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Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 1: a liability.

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Speaker 2: It's a real guest.

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Speaker 3: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 3: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 4: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 4: really live.

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Speaker 2: There's a wisdom at death's door.

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Speaker 3: I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know

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Speaker 3: what to do because there was no internet.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything

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Speaker 1: is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a

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Speaker 1: human first and a licensed therapist second. And right now

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Speaker 1: I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope encourage you

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Speaker 1: to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others,

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Speaker 1: and the world around you.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to You Need Therapy.

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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat. I am the host.

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Speaker 1: And quick reminder before we get into the good stuff today,

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Speaker 1: because we have some good stuff today that although I'm

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Speaker 1: a therapist, and although this podcast is called You Need Therapy,

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Speaker 1: this does not serve as a replacement or substitute for

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Speaker 1: any actual mental health services.

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Speaker 3: However, it still can be helpful.

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Speaker 1: So now that we have that out of the way,

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Speaker 1: I get to introduce part two of the conversation that

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Speaker 1: I had with singer songwriter JP Sachs.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be just as good as last week.

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Speaker 1: And I know you guys loved the episode last week

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Speaker 1: and some of the things we talked about. We expand

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Speaker 1: on some of those topics about breakups and heartbreak and

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Speaker 1: all of that, and we also dive into some more

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Speaker 1: topics and talk about masculinity, what it means to be

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Speaker 1: a protector and all of the things. So if you

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Speaker 1: have not listened to part one, press pause, go listen

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Speaker 1: to part one, and then you can listen to part two,

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Speaker 1: because this was the way that the actual conversation happened.

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Speaker 1: So I just think it would make more sense for

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Speaker 1: you that way. And I want to remind you guys

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Speaker 1: that if you are new to JP Sacks and one

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Speaker 1: you're welcome, but two, you need to follow him on Instagram.

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Speaker 1: His Instagram handle is at JP Sachs sa XE. He

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Speaker 1: has a song that came out a couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: ago called When You Think Of Me, and then he

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Speaker 1: also has very timely a song coming out this Friday,

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Speaker 1: called the good parts, and we talk about some of

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Speaker 1: that in the conversation. So you're gonna want to definitely

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Speaker 1: go follow him on Instagram and if you click on

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Speaker 1: the link in his bio, you can pre save that

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Speaker 1: song and you can, in the meantime go listen to

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Speaker 1: When You Think of Me because it is such a

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Speaker 1: good song. So thank you JP for continuing this conversation,

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Speaker 1: and thank you guys for continuing to listen to this conversation.

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Speaker 1: I will talk to you guys on Wednesday for couch Talks,

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Speaker 1: but in the meantime, here is part two of my

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Speaker 1: conversation with JP Sacks. I do have a question about

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Speaker 1: for you, really actually as a man, what is it like?

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Speaker 1: Woman asked this generally, Then I'm going to get a

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Speaker 1: little bit deeper. So what's it like just in our

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Speaker 1: world being a man who has is this is an assumption,

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Speaker 1: but I assume that you have access to your feelings

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Speaker 1: and you're pretty emotionally literate.

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Speaker 3: So what is it like for.

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Speaker 1: You to be a man in this kind of toxic

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Speaker 1: masculinity driven society who has feelings, who has access to them,

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Speaker 1: who talks about them, who writes about them, who sings

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Speaker 1: about them. What is that like for you? Is it

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Speaker 1: all sunshine and rainbows? Is there a light in a

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Speaker 1: dark side?

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Speaker 4: I think I arrived at the analysis of my emotions

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Speaker 4: in a.

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Speaker 2: Number of ways.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure I actually feel my emotions nearly as

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Speaker 4: much as one would expect as someone who works with

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Speaker 4: the jurisdiction of emotions. I think part of the reason

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Speaker 4: that I developed the skill of articulating my emotions and

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Speaker 4: songs was because I didn't feel like I knew how

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Speaker 4: to actually embrace or feel them for a number of reasons.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think that's like a lot of that

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Speaker 4: is growing up with an alcoholic parent, like my adolescence,

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Speaker 4: I learned conflict resolution in communication as an only child

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Speaker 4: with two parents a lot of the time under the

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Speaker 4: influence of something. My mom really struggled with alcoholism in

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Speaker 4: my teenage years. My dad is best dad in the world,

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Speaker 4: but can be rather conflict avoidant. So that dynamic was

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Speaker 4: me getting home from school at five pm to just

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Speaker 4: irreverently drunk mom, who I learned as a twelve year

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Speaker 4: old that if I said the wrong thing that she

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Speaker 4: would break shit or hit me or leave, and she

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Speaker 4: could be gone for three days.

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Speaker 2: And we wouldn't know what was going on.

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Speaker 4: But if I said the right thing and if I

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Speaker 4: treated her with the if I went about it exactly

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Speaker 4: the right way, then I could have like silly, drunk

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Speaker 4: fun mom. But that could like flip like I could.

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Speaker 4: It could be one word and that would flip. But

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Speaker 4: I would make it a game for myself. I kind

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Speaker 4: of would get home and it was like a challenge,

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Speaker 4: and my dad would tell me, like, you know, you

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Speaker 4: have to be the mature one when I was like

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Speaker 4: eleven twelve, because you know she's not going to be

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Speaker 4: so you have to be the mature one. And obviously

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Speaker 4: there's an intense emotional reaction as a kid to seeing

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Speaker 4: your parent like that. But I couldn't let myself feel

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Speaker 4: that because if I the worst thing I could say

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Speaker 4: was something about how it affected me, like that would

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Speaker 4: be the most triggering thing for her. So that was

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Speaker 4: really my first experience with navigating emotionally tumultuous moments was

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Speaker 4: having to channel my full emotional experience through an intellectual

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Speaker 4: lens to make sure I said things in the right way.

