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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey thereon Welcome Back.

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Speaker 1: It's the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci

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Speaker 1: and of course Joe Madden. Joe, it was bound to

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Speaker 1: happen and hit other sports, but we need to talk

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Speaker 1: about gambling in baseball. With the arrests of Cleveland pitchers

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Speaker 1: Louis Ortiz and Emmanuel Class, this is really interesting because

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Speaker 1: it seems like tip of the iceberg here and hopefully

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Speaker 1: that it's not. But first of all, Joe, I know

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Speaker 1: you've been in the dugout. It's been a point of

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Speaker 1: contention for clubs for years to inform players of the

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Speaker 1: dudes and the don'ts, mostly don'ts about gambling. What is

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Speaker 1: different now you think about the culture of gambling and

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Speaker 1: why it's a concern across all sports.

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Speaker 3: It's ubiquitous. I mean, it's it's everywhere.

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Speaker 4: Like I could just pick up my phone right here

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Speaker 4: if I chose to, and I could make a bet.

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Speaker 4: At least that there was a time you had to

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Speaker 4: work to make a bet a little bit. You had

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Speaker 4: to go to a local bar room, go to the

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Speaker 4: back room, go see Rocky, hang out, have a cheese

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Speaker 4: steak Holgi with maybe a glass of Yangling and you

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Speaker 4: make a bet. But nowadays you could just pick up

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Speaker 4: your phone. I don't, I honestly don't get it. I

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Speaker 4: really don't. I know everybody the government's stayed in local, federal,

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Speaker 4: they're all primarily stay local. They're trying to create revenue

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Speaker 4: through this, through having people gamble away money that they

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Speaker 4: can afford to do. I mean, there's certain people that

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Speaker 4: could afford to lose, and there's probably I don't even

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Speaker 4: know what the percentages that cannot afford to lose, and

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Speaker 4: it's heavy. So I've not against it. I've been against

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Speaker 4: it from the beginning. I can't believe that we advertise it.

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Speaker 4: It's like it's like when you watch the nightly news

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Speaker 4: at six thirty whatever. And I used to watch that

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Speaker 4: often and now I get my new sources elsewhere, but

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Speaker 4: we're always advertising illness. I mean, for that half hour

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Speaker 4: that are always about your ill and take this drug

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Speaker 4: because or because it's going to make you feel better,

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Speaker 4: or just they create a list of symptoms that you got,

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Speaker 4: oh that's me, and then eventually you got to go

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Speaker 4: to your doctor. You get this pill and all of

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Speaker 4: a sudden you know, you're taking stuff you really shouldn't

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Speaker 4: be taken. So we're advertising illness, we're advertising betting, we're

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Speaker 4: advertising so many things that are really not right.

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Speaker 3: I don't get it. And now what do you expect?

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Speaker 3: Was it this?

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Speaker 4: Like talked about a lot as you're going to permit

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Speaker 4: betting and now we're talking about permitting a casino near

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Speaker 4: what city field in New York?

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Speaker 2: Right or they're trying or whatever.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So but there's it's it's just makes zero sense.

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Speaker 4: Every spring training you have to read that big, long

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Speaker 4: piece of litigation regarding not gambling on baseball, not gambling

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Speaker 4: on baseball and sports in general, and it just goes

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Speaker 4: on deaf ears. I mean, there was a time I

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Speaker 4: think it could be a little bit more scary, but

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Speaker 4: in today's culture, nothing scarce. We've made everything too easy

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Speaker 4: to doomed. It's the downgrading of deviant behavior that's becoming

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Speaker 4: absolutely normalized. So blessed, I have expected it. It's gonna

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Speaker 4: keep getting worse. I don't get it. We're the grown

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Speaker 4: ups and it's all about money, and I don't I'm

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Speaker 4: not into it.

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Speaker 1: That's all well said, and I completely agree with you,

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Speaker 1: Joe that we have become a society of convenience, and

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Speaker 1: that includes the abnormal that we're making more convenient.

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Speaker 2: Not only convenient, but addictive.

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Speaker 1: We know that gambling is addictive, and with technology now

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Speaker 1: at your fingertips, you're talking about systems that are designed

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Speaker 1: to make gambling addictive. They will tail our bet props

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Speaker 1: to you based on your betting patterns. They will start

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Speaker 1: feeding you more money in your account to.

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Speaker 2: Keep you going.

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Speaker 1: It's just crazy that this is all happening in it

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Speaker 1: in plain daylight, really, and people are getting too deep now.

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of the conversation Joe is about

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Speaker 1: how could someone like Emmanuel class And by the way,

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Speaker 1: the agents for both players have denied charges here, so

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Speaker 1: we'll see how it plays out in a court of law.

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Speaker 1: But Class A is a guy working under a twenty

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Speaker 1: million dollar contract. He also had an option for twenty

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Speaker 1: seven and twenty eight at another eighteen million dollars. And

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Speaker 1: we're talking about betting pattern here that was going on

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Speaker 1: for two years, two years in which he and these

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Speaker 1: associates cleared four hundred and fifty thousand dollars over two years.

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Speaker 1: So I know a lot of the reaction was why

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Speaker 1: is a guy. Now you know, making five six million

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Speaker 1: dollars a year dabbling in two thousand dollars prop bets.

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Speaker 1: The answer to the question is, and you touched on this, Joe,

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Speaker 1: it's too easy. Oh he thought it was anyway until

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Speaker 1: he got caught. It's these micro bets, these prop bets.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't like these pitchers, according to the indictment,

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Speaker 1: we're saying I'm going to bet against my team to

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Speaker 1: win or lose. No, what they're doing is they're betting on, say,

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Speaker 1: the first pitch of an inning being below a certain

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Speaker 1: mile per hour or being a ball.

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Speaker 2: Or a strike.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure the player, the athlete, and this applies

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Speaker 1: to other sports as well as thinking I'm not shaving games,

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Speaker 1: I'm not shaving points, I'm not throwing games. This is

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Speaker 1: very harmless. And my buddies can earn a buck or

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Speaker 1: two here, even more than that. So Classe gets to

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Speaker 1: the mound and he's going to say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: the prop bet here is my first pitch is going

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Speaker 1: to be below ninety eight miles an hour. I'll just

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Speaker 1: throw a slider, or the prop bet is baller strike

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Speaker 1: first pitch.

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Speaker 2: I'll just throw a slider and make sure that I

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Speaker 2: bounce it.

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Speaker 1: There was actually one circumstance where Andy Pie has the Dodgers,

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Speaker 1: was the pitcher the prop bet or the batter. The

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Speaker 1: prop bet was baller strike first pitch, so he intention

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Speaker 1: they throws a slider in the dirt and Pots swings

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Speaker 1: at it. So they lost that bet. But people need

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Speaker 1: to understand that these micro bets are a big part

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Speaker 1: of the problem. You can bet on virtually anything, and

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Speaker 1: in this case, they're thinking.

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Speaker 2: You know what, no one's going to know.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know what, given the algorithms today, Joe, that

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Speaker 1: that you know, these betting companies have, they will find

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Speaker 1: anomalous patterns. So when they see a ton of money on,

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Speaker 1: say the first pitch of a Cleveland game in the

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Speaker 1: in the eighth inning, they're like, what's going on here?

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Speaker 1: And you just kind of follow the data in terms

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Speaker 1: of betting patterns. So I'm glad baseball has come out

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Speaker 1: and with the cooperation of the betting companies, Joe, they

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Speaker 1: said basically, no more bets of more than two hundred

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Speaker 1: dollars on these pitch level bets, you know, plus or

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Speaker 1: minus the miles barrow or ball or strike that's a

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Speaker 1: start and I think as they found out and they

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Speaker 1: got in bed with these gambling companies, that there are

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Speaker 1: unintended consequence and they're just finding it out. So I

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Speaker 1: think the idea of capping those bets at two hundred,

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Speaker 1: to me, I think they shouldn't even be legal.

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Speaker 2: You just get rid of a period.

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Speaker 1: And I know the governor of Ohio has argued for that,

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Speaker 1: but at least this is a step forward.

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Speaker 3: Wow, so much right there? Where does it start?

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Speaker 4: Guys that are making that much money feeling compelled to

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Speaker 4: do something like this? Is it a thrill component? Is

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Speaker 4: there a power involved? Are they, like you said, I

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Speaker 4: think you insinuated? Are they trying to take care of friends?

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Speaker 4: In other words, tell somebody, a family member, whatever, if

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Speaker 4: you bet here, you have a pretty good chance of

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Speaker 4: winning a lot of money based on what I'm going

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Speaker 4: to do.

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Speaker 3: Or not do.

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Speaker 4: All this stuff is really brutal. It's disgusting. I don't

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Speaker 4: like any of it. To even think, Okay, now we're

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Speaker 4: going to rationalize this and put a cap on the

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Speaker 4: amount of money bet on me. That is ridiculous. It's

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Speaker 4: just so wrong on so many different levels. And to

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Speaker 4: think that, to think that you didn't think that all

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Speaker 4: this stuff was going to lead you down the wrong

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Speaker 4: path at some point is crazy. They had to have

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Speaker 4: had these conversations. They had to like almost like decide

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Speaker 4: how much are we going to be able to absorb

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Speaker 4: or want to absorb before we have to make changes

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Speaker 4: to all this. We just let it go until something

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Speaker 4: happens that will make the alterations. Honestly, I don't get it.

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Speaker 4: I I've said that from Jump Street. It makes zero

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Speaker 4: sense to me that all of a sudden, now you

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Speaker 4: go back to the Black Sox scandal and you go

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Speaker 4: to mister Rose and you do everything else that we've done.

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Speaker 4: Jack Molinas in basketball, what was at NYU back in

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Speaker 4: the day. He actually played basketball in Hazelton when I

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Speaker 4: was a kid for the Hazelton Hawks. I mean, all

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Speaker 4: these things have gone on fears, but now it's becoming easy.

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Speaker 4: And as it becomes easier to do these things. And

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Speaker 4: then at last point, you say, you know, talked about

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Speaker 4: the salary that they're making. But then again, who knows

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Speaker 4: how they've invested their money and who knows how much

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Speaker 4: that they needed a quick hit to make something good

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Speaker 4: or to make something good and not necessarily jump into

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Speaker 4: this big pile of money that's being invested, which would

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Speaker 4: become more obvious. There's so many different reasons and layers,

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Speaker 4: and it's kind of a novel waiting to be written

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Speaker 4: by Nelson demil Man. It's just not good. Stop You're

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Speaker 4: not going to stop it. I understand that. I mean,

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Speaker 4: and I'm just like I said, I look at players,

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Speaker 4: former players that now do commercials for this stuff. Wow,

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Speaker 4: I really, I don't even see why that's legal to permit,

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Speaker 4: even like athlete's even former athletes that are now somehow

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Speaker 4: involved in the sport. How are they even able or

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Speaker 4: capable or permit it to advertise for this stuff. Doesn't

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Speaker 4: that somehow make them accessories in some way in regards

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Speaker 4: to if this does go sideways, I don't get it.

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Speaker 3: I don't get it.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that up, Joe.

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Speaker 1: It bothers me as well, because to me, it's no

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Speaker 1: different than saying, signing an endorsement deal for cigarettes smoking cigarettes, right,

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Speaker 1: you are promoting something that's really not healthy for the

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Speaker 1: general public and in fact, can really destroy a lot

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Speaker 1: of people. There are some point, especially some of these

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Speaker 1: athletes who have made a lot of money, and I

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Speaker 1: know that's sort of besides, it's the point, but it

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Speaker 1: is part of the equation here. Do you really need

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Speaker 1: it to get in bed with something like that just

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Speaker 1: because someone comes to you with an offer and it's

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Speaker 1: easy money, and you film a couple of commercials and

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Speaker 1: you make a couple of appearances. Think about what you're

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Speaker 1: doing here and what you're promoting. Because I can tell

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Speaker 1: you this, Joe, I'm not sure if you've noticed this.

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Speaker 1: And I know a society in general has become less civil.

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Speaker 1: We know that, and partly that is just social media

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Speaker 1: and just the turn of venom and negativity. But I've

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Speaker 1: noticed around ballparks, and I can't speak to other sports.

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Speaker 1: I'm not in other stadiums and arenas, but in baseball,

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Speaker 1: the crowds have gotten nastier and you talk to players

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Speaker 1: and it totally is true. And I'm telling you that

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Speaker 1: gambling is a part of the equation. I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: it's the only thing, because again, people are able to

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Speaker 1: vent their frustrations and their anger and amplified on social media.

