WEBVTT - #429 Jason Flom with Greg Brown 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:04.800 In the early morning hours of Valentine's Day in nineteen 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:08.000 ninety five, the Pittsburgh Fire Department responded to a blaze 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:11.880 on Briceland Street. Darlene Buckner and her teenage son, Greg 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.440 Brown joined their safely evacuated family members as the raging 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:21.280 inferno took the lives of three firefighters. Atf Investigators suspected arson, 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:23.880 and a lab tech reported that two of the thirteen 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:28.159 samples from the home were positive for gasoline. However, a 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.160 gas powered mower stored in the basement may have been 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:34.960 the source. Reward money brought forth two alleged witnesses to 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:39.280 confirm what investigators had suspected. That Darlene Buckner and Greg 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.360 Brown intentionally set the blaze to collect on the twenty 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.400 thousand dollars insurance policy, a dollar amount that must have 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:50.559 been incentive enough to destroy all their possessions and the 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:55.560 lives of three brave firefighters. But this is wrongful conviction. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:12.039 Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I hate wrongful convictions. I 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:15.000 hate every one of the cases that we've covered, and 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:20.759 for different reasons. But there's a particular thing that keeps 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.000 me up at night, which are cases like the one 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:28.560 that we're going to talk about today, where someone was 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:33.040 wrongfully convicted of a crime that never even happened. Today, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.440 we're going to be talking with Greg Brown, who served 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:42.119 twenty years in Pennsylvania for an accidental fire with tragic fire. Nonetheless, 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.280 three lives were lost, but there was a rush to judgment, 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:47.800 there was junk science, there was all sorts of other 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:49.919 things that you're going to hear about, and we've covered 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.840 and our Junk Science podcast. But first I want to 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:58.720 introduce Elizabeth Delosa from the Pennsylvania Innocence Project. Elizabeth, I'm 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.320 so glad you're here to the show. Thank you for 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.920 having me, and thank you for all the incredible work 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.240 that you and the team there do. And of course 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.080 now I get the privilege of interviewing man I first 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:15.280 met in Phoenix at the Innocence Network conference Greg Brown. Greg, 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:16.760 welcome to Wronful Conviction. 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:17.960 Thanks for having me. 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.880 So let's go back to simpler times, before nineteen ninety 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.760 five Valentine's Day, when this horrible event happened. What was 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:27.799 it like did you grow up in Pittsburgh and what 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:29.960 was your life like? Did you have brothers and sisters, 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:31.840 did you have a happy childhood. 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.120 Yes, yeah, I grew up in Pittsburgh. 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.239 You know, my mom was a single mother until about 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.560 the age of seven, and she met my stepfather. I 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.440 have a stepsister that's two years older than me. Stepbrother 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:45.480 is about four years older than me. So it was 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.760 a nice blended family. And my mom didn't have another 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.400 child until nineteen ninety three, so it was happy. 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:52.639 Man. 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:57.119 My stepdad was great, good father, figure, great provider, good guy, 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.040 straight lace, everything by the book, you know, never break 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:02.400 the law. 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:04.919 It was good. We had a good upbringing. 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.040 So you were a typical teenager, just seventeen years old 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.360 when this tragic fire happened on the night of February 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.519 thirteenth into the fourteenth of nineteen eighty five. 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.160 The next day was obviously it was Valentine's Day, so 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.680 I was excited when school was gonna have a dance, 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:23.440 you know. So like that night, I was over my 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.320 one of my older cousin's house, playing Matten like the 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:28.840 kids do now on the Sega Genesis, and I'm my 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:31.560 stepfather said go to the store with mom because it's 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.040 dark out there or whatever. And my mom was cooking 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.080 for a relative had died, so she was cooking for 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.280 like a funeral of repass. And we went to John 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.080 Nagles in one location on the east side and near 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.680 our house, and it was closed, so we went to waterworks. 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.800 So we come home on Frankstown Avenue. You could look 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.120 over and see the houses and we seen fire trucks 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:55.880 and like, man, Mom, I look like our house. And 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.440 we pulled into the alleyway in between Franktown and Briceland, 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:01.720 and we were anxious. We wanted to know if our 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:04.640 family was out. And one of the firemen was on 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:06.640 the back porst to yet her out there across the 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.760 street at the neighbor's house, and and my mom was frantic. 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:12.600 The fireman just wanted her to get to call out 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:14.640 the alley ways, you know, because there's probably gonna be 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.240 more fire trucks coming. And she had to drive around. 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:20.719 You know, we seen our family. We just was the static, 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:22.960 just happy that everybody was out. You know. 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.000 Now was waiting game and you're hoping they put the 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:27.599 fire out. 