Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and
Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef and
Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bell Cast. Hey, Jamie,
Speaker 1: Hey Caitlin, you know how we are both in jail
Speaker 1: right now for murdering our lovers classic us. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: here's what I'm thinking when we get exonerated, because we're
Speaker 1: so hot, We're so sexy and peregantinette. Yeah exactly, So
Speaker 1: when we get exonerated, would you like to start a
Speaker 1: podcast together? Oh my god, can you imagine a Villa Mkelly,
Speaker 1: Roxy Heart Puck. Okay, that is like the best worst
Speaker 1: basic cable sitcom reboot I've ever heard of in my life. Like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, yes you're the answer to your question
Speaker 1: is yes, yes, amazing. That Wait so horrible. Wait who
Speaker 1: would they cast as Vilma, Kelly and Roxy Heart doing
Speaker 1: a murder punk? Oh my god, they'd be like Kristen
Speaker 1: Ritter and Kristen Bell are Roxy and Velma and oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, sign me up. Honestly, CBS call me. I've
Speaker 1: got the worst idea ever. Oh my god, it would
Speaker 1: be on CBS and there would be like laugh tracks
Speaker 1: and stuff. Yeah, oh my god, it would be an
Speaker 1: absolute nightmare and millions of people would watch. It would
Speaker 1: be America's number one show. Anyway. Hello, and welcome to
Speaker 1: the Beckel Cast. Jamie. It's your birthday episode day. Happy birthday, Jamie.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Uh yeah, I um, I can't
Speaker 1: believe it. Another year, another year has past. I've spent
Speaker 1: half of my twenties on this podcast. Wow Fully, we're
Speaker 1: coming up on the five year anniversary. We are, which
Speaker 1: means I've spent half of my thirties on this podcast.
Speaker 1: It's I mean, we look at God. Look at God.
Speaker 1: When God invented podcasting, she really had us in mind.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for the birthday wishes. On the
Speaker 1: actual day of my birthday when this comes out, I'll
Speaker 1: be in Boston. I think that I'll buy I'll do
Speaker 1: I'll do the Jamie Classic Boston Special, which is that
Speaker 1: I will get a large cold brew, drink the whole thing.
Speaker 1: Then I will go to a bar and have a beer,
Speaker 1: and then they'll cancel each other out and I'll be
Speaker 1: kind of tired, and then I'll do the same thing again,
Speaker 1: and then I'll sleep for twelve hours. I think that's
Speaker 1: probably gonna be how I spent my birthday. I did
Speaker 1: that for so like, why live your life like that?
Speaker 1: But that's what I did. I mean, it's your life,
Speaker 1: your choice. I'm just sad that I'm not there to
Speaker 1: spend it with you because I'm still in l A.
Speaker 1: I would, oh my god, I would peel all of
Speaker 1: my skin off to be back in l A. But
Speaker 1: you know what I love. I love Boston, I love
Speaker 1: my family, So it's fine. Yeah, so so no, I
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to finally be covering a movie that
Speaker 1: I feel like we were okay. So we're covering Chicago
Speaker 1: two thousand two, a modern classic, one of my favorites,
Speaker 1: and I feel like we were originally putting off covering
Speaker 1: this movie because we wanted to do a live show
Speaker 1: in Chicago and cover Chicago. Was that the reason? I
Speaker 1: believe so well, So, with all due respect to Chicago,
Speaker 1: I could not wait any longer. I couldn't. I couldn't
Speaker 1: wait another second. And uh, you know the way things
Speaker 1: are going right now, who knows when we will be
Speaker 1: performing regularly again. So we're doing Chicago and I'm so
Speaker 1: oh my god. I okay, I can we can we like? Well, wait,
Speaker 1: this is a main feat episode. Okay, so this is
Speaker 1: the Bechtel cast. This is our It's my birthday. I
Speaker 1: don't have to be good at my job today. Do
Speaker 1: you want to take a load off and let me
Speaker 1: do this so you can just sit back and relax
Speaker 1: on your birthday? Oh my god, I'm going to have
Speaker 1: a sip of lean in food Google's Summer Shandy. Oh yummy,
Speaker 1: take a swig, and I will tell the listeners that
Speaker 1: what is the show again? We examine movies through an
Speaker 1: intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a
Speaker 1: jumping off point, which is of course a media metric
Speaker 1: created by cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace
Speaker 1: test that requires for our specific purposes, because we've made
Speaker 1: some slight variations to the test here and there. Our
Speaker 1: version is due two people of any marginalized gender, how
Speaker 1: of names, They have to speak to each other about
Speaker 1: something other than a man, for what is hopefully a
Speaker 1: meaningful conversation in the movie or work of fiction. Right
Speaker 1: and boy is Chicago an incredible movie? To cover? For
Speaker 1: these purposes, they are talking about. I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: we we've been adding asterisks to this test. I feel
Speaker 1: like this asterisk canonically on this show may already exist
Speaker 1: that if you're talking about murdering a man who's an asshole,
Speaker 1: it's it's actually as that does pass the test. I
Speaker 1: agree this, not that we are condoning murdering men, but
Speaker 1: like in the fictional space, it's cathartic. Okay there. This
Speaker 1: movie gets me so fucking pumped for what I don't know,
Speaker 1: but it basically just like any time I think about
Speaker 1: this movie, I then have to draw everything and listen
Speaker 1: to the soundtrack and like go on like a three
Speaker 1: mile walk and just be like, wow, how did they
Speaker 1: do this? How did this come together? It doesn't sound
Speaker 1: like it should work, but it does, but it does.
Speaker 1: It's so good. Would you say that this movie gets
Speaker 1: you jazzed? It it gets me so fucking hyped. And
Speaker 1: this is the kind of movie I feel like this
Speaker 1: really um defines what makes a movie fun. Is that
Speaker 1: you know, like when you're I don't know, when you
Speaker 1: really love a movie, you like picture yourself as all
Speaker 1: of the different characters, or like one specific character where
Speaker 1: you're like that one's me in Chicago. I picture being
Speaker 1: all of the characters like you're just like You've got
Speaker 1: your days where you're like I'm being I'm being such
Speaker 1: an amos today, I'm just getting run over. You have
Speaker 1: your roxy days where you're like, I am just like
Speaker 1: living on another planet and I'm not connected with reality
Speaker 1: at this time. Then some days you're just hot and
Speaker 1: your Velma Ellie and you're and then some days you're
Speaker 1: Billy Flynn and you're in you're feeling sneaky, and it's
Speaker 1: just I love this movie. I love all the characters.
Speaker 1: They're all terrible people. They're all the worst, and I
Speaker 1: really like when oh, I'm sorry, I'm just like Jamie,
Speaker 1: it's your birthday, it's my birth it's my birthday. I
Speaker 1: really enjoy movies. I'm trying to think of other movies
Speaker 1: that kind of take this tech movies that are like
Speaker 1: really fun and high energy but also have a pretty
Speaker 1: low opinion of humanity. I love movies like that. And
Speaker 1: this is like this, like it's like scratches that little
Speaker 1: spot behind my ear. It's so good. That is like
Speaker 1: Titania kind of like man, it kind of like goes
Speaker 1: in there too. There there's a little more empathy at
Speaker 1: play in that movie than there is here. I mean,
Speaker 1: everyone in Chicago is a nightmare. They're they're all so bad,
Speaker 1: but you like understand, I don't know, I just love it.
Speaker 1: But I'm rooting for all of them. Honestly, why am I? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the other thing, Like, why am I root for
Speaker 1: these motherfucker's They're just they're all except with and I
Speaker 1: do kind of like, I don't know, I'm just going
Speaker 1: to make a million exceptions for this movie because I
Speaker 1: don't like when the only like truly, like, oh, unquestionably
Speaker 1: sympathetic character is some guy. But for some reason, when
Speaker 1: it's Chicago and it's John c Riley, I'm like, whatever,
Speaker 1: whatever his performance and Mr Cellophane even I'm gonna argue
Speaker 1: with that, no way, no way, it's too good. I
Speaker 1: think you could also make the argument that he's not
Speaker 1: that sympathetic or redeemable. I'm not saying he's a great guy.
Speaker 1: I'm saying that it's it's very easy to feel for
Speaker 1: his predicament to be kind of someone who is not
Speaker 1: equipped to handle a situation that includes scrutiny, nuance, or
Speaker 1: public attention. But yeah, I mean no, everyone in this
Speaker 1: movie in this story like sucks to some degree, except
Speaker 1: for vill m Kelly, who I think is kind of
Speaker 1: above criticism. Um. But also but like, I don't mean that.
Speaker 1: Also Christine Barrand amazing. She's so good. She's just oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is I and sorry to all the
Speaker 1: Mamma Mia heads out there, but this is Christine Baranski's
Speaker 1: best musical movie. Sorry, which she has a tiny line,
Speaker 1: a few tiny lines here and there in the song
Speaker 1: about they both reached for the gun. But other than that,
Speaker 1: I don't think we see her sing right. No, but
Speaker 1: that verse with Richard Gear and they're dancing around and
Speaker 1: then Rene's Alwiger does that little smile. I love this
Speaker 1: movie so much. Did you see it when it first
Speaker 1: came out? Or no? I wasn't allowed to see it.
Speaker 1: I was was movie came out, And yeah, I was
Speaker 1: like eight or nine when this movie came out, so
Speaker 1: I wasn't allowed to see it. But I remember very
Speaker 1: clearly my grandma r. I. P. Pat loftis the best.
Speaker 1: She Her whole deal was that she would tell you
Speaker 1: things you weren't supposed to know when your parents weren't around,
Speaker 1: and then your parents would be like, why the fund
Speaker 1: did you tell her that? Um? So she I remember
Speaker 1: very clearly. We were at uh. She brought me out
Speaker 1: for like a report card lunch, and she described everything
Speaker 1: that happened in Chicago to me. She told me the
Speaker 1: whole movie and she was like, it's so good. I
Speaker 1: saw it with my friend May and it was just
Speaker 1: the best thing I've ever seen. And she told me
Speaker 1: about the whole movie, and then I think, I think
Speaker 1: I would have seen it when it came out on DVD,
Speaker 1: so like I was pretty young when I when I
Speaker 1: saw it, I just didn't see it in theaters and
Speaker 1: was just like so hooked on it. This was my
Speaker 1: first This was my introduction to Richard Gear because I
Speaker 1: still haven't seen Pretty Woman. What wow, I know, but
Speaker 1: this was my introduction to Richard Gear and he went
Speaker 1: on to become a very formative childhood crush of mine.
Speaker 1: Sure off of this movie, as did Katherine Sada Jones,
Speaker 1: and so I just, uh, I love this movie and
Speaker 1: it's interesting to watch back in because unfortunately I feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of the themes and like messages in
Speaker 1: this movie are timeless in a way that people are
Speaker 1: always bad, right, But I don't know just I mean,
Speaker 1: this is like a very low hanging fruit angle to take.
Speaker 1: But I was like, oh, watching Chicago, you know carefully
Speaker 1: after the last five years in the US, you're like, wellshit,
Speaker 1: it's wild. Yeah, yeah, what's your what's your history with Chicago?
Speaker 1: I didn't see it right away. I don't think I
Speaker 1: saw it until until after it won the Economy Award
Speaker 1: for Best Picture, and then I was like, oh, I
Speaker 1: guess I should see this. Um. I was in high
Speaker 1: school at the time, and as listeners of the podcast
Speaker 1: might know, I am generally not a fan of live
Speaker 1: action movie musicals, but there are a handful of exceptions,
Speaker 1: and Chicago is one of them. When I did see it,
Speaker 1: I liked the movie enough to buy it on DVD.
Speaker 1: It's a romp. It's a romp, but for some reason. Okay,
Speaker 1: So a friend of the cast, Katherine Leon Spy Kids episode.
Speaker 1: Of course, she and I used to like. She would
Speaker 1: come over, we would sit in my bed. I would
Speaker 1: show her like quintessential movies that she had never seen.
Speaker 1: I was like, you haven't seen Star Wars. Here are
Speaker 1: the Star Wars movies. You haven't seen this, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: I would we would like rifle through my huge binder
Speaker 1: of DVDs and she's like, oh my god, you have Chicago.
Speaker 1: I love Chicago. And then for some reason, course Katherine
Speaker 1: loves Chicago. She has got a great taste. But for
Speaker 1: some reason, I was like, do you want it? I
Speaker 1: never watched this movie. Here you can have my DVD.
Speaker 1: And now I regret it because I'm like, I would
Speaker 1: like that back, Catherine. Catherine, have you asked? Yeah, she's not.
Speaker 1: It's not like she's refusing to give it to me.
