 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: of haunted houses, right, and it's such we have our 473 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: own cultural haunted house attractions, haunted attractions as they're called, 474 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: that speak to these expectations. Here in Atlanta, we have 475 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: an amazing one in the form of nether World. When 476 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: I was a kid in a rural Tennessee, there was 477 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: a there was one called scare Mayor that we all 478 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: called prayer Mayor because it was that it was hosted 479 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: by a local church a house. It was like a 480 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: hell house, light like a lower budget, like they didn't 481 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: have a lot of they didn't have the budget for 482 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: a lot of really heavy uh you know, religious overtones 483 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: that they were there probably explain what that is to 484 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: our audience. Huh. So a hell house is a thing 485 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: that's unique here in America, I think to the Southeast too. Uh. 486 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: That is a version of a haunted house attraction, but 487 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: it's heavily religious based and the ideas that as you 488 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: go through the room you will see like what the 489 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: punishments of hell will be like if you continue to 490 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: commit sins and then at the end you're hopefully saved. Yeah. 491 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: There's a wonderful documentary about this called called Hell House. Yeah, 492 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: it's quite Yeah. So Prayer Mayor or Scare Mayor that 493 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: I went to. It was a lower budget, but at 494 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: the end you would exit into a tent and some 495 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: and this preacher would would preach it right right. Yeah, 496 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: So various cult oral expectations are playing into that as well. Uh, 497 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: you know, I I do want to point out the good. 498 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: I believe there are some some Buddhist oriented hell houses 499 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: of a of a kind that you'll find in Asia 500 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: as well. Have you have you seen that movie The 501 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: Houses that October Built. It's uh, it's an okay found 502 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,479 Speaker 1: footage horror movie about people going around to various haunted 503 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 1: attractions trying to find the scariest one, and of course 504 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: whatever they find ends up being real. Are they just 505 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: traveling around in the US or it's in the US. Yeah, 506 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: they're in like a Winnebago. In fact, there's a sequel 507 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: coming out in like a month. Okay, Well, for for this, uh, 508 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: for this ghost story that we're about to get into, 509 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: I want you to uh to set aside your own 510 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: experiences with US haunted houses or even most Asian haunted houses, 511 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: because we are now going to ulan Bator, Mongolia, capital 512 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: of Mongolia. Okay, Now imagine yourself in Mongolia. You look 513 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: up at this bill board for a haunted attraction, and 514 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: it's illustrated with a pale face with bloody tears, and 515 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: the text reads as follows, though obviously in Mongolian instead 516 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: of English. Have you experienced ghosts from movies so far? 517 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: You have now the opportunity to experience them in person 518 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: by entering a scary haunted house. A family of Chinese 519 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: origins slaughtered each other for obscure reasons. They remain in 520 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: this haunted house while the house masters, who become ghostly corpses, 521 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: will serve you some tea that dead children will run 522 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: around you. That sounds great. I would definitely pay to 523 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: go do that. It does sound unique, Yeah, it sounds 524 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: it sounds rather different. It sounds better than another world 525 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: instead of like somebody with a fake chainsaws jumping owns Now, 526 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: there's are real chainsaws, don't have the chains on them. Okay, 527 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: good thing I didn't get my hand in there, alright. 528 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: So the really interesting thing here is this speaks to 529 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: a specifically Mongolian take on ghosts and hauntings, one in 530 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: which the ghosts of Chinese merchants, silken robed and long bearded, 531 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: haunt the places they buried their accumulated wealth, or near 532 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: where they bury their accumulated wealth, and they're they're haunting 533 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: the area seeking their gold or their belongings. They walk 534 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: in small steps and either speak in Chinese or with 535 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: a quote unquote funny Chinese accent. Okay, so you and 536 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: I have both spent time in China, but I haven't 537 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: been to Mongolia before, so I'm not quite sure what 538 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: the dialect sounds like they're yeah, or or more to 539 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: the point, what does a Chinese accent sound like a Mongolian. 540 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: That's that's something that's kind of beyond, perhaps beyond our 541 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: ability to really grasp. Yeah. Absolutely, Now this sounds like 542 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: a superstition that's loaded with cultural weight and perceptions of 543 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: other races and nationalities. Then you were absolutely correct. I 544 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: turned to a really insightful paper about it, this by 545 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: George dela Place out of Cambridge, and it was published 546 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: in the journal Inner Asia, titled Chinese Ghosts in Mongolian. 547 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: This is from two thousand ten. Now, dela Place describes 548 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: the haunted attraction. UH has these monster movie faces on 549 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: the wall. There's there's Russian furniture, as the Mongolians tend 550 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: to refer to it, of thoroughly non Mongolian home furnishings 551 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: influenced by European motifs. There's art on the walls that's UH, 552 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: you know, expressly Chinese. And then when the ghosts start 553 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: talking to the visitors to the Haunted Attraction through recordings 554 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: on headphones, they're speaking exclusively and untranslated Chinese, not Mongolian. Now, 555 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: one of the things you have to keep in mind 556 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: and processing all of this is UH, first of all, 557 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: the modern nature of Mongolia as a buffer state between 558 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: the Powers of Russia and the People's Republic of China, 559 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: despite its past status as as conquerors and kings of 560 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: both regions. The Mongolian Haunted House here that we're looking at, 561 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: it's defined by foreign influences You're not walking into a 562 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: haunted Mongolian house. You're walking into this this weird uh 563 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: you know, hybrid of Russia and Chinese influences. Yeah, Deela 564 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: place rights quote. Through the setting of this sitting room, 565 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: Chinese people appear as some sort of hyper foreigner whose 566 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: culture is imagined as a heterogeneous assemblage of typically non 567 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: Mongolian features Chinese language. Furthermore, perhaps one of the most 568 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: prominent items of Chinese culture to foreigners is seemingly meant 569 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: to be frightening in in and of itself to mongol ears. Okay, Now, 570 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: he notes that how this actually shook out is that 571 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: the the organizer of the haunted house essentially bought it 572 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: wholesale in China, and that's why the Chinese language is 573 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: there and it's untranslated. But it's believed that this ended 574 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: up working in its in its favor because again it 575 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: plays on an existing motif of Chinese ghosts. So they 576 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: bought a house and moved it to Mongolia. It's kind 577 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: of like here in the States, we have the haunted 578 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: attraction industry, and they have industry trade shows and you 579 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: can go by all these various set pieces. So essentially 580 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: the organizer bought a large portion of this as is 581 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: from somewhere in China, so it's not as as calculated 582 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: a move as as one might think, but it's still 583 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: again plays into an existing motif, and that again is 584 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: that is that you have these these Chinese ghosts in 585 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: Mongolian cities that have a quote notorious history of Chinese migration. Now, 586 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: this tradition emerges from a colonial past, yet also speaks 587 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: to the complications a mode of modern Mongolia and its 588 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: interactions with Chinese enterprise, and the ghosts are seen as 589 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: immigrant parasites, almost a sort of economic and cultural vampire. 