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Speaker 4: And I think that did two things to me as

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Speaker 4: a young adult. It honed my ability to articulate my

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Speaker 4: emotions even when they were very intense. It also made

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Speaker 4: it very very hard for me to have any sort

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Speaker 4: of honest emotional reaction without intellectualizing first. So that's like

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Speaker 4: one of the challenges of my life. But it's also

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Speaker 4: one of the blessings in my life because I think

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Speaker 4: it frames my entire profession as a.

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Speaker 3: Songwrit Yeah, and one, thanks for sharing that. I really

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Speaker 3: appreciate that.

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Speaker 1: And also thank you for sharing that just in the

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Speaker 1: sense that there I am have as a therapist, assuming

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Speaker 1: something about somebody and thinking that it comes from one

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Speaker 1: space when we really have no idea the experiences we've

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Speaker 1: had that led us to be the humans that we are.

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Speaker 1: And so you have this amazing skill of being able

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Speaker 1: to write and articulate feelings that people can also then

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Speaker 1: you know, feel with you and feel connected. But it

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Speaker 1: comes from this like actually, I'm going to use this

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Speaker 1: word and I don't know if it's going to fit,

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Speaker 1: so if it doesn't, just let me know. It comes

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Speaker 1: from the traumatic experience. So it comes from a situation

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Speaker 1: that we might not have chosen and talk about like

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Speaker 1: a weird dissonance. That's a weird dissonance.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean so to speak to the rest of

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Speaker 4: your question also about like how that ties into masculinity,

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Speaker 4: I think, well, firstly, I think people falsely equate being

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Speaker 4: able to express your emotions in a song with vulnerability.

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Speaker 4: I don't personally think there's anything that vulnerable about the

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Speaker 4: songs because I have spent months crafting exactly how I

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Speaker 4: want to present those emotions. And to me, my definition

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Speaker 4: of vulnerable is allowing yourself to exist without all of

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Speaker 4: the editing, and that is highly highly edited emotional content.

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Speaker 4: Like I spent months crafting exactly how I want to

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Speaker 4: articulate the emotion that I am fitting into a song.

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Speaker 4: Now as a person like that absolutely is rude. In

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Speaker 4: I had to when I was, you know, in my

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Speaker 4: early twenties, in trying to unlearn the conflict resolution that

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Speaker 4: I had developed through my mom. In order to feel

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Speaker 4: really anything, I needed to figure out how to describe

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Speaker 4: it to myself. I need to describe it to myself

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Speaker 4: in order to feel it. So yeah, now I describe

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Speaker 4: my emotions too through songs in a way that then

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Speaker 4: allows other people to feel it. But it's really just

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Speaker 4: me trying to show myself how to feel it, and

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Speaker 4: other people feel their emotions similarly to the way I do.

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Speaker 4: So that works in people who listen to my music,

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Speaker 4: But the area in my life where I'm vulnerable is

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Speaker 4: definitely not my music, because even though they are about

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Speaker 4: sensitive things, are about personal things. I've been so thoughtful

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Speaker 4: about how i want to craft it that it feels safe.

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Speaker 2: It feels intentional.

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, like, is there any

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Speaker 1: like regret in like writing a song about something and

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Speaker 1: then you have to like sing it all the time,

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Speaker 1: and maybe it's about a time that you don't want

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Speaker 1: to go back and be in. I can make the

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Speaker 1: assumption I might be wrong that, like maybe not, because

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Speaker 1: of what you are just expressing of, Like, this is

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Speaker 1: a pretty crafted thing, and I'm I'm sharing this in

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Speaker 1: a way that actually doesn't feel that vulnerable to me,

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Speaker 1: although I mean not that it's dishonest, right right, Like

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Speaker 1: it's difference dishonest.

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Speaker 4: It gives me anxiety because I know, I know that

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Speaker 4: I'm that not just for other people, but for myself.

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Speaker 2: I am time capsuling.

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Speaker 4: An emotion, a feeling that is going to represent for

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Speaker 4: me personally, like an era of my life, on an

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Speaker 4: era of what it felt like to be myself in

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Speaker 4: a moment. Yeah, so I want to accurately depict that

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Speaker 4: for myself.

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Speaker 1: Where do you feel the most vulnerable? Like when do

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Speaker 1: you feel the most like? This is the hard, tough stuff.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the moments that I don't get to that

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Speaker 4: I have to exist without really thinking through how I'm

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Speaker 4: going to exist yet just allowing myself to be unedited, unfiltered, unprepared.

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Speaker 3: What about it like live shows?

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Speaker 4: I mean I love live shows. I find the very stimulus.

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Speaker 4: It's like a conversation, but you know, you get the

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Speaker 4: added charisma that you're given by the how stimulating it

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Speaker 4: is to be on stage in front of a lot

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Speaker 4: of people. Okay, Like there's a personality I get to

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Speaker 4: have on stage that it's very hard to stimulate anywhere

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Speaker 4: else because of just the chemical implications of being in

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Speaker 4: front of that many people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fair.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say at the Nashville show that

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Speaker 1: I was at, I don't know if you remember this,

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Speaker 1: because I don't know if you remember everything that happens

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Speaker 1: on stage, But I don't remember what song it was.

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Speaker 1: But there was a song that like you had like

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Speaker 1: the audience sing part of it, and then you ended

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Speaker 1: up singing like the same verse a couple of times,

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Speaker 1: and I wouldn't even I don't even want to call

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Speaker 1: this a mess up because the way that you orchestrated

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Speaker 1: it was like, well, this is kind of like the

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Speaker 1: coolest moment of the show. Like everybody was laughing. It

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Speaker 1: felt like everybody was in it together. You felt like

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Speaker 1: a real person, even though that was like you were

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Speaker 1: closer to us than some venues that you might play in,

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Speaker 1: but like you actually felt like a real person.

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Speaker 3: You weren't robotic.

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Speaker 1: So does that feel vulnerable or is that a space

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Speaker 1: where you like, I feel like I'm alive and I

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Speaker 1: can be myself and I can be messy even though

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Speaker 1: I'm performing.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, I don't exactly know.