Speaker 1: I just she doesn't know that. I um. Also, it's
Speaker 1: like streaming, so who cares. But but I I purchased,
Speaker 1: I really made. I made a lifelong commitment and I
Speaker 1: purchased Chicago Diamond addition to watch whenever I wanted. It's
Speaker 1: remastered and it has all these fun features and I
Speaker 1: had such a fun time watching them. The production of
Speaker 1: this movie looked so fun, Like do you ever any
Speaker 1: time I would watch a First of all, Rob Marshall
Speaker 1: directed this movie and is further proof that the choreographer
Speaker 1: to director Pipeline is immaculate and needs no adjustment. See
Speaker 1: Kenny or take Up. I was gonna say yeah, and
Speaker 1: I think that's the only other example. I'm sure there's others,
Speaker 1: but that's too. That's two pretty strong choreography good examples.
Speaker 1: Rob Marshall choreographed and directed this movie and all the
Speaker 1: behind the scenes. It just looks like a bunch of
Speaker 1: celebrities went to summer camp to put together a school
Speaker 1: play and then one of my favorite movies came out
Speaker 1: of it. Like is so cool? I love Wow? Well,
Speaker 1: should I do the recap? And yes, but I need
Speaker 1: to tell you something about Rob Marshall first, Okay, please,
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you located this fact. This is
Speaker 1: something that like, okay, much like my other fun fact
Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with this movie, but we
Speaker 1: talked about the other day. This is a fact that
Speaker 1: I know in my bones, but I forget and I
Speaker 1: relearned once every couple of years, and I love it.
Speaker 1: It's about director Rob Marshall, and it's that he began
Speaker 1: as a dancer then became a choreographer. Makes sense. But
Speaker 1: the thing that launched him into choreography and directing and
Speaker 1: got him out of the full time dancing game is
Speaker 1: that he suffered a herniated disc while performing in Cats.
Speaker 1: So the only reason that Chicago two thousand two is
Speaker 1: as amazing as it is because I feel like that
Speaker 1: choreography and like the understanding of stage language is so
Speaker 1: much of what makes this movie awesome and why I
Speaker 1: like it more than a lot of other live action
Speaker 1: movie musicals. Yeah, as it actually like understands cinematic language
Speaker 1: and like how to put together a musical in a
Speaker 1: way that's like totally I can suspend my disbelief for
Speaker 1: the things that are happening, etcetera. It's so yeah, it's
Speaker 1: so good. And if he hadn't suffered a herniated disc
Speaker 1: while being a full body cat, it wouldn't have happened. Imagine.
Speaker 1: It is interesting to me how it's like I guess
Speaker 1: that I'm I still haven't seen in the Heights, and
Speaker 1: like whatever, there's that Steven Spielberg West Side Story coming out.
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's going to be any good, because
Speaker 1: I feel like big directors are given popular Broadway musicals
Speaker 1: and very often like I don't know what to do
Speaker 1: with them, and they're so I mean, it's like you've
Speaker 1: got Joel Schumacher fant about the opera a lot of swings.
Speaker 1: He didn't know what he was doing. Chris Columbus did Rent,
Speaker 1: which is one of the worst like director to project
Speaker 1: matches I can think of. Like, there's just so many
Speaker 1: examples of people getting it wrong, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: cats cat whatever, I forget his name, but the guy
Speaker 1: who did what's his name, Tom Tom Pepe, Yeah, who
Speaker 1: also funked up La Miss, but everyone gave him awards
Speaker 1: for it for some reason. It's like, oh, can you
Speaker 1: make every famous person sing out of key and cover
Speaker 1: them in dirt? Like I don't get but but yeah,
Speaker 1: like this this whole I think is so interesting about
Speaker 1: this movie because it's like this movie and Mulin Rouge
Speaker 1: came out very close together, and I feel like people
Speaker 1: sort of thought, oh, there's going to be this big
Speaker 1: resurgence of the movie musical, but then there kind of
Speaker 1: wasn't because then they just like hired all these famous
Speaker 1: directors who didn't understand musicals. But Lan Rouge one of
Speaker 1: the few other live action movie musicals that I can
Speaker 1: fully get behind. It's amazing. I was. I feel like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever said his name correctly,
Speaker 1: bas Learman. I think that's right. He definitely has like
Speaker 1: an understanding of like movement and pacing and like that's
Speaker 1: so much of his style and that's why it works. Anyways,
Speaker 1: pisses me off. Stopped getting really famous people who make
Speaker 1: like war movies, war horses, like musicals. What are you
Speaker 1: doing anyways? Um, maybe we should take a quick break
Speaker 1: before we get into the recap, because we've just been
Speaker 1: chatting for so long about how great Chicago is. All right,
Speaker 1: so let's take a quick break and we'll come right
Speaker 1: back and we're back. Okay, let's summarize the movie. I
Speaker 1: promised not keep talking about. Oh wait, but I have
Speaker 1: one more fun factor. No please, we talked about it
Speaker 1: the other day. I'm sure it's connected to Chicago tangentially because,
Speaker 1: oh because the two people in this fun fact, we're
Speaker 1: both living in Chicago. We're very famous in Chicago. Roger
Speaker 1: Ebert and Oprah used to date in the eighties. That
Speaker 1: is a Chicago fact. That's just Chicago canon. Chicago canon
Speaker 1: includes this musical and the fact that Roger Ebert and
Speaker 1: Oprah briefly dated, which I didn't know about until you
Speaker 1: told me. I don't know why that's not more common knowledge.
Speaker 1: I know, but they were. But it's like at first year,
Speaker 1: like but he's like so much older than her and
Speaker 1: she's so much cooler than him. And Steadman is such
Speaker 1: a you know, Steadman is so canon, right, but yeah,
Speaker 1: like he was basically her last boyfriend before Steadman came
Speaker 1: into the picture, one of the last ones wild. That's
Speaker 1: just that's I'm Richard Gear putting my hat on, and
Speaker 1: that's Chicago. Oh my god. And that's going to be
Speaker 1: one of those facts that I will forget and then
Speaker 1: relearn in a couple of months or years or whatever,
Speaker 1: and then be like, oh my god, I can't believe it.
Speaker 1: It's just like Rob Marshall getting a herniated desk in Cats.
Speaker 1: It's just a delightful thing to learn over and over again.
Speaker 1: So what so what happens in this movie anyways? Okay,
Speaker 1: let me tell you. It's the roaring twenties in ch Chicago.
Speaker 1: There's jazz music, they're flapperds, there speakeasies, it's the whole
Speaker 1: nine yards. He Digs is in charge. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: I was so delighted to see him. Who's my first
Speaker 1: height Digs movie? Too? Was? It really is going five six, seven, eight?
Speaker 1: And then what you're ten and you're like, what is
Speaker 1: exqueeze me, who's that exciting? Just a reminder. T Diggs
Speaker 1: now follows me on Twitter thanks to our Stella got
Speaker 1: her groove back episode, so incredible. Tag him in this
Speaker 1: I will. And another celebrity connection I have to this
Speaker 1: movie is that John c Riley I saw at a
Speaker 1: roller skating rink in Glendale, California. Oh my gosh. And
Speaker 1: he's like a regular and not to docks his hobbies,
Speaker 1: but yeah, isn't he like a regular there? And he's
Speaker 1: like really good. That's what I've heard. He was a
Speaker 1: pretty good roller skater. It's true. And uh, I I
Speaker 1: don't know how frequently he he attends this roller rink,
Speaker 1: but um, I'm so glad that John c Riley exit.
Speaker 1: I feel like there's so many dads that have been
Speaker 1: able to connect with their children over a mutual appreciation
Speaker 1: of John c Riley. What a beautiful thing. Dads are
Speaker 1: obsessed with John c Riley. The deeper, the cut, the better,
Speaker 1: and I understand why. I get it. Okay, So we're
Speaker 1: in the jazz age in Chicago. We meet vil m Kelly.
Speaker 1: That's Katherine's to Jones Hot. She shows up at this
Speaker 1: jazz club to do her vaudeville act, which she normally
Speaker 1: does with her sister, but her sister isn't there, and
Speaker 1: Velma is washing blood off her hands, and we're like,
Speaker 1: what's what's going on? And then it's one of the
Speaker 1: best openings of any movie ever. She's so hot, she's
Speaker 1: so it's like I in our defense, she like her
Speaker 1: whole She's obviously very hot, but like her whole attitude
Speaker 1: is like hot, Like she's just hot at a very profound,
Speaker 1: like in this confident way. You're like, I'm never going
Speaker 1: to feel that way for a second of my entire life.
Speaker 1: It's so amazing to just behold it, truly is. It's great.
Speaker 1: And as you mentioned, Tay Diggs is also there playing
Speaker 1: the piano and all over the place. Also there is
Speaker 1: roxy Heart that's Renai's elbowger. She is in the audience
Speaker 1: watching Velma. Then she goes home with this guy that
Speaker 1: she's having an affair with who I forgot to write
Speaker 1: his name down? Fred Caseley? Fred Caseley? Yes, whose Fred
Speaker 1: Casey Mike's boyfriend? Why did you shoot him? I was leaving, etcetera.
Speaker 1: R Yes. She finds out that Fred Caseley has been
Speaker 1: lying to her about being able to help her break
Speaker 1: into show biz, which is her dream. She wants to
Speaker 1: be just like Vill m kelly. Basically, Fred Casey is
Speaker 1: basically a guy who will drive you to an open
Speaker 1: mic and say that he can get you up at
Speaker 1: the open mic, but then it turns out he can't
Speaker 1: even he can't even get himself up at the open mic,
Speaker 1: and you're like, hold on, and then you understand her
Speaker 1: motive for shooting him, because that kind of guy, you know,
Speaker 1: the kind of guy. Yeah. So he then gets really
Speaker 1: aggressive with her and physically assaults her, so she shoots
Speaker 1: and kills him. Yeah. Roxy then tries to get her
Speaker 1: husband Amos that's John c Riley to take the fall
Speaker 1: for it, saying that this guy was a burglar and
Speaker 1: that Amos shot him in self defense. Another amazing number.
Speaker 1: It's so funny. Honey Rocks. Not one of my favorites,
Speaker 1: but still pretty good. I love I love it. I
Speaker 1: love when Rene's Algar is just casting looks at John
Speaker 1: c Riley and he's like, but what, but what? But what?
Speaker 1: And you're like, oh my gosh, someone helped this guy out.
Speaker 1: And then she pushes him right because he is slowly
Speaker 1: realizing that this guy who has been shot is someone
Speaker 1: who Roxy knows and is having an affair with. So
Speaker 1: Roxy ends up getting arrested and getting sent to Cook
Speaker 1: County jail, and the d A wants to see her
Speaker 1: hanged for her crime. Right, that's like a big, big deal,
Speaker 1: which I guess which I didn't realize, Like how like
Speaker 1: historically accurate that was at the time too, of just
Speaker 1: the kind of blood lust that came with normalized hangings
Speaker 1: and death penalties in the US. Yeah, scary, So the
Speaker 1: stakes are high, yes, And in jail, Roxy meets Mama Morton.
Speaker 1: That's Queen Latifa, who I want to see an entire
Speaker 1: movie about her character. I wish. I've never seen the
Speaker 1: stage production of this. I do like in the movie.
Speaker 1: I feel like I definitely want to know more about
Speaker 1: Mama Morton, Like how did she get start working there?
Speaker 1: What is her background? Like what does she do when
Speaker 1: she's not working? Like, I don't know, there's I have
Speaker 1: a bajillion questions, And I wonder if there's more to
Speaker 1: her in the stage production. I've never seen it on stage.
Speaker 1: I was love too, but yeah, like Queen Latifa, just
Speaker 1: I mean she was nominated for I think, like everyone
Speaker 1: was nominated for an Oscar for this movie, but Queen
Speaker 1: Latifa was I think, I mean, Catherine's Aida Jones ended
Speaker 1: up winning and she was also amazing, but I think
Speaker 1: Queen Latifa for me, kind of takes it because she
Speaker 1: just kills it. It's so good. And yeah, it's like,
Speaker 1: because of how good she is, you just want to
Speaker 1: watch this character forever. And she's funny when she has
Speaker 1: the blonde wig. Oh my gosh, it's also good. I
Speaker 1: read that there was a musical number that she and
Speaker 1: Katherine's Data Jones saying in a movie called Class that
Speaker 1: they cut from the movie. Yeah, it's in the credits instead,
Speaker 1: So yeah, we maybe learn more there, but yeah, I
Speaker 1: feel like we and we'll talk about this, but yeah,
Speaker 1: we do not get a lot of background on her
Speaker 1: but her role in the So she is also a prisoner, right,
Speaker 1: but she has taken on this role of helping out
Speaker 1: other prisoners in exchange for money. Ever heard of it?