590 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: All right, So we're immediately seeing how the culture of 591 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: Mongolia influences what their scare culture is essentially. Yeah, yeah, 592 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: I mean, and how their their past interactions with the 593 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: Chinese and areous racial racial stereotypes about about the Chinese, 594 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: how those factor into their haunt industry. And this this 595 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: is something that's not completely out of line with with 596 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: haunted attractions here in the States. There there have been 597 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: haunted attractions that have been criticized for leaning into racial 598 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: stereotypes as well. Yeah, I'm thinking of here in Georgio, 599 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: we have like haunted hair rides around Atlanta that you 600 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: can go do where you you know, you ride through 601 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: a corn field essentially, and again people with fake chainsaws 602 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: or maybe real chinsaws jump out of the corn at 603 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: you and spook you. So we have this idea of 604 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: the Chinese merchant ghost in Mongolia, and it's it's it's 605 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: excessively far and it's difficult to actually banish these ghosts, 606 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: in large part because the the basic idea here is 607 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: that they average Mongolian doesn't really understand how this how 608 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: the Chinese think, how the sort of stereotypical Chinese merchant thinks, 609 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: and therefore it's difficult to communicate with them, difficult to 610 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: try and banish them. Now you have variations on this 611 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: ghost story. For instance, you have ghosts of war, particularly 612 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 1: of the Mongolian struggle for independence in the twentieth century. 613 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: This would have been the Mongolian Revolution of ninety one, 614 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: in which the Soviet Red Army backed the overthrow of 615 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: the Russian White Guard. These were anti communist forces and 616 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: also into the Chinese occupation of Mongolia, which had been 617 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: going on since nineteen nineteen. Now, Mongolia remained a Soviet 618 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: satellite state until around nineteen so we're talking, so we're 619 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: so we're talking wandering ghost store soldiers here, a ghost general, 620 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But mostly it's Chinese merchant ghosts 621 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 1: that you hear ghost stories about in Mongolia. And I 622 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: think that's rather telling. It forces you to ask the question, 623 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: are the scars of economic colonial exploitation even more traumatic 624 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: than those of actual warfare, actual actual bloodshed, especially when 625 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: you consider to like the push and pull of capitalism 626 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: versus communism in that region. Yeah? Yeah, indeed. So I'm 627 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: gonna roll through just some examples of this kind of 628 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: ghost story of from Mongolia. Uh, and these are all 629 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: related in Della Places article. So there's the ghost of 630 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: a Chinese man who becomes rich transporting water via horse cart, 631 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: and one day he's knocked off his horse cart, he's injured, 632 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: and he dies, and he comes back to haunt his 633 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: former home in sorch of his search of his horse, 634 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: his cart, and his money. And this takes place in 635 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. He goes around saying, where is my 636 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: water carrying horse cart? Have my two powerful pure bred 637 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: horse has been stolen and eaten? I know where I 638 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: have put my gold? Okay, So it's Ultimately it's like 639 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: about the money. Yeah, that's fascinating, and I wonder too 640 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: how much possess Yeah, I wonder how much too that 641 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: has to do then with um poverty in the region 642 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: as well, there's a definite economic factor. Del Plus argues. 643 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: This seems to be the case with the story that 644 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: I have from Africa that we'll talk about. Yeah, I 645 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: think we both found that in seeking on examples from 646 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 1: emory every continent, it was impossible to avoid like post 647 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: colonial trauma or anxiety. Alright, So another one, this is 648 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: from a a haunted courtyard in uh Ulan, Bator, and 649 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: this is haunted again by the ghost of a Chinese man. 650 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: This one, in particular, became rich running a restaurant in 651 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, and it was said that when he died, 652 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: his soul took refuge in his money. Now, this individual 653 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: was supposedly fully integrated into Mongolian society, and so he 654 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 1: did not receive a proper Chinese funeral, thus the haunting. 655 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: In this particular ghost story, they tried a Buddhist ceremony 656 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: to drive the spirit away. It didn't work. The current 657 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: owner of the property he lost his temper. He throws 658 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: some coins out into the courtyard and he lambasts the 659 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: ghost with a racial slur. Yeah, and this causes the 660 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: ghost to leave. But then the owner has to do 661 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: this every night to keep the ghost away. And this 662 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: a story from around two thousand and three. And the 663 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: ghost in this scenario is just heard to say, hey, 664 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 1: my money, Hey my money. Wow. Yeah. I I don't 665 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: know that I've necessarily maybe I'm missing something here, audience, 666 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: But I can't think of a Western example of this 667 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: that's so heavily uh embedded in economics. Yeah, the economics 668 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: are kid here because Delpha's points out that this is 669 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: this is a typical scenario, not the ghost part, but 670 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: the business aspect of it. Here, during the Qing dynasty, 671 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 1: this is the last imperial dynasty of China ended in uh, 672 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: you would see Chinese owned businesses in Mongolia and it 673 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,359 Speaker 1: involved a China based owner and a Chinese manager who 674 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: owned a stake in the in the business and spent 675 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: a large portion of his time on site in Mongolia. Seasonally. 676 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: They would often take a Mongolian name, and despite a 677 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: law against it, they might take a Mongolian wife and 678 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: start a family there, even if they had a family 679 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: back in line as well, and economically they had an 680 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: advantage over locals, and they operated a harsh credit policy 681 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 1: on the Mongolians. And when there were revolts against cheeing 682 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: occupat occupation, they often took their anger out in these 683 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: Chinese businesses and thieves that that hit these businesses. They 684 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: had a robin hood kind of charm among the locals. Okay, 685 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: So I'm I'm trying to understand this from our American 686 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: Western perspective. It sounds like what some people refer to 687 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 1: derisively here in America as a carpetbagger. So somebody who 688 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: is not from a region moves to that region and 689 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,399 Speaker 1: then is like economically successful, but doesn't uh give that 690 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: money or or in some cases political influence back to 691 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 1: the community. They keep it for themselves or bring it 692 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: back to their home. Yeah. The idea here is that 693 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: even though this merchant, this overseer of the business would 694 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: have to a certain extent immerse themselves in the local culture, 695 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: they were still seen by others as to the parasite, 696 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: ascetic arm of of Chinese interests. So we're left with 697 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: this idea. This this really just ultimately gross stereotype that 698 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: Chinese people are so stingy, again a stereotype brought on 699 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,919 Speaker 1: by economic policies of the time, that they came back 700 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: as ghosts even if there had been no violent tragedy, 701 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: which is generally the rule for Mongolian ghost traditions. It's 702 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: also a general practice for an elderly Mongolian man to 703 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: distribute his belongings among his children before he dies, though 704 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: they might have a prize possession that serves as a 705 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: quote unquote refuge thing that might need to be buried 706 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: to avoid haunting. So you have like a Mongolian grandfather, 707 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 1: he's tended to most of his estate and handed it 708 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: off getting ready for death. But say he had a 709 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: favorite soup bowl that he used, Well, that might be 710 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: a thing. You know, it has no real value particularly, 711 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,240 Speaker 1: but it's valuable enough to him that his his ghost 712 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: might haunt it, and you have to deal with that. 713 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: And idea here is that they saw the Chinese, that 714 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: the kind of people that their soul would get caught 715 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: up in virtually everything they owned, all their possessions, all 716 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 1: their money that they were. They view them as that materialistic. 717 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: And of course you also have to think in all 718 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: of this about like the just cultural differences between the 719 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: Mongolian and the Chinese. The Mongolians traditionally had a nomadic culture, 720 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,399 Speaker 1: uh that they would move around, they would be able 721 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: to pick up and go, whereas the Chinese culture was 722 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: more set in one place. So thinking back to m 723 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 1: R James's rules, it seems like they're adhering to at 724 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: least one of them in that there's like an antique object, 725 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: right that seems to be the like center point for 726 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: the ghost, and somebody discovering this object or touching it 727 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: or whatever triggers the plot of the haunting. Yeah, but 728 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: I think the Mongolian version here is that, yes, that's 729 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: the way it should work in a traditional Mongolian ghost story. 