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Speaker 2: I get that.

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Speaker 1: But now you go to a baseball game and you

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Speaker 1: legally have money riding on that game, that player, that performance,

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Speaker 1: and when it doesn't turn your way.

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Speaker 2: You've lost money.

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Speaker 1: Now it's not just your favorite team lost the game,

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Speaker 1: but your heart earned dough has gotten down the tube.

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Speaker 1: And I've seen that in terms of just the anger

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Speaker 1: that people and I've heard players talk about this as

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Speaker 1: well too, directed at them, whether it's their fantasy team

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Speaker 1: or especially you know, placing a prop bet, whatever it

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Speaker 1: may be. There's a residual cost to this. It's not

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Speaker 1: just oh, you lost a couple of shekels. It's a

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Speaker 1: downgrading of our society and civilness.

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Speaker 3: No doubt.

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Speaker 4: You're describing there as winter ball as it used to

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Speaker 4: or used to exist anyway. I haven't been there in

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Speaker 4: a while, but that was a big part of the

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Speaker 4: culture there, gambling in the stands and a lot of

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Speaker 4: the booming that would ensue, like when when somebody lost

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Speaker 4: the bet because of a lack of performance or somebody

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Speaker 4: wont to bet because of performance.

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Speaker 3: But you're talking about this.

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Speaker 4: This cocktail that we've been brewing, and it's a combination.

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Speaker 4: You take social media where it is right now and

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Speaker 4: again the ease with which amateurs are controlling professionals in

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Speaker 4: so many different ways, and you combine that will legalize

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Speaker 4: legalized gambling. That's another thing. I legalize gambling. What's gambling?

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Speaker 4: Now we're going to say it's legal or illegal. So

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Speaker 4: when we start placing like different descriptive words in front

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Speaker 4: of different other words, it's like, really, you're going to

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Speaker 4: get in bed like legal gambling. So social media plus

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Speaker 4: legal gambling equals a recipe for disaster. That's the cocktail

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Speaker 4: I don't want to drink from. And yes, whether you're

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Speaker 4: a manager, a player, a coach, possibly whatever just involves

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Speaker 4: somehow when it goes sideways and it's not in your

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Speaker 4: favor and people start losing bets and money, especially when

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Speaker 4: they can't afford to Wow, it's just something really awful

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Speaker 4: is going to happen.

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Speaker 3: It just it has to.

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Speaker 4: And that's the sadness about how we react to things

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Speaker 4: here in our world, in our society, is that you

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Speaker 4: wait until it gets really really bad or something catastrophic occurs,

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Speaker 4: and then all of a sudden, everybody comes rushing to

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Speaker 4: the forefront and you got to start changing roles and

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Speaker 4: you start pointing things out. Every starts pointing fingers. Everybody

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Speaker 4: becomes like the reason why the culpable the part of

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Speaker 4: this movement here and and then it's so obvious. It's like, oh, really,

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Speaker 4: you didn't notice that happening, that that that wasn't going

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Speaker 4: to happen at some point. Well, I I I'd love

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Speaker 4: to see somehow the breaks put on this. I don't

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Speaker 4: see how it's going to be put on this, but

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Speaker 4: it's it's not good and it's just going to get worse.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're right about that, because this is going to

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Speaker 1: be a game of whack a mole. I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: not sure where the next controversy legal issue is.

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Speaker 2: Going to come up, but it's going to come.

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Speaker 1: As you mentioned, your point is it's ubilulous, it's easy,

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Speaker 1: and as far as the temptations for people involved in

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Speaker 1: the competition, whether it's managers, umpires, referees, coaches, you name it,

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Speaker 1: information is the coin of the realm and they have

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Speaker 1: access to information. And I'm not sure what the next

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Speaker 1: scandal is going to be, but it's coming.

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Speaker 2: It's going to keep coming.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing Joe I kind of worry about

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Speaker 1: is now that you're talking about now a generation growing

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Speaker 1: up without those sort of hurdles you mentioned when you

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Speaker 1: had to bet before it took effort.

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Speaker 2: You have to do it on the sly.

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Speaker 1: It's so easy now that people are indoctrinated now at

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Speaker 1: an easy age, and I would be concerned that that

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Speaker 1: is my entry gate for fandom, that people are getting

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Speaker 1: into these sports now just on the gambling component alone.

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Speaker 2: Not that you love the.

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Speaker 1: Sport or your favorite team or your favorite player, but

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Speaker 1: it's a way to, I guess, enjoy the concept of gambling,

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Speaker 1: that that is your entry into it. I would worry

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Speaker 1: about that if I were sports, that that is the

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Speaker 1: hook for people getting involved in my sport.

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Speaker 4: Hundred percent, you know, one hundred percent correct. I mean

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Speaker 4: I've been thinking about that also. Why you know, you

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Speaker 4: talk to everybody's talking about the uptick in you know,

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Speaker 4: the baseball interest this past year. Why i'd want to

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Speaker 4: believe that it was we saw a World Series and

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Speaker 4: I just you know, play golf, I go to the

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Speaker 4: I go to ava a restaurant, I hang out, and

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Speaker 4: which you think about that World Series?

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Speaker 3: That was great. It was great, It was very entertaining,

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Speaker 3: it was good. It was good for baseball.

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Speaker 4: And I think the part about that that hasn't been

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Speaker 4: spoken about it because it was one of the more

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Speaker 4: extemporaneous seven game series you've seen more recently, where.

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Speaker 3: The plan blew up a lot.

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Speaker 4: You know, the managers really had to manage, and I

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Speaker 4: think you saw real baseball being brought to the forefront

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Speaker 4: outside of the you know, the constant scream from the

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Speaker 4: bullpen to the mound, and the kind of like the

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Speaker 4: spring training method of playing World Series baseball. Other than that, though,

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Speaker 4: I mean, but part of that was the fact that

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Speaker 4: managers really had to be nimble during this series. And

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Speaker 4: then you talk about over usage, which god, I mean,

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Speaker 4: you got crucified for that several years ago, but now

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Speaker 4: it's just part of the landscape where guys are pitching

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Speaker 4: nearly every game, every day for the whole time they're

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Speaker 4: in the playoffs. So that, to me was the most

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Speaker 4: interesting part about the World Series was that it was

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Speaker 4: the next temporaneous World Series where it was kind of

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Speaker 4: old school, and I really enjoyed it for that, where

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Speaker 4: the planning was done before the game. You saw how

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Speaker 4: plans blew up, and then you saw how people had

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Speaker 4: to react, and I thought that was great. But back

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Speaker 4: to your original point, why is it becoming more popular?

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Speaker 4: There's no question gambling has led to the popularity, So

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Speaker 4: thus does that make it good color has made led

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Speaker 4: to the popularity uniforms and no longer uniforms. Listen, I

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Speaker 4: used to wear white shoes when I was a kid

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Speaker 4: playing high school football, even though everybody else is wearing black.

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Speaker 3: I get it.

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Speaker 4: I did some screwy things. My hair was long at

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Speaker 4: a time when it was supposed to be short. But

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Speaker 4: to what extent do you permit all of this? So

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Speaker 4: uniform is no longer uniform Backflip's history. Onic celebration constant

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Speaker 4: celebration is part of it. I mean, what is the

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Speaker 4: lure here? Because the lure I don't know that is fundamental,

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Speaker 4: really clean, good baseball. Although, like I said, I think

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Speaker 4: part of why people enjoyed all of this World Series,

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Speaker 4: but there was a lot of that. There was a

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Speaker 4: lot of drama, man, and teams didn't quit, and both

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Speaker 4: sides kept fighting back.

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Speaker 3: And you had one team that.

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Speaker 4: Actually played better baseball losing the World Series, whereas the

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Speaker 4: one with the veteran kind of a group that never

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Speaker 4: lost their pois or confidence took advantage of really some breaks,

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Speaker 4: but to their credit, they took advantage of them. So

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Speaker 4: there was a lot going on there. But I think

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Speaker 4: I'd be concerned, Like the House of cards. What is

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Speaker 4: really going on here? Where's the popularity base? Is it

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Speaker 4: rooted in baseball or is it rooted in other items?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be Pollyannis here and I want to

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Speaker 1: believe that it was the baseball because I've had more

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Speaker 1: people come up to me and say they began rooting

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Speaker 1: for the Toronto Blue Jays throughout the World Series. They're

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Speaker 1: not Blue Jays fans, but they love the way that

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Speaker 1: Toronto Blue Jays played baseball. There was something infectious about

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Speaker 1: the way Toronto played. Now they're going up against the

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Speaker 1: team with the big payroll. I get it that's part

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Speaker 1: of it too, people like the underdog. But I truly

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Speaker 1: believe it was because if you sat down to watch

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Speaker 1: these games and you're a casual fan, the Toronto Blue

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Speaker 1: Jays hooked you because they were putting the ball in play.

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Speaker 1: You weren't sitting there watching swing and miss after swing

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Speaker 1: and miss and pop up after pop up. You were

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Speaker 1: watching great defensive plays, interesting players in the base running.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it wasn't very smart, but it was at least interesting.

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Speaker 1: But I think that Toronto Blue Jays were the best

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Speaker 1: thing that happened to baseball for a while, and as

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Speaker 1: Isaiah kind of Felefa told me, we're trying to change baseball.

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Speaker 1: In other words, they're trying to bring it back to

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Speaker 1: where it was twenty thirty years ago with the ball

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Speaker 1: and play. I want to believe Joe that maybe that's

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Speaker 1: a window for the way forward for this game that

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Speaker 1: I realized not every team is going to play that way.

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Speaker 1: I still go back to the fact now six straight

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Speaker 1: years the world champion has finished in the top four

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Speaker 1: in home runs, and you look at how the Dodgers

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Speaker 1: won the World Series, home runs had a lot to

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Speaker 1: do with it, if not more than any other element.

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Speaker 1: But I do believe I just from the feedback guy

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Speaker 1: got Joe that people enjoyed watching this World Series because

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Speaker 1: it was pacedway well and because of the way Toronto

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Speaker 1: played it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, pitchclock, no ghost runner.

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Speaker 4: Like I said, I'd still like to see some of

387
00:19:11,678 --> 00:19:13,918
Speaker 4: these new rules pulled back, the three batter minimum, those

388
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Speaker 4: kind of things.

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Speaker 3: They don't need them.

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Speaker 4: With the pitchclock, which is the superstar of all alterations

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00:19:19,638 --> 00:19:23,358
Speaker 4: made in almost any sport when it comes to rules

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Speaker 4: over the last several years, that's the superstar. That's where

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Speaker 4: the and you use the word pace. The fact that

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Speaker 4: happening happening, things are happening constantly. That is the superstar

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Speaker 4: of all changes, whether it's basketball, football, baseball, whatever.

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Speaker 3: So I love that part about it.

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Speaker 4: But you said, and that's great, and I would want

398
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Speaker 4: I would hope that's the reason why people may be

399
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Speaker 4: reattracted to the game would be because God, they played

400
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Speaker 4: We saw a baseball game. They played baseball. They played baseball, well,

401
00:19:53,958 --> 00:19:56,918
Speaker 4: the whole game, the full game was on display right there,

402
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Speaker 4: and that is wonderful. Now, the thing is, and I'm

403
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Speaker 4: watching the Blue Jays and I'm watching what they may lose,

404
00:20:02,598 --> 00:20:04,518
Speaker 4: and you saw everything went right for than this year.

405
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Speaker 4: It's gonna be hard for them to repeat that next.

406
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Speaker 4: I know, I hear all these different things about with

407
00:20:08,838 --> 00:20:10,078
Speaker 4: favors and all this kind of.

408
00:20:10,078 --> 00:20:12,278
Speaker 3: Stuff, but a lot of things broke well for them too.

409
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Speaker 4: So I'm curious to see based on whatever I don't

410
00:20:16,198 --> 00:20:17,998
Speaker 4: even know what they're from minor leagues look like. But

411
00:20:18,398 --> 00:20:21,558
Speaker 4: it's gonna be hard for them to replicate that last point.