Speaker 1: So we meet her and she gets a great song
Speaker 1: which I think is my favorite in the movie, which
Speaker 1: how does it go? When You're good to Mama, When
Speaker 1: you're good to mama, Mama's good to you. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's so good that whole number. And then in the
Speaker 1: behind the scenes they show you how they shot it,
Speaker 1: and I guess they shot it like the first time
Speaker 1: they shot it in the like stagey version where she's
Speaker 1: wearing the flapper outfit. Um the first time, they had
Speaker 1: her stay on stage the whole time, and then Rob
Speaker 1: Marshall's like, let's try it, and this time like go
Speaker 1: into the crowd and interact with people, and they ended
Speaker 1: up using stuff from both versions, and it's so I
Speaker 1: was like, I love that. It's it's so good. It's great.
Speaker 1: So Roxy meets Mama Morton. She also meets vil M Kelly,
Speaker 1: who has since been arrested for murdering her husband and
Speaker 1: her sister who were having an affair with each other.
Speaker 1: And then we also get introduced to the six Mary
Speaker 1: murderouses of the Cook County Jail, who have mostly murdered
Speaker 1: men because they were cheating on the women or the
Speaker 1: women were annoyed with popping bubblegum. I found that to
Speaker 1: be pretty funny as a motive. So Roxy asks Vilma
Speaker 1: Kelly for advice on how to avoid being hanged, but
Speaker 1: Vilma like kind of blows her off, so Roxy goes
Speaker 1: to Mamma Morton who tells roxy that she needs a
Speaker 1: good lawyer. Enter Billy Flynn. Well, yeah, and I as
Speaker 1: MoMA Martin is not a prisoner. She's not. Oh no,
Speaker 1: she's not. She's like the superintendent as she's like the
Speaker 1: warden of the prison she's employed by, So that's why
Speaker 1: that's where her power comes from. So she's I feel
Speaker 1: like she is kind of like a stand in for
Speaker 1: how the prison system is extremely corrupt because she is
Speaker 1: like taking money from prisoners and accepting bribes in order
Speaker 1: to communicate with the outside world because she has access
Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, she's like a prison warden. Got it.
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell because the prison staff were dressed very
Speaker 1: similarly to we all have the same prisoners. So it's like,
Speaker 1: is she a prisoner? No, she's not, got it? Because
Speaker 1: I've seen Shawshank Redemption a million times, I thought she
Speaker 1: was like the Red character of that movie, who plays
Speaker 1: a very similar role in like procuring things for the
Speaker 1: other prisoners. But Red is a prisoner as well, so
Speaker 1: I just kind of assumed it was the same situation.
Speaker 1: Mama isn't she is, She's the warden and that's why
Speaker 1: she is able. I think it's like when she takes money,
Speaker 1: she's able to like contact the press, contact Billy Flynn,
Speaker 1: contact whoever. That makes more sense. Okay, So Mama Morton
Speaker 1: tells Roxy to hire Billy Flynn, who is very good
Speaker 1: at defending women murderers, but he's also a very sleazy,
Speaker 1: money grubbing lawyer. Guy. It's like a cartoonish yeah, criminal
Speaker 1: defense lawyer. Yeah. So Billy Flynn already represents Filma and
Speaker 1: he eventually takes on Roxy's case as well, thinking that
Speaker 1: he can spin her as this like sweet reformed Southern
Speaker 1: bell type. Because the whole thing with these murderous is
Speaker 1: is that they have to get like the public and
Speaker 1: the press to empathize with them, like empathize with this
Speaker 1: persona that they cultivate in order to clear them of charges.
Speaker 1: So this is what both Velma and Roxy are trying
Speaker 1: to do for their like defense, and the public falls
Speaker 1: in love with Roxy heart. Billy Flynn is paying a
Speaker 1: lot of attention to her case, which makes Velma very jealous,
Speaker 1: and Roxy is also trying to capitalize on her fame
Speaker 1: as a murderer and turn it around into a successful
Speaker 1: show business career, assuming she gets out of prison right,
Speaker 1: which she is like directly stealing that from Velma Kelly
Speaker 1: who's in the middle of doing it, and it's Roxy
Speaker 1: is so naive. And then Velma, who the public is
Speaker 1: starting to forget about, tries to suck up to Roxy.
Speaker 1: She pitches that they do an act together when they're
Speaker 1: released from prison, but Rocket number Tay Diggs being like
Speaker 1: Vilma Kelly and an act of desperation and we're like,
Speaker 1: t he he it's so good. And then Catherine Aanda Jones,
Speaker 1: Oh god, it's so good seeing like a really well
Speaker 1: executed like song and dance number, but also like you
Speaker 1: know that the characters like really at the end of
Speaker 1: their rope, and she's so desperate and sad and oh,
Speaker 1: I love this movie so much. So Vilma pitches this idea,
Speaker 1: but Roxy, who remembers when Vilma was really mean to her,
Speaker 1: is like um pass. But then people momentarily lose interest
Speaker 1: in Roxy. When a new murderous takes Chicago by a
Speaker 1: storm yep, Lucy lou Is saying I have three for
Speaker 1: you go to Hell. It is like ja, oh my god, Pulitzer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: her character's name is Kitty Baxter. Um and everyone's obsessed
Speaker 1: with her for a while, so as a publicity stunt
Speaker 1: to get back in the spotlight, Roxy pretends to faint
Speaker 1: and then says, oh, no, I hope the fall didn't
Speaker 1: hurt the baby a k A. She's pretending to be
Speaker 1: gregnant gregnant, she's pretending to be heavy with greg That brilliant,
Speaker 1: shitty person thing to do in that moment. Truly, she
Speaker 1: would make a great influencer TikTok personality today she essentially is, Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's like a flapper influencer, where she's like a flash
Speaker 1: in the pan. She's not doing anything special, but she's
Speaker 1: like cut throat in a way that you're like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, this woman is terrifying to me, or just
Speaker 1: I mean person in general, terrifying influencers, No, no gender,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's everybody, truly. Um And this publicity stunt works.
Speaker 1: But then Amos figures out that he couldn't be the
Speaker 1: father based on this like fabricated do date, so he
Speaker 1: plans to divorce her. Mr Cellaphane comes on and we're like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's so sad and good, and then my dad's like,
Speaker 1: maybe I do like musicals. Well that happened yeah, because
Speaker 1: and that's and that's the power of John c Riley
Speaker 1: to get my dad to watch a whole movie musical
Speaker 1: and be like, I kind of like that. Wow, Mike,
Speaker 1: I like John c Riley song. Shout out to Mike
Speaker 1: Loftus shout out like Meanwhile, one of the lady murderers
Speaker 1: in jail loses her appeal and is hanged, making her
Speaker 1: the first woman in Illinois to be executed. Also, we
Speaker 1: have met a reporter named Mary Sunshine. That's Christine Baranski
Speaker 1: who we see throughout the movie. She's reporting heavily on
Speaker 1: all of these cases of the women in murder throw Yeah,
Speaker 1: just to shout her out. She's incredible. The outfits that
Speaker 1: she wears, I mean iconic. This was I think my
Speaker 1: first time when I saw this movie. It was my
Speaker 1: first time seeing so many famous people. This definitely would
Speaker 1: have been like my adwitter, Richard gear renaz Alwig Er Katain's,
Speaker 1: Aida Jones, Queen Latifa, John c. I mean, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have seen any of these people before because I was nine.
Speaker 1: But the only person I had seen before was Christine
Speaker 1: Baranski because she was in How the Grinch Stole Christmas.
Speaker 1: Martha May who so her influence, she had a strangle
Speaker 1: hold on millennial children. What a What a career? She said,
Speaker 1: what a career. So then it's time for Roxy's trial,
Speaker 1: which goes well. At first it seems like this defense
Speaker 1: that Billy Flynn and Roxy have created is working on
Speaker 1: the jury, but then Velma is called in to testify
Speaker 1: and she lies about some information that makes Roxy look bad.
Speaker 1: But then Billy works as magic and Roxy is ultimately
Speaker 1: found not guilty. But the moment she's exonerated, another woman
Speaker 1: commits a murder on the courthouse steps, so the public
Speaker 1: frenzy moves on to her and no one cares about
Speaker 1: Roxy anymore, or Lucy Lou or Lucy Lou or Velma.
Speaker 1: So one day Velma approaches Roxy and she's like, hey,
Speaker 1: remember that double act I pitched. Let's do it, baby,
Speaker 1: And then Roxy's like, well, I hate you but fine.
Speaker 1: That's my favorite, one of my favorite line reads in
Speaker 1: the entire movie, where she's like, should we do it?
Speaker 1: And then Roxy is like no, and then she says
Speaker 1: why and she because I hate you away It's then
Speaker 1: Velma's like, there's only one business in the world where
Speaker 1: that doesn't matter, and then we're like show business. The
Speaker 1: way that Catherine's Aada Jones speaks is so like wealthy.
Speaker 1: I don't know how she she makes words just they
Speaker 1: just keep going. There's this um on one of my
Speaker 1: favorite podcasts, Who Weekly Um, which is a celebrity gossip
Speaker 1: podcast that is I do recommend it. It's really good.
Speaker 1: But they've been covering Catherine's Dada Jones quite a bit
Speaker 1: recently because she is starting all of these small businesses
Speaker 1: that don't make any sense. But she recently posted a
Speaker 1: TikTok with these like gourds that she had grown in
Speaker 1: her garden. Picture of this Katherin's Aida Jones holding an
Speaker 1: enormous gourd, right, and she says it's extremely large, Like
Speaker 1: she's just like talking about gourds, but she's Katherine's Dada Jones,
Speaker 1: and so it just sounds like so theatrical. It's that's
Speaker 1: the energy she's bringing to Like there's one business where
Speaker 1: that doesn't matter at all. You're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: she sounds like a long cigarette Like it's it's wild.
Speaker 1: I mean, she was perfectly cast, she really was. So.
Speaker 1: Then the movie ends with Roxy and Velma performing on
Speaker 1: a big stage for lots of adoring fans and that's
Speaker 1: the movie. Yeah, so let's take another quick break and
Speaker 1: then we'll come back to discuss and reac I wanted
Speaker 1: to just start this conversation by acknowledging something that is
Speaker 1: by far one of the worst elements of this movie,
Speaker 1: which is the fact that it's produced by the Wine
Speaker 1: Stains having and and this is I mean, we've talked
Speaker 1: about it on the show before. I don't think that
Speaker 1: there's really occasion to rehash everything now, but obviously the
Speaker 1: fact that the wine Stains are attached to this production
Speaker 1: is horrific and it and it just you know, it
Speaker 1: takes kind of a little bit of the wind out
Speaker 1: of a really amazing production. Fortunately, it as far as
Speaker 1: I can tell, it doesn't seem as if the Weinsteins
Speaker 1: were like around in an onset capacity. Um. It seems
Speaker 1: like the production of this movie was relatively smooth. There
Speaker 1: was some news items I was seeing about I believe
Speaker 1: Goldie Hawn almost being in an adaptation of Chicago by
Speaker 1: the Weinsteins in the mid nineties, and then she was
Speaker 1: harassed by Harvey Weinstein and the project ended up not happening.
Speaker 1: Uh well, linked to that in the description, but obviously
Speaker 1: want to acknowledge their involvements, and I mean it goes
Speaker 1: without saying that they're fucking monsters, but the production team
Speaker 1: on this movie, I mean, it's kind of interesting where
Speaker 1: this movie is written and directed by men. They are
Speaker 1: both gay men and openly gay men. In uh in
Speaker 1: Hollywood and in early two thousand's that was still a
Speaker 1: pretty um unusual thing to be an openly gay director
Speaker 1: directing movies of you know that were this huge. So
Speaker 1: shout out to Rob Marshall and his hopefully recovered disc
Speaker 1: for that and and their queer directors who have gone
Speaker 1: on to have huge careers afterwards. This is I don't
Speaker 1: think Rob Marshall ever, you know, returned to the height
Speaker 1: of Chicago, but you know, he directed Into the Woods,
Speaker 1: which I didn't see. He directed the Emily Blunt Mary Poppins,
Speaker 1: He's directing the New Little Mermaid, and then the screenplay
Speaker 1: was written by Bill Condon, who started as a writer
Speaker 1: and is now a huge director. He wrote Chicago, but
Speaker 1: he also wrote and directed Dream Girls, another faive of
Speaker 1: mine from this time, directed to Twilights, directed both Breaking Down.
