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Speaker 1: In the early morning hours of Valentine's Day in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety five, the Pittsburgh Fire Department responded to a blaze

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Speaker 1: on Briceland Street. Darlene Buckner and her teenage son, Greg

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Speaker 1: Brown joined their safely evacuated family members as the raging

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Speaker 1: inferno took the lives of three firefighters. Atf Investigators suspected arson,

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Speaker 1: and a lab tech reported that two of the thirteen

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Speaker 1: samples from the home were positive for gasoline. However, a

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Speaker 1: gas powered mower stored in the basement may have been

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Speaker 1: the source. Reward money brought forth two alleged witnesses to

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Speaker 1: confirm what investigators had suspected. That Darlene Buckner and Greg

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Speaker 1: Brown intentionally set the blaze to collect on the twenty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars insurance policy, a dollar amount that must have

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Speaker 1: been incentive enough to destroy all their possessions and the

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Speaker 1: lives of three brave firefighters. But this is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I hate wrongful convictions. I

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Speaker 1: hate every one of the cases that we've covered, and

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Speaker 1: for different reasons. But there's a particular thing that keeps

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Speaker 1: me up at night, which are cases like the one

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Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about today, where someone was

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Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted of a crime that never even happened. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking with Greg Brown, who served

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Speaker 1: twenty years in Pennsylvania for an accidental fire with tragic fire. Nonetheless,

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Speaker 1: three lives were lost, but there was a rush to judgment,

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Speaker 1: there was junk science, there was all sorts of other

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Speaker 1: things that you're going to hear about, and we've covered

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Speaker 1: and our Junk Science podcast. But first I want to

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Speaker 1: introduce Elizabeth Delosa from the Pennsylvania Innocence Project. Elizabeth, I'm

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Speaker 1: so glad you're here to the show. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: having me, and thank you for all the incredible work

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Speaker 1: that you and the team there do. And of course

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Speaker 1: now I get the privilege of interviewing man I first

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Speaker 1: met in Phoenix at the Innocence Network conference Greg Brown. Greg,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Wronful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to simpler times, before nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: five Valentine's Day, when this horrible event happened. What was

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Speaker 1: it like did you grow up in Pittsburgh and what

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Speaker 1: was your life like? Did you have brothers and sisters,

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Speaker 1: did you have a happy childhood.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I grew up in Pittsburgh.

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Speaker 3: You know, my mom was a single mother until about

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Speaker 3: the age of seven, and she met my stepfather. I

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Speaker 3: have a stepsister that's two years older than me. Stepbrother

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Speaker 3: is about four years older than me. So it was

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Speaker 3: a nice blended family. And my mom didn't have another

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Speaker 3: child until nineteen ninety three, so it was happy.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 3: My stepdad was great, good father, figure, great provider, good guy,

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Speaker 3: straight lace, everything by the book, you know, never break

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Speaker 3: the law.

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Speaker 2: It was good. We had a good upbringing.

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Speaker 1: So you were a typical teenager, just seventeen years old

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Speaker 1: when this tragic fire happened on the night of February

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Speaker 1: thirteenth into the fourteenth of nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 3: The next day was obviously it was Valentine's Day, so

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Speaker 3: I was excited when school was gonna have a dance,

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Speaker 3: you know. So like that night, I was over my

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Speaker 3: one of my older cousin's house, playing Matten like the

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Speaker 3: kids do now on the Sega Genesis, and I'm my

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Speaker 3: stepfather said go to the store with mom because it's

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Speaker 3: dark out there or whatever. And my mom was cooking

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Speaker 3: for a relative had died, so she was cooking for

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Speaker 3: like a funeral of repass. And we went to John

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Speaker 3: Nagles in one location on the east side and near

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Speaker 3: our house, and it was closed, so we went to waterworks.

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Speaker 3: So we come home on Frankstown Avenue. You could look

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Speaker 3: over and see the houses and we seen fire trucks

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Speaker 3: and like, man, Mom, I look like our house. And

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Speaker 3: we pulled into the alleyway in between Franktown and Briceland,

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Speaker 3: and we were anxious. We wanted to know if our

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Speaker 3: family was out. And one of the firemen was on

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Speaker 3: the back porst to yet her out there across the

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Speaker 3: street at the neighbor's house, and and my mom was frantic.

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Speaker 3: The fireman just wanted her to get to call out

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Speaker 3: the alley ways, you know, because there's probably gonna be

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Speaker 3: more fire trucks coming. And she had to drive around.

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Speaker 3: You know, we seen our family. We just was the static,

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Speaker 3: just happy that everybody was out. You know.

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Speaker 2: Now was waiting game and you're hoping they put the

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Speaker 2: fire out.

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Speaker 3: As soon as possible and and maybe you could get

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Speaker 3: whatever you can out of the house. And the more

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Speaker 3: time it goes on, it's obvious that the house is

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Speaker 3: going to get destroyed. And I went over to one

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Speaker 3: of the firemen and they I said, as fire as over.

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Speaker 3: They said, yeah, boy, we lost three of our guys.

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Speaker 3: I'm like what, so, yeah, three firemen died. I'm like, man,

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Speaker 3: you know, and then one of them said, like, I

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Speaker 3: believe it was the furnace. I went back and tell

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Speaker 3: my family, like, man, they said three firemen that, and

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Speaker 3: my mom just just broke down, started crying and everybody

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Speaker 3: we was just in shock.