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Speaker 4: Maybe I falsely equate vulnerability with discomfort, So it feels

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Speaker 4: weird to call that vulnerability because I feel very comfortable

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Speaker 4: in that space. But maybe that's like a false pretense.

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Speaker 4: I love that stuff, like I love when the shows

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Speaker 4: are spontaneous, indifferent and exist in a way that they're

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Speaker 4: not going to exist in any other moment.

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Speaker 2: And I remember the moment you're talking about because it

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Speaker 2: was in three minutes.

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Speaker 5: Okay, yes, yep, And there's the end of the verse

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Speaker 5: is the I'm afraid you won't meet me halfway, and

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Speaker 5: I like chuckled, and I was like kind of went

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Speaker 5: down like that, and then the next line and You're

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Speaker 5: afraid I won't know how to stay, And then I

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Speaker 5: also chuckled because it also went down like that.

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Speaker 4: And it just felt like there was this sad prophetic

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Speaker 4: nature to that moment of that song. And then as

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Speaker 4: I continue to perform the song, kept thinking about that

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Speaker 4: moment and then forgot all of the words to the

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Speaker 4: second verse, and luckily people in the audience knew it

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Speaker 4: and helped that.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like you don't see that a lot,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know what that means or if that's

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Speaker 1: even important, but I was like, well, this is actually

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Speaker 1: one of the most memorable parts of the show, and

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Speaker 1: I'm remembering in a good way. Let's actually go back

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Speaker 1: to that and just maybe you were talking about more

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Speaker 1: of like why your emotions really came about, But I

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Speaker 1: actually do really want to know, even if you don't

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Speaker 1: feel that way, even if you don't feel like you

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Speaker 1: have the access to your emotions, the wapes people might

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Speaker 1: assume of you, what is it like, because I feel

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the conversations around masculinity happen without men.

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Speaker 3: It's women talking about men. And I'm very.

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Speaker 1: Interested in what is the perspective of the man, because

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Speaker 1: while while women are all genders really are affected by

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Speaker 1: just patriarchy in general and masculinity in general. We're affected,

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Speaker 1: but you guys are affected by it too, because there's expectations,

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Speaker 1: and how do we actually show up as authentic and

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Speaker 1: love that part of us if it doesn't meant expectations.

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Speaker 3: So just tell me what it's like to have feelings

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Speaker 3: as a guy.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think the stereotype that men are not

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Speaker 4: emotional is so absurd because I think it acts as

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Speaker 4: if some feelings count as emotional and some feelings don't,

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Speaker 4: as if, like, you know, you picture your stereotypical like dude,

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Speaker 4: like you know, cis gendered straight dude punching through a

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Speaker 4: wall in anger, and but that's just him like being

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Speaker 4: I don't know, manly.

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Speaker 3: As if like that's not that's not emotional.

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Speaker 4: Being emotional, but like a woman can shed a few

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Speaker 4: tears in her car listening to a song and she's

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Speaker 4: the hysterical. One quote unquote Big Air quotes on that

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Speaker 4: one for those people listening. But like as if, like

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Speaker 4: we've we've established that some emotions can be quote unquote

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Speaker 4: manly and some make you any version of the derogatory,

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Speaker 4: sexist words that we call men. So yeah, that spectrum

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Speaker 4: is odd to me. I think, regardless of your gender,

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Speaker 4: whether you're non binary, whether you're a woman, whether you're man,

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Speaker 4: we live in a society that teaches us that some

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Speaker 4: emotions are more allowed than others in our identity. And

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Speaker 4: also I think the idea that like emotions and intellect

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Speaker 4: are separate is just absurd as well, Like they're a

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Speaker 4: very intertwined experience of ourselves, and there's all kinds of

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Speaker 4: information in your emotions that you get to then think about.

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Speaker 4: I live in a world where, like most of the

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Speaker 4: most of the people around me are emotionally literate, big feeling, articulate,

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Speaker 4: people who are very rarely in this version of their

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Speaker 4: life told that they're being too much. But you don't

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Speaker 4: live in southern California, you know, you grow up in

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Speaker 4: any kind of small town. The version of what it

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Speaker 4: means to be a quote unquote man is a pretty

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Speaker 4: limited thing. But I also think that expanding on that

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Speaker 4: doesn't mean rejecting yet because you know, maybe like you

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Speaker 4: saw your dad your uncles in a certain way, and

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Speaker 4: there's things about who they are that you want to embrace.

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Speaker 4: I have like a bunch of non binary friends who

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Speaker 4: have not just rejected the stereotypes of what it means

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Speaker 4: to be a quote unquote man, they've rejected the identity

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Speaker 4: of man at all. But that doesn't mean that there

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Speaker 4: isn't things that about who they are that they've taken

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Speaker 4: from their dads or their uncles or their grandfathers.

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Speaker 2: Like it's not a one or the other thing.

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Speaker 4: It's not like, you know, you're either this super masculine

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Speaker 4: human in the way that you grew up learning you're

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Speaker 4: supposed to be, or you become this like sensitive, crying

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Speaker 4: all the time, like weird stereotype. It's just all deeply whack.

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Speaker 4: The truth is, there are just so many ways to

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Speaker 4: be a person that live on a spectrum that's a

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Speaker 4: lot wider than the parts of it that we limit

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Speaker 4: ourselves to. And figuring out what part of that feels

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Speaker 4: the most honest without the limitation of the perceived judgment

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Speaker 4: of certain emotions more than others is a really freeing,

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Speaker 4: really wonderful thing that I think makes you stronger as

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Speaker 4: a human being if you can embrace the individuality of that,

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Speaker 4: not weaker because you're not being a quote unquote man.

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Speaker 1: There was a million things you just said, but one

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Speaker 1: what did you say? I need I needed to repeat

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Speaker 1: that because I liked it. Something about you can was it?