Speaker 1: Mr Bill was was there um and also directed the
Speaker 1: uh what he he wrote The Greatest Showman. Okay, that's
Speaker 1: the point against him. But and then he directed The
Speaker 1: Emma Watson Beauty and The Beast That Sucked. All that
Speaker 1: to say, the two kind of top brass. Here are
Speaker 1: queer men who went on to have very successful careers.
Speaker 1: So shouts out there, good for them. Yeah, should we
Speaker 1: do a little context. Yeah, the context for this movie rocks.
Speaker 1: I knew I knew some of this, but going back
Speaker 1: and like finding out how much of this movie at well,
Speaker 1: this musical is pulled from actual history is so wild.
Speaker 1: Do you want to take it? I can take whatever
Speaker 1: you prefer. How about this? Take another swig of your
Speaker 1: your beer? All I ran out? Oh no, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, I'll take the reins on this one.
Speaker 1: But if there's anything I messed up or that you'd
Speaker 1: like to add, by all means, I'll just chime in.
Speaker 1: I'll just chime in my nase. Okay, So Chicago The
Speaker 1: Two movie is based on a nineteen stage musical of
Speaker 1: the same name, which had a revival in which became
Speaker 1: the longest running American musical and Broadway history. Bob Fossey, Baby,
Speaker 1: that's that Fossy Magic. Yes. Um, that musical was based
Speaker 1: on a nine Broadway play by Maureen Dallas Watkins, who
Speaker 1: we will be talking more about, and that play is
Speaker 1: about to real life jazz era murderers. These names I
Speaker 1: might get wrong as far as pronunciation. Um, it's these
Speaker 1: names sound to me like you're forgetting val m Kelly
Speaker 1: and Roxy Heart. Like it just sound like you're like
Speaker 1: um Belva Gartner and you're like no Velma Kelly, so
Speaker 1: Belva Gartner who Velma Kelly is based on, and Boula
Speaker 1: Bela Ann who Roxy Heart is based on. So basically
Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties in Chicago, I don't know if
Speaker 1: there was like an unprecedented number of women in jail
Speaker 1: for murder in this time and place, or if it's
Speaker 1: just that women being in jail for murder in Chicago
Speaker 1: in the twenties was especially publicized, and that's why we
Speaker 1: know a lot about it. I have. I have a
Speaker 1: tiny bit of insight here that connects to quick Plug
Speaker 1: ac cast just still being released right now. You can
Speaker 1: listen to it and you can hear Caitlin's voice in
Speaker 1: it as well in it. But so my understanding of
Speaker 1: this is at least in the way it was covered
Speaker 1: in the media, which is like, what that whole play
Speaker 1: was satirizing, is that this kind of comes at the
Speaker 1: tail end, Like the crimes that this is based on
Speaker 1: comes a couple of years after women get the vote. Uh,
Speaker 1: it comes at the tail end of the first wave
Speaker 1: feminist movement. And so the whole Flapper era, I mean
Speaker 1: it was, and we'll discussed this as well, it was
Speaker 1: very still centered on middle class and above white women,
Speaker 1: which this story is no exception too. But uh, what
Speaker 1: what I learned in researching for the show is that
Speaker 1: usually periods of success for really any social movement, but
Speaker 1: in this case, the feminist movement is then met in
Speaker 1: the years following with a wave of backlash and at
Speaker 1: least focus on, um, the negative aspects of literally anything
Speaker 1: a woman is doing that is negative. And so my
Speaker 1: read on this with that lens is that this sort
Speaker 1: of came in the kind of fallout of this huge
Speaker 1: success for the feminist movement and by really putting media
Speaker 1: scrutiny on women who were murdering their sexual partners, whether
Speaker 1: they were you know, in Roxy's case, you know, she's
Speaker 1: cheating on her husband or vill mcklly, like she's you know,
Speaker 1: portrayed as kind of this loose woman who's like living
Speaker 1: her own life and so demonizing those people in the
Speaker 1: fall of a big feminist win in women's liberation kind
Speaker 1: of closely matches up with how those things tend to go.
Speaker 1: So I wasn't super surprised to know that. You know,
Speaker 1: it's very I think it would have been very easy
Speaker 1: in the early twenties to be like, well, look, feminism
Speaker 1: fucked everyone, like women are are murderers now, we gave
Speaker 1: women the right to vote and another killing Peo. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was like, that was kind of my my read
Speaker 1: on this period. But I mean, but I you know,
Speaker 1: that's not for sure, but that was either way, it
Speaker 1: seemed like women being murderers was so hot. It was
Speaker 1: so hot at that time, and especially in Chicago specifically
Speaker 1: for some reason. So that was what was going on historically,
Speaker 1: in the Cook County Jail in Chicago in the twenties,
Speaker 1: there was a section called Murderous Row where more than
Speaker 1: a dozen women were like all the coolest, most recent
Speaker 1: woman murderers were all just we're all hanging out being
Speaker 1: detained their wild waiting to stand trial for murder. Most
Speaker 1: of them had been accused of killing their husband or
Speaker 1: lover then. So there were these two women in particular
Speaker 1: who were getting a lot of media attention because they
Speaker 1: were traditionally by Western beauty standards attractive. So this was Bulah, Beulah, Beulah,
Speaker 1: let's go with that, Beulah and On and Belva Gardner.
Speaker 1: These women, they were receiving fan mail, they were giving
Speaker 1: each other makeovers in jail. I thought that was more interesting,
Speaker 1: Like that was something that I wish that they kind
Speaker 1: of focused more on in the adaptations, is the fact that,
Speaker 1: like I feel like in the adaptations, definitely Velma and
Speaker 1: Roxy are put into conflict, which makes sense in the story,
Speaker 1: but it sounds like the people they're based on were
Speaker 1: friends and like close friends, and I kind of am
Speaker 1: more interested in that angle of them being kind of
Speaker 1: allied in this like similar fucked up situation from the beginning.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so you know, all these women were like
Speaker 1: giving each other pedicures and stuff, basically making themselves as
Speaker 1: pretty unpopular as possible, knowing that it was rare for
Speaker 1: the all male juries at the time to convict women,
Speaker 1: especially attractive women, of murder, even though even if there
Speaker 1: was like mountains of evidence against them, I will say, yeah,
Speaker 1: it seems pretty it seems like Beulah and Velva Um
Speaker 1: did it seems certainly. So. Then Maureen Dallas Watkins, who
Speaker 1: was one of the few women reporters at the Chicago
Speaker 1: Tribune at the time, was assigned to report on murderous
Speaker 1: Row and it was assigned to her specifically because her
Speaker 1: editors thought that that particular subject of covering women awaiting
Speaker 1: trial for murder would be too boring for men to
Speaker 1: report on how wrong they were right, So kind of
Speaker 1: with the help of all of this press from Maureen
Speaker 1: Dallas Watkins on Beulah and Velva, they were not convicted
Speaker 1: of murder. They were set free. And they did this
Speaker 1: because they kind of leaned into the defense of having
Speaker 1: been corrupted by jazz music and booze. So that's something
Speaker 1: that we'll talk about a lot um. Yeah, like all
Speaker 1: things that are associated with personal freedom, which was not
Speaker 1: cool for women to be having, right, and then they
Speaker 1: kind of, as we see in the movie, they put
Speaker 1: on these personas of oh, no, I'm reformed, now I'm
Speaker 1: I'm I was a sinner, but now I'm I'm sweet
Speaker 1: and innocent, and I even have a baby on the
Speaker 1: way because this fake pregnancy thing that we see roxy
Speaker 1: Heart do and the movie is based on what Beulah
Speaker 1: and On actually did in real life to try to
Speaker 1: garner sympathy from the public. So I was truly shocked
Speaker 1: at how close they're right. The Villa m Kelly stuff
Speaker 1: seems to be like somewhat fictionalized, like the whole sister
Speaker 1: thing I think is made up, but the yeah, roxy
Speaker 1: Heart and Beulah An are like one and the same,
Speaker 1: like down to like the mechanic husband who wasn't totally
Speaker 1: sure what was going on right right exactly. So I
Speaker 1: have a quote here that I'll share, which, unless you
Speaker 1: have any other additional preliminary context that I think will
Speaker 1: lead into a discussion about kind of what's thematically happening
Speaker 1: in this movie. I think, Well, I think the only
Speaker 1: other thing I wanted to touch on was the fact
Speaker 1: that Marian Dallas Watkins so she like covers the story
Speaker 1: in her twenties and releases it. I thought it was interesting,
Speaker 1: like she the play and the musical, But the play
Speaker 1: started out as like a pretty like heavy handed satire
Speaker 1: because it was a play that was running in Chicago
Speaker 1: about murders that had taken place in Chicago two years prior.
Speaker 1: Like everyone was watching it like it was I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously like an iconic, well crafted story, but it was
Speaker 1: like everyone knew exactly what this was about, and it
Speaker 1: was interesting too. I read a little bit about her life.
Speaker 1: It didn't do a super deep dive, but just how
Speaker 1: her attitude towards her this play kind of changed over
Speaker 1: time where I think she started to feel as time
Speaker 1: went on, and she she like left public life in
Speaker 1: the forties but lived to I think the late sixties,
Speaker 1: early seventies or something like that, but as time went on,
Speaker 1: she sort of didn't want the play to be continued
Speaker 1: to be adapted, even though it was adapted into a
Speaker 1: movie with Ginger Rogers I believe in the forties called
Speaker 1: Roxy Heart. But I think she's she started to feel
Speaker 1: like people are taking the wrong message away from this
Speaker 1: famous play I wrote, and I don't know if I
Speaker 1: really want to keep perpetuating this story. And so Bob
Speaker 1: Fossey approached her in the sixties and was like, I
Speaker 1: need to make this into a fossy Hands musical. It's
Speaker 1: an emergency. You need to let me do it, and
Speaker 1: she said no. And it wasn't until after she died
Speaker 1: that he was able to get the rights. Because I
Speaker 1: think that money plus estate plus not living creator equals
Speaker 1: oh whoopsie, Daisy, I have the rights. So I think
Speaker 1: that it is like, I mean, am I glad that
Speaker 1: Bob Fosse scammed his way into the rights to this
Speaker 1: kind of but it is, but the ethics of that,
Speaker 1: I was like, well, that's kind of sucked up. She said,
Speaker 1: she said no, Bob, she said no, Um, I don't know,
Speaker 1: bizarre right, that was the only other thing that I
Speaker 1: had that I was like, that's something, yeah, and that
Speaker 1: it kind of relates to this quote that I will
Speaker 1: share from an article on sci fi dot com hot
Speaker 1: entitled the real story behind Chicago's Mary murders is roxy
Speaker 1: Heart and vill mkelly. And this is speaking to the
Speaker 1: general atmosphere and what Marine Dallas Watkins was reporting on.
Speaker 1: So quote, the press and the public ate up the gossip,
Speaker 1: the details on dresses, and the sob stories about bad men,
Speaker 1: booze and devilish jazz. Prosecutors began to think you couldn't
Speaker 1: convict a pretty woman in this town. As for Watkins,
Speaker 1: she believed her influence was he to the acquittal of
Speaker 1: both the Mary murderouses, as she felt the pair were
Speaker 1: guilty and likely lying through their teeth. She had mixed
Speaker 1: feelings on that, so she wrote about it in Watkins
Speaker 1: went from reporter to Broadway playwright with Brave Little Women,
Speaker 1: a satirical stage play that would later be retitled Chicago.
Speaker 1: It was she who transformed a non gartner, their victims husbands, lawyers,
Speaker 1: peers and reporters, and two characters like Roxy Heart, Van
Speaker 1: m Kelly, Billy Flynn, Mary Sunshine and Go to Hell Kitty.
Speaker 1: She hoped this dark comedy would highlight how appearances and
Speaker 1: sex appeal had become too important in the justice system. Unquote.
Speaker 1: So I think that's really interesting. I mean that's like
Speaker 1: that the such a bizarre journey for all of this
Speaker 1: to go on, And I think it's an interesting way too.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, the ethics are certainly up
Speaker 1: for debate, because you could argue this is not necessarily
Speaker 1: her story to tell. Well, it's I'm sort of like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it doesn't bother me that much. I
Speaker 1: like it's because it's she's not claiming that it's the
Speaker 1: story of you and on she's you know, changing things.
