Speaker 1: Hey fam, Hello Sunshine. Today on the bright side, upgrade
Speaker 1: your physical and emotional well being, psychiatrist and author doctor
Speaker 1: Sue Varma is here to show us the power of
Speaker 1: flexing our optimism muscle.
Speaker 2: It's Wednesday, April tenth. I'm simone voice.
Speaker 1: I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright side from
Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 3: Hi Danielle, see money.
Speaker 1: We didn't really get to catch up after your trip.
Speaker 1: How are you feeling after watching the eclipse in real time?
Speaker 2: I feel like it sent me into an existential spiral,
Speaker 2: if I'm being.
Speaker 1: Honest, only you, only me, of course, why is that?
Speaker 2: Because I went to go watch the eclipse with all
Speaker 2: my dad's family, like thirty relatives that I haven't seen
Speaker 2: in probably like ten years, and I saw my aunts
Speaker 2: and uncles and how they've been impacted by those years
Speaker 2: that I haven't seen them, and how fast they're aging,
Speaker 2: and it just hit me so hard. Like you know,
Speaker 2: how you're growing up and you're you're at the kids
Speaker 2: table and you look up to your uncles and aunts
Speaker 2: and they're like these almost immortal figures in your life, yes,
Speaker 2: and so then to see them aging and frail and
Speaker 2: like in pain or just you know, natural signs of aging,
Speaker 2: like silver hair. It just like it really hit me
Speaker 2: in a big way this trip.
Speaker 1: It's so hard to see. Did it make you want
Speaker 1: to move to Buffalo and take your kids there and
Speaker 1: do a whole different kind of life.
Speaker 2: It didn't make me want to move there, because I
Speaker 2: just I don't think that's me. But it did make
Speaker 2: me think about the sacrifices that we make for our dreams,
Speaker 2: and leaving extended family behind is one of them. Both
Speaker 2: my dad and my mom left their families behind at
Speaker 2: an early age to go pursue their careers, and I
Speaker 2: did the exact same thing, and that is a very
Speaker 2: real sacrifice.
Speaker 1: I think about it all the time. Do you really, Oh,
Speaker 1: my god, I have a I don't want to call
Speaker 1: it an irrational fear because I think it's rational, but
Speaker 1: a huge fear that I will not have children in
Speaker 1: time for my parents to really know them, because I
Speaker 1: had such a special relationship with my grandparents, and so
Speaker 1: each year I get older, I get so anxious and
Speaker 1: nervous about that because family is so deep in my bones.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you feel like we've lost sight of family,
Speaker 2: of the importance of family.
Speaker 3: Being in a city like Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: I think about that a lot. I'm not sure. I
Speaker 1: do think there's seasons in life, like I think that
Speaker 1: we're in our mountain climbing years in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: But my dad always calendared things out, and I think
Speaker 1: he did that because if you don't have something on
Speaker 1: the calendar, it just doesn't happen. Yes, and so my
Speaker 1: goal is to plan a few more trips and make
Speaker 1: sure that they happen.
Speaker 2: That's the big takeaway for me. And when I texted
Speaker 2: my friend about this, I was like feeling kind of
Speaker 2: sad about it. She was like, listen, it is a
Speaker 2: privilege and an honor to get to watch your family
Speaker 2: members age. The big takeaway for me is I just
Speaker 2: need to be more intentional about seeing them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we need family reunions.
Speaker 2: Family bring back the family reunion that ruined the family reunion.
Speaker 1: Yes, we need to bring them back. I don't it's
Speaker 1: pot luck. It doesn't have to be fancy. Yes, we
Speaker 1: just need a place because it's too hard to fly
Speaker 1: all over the country. People live everywhere nowadays. Yes, we
Speaker 1: need one place once a year where we all come
Speaker 1: together for one weekend.
Speaker 2: Yes, all right, Okay, So that's that's my existential crisis.
Speaker 3: Let's lighten it up.
Speaker 1: Okay, honestly a really real existential crisis. Though I'm glad
Speaker 1: you brought it up. I'm glad we got to air
Speaker 1: it out. Let's see what's popping on our feeds today.
Speaker 2: This is your morning drip, Danielle Billie Eilish. Are you
Speaker 2: a fan huge?
Speaker 1: Oh my god? She is such an old soul, wise
Speaker 1: beyond her years.
Speaker 3: Every time I listen to her music, I'm just like,
Speaker 3: how why? Who?
Speaker 2: How? How is one person? I mean it's her and
Speaker 2: her brother, but like, how can they be so creative
Speaker 2: and brilliant?
Speaker 1: She's been here before that's why.
Speaker 3: Oh past lives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, lives sah yeah, she's like on her ninety
Speaker 1: seventh life.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 2: Okay, we haven't had the past live conversation. We need
Speaker 2: to talk about reincarnation at some point. But okay, big
Speaker 2: news in the world of Billie Eilish. Right, she is
Speaker 2: hard launching her upcoming album. It's called Hit Me Hard
Speaker 2: and Soft. I cannot wait for this. I know this
Speaker 2: is something I'm gonna be playing on repeat. This is
Speaker 2: actually her third full length album and it's gonna come
Speaker 2: out next month. We don't have to wait too long.
Speaker 2: May seventeenth, and she announced it on Instagram and she
Speaker 2: said that there won't be any singles leading up to
Speaker 2: the release. Interesting move, interesting, very strategic move. So the
Speaker 2: album is gonna come out all at once.
Speaker 1: What has hit me hard and soft? Mean, like, that's
Speaker 1: the title, It's billy, it's a little sexual.
Speaker 3: It's it's a dichotomy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's always like eight meanings behind which you do.