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Speaker 1: Like you just you can disagree with it without rejecting it,

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Speaker 1: like you can keep parts of it.

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Speaker 3: I like that idea that like, we don't.

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Speaker 1: Have to completely like abolish masculinity to not live in

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Speaker 1: this like one or the other world.

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Speaker 2: No exactly. I mean, that's that's the exciting part of it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not like like, well, toxic masculinity, fucked, masculinity fucked.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm abandoning all of that. It's not like that.

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Speaker 4: It's it's it's finding the parts of your emotional experience

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Speaker 4: that feel the most authentic to yourself and not limiting

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Speaker 4: that to the boundaries that you know you have been

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Speaker 4: taught growing up.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 4: That's not easy to do, right, especially you know, if

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Speaker 4: you know, for better or worse, I have the blessing

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Speaker 4: of not being tied to too many expectations of my

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Speaker 4: very small family. So it's I recognize that there's a

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Speaker 4: challenge to existing in opposition to the expectations of a

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Speaker 4: lot of people around you.

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Speaker 1: There's a freeing component that you're talking about, and then

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Speaker 1: there's a grief component too for a lot of people

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Speaker 1: because leaning into this idea that we don't have to

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Speaker 1: be one or the other, we don't have to be

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Speaker 1: two things, this isn't right and that's wrong.

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Speaker 3: By finding freedom for that, you might be grieving.

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Speaker 1: Certain relationships, certain expectations that.

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Speaker 3: You might even have for yourself.

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Speaker 1: Ideas like means to an ends for certain things when

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Speaker 1: we are not groomed isn't the right word, but when

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Speaker 1: we are brought up in a culture where there are

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Speaker 1: these two things that feel really stable, and then we

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Speaker 1: realize because these two things don't neither feels like right

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Speaker 1: or safe, we still feel really uncomfortable in the process

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Speaker 1: giving out of it. Right, So like, I can feel

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Speaker 1: actually safer in this place where I don't have to

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Speaker 1: live in these lines drawn for me, but it also

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Speaker 1: might be way more uncomfortable. And I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of times people get those confused where if I'm uncomfortable,

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Speaker 1: that means I'm not safe, but actually this is safer

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Speaker 1: it just feels weird and there's some loss in that,

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Speaker 1: and loss is uncomfortable. So for you personally, not everybody's

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Speaker 1: experience is going to be like yours, and so I

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Speaker 1: don't want you to feel like you have to qualify it.

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Speaker 3: But what do you.

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Speaker 1: Think were the things in your system and your community

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Speaker 1: that let you kind of move outside of those lines

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Speaker 1: that society kind of draws or definitely draws.

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Speaker 4: I am very lucky to be to be rewarded for

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Speaker 4: embracing my emotional experience of the world. I also get

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Speaker 4: to think about my feelings all of the time, like

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Speaker 4: it's my job.

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Speaker 2: Because it is. I mean, just like you do.

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Speaker 4: We live in a world where we get to think

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Speaker 4: about our feelings twelve hours a day if we want to.

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Speaker 2: That is not the reality for most people.

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Speaker 4: Most people go to a job that doesn't leave very

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Speaker 4: much room for them to be thinking about their emotional

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Speaker 4: experience of the world because they've got shit to do.

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Speaker 4: And therefore, you have a couple hours on either side

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Speaker 4: of a job where there is space to explore your emotions,

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Speaker 4: and it's also exhausting, and you're coming home to a

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Speaker 4: couple of hours where you probably still have all kinds

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Speaker 4: of things to do, whether it be the roles of

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Speaker 4: your family or any number of things. All that to say,

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Speaker 4: the amount of time of the day where there is

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Speaker 4: left to be analytical about your emotional experience is pretty small,

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Speaker 4: and it's probably parts of the day where you're already

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Speaker 4: exhausted from everything else you had to do to just

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Speaker 4: exist in that reality.

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Speaker 2: Is where I.

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Speaker 4: Think artists provide value because we get to spend we

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Speaker 4: have to spend a lot of time analyzing our emotions,

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Speaker 4: so we can distill it into something that becomes a

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Speaker 4: little window for someone to get to those parts of

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Speaker 4: themselves a little faster. So maybe I spend months thinking

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Speaker 4: about a feeling so I can capture that feeling in

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Speaker 4: a three minute song. So when you get home at

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Speaker 4: the end of your day exhausted, you can sit in

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Speaker 4: your bedroom or listen to that song and access that

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Speaker 4: feeling in yourself with a little bit more ease, without

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Speaker 4: having to spend all that time to get there, because

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Speaker 4: an artist spent all that time to get there for

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Speaker 4: you and help you get there. That is like, if

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Speaker 4: I were to romanticize where I feel purposeful as an artist,

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Speaker 4: it's in that process.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't even think that's romantic. That seems pretty

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Speaker 1: factual to me. You are providing a really valuable service

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Speaker 1: to a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Thanks.

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Speaker 4: I'm grateful I get to do it. I think I

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Speaker 4: think poets do it. I think filmmakers do it. I

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Speaker 4: think writers do it.

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Speaker 2: Think.

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Speaker 4: I think that's why it's important for artists to face

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Speaker 4: the more difficult elements of their emotional experience. You know,

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Speaker 4: I think it's why you know when people ask me, like,

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Speaker 4: is it hard to write about the most difficult parts

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Speaker 4: of your life? Is it hard to write about these

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Speaker 4: difficult feelings? It feels the most purposeful when it's more difficult.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I really like that. It feels more purposeful when

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Speaker 3: it's difficult.