Speaker 1: She's sad like I don't know, I think that that
Speaker 1: that it's really interesting how this got made and how
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm always interested in like how creator's opinions
Speaker 1: changed towards their own work once it's sort of out
Speaker 1: of their hands. And the fact that like Mary Sunshine
Speaker 1: was I didn't even realize this until I was doing
Speaker 1: this research segment, but that Mary Sunshine was like this
Speaker 1: kind of amalgamation of reporters that Marie and Dallas Watkins
Speaker 1: thought were too easy on and kind of you know,
Speaker 1: eating up this bullshit from clearly guilty people. And also
Speaker 1: like a way of poking at herself, uh, for how
Speaker 1: she covered the story at the time, and almost like
Speaker 1: a way of I don't know, like giving the finger
Speaker 1: to herself in her own work. It's very it's like
Speaker 1: complex ship because Mary Sunshine is noticeably the only woman
Speaker 1: reporting on these cases in the movie. So right, that's
Speaker 1: very funny. Yeah, um, but to me that kind of
Speaker 1: just it's sort of the cornerstone of what this movie
Speaker 1: is about, which is that And this is something that's
Speaker 1: come up on different episodes for different movies that we've
Speaker 1: discussed in the past, but it explores the lengths that
Speaker 1: women sometimes have to go to in order to survive,
Speaker 1: which in some cases means like flaunting their sexuality, capitalizing
Speaker 1: on their quote feminine wiles, but also kind of simultaneously
Speaker 1: demonstrating that they are exactly what society expects of a woman,
Speaker 1: especially at this time where oh my gosh, yes, I
Speaker 1: was seduced by you know, these sinister things like jazz
Speaker 1: and booze and like putting on like that veneer of
Speaker 1: weakness that wasn't actually there. Yeah, and then but but
Speaker 1: but what I've always wanted was a stable home where
Speaker 1: I can darn my husband's socks and iron his shirts
Speaker 1: and and have a baby and take care of the family.
Speaker 1: And like these are all things that are like very
Speaker 1: obviously fabricated because that's what the public will eat up
Speaker 1: because of society's expectations of women. But I guess I'm
Speaker 1: just like, there is commentary on that in the movie.
Speaker 1: I just I don't I don't, well, I don't even
Speaker 1: know really how I feel about it, because I'm like,
Speaker 1: but then, but these women were murderers, so right, like
Speaker 1: it's not so it's like that kind of hard because
Speaker 1: there are there are other examples of this type of thing,
Speaker 1: where like women have to kind of exploit societal expectations
Speaker 1: or kind of exploit their own sexuality to survive because
Speaker 1: they have no other choice. But they are otherwise, you know,
Speaker 1: morally upstanding people and not murderers kind of thing. But
Speaker 1: I'm just like, well, these people are also they're doing that,
Speaker 1: but then they're also murderers, so they're a little harder
Speaker 1: to sympathize with. But again I'm still rooting for them.
Speaker 1: So it's complicated. I have complicated feelings about it. It's
Speaker 1: that's what And I'm like, here I am in my
Speaker 1: little Chicago two thousand two cape, but like, yeah, and
Speaker 1: I feel like what saves it and and the fact
Speaker 1: that the source material was written by a woman tract
Speaker 1: for me for kind of this reason where what saves
Speaker 1: this for me is that it's based on something that
Speaker 1: truly happened, and so it's not it's not really I
Speaker 1: mean it is, it's not really a more reality tail
Speaker 1: because it is kind of just like satire on something
Speaker 1: that was happening at this time. And everyone in this
Speaker 1: is terrible, Like there's no one of any gender in
Speaker 1: this movie, except for some people would argue Amos and
Speaker 1: the woman what is her name in Katerina who is
Speaker 1: truly profoundly innocent, Like those are the only characters that
Speaker 1: you can you know freely. And I think Katerina is
Speaker 1: kind of like she's the character you can freely empathize
Speaker 1: with because she didn't do anything and she's being eaten
Speaker 1: up for because of this language barrier, because she's not
Speaker 1: really able to defend herself, and because she doesn't have
Speaker 1: any money, and so it's like that is like the
Speaker 1: purity character, but everyone else fucking sucks, and it's like
Speaker 1: doing what they need to do to get from point
Speaker 1: A to point B, and it's not like commendable behavior
Speaker 1: at all. And I don't think that the movie is
Speaker 1: like endorsing the behavior either, Like I I do appreciate
Speaker 1: that the movie, I don't like, you can't help but
Speaker 1: root for Roxy and Velment at different points even though
Speaker 1: you're like, they definitely did it, but the way that
Speaker 1: they have to navigate get it, because it's like, first
Speaker 1: of all, you need to consider why did they do
Speaker 1: it and how you know, completely inhospitable. And I don't
Speaker 1: even think that this is something that Maureen Dallas Watkins
Speaker 1: would even agree with because she seems to feel bad
Speaker 1: that she kind of like built up their personas and
Speaker 1: the way that she did, and clearly wasn't happy that
Speaker 1: they got away with murder. But but it's like contextually,
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, why would women kill at this time?
Speaker 1: And whatever? There's a bajillion documentaries and podcasts about that
Speaker 1: exact subject. But both Roxy and Velma's and and I mean,
Speaker 1: the whole cell blocked Tango number, with the exception of
Speaker 1: the one person who is innocent, is all about like
Speaker 1: women trying to like live their life the way they
Speaker 1: want to, being thwarted or deceived or lied to by
Speaker 1: men who feel entitled to their bodies or their time
Speaker 1: or their marriage or whatever it is, and then killing them.
Speaker 1: Like so, I feel like the context is very clear
Speaker 1: of like it's not endorsing murder, but it is telling you, like,
Speaker 1: this is a period of time where I mean, it's like,
Speaker 1: what options does Roxy have if if her dream is
Speaker 1: to be a famous cabaret singer but she's got no money,
Speaker 1: just got to vote a couple of years ago, and
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, what are her options? I don't know?
Speaker 1: And the same goes for really, I mean every woman
Speaker 1: in the in the story and I in what I
Speaker 1: what I really wish is that because in Cell Block Tango,
Speaker 1: and I think historically in the play as well, there
Speaker 1: are black women and women of color included in the cast,
Speaker 1: but you don't get to spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: with them, and you don't get to examine how there
Speaker 1: is I think that there is pretty solid commentary in
Speaker 1: this story of white women weaponizing how white women were
Speaker 1: viewed at this time. They're weaponizing white fragility by the
Speaker 1: bursting into tears and just the things that you would
Speaker 1: commonly associate with, you know, traditionally attractive white girls at
Speaker 1: this time. But you don't really get to see the
Speaker 1: other side of that and how, you know, how would
Speaker 1: a black woman put on murderous row in Chicago be treated?
Speaker 1: You would imagine quite differently. And I feel like there's there.
Speaker 1: It sucks because there's I think that there's room for
Speaker 1: more of those stories, especially you have. Do you remember
Speaker 1: the pop star Maya, She's in this movie. I remember
Speaker 1: Maya Maya. We were all there. I hope she's well,
Speaker 1: I don't really know what she's enough to but but
Speaker 1: you know, it's I don't know what my original point was.
Speaker 1: I just I think that you are given the context
Speaker 1: for why they're murdering without saying, hey, go out there
Speaker 1: and murder someone, which is a difficult line to toe,
Speaker 1: but I feel like the movie does it pretty well.
Speaker 1: Sure well, that's my main criticism of the movie, where
Speaker 1: there is this focus on these attractive white women because
Speaker 1: that was the focus of what the press and the
Speaker 1: public and what they were obsessed with at the time
Speaker 1: and still now like and still now yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: the president has long been set for this. I would
Speaker 1: have liked to have seen and maybe were this to
Speaker 1: be adapted again today, we would get more focus on
Speaker 1: the women of color who were on murderous row, who
Speaker 1: again we see in the movie, but it's not explored
Speaker 1: at all. It's not explored at all. Okay, So there's
Speaker 1: there's one woman who her story is that she stabbed
Speaker 1: her jealous husband ten times because in like a bit
Speaker 1: of jealous rage, he was like, you're screwing the milkman.
Speaker 1: He ran into her knife. He ran into her knife
Speaker 1: ten times. That character is played by Deirdre Goodwin Um.
Speaker 1: And then there's the character who is played by Maya,
Speaker 1: who had murdered a lover because he cheated on her.
Speaker 1: Even within that song, those little snippets of their story
Speaker 1: take up less screen time than yes, the white women's
Speaker 1: um so we get less about them. So I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: who are these women? Is there? Are they based on
Speaker 1: real women who were on Murderous Row during this time.
Speaker 1: I tried as hard as I could to find some
Speaker 1: information about that, but every article I found, which was
Speaker 1: you know, a lot a lot has been written about this,
Speaker 1: those articles, even ones that are written you know, within
Speaker 1: the past few years, still only focus on Beulah and Belva, Right,
Speaker 1: So I like couldn't find any information about who were
Speaker 1: the other women on Murderous Row? Were there women of
Speaker 1: color present, what were their stories, what were their names,
Speaker 1: what were their crimes and situations? So I was just
Speaker 1: disappointed that there is just not a lot of information
Speaker 1: on that out there, probably because good records were not
Speaker 1: kept at the time about it, or if they were kept,
Speaker 1: they weren't widely reported on in the same way that
Speaker 1: these stories with Yeah, I totally agree, and I think
Speaker 1: that that also connects back to what we were talking
Speaker 1: about earlier, where Mama Morton is this incredibly dynamic, awesome character,
Speaker 1: and we don't know anything about her back story, which
Speaker 1: is like such a frustrating and persistent trope surrounding black
Speaker 1: characters in a supporting cast, where it's like, why do
Speaker 1: we never see their back stories? And it's because these
Speaker 1: majority white writers and directors and creators, And I mean,
Speaker 1: this story from its or and all the way down
Speaker 1: is controlled by white people. They're not caring enough, you know.
Speaker 1: And and so I totally agree with you, and I
Speaker 1: think that it's doubly shitty and a big missed opportunity.
Speaker 1: First because clearly there should be people of color who
Speaker 1: are involved behind the camera with projects like these, and
Speaker 1: certainly we're not to any significant degree for this movie.
Speaker 1: But also because with Velmat and Roxy, you see like
Speaker 1: a master class in weaponizing white fragility, which would have
Speaker 1: made it all the more, you know, impactful to the
Speaker 1: story too, to really like call that out for what
Speaker 1: it is, because I feel like we can watch this
Speaker 1: now and be like, oh, that is like a classic
Speaker 1: white fragility thing for white women specifically to do in
Speaker 1: these situations, but it's more characterised. I think at the
Speaker 1: time I was more characterized. Is this is something women do,
Speaker 1: and not specifically white women who are traditionally attractive. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it's shitty because the talent is
Speaker 1: obviously there and the story has room for it. And
Speaker 1: you know, all you need is a fucking halfway decent
Speaker 1: archival researcher, and these stories exist. So where are they?
Speaker 1: You know, where are they? There were even so I
Speaker 1: not to brag or anything. Was a guest on a
Speaker 1: podcast entitled Women Who Kill, hosted by a friend of
Speaker 1: the cast, Kai Choice. My episode was on a serial
Speaker 1: killer named Tilly Climax, a k Mrs blue Beard, who
Speaker 1: was living in Chicago in the nine twenties. Um, I
Speaker 1: think her crimes were committed like two years before Beulah
Speaker 1: and Belva were murdering their people. Yeah, she was ahead
Speaker 1: of the curve. She came from a poor Polish immigrant background.
Speaker 1: She was not considered attractive, which the papers commented on
Speaker 1: when they were telling her story. Like, so basically anyone
Speaker 1: who wasn't like a middle class or upper middle class,
Speaker 1: conventionally attractive white woman was, like I guess, demonized in
Speaker 1: the way you would expect a murderer to be demonized.
Speaker 1: By the press. But because these two women were again
Speaker 1: considered attractive and came from backgrounds that you know, allowed
Speaker 1: them some privilege, they just exploited that and left everyone
Speaker 1: else in the dust. Basically, there's a first of all,
Speaker 1: that story is wild. I'm gonna listen to that. That
Speaker 1: and and I love Kaispot. Yes, it's really good. It's
Speaker 1: one of my favorite uh walking pods. Um, I have
Speaker 1: kind of a reverse story to that that. I wasn't
Speaker 1: able to super confirm this, but it does seem like
Speaker 1: the sorry her name is Katerina in the movie The Hungary,
Speaker 1: the young Hungarian woman was hung, So it seems like
Speaker 1: that story um was at least pulled in part with
Speaker 1: a very different ending from a woman named Sabella Nitti,
Speaker 1: who was an Italian immigrant who didn't speak a lot
Speaker 1: of English and much like you were just saying, she
Speaker 1: was not considered traditionally attractive. This was also and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, deep in the hole on in Kathy
Speaker 1: podcast research, so whatever. At this time, you know, recent immigrants,
Speaker 1: even if they were white, were often considered unattractive in
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and would be kind of demonized for
Speaker 1: not having literally like wasp feet er. Anything that wasn't
Speaker 1: wasp was not attractive. So Sibella Ninti was an Italian
Speaker 1: emigrant who was accused of the murder of her missing
Speaker 1: husband and she it doesn't seem like she did it.