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.200 As soon as possible and and maybe you could get 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.719 whatever you can out of the house. And the more 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.359 time it goes on, it's obvious that the house is 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.680 going to get destroyed. And I went over to one 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.120 of the firemen and they I said, as fire as over. 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.520 They said, yeah, boy, we lost three of our guys. 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.640 I'm like what, so, yeah, three firemen died. I'm like, man, 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:48.760 you know, and then one of them said, like, I 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.240 believe it was the furnace. I went back and tell 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:54.359 my family, like, man, they said three firemen that, and 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.240 my mom just just broke down, started crying and everybody 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:58.200 we was just in shock. 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:04.280 The city of Pittsburgh lost three courageous firefighters, Thomas Brooks, 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:09.640 Patty Conroy, and Mark Kalenda. So rest in peace. I 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.920 can't imagine how that news must have shaken their families 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:14.080 and the entire community. 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.880 No, this case in Pittsburgh was extremely it still is 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:22.599 highly publicized, and there was no way for anyone to 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.720 move on and including now anything Arson related to this day. 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:28.600 A lot of times this case will come up with 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.800 This case was always on the news, so. 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:35.360 You can imagine the rush to judgment to figure out 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.560 what went wrong here. And often when a death is 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.200 hard to accept, like in the case of a child 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.840 or baby, or men and women in uniform, we sometimes 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:50.479 see that same urge to blame somebody, even when there's 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:51.480 no one to blame. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:56.279 In investigating several arsen cases here in western Pennsylvania. I 0:05:56.279 --> 0:06:02.000 think one common denominator is a very quick rush to 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:09.320 judgment and determining within hours that the fire is intentionally set, 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:15.159 thereby being a crime being arson without having done the 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.799 painstaking investigation that it takes in order to rule out 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:23.560 all accidental causes. And Greg's case is no different. Nine 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:28.560 one one calls first came in around twelve twenty am 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:34.240 on the fourteenth, and by three am the Pittsburgh Fire 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:39.560 Squad Pittsburgh Police knew that they had firefighter fatalities and 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:44.520 called in the ATF in order to assist in the investigation, 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:50.120 and within hours and upon visual inspection alone, it was 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:54.120 determined that this fire had been intentionally set and that 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:59.640 set those criminal investigation gears into motion, and then once 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.760 they were started, it seems like there was no stopping them. 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.360 So the visual inspection also known as the dunk science 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.360 portion of the investigation, in which they used disproven fire 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:15.480 investigation methods using terms like alligator burn patterns or crazed glass, 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.840 et cetera. You can hear all about this, by the way, 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:20.560 and I encourage you to check it out in our 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.520 coverage of arson investigation on our series Junk Science, which 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:26.960 will be linked in the episode description. So, in an 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.600 effort to corroborate that assessment with actual science, they sent 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.640 thirteen samples from the basement, which they believe was the 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:37.440 fire's origin point. They sent those samples for testing, and 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.120 eventually the lab tech said that two of the thirteen 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.920 samples tested positive for gasoline. But there also appears to 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.160 be a perfectly logical explanation for that. 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.040 I want to just back up a little bit, because 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.840 so you're right, thirteen samples are taken, and the ATF 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:59.560 believes that a gallon of gasoline is poured onto a 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.160 pile of laundry that is in the basement, and that 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.280 is what the origin of the fire is. Right, So 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:09.440 they during the fire suppression efforts, the basement is flooded. 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.000 There's about a foot of water in the basement. And 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.080 so when they're taking these thirteen samples, the concrete, some 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:20.640 fabric samples, they're all wet, and the first samples are 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.000 one through eleven. Those are the first samples that are 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:27.040 sent to the ATF laboratory for chemical analysis. The first 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:32.160 analysis by an ATF chemist named William Canard. He says 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:37.560 negative for any traces of accelerant. That's his first report, 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.760 and we know that through discovery and through some handwritten 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.480 notes that William Canard said everything is negative. They then 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:50.160 send two additional samples twelve and thirteen, and then somehow 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:55.280 mister Caernard's original report is amended and he eventually says 0:08:55.400 --> 0:09:01.880 that Exhibit six and thirteen are positive for trace amounts 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:07.440 of gasoline. And in his testimony he never reveals that 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:13.120 his original analysis is exculpatory to greg and actually said 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:18.479 that there was no trace amounts of any accelerate, including gasoline. 