Speaker 1: So I'm excited to hear what it actually means instead
Speaker 1: of my mind going in one direction. But speaking of
Speaker 1: sexual did you watch The Bear of course? Okay, So
Speaker 1: Jeremy Allen White, who has become a real sex symbol
Speaker 1: in today's culture. You might remember him in those tidy
Speaker 1: whities and those Calvin Klein ads, but we might also
Speaker 1: see him in some very tight genes complete with an
Speaker 1: iconic red bandana. He's reportedly in talks to play Bruce
Speaker 1: Springsteen in the upcoming biopic Deliver Me from Nowhere the Boss,
Speaker 1: But the movie just landed at twentieth Century Studios and
Speaker 1: is about the making of Springsteen's nineteen eighty two Nebraska album.
Speaker 2: I Love This for Jeremy. I think he's gonna crush it.
Speaker 1: He's such a talented actor. Did you see Shameless? I
Speaker 1: watch because I'm from Chicago.
Speaker 3: I did not.
Speaker 1: He is so freaking good. He can be comedic, dramatic,
Speaker 1: you believe him on screen, and he's so sexy, ugly.
Speaker 1: I love him and anything.
Speaker 2: It's so funny that he had this whole chapter from
Speaker 2: before The Bear where he was in Shameless, that wasn't
Speaker 2: really on my radar, and so I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people look at The Bear and the success of
Speaker 2: that show and they're like, oh, he was just an
Speaker 2: overnight success.
Speaker 3: He came out of nowhere. But he's been doing this
Speaker 3: for a minute.
Speaker 1: Yeah he has. He earned it.
Speaker 2: Okay, people get ready to lose control this summer because
Speaker 2: the one, the only, Missy Elliott is going on her
Speaker 2: first ever headline tour.
Speaker 3: That's crazy.
Speaker 1: Oh cute the applause. I can't believe this is her
Speaker 1: first ever. It is so overdue. I have no words.
Speaker 2: She's been making music, she's been Missy for thirty years.
Speaker 2: How is this her first headline tour? This is insane.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing about Missy, not that there weren't other
Speaker 1: women rappers that deserve respect, before her because there were
Speaker 1: but she was one of the first women rappers that
Speaker 1: the men respected. She changed the game for female rap
Speaker 1: artists and she the music videos she would produce were
Speaker 1: so crazy creative. She really made an impact on the
Speaker 1: industry and I think generations of people are going to
Speaker 1: come out for this tour.
Speaker 2: But do you think that she had to present as
Speaker 2: masculine in order to gain the respect to the.
Speaker 3: Boys in the business.
Speaker 1: I think that's just who she was.
Speaker 2: I just wonder like, would they have treated her the
Speaker 2: same if if she was a.
Speaker 1: Little kim No. But it all the timing and everything
Speaker 1: worked out for her and she made a wave.
Speaker 2: She's iconic, style icon Okay, So this tour, she's gonna
Speaker 2: be bringing out busta rhymes see Aura Timbaland. I mean,
Speaker 2: I would love to see them in person. I have
Speaker 2: to go to this. The tour starts in July. It's
Speaker 2: gonna hit twenty four cities across North America.
Speaker 1: We have to round out our morning Drip with another
Speaker 1: boss lady. Did you see Rihanna's interview magazine cover that
Speaker 1: just came out? Did I did you?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I did so? I eat up any Rihanna Interview because
Speaker 1: she's pretty private, and in this one she actually got
Speaker 1: really candid. You can tell she's like friendly with the interviewer.
Speaker 1: And so it starts at three am, which is so Rihanna.
Speaker 1: It goes for ninety minutes, and she talks about everything.
Speaker 1: She talks about her relationship with Asap, how in love
Speaker 1: they are, her kids, being in mom mode, her obsession
Speaker 1: with Bravo. Obviously I was interested to hear her thoughts
Speaker 1: on plastic surgery, and then, obviously, in true Rihanna fashion,
Speaker 1: she sort of vaguely mentions new music and we don't
Speaker 1: learn anything more.
Speaker 2: She keeps doing this to us every few years. Yeah, wait,
Speaker 2: what did she say about plastic surgery? I missed that part.
Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna mention it. But now that you ask,
Speaker 1: her exact quote is I want my titties pinned back
Speaker 1: to my shoulders right where they used to be. I
Speaker 1: don't want implants, I just want to live.
Speaker 2: I'm just imagining her walking into a plastic surgeon's office
Speaker 2: in Beverly Hills and being like, pin these titties back
Speaker 2: to my shoulders please right now?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean she would see.
Speaker 3: I just love her. Gosh, she's so funny, but she
Speaker 3: talks about.
Speaker 1: How she's scared to go under the knife, and so
Speaker 1: you know if she if she picked one thing, it
Speaker 1: would be her boobs.
Speaker 3: Listen.
Speaker 1: But she was really candid.
Speaker 2: That is so relatable, especially after you give birth. Them
Speaker 2: thang saying what they used to be, be hanging low.
Speaker 1: You have to give me the whole lowdown.
Speaker 3: But I did.
Speaker 2: I really related to one of the pictures that she
Speaker 2: posted on her Instagram from this shoot.
Speaker 3: It's like she has she's like.
Speaker 2: Dresses kind of like a trad wife almost, and she
Speaker 2: has really dark circles under her eyes, like zombies. It's
Speaker 2: like a zombie trad wife.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And she her caption was literally how I feel in postpartum.
Speaker 2: I was like, girl, I've been there. I want I
Speaker 2: want to text her and be like, hey, I'm with you.
Speaker 2: I don't have her number.
Speaker 1: How long does it take to feel like yourself again? Oh?
Speaker 2: God?
Speaker 3: See, I don't like to tell people the truth.
Speaker 1: What's the truth, Give it to me real the other day,
Speaker 1: don't give me the bright side.
Speaker 3: So I have to tell a story. First.
Speaker 2: I'm sitting with my friend the other day at her apartment.
Speaker 2: She's pregnant and she's like terrified of giving birth, and
Speaker 2: so I showed her my birth videos the other day,
Speaker 2: like she got all of it, all of it, like
Speaker 2: she got to see the baby coming out.
Speaker 1: Who filmed your birth video?