Speaker 1: There was no evidence, she had no motive, there was
Speaker 1: no proof. But it was the kind of case where
Speaker 1: it's like these prosecutors need to win, so we're going
Speaker 1: to and she she got sentenced to death. She doesn't
Speaker 1: end up getting executed though, because she gets a lawyer
Speaker 1: kind of comes to her rescue and saves her by
Speaker 1: giving her a makeover because she was characterized in the process. Look,
Speaker 1: you know, she's not attractive, she she doesn't speak English.
Speaker 1: You have all this all this stuff that is just
Speaker 1: like aggressively mothering her in order to convict her of
Speaker 1: a crime she didn't commit. And she's saved by a
Speaker 1: makeover and being and so that, I mean it feels
Speaker 1: super duper Billy Flynn of just like bat your eyes
Speaker 1: at the jury. They're not smart enough to you know,
Speaker 1: if if you look the right way and you act
Speaker 1: the right way, you can manipulate their behavior, which is
Speaker 1: like I don't know, I mean like like we've been
Speaker 1: talking about. That's a really complicated topic because it's not
Speaker 1: like people should be able to get away with murder necessarily, right, Um,
Speaker 1: I think unless there's an abuser involved, and then I
Speaker 1: don't really care. But um, but but but but the
Speaker 1: fact that it's there are so many real life examples
Speaker 1: from that era of that working, and so it's like, well,
Speaker 1: how toxic does a culture have to be to literally
Speaker 1: be able to get away with murder pretty reliably and
Speaker 1: consistently as long as you look the part like and that,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that is something that I think this, um,
Speaker 1: this story does pretty well, although I do agree that
Speaker 1: it's not it doesn't go far enough in terms of
Speaker 1: like showing different women's stories at all. Um. I didn't
Speaker 1: want to say really quickly. This is unfortunately the second
Speaker 1: time this year we have to talk about this. But
Speaker 1: speaking of looking the part, this is yet another movie
Speaker 1: that Renee Zellweger does a fabulous job in where so
Speaker 1: much of the coverage that she got around the time
Speaker 1: of this movie was hyper focused on her body. We
Speaker 1: we talked about this in our Bridget Jones episode earlier
Speaker 1: this year for the opposite reason, where Renee Zellweger. I
Speaker 1: feel like I don't. I mean, to some degree, it
Speaker 1: just seems like unlucky timing on her part. But she
Speaker 1: has just been so aggressively scrutinized for every part of
Speaker 1: her body. It feels like at some point where during
Speaker 1: the early two thousands, it was very much a focus
Speaker 1: on her weight, because she had a normal body when
Speaker 1: she played Bridget Jones, but everyone called her fat. She
Speaker 1: lost weight to play Roxy Heart and everyone said she
Speaker 1: looked sick, and no matter what she said herself about
Speaker 1: how she felt about her body and how she didn't
Speaker 1: like having her body commented on, like, no one listened,
Speaker 1: And so I wanted to just share there there is
Speaker 1: a whole a very well sourced Vulture article that came
Speaker 1: out a couple of years called a history of people
Speaker 1: commenting on Rene's Alwiger's face, because that was what it
Speaker 1: became later, people aggressively scrutinizing her plastic surgery, which is
Speaker 1: just let her list the woman has two oscars? Can
Speaker 1: you chill out? Like anyways? Um, I wanted to share
Speaker 1: this quote from her. This is from around two thousand
Speaker 1: and one, when she was playing Bridget Jones. She said
Speaker 1: quote when the film was coming out, the question I
Speaker 1: was asked the most was regarding my weight. I was
Speaker 1: followed around Heathrow Airport by a guy who wanted to
Speaker 1: take pictures of my backside. I don't understand the obsession.
Speaker 1: And then on the flip side, because Bridget Jones came
Speaker 1: out in two thousand one, Chicago came out in two
Speaker 1: thousand two, and Rene's aller. I mean, she's very thin
Speaker 1: in this movie, and and people were like, in the
Speaker 1: reviews for this movie, people were saying, you know, she's
Speaker 1: shockingly gaunt, and she's setting a dangerous precedent and all
Speaker 1: this stuff, and no one ever asked her how she
Speaker 1: felt about it. It was just like baseless comments and whatever.
Speaker 1: And so she, you know, disputed the claims that she
Speaker 1: was unhealthily thin at the time. And it's just, I
Speaker 1: don't know, It's just another example of like, she gave
Speaker 1: an incredible performance, Like what is your like, shut the
Speaker 1: funk up, man, truly, So I just wanted to uh
Speaker 1: say that again, just leave Renee alone. She does a
Speaker 1: good job, she seems like a good person, she's very talented,
Speaker 1: she's got two oscars. Just let her. Just let her chill.
Speaker 1: She has like a I heard I learned this on
Speaker 1: who Weekly as well. She has a Normi boyfriend right
Speaker 1: now and they're just hanging out on balconies together like
Speaker 1: good for Renee them love it. It's is this irony
Speaker 1: or I'm not sure how to classify this, but like
Speaker 1: the movie Chicago being about how women's appearance is so
Speaker 1: heavily commented on and publicized and like the topic of
Speaker 1: so much press. Again that's one of the main components
Speaker 1: of this movie. And then for a bunch of people
Speaker 1: to turn around and then do that very thing to
Speaker 1: the actor's body, right like do you not do you?
Speaker 1: Do you hear yourself? It's I'm like, maybe Marie and
Speaker 1: Dallas Watkins was right, maybe as She's like, people clearly
Speaker 1: aren't getting what I'm trying to say here because it's
Speaker 1: like the same breath. No one's learned a damn thing
Speaker 1: in eighty years. Yeah, yeah, It's like and unfortunately watching
Speaker 1: I mean these murder cases or nearly a hundred years
Speaker 1: old at this point, and we see this same dynamic
Speaker 1: exists between the press and the public and the spectacle
Speaker 1: like it's still alive and well, and like with the
Speaker 1: exception of like the communication channels basically unaltered, which is
Speaker 1: so depressing, and I'm like, God of all its it
Speaker 1: sucks that this is a timeless story, but it like
Speaker 1: kind of is. Yeah, I wanted to shut out when,
Speaker 1: I mean this shout out is not the correct thing here,
Speaker 1: but just when when last sort of point on how
Speaker 1: whiteness and traditional attractiveness is clearly weaponized in this story.
Speaker 1: The phrase that came to mind and I had to
Speaker 1: sort of go back in my head and be like,
Speaker 1: where did I hear this? Where did this come from?
Speaker 1: Was the two pretty for prison? Have you heard that
Speaker 1: phrase before? I don't think I have. It's a phrase
Speaker 1: that I couldn't remember when I when I first heard it,
Speaker 1: and I sort of basically it ties into I think
Speaker 1: you see it very present in Roxy's behavior, where she's like,
Speaker 1: you can't sentence me to death. I can't be in prison.
Speaker 1: I'm too pretty for prison. And it's it's this very
Speaker 1: given that Roxy is a murderer. I'm not pro prison
Speaker 1: at all, but it's given that she's a murderer. You know,
Speaker 1: she's trying to get away with it on the basis
Speaker 1: of being traditionally attractive, white woman. Right, And so the
Speaker 1: too pretty for prison phrase comes from two thousand and five.
Speaker 1: It's based on a case that is absolutely horrific and
Speaker 1: I don't want to rehash it here, but it essentially
Speaker 1: comes down to a female teacher who sexually abused a student,
Speaker 1: and while on trial, that was the phrase that was
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was evoked in the courtroom,
Speaker 1: but that was the phrase that was connected to this case.
Speaker 1: But all that to say, like Chicago is based on
Speaker 1: cases from this phrase too pretty for prison is it
Speaker 1: was a ascribed to similar behavior that was happening eighty
Speaker 1: years later, like it's it's depressing, that's some real Karen ship, Yes, Karen.
Speaker 1: And then something you know, it's white privilege. It's hot privilege.
Speaker 1: What's the phrase for that? You know what? I think? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't talk about hot privilege enough. I think as
Speaker 1: a as a culture it is discussed. I don't know
Speaker 1: that we've we've discussed it on the show in depth,
Speaker 1: but it definitely does seem like it's at play in
Speaker 1: this story. Yeah, it is weird because, like, well, it
Speaker 1: also kind of speaks to the one of the double
Speaker 1: standards that are voisted on women, where You're expected to
Speaker 1: be extremely attractive and really sexy, but not too sexy
Speaker 1: because you don't want anyone to think you're a slut.
Speaker 1: Like the exact line that they're towing here is like right,
Speaker 1: so it's like you like, you have you have to like,
Speaker 1: you know, look a certain way and adhere to every
Speaker 1: Western standard of beauty. But you also have to be
Speaker 1: a loyal and devoted wife, and you have to be
Speaker 1: gregnant with a baby and be ready to make a
Speaker 1: home for your husband and for your children, and to
Speaker 1: iron his shirts and to do all that stuff. And that,
Speaker 1: to me is like the most effective thing that this
Speaker 1: movie accomplishes in terms of just like pointing that out,
Speaker 1: making that commentary. Similarly like the idea of oh, these
Speaker 1: these delicate women were seduced by these evil forces of
Speaker 1: of such evil things as a genre of music and alcohol,
Speaker 1: which yeah, just again the these such rigid gender roles
Speaker 1: and and standard that are placed on women in terms
Speaker 1: of like you can never misbehave, you can never drink
Speaker 1: an alcohol. You have to also be really pretty and attractive,
Speaker 1: but you only can have eyes for your husband, and
Speaker 1: just like all of these standards, it's like the classic
Speaker 1: it's an impossible bar to clear. So many of their
Speaker 1: expectations are at odds with each other because it's to
Speaker 1: be demure, but you also have to be wildly sexy,
Speaker 1: and depending on the situation, you can be punished for
Speaker 1: being either of those things. And right and how yeah
Speaker 1: like and how hot I mean whatever, like being traditionally attractive. Like.
Speaker 1: There's sides to that coin as well, where it's it's
Speaker 1: I think that I mean. Obviously, in some of the
Speaker 1: cases we just described, women who are considered to not
Speaker 1: be attractive, apparently you can just kill them, uh for
Speaker 1: not doing murders. Um, that's an oversimplification. But but then
Speaker 1: on the other side, it's you know, women who do
Speaker 1: kind of fall into that traditionally attractive whatever are often
Speaker 1: hyper sexualized against their will and harassed, and so it's just, um,
Speaker 1: it's impossible. There's just so many ways to lose in
Speaker 1: this world. Uh, it's interesting. I just learned something that
Speaker 1: maybe smile please sure, sorry please still yelling? Um, well,
Speaker 1: he's wishing you happy birthday. He's like, I love you, mama. Anyways.
Speaker 1: Jerry or Bach played Billy Flynn in the original Broadway
Speaker 1: production How Fun Is That? In the goodness and Cheetah
Speaker 1: Rivera played Velma Kelly like icons icons. So I was
Speaker 1: just happy to learn that Jerry Orbach and Richard Gear
Speaker 1: played the same part. I like that. I'd like that too. Um,
Speaker 1: Richard Gear kills it as Billy Flynn. He really is amazing,
Speaker 1: And that's really him tap dancing. That's really him tap dance. Yes,
Speaker 1: I watched all the featurettes and he said it was
Speaker 1: kind of funny because it was like he had sung.
Speaker 1: He he like had sung before. Um, and so, and
Speaker 1: I think that he and John c Riley were I
Speaker 1: think the main members of the cast that didn't have
Speaker 1: dance training that needed to dance, and they both tried
Speaker 1: so hard, and they both were talking about how they're
Speaker 1: like it's intimidating being in the same room with Rob
Speaker 1: Marshall he was in Cats and I can't even tap
Speaker 1: and like all this stuff. And then there's videos of
Speaker 1: like Rob Marshall like taking it really slow with John
Speaker 1: c Riley and like it's just such wholesome footage. Um,
Speaker 1: that's so. I don't know. I just love when choreographers
Speaker 1: direct because it's like when you once you see like
Speaker 1: footage of a choreographer directing a musical movie. You're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: how else would you even do that? Like what you're
Speaker 1: just gonna be like, You're like, if you can't do
Speaker 1: it yourself, don't tell me to do it. But Rob Marshall,
Speaker 1: like he's fucking on it. He's doing all that jazz
Speaker 1: right next to Katherine's Ada Jones, And it's exciting that
Speaker 1: there is like a whole half hour making of documentary
Speaker 1: that's on YouTube as well that if you're a Chicago head,
Speaker 1: I'd recommend it because it's just such a blast. Who
Speaker 1: do you think Rob Marshall played in Cats when he
Speaker 1: got injured? Do you think it was like Mr Mustaphiles
Speaker 1: or rum tum Tugger? Thanks the question, which of the
Speaker 1: Cats is doing the kind of movement? I mean, they're
Speaker 1: all kind of doing wild movements, but like, who is
Speaker 1: most likely to herniate a disc? I feel like that's
Speaker 1: some rum tum Tugger ship to be herniating a whole disk.