730 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: But they're saying that these Chinese merchants, they are so 731 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: greedy that that they're they're ghost. It just caught gets 732 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: caught up in every material thing that they own and 733 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: every shred of their money. So Double Place sums it 734 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: up as follows. Quote. Chinese ghosts are frightening because they 735 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: bridge a collective memory of past colonial exploitation and a 736 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:19,360 Speaker 1: present concern about migration. They picture present day Chinese migrants 737 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: not as new businessmen but merely as returning colonial merchants 738 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: as current instances of an ongoing parasitic relationship. That is 739 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: very interesting. Yeah, I know, you know, Asian ghost stories 740 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: have become more popular over here in the last fifteen years, 741 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: maybe you know obviously Ringo or Jewan stuff like that, 742 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: but I can't think of any Chinese examples off the 743 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 1: top of my head, and I wonder, oh, well, there 744 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:50,439 Speaker 1: was there was one that came out a fe years 745 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 1: back that I keep meaning to watch titled h was 746 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: it called Riga Mortis. Oh, I've seen Riga Mortis. It's 747 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 1: a Cantonese language film. That's yeah, that's a cool movie. Um, 748 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: I don't remember necessarily at having this economic aspect. Oh no, 749 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 1: I don't think that it necessarily did. Yeah, yeah, I 750 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: mean really for it would be I guess it would 751 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: be interesting and probably uncomfortable to watch a Mongolian horror 752 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: movie based around like a kind of an obscene stereotype 753 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: like this, Yeah, totally. I mean, it would be interesting 754 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: from a sort of anthropological standpoint. But uh, this is 755 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: what definitely a case where the ghost story reveals a 756 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,959 Speaker 1: lot of unpleasant things about a relationship between two people's Well, 757 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: why don't we take a break and when we get back, 758 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,760 Speaker 1: we can take our little dotted line airplane to Malawi 759 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: in Africa and explore something similar. Alright, we're back, We've 760 00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 1: hit Europe and we've hit Asia. What's next Africa? And 761 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: I was excited because I anticipated that there was just 762 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: going to be this like plethora of great African ghost 763 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: stories available, right uh, And I had the hardest time 764 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 1: finding anything. What's interesting is that despite Africa having a 765 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 1: rich mythological folklore as well as many different belief systems 766 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,439 Speaker 1: about the afterlife, almost all the ghost stories per se 767 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: that are available are post colonial. So to me, this 768 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 1: meant that there is still some kind of Eurocentric thing 769 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: that's being worked off of the same literary system, going 770 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: back to our European example and Mr James there, and 771 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: I was looking for something to be a little different 772 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,359 Speaker 1: than that. So there's lots of ghost stories that are 773 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: in South Africa, for instance, but I couldn't find any 774 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: that we're from before Dutch or British colonization. So then 775 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: I considered, well, maybe I should turn to the Middle 776 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: East instead. There's a rich ghost story tradition there that 777 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: goes back to a thousand and one nights, but one 778 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: real life story kept coming up over and over again 779 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 1: in my search, and so I decided to have this 780 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: be the one that I shared. This is from two 781 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: thousand five. In Malawi, it was widely reported that the 782 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: then president bingu Wa muth Rika had fled his three 783 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,439 Speaker 1: hundred room palace because he believed that it was haunted. Now, 784 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 1: two journalists quoted his religious advisor, Reverend Milani and Tonga, 785 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,880 Speaker 1: as saying that muther Rika had summoned religious leaders there 786 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:35,719 Speaker 1: specifically to exercise evil spirits. A third journalist reported that 787 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 1: muther Rika had sensed invisible rodents crawling all over him 788 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: at night. So when this came out publicly, muth Rika 789 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,320 Speaker 1: was not happy about it, and he totally denied it 790 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,759 Speaker 1: and he said, I have not seen any ghosts yet. 791 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: I have never in my life been afraid of ghosts. 792 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 1: It's important a note here too. He is Roman Catholic, 793 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: was Roman Catholic, so he had this strange maybe not 794 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: strange if you're from Malawi, but he was integrating Roman 795 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 1: Catholic religious beliefs with the sort of traditional cultural beliefs 796 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: from that area. Oh yeah, and this this is this 797 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: a trend we see time and time again. Yeah, so 798 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 1: police officials actually arrested two of these journalists and they 799 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 1: drove them three miles to a police station and then 800 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: charged them with a statute that made it illegal to 801 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: ridicule the president. Uh. This obviously recalled a less democratic 802 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: past for that nation, really worried people about what his 803 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 1: relationship with the freedom of the press was going to be. 804 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: The nation's top prosecutor at the time said that the 805 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: stories that they had written were too irresponsible to ignore 806 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: and that he was going to pursue a criminal conviction 807 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 1: that would place them in prison for up to two years. Now, 808 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: it sounds like what ended up happening was they were 809 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 1: released on bail shortly afterwards. So I think this was 810 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: kind of like a warning shot for the press in Malawi. Now. 811 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,400 Speaker 1: It turns out though Malawi has a history of ghost 812 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 1: stories in its state houses. So the first head of State, 813 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: Hastings Kamuzu Banda, said that he was regularly visited by 814 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: mysterious dwarves at the san Jica Palace. Yeah, what is 815 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: up with these ghost dwarves? Uh and his successor, Buck 816 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:23,319 Speaker 1: Kelly Muluzi also suspected that there were spirits there. So 817 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,879 Speaker 1: the former press officer for one of those administrations said, look, 818 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,880 Speaker 1: no one could sleep at that presidential residence, so we 819 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,799 Speaker 1: we ended up moving to another one. So I'm reading this, 820 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: I'm going, what's going on here? This is an article 821 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: in the New York Times from two thousand five, something 822 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: strange is up. According to the then editor of Malawi's newspaper, 823 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 1: which is called The Chronicle, ghosts and spirits are understood 824 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: to be a part of everyday reality in Malawi and 825 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: it was not a taboo subject. And he was surprised 826 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: that the president reacted this way. That when The New 827 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,279 Speaker 1: York Times reported it, they said, in many parts of 828 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: Sub Saharan Africa tried aditional superstitions coexist seamlessly with modern sensibilities. 829 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,960 Speaker 1: Now I found an example of one. This isn't a 830 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: ghost per se, but I thought this was worth noting 831 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: because it's especially upsetting. So I couldn't find anything about ghosts. 832 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,000 Speaker 1: But it turns out that in Malawi, albinos are a 833 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:21,719 Speaker 1: valuable commodity for their body parts. Uh They're often trafficked 834 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: across borders for use in witchcraft rituals. So basically the 835 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 1: idea is that the body parts of albinos are said 836 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,880 Speaker 1: to bring riches, success, power or sexual conquest. Uh. And 837 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,840 Speaker 1: the mutilated bodies of albinos are found later on, without 838 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: their hands, their feet, their breasts, their genitals, their skin, 839 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 1: sometimes their eyes or their hair. So this is real 840 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:48,800 Speaker 1: life horror going on home, but it's something that's broadly understood. Now. 841 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:53,240 Speaker 1: The ghost thing is interesting. Was this simply about saving 842 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,400 Speaker 1: face because muther Rika didn't like that he looked scared 843 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:02,360 Speaker 1: to a global audience. The country Information Minister actually claimed 844 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 1: that the president was totally unaware of the arrests of 845 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 1: these journalists before they happened. He wasn't responsible for them necessarily. 