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:21.679 And then another thing is there was a lawnmower in 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.720 the basement right next to this alleged a pile of 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:28.120 laundry with a gas can. That's where the family stored 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:32.320 their lawnmower. And so if there were trace amounts of gasoline, 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:36.319 which John Lentini completely refutes, having gone back and looked 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:40.119 at those comratographs, then it would have had a logical explanation. 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:44.600 And John Lentini is a legendary fire scientist, an actual 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:48.520 scientist who started off as an arson investigator, and by 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:50.880 the way, he was a true believer in the old 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:54.080 way of thinking. But he's become such an asset for 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.800 exposing this junk science for what it is junk, Unlike 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:02.880 his counterpart here, William Kinn, the same quote unquote expert 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.199 from Christine Bunch's case and so many others will have 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.520 her story linked as well. So back to the immediate 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.920 aftermath with this report from Canard, the investigators developed the 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.120 theory that you and your mom plotted to burn down 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:20.280 your own house, destroy all of your possessions, put your 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.679 whole family in danger, grave danger, and then out on 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:28.560 the street, including two toddlers no less, in the middle 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:33.840 of a Pittsburgh winter. Right at all of this to 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.880 collect on a twenty thousand dollars insurance policy, which I'm 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:41.480 guessing wouldn't cover the replacement costs of what you lost. 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:42.959 Even at a preliminary hearing. 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.360 One of the investigators outright say that they're from Homewood, 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:49.200 breustness is depressed. Are we don't believe they had over 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.240 twenty thousand dollars worth of stuff in the house? 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:53.120 So what are we supposed to believe that you had 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:56.360 seventeen thousand, nine hundred and fifty dollars worth of stuff 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:58.240 in there or something and that this was for two 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.280 thousand dollars, this great scheme. I mean, come on, this 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:03.040 is so it's so sick. 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.400 And it's important. I know, me and my mother were 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:09.640 black and the firemen were white. And I know for 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.320 a fact there's been other cases in Pittsburgh Alleghany County 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.920 alone where fire fighters have died and so caught that 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.240 the suspects were white and they didn't charge them. So 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.600 I definitely believe race played a major factor in it. 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:26.200 You know, we're gonna get to the bottom and we'll 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.000 get these guys, these this black family out of here. 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:31.840 So you and your family were under investigation and out 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.120 of a home. Where'd you go? Where did you live? 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:36.520 Ironically? 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:39.920 I moved up the street like two streets above from 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.640 this house where you could look down with my father 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:46.120 and my stepmother, And so I would walk past the house. 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:50.640 They had the house just surrounded with agents. They had 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.199 it there tight, they had it guarded like the White House, 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:56.199 and it was on the news so much had me thinking, well, 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.480 is anybody after me and my family? So you know, 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.679 I'm like I need protection? Do I need to carry gun? 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.240 I don't know what's going on. 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.120 I mean with nightly media coverage. It's not crazy to 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:09.160 think that a target had been painted on your back. 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:11.800 But the investigation wasn't keeping up with the court of 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:15.120 public opinion. There was a reasonable explanation for the alleged 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.960 presence of gasoline and Canard's report, so they needed more 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.280 to go on, and a year after the fire, the 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:26.160 ATF started offering reward money fifteen thousand dollars for information. 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.400 It was on the noon news, it was on the 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.840 five o'clock news, and it was on the six o'clock news. 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.040 This press conference issuing and publicizing this. 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.320 Reward what it sounds like a good idea on paper, 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.679 but it comes with the obvious pitfall of attracting false information, 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.400 and sure enough, one of your neighbors, Keith Wright, took debate. 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:47.520 Twelve minutes after the six o'clock news, Keith Wright walked 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.880 down to his local fire department and made a statement 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.440 a year after the fire, having never made a statement before, 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.439 saying that he saw Greg standing outside of his family's 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:02.720 home before fire park personnel got on scene. Very damaging 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.200 to Greg, because, as you know, he and his mother 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.760 have always said we arrived after fire personnel were on scene. 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.560 We were at the Giant Eagle shopping and so that 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.199 put a hole in Greg's alibi. 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:17.640 But this hole in the alibi was not quite enough 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.840 to get a warrant, so they kept going with this strategy. 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.680 One of my friends told me that he say, man, 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.280 you know, the ATF came visit me down South Carolina 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:29.960 and they offered me four thousand and they said, just 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.240 say that his mother made him do it foreign source money. 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:35.600 And I was like what he said, yeah, man. 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.480 So it appears that they didn't care if the information 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.920 was false or not. But your friend from South Carolina, 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:47.560 Raoul Gibson, stood strong. So the ATF found another taker, 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.280 which came about when you had actually followed through on 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:52.079 getting a gun. 