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Speaker 1: The city of Pittsburgh lost three courageous firefighters, Thomas Brooks,

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Speaker 1: Patty Conroy, and Mark Kalenda. So rest in peace. I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine how that news must have shaken their families

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Speaker 1: and the entire community.

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Speaker 3: No, this case in Pittsburgh was extremely it still is

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Speaker 3: highly publicized, and there was no way for anyone to

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Speaker 3: move on and including now anything Arson related to this day.

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Speaker 3: A lot of times this case will come up with

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Speaker 3: This case was always on the news, so.

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Speaker 1: You can imagine the rush to judgment to figure out

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Speaker 1: what went wrong here. And often when a death is

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Speaker 1: hard to accept, like in the case of a child

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Speaker 1: or baby, or men and women in uniform, we sometimes

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Speaker 1: see that same urge to blame somebody, even when there's

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Speaker 1: no one to blame.

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Speaker 4: In investigating several arsen cases here in western Pennsylvania. I

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Speaker 4: think one common denominator is a very quick rush to

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Speaker 4: judgment and determining within hours that the fire is intentionally set,

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Speaker 4: thereby being a crime being arson without having done the

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Speaker 4: painstaking investigation that it takes in order to rule out

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Speaker 4: all accidental causes. And Greg's case is no different. Nine

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Speaker 4: one one calls first came in around twelve twenty am

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Speaker 4: on the fourteenth, and by three am the Pittsburgh Fire

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Speaker 4: Squad Pittsburgh Police knew that they had firefighter fatalities and

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Speaker 4: called in the ATF in order to assist in the investigation,

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Speaker 4: and within hours and upon visual inspection alone, it was

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Speaker 4: determined that this fire had been intentionally set and that

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Speaker 4: set those criminal investigation gears into motion, and then once

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Speaker 4: they were started, it seems like there was no stopping them.

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Speaker 1: So the visual inspection also known as the dunk science

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Speaker 1: portion of the investigation, in which they used disproven fire

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Speaker 1: investigation methods using terms like alligator burn patterns or crazed glass,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. You can hear all about this, by the way,

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Speaker 1: and I encourage you to check it out in our

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Speaker 1: coverage of arson investigation on our series Junk Science, which

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Speaker 1: will be linked in the episode description. So, in an

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Speaker 1: effort to corroborate that assessment with actual science, they sent

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Speaker 1: thirteen samples from the basement, which they believe was the

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Speaker 1: fire's origin point. They sent those samples for testing, and

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Speaker 1: eventually the lab tech said that two of the thirteen

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Speaker 1: samples tested positive for gasoline. But there also appears to

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Speaker 1: be a perfectly logical explanation for that.

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Speaker 4: I want to just back up a little bit, because

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Speaker 4: so you're right, thirteen samples are taken, and the ATF

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Speaker 4: believes that a gallon of gasoline is poured onto a

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Speaker 4: pile of laundry that is in the basement, and that

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Speaker 4: is what the origin of the fire is. Right, So

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Speaker 4: they during the fire suppression efforts, the basement is flooded.

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Speaker 4: There's about a foot of water in the basement. And

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Speaker 4: so when they're taking these thirteen samples, the concrete, some

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Speaker 4: fabric samples, they're all wet, and the first samples are

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Speaker 4: one through eleven. Those are the first samples that are

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Speaker 4: sent to the ATF laboratory for chemical analysis. The first

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Speaker 4: analysis by an ATF chemist named William Canard. He says

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Speaker 4: negative for any traces of accelerant. That's his first report,

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Speaker 4: and we know that through discovery and through some handwritten

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Speaker 4: notes that William Canard said everything is negative. They then

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Speaker 4: send two additional samples twelve and thirteen, and then somehow

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Speaker 4: mister Caernard's original report is amended and he eventually says

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Speaker 4: that Exhibit six and thirteen are positive for trace amounts

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Speaker 4: of gasoline. And in his testimony he never reveals that

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Speaker 4: his original analysis is exculpatory to greg and actually said

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Speaker 4: that there was no trace amounts of any accelerate, including gasoline.

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Speaker 4: And then another thing is there was a lawnmower in

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Speaker 4: the basement right next to this alleged a pile of

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Speaker 4: laundry with a gas can. That's where the family stored

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Speaker 4: their lawnmower. And so if there were trace amounts of gasoline,

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Speaker 4: which John Lentini completely refutes, having gone back and looked

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Speaker 4: at those comratographs, then it would have had a logical explanation.

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Speaker 1: And John Lentini is a legendary fire scientist, an actual

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Speaker 1: scientist who started off as an arson investigator, and by

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Speaker 1: the way, he was a true believer in the old

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Speaker 1: way of thinking. But he's become such an asset for

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Speaker 1: exposing this junk science for what it is junk, Unlike

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Speaker 1: his counterpart here, William Kinn, the same quote unquote expert

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Speaker 1: from Christine Bunch's case and so many others will have

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Speaker 1: her story linked as well. So back to the immediate

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Speaker 1: aftermath with this report from Canard, the investigators developed the

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Speaker 1: theory that you and your mom plotted to burn down

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Speaker 1: your own house, destroy all of your possessions, put your

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Speaker 1: whole family in danger, grave danger, and then out on

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Speaker 1: the street, including two toddlers no less, in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a Pittsburgh winter. Right at all of this to

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Speaker 1: collect on a twenty thousand dollars insurance policy, which I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing wouldn't cover the replacement costs of what you lost.