Speaker 1: Who's your favorite one again? With the pants and the suspender?
Speaker 1: My god, skin Ble Shanks. I feel like it could
Speaker 1: have Marshall. Skimble Shanks would have done a good Skimble Shanks.
Speaker 1: I wonder it doesn't his His Wikipedia page is very
Speaker 1: vague about it. They're just like he was in Cats
Speaker 1: and herniated a desk. No, we're not taking any more
Speaker 1: questions at this time. We need more information. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: he was a Jelical I need more info which one,
Speaker 1: which one? It matters which jelical cat was he though
Speaker 1: he could he could have been Monchu Strap. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's a lot of cats that are
Speaker 1: at high risk for herniating a disk. Uh, So it
Speaker 1: doesn't really it's so funny. It's like, oh, members of
Speaker 1: the Cats, cats that could have her needed a disk.
Speaker 1: That really doesn't narrow it down at all. They're all
Speaker 1: over the place. Um do anything else for this movie,
Speaker 1: I mean, we touched on it briefly, but just the
Speaker 1: relationship between Roxy and Velma being highly antagonistic for most,
Speaker 1: if not all, of the movie, because even at the
Speaker 1: end when they are working together, we yeah, I get
Speaker 1: why they don't like each other, right, yeah, because well,
Speaker 1: so like Velma is mean to Roxy at first for
Speaker 1: what appears to be a petty reason. She's well, I
Speaker 1: don't even know, it's maybe it's not even any reason.
Speaker 1: She's just mean to her because she's like the newbie there.
Speaker 1: Unless I'm misreading or misremembering something, I don't think you are. No,
Speaker 1: I think that it's it's I was really interested to
Speaker 1: learn that the two, like the too real life people,
Speaker 1: seemed to get along just fine, because it seems like
Speaker 1: the the logic that this story is subscribing to. And
Speaker 1: maybe I'm making too many excuses for it. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like they are just our two female leads are
Speaker 1: being put at odds the way I guess I I
Speaker 1: had like solidified it in my head over the years
Speaker 1: that maybe I need to question a little bit, But
Speaker 1: like was that I don't know the the reason that
Speaker 1: women are often put in these antagonistic situations, and the
Speaker 1: internal logic of this story is there's only room for
Speaker 1: one woman in the headlines at a time, and so
Speaker 1: it's like this, it almost feels like they're viewing it
Speaker 1: as a competition, and like why would I you know,
Speaker 1: it's almost like reality show logic of like I didn't
Speaker 1: come here to make friends. I came here to be
Speaker 1: the most famous murderer ever or whatever. That was kind
Speaker 1: of but it was like, but that's not even what
Speaker 1: happened in real life, Like that was what happened in
Speaker 1: real life, I would sort of let it go. But
Speaker 1: that's not so why add that in Nor is it
Speaker 1: what happens at the very beginning of their antagonistic relationship.
Speaker 1: I could maybe understand if right when Roxy got there
Speaker 1: and she was like already the hottest, like the talk
Speaker 1: of the town kind of thing, right, she's not at first,
Speaker 1: where then Velma would feel threatened and that would motivate
Speaker 1: her being cruel to Roxy. But that's not what happens.
Speaker 1: Roxy doesn't take Velma's spotlight until later. So it first
Speaker 1: Velma is mean to Roxy for no reason, and when
Speaker 1: Roxy is like mean back, that does seem more motivated,
Speaker 1: because that's sort of like a retaliation thing, like, well,
Speaker 1: you were mean to me, I'm going to be mean
Speaker 1: to you now. But you're right, Yeah, the beginning is
Speaker 1: not very motivated by much. Yeah, and then they continue
Speaker 1: to not get along. But then it's all just it's
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying in terms of because we
Speaker 1: you know, we've we've talked about this to a lot
Speaker 1: where like especially when men right women being extremely antagonistic
Speaker 1: and like petty to each other, they never consider the
Speaker 1: context of why that would be because if that does happen,
Speaker 1: the context is usually well, women are only afforded so
Speaker 1: many spaces or our spots or there's only room for
Speaker 1: one woman. So women do feel like they have to
Speaker 1: be competitive and antagonistic toward each other too, again like
Speaker 1: just secure their survival. But that isn't what's happening it right,
Speaker 1: it does. It does become that way with because yeah,
Speaker 1: like Roxy takes Vilma's spotlight and then so they're kind
Speaker 1: of like constantly battling for the spotlight. And then when
Speaker 1: when the Roxy starts like steal Velma's like court deceptions
Speaker 1: or whatever, like the garter and the enemy, Like I
Speaker 1: get why they have become enemies. But but that is
Speaker 1: a good point that it's not super motivated, especially because
Speaker 1: Velma is like who Roxy wants to be at the beginning,
Speaker 1: and you do see like, yeah, I mean I think
Speaker 1: the Velma is like being I don't know, I mean
Speaker 1: I think there's like there's multiple ways to look at
Speaker 1: it where it's like, yeah, Velma is kind of is
Speaker 1: like pretty arrogant at the beginning of the story because
Speaker 1: she is the famous one at the beginning of the story,
Speaker 1: and why would I talk to you, I'm the famous one,
Speaker 1: which Roxy then does the exact same thing to her
Speaker 1: later on. It doesn't feel good. That's sort of Velma's
Speaker 1: arc of like this is very temporary, and I am
Speaker 1: a fool. Well if I think that, you know, I
Speaker 1: can just you know, be a famous murderer forever. So
Speaker 1: and I and I do like how it ends, because
Speaker 1: in real life it's like kind of a bummer. I think,
Speaker 1: like Beulah died of like tuberculosis, tuberculosis like pretty soon
Speaker 1: after getting like so that I'm glad that they didn't
Speaker 1: do that, but I do, like, I mean, just to
Speaker 1: tie up the story, how they end up working together
Speaker 1: and realizing that they it's like they're still terrible people, right,
Speaker 1: like they're still murderers, but but that they're stronger as
Speaker 1: a unit than they were separately, and that they needed
Speaker 1: to just in the way. That's like the world very
Speaker 1: much wanted to forget them and move on to the
Speaker 1: next thing, and they had to find a way to
Speaker 1: remain relevant so they could continue to live the kinds
Speaker 1: of lives they wanted to live. Where it was like,
Speaker 1: you know, Roxy could have gone back with Amos, Velma
Speaker 1: could have settled down and and you know, lined up
Speaker 1: with the societal expectations of the time. Neither of them
Speaker 1: want that, and so they find a way to put
Speaker 1: their differences aside and make that happen for themselves. And
Speaker 1: I think that that is like interesting. It doesn't make
Speaker 1: it noble and necessarily because they still fucking suck, But
Speaker 1: I but I like and and then the end, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's almost like a little ham fisted watching it now,
Speaker 1: but we're like, Roxy's like, this couldn't have happened without you,
Speaker 1: because it's like, yeah, no one would give a shit
Speaker 1: about them, if, you know, if the media circus wasn't
Speaker 1: the way that it is. So I don't know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: their relationship, I think that I think that the story
Speaker 1: would be kind of generally improved and would work. Could
Speaker 1: you could you could say the exact same things that
Speaker 1: this story is trying to say and have them get
Speaker 1: along and so adding in that conflict even if, like
Speaker 1: you're saying, like even if they I don't know, betray
Speaker 1: each other and piss each other off later, which makes
Speaker 1: sense in the context of the story in the in
Speaker 1: the historical period, seeing them get along, I don't think
Speaker 1: you lose anything And if in fact, it might even
Speaker 1: raise this stakes if they start as friends and then
Speaker 1: it's like this media circus of well, only one of
Speaker 1: you can be famous enough to not be convicted of murder,
Speaker 1: Like that's higher stakes. It doesn't seem like Roxy has
Speaker 1: any female friends in her life, and it seems like
Speaker 1: Velma's only friend she killed because that was her sister,
Speaker 1: and so there's I was like, Okay, maybe that is
Speaker 1: actually a stronger story choice, because then you're not just
Speaker 1: losing you know, your your life, You're losing your only friend,
Speaker 1: your friend. That's basically the plot of All About Eve,
Speaker 1: where that's true. They start out on good terms and
Speaker 1: then I don't even remember the character's names now, but
Speaker 1: one of them starts to get jealous of the other one,
Speaker 1: and then the start well, one of them is definitely Eve.
Speaker 1: It's the one that isn't Bettie Davis, right, Um, And
Speaker 1: I just don't remember which one is Eve? Is Eve
Speaker 1: Bettie Davis or she was the younger woman? Okay, right,
Speaker 1: you're right, I'm butchering remembering. But I love that movie,
Speaker 1: and yet I don't know what the characters ain't are?
Speaker 1: Um story of my life? But yeah, I mean that
Speaker 1: now that we're kind of talking that through, that would
Speaker 1: be a more interesting choice. And then it would, and
Speaker 1: then you can keep the ending as is and have
Speaker 1: them reconcile and get that friendship back by being like, oh,
Speaker 1: that media circus was bullshit. Let's take this on the
Speaker 1: road and make money off of all these losers who
Speaker 1: vaguely remember that we've murdered people. Like, yeah, whatever, that
Speaker 1: rocks fine. I like that better. Yeah, this just felt
Speaker 1: like the writer was like, it's a movie, we have
Speaker 1: to throw more tension in it. Where could a source
Speaker 1: of tension be? Oh, of course between two women, because
Speaker 1: women are petty and jealous and bitter, right, And it's
Speaker 1: not like this story lax tension, like like there's kind
Speaker 1: of no need for it. It's like there's an incredible
Speaker 1: amount of tension between Roxy and basically everyone that she's
Speaker 1: ever met, because she's a pretty selfish and abrasive person.
Speaker 1: Um that said, and I mean it's again, it's like
Speaker 1: she's such a tough character because she fucking sucks. But
Speaker 1: like you're like, okay, you know, to an extent, I
Speaker 1: get it, and I do like like the moment where
Speaker 1: Roxy is it works against her, but she's so quick
Speaker 1: to call out Billy Flynn for being a Charlatan asshole,
Speaker 1: and it blows up in her face. But it is
Speaker 1: kind of cathartic to see, you know, someone who's so
Speaker 1: clearly in it for money and cloud and doesn't actually
Speaker 1: care about the women that he's defending, to see her
Speaker 1: just be like, what fuck you? You know you're fired?
Speaker 1: I don't know, um speaking of people who are in
Speaker 1: it for the money, I thought, because I didn't super
Speaker 1: remember this movie until going back to prep for this episode,
Speaker 1: Mama Morton, she is sort of presented at first as
Speaker 1: like a big hard ass, and I thought, oh, I
Speaker 1: wonder if there's going to be a lot of antagonism
Speaker 1: between her and the prisoners, because that also would have
Speaker 1: felt like a unexpected choice to introduce tension into the situation.
Speaker 1: But I was kind of surprised that there isn't much
Speaker 1: tension there. Like she at first she's like, oh, something
Speaker 1: bothering you? Well, I don't give a ship. Also, I
Speaker 1: love money. But then after that, like she seems pretty
Speaker 1: willing to help the people who have money, so she's
Speaker 1: like a capitalist, and we don't love to see that
Speaker 1: super capitalist feel like she I mean, I feel like
Speaker 1: she's just kind of a stand in for like, I'm
Speaker 1: on the side of whoever is paying me. She's she's
Speaker 1: not really on the side of the prison industrial complex
Speaker 1: because she's accepting money from murderers, but she'll take a
Speaker 1: check from the prison industrial complex. Like yeah, she's just
Speaker 1: like a she she's lawless. It's interesting that they cast
Speaker 1: a black woman in that role. I agree, considering the
Speaker 1: prison industrial complex disproportionate effects and abuses black people. So
Speaker 1: that was confusing. Yeah, I do think that it is
Speaker 1: uh telling and bizarre. I mean, it's it's what I mean,
Speaker 1: It's like, can I picture anyone in this movie except
Speaker 1: Queen Latifa in this role? I know, like she's fucking incredible.