412
00:20:21,878 --> 00:20:25,078
Speaker 4: Money equals power and power equals money. The fact that

413
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Speaker 4: these these top teams are home run hitters because they

414
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Speaker 4: got money, they could you know, they could. They could

415
00:20:29,158 --> 00:20:34,118
Speaker 4: attract and and and keep and and acquire people that

416
00:20:34,198 --> 00:20:37,158
Speaker 4: have power, whether it's pitching power or power at the plate,

417
00:20:37,558 --> 00:20:39,238
Speaker 4: and it and it goes both ways. And if you

418
00:20:39,278 --> 00:20:42,278
Speaker 4: have the power, that's gonna eventually create more money because

419
00:20:42,278 --> 00:20:45,038
Speaker 4: you're gonna be successful and all of a sudden you're

420
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Speaker 4: the World Series champs. So that's never gonna change. That's

421
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Speaker 4: that's probably the same everywhere we go. That money equals

422
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Speaker 4: power and power equals money, and that's what we're seeing.

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Speaker 3: But but in the meantime.

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Speaker 4: If everybody's not capable, like we've talked about this, are

425
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Speaker 4: able to spend that kind of dough for all those

426
00:21:01,558 --> 00:21:03,478
Speaker 4: different bills and whistles that you want or need to

427
00:21:04,078 --> 00:21:06,358
Speaker 4: win a World Series, that's where, like you just said,

428
00:21:06,718 --> 00:21:10,318
Speaker 4: they played baseball great, the Blue Jays did, and that's

429
00:21:10,598 --> 00:21:12,638
Speaker 4: to me, that's what you got to do. If in fact,

430
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Speaker 4: you're not one of the power brokers with all that

431
00:21:14,918 --> 00:21:19,118
Speaker 4: do and you can't attract the different pictures from the

432
00:21:19,198 --> 00:21:22,958
Speaker 4: Japanese pitchers, and you can't attract O Twani, and you

433
00:21:23,158 --> 00:21:26,238
Speaker 4: can't keep Freddie Freeman and Bets on the same team

434
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Speaker 4: for a period of time.

435
00:21:27,158 --> 00:21:28,518
Speaker 3: If you can't do that. You got to look for

436
00:21:28,558 --> 00:21:29,518
Speaker 3: an alternative method.

437
00:21:29,838 --> 00:21:32,158
Speaker 1: Yeah, and don't be surprised if Kyle Tucker winds up

438
00:21:32,158 --> 00:21:35,358
Speaker 1: with the Los Angeles Dodgers. To your point, Yeah, they

439
00:21:35,358 --> 00:21:38,598
Speaker 1: can actually sign him without adding to their payroll. He's

440
00:21:38,638 --> 00:21:41,038
Speaker 1: probably a forty million dollars a year plus player and

441
00:21:41,078 --> 00:21:43,278
Speaker 1: they have that much coming off the payroll. And he

442
00:21:43,358 --> 00:21:45,438
Speaker 1: looked at their outfield in Game seven of the World

443
00:21:45,478 --> 00:21:48,838
Speaker 1: Series with Kei y Hernandez, Tommy Edmund and Taoscar Hernandez.

444
00:21:49,118 --> 00:21:51,678
Speaker 1: They actually do need another bat. And it wouldn't shock

445
00:21:51,758 --> 00:21:53,438
Speaker 1: me if Kyle Tucker. I don't know why he wouldn't

446
00:21:53,478 --> 00:21:55,478
Speaker 1: go there. We're gonna pay him. He's in a great lineup.

447
00:21:55,518 --> 00:21:57,478
Speaker 1: He doesn't have to be the guy to be the

448
00:21:57,478 --> 00:22:02,558
Speaker 1: fulcrum of attention and responsibility. That's a matchup I think

449
00:22:02,878 --> 00:22:06,198
Speaker 1: probably will happened. We're going to take a break, Joe.

450
00:22:06,318 --> 00:22:08,518
Speaker 1: I can't wait to get your thought on another trend

451
00:22:08,558 --> 00:22:10,838
Speaker 1: that's happening in baseball when it comes to managing, it

452
00:22:10,838 --> 00:22:12,358
Speaker 1: seems like no.

453
00:22:12,438 --> 00:22:28,598
Speaker 2: Experience is necessary. Talked about that right after this. Welcome

454
00:22:28,638 --> 00:22:29,638
Speaker 2: back to the Book of Joe.

455
00:22:29,878 --> 00:22:32,638
Speaker 1: I'm sure you saw Joe that San Diego Padres have

456
00:22:32,758 --> 00:22:37,078
Speaker 1: a fourth new manager in the last six years, and

457
00:22:37,118 --> 00:22:39,558
Speaker 1: it's Craig Stamon, a guy who's a middle reliever as

458
00:22:39,598 --> 00:22:43,198
Speaker 1: a player. Now, he's been an advisor to gm AJ

459
00:22:43,318 --> 00:22:45,558
Speaker 1: Preller in San Diego for a while. He knows everybody

460
00:22:45,558 --> 00:22:48,478
Speaker 1: in that clubhouse. He knows the systems there really well.

461
00:22:48,518 --> 00:22:51,118
Speaker 1: But he's never coached or managed. So this is a

462
00:22:51,158 --> 00:22:54,358
Speaker 1: middle reliever who's going to manage a team that's expected

463
00:22:54,398 --> 00:22:55,358
Speaker 1: to be a contender.

464
00:22:55,678 --> 00:22:56,678
Speaker 2: It's outside the box.

465
00:22:56,718 --> 00:22:56,878
Speaker 3: Now.

466
00:22:56,878 --> 00:22:59,278
Speaker 2: We saw thirty three year old Blake but Terra.

467
00:22:59,238 --> 00:23:01,878
Speaker 1: Hired by the Washington Nationals, basically came out of the

468
00:23:01,958 --> 00:23:03,358
Speaker 1: Ray's minor league system.

469
00:23:03,518 --> 00:23:05,918
Speaker 2: Kurtz Zuki with the Angels over and over again.

470
00:23:05,918 --> 00:23:11,438
Speaker 1: Now we're seeing players, coaches, advisors, whatever they are elevated

471
00:23:11,478 --> 00:23:14,438
Speaker 1: to the manager's job really quickly. Now, if you want

472
00:23:14,478 --> 00:23:16,638
Speaker 1: a template, it's hard to argue against the guy like

473
00:23:16,638 --> 00:23:20,678
Speaker 1: Steven Vote one year of coaching in the Seattle Mariners

474
00:23:20,758 --> 00:23:23,558
Speaker 1: bullpen before he became The Guardian's manager.

475
00:23:23,638 --> 00:23:24,838
Speaker 2: He's done a terrific job.

476
00:23:25,638 --> 00:23:27,198
Speaker 1: You know, he was just one of those guys I

477
00:23:27,238 --> 00:23:29,558
Speaker 1: thought you looked at right away, even when he was playing.

478
00:23:29,598 --> 00:23:31,478
Speaker 2: You said that dude's going to be a manager.

479
00:23:32,478 --> 00:23:35,318
Speaker 1: So I want to get your take, Joe, because for me,

480
00:23:36,158 --> 00:23:38,638
Speaker 1: we talked about Tony Vatelo being hired out of Tennessee.

481
00:23:39,038 --> 00:23:43,198
Speaker 1: I'm not against this as just a blanket position, like, oh,

482
00:23:43,318 --> 00:23:44,838
Speaker 1: you've got to earn your way up, you got to

483
00:23:44,838 --> 00:23:48,518
Speaker 1: pay your dues. I think there's, as you know, Joe

484
00:23:48,518 --> 00:23:52,078
Speaker 1: better than anybody, there's so much information and there's so

485
00:23:52,238 --> 00:23:56,438
Speaker 1: many hands in the kitchen helping prepare the meal that

486
00:23:56,998 --> 00:24:01,238
Speaker 1: running the show yourself doesn't happen. So there's all kinds

487
00:24:01,238 --> 00:24:07,278
Speaker 1: of now run prevention and run production, peeple assistant coaches, strategists.

488
00:24:06,958 --> 00:24:07,638
Speaker 2: You name it.

489
00:24:07,718 --> 00:24:10,558
Speaker 1: There's all kinds of different titles now that I think

490
00:24:10,598 --> 00:24:14,318
Speaker 1: the number one quality now for a manager is leadership.

491
00:24:14,798 --> 00:24:17,078
Speaker 2: It's an old school word, I get it.

492
00:24:17,238 --> 00:24:19,678
Speaker 1: But Craig Stammon is a guy who knows everybody in

493
00:24:19,678 --> 00:24:22,398
Speaker 1: that clubhouse and they do have respect for him, so

494
00:24:22,478 --> 00:24:26,158
Speaker 1: he does start with that. So I'm not ruling out

495
00:24:26,198 --> 00:24:28,678
Speaker 1: these guys without experience. I'm not one to say, well,

496
00:24:28,718 --> 00:24:31,038
Speaker 1: what about all those guys managing TRIPAA for the last

497
00:24:31,078 --> 00:24:32,838
Speaker 1: ten years and they're not getting their shot.

498
00:24:33,278 --> 00:24:34,598
Speaker 2: I feel for them, believe me.

499
00:24:35,398 --> 00:24:38,878
Speaker 1: But if you're a leader and you show that I

500
00:24:38,998 --> 00:24:41,358
Speaker 1: don't have a problem with some of these hires just

501
00:24:41,398 --> 00:24:43,118
Speaker 1: on the fact that they don't have experience.

502
00:24:44,078 --> 00:24:47,638
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, as you're going through all that, and you're

503
00:24:48,078 --> 00:24:52,438
Speaker 4: right on the money as usual, I'm jotting down certain

504
00:24:53,278 --> 00:24:56,718
Speaker 4: qualities in life. I think through the years have become

505
00:24:57,118 --> 00:25:00,158
Speaker 4: kind of archaic. I think experience is almost arriving at

506
00:25:00,158 --> 00:25:03,198
Speaker 4: the archaic point. I think wisdom has been downgraded, and

507
00:25:03,238 --> 00:25:06,918
Speaker 4: I think Field there's probably the one that really has

508
00:25:06,958 --> 00:25:09,718
Speaker 4: been kicked off the side of the boat already. These

509
00:25:09,758 --> 00:25:12,158
Speaker 4: things have become archaic meeting they're not necessary, and I

510
00:25:12,158 --> 00:25:16,038
Speaker 4: think the more we rely on math, where I a

511
00:25:16,038 --> 00:25:21,158
Speaker 4: AI is taking over, that really renders a lot of

512
00:25:21,198 --> 00:25:26,238
Speaker 4: these human qualities as being useless, not necessary, as maybe

513
00:25:26,278 --> 00:25:28,838
Speaker 4: not necessarily useless, because like I said, I think in

514
00:25:28,838 --> 00:25:33,038
Speaker 4: this World series, you saw where David and John had

515
00:25:33,078 --> 00:25:36,758
Speaker 4: to really push themselves to like really rely on their o,

516
00:25:36,758 --> 00:25:39,838
Speaker 4: their history, their their baseball experience. They get through different moments,

517
00:25:40,198 --> 00:25:44,838
Speaker 4: but overall, I think the way the world is trending,

518
00:25:44,878 --> 00:25:47,398
Speaker 4: and not just baseball, these are kind of qualities that

519
00:25:47,438 --> 00:25:49,638
Speaker 4: nobody's looking for anymore, and they don't really want them.

520
00:25:49,678 --> 00:25:52,198
Speaker 4: You're talking about vote Voter. I'll tell you this for sure.

521
00:25:52,718 --> 00:25:54,758
Speaker 4: I had Steven. I had Voter when he started out,

522
00:25:54,758 --> 00:25:56,598
Speaker 4: when Voter was just a minor league player.

523
00:25:56,918 --> 00:25:57,398
Speaker 3: And.

524
00:25:58,678 --> 00:26:00,838
Speaker 4: He was really in the meetings of this guy's an

525
00:26:00,878 --> 00:26:03,478
Speaker 4: a ball guy. Tops he can hit a little bit,

526
00:26:03,478 --> 00:26:05,758
Speaker 4: he can't. I mean, I'm telling you all this because

527
00:26:06,078 --> 00:26:07,358
Speaker 4: I didn't know this, because this was what I was

528
00:26:07,398 --> 00:26:10,598
Speaker 4: being told. But whenever we needed somebody to come over

529
00:26:10,638 --> 00:26:12,918
Speaker 4: to the big league team to fill a spot during

530
00:26:12,918 --> 00:26:15,238
Speaker 4: the spring training game, we would ask for Voter. Voter

531
00:26:15,318 --> 00:26:17,478
Speaker 4: would come over, put him out in front of everybody.

