WEBVTT - From a Nightmarish Journey to the American Dream

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Business Week with Karl Messer and Tim

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<v Speaker 1>Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio. Well, a new book out has

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<v Speaker 1>received praise from Bill Gates, Al Khan of Khan Academy.

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<v Speaker 1>We've had him on a bunch and many more. It

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<v Speaker 1>is the story of one Afghan girl growing up in

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<v Speaker 1>Afghanistan under Taliban rule, a rule that denies girls above

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<v Speaker 1>a certain age and education. Now the book, though, really

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<v Speaker 1>the bigger story of all girls in Afghanistan and what

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<v Speaker 1>they face. So with us to help tell that story

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<v Speaker 1>and talk about the books. Malina Kapor, founder of Women

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<v Speaker 1>in National Security at Stanford University. Her new book Defiant

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<v Speaker 1>Dreams the journey of an Afghan girl who risked everything

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<v Speaker 1>for education, and the subject of her book is Solamafo's

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<v Speaker 1>also with us both, by the way on Zoom from Boston. She,

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<v Speaker 1>as we said, is what the book is all about. Welcome, Welcome,

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to both of you, and Molina. I want to

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<v Speaker 1>start with you. You and Sola came together right during the

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<v Speaker 1>COVID lockdown. Talk to us about that discovery.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, So, Sola and I first met about three years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>As you mentioned, it was during COVID. So we didn't

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<v Speaker 2>even have a chance to meet in person, but Sola

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<v Speaker 2>started telling me stories from her life and I started

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<v Speaker 2>writing them and that became the basis for this book,

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<v Speaker 2>Defiant Dreams. And initially I was just drawn.

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<v Speaker 1>To her incredibly during COVID though is it just random.

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<v Speaker 2>We were introduced by a mutual friend, okay, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think you know her story is incredibly inspiring. It's the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that she started learning secretly in Afghanistan when she

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<v Speaker 2>didn't even know how to add and subtract at the

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<v Speaker 2>age of sixteen, and from that she was able to

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<v Speaker 2>make it to the United States, where she's now a

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<v Speaker 2>quantum physics researcher at TUTS And I wanted to be

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<v Speaker 2>a part of amplifying that story and amplifying the stories

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<v Speaker 2>of all the obstacles that women and girls have to

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<v Speaker 2>overcome in Afghanistan today.

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<v Speaker 3>So tell us about your story what it was like

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<v Speaker 3>growing up in Afghanistan, because I know you studied English

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<v Speaker 3>and maths secretly, and then you also managed to cross

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<v Speaker 3>a dangerous border into Pakistan to actually take the SAT test,

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<v Speaker 3>So you.

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<v Speaker 4>Know, you know, as you said, at age sixteen, I

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<v Speaker 4>did not know how to add and subtract, and that

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<v Speaker 4>was because when I was eleven years old, I was

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<v Speaker 4>forced to stop going to school. A group of men

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<v Speaker 4>came to our door and threatened us if continued going

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<v Speaker 4>to school. And from that day on, the restriction of

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<v Speaker 4>my life only continued to increase. I left home only

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<v Speaker 4>a couple of times a year, and whenever I did,

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<v Speaker 4>I had to wear a suffocating burk that covered me

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<v Speaker 4>from head to toe. And meanwhile, my brothers were going

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<v Speaker 4>to school, and they were thriving academically, and I was

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<v Speaker 4>deeply jealous of their lives. Their lives seemed to be

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<v Speaker 4>moving forward, and my own seemed stuck.

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<v Speaker 3>So you had like basically like a lack of access

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<v Speaker 3>to that education.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, as a woman. And then so this is a

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<v Speaker 4>you know, I start at age fourteen, I began teaching

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<v Speaker 4>myself English. At that time I did not know, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>I would listen to four hours an hour and BBC.

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<v Speaker 4>I would understand a word or two. And so Devine

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<v Speaker 4>Dream is the story of how I went from that.