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.520 I did end up getting in trouble with a gun, 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:57.439 you know, I had it for safety. 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.920 The summer of nineteen ninety five, he got in trouble 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.760 for the first time as a juvenile. And while you know, 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:08.320 possession of a gun is a serious juvenile offence, it's 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.920 the first time he's ever been in front of the 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:15.800 juvenile court. And instead of probation or house arrest some 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:20.040 type of like check in program, community based program, Greg 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:25.360 is sent to Vision Quest in Franklin, Pennsylvania, which is 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.400 like a wilderness slash boot camp program. So one of 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:34.840 the Pittsburgh homicide detectives tells ATF, and then ATF immediately 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:38.400 goes to the Vision Quest program and asks for all 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:44.720 of Greg's bunkmates and starts to reach out to fifteen, sixteen, 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:48.840 seventeen year olds and asking whether Greg has made any 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:53.240 inculpatory statements or is as he mentioned this or confessed 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.720 to anybody, and no one is making a statement, and 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.520 so they start to reach out to probation off for 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:04.120 each one of these kids, and the fifteen year old 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.680 in particular that does eventually end up testifying against Greg. 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:12.680 His probation officer is contacted upwards of twenty times each 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.600 and every time money is brought up by the ATF 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:19.280 and the fact that there is a reward in exchange 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:25.160 for testimony implicating Greg, and finally they have a face 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:30.440 to face with fifteen year old Ibrahim Abdullah, who only 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.400 after he is told that there is a fifteen thousand 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:37.480 dollars reward if he has information that would implicate Greg, 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:41.840 does he make a statement. And the probation officer notes 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.320 that he was really concerned about the statement particularly because 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.760 it is yes and no answers to all leading questions. 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.600 And so, did Greg Brown tell you something about this fire? Yes, sir? 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.480 Did he tell you that he started the fire? Yes, sir. 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.960 And so the fifteen year old's not offering any fact, 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.440 any new facts, any corroborating facts. He's simply answering these 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:05.240 very lading questions from the ATF. 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.480 Nevertheless, this fifteen year old, Imbrahim Abdullah, gave them what 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:12.680 they need to make arrests. You were charged with arson 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.680 and murder, and your mother, Darlene Buckner, was charged with arson, murder, 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:18.800 conspiracy and insurance fraud. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.920 I just thought I got arrested, and then I call 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.520 home and my aunt answered the phone. She said they 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.080 got your mom too. I said, what you already know? 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:31.800 You didn't do anything. Now they're arresting your mother. Basically, 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.960 they had a person saying I killed three firemen, but 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.800 I'm bragging about it. You know, they want you to 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:39.920 believe it. And I was bragging about it like it 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.600 was a cool crime. I mean, name one rap song 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:47.440 where rappers was bragging about setting fires, or a movie anything. 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.120 That's not a cool crime. It's just crazy. 0:16:50.200 --> 0:17:00.880 Man. 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:10.560 As he's preparing for testimony. Fifteen year old Ibrahim Abdullah 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.679 starts to get cold feet, and he tells the ATF agent, 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:15.800 I don't think I want to do this. I want 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.159 to back out. I don't think I want to testify. 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.399 And the ATF agent puts him in a room with 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:27.040 the surviving members of the firefighters, who really, you know, 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.360 impose upon him how important it is to them that 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.840 justice be served and what a good thing he's doing. 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:36.960 And so not only does this fifteen year old have 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.960 the motivation of fifteen thousand dollars and what it could 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.240 do for his family, and then he also has the 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.640 pressure of the ATF and the hopes of the victim's 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:46.960 families on him. 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:50.239 So this kid, Ibrahim, his cold feet seem to have 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:52.080 gotten nice and toasty all of a sudden. 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.439 And we got to give this guys proper credit. Jason 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:56.960 Wick from the ATF, and. 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:02.400 He definitely was persistent, even when he was receiving no 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:06.320 information from these children, he was not afraid to use 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.920 that financial incentive to get the statement that he wanted. 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:13.119 And I read that later on as a man, Ibraham 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.720 admitted that it went even deeper than that for him 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:17.720 with this ATF agent Jason Wick. 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:18.200 Yeah. 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.760 He later testifies that he was kind of smitten with 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.320 the ATF agent. The ATF agent, you know, helped him 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.320 with like court costs, helped him with some restitution in 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.600 his other cases, helped him obtain his birth certificate, would 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.600 take him on these rides in his car and would 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:36.960 like speed, would swear, would tell him how powerful he 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.040 is as an ATF agent. He said, you know, I 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:41.879 thought this guy was cool. I thought he was really cool. 