532
00:26:17,878 --> 00:26:20,638
Speaker 4: He'd tell a joker to and he had this really

533
00:26:20,838 --> 00:26:24,438
Speaker 4: ingratiating personality. So it's really obvious from the beginning. Yeah,

534
00:26:24,478 --> 00:26:28,558
Speaker 4: he could lead based on his personality, great listener, and

535
00:26:28,838 --> 00:26:33,558
Speaker 4: tremendous sense of humor. Different cat leadership today, I don't

536
00:26:33,558 --> 00:26:36,558
Speaker 4: even know. Again, we've talked about this. What is leadership

537
00:26:36,598 --> 00:26:38,238
Speaker 4: today and what does that mean? I think a lot

538
00:26:38,278 --> 00:26:41,198
Speaker 4: of it has to do with pr and media ability.

539
00:26:41,518 --> 00:26:44,438
Speaker 4: Guys that really speak well could handle themselves front of

540
00:26:44,438 --> 00:26:48,518
Speaker 4: a microphone and a group. I think that is where

541
00:26:48,518 --> 00:26:52,118
Speaker 4: we're terming his leadership anymore. That's become really popular. I mean,

542
00:26:52,198 --> 00:26:55,438
Speaker 4: think about the old guard of managers, and even like

543
00:26:55,478 --> 00:26:58,158
Speaker 4: you can even go to Belichick. I guess he's a

544
00:26:58,158 --> 00:27:01,198
Speaker 4: great leader, right, but really not a very good communicator publicly,

545
00:27:01,998 --> 00:27:05,838
Speaker 4: Geene Mock. You know, they disdain they hated the microphone there,

546
00:27:05,838 --> 00:27:07,878
Speaker 4: And I could go through a whole bunch of different

547
00:27:07,958 --> 00:27:10,238
Speaker 4: dudes that were considered great managers that didn't like all

548
00:27:10,278 --> 00:27:13,318
Speaker 4: that stuff. But their leadership came from their their knowledge,

549
00:27:13,358 --> 00:27:15,918
Speaker 4: their their experience, their feel for the game, their wisdom.

550
00:27:16,358 --> 00:27:20,078
Speaker 4: That's what was really considered necessary at one point, where

551
00:27:20,078 --> 00:27:23,358
Speaker 4: today it's like void, you don't need this. We have

552
00:27:23,478 --> 00:27:26,438
Speaker 4: artificial intelligence, we have all this math. All we need

553
00:27:26,478 --> 00:27:29,118
Speaker 4: you to do is speak well. And like you're kind

554
00:27:29,118 --> 00:27:31,678
Speaker 4: of suggesting keep this clubhouse in order, and I don't

555
00:27:31,678 --> 00:27:32,958
Speaker 4: even know what that means. I don't know if that's

556
00:27:32,958 --> 00:27:38,278
Speaker 4: acquiescence to what the group wants necessary? Is that necessarily

557
00:27:38,438 --> 00:27:42,118
Speaker 4: going in there and trying to enact what you perceive

558
00:27:42,238 --> 00:27:44,838
Speaker 4: to be teaching these guys the right way to act?

559
00:27:45,278 --> 00:27:46,518
Speaker 4: What does it mean to be a pro and how

560
00:27:46,558 --> 00:27:49,638
Speaker 4: do you remain a pro? Or are you constantly catering

561
00:27:49,638 --> 00:27:52,478
Speaker 4: to their needs? So that's what I don't know. So anyway,

562
00:27:53,318 --> 00:27:55,718
Speaker 4: the endgame, what is the endgame with all this. I'm

563
00:27:55,758 --> 00:27:59,638
Speaker 4: not quite sure, but right now it's not just baseball.

564
00:27:59,678 --> 00:27:59,918
Speaker 3: Man.

565
00:28:00,318 --> 00:28:02,318
Speaker 4: You just elected a mayor in New York City. That's what,

566
00:28:02,478 --> 00:28:06,398
Speaker 4: thirty some years old, and then his right hand person

567
00:28:06,838 --> 00:28:10,318
Speaker 4: she's I think thirty four years old. I mean experience

568
00:28:10,438 --> 00:28:14,878
Speaker 4: in all the years of failure are not important anymore

569
00:28:15,078 --> 00:28:16,438
Speaker 4: in regards to all this stuff.

570
00:28:16,438 --> 00:28:18,798
Speaker 3: And I think social media has a lot to do

571
00:28:18,878 --> 00:28:19,718
Speaker 3: with this. It does.

572
00:28:20,918 --> 00:28:23,478
Speaker 4: I'm not making a determination good or bad, but all

573
00:28:23,518 --> 00:28:25,878
Speaker 4: these things are a part of where we have arrived

574
00:28:25,878 --> 00:28:30,278
Speaker 4: at at this particular moment, and we'll say what's good

575
00:28:30,318 --> 00:28:33,398
Speaker 4: or bad as you'll only know how good they are

576
00:28:33,398 --> 00:28:37,038
Speaker 4: when they're thrust into situations when things go sideways, when

577
00:28:37,078 --> 00:28:40,038
Speaker 4: things go poorly. Right now, this is all honeymoon stuff,

578
00:28:40,478 --> 00:28:41,318
Speaker 4: and so we'll see.

579
00:28:42,158 --> 00:28:42,358
Speaker 3: Yeah.

580
00:28:42,358 --> 00:28:44,798
Speaker 2: A couple to follow up on your points there.

581
00:28:44,918 --> 00:28:47,878
Speaker 1: On leadership, you're right, I think running the clubhouse is

582
00:28:47,878 --> 00:28:52,358
Speaker 1: super important, especially with superstar players. What that means, I'm

583
00:28:52,358 --> 00:28:54,598
Speaker 1: not sure, other than that you better have the confidence

584
00:28:54,638 --> 00:28:57,518
Speaker 1: of that superstar player because if he don't, he can

585
00:28:57,558 --> 00:29:00,358
Speaker 1: poison other players against the manager. The other thing on leadership,

586
00:29:00,398 --> 00:29:03,758
Speaker 1: to me now, Joe is managing up, not just managing

587
00:29:03,998 --> 00:29:07,598
Speaker 1: superstar players, but managing up to the front office. That's

588
00:29:07,638 --> 00:29:11,158
Speaker 1: a skill set that has probably job number one Stammond's

589
00:29:11,158 --> 00:29:13,798
Speaker 1: got that He's worked with Aj Pereller, worked with ownership,

590
00:29:13,918 --> 00:29:17,478
Speaker 1: been in all those meetings. Very comfortable for them to

591
00:29:17,918 --> 00:29:20,678
Speaker 1: hire someone who already knows the systems and knows them

592
00:29:21,198 --> 00:29:24,918
Speaker 1: on the upper management level. That's super important experience. You're

593
00:29:24,918 --> 00:29:27,718
Speaker 1: absolutely right, Joe. I always tell people all the time,

594
00:29:27,878 --> 00:29:30,318
Speaker 1: is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.

595
00:29:30,838 --> 00:29:31,038
Speaker 2: Right.

596
00:29:31,318 --> 00:29:33,678
Speaker 1: The knowledge you can get on Wikipedia, you can get

597
00:29:33,678 --> 00:29:36,638
Speaker 1: on AI. Wisdom you can get only with the passage

598
00:29:36,638 --> 00:29:40,398
Speaker 1: of time and being put in certain situations, especially uncomfortable ones,

599
00:29:40,878 --> 00:29:43,758
Speaker 1: where you come out the other side with something you

600
00:29:43,838 --> 00:29:46,718
Speaker 1: never had before. And you're right. We saw that in

601
00:29:46,718 --> 00:29:49,398
Speaker 1: the World Series. Both John Snyder and Dave Roberts I

602
00:29:49,438 --> 00:29:52,078
Speaker 1: thought were great, and John was very honest and telling

603
00:29:52,118 --> 00:29:54,278
Speaker 1: me that he wasn't that way when he first started out.

604
00:29:54,318 --> 00:29:56,718
Speaker 1: He was trying to manage to please other people, and

605
00:29:56,758 --> 00:29:58,958
Speaker 1: he realized, I have to be myself, and he was

606
00:29:58,998 --> 00:30:01,958
Speaker 1: the best manager he's ever been this year because he

607
00:30:01,998 --> 00:30:04,278
Speaker 1: was honest with himself about doing it his way.

608
00:30:05,038 --> 00:30:06,158
Speaker 2: That's why I like it.

609
00:30:06,278 --> 00:30:10,198
Speaker 1: For instance, what Washington has done with Utera there at

610
00:30:10,198 --> 00:30:12,598
Speaker 1: thirty three years old. His bench coach has got named

611
00:30:12,598 --> 00:30:15,358
Speaker 1: Michael John's. He's fifty years old. He's had more than

612
00:30:15,438 --> 00:30:17,958
Speaker 1: two decades in baseball. He's a minor league manager for

613
00:30:18,078 --> 00:30:22,078
Speaker 1: nine years. Is that the major leagues? No, But dude's

614
00:30:22,078 --> 00:30:25,118
Speaker 1: a baseball lifer in his fifties who's been there, done that.

615
00:30:25,638 --> 00:30:28,118
Speaker 1: So I like the idea, if you're going to hire

616
00:30:28,238 --> 00:30:31,758
Speaker 1: these guys without experience, make sure you've got a right

617
00:30:31,798 --> 00:30:35,398
Speaker 1: hand man, woman, whoever next to him in the dugout,

618
00:30:36,078 --> 00:30:40,478
Speaker 1: who has been there, done that. So I don't discount

619
00:30:40,798 --> 00:30:44,438
Speaker 1: experience and wisdom when it comes to hiring that manager,

620
00:30:45,198 --> 00:30:48,598
Speaker 1: but you know, I need to have it in my staff.

621
00:30:49,198 --> 00:30:52,278
Speaker 1: I can't just go all you know, first timers out

622
00:30:52,278 --> 00:30:54,958
Speaker 1: there running things and living with their mistakes.

623
00:30:55,398 --> 00:31:00,038
Speaker 4: First of all, Michael Johnson hit a two iron, he

624
00:31:00,118 --> 00:31:01,438
Speaker 4: crashes it off the tee.

625
00:31:01,478 --> 00:31:02,998
Speaker 3: I know him, I play golf with him.

626
00:31:03,038 --> 00:31:07,918
Speaker 4: He's good, very strong guy. Obviously, I guess the same

627
00:31:07,958 --> 00:31:11,478
Speaker 4: page is always good. I mean meaning that hiring proller,

628
00:31:11,598 --> 00:31:14,198
Speaker 4: hiring somebody that he's comfortable with, that's that's obviously a

629
00:31:14,198 --> 00:31:16,638
Speaker 4: good thing, or a shared philosophy that's a good thing,

630
00:31:17,118 --> 00:31:20,598
Speaker 4: but I always I always want a contrarian or two around.

631
00:31:20,638 --> 00:31:22,918
Speaker 4: Perfect example, when I was with the Angels and I

632
00:31:22,958 --> 00:31:25,598
Speaker 4: got there, and when Sosh took over, he brought in

633
00:31:25,758 --> 00:31:28,798
Speaker 4: a lot of his former teammates, including ron Rennicky, who

634
00:31:28,838 --> 00:31:31,958
Speaker 4: became a very good major league manager. Raggs was a

635
00:31:31,998 --> 00:31:34,718
Speaker 4: contrarian and in all the best possible ways, only because

636
00:31:34,718 --> 00:31:39,118
Speaker 4: he's a brilliant baseball mind, and he would challenge you constantly,

637
00:31:39,198 --> 00:31:40,318
Speaker 4: or challenge anybody.

638
00:31:40,558 --> 00:31:43,758
Speaker 3: Our meetings were raucous. I'm telling you me.

639
00:31:43,958 --> 00:31:51,598
Speaker 4: Buddy Black Pepe, Mickey Hatcher, Primo, Alfredo Rags, that's Ronnie Rennicky,

640
00:31:51,718 --> 00:31:55,078
Speaker 4: and of course Sosia himself. My god, I mean, be prepared.

641
00:31:55,598 --> 00:31:57,598
Speaker 4: It's it's like sitting at the dinner table with Uncle

642
00:31:57,678 --> 00:31:59,398
Speaker 4: Rick back in the day. My uncle Rick was a

643
00:31:59,438 --> 00:32:02,518
Speaker 4: doctor and he would challenge everybody sitting at that dinner

644
00:32:02,558 --> 00:32:05,798
Speaker 4: table every night, and you better be prepared to defend

645
00:32:05,798 --> 00:32:08,758
Speaker 4: your position. Or having Bob Elucid at that of the table,

646
00:32:08,798 --> 00:32:10,758
Speaker 4: Bob clear, that's what you need.