846 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,080 Speaker 1: Then Tonga reversed and said, oh no, no, no, I 847 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,440 Speaker 1: all those quotes about me saying that the president was 848 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 1: worried about spirits being in his palace, that that's not 849 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,319 Speaker 1: true at all. He doesn't believe in charms. So there's 850 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 1: clearly some kind of spin doctoring going on here. So 851 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 1: what's up with this haunted building? First of all, like, 852 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: why have three presidents in Malawi UH supposedly seen ghosts there? Well, 853 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,400 Speaker 1: it turns out that it is a one hundred million 854 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: dollar mansion that was erected in Malawi under Banda. That's 855 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 1: the first president while his nation was undergoing appalling poverty. 856 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,760 Speaker 1: This place has three hundred rooms, two helipads, a game 857 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,080 Speaker 1: park in a banquet room for six hundred people. His 858 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,840 Speaker 1: successor called it obscene opulence. And when the government you know, 859 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,040 Speaker 1: got ahold of it later on, they said, maybe you 860 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: should just turn this into a five star hotel, Like 861 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 1: it just looks really bad when the leader of the 862 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,520 Speaker 1: country lives here. When muther Rika was elected, the place 863 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,239 Speaker 1: was in total disrepair. So he had it renovated and 864 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 1: then he moved in and said, look, it's actually going 865 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 1: to cut costs if I live here rather than this 866 00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:20,680 Speaker 1: other palace in this other city. Now what I'm wondering 867 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: here maybe these ghost stories that are going on and 868 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 1: again these are real stories. This isn't this is an 869 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,560 Speaker 1: m R James telling a story of a learned gentleman. 870 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 1: This is the actual president of a nation who seems 871 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,840 Speaker 1: to be seeing ghosts in his home. Uh, maybe there 872 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,280 Speaker 1: are manifestations of the presidential guilt over living in such 873 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,920 Speaker 1: opulence while the citizenry goes poor. So I did a 874 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,759 Speaker 1: little bit more digging to learn about muther Rika. He 875 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 1: passed away in in and the Guardians obituary starts off 876 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,040 Speaker 1: by saying he went from being one of Africa's most 877 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,840 Speaker 1: respected leaders to a repressive despot in just two years. 878 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 1: So it seems like and that was right. So two 879 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,360 Speaker 1: thousand five was towards the beginning of his time and 880 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:08,799 Speaker 1: power there. So it seems like this is a guy 881 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,879 Speaker 1: He had previously been a loans officer at the World Bank. 882 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,240 Speaker 1: Then he became a dictator afterwards, and when the global 883 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,880 Speaker 1: recession reached Malawi in two thousand ten, he actually responded violently. 884 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,520 Speaker 1: He curtailed civil liberties. Protesters of his presidency were shot 885 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,040 Speaker 1: dead by the police there, and he was criticized for 886 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: purchasing a thirteen million dollar private jet for himself just 887 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 1: before this. So he died in two thousand twelve from 888 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,880 Speaker 1: a heart attack. Couldn't find a ton more about this. 889 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,399 Speaker 1: I would love it if our listeners who out there 890 00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,719 Speaker 1: no way more about Malawi than we do, could chime in. 891 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,200 Speaker 1: But it seems to me from Afar looking at this, 892 00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,640 Speaker 1: that there's some kind of again post colonial guilt, right 893 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,640 Speaker 1: like he seemed Mutherrika seemed to be this guy who 894 00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,360 Speaker 1: had traveled around the world and had a Western education 895 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:59,040 Speaker 1: and came back and was successful and rich and powerful, 896 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:03,400 Speaker 1: and yet the people were still poor, and we're upset 897 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,560 Speaker 1: at him for these choices he made, living in this 898 00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 1: huge mansion, buying this private jet, all this stuff, and 899 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: they reacted to it poorly. But maybe his subconscious was 900 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,480 Speaker 1: also reacting to it poorly, and also his predecessors. Clearly 901 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 1: they all had the same weird ghost guilt going on. 902 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,439 Speaker 1: And of course, one of the things about a ghost story, 903 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,480 Speaker 1: even like this, of course, is that it becomes the 904 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,840 Speaker 1: property of all those who tell it. It becomes the 905 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,759 Speaker 1: property of of outsiders looking in as well as the 906 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,960 Speaker 1: local residents and the people that that that lived and 907 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,439 Speaker 1: perhaps suffered under him. So it can be a way 908 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,640 Speaker 1: to to understand or better understand what has happened. Yeah, 909 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,000 Speaker 1: now my understanding is you encountered somewhat of a similar 910 00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,719 Speaker 1: thing when you looked at Australia's ghost stories. Certainly, when 911 00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:50,919 Speaker 1: it comes to that the the idea of like two 912 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,640 Speaker 1: different cultural traditions coming together and creating kind of a 913 00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,680 Speaker 1: hybrid belief system, which is certainly what I was expecting, 914 00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,919 Speaker 1: uh from US Astralia, because you obviously have a rich 915 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:08,960 Speaker 1: Aboriginal tradition that involves spirit realm and spirits walking among us. 916 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,640 Speaker 1: And then you have the European traditions that are brought 917 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,160 Speaker 1: there with the colonial influence, uh and the you know, 918 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,080 Speaker 1: the the Western Australians. So it seems like, I mean, 919 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,120 Speaker 1: it's we we have a lot of fiction out there, 920 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,640 Speaker 1: some cinematic where we see, uh, these traditional values of 921 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,799 Speaker 1: the Aboriginal people kind of melding with European expectations, or 922 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: it's Europeans telling stories about Aboriginal spiritualism. Okay, so there's 923 00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:40,160 Speaker 1: certainly Australian ghost stories, but it looks like you've got 924 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,520 Speaker 1: a book here that you turn to. So there's actual 925 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:47,200 Speaker 1: research on this tradition, right. There are two authors in particular, 926 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,480 Speaker 1: Kim Gelder and Jane M. Jacobs that came up a 927 00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,719 Speaker 1: couple of times. They wrote a book titled Uncanny Australia, 928 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,919 Speaker 1: Sacredness and Identity and a post Colonial Nation. Uh. It's 929 00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,640 Speaker 1: really really excellent book. Check it out if you want 930 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,439 Speaker 1: to explore more on this topic. But I was reading 931 00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:07,600 Speaker 1: an article they wrote titled the post Colonial ghost Story, 932 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,640 Speaker 1: in which the authors point out that one encounters a 933 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:15,520 Speaker 1: form of of postcolonial racism in Australia and which Aboriginal 934 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,279 Speaker 1: people are seen as lacking in some areas, uh you know, 935 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:24,520 Speaker 1: such as uh wealth and access to various uh you know, 936 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,799 Speaker 1: properties of the modern society. But then they're also seen 937 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,560 Speaker 1: is is having too much in other areas. In other words, 938 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:35,320 Speaker 1: they have they have certain rights pertaining to sacred lands 939 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:39,600 Speaker 1: that sometimes rubs the uh you know, the the western 940 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,400 Speaker 1: modern Australia the wrong way. Right. Yeah, Well, we have 941 00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:45,880 Speaker 1: a similar thing here in the States with the Native people. 942 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,879 Speaker 1: Is here their sacred lands and then oh jeez, with 943 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,160 Speaker 1: the whole history of those people being relegated to reservations 944 00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,320 Speaker 1: or places that aren't actually their homes. Yeah, I think it. 945 00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:01,800 Speaker 1: It matches up with a lot of of surviving tensions 946 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:06,799 Speaker 1: between native peoples and colonial powers. And Gelder and Jacobs 947 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,920 Speaker 1: say the following about it. Quote in this climate, Aborigines 948 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,920 Speaker 1: certainly continue to receive sympathy for what they do not 949 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,080 Speaker 1: have good health, adequate housing and so on. And yet 950 00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: at the same time they draw resentment from white Australians 951 00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,520 Speaker 1: because they seem to be claiming more than their quote 952 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:27,320 Speaker 1: fair share. Still there's this expected exchange of beliefs and superstitions. 953 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,880 Speaker 1: The Europeans, for their part, incorporated bits of local feklore 954 00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,840 Speaker 1: folklore into their own stories and of course borrowed and 955 00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,480 Speaker 1: westernized aspects of it for their own fiction. Meanwhile, is 956 00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,600 Speaker 1: Philip A. Clark writes in his two thousand seven folklore 957 00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:45,600 Speaker 1: paper Indigenous Spirit and Ghost Folklore of Settled Australia. Modern 958 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,719 Speaker 1: Aboriginal people are in many cases less familiar with the 959 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,960 Speaker 1: complex creation myths of their people, but cling to hybrid 960 00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,400 Speaker 1: beliefs that sprang up in the wake of colonialism. And 961 00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,480 Speaker 1: it's this fits with what we've talked about before on 962 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:04,440 Speaker 1: the show, uh, involving cargo cults, the idea that you 963 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:08,760 Speaker 1: you ultimately have to find some sort of hybrid creation 964 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,320 Speaker 1: of culture in many cases in order to survive culturally. 