Speaker 3: My husband? I made him do it.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: I know, isn't that I mean?
Speaker 1: I said direct, But it's a lot.
Speaker 3: It's a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Even the doctor was like he doesn't need to be
Speaker 2: doing this right now, like you're giving birth. So anyways,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to help her feel better about giving birth.
Speaker 2: And she asked me that question. How long does it take?
Speaker 2: And the honest.
Speaker 3: Truth is two years? Okay, but it's.
Speaker 1: Incorrect after each baby or if you have two under two.
Speaker 2: No, I think, well, if you have two under two,
Speaker 2: good luck, But I think it takes about a year.
Speaker 2: A year is a pretty big milestone for you, you know,
Speaker 2: like the baby's more independent, you're starting to feel it yourself.
Speaker 2: It happens in stages, but two is like when you
Speaker 2: really are like, okay, I can take back my life again.
Speaker 1: I froze my eggs and they say, just that is
Speaker 1: about six months. Yeah, so you can't imagine it makes
Speaker 1: sense giving birth would be about two years.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The math is mathing.
Speaker 1: Stay with us because after the break, we're learning how
Speaker 1: to get more than just an optimistic outlook. Doctor Sue
Speaker 1: Varmah tells us how to get optimistic out.
Speaker 2: Oh that sounds so good. I can't wait to hear
Speaker 2: this interview. I'm bummed that I had to miss it.
Speaker 3: Danielle.
Speaker 1: We missed you so much. I actually felt like it
Speaker 1: was an interview that you would have loved. But now
Speaker 1: we get to listen to it. We're back. I'm Danielle
Speaker 1: Robe and Its Wellness Wednesday. Today we're talking about a
Speaker 1: very bright side subject, optimism. I mean, after all, we
Speaker 1: named our podcast the bright Side, right, But in my mind,
Speaker 1: optimism is not just a buzzword or a mood. It's
Speaker 1: a mindset that shapes how we see the world and
Speaker 1: drives our actions. There's a growing body of research that
Speaker 1: shows changing your mindset by thinking more optimistically can actually
Speaker 1: have a huge effect on your physical and emotional well being.
Speaker 1: So maybe we're all missing a huge obvious tool in
Speaker 1: our self care toolbox optimism. Here to talk about it
Speaker 1: is doctor su Varma. She's a board certified psychiatrist, cogive
Speaker 1: behavioral therapist, and the author of the book Practical Optimism,
Speaker 1: Doctor Varma, thank you so much for joining us on
Speaker 1: the bright Side.
Speaker 4: Oh my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 4: I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1: Okay, I may be a little biased, but I do
Speaker 1: feel like this is the perfect show for your research,
Speaker 1: Doctor Varma. Can you start us off with what your
Speaker 1: definition of optimism is.
Speaker 4: Yes, So, optimism is an outlook that positive things will happen, right,
Speaker 4: And so for me, I thought this was so interesting
Speaker 4: because when you look at resilience, optimism is a key feature.
Speaker 4: So in an uncertain situation where any number of outcomes
Speaker 4: are possible, an optimistic person will always imagine the most
Speaker 4: favorable outcome. But I wanted to go one step further.
Speaker 4: I didn't want to just have a person have a
Speaker 4: positive outlook in life. I want to help them have
Speaker 4: positive outcomes in life. Ooh, not just an outlook and outcome.
Speaker 1: Yea.
Speaker 4: It's actionable, actionable, absolutely, And that's what practical optimism is.
Speaker 1: Because I think you're touching on something that people conflate.
Speaker 1: They think of optimism and then they think happiness or positivity,
Speaker 1: And to me, there's a real difference, Like you're not
Speaker 1: just saying everything's great, everything's fine, and kind of lying
Speaker 1: to yourself. Almost optimism is acknowledging that there is an issue,
Speaker 1: but that you will see that light at the end
Speaker 1: of the tunnel.
Speaker 4: Yes, And to me, that's how I define it. It's
Speaker 4: a practical choice. It's a decision that you make right.
Speaker 4: So it's not just an outlook, because look, the reality
Speaker 4: is that some of us are not born with a
Speaker 4: positive outlook. That's not our natural inclination. Like let's say
Speaker 4: you're at the airport and they're like, there's a plane delay.
Speaker 4: Does your mind automatically go to, oh my god, I'm
Speaker 4: going to miss my plane, I'm going to miss the
Speaker 4: meeting or the wedding or whatever it is that I'm
Speaker 4: traveling to. Or does your brain say, it's fine, it'll
Speaker 4: probably only be ten minutes, right. So we all have
Speaker 4: a genetic predisposition, a tendency towards one or the other.
Speaker 4: But what if you do if you're the glass half
Speaker 4: empty type, are you screwed in life? And I'm like, no,
Speaker 4: I don't want to be screwed in light because a
Speaker 4: lot of times I am glass half empty depending on
Speaker 4: the situation. And that's the other thing is that you
Speaker 4: can be optimistic in one aspect of your life, let's say,
Speaker 4: in romance and relationships, but not in others, and maybe
Speaker 4: not in finances, maybe not at your job.
Speaker 5: So it can also depend a case by case.
Speaker 1: I was actually so curious if you consider yourself an optimist, you.
Speaker 5: Know, that's such a tricky thing.
Speaker 4: I don't think I was, and I think that I
Speaker 4: have a tendency sometimes to catastrophize, and that's something that
Speaker 4: I learned in my own journey, and I learned over
Speaker 4: time through this training. Like this, practical optimism is something
Speaker 4: I've done on my patience, but I practice it every day,
Speaker 4: Like I don't think, oh, okay now, just because I've
Speaker 4: written a book on it, yes, you can call me
Speaker 4: an expert, but I have to use it, and to me,
Speaker 4: that's very freeing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, because your book shares that it's basically
Speaker 1: it's not a mindset, it's a muscle.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, exactly. Optimism is a key feature of resilience.
