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Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef and

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Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bell Cast. Hey, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: Hey Caitlin, you know how we are both in jail

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Speaker 1: right now for murdering our lovers classic us. Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: here's what I'm thinking when we get exonerated, because we're

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Speaker 1: so hot, We're so sexy and peregantinette. Yeah exactly, So

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Speaker 1: when we get exonerated, would you like to start a

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Speaker 1: podcast together? Oh my god, can you imagine a Villa Mkelly,

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Speaker 1: Roxy Heart Puck. Okay, that is like the best worst

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Speaker 1: basic cable sitcom reboot I've ever heard of in my life. Like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, yes you're the answer to your question

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Speaker 1: is yes, yes, amazing. That Wait so horrible. Wait who

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Speaker 1: would they cast as Vilma, Kelly and Roxy Heart doing

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Speaker 1: a murder punk? Oh my god, they'd be like Kristen

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Speaker 1: Ritter and Kristen Bell are Roxy and Velma and oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, sign me up. Honestly, CBS call me. I've

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Speaker 1: got the worst idea ever. Oh my god, it would

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Speaker 1: be on CBS and there would be like laugh tracks

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Speaker 1: and stuff. Yeah, oh my god, it would be an

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Speaker 1: absolute nightmare and millions of people would watch. It would

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Speaker 1: be America's number one show. Anyway. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Beckel Cast. Jamie. It's your birthday episode day. Happy birthday, Jamie.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Uh yeah, I um, I can't

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Speaker 1: believe it. Another year, another year has past. I've spent

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Speaker 1: half of my twenties on this podcast. Wow Fully, we're

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Speaker 1: coming up on the five year anniversary. We are, which

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Speaker 1: means I've spent half of my thirties on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's I mean, we look at God. Look at God.

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Speaker 1: When God invented podcasting, she really had us in mind.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for the birthday wishes. On the

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Speaker 1: actual day of my birthday when this comes out, I'll

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Speaker 1: be in Boston. I think that I'll buy I'll do

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Speaker 1: I'll do the Jamie Classic Boston Special, which is that

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Speaker 1: I will get a large cold brew, drink the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Then I will go to a bar and have a beer,

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Speaker 1: and then they'll cancel each other out and I'll be

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Speaker 1: kind of tired, and then I'll do the same thing again,

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Speaker 1: and then I'll sleep for twelve hours. I think that's

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Speaker 1: probably gonna be how I spent my birthday. I did

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Speaker 1: that for so like, why live your life like that?

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Speaker 1: But that's what I did. I mean, it's your life,

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Speaker 1: your choice. I'm just sad that I'm not there to

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Speaker 1: spend it with you because I'm still in l A.

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Speaker 1: I would, oh my god, I would peel all of

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Speaker 1: my skin off to be back in l A. But

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Speaker 1: you know what I love. I love Boston, I love

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Speaker 1: my family, So it's fine. Yeah, so so no, I

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to finally be covering a movie that

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Speaker 1: I feel like we were okay. So we're covering Chicago

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Speaker 1: two thousand two, a modern classic, one of my favorites,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like we were originally putting off covering

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Speaker 1: this movie because we wanted to do a live show

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Speaker 1: in Chicago and cover Chicago. Was that the reason? I

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Speaker 1: believe so well, So, with all due respect to Chicago,

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Speaker 1: I could not wait any longer. I couldn't. I couldn't

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Speaker 1: wait another second. And uh, you know the way things

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Speaker 1: are going right now, who knows when we will be

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Speaker 1: performing regularly again. So we're doing Chicago and I'm so

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Speaker 1: oh my god. I okay, I can we can we like? Well, wait,

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Speaker 1: this is a main feat episode. Okay, so this is

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Speaker 1: the Bechtel cast. This is our It's my birthday. I

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Speaker 1: don't have to be good at my job today. Do

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Speaker 1: you want to take a load off and let me

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Speaker 1: do this so you can just sit back and relax

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Speaker 1: on your birthday? Oh my god, I'm going to have

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Speaker 1: a sip of lean in food Google's Summer Shandy. Oh yummy,

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Speaker 1: take a swig, and I will tell the listeners that