647
00:32:10,798 --> 00:32:11,918
Speaker 3: See I don't see that enough.

648
00:32:12,678 --> 00:32:15,278
Speaker 4: I mean, I know that's not it's true, because you know,

649
00:32:15,358 --> 00:32:17,038
Speaker 4: my last couple of years, even with the Cubs, and

650
00:32:17,038 --> 00:32:20,998
Speaker 4: then with the Angels, that contrarian opinion is not there.

651
00:32:21,478 --> 00:32:25,318
Speaker 4: It's always everybody's acquiescent. Everybody's always in agreement. And if

652
00:32:25,358 --> 00:32:29,558
Speaker 4: you are a contrary in a belief system, that only

653
00:32:29,558 --> 00:32:32,038
Speaker 4: occurs at the water cooler. In other words, if I

654
00:32:32,678 --> 00:32:35,558
Speaker 4: disagree with whomever and you're in the same room there

655
00:32:35,558 --> 00:32:39,318
Speaker 4: and any other questions, any other comments, nobody says.

656
00:32:39,118 --> 00:32:40,158
Speaker 3: Anything, you walk out.

657
00:32:40,358 --> 00:32:44,518
Speaker 4: Then immediately I find tommy Erducci and I say, listen,

658
00:32:44,518 --> 00:32:46,918
Speaker 4: I don't agree with this at all, but it's the

659
00:32:47,078 --> 00:32:50,358
Speaker 4: water cooler moment. Whereas it should have been said in

660
00:32:50,438 --> 00:32:53,918
Speaker 4: the room. I want a room that says it right here,

661
00:32:54,198 --> 00:32:57,158
Speaker 4: right now. Tell me straight up, you do with respect.

662
00:32:57,198 --> 00:32:58,718
Speaker 4: You don't call anybody an idiot. I mean, you know,

663
00:32:58,918 --> 00:33:02,398
Speaker 4: you know it's not pugilistic, but it has to be

664
00:33:02,558 --> 00:33:06,878
Speaker 4: like verbally pugilistic. It's an argument on thoughts and ideas

665
00:33:06,918 --> 00:33:10,638
Speaker 4: and beliefs. It's necessary to be great. And I don't

666
00:33:10,638 --> 00:33:13,798
Speaker 4: think a lot of these places get that because everybody's afraid.

667
00:33:14,118 --> 00:33:15,558
Speaker 4: And I would, really, I mean, that would be like

668
00:33:15,598 --> 00:33:17,478
Speaker 4: the first thing I did when he Stephen run the

669
00:33:17,518 --> 00:33:19,198
Speaker 4: minor leagues for the angel in the eighties, and I

670
00:33:19,238 --> 00:33:22,238
Speaker 4: have like Johnnie McNamara sitting out there, and Bobby Gritch

671
00:33:22,318 --> 00:33:25,598
Speaker 4: sitting out there, and Dave Garcia sitting out there, all

672
00:33:25,598 --> 00:33:27,638
Speaker 4: these former major league guys, and I'm like, I don't know,

673
00:33:27,678 --> 00:33:29,518
Speaker 4: thirty years old, I'm at the age of these guys,

674
00:33:29,758 --> 00:33:31,638
Speaker 4: and I'm running the minor league system, and I'm putting

675
00:33:31,638 --> 00:33:34,518
Speaker 4: my stuff out there, and I got to be able

676
00:33:34,558 --> 00:33:36,398
Speaker 4: to defend what I'm saying in front of these dudes,

677
00:33:36,598 --> 00:33:39,038
Speaker 4: because these guys are definitely not going to tell you

678
00:33:39,118 --> 00:33:41,678
Speaker 4: what you want to hear. So that's the part that

679
00:33:42,238 --> 00:33:44,238
Speaker 4: I don't know that's paid enough attention to. I don't

680
00:33:44,238 --> 00:33:48,878
Speaker 4: think it's valued anymore because everybody wants acquiescence. Nobody wants

681
00:33:48,918 --> 00:33:52,638
Speaker 4: the real important contrarian just to stir it up a bit,

682
00:33:52,958 --> 00:33:55,798
Speaker 4: to make sure that we're not missing anything and that

683
00:33:55,878 --> 00:33:57,878
Speaker 4: we're not just permitting the power to go into this

684
00:33:57,918 --> 00:34:01,518
Speaker 4: one area. Listen, just because you're the head guy doesn't

685
00:34:01,518 --> 00:34:02,678
Speaker 4: mean you're really good at what you do.

686
00:34:02,838 --> 00:34:05,558
Speaker 2: Trust me so well said, I'm glad you brought that up.

687
00:34:05,598 --> 00:34:06,758
Speaker 2: It made me think of two things.

688
00:34:06,838 --> 00:34:09,278
Speaker 1: Number One, Ragga's got himself another ring, and I'm sure

689
00:34:09,278 --> 00:34:11,398
Speaker 1: he's doing the same thing with the Dodgers. Yeah, you know,

690
00:34:12,118 --> 00:34:14,798
Speaker 1: he's not a guy who's gonna, you know, own the room,

691
00:34:14,878 --> 00:34:17,838
Speaker 1: but he's gonna speak up if he sees something. And

692
00:34:18,478 --> 00:34:21,358
Speaker 1: I think his wisdom means a lot to the LA Dodgers.

693
00:34:21,838 --> 00:34:24,638
Speaker 1: And then you made me think of Zim with Joe Tory.

694
00:34:24,838 --> 00:34:27,078
Speaker 1: Was there any better combination than that? And Zim would

695
00:34:27,118 --> 00:34:28,838
Speaker 1: always bring up things in the course of a game

696
00:34:28,838 --> 00:34:30,838
Speaker 1: that hey, you think about starting the runner here, Hey

697
00:34:30,878 --> 00:34:33,438
Speaker 1: who you got in the bullpen coming up next? And

698
00:34:33,478 --> 00:34:35,918
Speaker 1: sometimes Joe would say, no, this is what I'm doing.

699
00:34:36,278 --> 00:34:38,958
Speaker 1: But he made Joe Tory think outside the box and

700
00:34:38,998 --> 00:34:41,198
Speaker 1: maybe think of things that maybe didn't come to his mind.

701
00:34:41,198 --> 00:34:43,998
Speaker 1: And they had such a great relationship that you can

702
00:34:44,038 --> 00:34:47,238
Speaker 1: be a contrarian without any kind of cost of personal cost,

703
00:34:47,438 --> 00:34:49,718
Speaker 1: like I can't believe this guy's going against me, Like

704
00:34:49,758 --> 00:34:52,718
Speaker 1: it's it's something that I guess some guys don't want.

705
00:34:52,798 --> 00:34:54,118
Speaker 2: But that's a.

706
00:34:54,078 --> 00:34:57,678
Speaker 1: Healthy relationship and a working relationship and a dugout Joe. Finally,

707
00:34:57,758 --> 00:34:59,798
Speaker 1: let's get to this is Awards week, by the way,

708
00:34:59,838 --> 00:35:02,478
Speaker 1: and the big one's coming up Thursday, the American League MVP.

709
00:35:03,118 --> 00:35:05,798
Speaker 1: I want to know who you between Cal Rawley and

710
00:35:05,838 --> 00:35:09,518
Speaker 1: Aaron Judge, because I've been all over Judge as the MVP,

711
00:35:09,798 --> 00:35:13,358
Speaker 1: because when you break down the actual numbers, they're actually

712
00:35:13,358 --> 00:35:16,958
Speaker 1: not that close. I know that that Cal had more

713
00:35:16,958 --> 00:35:19,038
Speaker 1: home runs and more RBIs, I get that, folks, But

714
00:35:19,358 --> 00:35:21,278
Speaker 1: when you look at everything across the board, we never

715
00:35:21,318 --> 00:35:23,798
Speaker 1: had a hitter who won the batting title and he

716
00:35:23,838 --> 00:35:25,678
Speaker 1: wanted to buy a lot. By the way, he was

717
00:35:26,318 --> 00:35:28,518
Speaker 1: what more than twenty points ahead of everybody else in

718
00:35:28,558 --> 00:35:31,278
Speaker 1: baseball with batting average, who also had fifty three home runs,

719
00:35:31,278 --> 00:35:33,558
Speaker 1: the most home runs ever buy a batting champion. So

720
00:35:34,158 --> 00:35:36,838
Speaker 1: but then I watched Cal in the postseason man and

721
00:35:37,078 --> 00:35:40,398
Speaker 1: actually watching him play every day for the Mariners, taking

722
00:35:40,478 --> 00:35:43,238
Speaker 1: foul balls and running mound visits and running the game,

723
00:35:43,318 --> 00:35:45,838
Speaker 1: and you know, he caught more innings than anybody in

724
00:35:45,838 --> 00:35:47,078
Speaker 1: the American League this year.

725
00:35:48,398 --> 00:35:51,158
Speaker 2: I started to truly value what people were talking about.

726
00:35:51,238 --> 00:35:53,318
Speaker 1: Not that I didn't appreciate it, but I a deeper

727
00:35:53,358 --> 00:35:55,838
Speaker 1: appreciation for what he does on a daily basis.

728
00:35:56,518 --> 00:35:57,878
Speaker 2: It's a great debate.

729
00:35:57,998 --> 00:36:01,198
Speaker 1: It's going to continue once the announcement is made Thursday night.

730
00:36:01,758 --> 00:36:04,238
Speaker 1: I think Aaron Judge is going to win. I'm not

731
00:36:04,278 --> 00:36:06,918
Speaker 1: sure of that, but I think the voters are going

732
00:36:06,958 --> 00:36:09,118
Speaker 1: to go with the guy with the better numbers across

733
00:36:09,158 --> 00:36:12,038
Speaker 1: the board. Give me your take, Joe on who you

734
00:36:12,078 --> 00:36:13,998
Speaker 1: got Aaron Judge cal Raley.

735
00:36:14,278 --> 00:36:18,318
Speaker 4: Yeah, and first of all, the voting's done before the postseason, correct,

736
00:36:18,398 --> 00:36:21,038
Speaker 4: That's all right, But I brought that up. Yeah, what

737
00:36:21,078 --> 00:36:21,878
Speaker 4: are we voting on?

738
00:36:21,998 --> 00:36:23,358
Speaker 3: What is? What are we voting on?

739
00:36:23,398 --> 00:36:27,678
Speaker 4: The best numbers, the most impactful guy for the team

740
00:36:27,758 --> 00:36:29,598
Speaker 4: during the course of the season, the.

741
00:36:29,998 --> 00:36:33,358
Speaker 3: Most complete game. What are you voting for?

742
00:36:33,638 --> 00:36:36,998
Speaker 4: If it's just based on numbers, You're probably right. I

743
00:36:37,038 --> 00:36:41,878
Speaker 4: think overarching Judge woulout do rally in some ways with that. Obviously,

744
00:36:41,918 --> 00:36:44,998
Speaker 4: the on base and everything else was ridiculous. And again,

745
00:36:45,038 --> 00:36:47,678
Speaker 4: but then again take just take out the intentional walk

746
00:36:47,758 --> 00:36:50,278
Speaker 4: sometimes I would be curious. I don't even know what

747
00:36:50,318 --> 00:36:51,958
Speaker 4: that does with the numbers overall.

748
00:36:51,958 --> 00:36:53,518
Speaker 3: But I just just but.

749
00:36:53,478 --> 00:36:57,398
Speaker 4: I'm sure Raley received his royal treatments on occasion too.

750
00:36:57,838 --> 00:36:59,518
Speaker 3: But I don't know if I'm biased.

751
00:36:59,558 --> 00:37:03,438
Speaker 4: I think I am, having played the position and to

752
00:37:03,518 --> 00:37:07,838
Speaker 4: do what Rawley did offensively and those numbers that he

753
00:37:07,878 --> 00:37:10,798
Speaker 4: put up there offensively and squat back there all year

754
00:37:10,878 --> 00:37:13,478
Speaker 4: like he did, and all the work that he did.

755
00:37:13,318 --> 00:37:13,998
Speaker 3: Before the game.