Speaker 4: But I just looked at it as something you have
Speaker 4: or you don't, and I didn't realize twenty years ago
Speaker 4: that it's something that you can actually make an effort
Speaker 4: to change. And it is genetic. But guess what, only
Speaker 4: twenty five percent of it is.
Speaker 1: Well. I was kind of laughing reading that part of
Speaker 1: your book because I had a therapist one time ask me,
Speaker 1: do you feel like the world has your back?
Speaker 5: Interesting?
Speaker 1: And she shared that some people do and some people don't.
Speaker 1: And I very clearly thought about the people in my life,
Speaker 1: like my mom feels like the world has her back.
Speaker 1: I don't think my dad does. And your dad was
Speaker 1: an optimist, right.
Speaker 4: Yes, And he came from very humble beginnings. You know,
Speaker 4: he's born in the late nineteen thirties in India. He
Speaker 4: grew up in Rajasthan, which is in the desert. At
Speaker 4: that time, there was no electricity. Most people didn't have it.
Speaker 4: But when you ask him about his childhood, all he
Speaker 4: remembers is, oh, my god, we had camel rides and
Speaker 4: like hurricane lambs and ghost stories by the fireplace. I'm like,
Speaker 4: that's because you had no electricity. He's like, no, no, no,
Speaker 4: depends on how you want to look at it, you know,
Speaker 4: on sleepovers and slumber parties on the rooftop. I'm like,
Speaker 4: cause it was too hot because he didn't have fan,
Speaker 4: because he didn't have electricity, and he would just he
Speaker 4: spins the stories in such ways and he makes himself
Speaker 4: laugh and just the eternal optimist. But also what I
Speaker 4: realized is that he's got a WhatsApp chat group with
Speaker 4: his friends from like the graduated med school the nineteen
Speaker 4: fifties in India. He travels all over the world to
Speaker 4: meet them. They have reunions. He drags me on trips
Speaker 4: like he's constantly spearheading get together as reunions.
Speaker 5: He's eighty six.
Speaker 1: Amazing. Why do you think having an optimistic mindset is important?
Speaker 4: Optimism is a game changer in life. If you were
Speaker 4: like I want to make more money, I want to
Speaker 4: be more fit, Optimism is the way to go. Optimism
Speaker 4: is a well spring for health, for wealth, for longevity,
Speaker 4: not just longevity, but exceptional longevity, which is living into
Speaker 4: your eighties with good health. Because a lot of times
Speaker 4: our lifespan is increasing in this country, but our health span,
Speaker 4: which is the number of year spent in good health,
Speaker 4: is not increasing to the same proportion. They did a
Speaker 4: two hundred thousand person study and they showed that optimism
Speaker 4: makes you thirty percent less likely to have a heart attack,
Speaker 4: thirty percent less likely to have strokes, thirty percent less
Speaker 4: likely to die from any reason prematurely. Wow, you are
Speaker 4: forty percent more likely to get a raise as an
Speaker 4: optimist in the next year.
Speaker 1: What, Yep, you're forty percent more likely to get a raise, Yes.
Speaker 5: In the next year.
Speaker 1: How do you think that person?
Speaker 4: You know, the variety of things. Optimists are more likely
Speaker 4: to a not take things personally when things don't work
Speaker 4: out in their favor. So let's say that they were
Speaker 4: trying to get one. They will keep trying, right and essly.
Speaker 4: They're also really.
Speaker 5: Good with people.
Speaker 4: They have longer and stronger friendships, including in the workplace.
Speaker 4: They're easier to get along with, they're open minded, they
Speaker 4: have secure attachments, or they're willing to at least work
Speaker 4: towards that.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: They have five times less burnout, six times more work engagement.
Speaker 4: So in every aspect of their life, like from in habits,
Speaker 4: from mental health to mental health, they take care of themselves.
Speaker 4: They go to annual visits, they wear their seat belt,
Speaker 4: they're not smoking, they're exercising, so literally.
Speaker 5: From head to toe less anxiety, less depression.
Speaker 1: So before writing Practical Optimism, you spent decades as a psychiatrist.
Speaker 1: What did you pick up from all of your patients
Speaker 1: that led you to writing this book about optimism.
Speaker 4: What I realized is that only a small fraction of
Speaker 4: people are ever going to come and get help.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: We know that mental illness or mental health disorders are
Speaker 4: so common, one in five people have it, and anxiety
Speaker 4: is so common, but most people forty or fifty percent
Speaker 4: will never seek treatment for variety reasons, cost, stigma, They
Speaker 4: don't know they have it, they just think it's part
Speaker 4: of their personality. And I was thinking, how great would
Speaker 4: it be if the tools that I'm giving my patients
Speaker 4: who come in to make it accessible to everybody, so
Speaker 4: that you don't have to wait for the other shoe
Speaker 4: to drop, Because that's what happened to me. Right, And
Speaker 4: I think that we don't focus enough on prevention. And
Speaker 4: when I was working at the nine to eleven program,
Speaker 4: I learned that, yes, resilience, this concept of bouncing back
Speaker 4: from adversity is great, but I realized that me personally,
Speaker 4: I was more interested in thriving in.
Speaker 3: The face of it.
Speaker 1: Well, I want to touch on your personal experience, but
Speaker 1: you mentioned the nine to eleven program. Can you share
Speaker 1: what you were doing?
Speaker 5: Sure?
Speaker 4: Yes, So after my psychiatry residency training, I was recruited
Speaker 4: for this role, so it was my first job, and
Speaker 4: I became the medical director of the nine to eleven
Speaker 4: Mental Health program at NYU. So we saw people from
Speaker 4: all walks of life, all backgrounds. You could have been
Speaker 4: the fee Wall Street you know, billionaire, or you could
Speaker 4: have been involved with rescue, recovery, clean up, first responders,
Speaker 4: people from different parts of the world, and everybody was
Speaker 4: the same because so many people were affected. They saw
Speaker 4: and witnessed people jumping out of the towers, they got injured,
Speaker 4: they had asthma, medical problems, PTSD, anxiety, depression, lost loved ones,
Speaker 4: lost coworkers, lost homes, spaces.