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Speaker 1: what is the show again? We examine movies through an

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Speaker 1: intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a

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Speaker 1: jumping off point, which is of course a media metric

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Speaker 1: created by cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace

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Speaker 1: test that requires for our specific purposes, because we've made

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Speaker 1: some slight variations to the test here and there. Our

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Speaker 1: version is due two people of any marginalized gender, how

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Speaker 1: of names, They have to speak to each other about

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Speaker 1: something other than a man, for what is hopefully a

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Speaker 1: meaningful conversation in the movie or work of fiction. Right

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Speaker 1: and boy is Chicago an incredible movie? To cover? For

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Speaker 1: these purposes, they are talking about. I feel like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we we've been adding asterisks to this test. I feel

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Speaker 1: like this asterisk canonically on this show may already exist

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Speaker 1: that if you're talking about murdering a man who's an asshole,

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Speaker 1: it's it's actually as that does pass the test. I

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Speaker 1: agree this, not that we are condoning murdering men, but

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Speaker 1: like in the fictional space, it's cathartic. Okay there. This

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Speaker 1: movie gets me so fucking pumped for what I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but it basically just like any time I think about

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Speaker 1: this movie, I then have to draw everything and listen

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Speaker 1: to the soundtrack and like go on like a three

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Speaker 1: mile walk and just be like, wow, how did they

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Speaker 1: do this? How did this come together? It doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: like it should work, but it does, but it does.

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Speaker 1: It's so good. Would you say that this movie gets

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Speaker 1: you jazzed? It it gets me so fucking hyped. And

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Speaker 1: this is the kind of movie I feel like this

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Speaker 1: really um defines what makes a movie fun. Is that

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Speaker 1: you know, like when you're I don't know, when you

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Speaker 1: really love a movie, you like picture yourself as all

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Speaker 1: of the different characters, or like one specific character where

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Speaker 1: you're like that one's me in Chicago. I picture being

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Speaker 1: all of the characters like you're just like You've got

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Speaker 1: your days where you're like I'm being I'm being such

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Speaker 1: an amos today, I'm just getting run over. You have

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Speaker 1: your roxy days where you're like, I am just like

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Speaker 1: living on another planet and I'm not connected with reality

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Speaker 1: at this time. Then some days you're just hot and

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Speaker 1: your Velma Ellie and you're and then some days you're

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Speaker 1: Billy Flynn and you're in you're feeling sneaky, and it's

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Speaker 1: just I love this movie. I love all the characters.

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Speaker 1: They're all terrible people. They're all the worst, and I

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Speaker 1: really like when oh, I'm sorry, I'm just like Jamie,

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Speaker 1: it's your birthday, it's my birth it's my birthday. I

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Speaker 1: really enjoy movies. I'm trying to think of other movies

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Speaker 1: that kind of take this tech movies that are like

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Speaker 1: really fun and high energy but also have a pretty

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Speaker 1: low opinion of humanity. I love movies like that. And

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Speaker 1: this is like this, like it's like scratches that little

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Speaker 1: spot behind my ear. It's so good. That is like

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Speaker 1: Titania kind of like man, it kind of like goes

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Speaker 1: in there too. There there's a little more empathy at

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Speaker 1: play in that movie than there is here. I mean,

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Speaker 1: everyone in Chicago is a nightmare. They're they're all so bad,

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Speaker 1: but you like understand, I don't know, I just love it.

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Speaker 1: But I'm rooting for all of them. Honestly, why am I? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the other thing, Like, why am I root for

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Speaker 1: these motherfucker's They're just they're all except with and I

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Speaker 1: do kind of like, I don't know, I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to make a million exceptions for this movie because I

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Speaker 1: don't like when the only like truly, like, oh, unquestionably

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Speaker 1: sympathetic character is some guy. But for some reason, when

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Speaker 1: it's Chicago and it's John c Riley, I'm like, whatever,

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Speaker 1: whatever his performance and Mr Cellophane even I'm gonna argue

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Speaker 1: with that, no way, no way, it's too good. I

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Speaker 1: think you could also make the argument that he's not

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Speaker 1: that sympathetic or redeemable. I'm not saying he's a great guy.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying that it's it's very easy to feel for

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Speaker 1: his predicament to be kind of someone who is not

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Speaker 1: equipped to handle a situation that includes scrutiny, nuance, or

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Speaker 1: public attention. But yeah, I mean no, everyone in this

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Speaker 1: movie in this story like sucks to some degree, except

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Speaker 1: for vill m Kelly, who I think is kind of

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Speaker 1: above criticism. Um. But also but like, I don't mean that.