756
00:37:14,038 --> 00:37:17,438
Speaker 4: The way he split his time, and the depth with

757
00:37:17,478 --> 00:37:20,118
Speaker 4: which this team went into the postseason, and again I

758
00:37:20,158 --> 00:37:23,078
Speaker 4: know postseason doesn't count, but all of those things into consideration.

759
00:37:23,358 --> 00:37:28,998
Speaker 4: As a baseball player, what he did there that's really

760
00:37:29,678 --> 00:37:31,758
Speaker 4: not just unusual, it's never happened. I don't think right

761
00:37:31,918 --> 00:37:34,558
Speaker 4: everything that he had done, and you could almost like

762
00:37:34,838 --> 00:37:37,638
Speaker 4: talk about, you know how we talk about showhy doing

763
00:37:37,678 --> 00:37:41,038
Speaker 4: things that have never been done, and judges numbers are spectacular,

764
00:37:41,838 --> 00:37:43,958
Speaker 4: but I think they've kind of been done, especially from

765
00:37:43,958 --> 00:37:46,078
Speaker 4: an outfield. He's been hurt a little bit, you know,

766
00:37:46,118 --> 00:37:48,558
Speaker 4: he came back slowly partial DH.

767
00:37:49,358 --> 00:37:50,958
Speaker 3: I'm not blaming him for being hurt.

768
00:37:50,758 --> 00:37:55,118
Speaker 4: But I think overall Rawley's performance as a catcher, if

769
00:37:55,118 --> 00:37:58,598
Speaker 4: you've ever played the position, what he did not only

770
00:37:59,038 --> 00:38:02,518
Speaker 4: on gott numerically, but to play every day, to stay healthy,

771
00:38:03,158 --> 00:38:05,878
Speaker 4: to play with the enthusiasm that he does, the importance

772
00:38:05,918 --> 00:38:08,038
Speaker 4: of the game, the amount of work he does before

773
00:38:08,118 --> 00:38:11,398
Speaker 4: the game, the way he impacts it during the game.

774
00:38:12,758 --> 00:38:16,038
Speaker 4: There's no real equation, there's no mathematical equation. I'd never

775
00:38:16,118 --> 00:38:18,798
Speaker 4: learned that one in algebra algebra three trig which I

776
00:38:18,878 --> 00:38:21,958
Speaker 4: was really bad at. So I just think Rawley, if

777
00:38:21,998 --> 00:38:23,678
Speaker 4: you could put it all together, and if you really

778
00:38:23,718 --> 00:38:26,398
Speaker 4: wanted to break it down, I give him a slight

779
00:38:26,478 --> 00:38:27,318
Speaker 4: edge over Judge.

780
00:38:27,638 --> 00:38:30,758
Speaker 1: Yeah, you think about last year, Bobby Witt Junior had

781
00:38:30,798 --> 00:38:33,758
Speaker 1: one of the greatest offensive seasons ever for a shortstop,

782
00:38:34,158 --> 00:38:37,118
Speaker 1: didn't win the MVP. Cal Rawley to me had the

783
00:38:37,118 --> 00:38:40,158
Speaker 1: greatest offensive season ever for a catcher. I'm probably all

784
00:38:40,198 --> 00:38:42,558
Speaker 1: around because he is a premier defender as well, and

785
00:38:42,638 --> 00:38:44,558
Speaker 1: he might not win the MVP. It just goes to

786
00:38:44,598 --> 00:38:48,078
Speaker 1: show you that Aaron Judge is this generation's babe Ruth.

787
00:38:48,438 --> 00:38:50,678
Speaker 1: I mean, he's that far out in front in terms

788
00:38:50,718 --> 00:38:53,758
Speaker 1: of being and I can't even say just the slugger anymore, Joe.

789
00:38:53,758 --> 00:38:57,438
Speaker 1: He's just a great hitter who is head and shoulders

790
00:38:57,478 --> 00:39:01,358
Speaker 1: above really everybody else for this run that he's on

791
00:39:01,678 --> 00:39:03,558
Speaker 1: for these years, not just twenty twenty five.

792
00:39:04,518 --> 00:39:05,878
Speaker 2: I think it's gonna be a close vote.

793
00:39:06,038 --> 00:39:09,038
Speaker 1: As I said, I think, knowing what I know about

794
00:39:09,118 --> 00:39:12,318
Speaker 1: voters and what you just said about numbers across the board,

795
00:39:12,958 --> 00:39:16,158
Speaker 1: if it becomes a math exercise, a Judge is gonna win.

796
00:39:16,598 --> 00:39:17,078
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

797
00:39:17,118 --> 00:39:22,478
Speaker 4: There's I'm appealing to the non mathematical part of anybody's

798
00:39:22,518 --> 00:39:24,998
Speaker 4: brain right now. I'm just learning to on the human

799
00:39:25,118 --> 00:39:27,238
Speaker 4: side a little bit, but the other part, and I

800
00:39:27,278 --> 00:39:29,598
Speaker 4: still believe there's there's the East Coast bias. There's no question,

801
00:39:30,278 --> 00:39:32,398
Speaker 4: not everybody saw Raley do all this stuff all year

802
00:39:32,398 --> 00:39:35,358
Speaker 4: except for videos a lot of time. I mean there's that,

803
00:39:35,518 --> 00:39:38,598
Speaker 4: and I mean Aaron Judge is he's wonderful, what a

804
00:39:38,638 --> 00:39:40,958
Speaker 4: great guy, and so it is Rawleigh. But I actually

805
00:39:40,958 --> 00:39:43,118
Speaker 4: had conversation with Aaron Judge, is.

806
00:39:43,038 --> 00:39:43,558
Speaker 3: All of that.

807
00:39:44,078 --> 00:39:46,598
Speaker 4: He should be the captain, he should be the face

808
00:39:46,638 --> 00:39:49,678
Speaker 4: of the Yankees, he should be almost the face of baseball,

809
00:39:49,718 --> 00:39:52,678
Speaker 4: which he is with show. Hey, I think there's you know, simultaneously,

810
00:39:53,198 --> 00:39:55,798
Speaker 4: if they could do like a two headed poster, you'd

811
00:39:55,798 --> 00:39:57,798
Speaker 4: have both guys back to back.

812
00:39:57,878 --> 00:40:00,918
Speaker 3: Somehow they are and that's he deserves it, He's earned it.

813
00:40:00,918 --> 00:40:02,358
Speaker 3: He is all of that.

814
00:40:03,038 --> 00:40:06,598
Speaker 4: But I mean, I guess my bias is based on

815
00:40:06,638 --> 00:40:08,998
Speaker 4: the fact that I've done some of what Rawley did.

816
00:40:09,038 --> 00:40:12,078
Speaker 4: Listen not trusts me what he did, like I said,

817
00:40:12,078 --> 00:40:16,478
Speaker 4: playing every day to that level at that position and

818
00:40:16,518 --> 00:40:19,158
Speaker 4: then take it over to the offensive side. That's the

819
00:40:19,238 --> 00:40:21,758
Speaker 4: part that to me is the tipping point and why

820
00:40:21,798 --> 00:40:22,918
Speaker 4: I would put him over the top.

821
00:40:23,278 --> 00:40:24,918
Speaker 2: Hey, we're going to take a quick break on the

822
00:40:24,998 --> 00:40:25,638
Speaker 2: Book of Joe.

823
00:40:25,678 --> 00:40:28,558
Speaker 1: When we get back, we need to talk about a

824
00:40:28,598 --> 00:40:33,198
Speaker 1: certain pitcher who was announcing his retirement, and I cannot

825
00:40:33,278 --> 00:40:37,878
Speaker 1: wait to hear how Joe Madden celebrates the end of

826
00:40:37,998 --> 00:40:39,478
Speaker 1: Kyle Hendricks's career.

827
00:40:39,598 --> 00:40:55,598
Speaker 2: We'll do that. Pray happiness, Welcome back to the Book

828
00:40:55,638 --> 00:40:56,238
Speaker 2: of Joe.

829
00:40:56,918 --> 00:41:01,198
Speaker 1: Kyle Hendricks is calling it a career after three hundred

830
00:41:01,198 --> 00:41:04,798
Speaker 1: and one starts on the major league level. One five

831
00:41:04,838 --> 00:41:07,518
Speaker 1: and ninety one is his record. But of course he's

832
00:41:07,558 --> 00:41:10,078
Speaker 1: going to be remembered, as you know, one of the

833
00:41:10,078 --> 00:41:13,238
Speaker 1: most consequential Cubs pitchers of all time.

834
00:41:13,998 --> 00:41:15,238
Speaker 2: And he did it in such.

835
00:41:14,998 --> 00:41:18,718
Speaker 1: A way, you know, with humility and class and a

836
00:41:18,838 --> 00:41:21,518
Speaker 1: master of changing speeds. I'm not sure I've ever seen

837
00:41:21,558 --> 00:41:23,958
Speaker 1: anybody who can do so many things with a change

838
00:41:23,998 --> 00:41:27,238
Speaker 1: up in terms of a guy as a hitter, knowing

839
00:41:27,278 --> 00:41:30,438
Speaker 1: it's coming but not really sure which way it's going

840
00:41:30,478 --> 00:41:31,918
Speaker 1: to break and at what speed.

841
00:41:32,798 --> 00:41:33,478
Speaker 2: It's just a.

842
00:41:33,438 --> 00:41:36,238
Speaker 1: Master at manipulating the baseball and making it do what

843
00:41:36,278 --> 00:41:39,278
Speaker 1: he wants. Here's a note for you, Joe on Kyle

844
00:41:39,318 --> 00:41:43,278
Speaker 1: Hendricks in his last season pitching for the Angels. He's

845
00:41:43,278 --> 00:41:45,598
Speaker 1: from southern California, so some way he was going back home.

846
00:41:45,838 --> 00:41:50,358
Speaker 1: He allowed the lowest exit velocity in baseball. He was

847
00:41:50,398 --> 00:41:54,878
Speaker 1: tied with Hunter Brown and Trek Skubell, two Cy Young

848
00:41:54,878 --> 00:41:59,398
Speaker 1: Award finalists, for the lowest average exit velocity. In other words,

849
00:41:59,478 --> 00:42:03,678
Speaker 1: at the end of his career, Kyle Hendricks was still

850
00:42:04,038 --> 00:42:07,398
Speaker 1: fooling hitters and moving the ball off the barrel of

851
00:42:07,438 --> 00:42:10,198
Speaker 1: the bat. Just an amazing pitcher. And of course, Joe,

852
00:42:10,238 --> 00:42:13,678
Speaker 1: I'm sure like the rest of us, you probably think

853
00:42:13,718 --> 00:42:17,438
Speaker 1: immediately about twenty sixteen and what he did in the

854
00:42:17,478 --> 00:42:20,798
Speaker 1: postseason through eleven innings in the World Series with is

855
00:42:20,878 --> 00:42:24,238
Speaker 1: one earned run at one point four to two eer

856
00:42:24,478 --> 00:42:29,958
Speaker 1: throughout that postseason. So Flora is yours, Joe, Kyle Hendrix,

857
00:42:31,198 --> 00:42:34,398
Speaker 1: knowing that he's his major league career is over, what

858
00:42:34,518 --> 00:42:35,278
Speaker 1: comes to your mind?

859
00:42:35,798 --> 00:42:37,398
Speaker 3: We really laid it up pretty well there.

860
00:42:37,678 --> 00:42:41,118
Speaker 4: First of all, this guy is quality at Dartmouth boy

861
00:42:41,598 --> 00:42:46,558
Speaker 4: Huntingdon Beach. What a great conversation that you talk about,

862
00:42:46,558 --> 00:42:49,358
Speaker 4: the consummate team player. On top of all that, I mean,

863
00:42:50,278 --> 00:42:52,078
Speaker 4: there was times, you know, in the National League game,

864
00:42:52,118 --> 00:42:53,598
Speaker 4: I had to take him out of the game, maybe

865
00:42:53,598 --> 00:42:56,518
Speaker 4: going into the sixth inning, and it's won nothing because

866
00:42:56,518 --> 00:42:58,278
Speaker 4: as that bat came up in a crucial moment.

867
00:42:59,638 --> 00:43:00,638
Speaker 3: Okay, I got it.

868
00:43:00,758 --> 00:43:02,558
Speaker 4: You know, he didn't like it, he never liked it,

869
00:43:02,638 --> 00:43:04,958
Speaker 4: but he was class see about it, and he did

870
00:43:04,998 --> 00:43:07,638
Speaker 4: what he what you're supposed to do in that moment.