Speaker 5: So I really saw like the depths of.
Speaker 4: Depravity in terms of terrorism and what it tries to
Speaker 4: do chip away your morale. But I saw also the
Speaker 4: heights of humanity of how much love that New Yorkers
Speaker 4: had for one another. The whole country really came together
Speaker 4: on this of how do we help one another? So
Speaker 4: to me, that was the most beautiful takeaway is the
Speaker 4: resilience of the human spirit and the capacity to really
Speaker 4: take care of our fellow citizens. And that was so beautiful,
Speaker 4: and so I hung on to that because I'm like,
Speaker 4: you can dwell in the negativity or you can dwell
Speaker 4: in possibility.
Speaker 5: Which one is it going to be.
Speaker 1: I love that you say possibility because there's a hope
Speaker 1: there WI, which indicates a look toward the future. And
Speaker 1: to me, that's a part of optimism. Now I can
Speaker 1: imagine people at the other end of this conversation thinking,
Speaker 1: you know, it's really hard to be optimistic when the
Speaker 1: world feels really heavy or challenging or sad. But the
Speaker 1: thing about your work is that you spent your career
Speaker 1: working with trauma survivors. Their lives are heavy and challenging
Speaker 1: and sometimes sad. But you say that you learned something
Speaker 1: firsthand from them. What is that through line?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: So, you know, I feel like a lot of times
Speaker 4: when we are sad and feeling depressed, our tendency is
Speaker 4: to ruminate and to kind of become very self absorbed.
Speaker 4: And I feel like, if you were to ask me why,
Speaker 4: as a society we're so unhappy, I would say because
Speaker 4: we are extremely self absorbed, and really, yes, and everything
Speaker 4: about our culture is making us that way, And like
Speaker 4: the pressure to succeed, the pressure to look good like God,
Speaker 4: forbid you age. But whatever it is, it just pulls
Speaker 4: you back inward and makes you alienated and disconnected from
Speaker 4: the people around you. And what I learned this patient
Speaker 4: that I worked with, she was in her sixties, and
Speaker 4: she saw all of the horrific tragedies of that day.
Speaker 4: She was physically injured herself. She helped a few people
Speaker 4: get up and kind of save their life, if you will.
Speaker 4: She lost co workers, and yet here she would always
Speaker 4: come to our program year after year as part of
Speaker 4: his screening, and we would screen her for depression anxiety,
Speaker 4: but she never met criteria enough to come into our
Speaker 4: mental health program. But I'd see her in the hallways
Speaker 4: and one day I had to ask her. I'm like,
Speaker 4: what brings you here? What are you doing? Like you're
Speaker 4: not here for any mental health issues. She's like, no,
Speaker 4: I'm accompanying X y Z patients. I'm here to give
Speaker 4: them support because of they have panic disorder. They can't
Speaker 4: ride the subways. And I was like, what keeps you
Speaker 4: so happy? How do you get out of bed every
Speaker 4: morning seeing what you saw? And she said to me,
Speaker 4: your name was Teresa, and she told me in Spanish,
Speaker 4: She's like me proposito my purpose. And I was like wow,
Speaker 4: like that was so profound to me.
Speaker 1: Doctor Varmo. We need to go to a quick break,
Speaker 1: but when we come back, we're going to dive into
Speaker 1: your book's eight pillars, one of which you just mentioned purpose.
Speaker 1: We're back. I'm here with doctor su Varma, and we're
Speaker 1: talking about purpose. Doctor Varma, that word is so weighted
Speaker 1: in our culture. Everybody's talking about how do I find
Speaker 1: my purpose? What is my purpose? Talk to me about
Speaker 1: the link between optimism and purpose.
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm playing with the words. A quote that I
Speaker 4: heard was that your purpose is your soul's way of.
Speaker 5: Engaging in the world.
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that.
Speaker 4: And then what I added to that is in a
Speaker 4: way that is aligned with your own interests, hobbies, values
Speaker 4: and talents. And so the key is that a purpose
Speaker 4: is not something out there to be found, right, It's
Speaker 4: something that exists within you. And if you can't find it,
Speaker 4: you have to create it. It's your job to create it.
Speaker 4: That is why you are here, right, to find meaning
Speaker 4: and purpose. But the best way to find meaning and
Speaker 4: purpose is in some form of.
Speaker 5: Service for other people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that is the antidote to all of the
Speaker 4: unhappiness that is existing. I mean, I can tell you
Speaker 4: this from twenty years of clinical experience that in the
Speaker 4: depths of depression, the last thing a person has the
Speaker 4: energy for, or bandwidth for, they think at least, is
Speaker 4: to help another person. And the help can be so small.
Speaker 4: It could be like just checking in on a friend.
Speaker 4: And if you're like, but I'm depressed and I'm lonely
Speaker 4: and no one's checking in on me. By flipping the script,
Speaker 4: when you provide service to someone in some way, in
Speaker 4: some form, all of a sudden, it gives you a
Speaker 4: sense of agency. I'm good at something mattering, somebody needs
Speaker 4: me belonging right, and that is what is lost when
Speaker 4: we're feeling sad and down and depressed.
Speaker 1: You're hitting on something that I'm almost embarrassed to admit
Speaker 1: I was reading your book. You talk about service so much,
Speaker 1: and you say that you're not always supposed to find
Speaker 1: purpose within your job. Sometimes it's outside of that. And like,
Speaker 1: I work so many hours a week, how am I
Speaker 1: supposed to even find an hour to go and dedicate
Speaker 1: my time like I need to sleep. Yes, but you're right,
Speaker 1: it fills you up so like the burnout actually comes
Speaker 1: from that lack of joy that lack of purpose.