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Speaker 1: Also Christine Barrand amazing. She's so good. She's just oh

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Speaker 1: my god, this is I and sorry to all the

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Speaker 1: Mamma Mia heads out there, but this is Christine Baranski's

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Speaker 1: best musical movie. Sorry, which she has a tiny line,

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Speaker 1: a few tiny lines here and there in the song

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Speaker 1: about they both reached for the gun. But other than that,

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Speaker 1: I don't think we see her sing right. No, but

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Speaker 1: that verse with Richard Gear and they're dancing around and

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Speaker 1: then Rene's Alwiger does that little smile. I love this

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Speaker 1: movie so much. Did you see it when it first

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Speaker 1: came out? Or no? I wasn't allowed to see it.

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Speaker 1: I was was movie came out, And yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: like eight or nine when this movie came out, so

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Speaker 1: I wasn't allowed to see it. But I remember very

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Speaker 1: clearly my grandma r. I. P. Pat loftis the best.

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Speaker 1: She Her whole deal was that she would tell you

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Speaker 1: things you weren't supposed to know when your parents weren't around,

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Speaker 1: and then your parents would be like, why the fund

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Speaker 1: did you tell her that? Um? So she I remember

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Speaker 1: very clearly. We were at uh. She brought me out

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Speaker 1: for like a report card lunch, and she described everything

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Speaker 1: that happened in Chicago to me. She told me the

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Speaker 1: whole movie and she was like, it's so good. I

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Speaker 1: saw it with my friend May and it was just

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Speaker 1: the best thing I've ever seen. And she told me

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Speaker 1: about the whole movie, and then I think, I think

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Speaker 1: I would have seen it when it came out on DVD,

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Speaker 1: so like I was pretty young when I when I

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Speaker 1: saw it, I just didn't see it in theaters and

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Speaker 1: was just like so hooked on it. This was my

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Speaker 1: first This was my introduction to Richard Gear because I

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Speaker 1: still haven't seen Pretty Woman. What wow, I know, but

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Speaker 1: this was my introduction to Richard Gear and he went

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Speaker 1: on to become a very formative childhood crush of mine.

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Speaker 1: Sure off of this movie, as did Katherine Sada Jones,

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Speaker 1: and so I just, uh, I love this movie and

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to watch back in because unfortunately I feel

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the themes and like messages in

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Speaker 1: this movie are timeless in a way that people are

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Speaker 1: always bad, right, But I don't know just I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is like a very low hanging fruit angle to take.

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Speaker 1: But I was like, oh, watching Chicago, you know carefully

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Speaker 1: after the last five years in the US, you're like, wellshit,

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Speaker 1: it's wild. Yeah, yeah, what's your what's your history with Chicago?

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Speaker 1: I didn't see it right away. I don't think I

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Speaker 1: saw it until until after it won the Economy Award

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Speaker 1: for Best Picture, and then I was like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: guess I should see this. Um. I was in high

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Speaker 1: school at the time, and as listeners of the podcast

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Speaker 1: might know, I am generally not a fan of live

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Speaker 1: action movie musicals, but there are a handful of exceptions,

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Speaker 1: and Chicago is one of them. When I did see it,

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Speaker 1: I liked the movie enough to buy it on DVD.

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Speaker 1: It's a romp. It's a romp, but for some reason. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So a friend of the cast, Katherine Leon Spy Kids episode.

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Speaker 1: Of course, she and I used to like. She would

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Speaker 1: come over, we would sit in my bed. I would

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Speaker 1: show her like quintessential movies that she had never seen.