871
00:43:07,798 --> 00:43:10,558
Speaker 4: And so first of all, you have to understand this guy.

872
00:43:11,318 --> 00:43:14,678
Speaker 4: The word class I think is thrown around way too easily,

873
00:43:14,718 --> 00:43:17,638
Speaker 4: way too often, and it should be reserved really for

874
00:43:17,718 --> 00:43:21,678
Speaker 4: special people. Kyle's a special person. I love the fact

875
00:43:21,878 --> 00:43:24,398
Speaker 4: that you talk about the ex adilo. That was a

876
00:43:24,438 --> 00:43:27,078
Speaker 4: big part of our twenty sixteen season.

877
00:43:27,638 --> 00:43:30,438
Speaker 3: And that's the part where when you want, if you want.

878
00:43:30,318 --> 00:43:33,318
Speaker 4: Your defense to play big, get pitchers that don't let

879
00:43:33,478 --> 00:43:34,798
Speaker 4: the other team hit the ball hard.

880
00:43:35,518 --> 00:43:37,038
Speaker 3: That's where defense plays big.

881
00:43:37,438 --> 00:43:40,878
Speaker 4: So when you reduce sex of velocities off the other team,

882
00:43:41,238 --> 00:43:44,318
Speaker 4: your shortstop gets greater range, your second basemen, everybody gets

883
00:43:44,318 --> 00:43:45,158
Speaker 4: greater range.

884
00:43:45,278 --> 00:43:47,438
Speaker 3: And that's what he did. I mean, we played our.

885
00:43:47,398 --> 00:43:50,758
Speaker 4: Butts off on defense when this guy pitched. And just

886
00:43:50,838 --> 00:43:53,318
Speaker 4: because we're talking about the ball is never squared up.

887
00:43:53,358 --> 00:43:55,598
Speaker 4: It was hard to square him up. It almost looks

888
00:43:55,638 --> 00:43:58,078
Speaker 4: like a whiffle ball from the side. And I'm going

889
00:43:58,118 --> 00:44:01,078
Speaker 4: to make a prediction right now. I this guy is

890
00:44:01,078 --> 00:44:02,718
Speaker 4: a good golfer, so he's going to go play a

891
00:44:02,718 --> 00:44:05,878
Speaker 4: lot of golf. Good golfer, but he'd be the perfect

892
00:44:06,158 --> 00:44:08,758
Speaker 4: guy for somebody to talk to, like a real contending

893
00:44:08,798 --> 00:44:12,358
Speaker 4: team for next year going into the season, almost like

894
00:44:12,358 --> 00:44:14,398
Speaker 4: what the a Phillies did with Robertson coming back as

895
00:44:14,438 --> 00:44:18,038
Speaker 4: relief pitcher Late, who actually saw him at a tunnel

896
00:44:18,078 --> 00:44:20,598
Speaker 4: the Towers Golf tournament earlier this year before he ends

897
00:44:20,678 --> 00:44:23,198
Speaker 4: up pitching for the a Phillies Late. I think, Kyle,

898
00:44:24,198 --> 00:44:27,158
Speaker 4: if I'm a contending team into next year, maybe the Dodgers,

899
00:44:27,478 --> 00:44:31,278
Speaker 4: I would speak to him now going into this offseason

900
00:44:31,358 --> 00:44:33,518
Speaker 4: at some point, putting that in the back of his

901
00:44:33,678 --> 00:44:36,798
Speaker 4: mind if he would consider doing something like that, because

902
00:44:36,798 --> 00:44:40,598
Speaker 4: that would be the perfect scenario for him, I think,

903
00:44:40,838 --> 00:44:42,478
Speaker 4: and I wouldn't run away from that if he was

904
00:44:42,518 --> 00:44:46,038
Speaker 4: open to it. Kyle Hendrix, I look at the gun

905
00:44:46,638 --> 00:44:49,678
Speaker 4: first inning. Sometimes I'd see eighty four on his fast

906
00:44:49,798 --> 00:44:53,678
Speaker 4: and go okay, because because because it was like when

907
00:44:53,718 --> 00:44:55,518
Speaker 4: it got to be eighty four, there wasn't a big

908
00:44:55,518 --> 00:44:57,758
Speaker 4: difference between that and his change in velocity wise, and

909
00:44:57,758 --> 00:45:01,318
Speaker 4: that would be concerned if I saw eighty six, eighty seven,

910
00:45:01,438 --> 00:45:03,758
Speaker 4: eighty eight, I was really having.

911
00:45:03,558 --> 00:45:04,278
Speaker 3: A nice game.

912
00:45:04,358 --> 00:45:07,278
Speaker 4: This is gonna be nice because there's that discrepancy between

913
00:45:07,278 --> 00:45:11,958
Speaker 4: fastball and change up. The other thing about him, I've

914
00:45:11,998 --> 00:45:15,438
Speaker 4: never seen so many hitters take a called strike against

915
00:45:15,518 --> 00:45:19,518
Speaker 4: the pitcher and like, look the off balance and never

916
00:45:19,638 --> 00:45:22,918
Speaker 4: argue it. I mean that come back two seamer that

917
00:45:22,958 --> 00:45:26,998
Speaker 4: he threw outside edge to righty's that would come back,

918
00:45:27,158 --> 00:45:29,798
Speaker 4: or the inside front hip guide to the to the

919
00:45:29,918 --> 00:45:32,438
Speaker 4: lefties take it. They would just take it like a man,

920
00:45:33,158 --> 00:45:36,438
Speaker 4: never argue. The umpire has got it right. They know

921
00:45:36,518 --> 00:45:38,518
Speaker 4: he's coming and they would still be surprised by it.

922
00:45:40,478 --> 00:45:43,558
Speaker 4: He was just He's just a different cat. Wonderful. Like

923
00:45:43,598 --> 00:45:47,078
Speaker 4: I said, wonderful dude. But if I'm I don't know again,

924
00:45:47,118 --> 00:45:50,278
Speaker 4: the Dodgers or somebody like even maybe the Padres, I

925
00:45:50,318 --> 00:45:52,038
Speaker 4: don't know, somebody in that and particularly in that neck

926
00:45:52,038 --> 00:45:54,598
Speaker 4: of the wood San Francisco. If you think you're going

927
00:45:54,638 --> 00:45:55,798
Speaker 4: to be in it at the end of next year,

928
00:45:56,998 --> 00:45:57,638
Speaker 4: talk to this guy.

929
00:45:57,678 --> 00:45:57,838
Speaker 3: Now.

930
00:45:58,238 --> 00:45:59,398
Speaker 2: That is a great idea.

931
00:45:59,438 --> 00:46:01,158
Speaker 1: I had not thought of that, but he made me

932
00:46:01,238 --> 00:46:03,398
Speaker 1: think of Pedro Martinez in two thousand and nine with

933
00:46:03,438 --> 00:46:05,238
Speaker 1: the Phillies wound up pitching.

934
00:46:05,038 --> 00:46:06,078
Speaker 2: The World Series for him.

935
00:46:06,158 --> 00:46:08,558
Speaker 1: Tell me what you remember, Joe about one of the

936
00:46:08,638 --> 00:46:12,278
Speaker 1: most important games in Cubs history that Kyle pitched, the

937
00:46:12,398 --> 00:46:16,078
Speaker 1: clinching National League Pentic coaching game against the LA Dodgers.

938
00:46:16,158 --> 00:46:19,918
Speaker 1: He took the ball into the eighth inning, allowed two hits,

939
00:46:20,678 --> 00:46:24,518
Speaker 1: no runs, no walks, and six strikeouts.

940
00:46:25,238 --> 00:46:28,598
Speaker 4: As a manager, that was like the most privileged game

941
00:46:28,678 --> 00:46:31,398
Speaker 4: I've I think I've ever been involved in. We played,

942
00:46:32,118 --> 00:46:35,038
Speaker 4: I mean, as close to a perfect baseball game as

943
00:46:35,078 --> 00:46:38,118
Speaker 4: can be played. We did the Cubs and then with him,

944
00:46:38,198 --> 00:46:40,918
Speaker 4: I mean that was against Kershaw, I believe right and

945
00:46:41,598 --> 00:46:44,398
Speaker 4: in he he being Kyle is unflappable.

946
00:46:45,958 --> 00:46:46,918
Speaker 3: He just is.

947
00:46:47,318 --> 00:46:49,238
Speaker 4: I don't care what the moment is, what's going on

948
00:46:49,518 --> 00:46:54,118
Speaker 4: around him. He's always the same dude. So you don't

949
00:46:55,038 --> 00:46:57,718
Speaker 4: you don't even worry about that is there's never going

950
00:46:57,798 --> 00:46:59,478
Speaker 4: to be this moment that gets too quick for him.

951
00:46:59,478 --> 00:47:03,758
Speaker 4: He'll always be able to rein it in. So the

952
00:47:03,958 --> 00:47:06,638
Speaker 4: point about that game for me, was such a big

953
00:47:06,718 --> 00:47:09,838
Speaker 4: game for us in the history of the the Cubbies,

954
00:47:10,478 --> 00:47:11,878
Speaker 4: is that he was he was Kyle.

955
00:47:12,038 --> 00:47:12,598
Speaker 3: He was the same.

956
00:47:12,638 --> 00:47:14,518
Speaker 4: It's no different than that night he had a no

957
00:47:14,638 --> 00:47:17,558
Speaker 4: hitter going in Saint Louis into the ninth inning, where

958
00:47:17,558 --> 00:47:19,958
Speaker 4: I had to get Chapman up real quick and then

959
00:47:19,998 --> 00:47:21,118
Speaker 4: I get kicked out of the game.

960
00:47:20,998 --> 00:47:21,798
Speaker 3: By Joe West.

961
00:47:22,158 --> 00:47:24,598
Speaker 4: I mean when Kyle Hendricks gets on a on a

962
00:47:24,758 --> 00:47:28,318
Speaker 4: run and that thing is working, and you see these

963
00:47:28,358 --> 00:47:31,358
Speaker 4: bat takes by the hitters and just like talking about

964
00:47:31,358 --> 00:47:34,638
Speaker 4: the weak contact because it's effortless. I mean, that's the

965
00:47:34,718 --> 00:47:37,838
Speaker 4: other thing about him with like arm strength and not

966
00:47:37,958 --> 00:47:41,158
Speaker 4: getting injured off and it's an effortless kind of a

967
00:47:41,678 --> 00:47:44,638
Speaker 4: delivery that he has. And he says he's a perfectionist.

968
00:47:45,158 --> 00:47:49,398
Speaker 4: So that to me as a manager in the years

969
00:47:49,438 --> 00:47:51,638
Speaker 4: that I've done, that possibly one of the most perfect

970
00:47:51,678 --> 00:47:52,798
Speaker 4: games that I was involved with.

971
00:47:53,278 --> 00:47:55,638
Speaker 3: Just stay out of the way and let these guys go. Yeah.

972
00:47:55,678 --> 00:47:58,878
Speaker 1: I used to say watching Kyle throw with that he

973
00:47:58,958 --> 00:48:01,638
Speaker 1: had a very unique way of setting his wrist behind

974
00:48:01,758 --> 00:48:04,198
Speaker 1: him throwing a baseball. To me, it looked like guy

975
00:48:04,278 --> 00:48:08,878
Speaker 1: throwing a paper plane, right, Okay, just a lack of effort.

976
00:48:08,958 --> 00:48:12,398
Speaker 1: It seemed like, I know it wasn't, but just was

977
00:48:12,478 --> 00:48:16,278
Speaker 1: a pleasure to watch pitch. How about this Joe in

978
00:48:16,438 --> 00:48:19,278
Speaker 1: that World Series and give theo Epstein a lot of credit.

979
00:48:19,358 --> 00:48:21,918
Speaker 1: And I wrote a lot about this in my book

980
00:48:21,998 --> 00:48:24,918
Speaker 1: The Cub's way where he built this team around drafting

981
00:48:25,358 --> 00:48:28,478
Speaker 1: and developing position players because they set the tone, they

982
00:48:28,638 --> 00:48:32,358
Speaker 1: set the whole culture of a team. They're literally everyday players.

983
00:48:33,118 --> 00:48:36,998
Speaker 1: And he was able to acquire pitching. Joe, you used

984
00:48:37,078 --> 00:48:42,398
Speaker 1: eleven pitchers in the World Series. None of them were homegrown, right,

985
00:48:42,878 --> 00:48:46,958
Speaker 1: including of course Kyle Hendrix was obtained that trade. You know,

986
00:48:47,278 --> 00:48:51,358
Speaker 1: Jake Arietta, John Lackey, John Lester, up and down the line.