Speaker 4: Yes, but you know, Danielle, you can find purpose. And
Speaker 4: I talk about that like with they call it job
Speaker 4: crafting or role remake or just in general, finding the
Speaker 4: joy and the purpose and the help that you're providing
Speaker 4: in the work that you're already doing. Like you don't
Speaker 4: have to go I don't know, to a soup kitchen
Speaker 4: or a shelter to make a difference, right Like you're
Speaker 4: making impact right here, like by providing information, your own expertise,
Speaker 4: your humor. It's like sometimes finding purpose in the work
Speaker 4: that you're already doing. So like if you're working a
Speaker 4: corporate job, what can you do a lot of times
Speaker 4: people will call me and they'll be like, I'm not
Speaker 4: in HR, I'm not in wellness, I'm in finance. But
Speaker 4: as a volunteer role, I've taken on like the corporation's
Speaker 4: wellness week talk and I'm putting together or the happy
Speaker 4: hour or the company parties or whatever bringing people together.
Speaker 4: So there's simple ways that within the job that you're
Speaker 4: already doing.
Speaker 1: I really like that. Do you find that in your work?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I mean I feel so grateful, you know, I feel
Speaker 4: like call I feel like it's a mission, like it's
Speaker 4: something outside of myself. I have to say, like, it's
Speaker 4: almost like, you know, not to get like so woo
Speaker 4: woo here, but I feel.
Speaker 1: Like we're a woo woo podcast.
Speaker 4: I feel like I was born to do this, you know,
Speaker 4: like I just and it was maybe easier because I
Speaker 4: grew up in a family that was very mission oriented.
Speaker 4: You know what was hard for me, Daniel, It's so
Speaker 4: interesting the flip side of purpose and having so much
Speaker 4: of it that you're dripping in it is that then
Speaker 4: you don't always prioritize yourself, right, And that is something
Speaker 4: I have to learn the hard way.
Speaker 1: When you say the hard way, what do you mean?
Speaker 5: Are you ready to hear my story?
Speaker 3: Lease?
Speaker 4: So here, I was in the midst of my residency,
Speaker 4: and you know, I remember when I interviewed for this program,
Speaker 4: they were like that you will be in the trenches, right,
Speaker 4: so you're going to be working with the wealthiest of
Speaker 4: the wealthiest and the poorest of the poor and everyone
Speaker 4: in between. And I was like, sign me up, you know,
Speaker 4: but I didn't know what I was getting myself into.
Speaker 4: We were working one hundred hours a week and then
Speaker 4: in the midst of all of that I get a
Speaker 4: call that my mom was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer. Now,
Speaker 4: for the most part, it is treatable, right, except for
Speaker 4: the fact that she had an underlying heart condition and
Speaker 4: she couldn't get chemotherapy. Now, no one wanted to treat her.
Speaker 4: So now, in addition to running around between five hospitals
Speaker 4: of where I'm working, I'm now running around to hospitals
Speaker 4: with her to see who would treat her. And I
Speaker 4: started having these medical symptoms right and where my legs
Speaker 4: were shaking and weak, and I didn't know what was
Speaker 4: going on, and I was putting it off. And then
Speaker 4: finally when I sought treatment, the neurologist was like, after
Speaker 4: all these tests, you're totally fine, And I was like,
Speaker 4: but I'm not. I'm experiencing like symptoms, physical physical symptoms
Speaker 4: right and to the point where like it was hard
Speaker 4: to stand to walk. And what I realized then and
Speaker 4: now is that the body expresses what the mind cannot.
Speaker 4: And so my body was manifesting all this stress of
Speaker 4: what's going to happen to my mom, Is she going
Speaker 4: to be okay? Again? That catastrophizing, right, and the mind
Speaker 4: going to the worst place scenario, and feeling weak, and
Speaker 4: I realized that my home culture was all about we
Speaker 4: take care of other people, we are strong, we don't
Speaker 4: seek help.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: So what I realized after going to therapy is that
Speaker 4: I'm not saying it was so hard for me to
Speaker 4: say me first, or wanting to take up space. It's
Speaker 4: not saying me first, it's saying me too, like that
Speaker 4: I get to I deserve to have a scene at
Speaker 4: the table to prioritize my own wellness, which is not
Speaker 4: something I did coming from a South Asian background, you know,
Speaker 4: the daughter that handled everything also being a physician, like
Speaker 4: I became her physician in some way like general practitioners.
Speaker 5: So I learned a lot.
Speaker 4: And I talk about this in the Pillar of Pride,
Speaker 4: which is really about self compassion and how like we
Speaker 4: focus so much on self esteem. Yeah, and the problem
Speaker 4: with that is that self esteem is only as good
Speaker 4: as long as you're performing and you're achieving and you're
Speaker 4: doing well, and when things are not going right in
Speaker 4: your life, self esteem tanks.
Speaker 1: This was the most surprising part of your book for me. Really. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've been obsessed with confidence for a long time because
Speaker 1: I felt like a confident kid and I saw the
Speaker 1: difference between my friends who felt confident and those who didn't.
Speaker 1: And I felt really grateful for my parents for instilling
Speaker 1: that in me. So I couldn't. I was like shocked, like,
Speaker 1: why doesn't she like self esteem? What is better than
Speaker 1: self esteem? Self worth and self compassion? Right?
Speaker 4: Because self compassion does a few things. It normalizes what
Speaker 4: you're feeling. Yeah, right, and so you don't go down
Speaker 4: the trap of shame and blame.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: And shame is a precursor to depression. And it is
Speaker 4: a slope, slippery slope that turns you inwards and says
Speaker 4: not just I did a bad thing, It says I'm
Speaker 4: a bad person. There's a character assassination involved when they're shame. Guilt,
Speaker 4: on the other hand, isn't as bad because it focuses
Speaker 4: towards reparation. Okay, I did something bad. What can I
Speaker 4: do to fix it? Right? So guilt is better than shame, right,
Speaker 4: But in extreme amounts, even guilt isn't great. But what
Speaker 4: self compassion says is first thing is observed. What be
Speaker 4: mindful of the negative emotions or thoughts that you're having.