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Speaker 2: Even at a preliminary hearing.

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Speaker 3: One of the investigators outright say that they're from Homewood,

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Speaker 3: breustness is depressed. Are we don't believe they had over

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Speaker 3: twenty thousand dollars worth of stuff in the house?

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Speaker 1: So what are we supposed to believe that you had

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Speaker 1: seventeen thousand, nine hundred and fifty dollars worth of stuff

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Speaker 1: in there or something and that this was for two

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars, this great scheme. I mean, come on, this

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Speaker 1: is so it's so sick.

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Speaker 3: And it's important. I know, me and my mother were

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Speaker 3: black and the firemen were white. And I know for

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Speaker 3: a fact there's been other cases in Pittsburgh Alleghany County

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Speaker 3: alone where fire fighters have died and so caught that

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Speaker 3: the suspects were white and they didn't charge them. So

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Speaker 3: I definitely believe race played a major factor in it.

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Speaker 3: You know, we're gonna get to the bottom and we'll

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Speaker 3: get these guys, these this black family out of here.

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Speaker 1: So you and your family were under investigation and out

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Speaker 1: of a home. Where'd you go? Where did you live?

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Speaker 2: Ironically?

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Speaker 3: I moved up the street like two streets above from

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Speaker 3: this house where you could look down with my father

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Speaker 3: and my stepmother, And so I would walk past the house.

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Speaker 3: They had the house just surrounded with agents. They had

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Speaker 3: it there tight, they had it guarded like the White House,

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Speaker 3: and it was on the news so much had me thinking, well,

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Speaker 3: is anybody after me and my family? So you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm like I need protection? Do I need to carry gun?

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Speaker 3: I don't know what's going on.

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Speaker 1: I mean with nightly media coverage. It's not crazy to

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Speaker 1: think that a target had been painted on your back.

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Speaker 1: But the investigation wasn't keeping up with the court of

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Speaker 1: public opinion. There was a reasonable explanation for the alleged

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Speaker 1: presence of gasoline and Canard's report, so they needed more

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Speaker 1: to go on, and a year after the fire, the

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Speaker 1: ATF started offering reward money fifteen thousand dollars for information.

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Speaker 4: It was on the noon news, it was on the

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Speaker 4: five o'clock news, and it was on the six o'clock news.

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Speaker 4: This press conference issuing and publicizing this.

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Speaker 1: Reward what it sounds like a good idea on paper,

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Speaker 1: but it comes with the obvious pitfall of attracting false information,

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Speaker 1: and sure enough, one of your neighbors, Keith Wright, took debate.

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Speaker 4: Twelve minutes after the six o'clock news, Keith Wright walked

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Speaker 4: down to his local fire department and made a statement

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Speaker 4: a year after the fire, having never made a statement before,

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Speaker 4: saying that he saw Greg standing outside of his family's

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Speaker 4: home before fire park personnel got on scene. Very damaging

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Speaker 4: to Greg, because, as you know, he and his mother

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Speaker 4: have always said we arrived after fire personnel were on scene.

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Speaker 4: We were at the Giant Eagle shopping and so that

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Speaker 4: put a hole in Greg's alibi.

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Speaker 1: But this hole in the alibi was not quite enough

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Speaker 1: to get a warrant, so they kept going with this strategy.

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Speaker 3: One of my friends told me that he say, man,

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Speaker 3: you know, the ATF came visit me down South Carolina

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Speaker 3: and they offered me four thousand and they said, just

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Speaker 3: say that his mother made him do it foreign source money.

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Speaker 2: And I was like what he said, yeah, man.

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Speaker 1: So it appears that they didn't care if the information

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Speaker 1: was false or not. But your friend from South Carolina,

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Speaker 1: Raoul Gibson, stood strong. So the ATF found another taker,

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Speaker 1: which came about when you had actually followed through on

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Speaker 1: getting a gun.

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Speaker 3: I did end up getting in trouble with a gun,

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Speaker 3: you know, I had it for safety.

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Speaker 4: The summer of nineteen ninety five, he got in trouble

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Speaker 4: for the first time as a juvenile. And while you know,

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Speaker 4: possession of a gun is a serious juvenile offence, it's

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Speaker 4: the first time he's ever been in front of the

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Speaker 4: juvenile court. And instead of probation or house arrest some

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Speaker 4: type of like check in program, community based program, Greg

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Speaker 4: is sent to Vision Quest in Franklin, Pennsylvania, which is

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Speaker 4: like a wilderness slash boot camp program. So one of

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Speaker 4: the Pittsburgh homicide detectives tells ATF, and then ATF immediately

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Speaker 4: goes to the Vision Quest program and asks for all

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Speaker 4: of Greg's bunkmates and starts to reach out to fifteen, sixteen,

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Speaker 4: seventeen year olds and asking whether Greg has made any

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Speaker 4: inculpatory statements or is as he mentioned this or confessed

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Speaker 4: to anybody, and no one is making a statement, and

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Speaker 4: so they start to reach out to probation off for

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Speaker 4: each one of these kids, and the fifteen year old

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Speaker 4: in particular that does eventually end up testifying against Greg.