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Speaker 1: I was like, you haven't seen Star Wars. Here are

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Speaker 1: the Star Wars movies. You haven't seen this, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: I would we would like rifle through my huge binder

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Speaker 1: of DVDs and she's like, oh my god, you have Chicago.

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Speaker 1: I love Chicago. And then for some reason, course Katherine

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Speaker 1: loves Chicago. She has got a great taste. But for

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Speaker 1: some reason, I was like, do you want it? I

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Speaker 1: never watched this movie. Here you can have my DVD.

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Speaker 1: And now I regret it because I'm like, I would

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Speaker 1: like that back, Catherine. Catherine, have you asked? Yeah, she's not.

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Speaker 1: It's not like she's refusing to give it to me.

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Speaker 1: I just she doesn't know that. I um. Also, it's

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Speaker 1: like streaming, so who cares. But but I I purchased,

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Speaker 1: I really made. I made a lifelong commitment and I

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Speaker 1: purchased Chicago Diamond addition to watch whenever I wanted. It's

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Speaker 1: remastered and it has all these fun features and I

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Speaker 1: had such a fun time watching them. The production of

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Speaker 1: this movie looked so fun, Like do you ever any

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Speaker 1: time I would watch a First of all, Rob Marshall

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Speaker 1: directed this movie and is further proof that the choreographer

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Speaker 1: to director Pipeline is immaculate and needs no adjustment. See

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Speaker 1: Kenny or take Up. I was gonna say yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's the only other example. I'm sure there's others,

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Speaker 1: but that's too. That's two pretty strong choreography good examples.

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Speaker 1: Rob Marshall choreographed and directed this movie and all the

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes. It just looks like a bunch of

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Speaker 1: celebrities went to summer camp to put together a school

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Speaker 1: play and then one of my favorite movies came out

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Speaker 1: of it. Like is so cool? I love Wow? Well,

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Speaker 1: should I do the recap? And yes, but I need

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Speaker 1: to tell you something about Rob Marshall first, Okay, please,

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Speaker 1: I was wondering if you located this fact. This is

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Speaker 1: something that like, okay, much like my other fun fact

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Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with this movie, but we

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Speaker 1: talked about the other day. This is a fact that

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Speaker 1: I know in my bones, but I forget and I

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Speaker 1: relearned once every couple of years, and I love it.

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Speaker 1: It's about director Rob Marshall, and it's that he began

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Speaker 1: as a dancer then became a choreographer. Makes sense. But

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Speaker 1: the thing that launched him into choreography and directing and

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Speaker 1: got him out of the full time dancing game is

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Speaker 1: that he suffered a herniated disc while performing in Cats.

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Speaker 1: So the only reason that Chicago two thousand two is

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Speaker 1: as amazing as it is because I feel like that

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Speaker 1: choreography and like the understanding of stage language is so

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Speaker 1: much of what makes this movie awesome and why I

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Speaker 1: like it more than a lot of other live action

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Speaker 1: movie musicals. Yeah, as it actually like understands cinematic language

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Speaker 1: and like how to put together a musical in a

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Speaker 1: way that's like totally I can suspend my disbelief for

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Speaker 1: the things that are happening, etcetera. It's so yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: so good. And if he hadn't suffered a herniated disc

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Speaker 1: while being a full body cat, it wouldn't have happened. Imagine.

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Speaker 1: It is interesting to me how it's like I guess

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Speaker 1: that I'm I still haven't seen in the Heights, and

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Speaker 1: like whatever, there's that Steven Spielberg West Side Story coming out.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if it's going to be any good, because

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Speaker 1: I feel like big directors are given popular Broadway musicals

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Speaker 1: and very often like I don't know what to do

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Speaker 1: with them, and they're so I mean, it's like you've

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Speaker 1: got Joel Schumacher fant about the opera a lot of swings.