Speaker 4: And then there's an acceptance part. Right, And I added
Speaker 4: the part where you then move forward and you make
Speaker 4: a plan. And they've done so many studies on self
Speaker 4: compassion that shows over and over again that if you
Speaker 4: do this like three step five minute exercise, okay, observe
Speaker 4: mindful observation of the negative thoughts except and then what
Speaker 4: I love is this idea of common humanity is that
Speaker 4: I'm not the only one who's been through this, right,
Speaker 4: And they showed that with parents who were just experiencing stress,
Speaker 4: by doing this exercise, their anxiety calms down. And also students,
Speaker 4: if they're failing an exam, they do this ten minute
Speaker 4: compassion exercise like nothing else. They didn't study anymore, they
Speaker 4: take the test again, they do better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you changed my mind. I was really grateful for
Speaker 1: that mention because I think the self esteem part is
Speaker 1: sort of the armor that I had around me, and
Speaker 1: through therapy, I've learned way more self compassion. And the
Speaker 1: thing that has I think changed my life the most
Speaker 1: is that when you give yourself more compassion or you
Speaker 1: judge yourself less, you're actually able to give more compassion
Speaker 1: to others, judge others less. Yeah, it all starts inward,
Speaker 1: and you're giving other people a gift. Yes, you have
Speaker 1: been an expert on so many talk shows. What's a
Speaker 1: part of your book that people haven't touched on that
Speaker 1: you think is really important.
Speaker 4: You know, one thing that I'm really passionate about is
Speaker 4: just the idea of where we're going as a society,
Speaker 4: and I'm really concerned about it. There's something called the
Speaker 4: shallowing hypothesis, which is that our relationships are not going
Speaker 4: as deep as they used to.
Speaker 1: I have, so I have a whole thing on this.
Speaker 1: Oh tell me, because I'm obsessed with questions. I think
Speaker 1: questions are a love language, and it's really about presence.
Speaker 1: To me, a question is saying I'd rather be here
Speaker 1: with you than anybody else.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 1: And I think what you're hitting on is this high communication,
Speaker 1: low connection world. Yes, yes, And what did you call it?
Speaker 4: The shallowing ye shallowing, shallowing hypothesis, And you know, there's
Speaker 4: a lot of research behind it. But they're showing that,
Speaker 4: like everything is getting dumbed down. And actually there was
Speaker 4: an interesting article that was, like, even our lyrics in songs,
Speaker 4: the words have become simpler. And not only are the
Speaker 4: words simpler, they're fewer. It's the same repetitive stuff. And
Speaker 4: this is not even ai. This is just songwriting. And
Speaker 4: also the lyrics are more angry. I thought this was interesting,
Speaker 4: and more self obsessed. This is these are the three takeaways.
Speaker 4: And I was like, and they're like, this is a
Speaker 4: reflection of who we are.
Speaker 1: More angry, more self obsessed, and simpler.
Speaker 4: And simpler, and like just this idea of are like
Speaker 4: the mere presence of a phone on a dinner table
Speaker 4: already signals that the conversation isn't going to go deep.
Speaker 4: It's a predictor because you're already anticipating some sort of interruption,
Speaker 4: and there's a lot of anxiety of like, oh my god,
Speaker 4: this person has to leave or something's going to happen.
Speaker 1: Yes, you feel like they're busy. Maybe I shouldn't be here.
Speaker 1: Is this too much for them?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 4: And so I talk about like how to this idea
Speaker 4: of emotional attunement, which is like being in tune with
Speaker 4: the person's emotions. So I love that you ask the
Speaker 4: questions and.
Speaker 1: You kind of I think sometimes we forget to ask
Speaker 1: big questions to people closest to usk, as we ask
Speaker 1: how's your day? You know, we're in the minutia.
Speaker 4: I think that the shollowing hypoth is what's happening to
Speaker 4: our society and the fact that everything is like contact less, Like, yes,
Speaker 4: we have more convenience like the Amazon, Instacar and all
Speaker 4: that stuff zoom, but we're missing so many of those
Speaker 4: built in interactions like just signing a credit card slip
Speaker 4: back in the day. So that's why I like, I
Speaker 4: love when I see things coming out of Europe where
Speaker 4: they're having walking clubs where people, you know, where the
Speaker 4: point is the talking, the point is the social interaction. Here,
Speaker 4: I feel like you have to dupe people into they're like, no,
Speaker 4: thank you, I don't need social interaction. Yes, but I'll
Speaker 4: come for the biking, but don't make me talk or interact,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think they're missing it. Yeah, they're missing
Speaker 1: the point for everybody listening, including myself. What are four
Speaker 1: things that practical optimists do?
Speaker 4: So there are four things that practical optimists do every day,
Speaker 4: which is make time for the four ms. So those
Speaker 4: are mastery. And the key here is that you don't
Speaker 4: have to be a master to experience mastery. It could
Speaker 4: be a sport, it could be a hobby, but the
Speaker 4: idea that you're getting better at something progress yes, and
Speaker 4: that creates creating a flow state in your brain where
Speaker 4: you're totally immersed in something. So take on something that's
Speaker 4: just for you, doesn't have to be for anyone else. Mindfulness,
Speaker 4: and this doesn't have to be a sixty minute meditation.
Speaker 4: It could literally be one minute. Listen to an app
Speaker 4: comap or whatever it is on YouTube. But the key
Speaker 4: here is to do something single mindedly. Even if you're
Speaker 4: washing dishes, just focus just on that. You can listen
Speaker 4: to this podcast while you're doing the dishes, but otherwise,
Speaker 4: just be focused. The other one is meaningful engagement and
Speaker 4: in whatever way that you want to go deeper. Do
Speaker 4: you want to do the fifty two questions? If there
Speaker 4: was a podcast that you listen to share it with
Speaker 4: people something this made me think of you? You know that,
Speaker 4: I think that's really key every day, And to do
Speaker 4: like once a week face to face to meet someone
Speaker 4: in person, I think that's really key.