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.800 So this kid Ibraham was charmed and incentivized, to say 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.240 the least, as was the neighbor Keith, Right, and they 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.000 came to testify against you and your mom, who were 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:51.920 on trial together. 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:52.479 Oo. 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.320 It hurts my heart to even say that. And despite 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:59.520 these press conferences, your attorney Al Lindsey was somehow unaware 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:03.120 of the ward w money. Nevertheless, the jury nearly found 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:04.920 out about this paid testimony scheme. 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:09.080 Anyway, during trial, Greg told you about his friend from 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:15.040 South Carolina named Raoul Gibson. Raoul Gibson testified at trial 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:18.119 for the defense, saying ATF came to visit me in 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:22.360 South Carolina and Agent Wick told me that if I 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.480 gave an inculpatory statement against Greg I would be paid 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:30.040 seven thousand dollars. And at trial, one of the prosecutors, 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:34.080 the federal prosecutor who was cross examining him, said, Raoul, 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:36.720 do you think that there's just some fun somewhere the 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:41.480 agents can go and grab you seven thousand dollars? And Raoul, 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:43.679 a kid at the time, was like, I don't know 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.080 about that. And then in closing arguments, you know, prosecutors 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:50.480 really made it seem like it was preposterous that they 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.760 would be paying witnesses. 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.560 Even though they most definitely were and had been saying 0:19:56.600 --> 0:20:00.840 so on the news. Yet Greg's attorney was so how unaware, 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:03.359 But even so did he try to bring up what 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:07.280 Raoul Gibson said. When cross examining Abraham Abdullah. 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.040 They talked about what his motivation for testifying would be, 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:12.760 and what he testified to was that he talked it 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:14.960 over with his mom, and his mom said it was 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.679 the right thing to do. For a defense attorney, you 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:20.360 can't cross that, especially for a fifteen year old kid 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:22.800 who you're very much trying to be able use kid 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.080 gloves with and not look like a jerk in front 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.800 of the jury. When fifteen year olds, as I talked 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:29.120 to my mom as she said it was the right 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:31.040 thing to do. There's nowhere to go from there. 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.960 So the state successfully passed off these paid witnesses as 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:39.520 concerned citizens, followed by this quote unquote Arson expert William Cannard, 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:43.040 who unbeknownst to the jury, judge and defense, had changed 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:46.680 his original report to reflect the presence of gasoline in 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:49.640 two of thirteen samples. And even though you were contending 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.360 with an outright lie, there was still the reasonable explanation 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:54.520 of the gas powered lawn more stored in the basement. 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:57.840 A defense expert could have and should have got a 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.920 long way to combat this, had your offense attorney even bothered, 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.200 but he didn't. Now, after seeing all this go down, 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:07.359 did you still hold out hope that the jury would 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:07.840 get it? Right? 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:10.320 To be honest, part of me did. 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:14.520 The bailiff grabs the verdict from the jury foreman and 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:17.399 he hands it to the judge. The judge was he 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:20.119 was definitely referreening for them the whole time, you know, 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:20.720 every role. 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:23.159 I mean, we didn't get any type of calls if 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:24.080 this would be a game. 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.959 And I seen the judge's face, he had a confused 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.920 look on his face when he read the verdict to hisself, 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.080 and his facial expression was like, what the hell is this? 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:37.280 And I was like, maybe I got a chance. So 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:42.000 he read my mother was getting acquitted of everything. I'm like, 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:44.960 whoa did we do this? And then when they got 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.159 to the very last charge on my mother, they found 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:52.040 her guilty of insurance fraud. So I said, okay, now 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:54.560 they're going to get me, and sure enough, they found 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:58.680 me guilty on everything, except they acquitted us of conspiracy, 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:03.200 which absolutely made no sense because if she's the mastermind 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:20.000 and she made her son do it, that's obviously a conspiracy. 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:23.199 I might have been up there a month and I 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:25.600 called home one day and my uncle answered the phone 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:27.320 and he said, you're going to court. 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:29.600 Something involve a jury misconduct. 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.560 You know, during the trial, they tell the dray don't 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:36.520 talk to your family members, don't read any papers, don't 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.240 listen to the news, don't discuss the case with anybody, 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:42.479 don't visit the crime scene. So what had happened was 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:45.800 a drawer had signed to Afford David after I got 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:50.320 found guilty, and he was stating how one of the 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:53.200 drawers had her daughter at the trial every day and 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:57.080 was sitting with the fireman's family and she visited the 0:22:57.160 --> 0:22:57.920