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Speaker 4: His probation officer is contacted upwards of twenty times each

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Speaker 4: and every time money is brought up by the ATF

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Speaker 4: and the fact that there is a reward in exchange

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Speaker 4: for testimony implicating Greg, and finally they have a face

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Speaker 4: to face with fifteen year old Ibrahim Abdullah, who only

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Speaker 4: after he is told that there is a fifteen thousand

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Speaker 4: dollars reward if he has information that would implicate Greg,

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Speaker 4: does he make a statement. And the probation officer notes

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Speaker 4: that he was really concerned about the statement particularly because

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Speaker 4: it is yes and no answers to all leading questions.

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Speaker 4: And so, did Greg Brown tell you something about this fire? Yes, sir?

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Speaker 4: Did he tell you that he started the fire? Yes, sir.

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Speaker 4: And so the fifteen year old's not offering any fact,

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Speaker 4: any new facts, any corroborating facts. He's simply answering these

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Speaker 4: very lading questions from the ATF.

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Speaker 1: Nevertheless, this fifteen year old, Imbrahim Abdullah, gave them what

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Speaker 1: they need to make arrests. You were charged with arson

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Speaker 1: and murder, and your mother, Darlene Buckner, was charged with arson, murder,

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Speaker 1: conspiracy and insurance fraud.

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Speaker 3: I just thought I got arrested, and then I call

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Speaker 3: home and my aunt answered the phone. She said they

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Speaker 3: got your mom too. I said, what you already know?

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Speaker 3: You didn't do anything. Now they're arresting your mother. Basically,

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Speaker 3: they had a person saying I killed three firemen, but

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Speaker 3: I'm bragging about it. You know, they want you to

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Speaker 3: believe it. And I was bragging about it like it

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Speaker 3: was a cool crime. I mean, name one rap song

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Speaker 3: where rappers was bragging about setting fires, or a movie anything.

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Speaker 3: That's not a cool crime. It's just crazy.

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Speaker 5: Man.

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Speaker 4: As he's preparing for testimony. Fifteen year old Ibrahim Abdullah

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Speaker 4: starts to get cold feet, and he tells the ATF agent,

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Speaker 4: I don't think I want to do this. I want

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Speaker 4: to back out. I don't think I want to testify.

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Speaker 4: And the ATF agent puts him in a room with

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Speaker 4: the surviving members of the firefighters, who really, you know,

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Speaker 4: impose upon him how important it is to them that

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Speaker 4: justice be served and what a good thing he's doing.

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Speaker 4: And so not only does this fifteen year old have

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Speaker 4: the motivation of fifteen thousand dollars and what it could

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Speaker 4: do for his family, and then he also has the

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Speaker 4: pressure of the ATF and the hopes of the victim's

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Speaker 4: families on him.

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Speaker 1: So this kid, Ibrahim, his cold feet seem to have

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Speaker 1: gotten nice and toasty all of a sudden.

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Speaker 3: And we got to give this guys proper credit. Jason

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Speaker 3: Wick from the ATF, and.

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Speaker 4: He definitely was persistent, even when he was receiving no

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Speaker 4: information from these children, he was not afraid to use

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Speaker 4: that financial incentive to get the statement that he wanted.

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Speaker 1: And I read that later on as a man, Ibraham

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Speaker 1: admitted that it went even deeper than that for him

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Speaker 1: with this ATF agent Jason Wick.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: He later testifies that he was kind of smitten with

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Speaker 4: the ATF agent. The ATF agent, you know, helped him

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Speaker 4: with like court costs, helped him with some restitution in

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Speaker 4: his other cases, helped him obtain his birth certificate, would

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Speaker 4: take him on these rides in his car and would

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Speaker 4: like speed, would swear, would tell him how powerful he

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Speaker 4: is as an ATF agent. He said, you know, I

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Speaker 4: thought this guy was cool. I thought he was really cool.

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Speaker 1: So this kid Ibraham was charmed and incentivized, to say

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Speaker 1: the least, as was the neighbor Keith, Right, and they

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Speaker 1: came to testify against you and your mom, who were

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Speaker 1: on trial together.

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Speaker 2: Oo.

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Speaker 1: It hurts my heart to even say that. And despite

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Speaker 1: these press conferences, your attorney Al Lindsey was somehow unaware

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Speaker 1: of the ward w money. Nevertheless, the jury nearly found

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Speaker 1: out about this paid testimony scheme.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, during trial, Greg told you about his friend from

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Speaker 4: South Carolina named Raoul Gibson. Raoul Gibson testified at trial

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Speaker 4: for the defense, saying ATF came to visit me in

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Speaker 4: South Carolina and Agent Wick told me that if I

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Speaker 4: gave an inculpatory statement against Greg I would be paid

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Speaker 4: seven thousand dollars. And at trial, one of the prosecutors,

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Speaker 4: the federal prosecutor who was cross examining him, said, Raoul,

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Speaker 4: do you think that there's just some fun somewhere the

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Speaker 4: agents can go and grab you seven thousand dollars? And Raoul,

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Speaker 4: a kid at the time, was like, I don't know

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Speaker 4: about that. And then in closing arguments, you know, prosecutors

342
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Speaker 4: really made it seem like it was preposterous that they

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Speaker 4: would be paying witnesses.