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Speaker 1: He didn't know what he was doing. Chris Columbus did Rent,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the worst like director to project

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Speaker 1: matches I can think of. Like, there's just so many

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Speaker 1: examples of people getting it wrong, and it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: cats cat whatever, I forget his name, but the guy

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Speaker 1: who did what's his name, Tom Tom Pepe, Yeah, who

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Speaker 1: also funked up La Miss, but everyone gave him awards

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Speaker 1: for it for some reason. It's like, oh, can you

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Speaker 1: make every famous person sing out of key and cover

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Speaker 1: them in dirt? Like I don't get but but yeah,

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Speaker 1: like this this whole I think is so interesting about

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Speaker 1: this movie because it's like this movie and Mulin Rouge

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Speaker 1: came out very close together, and I feel like people

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Speaker 1: sort of thought, oh, there's going to be this big

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Speaker 1: resurgence of the movie musical, but then there kind of

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Speaker 1: wasn't because then they just like hired all these famous

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Speaker 1: directors who didn't understand musicals. But Lan Rouge one of

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Speaker 1: the few other live action movie musicals that I can

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Speaker 1: fully get behind. It's amazing. I was. I feel like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever said his name correctly,

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Speaker 1: bas Learman. I think that's right. He definitely has like

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Speaker 1: an understanding of like movement and pacing and like that's

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Speaker 1: so much of his style and that's why it works. Anyways,

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Speaker 1: pisses me off. Stopped getting really famous people who make

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Speaker 1: like war movies, war horses, like musicals. What are you

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Speaker 1: doing anyways? Um, maybe we should take a quick break

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Speaker 1: before we get into the recap, because we've just been

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Speaker 1: chatting for so long about how great Chicago is. All right,

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Speaker 1: so let's take a quick break and we'll come right

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Speaker 1: back and we're back. Okay, let's summarize the movie. I

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Speaker 1: promised not keep talking about. Oh wait, but I have

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Speaker 1: one more fun factor. No please, we talked about it

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Speaker 1: the other day. I'm sure it's connected to Chicago tangentially because,

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Speaker 1: oh because the two people in this fun fact, we're

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Speaker 1: both living in Chicago. We're very famous in Chicago. Roger

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Speaker 1: Ebert and Oprah used to date in the eighties. That

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Speaker 1: is a Chicago fact. That's just Chicago canon. Chicago canon

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Speaker 1: includes this musical and the fact that Roger Ebert and

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Speaker 1: Oprah briefly dated, which I didn't know about until you

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Speaker 1: told me. I don't know why that's not more common knowledge.

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Speaker 1: I know, but they were. But it's like at first year,

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Speaker 1: like but he's like so much older than her and

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Speaker 1: she's so much cooler than him. And Steadman is such

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Speaker 1: a you know, Steadman is so canon, right, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: like he was basically her last boyfriend before Steadman came

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Speaker 1: into the picture, one of the last ones wild. That's

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Speaker 1: just that's I'm Richard Gear putting my hat on, and

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Speaker 1: that's Chicago. Oh my god. And that's going to be

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Speaker 1: one of those facts that I will forget and then

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Speaker 1: relearn in a couple of months or years or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and then be like, oh my god, I can't believe it.

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Speaker 1: It's just like Rob Marshall getting a herniated desk in Cats.

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Speaker 1: It's just a delightful thing to learn over and over again.

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Speaker 1: So what so what happens in this movie anyways? Okay,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you. It's the roaring twenties in ch Chicago.

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Speaker 1: There's jazz music, they're flapperds, there speakeasies, it's the whole

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Speaker 1: nine yards. He Digs is in charge. Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: I was so delighted to see him. Who's my first

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Speaker 1: height Digs movie? Too? Was? It really is going five six, seven, eight?

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Speaker 1: And then what you're ten and you're like, what is

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Speaker 1: exqueeze me, who's that exciting? Just a reminder. T Diggs

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Speaker 1: now follows me on Twitter thanks to our Stella got

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Speaker 1: her groove back episode, so incredible. Tag him in this

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Speaker 1: I will. And another celebrity connection I have to this

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Speaker 1: movie is that John c Riley I saw at a

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Speaker 1: roller skating rink in Glendale, California. Oh my gosh. And

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Speaker 1: he's like a regular and not to docks his hobbies,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, isn't he like a regular there? And he's

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Speaker 1: like really good. That's what I've heard. He was a

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Speaker 1: pretty good roller skater. It's true. And uh, I I

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Speaker 1: don't know how frequently he he attends this roller rink,

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Speaker 1: but um, I'm so glad that John c Riley exit.