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<v Speaker 4>Knowing how to add some chock at age sixteen, so

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<v Speaker 4>all the way now coming to the US and being

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<v Speaker 4>a researcher of Tought University, developing quantum algorithms.

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<v Speaker 1>And I want to stress what goes on in Afghanistan

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to women specifically. I know there's been

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of reporting about it, and we have certainly

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<v Speaker 1>talked about it, but either of you, you know, or

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<v Speaker 1>so to talk a little bit more about what it

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<v Speaker 1>is like to grow up as a young woman in Afghanistan,

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<v Speaker 1>especially under Taliban rule.

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<v Speaker 4>So I think especially I think now that especially like

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<v Speaker 4>in twenty twenty one, Taliban came back into power. I think,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, after the US troops withdraw there's this striking

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<v Speaker 4>visual representation that emerged on the streets and on TV

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<v Speaker 4>of what women had and what was taken away. You know,

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<v Speaker 4>there's murals that celebrated women's achievements over twenty years were

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<v Speaker 4>either painted black or defaced. On TV two, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>women were presenting shows and overnight they just disappeared, leaving

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<v Speaker 4>only men to fill the screen. And so now there's

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<v Speaker 4>been now fifty eights in place to infringe every rights

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<v Speaker 4>women had. They can't go to school, they can't work,

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<v Speaker 4>and even simple things like going to a park is banned.

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<v Speaker 4>And basically now you know, it's it's just an attempt

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<v Speaker 4>to erase women from the public sphere in being a

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<v Speaker 4>member of the society.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I would add to that too that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in the United States, we had this understanding of the

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<v Speaker 2>Taliban in twenty twenty one as maybe they were going

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<v Speaker 2>to be a Taliban two dot zero that was somehow

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<v Speaker 2>going to join the international order that was going to

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<v Speaker 2>guarantee at least some basic rights for women. And that

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<v Speaker 2>was the story of the Talban that stayed in the

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<v Speaker 2>news for as long as Afghanistan was in the news.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's only once the world's eyes turned away that

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<v Speaker 2>the Taliban started to take away core freedoms for women,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the right to assemble publicly, the right to

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<v Speaker 2>go to school, the right to work. And so now

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<v Speaker 2>we're actually at the two year anniversary of that Baliban takeover,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it's more important than ever to remember

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<v Speaker 2>that we need to pay attention to those stories, because

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<v Speaker 2>when we normalize what's happening to the women of Afghanistan,

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<v Speaker 2>we all really lose something.

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<v Speaker 4>Talk to us.

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<v Speaker 3>About the moment you started realizing that you could get

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<v Speaker 3>out of that situation and come to the US.

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<v Speaker 4>So, you know, my grandfather was self educated, and so

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<v Speaker 4>when I forced to stop going to school, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>for me, the world around seemed dark, and it's in

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<v Speaker 4>those moments, like the words of my grandfather spoke to

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<v Speaker 4>me very intimately, you know, he said, like knowing English

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<v Speaker 4>is like opening a window for the world. And initially

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<v Speaker 4>I just wanted to be free intellectually, but over time

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<v Speaker 4>that led to an actual freedom to come to the

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<v Speaker 4>US and you know, and do what I wanted to do,

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<v Speaker 4>to do research and being being free.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you feel free now?

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, I don't think we can ever be absolutely free,

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<v Speaker 4>but yes, in some measures. Yes.

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<v Speaker 3>It's interesting because I know you were writing about and

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<v Speaker 3>also talking about in this about how your mother warned

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<v Speaker 3>you as a young girl not to laugh to draw

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<v Speaker 3>attention to yourself. Do you feel like you're able to

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<v Speaker 3>do that now?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, of course.

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<v Speaker 4>I Mean the thing is when I came initially, just

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<v Speaker 4>I felt like I was my loving your old self

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<v Speaker 4>again because after my after age love and for me,

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<v Speaker 4>there's all there's restrictions, you know, I have to be

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<v Speaker 4>careful as a woman and what to do and what

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<v Speaker 4>not to do. And so when I came to the US,

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<v Speaker 4>it just all those you know, restrictions just evaporated, and

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<v Speaker 4>I just it just felt like, you know, I felt

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<v Speaker 4>like those I just felt like I was now growing

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<v Speaker 4>up again from that eleven year old self to now,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, as a twenty year old. And yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>I think.