987
00:48:51,718 --> 00:48:52,198
Speaker 2: How about that?

988
00:48:52,638 --> 00:48:55,518
Speaker 1: And not a pitch was thrown by a homegrown Cub

989
00:48:55,878 --> 00:48:57,358
Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen World Series.

990
00:48:57,678 --> 00:49:00,078
Speaker 4: Well, that was part of the concern at that point,

991
00:49:00,118 --> 00:49:02,198
Speaker 4: that the Cubs were not nurturing their own pitching.

992
00:49:02,358 --> 00:49:02,678
Speaker 3: That was it.

993
00:49:02,798 --> 00:49:05,318
Speaker 4: But like you said, intentionally, it was all based on

994
00:49:05,558 --> 00:49:07,238
Speaker 4: getting the offensive players.

995
00:49:06,958 --> 00:49:07,358
Speaker 3: In their shore.

996
00:49:07,398 --> 00:49:10,478
Speaker 4: Bra had a pretty good impact, Bias had a great impact.

997
00:49:11,398 --> 00:49:15,438
Speaker 4: KB did, of course, so control us all the homegrown

998
00:49:15,518 --> 00:49:18,198
Speaker 4: age excuse me, Cubs players definitely made an impact, But

999
00:49:18,278 --> 00:49:20,118
Speaker 4: there was a time there. I think it's gotten a

1000
00:49:20,158 --> 00:49:21,798
Speaker 4: little bit better, but there was not a whole lot

1001
00:49:21,838 --> 00:49:26,278
Speaker 4: of homegrown pitching done back there. So he did THEOGA

1002
00:49:26,358 --> 00:49:29,038
Speaker 4: did a nice job of bringing guys in there, a

1003
00:49:29,078 --> 00:49:32,918
Speaker 4: lot of experienced guys too, and putting, you know, right

1004
00:49:32,958 --> 00:49:35,678
Speaker 4: down to the bullpen, getting a rolled this like we did.

1005
00:49:36,198 --> 00:49:39,238
Speaker 4: I think that was for Glibor Taurus going into that

1006
00:49:39,358 --> 00:49:43,318
Speaker 4: World Series. You know, Pedro Strope loved me, Si Pedro

1007
00:49:43,438 --> 00:49:46,718
Speaker 4: stropector run Don and of course Mike Montgomery he even knew,

1008
00:49:46,958 --> 00:49:49,798
Speaker 4: right And who even knew about Carl Edwards Junior. Who

1009
00:49:49,878 --> 00:49:52,238
Speaker 4: knew that these guys would be that impactful.

1010
00:49:52,278 --> 00:49:52,918
Speaker 3: I didn't know that.

1011
00:49:53,078 --> 00:49:55,158
Speaker 4: I mean, these are the kind of guys you find

1012
00:49:55,158 --> 00:49:57,558
Speaker 4: out during the latter part of the year, during September,

1013
00:49:57,878 --> 00:50:00,358
Speaker 4: we were getting this whole thing like kind of I

1014
00:50:00,398 --> 00:50:02,278
Speaker 4: don't want to say wrapped up, but in good shape.

1015
00:50:02,478 --> 00:50:04,198
Speaker 4: These are the guys who were like the most aramend

1016
00:50:04,198 --> 00:50:09,558
Speaker 4: out of the bulletpenper Carl Montgomery and I think the

1017
00:50:09,678 --> 00:50:13,958
Speaker 4: left the left hand or Travis Wood. Yeah, thank you Travis,

1018
00:50:14,358 --> 00:50:17,518
Speaker 4: My god, what a beautiful man. So yeah, it's you

1019
00:50:17,678 --> 00:50:20,598
Speaker 4: just never know, You just never know. But that is

1020
00:50:20,838 --> 00:50:24,518
Speaker 4: like wonderful scouting. And uh, like I said, Jake Carriot,

1021
00:50:24,918 --> 00:50:27,478
Speaker 4: which was better than that. So a great job of

1022
00:50:27,558 --> 00:50:28,598
Speaker 4: putting a piece of it together.

1023
00:50:28,678 --> 00:50:31,478
Speaker 1: Yes, well we've reached the ninth ending of this latest

1024
00:50:31,518 --> 00:50:33,838
Speaker 1: episode of the Book of Joe. You always bring us home,

1025
00:50:33,958 --> 00:50:36,518
Speaker 1: Joe with some words of wisdom. We've been all over

1026
00:50:36,558 --> 00:50:39,078
Speaker 1: the map today. What do you got to finish this

1027
00:50:39,158 --> 00:50:39,598
Speaker 1: off today?

1028
00:50:40,038 --> 00:50:41,838
Speaker 4: I thought I had it, but you made I mean,

1029
00:50:41,878 --> 00:50:45,398
Speaker 4: I've made me shift gears and I got two things.

1030
00:50:45,478 --> 00:50:48,878
Speaker 4: Actually the one I had was by James Baldwin. I

1031
00:50:48,958 --> 00:50:51,758
Speaker 4: read James Baldwin. I was in college, a Native son,

1032
00:50:52,038 --> 00:50:56,558
Speaker 4: and I love and it's about experience. So you know,

1033
00:50:56,838 --> 00:51:00,358
Speaker 4: we're talking about experience, and this is my first thought. Uh,

1034
00:51:01,198 --> 00:51:03,838
Speaker 4: take no one's word for anything, including mine. He wrote,

1035
00:51:03,998 --> 00:51:08,238
Speaker 4: but trust your experience. And wow, I mean that's not

1036
00:51:08,398 --> 00:51:11,158
Speaker 4: even just talked about it. That's not even that's almost

1037
00:51:11,238 --> 00:51:16,478
Speaker 4: becoming archaic. Then in a verbal I heard him talking about,

1038
00:51:16,518 --> 00:51:18,558
Speaker 4: you know, somebody that was trying to put him in

1039
00:51:18,638 --> 00:51:20,878
Speaker 4: a corner. He says, I am not your label. The

1040
00:51:20,998 --> 00:51:22,438
Speaker 4: label belongs to you, not to me.

1041
00:51:23,478 --> 00:51:25,198
Speaker 3: God did I love that? And it's true.

1042
00:51:25,238 --> 00:51:28,438
Speaker 4: I mean, every time, you know, somebody tries to pin

1043
00:51:28,518 --> 00:51:31,358
Speaker 4: a definition on you, just defining yourself. Man, when you

1044
00:51:31,438 --> 00:51:34,478
Speaker 4: start attempting to label somebody else, you're really talking about

1045
00:51:34,558 --> 00:51:36,798
Speaker 4: you and which your worries are, on, which how you

1046
00:51:36,918 --> 00:51:41,638
Speaker 4: define life, et cetera. So that was the James Baldwin

1047
00:51:41,678 --> 00:51:43,358
Speaker 4: side of it. That's what I began with. But then

1048
00:51:43,878 --> 00:51:48,318
Speaker 4: you're talking about the contrarian stuff, talking about Ron Renike's

1049
00:51:48,358 --> 00:51:50,438
Speaker 4: of the world. And I read this in a book

1050
00:51:51,678 --> 00:51:53,198
Speaker 4: not a one hundred percent sure it might have been

1051
00:51:53,198 --> 00:51:56,558
Speaker 4: a Wayne Dyer situation, and I think it was like

1052
00:51:56,718 --> 00:51:59,718
Speaker 4: more like an ancient Chinese proverb or something to that effect,

1053
00:51:59,838 --> 00:52:05,278
Speaker 4: or something in Zen philosophy, but talking about teaching or teachers,

1054
00:52:05,838 --> 00:52:08,358
Speaker 4: and it came down to this point, and I love this.

1055
00:52:09,358 --> 00:52:12,078
Speaker 4: I can't teach you anything, but it could only make

1056
00:52:12,118 --> 00:52:16,358
Speaker 4: you think. That's what a great teacher does. I remember

1057
00:52:16,398 --> 00:52:18,718
Speaker 4: for years Bob Clear Babaloo in our book, The Book

1058
00:52:18,758 --> 00:52:22,038
Speaker 4: of Joe bob Aloo would just piss me off, and

1059
00:52:22,118 --> 00:52:23,718
Speaker 4: then he would say, I'm just trying to get you

1060
00:52:23,838 --> 00:52:27,958
Speaker 4: to think a little bit, you know, And so eventually

1061
00:52:27,998 --> 00:52:30,118
Speaker 4: I read that passage and all we can think about

1062
00:52:30,158 --> 00:52:35,598
Speaker 4: is bob Aloo. So trust your own experience, and if

1063
00:52:35,638 --> 00:52:38,718
Speaker 4: you start trying to label people, realize you're just defining yourself.

1064
00:52:39,438 --> 00:52:43,278
Speaker 3: And lastly, I can't teach you anything, but I can

1065
00:52:43,358 --> 00:52:43,838
Speaker 3: make you think.

1066
00:52:43,918 --> 00:52:45,678
Speaker 4: And I think if you get that person on your

1067
00:52:45,758 --> 00:52:49,198
Speaker 4: staff that is such an invaluable person to have.

1068
00:52:49,438 --> 00:52:52,518
Speaker 2: Oh great stuff. I love that, Joe, especially about labels.

1069
00:52:53,798 --> 00:52:56,158
Speaker 1: I look at labels and boundaries and I think those

1070
00:52:56,238 --> 00:52:59,278
Speaker 1: things are lazy and they're artificial. I have no use

1071
00:52:59,358 --> 00:53:02,278
Speaker 1: for them, and I would never apply it to myself,

1072
00:53:02,478 --> 00:53:04,198
Speaker 1: so why would I apply it to anybody else.

1073
00:53:04,758 --> 00:53:08,118
Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that up. And uh and yeah, contrarians,

1074
00:53:08,678 --> 00:53:09,238
Speaker 2: we need them.

1075
00:53:09,398 --> 00:53:13,838
Speaker 1: Yeah right, And I admire people who don't have to

1076
00:53:13,958 --> 00:53:16,958
Speaker 1: be the smartest person in the room, who know what

1077
00:53:17,158 --> 00:53:20,318
Speaker 1: they don't know, and surround themselves with people who can

1078
00:53:20,358 --> 00:53:20,958
Speaker 1: complete them.

1079
00:53:21,198 --> 00:53:21,558
Speaker 3: Agreed.

1080
00:53:21,638 --> 00:53:25,558
Speaker 4: I mean that's uh yeah, Like I said, Ronnie Rennick

1081
00:53:25,718 --> 00:53:27,998
Speaker 4: is the motivation for that thought for me right now,

1082
00:53:28,558 --> 00:53:29,478
Speaker 4: along with bab Aloo.

1083
00:53:29,598 --> 00:53:31,398
Speaker 3: But I'm telling you, Rags is really sharp.

1084
00:53:31,518 --> 00:53:36,398
Speaker 4: Rags is well read, and he he he is so

1085
00:53:36,638 --> 00:53:39,998
Speaker 4: classic old school because if you do he is, he's

1086
00:53:40,078 --> 00:53:43,478
Speaker 4: right up there with Baba Loo and uh Ronnie Platt

1087
00:53:43,878 --> 00:53:48,238
Speaker 4: and uh Carl Keel and you know, Jimmy le Fever

1088
00:53:48,558 --> 00:53:50,878
Speaker 4: and I could keep going on and on. If you

1089
00:53:50,918 --> 00:53:54,038
Speaker 4: don't want to hear the answer, don't don't let don't

1090
00:53:54,038 --> 00:53:55,838
Speaker 4: ask the question, man, because they're gonna tell.

1091
00:53:55,678 --> 00:53:58,918
Speaker 3: You exactly what they think. They are truth tellers. And

1092
00:53:59,078 --> 00:54:01,918
Speaker 3: God do I love the truth Tellers? Oh, we love it. Joe.

1093
00:54:01,998 --> 00:54:04,398
Speaker 2: Great stuff. We'll see you next time on the Book

1094
00:54:04,398 --> 00:54:04,718
Speaker 2: of Joe.

1095
00:54:05,118 --> 00:54:06,158
Speaker 3: See your brother, Thanks man.

1096
00:54:13,878 --> 00:54:17,078
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1097
00:54:17,318 --> 00:54:22,158
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1098
00:54:22,398 --> 00:54:24,158
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