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Speaker 1: Even though they most definitely were and had been saying

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Speaker 1: so on the news. Yet Greg's attorney was so how unaware,

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Speaker 1: But even so did he try to bring up what

347
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Speaker 1: Raoul Gibson said. When cross examining Abraham Abdullah.

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Speaker 4: They talked about what his motivation for testifying would be,

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Speaker 4: and what he testified to was that he talked it

350
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Speaker 4: over with his mom, and his mom said it was

351
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,679
Speaker 4: the right thing to do. For a defense attorney, you

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Speaker 4: can't cross that, especially for a fifteen year old kid

353
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Speaker 4: who you're very much trying to be able use kid

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Speaker 4: gloves with and not look like a jerk in front

355
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Speaker 4: of the jury. When fifteen year olds, as I talked

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Speaker 4: to my mom as she said it was the right

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Speaker 4: thing to do. There's nowhere to go from there.

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Speaker 1: So the state successfully passed off these paid witnesses as

359
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Speaker 1: concerned citizens, followed by this quote unquote Arson expert William Cannard,

360
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Speaker 1: who unbeknownst to the jury, judge and defense, had changed

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Speaker 1: his original report to reflect the presence of gasoline in

362
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Speaker 1: two of thirteen samples. And even though you were contending

363
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Speaker 1: with an outright lie, there was still the reasonable explanation

364
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Speaker 1: of the gas powered lawn more stored in the basement.

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Speaker 1: A defense expert could have and should have got a

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Speaker 1: long way to combat this, had your offense attorney even bothered,

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00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 1: but he didn't. Now, after seeing all this go down,

368
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Speaker 1: did you still hold out hope that the jury would

369
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Speaker 1: get it? Right?

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Speaker 2: To be honest, part of me did.

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Speaker 3: The bailiff grabs the verdict from the jury foreman and

372
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Speaker 3: he hands it to the judge. The judge was he

373
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Speaker 3: was definitely referreening for them the whole time, you know,

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Speaker 3: every role.

375
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Speaker 2: I mean, we didn't get any type of calls if

376
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Speaker 2: this would be a game.

377
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Speaker 3: And I seen the judge's face, he had a confused

378
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Speaker 3: look on his face when he read the verdict to hisself,

379
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 3: and his facial expression was like, what the hell is this?

380
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Speaker 3: And I was like, maybe I got a chance. So

381
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 3: he read my mother was getting acquitted of everything. I'm like,

382
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 3: whoa did we do this? And then when they got

383
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,159
Speaker 3: to the very last charge on my mother, they found

384
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 3: her guilty of insurance fraud. So I said, okay, now

385
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Speaker 3: they're going to get me, and sure enough, they found

386
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 3: me guilty on everything, except they acquitted us of conspiracy,

387
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Speaker 3: which absolutely made no sense because if she's the mastermind

388
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Speaker 3: and she made her son do it, that's obviously a conspiracy.

389
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 3: I might have been up there a month and I

390
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Speaker 3: called home one day and my uncle answered the phone

391
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Speaker 3: and he said, you're going to court.

392
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Speaker 2: Something involve a jury misconduct.

393
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Speaker 3: You know, during the trial, they tell the dray don't

394
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Speaker 3: talk to your family members, don't read any papers, don't

395
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 3: listen to the news, don't discuss the case with anybody,

396
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,479
Speaker 3: don't visit the crime scene. So what had happened was

397
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 3: a drawer had signed to Afford David after I got

398
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 3: found guilty, and he was stating how one of the

399
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 3: drawers had her daughter at the trial every day and

400
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 3: was sitting with the fireman's family and she visited the

401
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 3: crime scene.

402
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Speaker 2: So I should have got a new trial based stoff

403
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 2: of that, you know.

404
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 3: But when I went to the hearing in front of

405
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 3: Josh Coo, he said, well, it doesn't matter, it's that

406
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 3: dream was shattered. So yeah, I'm just a kid, and

407
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 3: I get sent to Greater for Prison, the biggest prison

408
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 3: in the state at the time.

409
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Speaker 2: Man. It was it was rough. It was rough in.

410
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Speaker 3: There then, you know, And I pretty much depended on

411
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Speaker 3: my lawyer, Lindsey, my trial lawyer, to get me out.

412
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Speaker 1: And not too long after trial, mister Lindsey, while litigating

413
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: that during misconduct issue and seeking a retrial, he discovered

414
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Speaker 1: the paid witness scheme.

415
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it came to light during discovery for Greg's

416
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 4: retrial that that reward was offered one year to the

417
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 4: date of the fire. His attorney asks the court to

418
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 4: reopen the evidence to tell the jury about the fact

419
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,239
Speaker 4: that this reward was offered and that it, you know,

420
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 4: certainly could be known and expected by these two witnesses,

421
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 4: and he's not allowed to do this, So the jury

422
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 4: is never told that there is a fifteen thousand dollars reward.

423
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 4: And then so Greg does his direct appeal. You know,

424
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 4: here in Pennsylvania he does his federal habeas corpus, and

425
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 4: each and every time members of the prosecution team say

426
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 4: no witnesses were paid, there is no evidence that witnesses

427
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 4: were paid.