965 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,440 Speaker 1: Like you you you were just going to be plowed 966 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:20,400 Speaker 1: over by these intimidating colonial forces in many cases unless 967 00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,440 Speaker 1: you find this common ground, uh, this kind of cultural 968 00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,360 Speaker 1: survival tactic. Yeah, I'm thinking back on our episode about 969 00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,600 Speaker 1: the Serpent and the Rainbow, and uh, the whole idea 970 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,880 Speaker 1: that like certain kinds of voodoo cultures are an integration 971 00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:40,440 Speaker 1: of local mysticism with like Roman Catholicism. For instance. Okay, now, 972 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,280 Speaker 1: out of these hybrid beliefs that the hybrid ghost stories 973 00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:48,240 Speaker 1: that emerge. Uh Guelder and Jacobs argue in their book 974 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,400 Speaker 1: that these Australian ghost stories are not so much about possession, 975 00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,520 Speaker 1: such as the owning or acquiring of a haunted house 976 00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:58,719 Speaker 1: or a haunted object, but they're about dispossession. Now specifically, 977 00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:02,439 Speaker 1: some of the Aboriginal motifs that are that are still 978 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,080 Speaker 1: represented in these hyper belief systems. You have this idea 979 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:07,719 Speaker 1: that there are just a lot of spirits and that 980 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:12,160 Speaker 1: one kind of lives uh among them. Many of these 981 00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:16,000 Speaker 1: spirits have have humanoid qualities to them, and there are 982 00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:21,439 Speaker 1: also traditions of like little people and sourcers, shape shifters, uh, etcetera. 983 00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:26,280 Speaker 1: Uh Now. Clark writes that the Aboriginal people also believe 984 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,600 Speaker 1: that there was a powerful element of the human spirit 985 00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,760 Speaker 1: that for most individuals lay dormant in them throughout their lives, 986 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,400 Speaker 1: and this was called the prupy and belief in this 987 00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,600 Speaker 1: still lingers to this day, sometimes as an opponent, potent 988 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,440 Speaker 1: aspect of the self that may be called upon as 989 00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,200 Speaker 1: a living spirit or helper in order to you know, 990 00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:48,520 Speaker 1: protect yourself or attack someone. Now agopa, however, is the 991 00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,680 Speaker 1: spirit of its deceased person and operates much like a 992 00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:56,279 Speaker 1: ghost in other traditions. A goopa, while disruptive, will eventually 993 00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,680 Speaker 1: quote come to rest with the old people. And these 994 00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,400 Speaker 1: are differ and from the sort of evil spirits, the 995 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,440 Speaker 1: bad spirits kind of demons that exist in Aboriginal belief 996 00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,879 Speaker 1: systems as well. Okay, so there's a complex afterlife, believe them. Yeah, 997 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,040 Speaker 1: but they do have something that is a lot like 998 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:17,520 Speaker 1: the Western ghost and therefore melds well with the colonial 999 00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,200 Speaker 1: ideas of what a ghost should be now and and 1000 00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,720 Speaker 1: for that reason, belief and goopa press persists, and Clark 1001 00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:29,600 Speaker 1: points out that massacre sites and missions are frequent haunts. Uh. 1002 00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:31,800 Speaker 1: This is they'll love this as a dog owner, that 1003 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,840 Speaker 1: dogs can often see these spirits when we cannot, and 1004 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,960 Speaker 1: you can see them too, perhaps if you get right 1005 00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,760 Speaker 1: behind your dog and you stare through the space between 1006 00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,280 Speaker 1: the dogs ears. Okay, yeah, this actually came up in 1007 00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,919 Speaker 1: multiple cultures, the idea because you get the dogs who 1008 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,200 Speaker 1: just kind of stare off into space weirdly and you're 1009 00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,040 Speaker 1: not quite sure what they're looking at. Yeah, and multiple 1010 00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,439 Speaker 1: cultures the idea is that, oh, well, they can see 1011 00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,160 Speaker 1: the dead. Yeah, clearly they're they're seeing something that is 1012 00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:04,040 Speaker 1: hidden from us. Now, even today, when a goopa is 1013 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:08,320 Speaker 1: spotted the Aboriginal community, they have to discuss the revalence 1014 00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,160 Speaker 1: of the sighting, what does it mean, why is it occurring, 1015 00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,840 Speaker 1: and particularly how is it linked to any recent conflict 1016 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:20,320 Speaker 1: or tension concerning local Aboriginal affairs. Now, so this is 1017 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,320 Speaker 1: this is rather important here, I think, because essentially you're 1018 00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:28,160 Speaker 1: seeing um the idea that sightings, ghost sightings lead to 1019 00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:32,440 Speaker 1: community discussions. Uh so you might have a ghost that 1020 00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,040 Speaker 1: props that pops up because of a suicide, because of 1021 00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:38,680 Speaker 1: a death that is somehow connected to drug addiction. So 1022 00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,240 Speaker 1: you have you have deaths that are occurring due to 1023 00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:47,000 Speaker 1: societal problems within the Aboriginal community. And then if the 1024 00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:50,920 Speaker 1: ghost decided, then the community must discuss the problem. So 1025 00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,480 Speaker 1: it becomes a reason to have these important discussions about 1026 00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,880 Speaker 1: real world issues. So it's sort of a manifestation of 1027 00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:04,680 Speaker 1: the communities unconscious, right, and like these are maybe societal 1028 00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,200 Speaker 1: things that they need to discuss, but they don't realize 1029 00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,240 Speaker 1: they need to discuss them until this person dies and 1030 00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:13,760 Speaker 1: then their spirit starts haunting, right. Yeah, and you know 1031 00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:15,520 Speaker 1: when you get into you can also get into the 1032 00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:17,720 Speaker 1: whole question of well what are people Are the people 1033 00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,080 Speaker 1: actually seeing something are they just making it up as 1034 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,080 Speaker 1: some sort of psychological affair. I mean, there there's so 1035 00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:26,600 Speaker 1: many different interpretations of what could be happening. A call 1036 00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,160 Speaker 1: back to our Will of the Whisp episode from a 1037 00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:32,440 Speaker 1: year two ago, there are some who think that the 1038 00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:36,120 Speaker 1: initial group of sighting could be connected to some sort 1039 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,480 Speaker 1: of Will of the Whisp phenomenon, but you know, it 1040 00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,400 Speaker 1: could be any number of things. It could be hallucination, 1041 00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:45,680 Speaker 1: trick of the eye, whatever it is, something something strikes 1042 00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,960 Speaker 1: an individual as being ghostly, and then they can connect 1043 00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,120 Speaker 1: it to some sort of tragic event in the community 1044 00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:54,040 Speaker 1: and then bring it forward as a discussion. Wow. So 1045 00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,080 Speaker 1: this is actually like an extension of what I was 1046 00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,280 Speaker 1: talking about earlier with just horror stories in general, that 1047 00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,680 Speaker 1: they're ref flective of cultural issues. But they're taking it 1048 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:06,400 Speaker 1: a step further and saying like, Okay, this is reflective 1049 01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,360 Speaker 1: of issues that we're dealing with. Now we need to 1050 01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,560 Speaker 1: address those issues as a group. Now. I know we 1051 01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:15,880 Speaker 1: have a number of Australian Australian listeners, we have some 1052 01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:18,760 Speaker 1: some Kiwi listeners, as well. So I would love to 1053 01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,400 Speaker 1: hear from you. If you have specific ghost stories that 1054 01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,800 Speaker 1: you think reveal something about about culture in your neck 1055 01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:26,760 Speaker 1: of the woods, let us know. I would love to 1056 01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:29,480 Speaker 1: hear from you. So let's take one more break, and 1057 01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,640 Speaker 1: when we get back, we're going to head over to 1058 01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:38,960 Speaker 1: South America. Alright, So we're turning to South America now, uh, 1059 01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:41,920 Speaker 1: and then we'll end with North America, which is probably 1060 01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,160 Speaker 1: what you and I are most familiar with and most 1061 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:46,800 Speaker 1: of our audience is most familiar with. So would you 1062 01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:50,280 Speaker 1: find in South America? Is it pretty common in terms 1063 01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:52,360 Speaker 1: of are are we finding yet another example of the 1064 01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,360 Speaker 1: post colonial uh influence on ghosts? There is, there's definitely 1065 01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:59,800 Speaker 1: a post colonial influence, But this tradition I think is 1066 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:04,040 Speaker 1: more revealing about pre colonial um beliefs in this case 1067 01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:08,640 Speaker 1: because it concerns a particular native people. So for this one, 1068 01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,880 Speaker 1: I turned to a really captivating paper titled Three Days 1069 01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,800 Speaker 1: for Weeping Dreams, Emotions and Death in the Peruvian Amazon 1070 01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,640 Speaker 1: by Glenn Shephard, published a two thousand two in Medical 1071 01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:24,320 Speaker 1: Anthropology Quarterly. And this is one of those you know, 1072 01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,040 Speaker 1: this is one of those papers. But we read a 1073 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,520 Speaker 1: lot of different academic papers for this show, and this 1074 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:32,840 Speaker 1: is one of those that managed to weave together a 1075 01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:37,400 Speaker 1: personal story with anthropological commentary, uh in a way that 1076 01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,280 Speaker 1: just