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<v Speaker 2>That story of how Sola took the SAT really highlights

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<v Speaker 2>the differences between the US and Afghanistan, because here in

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<v Speaker 2>the US that's just an exam we take for granted.

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<v Speaker 2>But in order for Sola to take that test, she

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<v Speaker 2>had to cross into Pakistan, one of the cross one

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<v Speaker 2>of the most dangerous borders in the world, a border

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<v Speaker 2>where people are routinely beaten with electric cables, where men

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<v Speaker 2>and women have to cross separately, where you have to

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<v Speaker 2>take multiple vehicles just to get across, And she managed

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<v Speaker 2>to get into one of the last testing spots in Karachi,

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<v Speaker 2>and that became her tic get out. But of course

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<v Speaker 2>you have to think about now all the girls in

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<v Speaker 2>Afghanistan today who are banned from education, and just think

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<v Speaker 2>about how those kinds of insurmountable barriers are what they

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<v Speaker 2>face when they try to get an education.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's what I want to ask you, Sola. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>would you say that most of the young women in Afghanistan,

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<v Speaker 1>they want to get an education and want to be

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<v Speaker 1>doing what you're doing, of course.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean there are so many you know, now there's

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<v Speaker 4>some secret schools there, online school and you know, I

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<v Speaker 4>hear stories of women saying like, as long as we breathe,

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<v Speaker 4>we're going to be ed. We're going to educate it.

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<v Speaker 4>We're not going to let this, you know, obstacles just

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<v Speaker 4>suffocate us. But it's really hard, you know, there's so

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<v Speaker 4>many even you know, for example, my story, even though

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<v Speaker 4>I was educated myself, then you know, taking you know,

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<v Speaker 4>showing to the world. If I wanted to apply to

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<v Speaker 4>schools in the US, I had to take the SAT

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<v Speaker 4>which is not available, and of honest, I had school

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<v Speaker 4>across another country. And then their second thing is the WISA,

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<v Speaker 4>which is also again impossible to do. You know. I've

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<v Speaker 4>recently heard the story of a woman, a young Afghan woman,

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<v Speaker 4>she got accepted to Fulbright Scholarship, but the US denied USA.

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<v Speaker 4>So I think once it's the formal schooling just goes away,

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<v Speaker 4>there's so many other obstacles that emerges.

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<v Speaker 1>Molena just got about thirty seconds left here. What do

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<v Speaker 1>you hope that people read this book and then they

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<v Speaker 1>come away with what.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's important for everyone to remember you know

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<v Speaker 2>that this is a story of Sola, and it's a

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<v Speaker 2>story that's deeply unique to the struggles and obstacles that

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<v Speaker 2>she was able to overcome, but in many respects, it's

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<v Speaker 2>also the story now of an entire generation of girls

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<v Speaker 2>and women in Afghanistan. You know, it's estimated that there

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<v Speaker 2>are two point five million girls right now who are

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<v Speaker 2>deprived the basic human right to education. And so really

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<v Speaker 2>our message with this book is don't turn away, don't

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<v Speaker 2>look away from these stories.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm glad we were able to tell Sola's story,

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<v Speaker 1>and thank you Molena for joining us and bringing us

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<v Speaker 1>this book. Founder of Women in National Security at Stanford University,

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<v Speaker 1>Molena Kapor, thank you so much that new book, Defiant

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<v Speaker 1>Dreams the journey of an Afghan girl who risked everything

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<v Speaker 1>for education. And of course our thanks to the subject

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<v Speaker 1>of that book, Solamafu's both of them joining us from

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<v Speaker 1>Zoom in Boston.

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<v Speaker 3>It's amazing teaching herself English math and calculus and physics

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<v Speaker 3>as well.