428
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: Even though Raoul Gibson had testified about being offered a

429
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: reward at the original trial. So this issue became central

430
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: to your post conviction efforts. But only after the journalism

431
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: students at Point Park Universities, in this institute, under the

432
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 1: guidance of Bill Mushy, they were able to develop the

433
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 1: evidence to prove what had happened with these witnesses.

434
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 3: They got in touch with Abraham Abdullah and he acknowledged

435
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 3: that he got paid, and the neighbor, Keith Wright. You know,

436
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 3: it's like the summer twenty ten, right after the two

437
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 3: witnesses acknowledged that they did received some type of benefits.

438
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 3: We had got in touch with jerro Hurst. It was

439
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 3: a great Arson expert in Texas. He wrote back and

440
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 3: agreed it didn't look like it was Arson to him.

441
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 3: I got back in Corda on won my pill rights,

442
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 3: and Judge Williams agreed to give me a hearing based

443
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 3: off of I didn't have a proper expert witness at

444
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 3: my trial. After that, mister Mushie said, I'm just a professor.

445
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 3: He said, you're going to need representation. We're not lawyers,

446
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 3: And it just so happened. Also in the summer of

447
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 3: twenty ten, Did Temple started their Innocent Project and he

448
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 3: got in touch with Marissa Bluestain.

449
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: The Pennsylvania Insist Project picked up your case, and the

450
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: lead up to this hearing in front of Judge Williams,

451
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: while Bill Mushie's team continued to gather evidence.

452
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 4: Bill Mushie and his students they did several for requests

453
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 4: and one of the documents that they got from the

454
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 4: ATF were these two redacted checks.

455
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,479
Speaker 3: The check for ten thousand, the check for five thousand,

456
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 3: and it was blacked.

457
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 4: Out, and so really all they could tell was that

458
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 4: the ATF issued two checks, one for five thousand and

459
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 4: one for ten thousand. They couldn't tell who they are

460
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 4: gone to. And so they went back and they looked

461
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 4: at all of the appellate history in Greg's case, and

462
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 4: they were confused, right because prosecutors really made it seem

463
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 4: like it was preposterous that they would be paying witnesses

464
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 4: and So finally in twenty ten, when these redacted checks

465
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 4: are obtained by the Innocence Institute and Point Park go

466
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 4: back and they say to the Alleghany County District Attorney's office, Okay,

467
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 4: if no witnesses were paid, what are these.

468
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 3: When mister Mushie confronted them, David Hickden was in charge

469
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 3: of the ATF at the time, he responded, Oh, well,

470
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 3: they got paid, but they weren't expecting anything. We didn't

471
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: make any promises beforehand. You know, we basically paid the

472
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 3: malt de clear blue.

473
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a good story. That's a I got

474
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: a nice bridge outside of Pittsburgh, right, So that's great.

475
00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 4: And so Point Park investigators find Ibrahim Abdullah, who is now,

476
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 4: you know, in his late twenties, and they asked him

477
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 4: when were you paid and did you know you were

478
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 4: going to be paid at the time of your testimony,

479
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 4: and he very freely said yes, I was a fifteen

480
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 4: year old kid. They offered me fifteen thousand dollars. It

481
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 4: was more money than I had ever seen in my life,

482
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 4: and it was highly motivating. I knew before trial, and

483
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 4: actually I expected the fifteen thousand. I was disappointed to

484
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 4: get only.

485
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: Five, okay, So that solves the mystery of whose name

486
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: was on each redacted check five thousand for Ibrahim and

487
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: ten for Keith.

488
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 4: Right point, Park was having a really difficult time locating

489
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 4: Keith Wright, and so the Pennsylvania Innocence Project then got

490
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 4: Dave Fawcett involved from Reid Smith, and Dave was actually

491
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 4: able to locate Keith Wright. Mister Wright also said, yes,

492
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 4: I absolutely knew about the reward. I knew about it

493
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 4: before trial. Then we were able to bring in Keith Wright,

494
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 4: bring in Ibrahim Abdullah at the post conviction hearing and

495
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,719
Speaker 4: testify about not only their knowledge prior to trial, but

496
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 4: that promises were made to them. And then Ibrahim Abdullah,

497
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 4: the fifteen year old kid at the time, further testified

498
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 4: that Jason Wick told him prior to his testimony, They're

499
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 4: going to ask you if I've promised you of anything,

500
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 4: if there's any kind of incentive or reward, And I

501
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 4: want to be very clear, I didn't promise you anything.

502
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 4: Do you understand, right?

503
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: So the prosecution is saying to this fifteen year old kid, Wow,

504
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: we want you to lie, and we want to make

505
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: sure wink wink, you're going to lie about the lie right,

506
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: and there's.

507
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 4: A failed threat of there's this money on the line, right,

508
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 4: so lie well.

509
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: So both paid witnesses exposed the scheme in front of

510
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: Judge Williams in twenty twelve. And then the ATF agent

511
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: Jason Wick, he was also at this hearing.

512
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 3: He threatened Dave Fawcet in the hallway. He threatened Dave

513
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 3: and said, YEA said, trying to ruin my fucking name,

514
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 3: you know, excuse my language, just trying to ruin my name,

515
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: you know. Dave said, he just threatened me in the

516
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 3: hallway when he's on the stand like a perfect gentleman,

517
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 3: you know. And of course he denied everything any witness

518
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 3: anything or offering any anything.