really worked. Yeah, that's pretty rare in the stuff 1077 01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:43,960 Speaker 1: that we read, but I'm thinking of like ethnographies tend 1078 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:49,640 Speaker 1: to have more allowance for like a subjective narrative to 1079 01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:53,360 Speaker 1: be inserted among their observations. So it's certainly far less 1080 01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:56,760 Speaker 1: common and say, you know, archaeological paper, but but this 1081 01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:59,680 Speaker 1: one just has really captivated me as it really stood 1082 01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:03,800 Speaker 1: apart from from even other excellent papers I've said. So. 1083 01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:09,120 Speaker 1: Shephard worked among the Matsa Genka of Peru in the 1084 01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:13,040 Speaker 1: late nineteen eighties. Now the Matsagenka they're an indigenous people 1085 01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:18,040 Speaker 1: of the Amazon Basin jungle regions of southeastern Peru, and 1086 01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,920 Speaker 1: his paper kicks off with an account of a local 1087 01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:25,240 Speaker 1: woman who suffered uterine bleeding, which was said to have 1088 01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:28,560 Speaker 1: begun one day quote when she heard an unknown voice 1089 01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:31,240 Speaker 1: calling to her while she was working alone in the 1090 01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:35,160 Speaker 1: family garden. Pain and nightmares followed, and in it he 1091 01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:37,240 Speaker 1: ended up convincing her to hey, let me bring you 1092 01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:39,920 Speaker 1: in for medical treatment. So he took her on this 1093 01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:44,720 Speaker 1: long journey they encountered numerous complications, so travel delays. Her 1094 01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,680 Speaker 1: being unaccustomed to modern medical exams, even encountered a problem 1095 01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:53,440 Speaker 1: where they ran into a traveling medicine Ginka shaman, and 1096 01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,520 Speaker 1: this perved stressful for as well because he was from 1097 01:02:56,560 --> 01:03:00,440 Speaker 1: another group and was therefore considered something of a warlock 1098 01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:04,880 Speaker 1: like they were. There was this ingrain um suspicion of 1099 01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,240 Speaker 1: shamans from other groups of the same people. So I'm 1100 01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,040 Speaker 1: imagining she like sensed a lot of just kind of 1101 01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:13,600 Speaker 1: bad energy in general with this journey. Yeah, and you 1102 01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:16,920 Speaker 1: know she's she's quite ill and h and ends up 1103 01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:20,760 Speaker 1: ends up dying now, but but it ends up. He 1104 01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:24,080 Speaker 1: uses this as a way to to further analyze what's 1105 01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,400 Speaker 1: going on with the Metsa Genka people and uh and 1106 01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:31,680 Speaker 1: what their beliefs reveal about their about their their customs 1107 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,520 Speaker 1: and their view of death and bereavement. Now, the bat 1108 01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:38,520 Speaker 1: Metsagenka believe in spirits, and there are two varieties of 1109 01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:43,400 Speaker 1: note and they both have simple similar wording. So on 1110 01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,800 Speaker 1: one hand you have the Kama Guarini, these are the 1111 01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:52,000 Speaker 1: bringers of death. Now, these are evil spirits, essentially demons 1112 01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:56,800 Speaker 1: that seduce and or sexually assault matsagenka people resulting in 1113 01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:01,440 Speaker 1: illness or death. H Shepherd writes that the medicine geeker 1114 01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:05,040 Speaker 1: are generally a sex positive bunch, but they frown upon 1115 01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:09,520 Speaker 1: what they see as deviant sexuality or obsessive sexuality, and 1116 01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:13,320 Speaker 1: uh the kama guarini may may punish this, and they're 1117 01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:18,960 Speaker 1: defined by perversions of diet, sexuality and social behavior. So 1118 01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,680 Speaker 1: in this story of the the young woman who was suffering, uh, 1119 01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:25,080 Speaker 1: the ideas that she they thought that she had been 1120 01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:30,280 Speaker 1: attacked by a kama guarini. Now the second variety is 1121 01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:34,000 Speaker 1: a comet serie, which means dead person. And these are 1122 01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,520 Speaker 1: more traditional ghosts in some respects. These are the spirits 1123 01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,200 Speaker 1: of the dead, and I think it's it's very telling 1124 01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:44,520 Speaker 1: given how they view them. So like the demon that 1125 01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:47,680 Speaker 1: we described already, the bringer of death. Uh, these ghosts 1126 01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:50,720 Speaker 1: smell bad there and they're frightful. So if you dream 1127 01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:53,440 Speaker 1: about one, it's a total nightmare. You're gonna wake up 1128 01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:56,120 Speaker 1: with aches and you can and you can blame any 1129 01:04:56,120 --> 01:05:00,240 Speaker 1: existing aches on that ghost. Dream man. Maybe that's been 1130 01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:02,960 Speaker 1: going on with me lately. Well, I thought it was 1131 01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,120 Speaker 1: just like a bara metric pressure change, but it might 1132 01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:07,960 Speaker 1: be ghost dreams. Well, you might need to take some 1133 01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,520 Speaker 1: of the psychoactive and medicinal plants that they used to 1134 01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:14,040 Speaker 1: dispel these dreams. Especially, we have these dreams about a 1135 01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:18,200 Speaker 1: deceased loved one now seeing a ghost while awake. For them, 1136 01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:21,400 Speaker 1: it's a serious health scare. So you have this scenario 1137 01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:26,160 Speaker 1: where they're these demonic entities out there and there after you, 1138 01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:28,479 Speaker 1: and if they get you, it's gonna make you physically ill, 1139 01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,880 Speaker 1: and then you may die. And then when an individual dies, 1140 01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,919 Speaker 1: they will typically come back as a ghost. And and 1141 01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:40,320 Speaker 1: that ghost is also a frightful thing that can make 1142 01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,960 Speaker 1: you sick, that can bring on physical illness and death 1143 01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:46,400 Speaker 1: and essentially kind of leach your soul out of you. 1144 01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:50,080 Speaker 1: So there's this whole taxonomy going on here of these 1145 01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:53,040 Speaker 1: various types of ghosts and how they're leading to other 1146 01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:57,800 Speaker 1: ghost creation. Yeah, yeah, essentially. Now, Shepherd says that the 1147 01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:02,600 Speaker 1: Comet series here serves as a way to dehumanize the dead. Quote, 1148 01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,680 Speaker 1: the dead person is no longer a beloved spouse, a relative, 1149 01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:08,720 Speaker 1: a human companion with a name, and when a social 1150 01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:14,240 Speaker 1: identity immediately upon death, they become common siri dead person 1151 01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:18,160 Speaker 1: ghost belonging to the ranks of demons and dreadful spirits 1152 01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:22,000 Speaker 1: that are the ultimate cause of illness and death. Ghosts, 1153 01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,720 Speaker 1: for the mats A Ginka are not anonymous spirits from 1154 01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:29,400 Speaker 1: bygone generations, and a ghost only visits the people at 1155 01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:32,760 Speaker 1: knew in life. Uh So they are alone, they are needy, 1156 01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,560 Speaker 1: they are awful, and there to be shunned and avoided 1157 01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:37,840 Speaker 1: so that they might travel on to the next life. 1158 01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:40,680 Speaker 1: So this is very different from other cultures where they 1159 01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:45,040 Speaker 1: revere they're dead. Right. So it's an interesting twist because 1160 01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,040 Speaker 1: generally the motif with ghosts and bereavement here in Western 1161 01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:54,600 Speaker 1: society is the living are losing it. We're crying, we're weeping, 1162 01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:58,120 Speaker 1: we're expressing our emotions, and then here comes the stoic 1163 01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:01,240 Speaker 1: ghosts that wanders in and keeps us out. But it's 1164 01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,880 Speaker 1: the reverse for for for the in this tradition, the 1165 01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:09,800 Speaker 1: the ghost is this needy, emotional thing and the humans 1166 01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:12,360 Speaker 1: are the ones that are going to react stoically, like 1167 01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:16,800 Speaker 1: there is this intense cultural pressure to not let your 1168 01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:21,040 Speaker 1: emotions out in the in the face of death. Okay, okay, 1169 01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:24,200 Speaker 1: So this is very tied into that analysis of don't 1170 01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:28,440 Speaker 1: look now, the idea of like reintaining maintaining your rationality, 1171 01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:32,080 Speaker 1: maintaining your self control, and not allowing yourself to fall 1172 01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:35,120 Speaker 1: into the emotional. Yeah, like the emotion alone is is 1173 01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:37,720 Speaker 1: going to make you sick, Shepherd says. Quote. Just as 1174 01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:41,440 Speaker 1: happiness is synonymous with health, so is sadness synonymous with illness. 1175 01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:45,320 Speaker 1: Sadness represents a condition in which the soul turns away 1176 01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:49,640 Speaker 1: in contemplation, disassociating itself from the rest of the physical 1177 01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:56,120 Speaker 1: and social body. Now, another interesting telling thing about the 1178 01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,040 Speaker 1: mats and Ginka here is that the dead. Uh, we're 1179 01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:03,080 Speaker 1: not traditionally buried. Uh, not at least not until missionaries 1180 01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:05,440 Speaker 1: came along. And we're really insistent on the fact that 1181 01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:08,120 Speaker 1: the dead should be buried. And the idea here is that, well, 1182 01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:11,480 Speaker 1: the ground that's that's full of flames and foul vapors 1183 01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:14,600 Speaker 1: and demons and illnesses. The only thing that should be 1184 01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:19,559 Speaker 1: buried there are stillborn children, deformed children, and second born 1185 01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:25,760 Speaker 1: twins because they are essentially doppelgangers. Police. Wow. Okay, So 1186 01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,800 Speaker 1: instead they practiced an exposure burial in which the dead 1187 01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:33,120 Speaker 1: were left among the buttress roots of large trees. And 1188 01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:35,200 Speaker 1: if you were old and dying, well you might just 1189 01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:37,479 Speaker 1: take it on yourself to walk out into the wilds 1190 01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:40,679 Speaker 1: all alone and find some tree roots to die among. 