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Speaker 1: If this was like no big deal, would be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I could do this with my eyes closed, Like what

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Speaker 1: does it matter? I want to go back though, to

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Speaker 1: what you said in the very beginning of about you

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Speaker 1: think it's kind of silly that people say mental have emotions,

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Speaker 1: because I agree with you, and I think we've categorized

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Speaker 1: certain emotions as masculine and femine, that that one's okay

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Speaker 1: to have, that one's not okay. But you're right, and

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Speaker 1: if we actually opened up space to look around us

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Speaker 1: and see things more clearly. We would see that every day,

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Speaker 1: but because of the boxes people get put in like

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Speaker 1: think about fear or or I think not any feeling

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Speaker 1: and in to me, the way I view emotions is

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Speaker 1: that feelings are guides and they kind of like lead

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Speaker 1: us to what we need. So if I'm feeling something,

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Speaker 1: it's saying like, hey, hey, there's something going on, there's.

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Speaker 3: Something that you need, let's tend to it.

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Speaker 1: And so if we only let men feel certain things

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Speaker 1: like anger, it can even be seen as like cool

437
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Speaker 1: or like oh yeah, like he's protective and he's this,

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Speaker 1: and there's a whole thing about men and protection that

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Speaker 1: I won't go down. Well. If men are only allowed

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Speaker 1: to feel that, they don't get to explore like what

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Speaker 1: the actual like what's underneath any of that, while women

442
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,959
Speaker 1: can sometimes And if you're not in one of those boxes,

443
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 1: then who knows what your rules are? And maybe there

444
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 1: are like a mixture of them, and that makes it

445
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 1: even more confusing. But what happens if I, like, for example,

446
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: if I am having road rage.

447
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 3: I use this example all the time. I want to

448
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 3: know your thoughts on this.

449
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: If I am driving and let's say, for the sake

450
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 1: of this conversation.

451
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 3: I'm a dude.

452
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 1: Somebody who cuts me off and I'm like pissed, and

453
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 1: I honk my horn, I flip them off.

454
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 3: I'm like fuck you man, and blah.

455
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah blah blahah whatever. Okay, most people that's

456
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 1: road rage.

457
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 3: That's rage.

458
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 1: Most people would say like, oh okay, like rage anger,

459
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: Like okay, that's where it stops and there's nothing else

460
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: going on there. But what I actually think if we

461
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: were to boil that down and if feelings were like

462
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 1: equal and free for everybody, is it really anger that's

463
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: there or is there something else? Because when somebody cuts

464
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: you off, what happens is you maybe you almost gotten

465
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 1: a wreck, or maybe you like almost spilt your coffee

466
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: or like who knows what happened. But a lot of times,

467
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 1: underneath that rage is fear. And fear is an emotion

468
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 1: that is like so wonderful because it one it can

469
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: protect us, but also it shows us what's important to us.

470
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: And sometimes that's just basically our life is important to us.

471
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 1: But what we do is like men don't get to

472
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 1: go down that like ladder and see like okay that

473
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: actually I was scared, and what do I need? Well,

474
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 1: if I'm scared, do do I need protection? Do I

475
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: need care? Do I need comfort? No, you can't need

476
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: that because you're supposed to protect and you're supposed to care,

477
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: and you're sppitialian stuff, And so all of that to

478
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: say is it's not that personally that I see. It's

479
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: not that men don't have these emotions, that men are emotional.

480
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: When anybody says like, oh, I'm not very emotional, no

481
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: you are, you just kind of like stifle yourself and

482
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: you put all your emotions in this box and then

483
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: everything else is living underneath a rock somewhere that might

484
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: explode at any given moment.

485
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 4: I have a couple thoughts on that, and I want

486
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 4: to speak specifically to the protectiveness you mentioned, because we

487
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 4: were talking about it a bit earlier too. In my

488
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 4: own experience, whether you're a man, non binary woman, I

489
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 4: think all of us feel protective of the people we love,

490
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,719
Speaker 4: but in the context right now of cisgendered man, there

491
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 4: is absolutely that stereotype of we are the protector. I

492
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 4: actually don't think that's one that if you feel, if

493
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 4: that comes naturally to you, you feel you want to

494
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 4: protect your family. That's a beautiful thing. I don't think

495
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 4: anyone suggesting you should not feel that way. I think

496
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 4: the exciting part of the conversation is it's just maybe

497
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 4: expand what that means to protect the people you love.

498
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 4: You know, sure like that occasionally will mean you are

499
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 4: physically protecting the people you love. Depending on where you live,

500
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 4: probably not very often. But why can't your desire and

501
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 4: in your nature to be a protector, Why can't that

502
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 4: apply to protecting someone's emotional safety, someone's safety in themselves,

503
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 4: you know, because that's where we live on a daily basis.

504
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 4: You know, you're a man in a relationship with a

505
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 4: woman and you want to make that woman feel safe.

506
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 4: Isn't that safety, like a safety to be herself? In

507
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 4: making her feel safe to be herself means showing up

508
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 4: to her as a good listener, showing up for her

509
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 4: with consistency, with affection, Like that's being a pret So

510
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 4: I don't think it's about like when we talked about,

511
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 4: you know, we're not throwing out the baby with the

512
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 4: bathwater on some of these stereotypes like it's not all bad,

513
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 4: it's just a little bit of redefinition of like how

514
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 4: we shape protector.

515
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: It was about a year ago, maybe actually probably a

516
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: year and a half ago. I had a conversation with

517
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: Justin Baldoni, who wrote this book Man Enough.

518
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 3: I mean, his podcast is freaking incredible. So I was

519
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:25,239
Speaker 3: asking him.

520
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 1: I don't remember what I asked. He kind of like

521
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: gave it to me straight. He's so great and he's

522
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: an expert on this. It's what he's spending his life

523
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: work on. And I don't know what I asked him,

524
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: but he went on this kind of like it wasn't

525
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 1: a ramp, but he just said it was so much

526
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: like h that I was like, yes, But I think

527
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: I was talking about how like, if I'm dating a man,

528
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: I want him to be emotional. I want to be

529
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,719
Speaker 1: able to have emotional conversations. And there also is that

530
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: part of me that's like, well, he can't be too emotional,

531
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: so I want him to cry, but like I want

532
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: him to cry at certain things. And it's the whole

533
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: thing that I've had to dismantle myself. And he was like, yeah,

534
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: because there's this experience that we're all going through, and

535
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: we're all all kind of working through some most some

536
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: of us are where like a woman feels like she

537
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: needs to be protected, and so when we see something

538
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: that is in our society deemed as weak, which is

539
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: again emotions are seen as weak, where I see them

540
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 1: as like these are tools, these are guide, these are

541
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: amazing things. But if you show too much of them

542
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 1: or you can't control them with air quotes, then there

543
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: becomes this fear of the woman that the man can't

544
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: protect me. And he went down this whole rabbit trail

545
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: around like, well, why do we actually need to be protected?