Speaker 5: And then movement.
Speaker 4: We don't realize that the benefit of movement in every
Speaker 4: aspect of our life, not only cognitive health, bone health,
Speaker 4: muscle health, all of that. Right, if you feel like
Speaker 4: I don't know what my purpose is, do one workout
Speaker 4: session that one workout session is enough to on some level,
Speaker 4: decrease anxiety and depression, but also boost yoursel sense of
Speaker 4: purpose in life.
Speaker 5: I mean, how awesome is.
Speaker 1: That Every time I've been really sad, all I know
Speaker 1: is to turn to to go workout, and I have
Speaker 1: my mom to thank for that.
Speaker 5: That's amazing.
Speaker 1: But I don't quite understand that link. Why does it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: give us it makes me feel purposeful?
Speaker 4: Yes, totally so on one level. Okay, so it's boosting
Speaker 4: the endorphins, it's boosting dopamine. You even your body image
Speaker 4: changes just from work one workout. You're the same person
Speaker 4: from forty five minutes ago, more or less. Yeah, plus
Speaker 4: one workout. Right, so you're like, I didn't like suddenly
Speaker 4: grow a six pack or what, you know, just one
Speaker 4: forty five minute workout, but you feel so productive. You're
Speaker 4: like I did something really hard today. And it's that
Speaker 4: sense of agency, like I can, I am capable. So
Speaker 4: I feel like the takeaway. So these four habits, they
Speaker 4: are really like habits unto themselves, but you don't realize
Speaker 4: they are also habits that beget other habits because once
Speaker 4: you do them, every single day, you connected with a friend, right,
Speaker 4: you did the workout, you did some form of meditation
Speaker 4: or whatever it is. You got better at a scale
Speaker 4: or a hobby, and hey, you can combine all four
Speaker 4: of them by pick one class, go with a friend.
Speaker 4: You've hit off, checked off, meaningful engagement. You've done the movement.
Speaker 4: You can do some mindfulness. If it's yoga mastery, you're
Speaker 4: getting better at it. But then you come back in
Speaker 4: one hour you could hit all four and then the
Speaker 4: rest of your day you're like, I'm an awesome person.
Speaker 3: Bring it on.
Speaker 4: So you're going to start opening bills that you've been
Speaker 4: putting aside. You're going to open mails. You're going to
Speaker 4: start applying for a new job. You might take on
Speaker 4: a new venture. You might plan a trip, you might
Speaker 4: ask for the promotion, you might ask somebody out on
Speaker 4: a date. Like it's going to give it's going to
Speaker 4: refuel you.
Speaker 1: It's the objects in motion. Stay in motion.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. I love that you said that.
Speaker 1: Okay, what is one thing we can all do today
Speaker 1: to increase our optimism?
Speaker 4: Learn to reframe any negative situation. So bringing it back
Speaker 4: to me talking about my dad, like, yes, you can
Speaker 4: feel sorry for yourself. The world sometimes feels like it's
Speaker 4: on fire because it kind of is right, like, with
Speaker 4: all that's happening in the world, it's so easy to
Speaker 4: get pulled down and drag down in the negativity, and
Speaker 4: you can just ask yourself, how can I be a
Speaker 4: more compassionate version of myself? How can I give myself grace?
Speaker 4: How can I give other people grace?
Speaker 1: Doctor Varma, I knew that this conversation was going to
Speaker 1: be wonderful, but I didn't know just how wonderful. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for this.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you so much for having me now.
Speaker 4: I'm such a pleasure to meet you in person.
Speaker 1: Doctor Sue Varma is a psychiatrist and cognitive behavioral therapist
Speaker 1: and the author of the book Practical Optimism. It's hard
Speaker 1: to pick just one takeaway from this conversation because I
Speaker 1: think doctor Varmah actually illuminated a lot. But one of
Speaker 1: the lessons that stuck with me was not so much
Speaker 1: about her work or her research or her study, which
Speaker 1: was all fascinating. It was how she chose to live
Speaker 1: her life. And it's that optimism is a muscle, not
Speaker 1: a mindset. I think that it's something we take for granted.
Speaker 1: We think we should just be optimistic, but there's all
Speaker 1: these practices and habits we can put in place to
Speaker 1: have more agency over it.
Speaker 2: I'm embarrassed to admit how old I was when I
Speaker 2: actually learned this and put it into practice. I don't
Speaker 2: think it's something that most people grow up learning or
Speaker 2: being taught.
Speaker 1: We don't think about it. We just take it for granted.
Speaker 1: I think, what do you do to be more optimistic?
Speaker 2: I think it's about gratitude. It's about perspective. I think
Speaker 2: my family really helps me with that. And this idea
Speaker 2: of remembering when you wanted what you have now finding
Speaker 2: small ways to remind yourself of that every day.
Speaker 1: That sounds like gratitude's big for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that makes me more optimistic.
Speaker 1: I love that you mentioned family. I think family makes
Speaker 1: me more optimistic too. And seeing older relatives and they've
Speaker 1: gone through hard things and they make it through. That
Speaker 1: makes me more optimistic. Like having that totem poll almost Yeah.
Speaker 3: And friends too, friends that make you laugh.
Speaker 1: Yeah. She mentions connection a lot, which is important, those girlfriends,
Speaker 1: those dinner table conversations that just make everything hard feel
Speaker 1: like it's gonna be okay, okay. Tomorrow, we're doing something
Speaker 1: a little different. We're putting on a memorial for The
Speaker 1: girl Boss. Culture critic Lee Stein helps us lay her
Speaker 1: to rest oof.
Speaker 3: I got a lot to say about her. Not Lee Stein,
Speaker 3: but the girl Boss.
Speaker 2: Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can
Speaker 2: find me your girl Simone boys on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1: I'm Danielle robe at Danielle robe on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1: That's ro b A.
Speaker 2: Y See you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.
Speaker 1: Bye besties.