1191 01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:42,680 Speaker 1: So this is kind of like sky burial, which we've 1192 01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:47,280 Speaker 1: talked about before. Yeah, the elements and would essentially consume you. 1193 01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:51,320 Speaker 1: Uh and and this is also interesting because the shepherd 1194 01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:54,759 Speaker 1: says that the exposure burial served to chart their soul's 1195 01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:58,080 Speaker 1: journey into the afterlife based on the body state of decay. 1196 01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:00,840 Speaker 1: So you could look at the dead body of of 1197 01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:03,320 Speaker 1: of one of your people and you could say, okay, 1198 01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:07,200 Speaker 1: well this body is really decaying. It's it's a safe 1199 01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:10,360 Speaker 1: body to be around because the the ghost is far away. 1200 01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:12,840 Speaker 1: But if the body is fresh, the body hasn't decayed 1201 01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:15,160 Speaker 1: all that much, Well, this is dangerous because that means 1202 01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:19,519 Speaker 1: they're near, they're still more seemingly alive. And it's just 1203 01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,360 Speaker 1: so it's really interesting to look at that in terms 1204 01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:27,559 Speaker 1: of a culture's bereavement tactic, Like it's such a stoic um, 1205 01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,360 Speaker 1: you know, shields up way of dealing with death, Like, no, 1206 01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:33,720 Speaker 1: the dead person is a dangerous ghost now and I 1207 01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:36,760 Speaker 1: can't feel anything because that will endanger me. Yeah, so 1208 01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:40,759 Speaker 1: once you die in that culture, you're sort of shunned 1209 01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:43,759 Speaker 1: until you've been dead for a while, and it's okay 1210 01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:47,600 Speaker 1: to think about you or experience emotion related to you 1211 01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:51,320 Speaker 1: because your spirit is so far away. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Yeah. 1212 01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:53,400 Speaker 1: So I'll link to that full paper in the landing 1213 01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:54,920 Speaker 1: page of this episode of Stuff to Bring Your Mind 1214 01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:57,320 Speaker 1: dot Com because the whole paper is super interesting and 1215 01:09:57,320 --> 01:10:00,639 Speaker 1: it also gets into medicine, ginka notions of the soul 1216 01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:04,000 Speaker 1: as well. Okay, Well, for our last ghost story, we're 1217 01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:08,760 Speaker 1: gonna end where we reside here in North America. As 1218 01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:11,760 Speaker 1: you would imagine, the North American ghost story tradition is 1219 01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:15,759 Speaker 1: heavily tied into the European tradition, right. So North American 1220 01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:19,519 Speaker 1: ghost story writers like Henry James in eight ninety eight, 1221 01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:23,599 Speaker 1: or po or Washington Irving, they came out of that 1222 01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:26,800 Speaker 1: same tradition. And then the early nineteen hundreds we had 1223 01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:30,840 Speaker 1: pulp magazines that just helped spread ghost stories further. By 1224 01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:33,120 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine we got our own version of the 1225 01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:38,080 Speaker 1: psychological ghost story with Shirley Jackson's classic The Haunting of 1226 01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:41,519 Speaker 1: Hill House. But today I want to bring you right 1227 01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:47,160 Speaker 1: smack to here in seventeen Uh. This is interesting because 1228 01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:49,479 Speaker 1: it's both podcast related and it's a little bit of 1229 01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:53,240 Speaker 1: a meta take on the ghost story. And it's probably 1230 01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:56,320 Speaker 1: what most stuff to blow your mind listeners would expect 1231 01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:58,519 Speaker 1: from us in terms of our taking a look at 1232 01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,559 Speaker 1: ghost stories and sort of a scientific approach. Well, yeah, 1233 01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:03,360 Speaker 1: we tend to look at things like, all right, what's 1234 01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:06,880 Speaker 1: going on with hallucination? What's going on here with uh, 1235 01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:12,040 Speaker 1: with the nature of human memory? Yeah. So, Carrie Poppy 1236 01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:14,840 Speaker 1: is the podcast host of a show called Oh No, 1237 01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:17,599 Speaker 1: Ross and Carry. I had not heard of it until 1238 01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:21,559 Speaker 1: discovering this story, but their podcast sounds like it would 1239 01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:24,519 Speaker 1: be something that our listeners would like. Probably some of 1240 01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:28,160 Speaker 1: you listen to it already. They explore fringe science, spirituality, 1241 01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:32,040 Speaker 1: and claims of the paranormal in our world. Uh. Now, 1242 01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:35,280 Speaker 1: Carrie Poppy, she gave a ted talk at the beginning 1243 01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:38,559 Speaker 1: of Seen. She talks about how when she was twenty 1244 01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:42,439 Speaker 1: five years old, she felt like someone was watching her 1245 01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:45,559 Speaker 1: in her home and this kept getting worse, and she 1246 01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:49,160 Speaker 1: felt a pressure in her chest and it got so 1247 01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:53,160 Speaker 1: worse over time that she eventually felt physical pain from it. 1248 01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:55,679 Speaker 1: And over the course of a week, it got worse 1249 01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:59,320 Speaker 1: and it worse, and she thought maybe something was haunting her. 1250 01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:04,759 Speaker 1: So she eventually started hearing whooshing sounds like auditory sounds 1251 01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:08,600 Speaker 1: of whooshing going like sort of through her. So she 1252 01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:12,799 Speaker 1: turns to this forum of skeptics online and she types 1253 01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:15,080 Speaker 1: into them. She says, Hey, I'm experiencing this. What do 1254 01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:17,559 Speaker 1: you guys think is going on? One of them says, 1255 01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:21,120 Speaker 1: have you ever heard of carbon monoxide poisoning? And this 1256 01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:23,800 Speaker 1: is essentially when you have a gas leak, carbon monoxide 1257 01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:27,480 Speaker 1: leaks into your home. All the symptoms of carbon monoxide 1258 01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:31,280 Speaker 1: poisoning were similar to what she was experiencing. So she 1259 01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:34,479 Speaker 1: calls her gas company. They come out and they find, 1260 01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:37,120 Speaker 1: sure enough, she's got a gas leak and it would 1261 01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:40,000 Speaker 1: have killed her pretty soon if she hadn't addressed it. 1262 01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:43,599 Speaker 1: So in her TED talk, Carrie Poppy talks about how 1263 01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:47,680 Speaker 1: this incident led her to become an investigator, both in 1264 01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:51,560 Speaker 1: journalism and in the paranormal. So now she goes undercover 1265 01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:55,479 Speaker 1: and investigates stuff like exorcisms and fringe groups, and this 1266 01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:58,320 Speaker 1: is all part of that Oh No, Ross and Carry podcast. 1267 01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:01,639 Speaker 1: And in this talk she says, ten times out of ten, 1268 01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:05,960 Speaker 1: every time I've investigated something, paranormal science wins and saves 1269 01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:10,040 Speaker 1: the day. Uh. And she basically breaks it down. She says, look, 1270 01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:13,559 Speaker 1: there's two types of truth. There's outer truth, which is 1271 01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:17,120 Speaker 1: basically scientific truth that's objective, it has evidence. And she 1272 01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:19,559 Speaker 1: says there's also inner truth and this is more art 1273 01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:24,400 Speaker 1: oriented and personal. Now, she thinks here in the United 1274 01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:27,280 Speaker 1: States and in North America, we tend to make a 1275 01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:31,200 Speaker 1: mistake and we we conflate the two things, and we 1276 01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:36,439 Speaker 1: make other people defend their belief systems, their truths based 1277 01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,479 Speaker 1: on other standards. Right, So, for instance, like maybe we 1278 01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:42,960 Speaker 1: make a scientist defend their ideas based on our personal 1279 01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:47,440 Speaker 1: beliefs or vice versa. Maybe we interrogate somebody's personal beliefs, 1280 01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:50,440 Speaker 1: whether it be about religion or ghosts, and we interrogate 1281 01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:54,439 Speaker 1: them on some kind of scientific standing. Uh So about 1282 01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:57,280 Speaker 1: realizing that these these are two worlds that don't really 1283 01:13:57,280 --> 01:14:02,080 Speaker 1: necessarily touch exactly. Yeah, And so she says, when we 1284 01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:07,000 Speaker 1: have scientific explanations, we know literally when to give up 1285 01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:10,599 Speaker 1: the ghost. That like in her case, for instance, she 1286 01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:14,080 Speaker 1: found out what the scientific explanation was for carbon monoxide 1287 01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:17,559 Speaker 1: poisoning and that she was like, Okay, there's no longer 1288 01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:19,960 Speaker 1: any issue of me thinking there's a ghost here and 1289 01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:22,400 Speaker 1: anybody else I tell this story too, is probably not 1290 01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:24,679 Speaker 1: going to say to me, yeah, but there might still 1291 01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:28,440 Speaker 1: be a ghost there, you know, like it's been well explained. 