546
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 3: Because there are there's other.

547
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: Men out there that we do feel we need to

548
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: be protected from. So I say all that because with

549
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: the idea that wait, there's other ways that somebody can

550
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: protect me. I might be in a relationship with somebody

551
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: who could like literally take anybody out. If somebody tries

552
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: to like hurt me in any physical way, he can

553
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: like karate chop, you know, like figure that out. But

554
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: I have haven't told them huge parts of me, Like

555
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: I don't feel safe enough to like actually share with

556
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: them experiences I had or beliefs I have about myself,

557
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: or I still feel like I have to perform to

558
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 1: be wanted by that person or I can't. I can't

559
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: show certain emotions else this person is going to think

560
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: ex of me. So you're bringing in this amazing idea

561
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: and I'm so obsessed with looking out words and really

562
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: digging into their meaning, Like protection, Why are we thinking

563
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: about that in this one way? When if you don't

564
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: feel like you can be yourself with your partner, no

565
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: matter what gender they identify with, you're not protected, right,

566
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I agree completely.

567
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 4: And if you're you know, if you're listening to this

568
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 4: as someone who feels a sense of you feel a

569
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 4: desire to be a protector for someone you're in a

570
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 4: relationship with, which I definitely do, what does that mean

571
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 4: other than make your partner feel safe? That's what that means.

572
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 4: To protect someone means make them feel safe. What is

573
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 4: on a daily basis it mean to make your partner

574
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 4: feel safe?

575
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: Right?

576
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:15,239
Speaker 1: Like?

577
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: That can be so very many things.

578
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't mean beat up the guy down the street, Like,

579
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: that's not what it means at all the majority.

580
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 4: I mean, maybe once a year, if you live in

581
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 4: the right neighborhood, it means that. But like on a

582
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 4: daily basis, it probably means emotional things. It probably means

583
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 4: being in touch enough with your emotions that your partner

584
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 4: isn't going to feel judged when they share theirs with you.

585
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 4: And to just to what you're saying with Justin Baldoni,

586
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 4: I mean I love him, big fan, like cannot wait

587
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 4: to meet.

588
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: Him, would love to talk.

589
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 3: You need to be on his podcast. I would love

590
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 3: to be on his You would be a perfect guest.

591
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 4: Like when he you know, cries on that podcast, Like

592
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 4: there's something revolutionary about that. But also I think there's

593
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 4: a nuance to that that like being in touch with

594
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 4: your emotions as a quote unquote man doesn't just mean

595
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 4: like every time you feel something you cry. It means

596
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 4: when you are in a setting where it is safe

597
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 4: to do so, you aren't stopping yourself because of the

598
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 4: way you've internalized what it means to be a man.

599
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 4: No one's saying that, like, you know, you should, you know,

600
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 4: someone should say something hurtful to you on the job

601
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 4: and then you should just start crying, you know, Like that's.

602
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 6: That's not that's not what anyone's fighting for, right It's

603
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 6: why like even when you hear athlete like you know

604
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 6: this might be like slightly controversial amongst the community around

605
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 6: reshaping masculinity.

606
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: But like you know, when athletes.

607
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 4: Say, like, you know, you don't cry on the court,

608
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 4: that's a different like we can be discerning about this, like, yeah,

609
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 4: maybe it does show weakness to cry on a sports field,

610
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 4: like that doesn't. But that's a different fucking setting. Then

611
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 4: you get home, you have it, you're with your family

612
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 4: or your partner or your children, and something really sad happens,

613
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 4: whatever it is. You're having a conversation about trauma, you're

614
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 4: having a conversation about, you know, issues in your youth,

615
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 4: you're having a conversation about someone who's passed.

616
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: In that setting.

617
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 4: Strength can mean crying in that setting, because it's weak

618
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 4: to think you can't be seen that way. It's weak

619
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 4: to not be secure enough to let the people you

620
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 4: love be seen that way. Like redefining masculina doesn't mean

621
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 4: we're just walking around sobbing all the time.

622
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: Right, which we have to be disserving.

623
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: Right Again, that goes to we're not getting rid of it,

624
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: And I you're opening up a whole other conversation which

625
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: I won't take you completely down, but I have this

626
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: real like thing about intimacy and vulnerability, and like, yeah,

627
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: we have where there's a movement and Brene Brown is

628
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: leading the pack and we need, yeah, we need to

629
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 1: actually like access that part of us.

630
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 3: And it is very important.

631
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: And I don't need to tell my trauma to every

632
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: single person I meet or go on a date with,

633
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: or or think is nice or or find funny. Like

634
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: that's first of all, that's not intimacy and vulnerability. That's

635
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: just information sharing. That can be trauma dumping. That's trauma dumping.

636
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: Is not intimacy. And so I think that we have

637
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: as we are like redefining a lot of things right now,

638
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: which is so important. What we're doing is we're taking

639
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 1: out that discernment part. We're just putting We're going from

640
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: over here to overhere. And first of all, that's terrifying

641
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: for a lot of people, and so some people are

642
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: just like.

643
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 3: No, not doing that.

644
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: You want me to cry everywhere I go. No, I'm

645
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: not doing that. Well great, because we're not asking you to.

646
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,479
Speaker 1: So thank you for saying that, Because you're right, there

647
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: are spaces where actually, if I want to like access

648
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: that part of me that I feel like is shut down, I.