519
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: Dave Fawcett also presented a few other witnesses that lent

520
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: credibility to Abdullah and writs recantations. So things must have

521
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:22,239
Speaker 1: been looking up.

522
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 3: Dave said, man, I never seen nothing like this. He said,

523
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: everything went perfect for us these three days, you know.

524
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 3: And then I might have waited for my answers for

525
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 3: two years, all right, And.

526
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 4: Then January two twelve is a hearing, and then February

527
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 4: twenty fourteen is the relief.

528
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 3: Then twenty fourteen. I was in the courtroom and Jeorge

529
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: Williams said, mister Brown, your attorneys made good points. The

530
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: prosecutors made good points too, And my heart started beating.

531
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 3: And but mister Brown, I believe your witnesses. You ask

532
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 3: for a new trauma, get you a new trial. I

533
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 3: couldn't hear nothing but my heart beating. And I just

534
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: remember given my brother, my youngest brother, Deronte, because he

535
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 3: was they both for babies, but he was a new

536
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 3: born when all this happened, and I like gave him

537
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 3: like a head, not man. That was the best day

538
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 3: right there, well, second best day, because obviously the day

539
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 3: I got out was the best day. And I stayed

540
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: down there for two years, down the county, from twenty

541
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 3: fourteen to twenty sixteen. I had a belt that was

542
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 3: ridiculously high. The district attorney appealed immediately, and when they

543
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: lost their last appeal, they tried to go back to

544
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: the old playbook. Tried to get people that was on

545
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 3: the pard with me to you know, jail house informants.

546
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 3: They went to all my salemates through twenty years that

547
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 3: they confined. Fortunately for me, those guys still firm. And

548
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 3: then you know didn't allow on me.

549
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: So they had one final play with the ATF in Bob.

550
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: This case was always under joint federal and state jurisdiction,

551
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: but with Judge Williams on this case, their options in

552
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: state court were finally running out.

553
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 4: And so this dual prosecution, this state and federal prosecution,

554
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 4: once again got together and said, Okay, we don't want

555
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 4: to go and to trial in front of Judge Williams.

556
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 4: We can't get him to recuse, and so we'll drop

557
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 4: state charges. We'll switch forums, and we'll take Greg up

558
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 4: the street to the federal court. They asked to withdraw

559
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 4: state charges. Judge Williams when he granted the nol Pross motion,

560
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 4: the motion to withdraw, he did do it with prejudice,

561
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 4: meaning that you know, if they lost in federal court,

562
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 4: they couldn't come immediately back to state court and prosecute Greg.

563
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 4: And then we got to federal court and argued for

564
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 4: supervised release.

565
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: I was released a week before Thanksgiving of twenty sixteen.

566
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 3: It was bittersweet, man, because I was obviously happy to

567
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 3: come home, but I had to live four or five

568
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 3: years with this case hanging over my head.

569
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 4: You know, the one thing that stands out obviously, like

570
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 4: Greg walking out of the Allegheny County Jail. We're standing

571
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 4: in the lobby. First thing he says to the journalists

572
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 4: who are asking him questions is I want to thank

573
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 4: the firefighters for saving my family. That's the first thing

574
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 4: that's on his mind the moment he's walking out of

575
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 4: being wrongly incarcerated for twenty years.

576
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: That's beautiful.

577
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: Greg.

578
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: So now you're released, but still not totally free. You

579
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: still had this case hanging over your head.

580
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 3: I was pretty much free with deception of I couldn't

581
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: leave Western Pennsylvania or out the state without permission. So

582
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 3: it was basically like me getting his charge from the beginning,

583
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 3: but making bond.

584
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,959
Speaker 1: And this dragged out for about six long years, right,

585
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: and this time you did not have Judge Williams.

586
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 4: The players on this case in nineteen ninety seven are

587
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 4: Prosecutor Mark Clark, Assistant United States Attorney Sean Sweeney, Judge

588
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 4: Sir Cone presiding over the case. When we get to

589
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 4: the federal court, we have Sewn Sweeney, United States Attorney.

590
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 4: He's going to prosecute the case federally. We're initially assigned

591
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 4: to Judge Schwab here in the Western District, who recuses

592
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 4: himself and who is the case assigned to but Judge

593
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 4: Sharkone who has been appointed to the federal bench. And

594
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 4: so once again we have a state federal team and

595
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 4: the exact same players as twenty two years ago.

596
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: Who all have a professional interest in maintaining this conviction.

597
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: So how did it finally get resolved?

598
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: I had a meeting with my attorneys.

599
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: They said, the government is offering the alpha plea right,

600
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 3: and my thing was, I'm never going to admit to

601
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 3: something I didn't do. And they said, well, this is

602
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: unique saying the case will be over and you're pleading

603
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 3: guilty while maintaining your innocence at the same time.

604
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 4: That was a hard decision. I remember we presented this

605
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 4: to Greg. We're all sitting at reed Smith. It's still

606
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 4: during COVID, so we're sitting out on an outdoor patio.

607
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 4: That's what I don't know, Greg thirteen stories above.

608
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, live.

609
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 4: Greg is afraid of heights, so he's skirting across like

610
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 4: the wall trying to get to his seat. And Yeah,

611
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 4: we just had like a very kind of conversation about

612
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 4: like if we go back to trial, we have Judge Starkne,

613
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 4: we have Sean Tweeney, we have the exact same players.