Speaker 1: And what is interesting based on a rapid google we
Speaker 1: just paused the podcast to do that this role was
Speaker 1: generally played by white women up until Queen Latifa was
Speaker 1: cast in this role, and since then the role is
Speaker 1: generally played by black women. I believe that the same
Speaker 1: actress has been playing Mom and Morton on Broadway for
Speaker 1: some time. Yeah, a famous black Broadway actress. I don't
Speaker 1: know Broadway actresses. I'm sorry, um, but but all that
Speaker 1: to say yeah, that, uh, that doesn't seem to be
Speaker 1: in the d n A of the part. But then gradually,
Speaker 1: because of Queen Latifa's casting and performance, became kind of
Speaker 1: integral to the part. Yeah. As of so for the
Speaker 1: last ten years or so, Mom and Morton has been
Speaker 1: played by black actresses on Broadway. Um, yeah, not an
Speaker 1: ideal part too, right, I mean, I love Queen Latifa.
Speaker 1: She steals every scene she's in that part where like good,
Speaker 1: she's telling Roxy, oh you're we're actually taking you to
Speaker 1: the special section murderous row, and then Roxy's like, oh
Speaker 1: is that nicer? And then it was a look to Moreton,
Speaker 1: like looks over her shoulder to like a prison guard
Speaker 1: or something, and it's just like this bitch basically right
Speaker 1: and there. I mean, I yeah, I do as far
Speaker 1: as that character goes, and I think that your point
Speaker 1: is extremely valid. But her like lawlessness of like she
Speaker 1: buys into the Roxy hype, but then the second it's
Speaker 1: not working in her favor anymore, she's like the blonde
Speaker 1: wig is in the trash and you know, her allegiances
Speaker 1: with whoever can make her the most money. Yeah, so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: do you have anything else? I think that is this
Speaker 1: movie does pass the Bechtel test. I'm sure of it. Yes, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's super does They're often they're often talking about killing men,
Speaker 1: but for us that has the test. But but even
Speaker 1: without it, I mean, it does pass plenty of times,
Speaker 1: between Velmot and Roxy, between Roxy and Mama Morton, between
Speaker 1: Velmot and Mama Morton, between Um. Actually there's a good question.
Speaker 1: I don't know how many of the prisoners are actually named.
Speaker 1: I don't think that many. Yeah, if any, because I'm
Speaker 1: racking my brain and I don't know if we get
Speaker 1: names for an even not let me fact check that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's possible that it exists in the state.
Speaker 1: I don't know in terms of adaptation, but I don't
Speaker 1: believe you learn their names in the um in the movie.
Speaker 1: You know so. But but that said, it does pass.
Speaker 1: I think it also passes between Mary Sunshine and Roxy.
Speaker 1: Like there are a number of dynamic, highly motivated female
Speaker 1: characters who talk to each other about all sorts of
Speaker 1: ship in this movie. But as far as our nipple
Speaker 1: scale in which we rate the movie examining it through
Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens, this is another tricky one. While
Speaker 1: it is commenting on and providing satire on these like
Speaker 1: double standards that are foisted upon women. It makes the
Speaker 1: same mistake of only focusing on the narratives of middle class,
Speaker 1: conventionally attractive white him in, which is also what the
Speaker 1: media was doing at the time. So I like, again,
Speaker 1: the precedent was set, so I understand that that's sort
Speaker 1: of why the adaptations went that way as well, But
Speaker 1: I don't like it. I would it would be more
Speaker 1: interesting to me, For example, if dynamics were explored in
Speaker 1: terms of, yes, there are these attractive white women who
Speaker 1: are exploiting the privilege that they have to get exonerated
Speaker 1: from their crimes that they are clearly guilty of, versus
Speaker 1: the women of color who were right alongside them, who
Speaker 1: didn't have those same privileges to exploit, and how what like,
Speaker 1: what are their outcomes? I'd like to know. So I
Speaker 1: think that, um, you know, in an ideal world, the
Speaker 1: movie would have explored that more. But that's also not
Speaker 1: what people in two thousand two were really concerned about doing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's a bummer, But if this were to ever
Speaker 1: be adapted again, and you know, it seems like this
Speaker 1: movie gets adapted every forty years, or something. So yeah,
Speaker 1: against against the wishes of the person who wrote the play.
Speaker 1: Go figure right, because it's all it was also a
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties seven I want to say, Cecil be Silent movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: who I wasn't able to track down. It seems like
Speaker 1: kind of a rare I don't know, I didn't I
Speaker 1: wasn't able to find it. Yeah, I mean, it's just
Speaker 1: like a super popular story and unfortunately it's like, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's still relevant. But if I completely agree that it's
Speaker 1: you know, kind of begging to be updated and modernized,
Speaker 1: and the issues that it's like, you know whatever, it's
Speaker 1: extra frustrating because it's like all either the source material
Speaker 1: and the characters are there, you're just not using them.
Speaker 1: You're not exploring their right exploring them. They're just kind
Speaker 1: of left there. We only know that a woman stabbed
Speaker 1: her husband ten times and another woman. Good for her,
Speaker 1: and it's good for but I need more information, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So um, for those reasons, I'll give the movie a three.
Speaker 1: It's getting some extra points because it is a movie
Speaker 1: I very much enjoy. It is very watchable. The song
Speaker 1: and dance numbers are spectacular, So three nipples and they
Speaker 1: go to the women whose stories have been unrepresented, revolving
Speaker 1: around this like microcosm of lady murderers in the jazz
Speaker 1: era of Chicago. What about you, Jamie, I'm going for
Speaker 1: I think that this movie is in this story are
Speaker 1: doing so much. I completely agree with you that, for
Speaker 1: for all this story does to examine, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of weaponized white fragility, Um, it does not examine the
Speaker 1: issues that women of color were facing during this time
Speaker 1: specific and it's it does come down, you know, particularly
Speaker 1: because this story is commenting on the prison system to
Speaker 1: some extent, and the prison system in the US, especially
Speaker 1: disproportionately affects black people, specifically black men. And there's and
Speaker 1: and it's not like we know anything about A. Diggs's character,
Speaker 1: and he's the only black man who appears in the
Speaker 1: whole movie. So I do think that there's absolutely issues
Speaker 1: there that if this were to be updated again, and
Speaker 1: as much as I don't really care for like the
Speaker 1: rebooty culture, I would be I would be down for
Speaker 1: another and updated version of Chicago because there is so
Speaker 1: much there, and um, I think that particularly if people
Speaker 1: of color were included in in the production behind the camera,
Speaker 1: there's so much to work with, and there could be
Speaker 1: a lot more examined, so that, I mean, and that
Speaker 1: and the Weinstein involvement I think are the main things
Speaker 1: that are going against this movie for me. But I
Speaker 1: just think that this movie is doing so much cool
Speaker 1: stuff in terms of showing us some truly like despicable
Speaker 1: across the board female protagonists that you still deeply understand
Speaker 1: why they're doing what they're doing. You're given the proper
Speaker 1: historical context for who they are and what they're doing.
Speaker 1: And and it's I mean, I I don't think that
Speaker 1: there's a lot of movies that are like fine to watch,
Speaker 1: that are massively successful, that examine topics like this effectively,
Speaker 1: that examine topics like you know, why were these women
Speaker 1: driven to commit murder? And I think that it's pretty
Speaker 1: clear what drives them. It's the you know, oppressive expectations
Speaker 1: of the men that run the world around them. I
Speaker 1: can't really think of the movie that better kind of
Speaker 1: indicts this inflammatory American media culture that has just gotten worse,
Speaker 1: you know, a hundred years out from this in a
Speaker 1: really engaging, funny, smart way. And I and I like
Speaker 1: that that Velma and Roxy end up uh it's kind
Speaker 1: of it's like a depressing but positive ending where they
Speaker 1: are able to they have to kill and lie and
Speaker 1: do a hole this fucked up ship to do it,
Speaker 1: but they are able to finally kind of live their
Speaker 1: lives the way they wanted to and in a way
Speaker 1: that they should have just been able to. But in
Speaker 1: order to do it, all this fucked up stuff happened,
Speaker 1: had to happen. Yeah, I mean, it truly is for me,
Speaker 1: mainly that women of color are not given the narrative
Speaker 1: importance that they deserve in this story. But I think
Speaker 1: that you see also Lucy Lou like she's in the
Speaker 1: movie three minutes basically a cameo. But I do think
Speaker 1: that there are a lot of different kinds of women
Speaker 1: that are highly motivated, that are making their own choices,
Speaker 1: that are fucking up, that are succeeding, that very thoroughly
Speaker 1: understand the tools of oppression being used against them and
Speaker 1: spinning them in their advantage to get away with some
Speaker 1: funked up stuff. And you don't see that kind of
Speaker 1: story with women very often, I feel like, especially in
Speaker 1: like historical movies, and so I just I think this
Speaker 1: movie is doing so much that in this musical in general.
Speaker 1: I like that it's adapted by um, that the source
Speaker 1: material is from a woman, and that the story is
Speaker 1: still generally honored. I like that there's a lot of
Speaker 1: queer representation in the production of this movie, although it
Speaker 1: is very white. Um. I just I don't know. I
Speaker 1: think that this movie is doing a lot that even
Speaker 1: current movies aren't able to do. And I just like
Speaker 1: enjoy when a movie is able to say a lot
Speaker 1: without feeling like you're getting bashed over the head with
Speaker 1: a frying pan. And I think that this movie is
Speaker 1: a good example of that. Uma and any movie that
Speaker 1: is fun and funny and musical and draws the conclusion
Speaker 1: that humanity is a lost cause is my favorite kind
Speaker 1: of movies. So I'm gonna give it four nipples, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to give nipple to Queen Latifa. I'm going
Speaker 1: to give a nipple to Richard Gere because he's my crush.
Speaker 1: I'm going to give a nipple to Katherine Data Jones
Speaker 1: because she's my other crush. And I'm gonna give the
Speaker 1: final nipple to Lucy lou Hell. Yeah, well, Jamie, happy birthday,
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you for watching this movie for me.
Speaker 1: I love it so much. Of course, where can people
Speaker 1: follow you? Jamie Wow, I get my birthday flugs. Listen
Speaker 1: to ack Cast. It's uh listen to ack Cast. It's
Speaker 1: still coming out right now, and it will be I
Speaker 1: think it will be releasing its final episode if I'm
Speaker 1: working on schedule, uh next week. It's an in depth
Speaker 1: look at the Kathy comic strips and kind of what
Speaker 1: they say about the time they appeared in and I
Speaker 1: was able to use a lot of research I did
Speaker 1: for that podcast to have this discussion today. And there's
Speaker 1: episodes about movements of feminism and how deeply flawed and
Speaker 1: centered on middle class and above white women. Uh they
Speaker 1: were there. I just finished working on an episode that's
Speaker 1: all about the formation of American beauty standards and how
Speaker 1: mired they are in imperialism and colonialism and white supremacy
Speaker 1: and all. I mean. It's a fun podcast because it's
Speaker 1: about Kathy comic strips, but it's also a lot of
Speaker 1: still suppressing serious ship as well. So uh yeah, that's
Speaker 1: if you want to give me a birthday present, give
Speaker 1: the battle Cast five stars on iTunes and listen to
Speaker 1: act Cast because I worked hard on it, Yes, and
Speaker 1: give a cast five Stars as well. While you're at it,
Speaker 1: might as well at hurt Wow. Jamie Well, I love
Speaker 1: you dearly. I wish you the happiest of birthdays. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad we do this show together. Yeah, we do
Speaker 1: almost five years, baby, I know. I hope to I
Speaker 1: hope that we're in the same city again soon so
Speaker 1: that we can actually see each other and hang beginning
Speaker 1: of September. Um you can follow us on Twitter and
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Speaker 1: ak Matreon subscribe for five dollars a month. It gets
Speaker 1: you two bonus episodes every month at patreon dot com,
Speaker 1: slash becktel Cast. And then we've got merch. Tell us
Speaker 1: about the merch, Jamie Well. You can buy it and
Speaker 1: it's at de public dot com, slash the backdel Cast.
Speaker 1: Go ever, get the merchant if you're so inclined, it's
Speaker 1: a blast, it's a blessing. It's a gift for you
Speaker 1: to have merch to consume products, because as we live
Speaker 1: in a society, then you know, get some or don't.
Speaker 1: We won't know the difference. We truly won't, We truly
Speaker 1: profoundly won't. And that's Chicago bye,