649
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 3: Have to do it in places that are safe.

650
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: So if it's not safe to do it like literally, like,

651
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: if I want to learn how to be vulnerable, I

652
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: need to do it in places that are safe, because

653
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: if I'm vulnerable to every person I meet, I'm going

654
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: to have a lot of experiences that say, hey, don't

655
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: do that anymore. And then I'm going to create, whether

656
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: it's a trauma bond or a belief about myself. And

657
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: it's the same thing with masculinity of maybe one day

658
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: will there will be a space where like we don't

659
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,479
Speaker 1: even have to have these conversations and everybody is just

660
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: like a bubble of love. But that's not where we

661
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: are right now, and so because of that, we have

662
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: to actually like track and say, Okay, this is a

663
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: space where like this is welcome. And maybe that's even

664
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,719
Speaker 1: stretching it too far. Maybe it's sometimes it's not welcome

665
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: and I still can be myself and there's work to

666
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: be done around that.

667
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 3: But I have to have.

668
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: The ability to say, wait, I believe that this is

669
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: an okay part of me, but this isn't the place

670
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: to do that because it would be harmful to do

671
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: it here.

672
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 3: I have to have.

673
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: The ability to say, wait, I believe that this is

674
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: an okay part of me. But this isn't the place

675
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: to do that because it would be harmful to do

676
00:33:59,400 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: it here.

677
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's hard.

678
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that is a hard thing to go about

679
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 4: doing because being able to differentiate between good discomfort like

680
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 4: uncomfortable but pushed through discomfort and no discomfort, don't do

681
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 4: that anymore bad that's hard.

682
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 2: Knowing the difference is hard, and you make mistakes in that,

683
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 2: oh totally.

684
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 4: Also, being discerning is hard. Being not looking at things

685
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 4: in the binary is hard because sure, it's it's simpler

686
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 4: to be like, okay, this is what I was taught.

687
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 4: Being a one of the two genders means growing up

688
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 4: in whatever framework of a mentality I've grown up in,

689
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 4: it's easier to be like okay, Like living a life

690
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 4: correctly means just doing that, But dismantling that means there's

691
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 4: now a lot more options, which requires a lot more

692
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 4: thought and fitting into you know, what does it mean

693
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 4: to be myself separate from the things that I've learned

694
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 4: to be myself within right, but not completely separate? Like Also,

695
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,720
Speaker 4: what do I still want to take from that? Like that?

696
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 4: That's just that's a lot of work. Yeah, and I

697
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 4: think that's why, you know, I don't really have all

698
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 4: that much judgment for people who you know, haven't found

699
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 4: that or are like a little bit adverse to it

700
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 4: because it makes sense, like it's challenging, it's not an

701
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 4: easy it's not like you.

702
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: Just do it thing.

703
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wish that it was that way, but it's

704
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: not at all.

705
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,959
Speaker 1: And as we go through those spaces, what people maybe

706
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: don't talk about as much is that the more you

707
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: open yourself up, the more I've opened myself up, the

708
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: more people are going to open themselves up to like

709
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 1: expanding their view of what they can be and how

710
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: they can be. The more you're also opening yourself up

711
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 1: for criticism and judgment and speculation and all the things

712
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: that don't feel great. And we have to learn and

713
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: it's a process. We have to learn that like people

714
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: agreeing with us or people under even understanding us, isn't

715
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: like a measure of.

716
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 3: Like doing it right, like totally.

717
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: Just because somebody understands me, they might have the wrong idea.

718
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: And I have to stop basing my actions and the

719
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: way I go out and experience the world on other

720
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 1: people's understanding of how I'm living, because you're never and

721
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 1: there's no way to get a one hundred percent accuracy

722
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: on people understanding you and agreeing with you.

723
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 3: There's no way.

724
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: But the more I'm going to kind of color outside

725
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 1: of those lines, the more people won't get me right now.

726
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: And that's tough.

727
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, even like calling back to something we

728
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 4: were talking about a while ago, like the subject matter

729
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 4: of my new music it's a little bit a tad

730
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 4: more controversial than the subject matter of.

731
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 2: My last album. This is true because.

732
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 4: The nuances of being left are far more explored in

733
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 4: songwriting than the nuances of leaving.

734
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: I want to say, like you're doing the Lord's work

735
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: because like, no, people aren't talking about that.

736
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 3: That's an exaggeration. But like when I listen to your

737
00:36:58,560 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 3: new song.

738
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: The first time I listened to it, I literally texted

739
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 1: my friends and I said, well, if somebody's going to

740
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: break up with me, this is how I would want

741
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: them to do it right. And I know it's like

742
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: not that simple, because again, I might be that person

743
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: on the other side that's like this doesn't make sense,

744
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: Like I might not have learned this idea that you're

745
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: placing out there yet, and it's not an idea that's

746
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: talked about and for people to actually understand it, we.

747
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 3: Have to talk about it.

748
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 4: And I understand why it's not as talked about or

749
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 4: explored because we villainize the people who have left us.

750
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 4: Not all of us do, but a lot of us

751
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 4: villainize the people who have left us. And I understand

752
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 4: why because anger is I think easier to feel than sadness.

753
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 4: It's very hard to be sad at someone. You can't

754
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 4: be sad at someone, you can be angry at someone.

755
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 4: So if you're if you have a meant sadness, I

756
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 4: think you because you can't be sad at you convert

757
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 4: that sadness into something ellis and that's what we project.

758
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 4: That makes sense, But it's the vantage point that I

759
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 4: have right now, and I do feel creatively purposeful in

760
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 4: exploring it right now because it does feel under explored.

761
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 4: But that doesn't come with any that doesn't come with

762
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 4: the lack of recognition that being on the other side

763
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 4: of things is fucking horrible. It's fucking horrible, and it

764
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 4: does I have no lack of empathy for how horrible

765
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 4: it is to be on the other side of these songs.