614
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 4: None of us can labor under any illusions that you

615
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 4: could not be wrongfully convicted. Again, we have seen it happen.

616
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 4: We have seen it happen with these exact people.

617
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 3: It was hard for me, man, It was very hard

618
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 3: for me. And that's what we end up doing in

619
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 3: June of twenty twenty two. To this day, Man, it

620
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 3: bothers me. What I mean, I don't know, it's over.

621
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 3: I'm glad it's over with. And like Liz told me,

622
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 3: she's like, look, there's no restrictions. You'll be able to

623
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 3: tell your story. And then Dave said, like, if we

624
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 3: do fight it and get it, quit it, there's no

625
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 3: guaranteed that I will get compensated.

626
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: So it was tough, man, It's still tough.

627
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: Man.

628
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 2: It definitely bothers me.

629
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: Right, even though you had amassed all of this evidence

630
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: and served all of that time, plus the Great John

631
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: Lintini was prepared to testify about Canard's false report actually

632
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: showing no presence at all of gasoline on any of

633
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: the samples, and that this was actually not an arson

634
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: case at all. Still, there was no guarantee that you

635
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: get an acquittal, and even if you manage that, there

636
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: was no guarantee the compensation would be forthcoming.

637
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 4: The most accountability that we can have is telling you,

638
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 4: telling you, telling your listeners what happened to Greg.

639
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: And we're very honored to have you. So is there

640
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: anything at all you'd like to ask of our audience,

641
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: anything they can do.

642
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 3: I just want to say, I got a book coming

643
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 3: out to Greg Brown Story Volume one.

644
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: I almost done with it.

645
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 3: I just want to ask the audience. Man, you know,

646
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 3: she's a little bit of common sense. You just can't

647
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 3: take everything they say is go. You can't be that

648
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: naive when someone's life is in your hands.

649
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: Amen, And we'll keep our ears to the ground about

650
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: your book, as well as link the Pennsylvania Innis's project

651
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: in the episode description so people can show some support.

652
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 1: Without them and other organizations like them, folks like Greg

653
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: would have even harder. And with that, let's go to

654
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show. Closing arguments, of course,

655
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: is a part of the show where I have the

656
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: honor of thanking each of you. And now I'm just

657
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: going to kick back in my chair, turn my microphone off,

658
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 1: close my eyes, and leave my headphones on and then Liz,

659
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: you have the microphone to say whatever has been left unsaid,

660
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: and then just hand it off to Greg.

661
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 4: So, you know, experts theorize that anywhere from three to

662
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 4: ten percent of all people convicted in the United States

663
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 4: annually are actually innocent. I think that's probably very conservative.

664
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 4: But even if we are very conservative and say that

665
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 4: it's only one percent, that's like more than ten thousand

666
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 4: people a year who are convicted of a crime that

667
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 4: they didn't commit. Innocence organizations like mine are underfunded, we're understaffed,

668
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 4: we're very small nonprofit organizations, and so it takes us

669
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 4: years to investigate and then to litigate a wrongful conviction.

670
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 4: And so when you do see that exoneration in the news,

671
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 4: it's wonderful. It's a wonderful day. It has been years

672
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 4: in the making. If we can prevent wrongful convictions from happening,

673
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 4: if we can be better jurors, better prosecutors, better defense attorneys,

674
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 4: better judges, then we won't cost people and their families'

675
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 4: literal decades of their life in prison. And so be skeptical,

676
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 4: Be healthily skeptical of what you're hearing, and don't just take.

677
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 4: You know someone who is very confident and also can

678
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 4: be very wrong.

679
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 2: Word for it. Yeah, that family members, neighbors.

680
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 3: You know, everyone needs to hear these type of stories

681
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 3: because you know everyone might not listen to this, so

682
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 3: no one wants to get involved or care until it's

683
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 3: their cousin, their son, or brother, their nephew.

684
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 2: You have to pay attention.

685
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 3: Beforehand because you have a responsibility because if you're not

686
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 3: helping out beforehand and it's too late, and then when

687
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 3: it's your loved one, they get charged and then you're crying.

688
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: You should have did something about it. You know, you

689
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: see a face on TV or in the papers. It's

690
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 2: kind of hard. You know, the average person that never

691
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 2: had a loved one to.

692
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 3: Deal with this, or a friend. Ay, he's guilty, look

693
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 3: what he did? You know, don't You shouldn't judge because

694
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 3: you never know when it would be you and you

695
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 3: found me out the front row begging and pleading these judges.

696
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 3: When you get to the point where you need an

697
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 3: edison project, it's bad anyway because that means obviously it

698
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 3: didn't work out at court. So people just need to

699
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: just hear these type of stories as much as possible.

700
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 3: The last thing I want to say, my God extremely

701
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 3: blessed and lucky at the same time. Things just came

702
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,479
Speaker 3: together for me the right time. I just to still

703
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 3: be in there trying to reach out to different organizations.

704
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 3: You know, it's messed up what happened to me, but

705
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 3: I wouldn't want another kid to go through this or

706
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:54,280
Speaker 3: no other family.

707
00:38:54,480 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: So that said, thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction.

708
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lava for

709
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early by subscribing to Lava for

710
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our

711
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as

712
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Clyburn.

713
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time

714
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

715
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

716
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

717
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of

718
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number

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Speaker 1: one