1292 01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:31,080 Speaker 1: We're gonna quote give up the ghost and move on 1293 01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:35,639 Speaker 1: to the rational scientific side. And she discusses groups that 1294 01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,519 Speaker 1: test the paranormal and prove that the paranormal is in 1295 01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:43,360 Speaker 1: fact other things with evidence, right, these skeptic groups. She 1296 01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:47,799 Speaker 1: sees this as actually being motivated to help people's lives 1297 01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:50,320 Speaker 1: for the better. So we've talked about many instance of 1298 01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:53,360 Speaker 1: things like this on the show before, whether it's exorcisms 1299 01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:56,639 Speaker 1: or alien abductions, things like that. If you look at 1300 01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:58,519 Speaker 1: it and you're able to ground it in some kind 1301 01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:02,719 Speaker 1: of scientific evidence, then maybe you can help the victims 1302 01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:05,920 Speaker 1: of things like this come to terms with it, right exactly. 1303 01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:10,200 Speaker 1: You have to be accepting though on a certain level. Right, 1304 01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:14,560 Speaker 1: you can't just approach them completely, Uh, I don't know, dismissively. 1305 01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:19,000 Speaker 1: So Carrie Poppy, she says, look, every time I investigate 1306 01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:21,400 Speaker 1: one of these things, I hope I'll be proven wrong. 1307 01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:25,280 Speaker 1: I hope that there's ghosts out there. But then she asks, look, 1308 01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:28,760 Speaker 1: when you are investigating these things, are talking to other 1309 01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:32,559 Speaker 1: people who have claims like this, respect these people enough 1310 01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:36,720 Speaker 1: to test their claims rather than just immediately blowing them off. 1311 01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:41,040 Speaker 1: She says that through her search for what's out there, 1312 01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:46,479 Speaker 1: trying to investigate the paranormal, that helps us understand what's 1313 01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:49,439 Speaker 1: inside us. So I thought that was a really poignant 1314 01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:51,719 Speaker 1: way to kind of wrap up all of these ghost 1315 01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:55,439 Speaker 1: stories that we've been looking at here that inherently whether 1316 01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:58,479 Speaker 1: the ghost is real, whether you're reading a story that 1317 01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,040 Speaker 1: was written by m R. James, you're experiencing something in 1318 01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:04,360 Speaker 1: your culture in China or South America, or you're here 1319 01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:07,479 Speaker 1: in America and you're on this metal level where you're like, 1320 01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:10,720 Speaker 1: ghosts can't possibly be real. We have to figure out 1321 01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:16,720 Speaker 1: what's going on here. Yeah, Ultimately it's about the human condition. Yeah, yeah, 1322 01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:19,320 Speaker 1: I mean, what what is this? What is what? What 1323 01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:22,439 Speaker 1: are we trying to, uh to communicate or how is 1324 01:16:22,479 --> 01:16:25,160 Speaker 1: the ghost story serving as sort of a pressure valve, 1325 01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:29,920 Speaker 1: uh for some sort of cultural angst? Yeah, exactly. So, 1326 01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:32,360 Speaker 1: just to fill out Poppies story, I want to throw 1327 01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:34,400 Speaker 1: out a few ideas as to what might be going 1328 01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:38,240 Speaker 1: on scientifically when we're looking at ghost sightings here. So, 1329 01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:42,799 Speaker 1: first of all, from scientific American hallucinations are very common 1330 01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:45,400 Speaker 1: when human beings are grieving. In fact, there's a study 1331 01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:48,640 Speaker 1: that shows over eight percent of elderly people said that 1332 01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:53,559 Speaker 1: they experienced hallucinations associated with their dead partner at least 1333 01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:57,840 Speaker 1: one month after bereavement. So that seems very common and 1334 01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:01,320 Speaker 1: not like something that I've heard about on a regular basis. Yeah, 1335 01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:05,080 Speaker 1: we've covered hallucinations on the show here before, and hallucinations occur. 1336 01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:07,400 Speaker 1: I mean, our our experience of reality is in many 1337 01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:10,800 Speaker 1: ways and an hallucination in and of itself. Yeah. So 1338 01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:13,120 Speaker 1: then I also looked at an article by Mental Philoss 1339 01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:17,599 Speaker 1: and they said that Canadian neuroscientist Michael Persinger has actually 1340 01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:23,320 Speaker 1: argued that electromagnetic fields maybe stimulating our temporal lobes and 1341 01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:26,360 Speaker 1: that this can potentially cause us to feel like there's 1342 01:17:26,360 --> 01:17:29,080 Speaker 1: a presence in a room. So if there's something that's 1343 01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:32,679 Speaker 1: generating this particular kind of electromagnetic field, that may explain 1344 01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:37,200 Speaker 1: what the phenomena is. Other hypotheses are things like infrasound. 1345 01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:39,120 Speaker 1: Those are sounds that are so little that we can't 1346 01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:44,160 Speaker 1: hear them. So these sounds cause us physiological discomfort, panic, 1347 01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:47,439 Speaker 1: changes in our heart rate, and our blood pressure. All 1348 01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:50,640 Speaker 1: of these things are associated with hauntings. There's an engineer 1349 01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:54,599 Speaker 1: named vict Pandy who wrote about this in a paper 1350 01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:57,559 Speaker 1: about a room that he worked in that felt haunted, 1351 01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:01,720 Speaker 1: and he eventually discovered it was actually home to a 1352 01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:06,840 Speaker 1: nineteen Hurts standing wave that was coming from a fan 1353 01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:08,840 Speaker 1: in the room and that that was what was causing 1354 01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:12,719 Speaker 1: him to experience these symptoms. If you look at Poppy's story, 1355 01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:17,080 Speaker 1: then in a doctor named W. H. Wilmer published a 1356 01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:20,719 Speaker 1: paper in the American Journal of Ophthalmology about a family 1357 01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:23,960 Speaker 1: who was experiencing a haunting and it turned out that 1358 01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:26,559 Speaker 1: they had a faulty furnace and that it was filling 1359 01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:29,639 Speaker 1: their home with carbon monoxide, which was causing them both 1360 01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:35,160 Speaker 1: oral and visual hallucinations. So all of this is to say, 1361 01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:37,639 Speaker 1: like we I think now, like you get to North 1362 01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:40,920 Speaker 1: America and maybe globally as like we've become more globalized, 1363 01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:43,840 Speaker 1: we're at this point point where our ghost stories are 1364 01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:48,800 Speaker 1: starting to be analyzed from this perspective like what what 1365 01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:52,240 Speaker 1: are we actually experiencing? But then what does the experience 1366 01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:55,720 Speaker 1: tell us about ourselves? Like placing the ghost narrative on 1367 01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:59,280 Speaker 1: top of it, what what what's going on inside? Uh? 1368 01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:01,720 Speaker 1: And I would just if carry Poppy is listening I 1369 01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:04,920 Speaker 1: would say, sounds like she's going to be the perfect 1370 01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:08,920 Speaker 1: victim in a story, for a classic Mr. James style 1371 01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:14,240 Speaker 1: ghost story, because she's the learned, gentlewoman who who's rational, right, 1372 01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:17,879 Speaker 1: and then eventually she's gonna stumble across some antique object. 1373 01:19:18,040 --> 01:19:20,479 Speaker 1: It's gonna unleash ghosts like crazy, and she's not gonna 1374 01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:22,800 Speaker 1: have an explanation for it. And then the murderous dwarf 1375 01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:26,360 Speaker 1: is gonna come for and it's over exactly. So there 1376 01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:30,000 Speaker 1: you go. We covered six continents. There were certainly were 1377 01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:32,760 Speaker 1: not able to get to every fabulous ghost story in 1378 01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:34,960 Speaker 1: the world, but we hit a few high points that 1379 01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:39,240 Speaker 1: were I feel like, help to illuminate what's going on 1380 01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:42,960 Speaker 1: in our ghost stories, what they're saying about the human experience, 1381 01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:45,800 Speaker 1: and even uh and even getting into some of the 1382 01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:48,080 Speaker 1: science of what could actually be going on to cause 1383 01:19:48,160 --> 01:19:50,840 Speaker 1: some of these disturbances. Yeah. So, if you are from 1384 01:19:50,920 --> 01:19:53,439 Speaker 1: any of these regions that we covered and you're like, guys, 1385 01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:57,240 Speaker 1: you totally missed this cool ghost story fact about my 1386 01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:00,439 Speaker 1: my area, please connect with us on social on media. 1387 01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:03,240 Speaker 1: We're on Facebook, we're on Twitter, we're on tumbler, we're 1388 01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:06,680 Speaker 1: on Instagram. We've also got our Facebook discussion module. Where 1389 01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:08,600 Speaker 1: are the community around Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 1390 01:20:08,640 --> 01:20:12,000 Speaker 1: having awesome conversations every day based on our episodes are 1391 01:20:12,040 --> 01:20:14,520 Speaker 1: just based on things they think that will be interesting 1392 01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:16,920 Speaker 1: to fans of the show. Yeah, a great place to 1393 01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:18,920 Speaker 1: share your own ghost stories or if you want to 1394 01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:20,960 Speaker 1: if you want to talk about by Cameral Mind and 1395 01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:23,000 Speaker 1: how that play you think that could play into various 1396 01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:25,519 Speaker 1: ghost stories. That's a great place for those discussions as well. 1397 01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:28,000 Speaker 1: In the meantime, heading over to stuff to Blow your 1398 01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:30,679 Speaker 1: Mind dot com, that's where we'll find all the podcast 1399 01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:32,719 Speaker 1: episodes going all the way back to the very beginning. 1400 01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:36,240 Speaker 1: You'll find uh blogs and videos as well, and you'll 1401 01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:38,760 Speaker 1: find links to those various social media accounts. And if 1402 01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:39,960 Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us the old 1403 01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:42,559 Speaker 1: fashioned way, just hit us with an email at below 1404 01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:55,160 Speaker 1: the mind and how Stuff Works dot com. We're more 1405 01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:57,479 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how 1406 01:20:57,520 --> 01:21:14,080 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com? Think, I think the party support 1407 01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:17,680 Speaker 1: support star