766
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,399
Speaker 1: Do you feel less supported in the music you're making

767
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 1: right now because.

768
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: Of that it's a really good question.

769
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 4: I do feel it's been a bit polarizing, you know,

770
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 4: the response is to I mean, I've put a one

771
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 4: song from this body of work, but there's quite a

772
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 4: lot more that explores the nuances of the emotional experience.

773
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 4: But on this song on when you think of me,

774
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 4: you know, it's kind of either been like fuck you,

775
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 4: fuck this, or it's been this helped me understand the

776
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 4: end of relationship in a way that he would have

777
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 4: never been able to explain to me, and I'm so grateful.

778
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 4: Or actually, one of my favorite ones was this helped

779
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 4: me forgive someone who I don't know if he deserved it,

780
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 4: but I needed to forgive him for myself. And these

781
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 4: are the words he never would have said to me,

782
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 4: you know. Like that obviously as feedback is like really meaningful.

783
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, I get it, and I my

784
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: goal is not to be defensive. My goal is not.

785
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 4: To be like, hey, like you, you know, you're demonizing

786
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 4: the person in the role of walking away, and here's

787
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 4: all the reasons why you shouldn't. I'm not even trying

788
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 4: to say that, but I guess I am saying too.

789
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 4: I just I don't know there's not even like a mission.

790
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: Statement in It's just I think that there is maybe

791
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: not a mission statement, but there is a lot of power.

792
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 1: And again, I've only heard this one song, so I'm

793
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: very interested in hearing more. But there is a perspective

794
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: that again, like I have not heard and it doesn't

795
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 1: necessarily apply to my situations where I've wanted to hate somebody,

796
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: but I can totally understand and sit in a space

797
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,280
Speaker 1: where I'm like, oh my God, like maybe he isn't

798
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: this horrible, bad, terrible guy that needs to do whatever,

799
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: or a girl that needs to do whatever, or maybe

800
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: there is this space that can that somebody can coexist

801
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: and live. And maybe that doesn't make it easier for

802
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: me to feel, but it actually leads me to healing

803
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: a lot faster.

804
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 4: If a relationship bends and there isn't abuse, like setting

805
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 4: aside when there is abuse, because that's different. So when

806
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 4: a relationship bends without abuse and there isn't infidelity, there

807
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 4: isn't you know, any of the ugly ways of.

808
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 2: Relationship can end.

809
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 4: There's just two people tragically growing apart, tragically growing apart

810
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 4: in a way that neither of them wanted, and one

811
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 4: person recognized that recognizes that in a way that the

812
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 4: other doesn't want to or doesn't want to accept. It's

813
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 4: an extraordinarily painful thing. And I don't know very many

814
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 4: songs that recognize that love can be over and also real.

815
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 4: And for me, that is a more peaceful place to exist.

816
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: Now.

817
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 4: I know, it's a lot easier for me to exist

818
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 4: there having it been my decision. And it's a lot

819
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 4: harder to come to that awareness when it's something that

820
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 4: happened that you didn't want to happen.

821
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 2: And I recognize that, and I have empathy for that.

822
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 4: But for me in either of my last two relationships,

823
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 4: like I have no interest in looking back at those

824
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 4: relationships and in trying to write over beautiful memories with

825
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 4: you know, the filter of disdain, like I don't want

826
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 4: to do that.

827
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 1: It makes me sad, well, yes, because I think a

828
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: struggle that I no longer have is that in a relationship,

829
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: even if when it did end poorly, I still had

830
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: so many good moments, like so many good memories and

831
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: so many good experiences, and I felt the need to

832
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: tarnish them all and say.

833
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 3: That they were all alive.

834
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: But like, wait a second, we did really care about

835
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: each other when we went on that trip, and really

836
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: we did laugh a lot, and we did do that thing,

837
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: and we did make that and we did go to

838
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: that place. And I don't have to ruin all of

839
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: those memories because that was me living my life and

840
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: that was a part of my life I really liked.

841
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,479
Speaker 1: And that's really hard for people. And I think there's

842
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: like so much freedom in this idea you're putting out there.

843
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: We're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you don't have

844
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: to do that. Those things can still all be really

845
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: really good, and those can be memories that you hold

846
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: on forever. Maybe you can't feel maybe you can't sit

847
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: with those right now, maybe you need some time, but like,

848
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: you don't have to throw those away, And it's easier

849
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,919
Speaker 1: for us to say I need I remember saying going

850
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: through a breakup, like I wish you would have just

851
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: cheated on me, or I wish you would have done this,

852
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: because I just want to hate them so much because

853
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: it would have been easier for me to throw everything

854
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: away than realize that parts of that were good and

855
00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 1: it just wasn't gonna work.

856
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's exactly it. I think that's exactly it.

857
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you hadn't written this song yet, so I

858
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: had to figure that out on my own.

859
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,479
Speaker 2: I mean no, I mean it's exactly what you said.

860
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 4: It's just it's easier to tell yourself that it was

861
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 4: all a lie than it is to come to terms

862
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 4: with something that was really beautiful and you don't get

863
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 4: to have it anymore.

864
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you did have it.

865
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

866
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: Well, we're just going to end this one on a

867
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: sad happy note, a mixture that's the both and that,

868
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: like there's good and there's icky and all of this,

869
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: And I think that is like the great risk we take, right,

870
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: that's the great risk we take with any relationship, that

871
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 1: any relationship can end or change or shift, and we

872
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: get to make the choice do we want to risk

873
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: that or do we want to live with this like

874
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: pit or this desire or this longing that we just

875
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: refuse to let ourselves follow.

876
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 3: We get to make those decisions.

877
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 2: Yeah it's Thomas. Yeah, Hey, this was so nice. Thank

878
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Speaker 2: you for having me.

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Speaker 3: Oh this was amazing.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I could talk to you for ten years,

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Speaker 1: But I assume you have things to do and I'm

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Speaker 1: have another things to do as well. M