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Speaker 1: I feel like there's so many dads that have been

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Speaker 1: able to connect with their children over a mutual appreciation

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Speaker 1: of John c Riley. What a beautiful thing. Dads are

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Speaker 1: obsessed with John c Riley. The deeper, the cut, the better,

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Speaker 1: and I understand why. I get it. Okay, So we're

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Speaker 1: in the jazz age in Chicago. We meet vil m Kelly.

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Speaker 1: That's Katherine's to Jones Hot. She shows up at this

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Speaker 1: jazz club to do her vaudeville act, which she normally

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Speaker 1: does with her sister, but her sister isn't there, and

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Speaker 1: Velma is washing blood off her hands, and we're like,

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Speaker 1: what's what's going on? And then it's one of the

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Speaker 1: best openings of any movie ever. She's so hot, she's

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Speaker 1: so it's like I in our defense, she like her

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Speaker 1: whole She's obviously very hot, but like her whole attitude

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Speaker 1: is like hot, Like she's just hot at a very profound,

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Speaker 1: like in this confident way. You're like, I'm never going

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Speaker 1: to feel that way for a second of my entire life.

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Speaker 1: It's so amazing to just behold it, truly is. It's great.

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Speaker 1: And as you mentioned, Tay Diggs is also there playing

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Speaker 1: the piano and all over the place. Also there is

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Speaker 1: roxy Heart that's Renai's elbowger. She is in the audience

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Speaker 1: watching Velma. Then she goes home with this guy that

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Speaker 1: she's having an affair with who I forgot to write

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Speaker 1: his name down? Fred Caseley? Fred Caseley? Yes, whose Fred

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Speaker 1: Casey Mike's boyfriend? Why did you shoot him? I was leaving, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: R Yes. She finds out that Fred Caseley has been

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Speaker 1: lying to her about being able to help her break

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Speaker 1: into show biz, which is her dream. She wants to

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Speaker 1: be just like Vill m kelly. Basically, Fred Casey is

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Speaker 1: basically a guy who will drive you to an open

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Speaker 1: mic and say that he can get you up at

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Speaker 1: the open mic, but then it turns out he can't

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Speaker 1: even he can't even get himself up at the open mic,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, hold on, and then you understand her

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Speaker 1: motive for shooting him, because that kind of guy, you know,

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Speaker 1: the kind of guy. Yeah. So he then gets really

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Speaker 1: aggressive with her and physically assaults her, so she shoots

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Speaker 1: and kills him. Yeah. Roxy then tries to get her

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Speaker 1: husband Amos that's John c Riley to take the fall

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Speaker 1: for it, saying that this guy was a burglar and

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Speaker 1: that Amos shot him in self defense. Another amazing number.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny. Honey Rocks. Not one of my favorites,

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Speaker 1: but still pretty good. I love I love it. I

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Speaker 1: love when Rene's Algar is just casting looks at John

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Speaker 1: c Riley and he's like, but what, but what? But what?

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Speaker 1: And you're like, oh my gosh, someone helped this guy out.

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Speaker 1: And then she pushes him right because he is slowly

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Speaker 1: realizing that this guy who has been shot is someone

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Speaker 1: who Roxy knows and is having an affair with. So

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Speaker 1: Roxy ends up getting arrested and getting sent to Cook

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Speaker 1: County jail, and the d A wants to see her

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Speaker 1: hanged for her crime. Right, that's like a big, big deal,

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Speaker 1: which I guess which I didn't realize, Like how like

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Speaker 1: historically accurate that was at the time too, of just

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Speaker 1: the kind of blood lust that came with normalized hangings

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Speaker 1: and death penalties in the US. Yeah, scary, So the

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Speaker 1: stakes are high, yes, And in jail, Roxy meets Mama Morton.

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Speaker 1: That's Queen Latifa, who I want to see an entire

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Speaker 1: movie about her character. I wish. I've never seen the

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Speaker 1: stage production of this. I do like in the movie.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I definitely want to know more about

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Speaker 1: Mama Morton, Like how did she get start working there?

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Speaker 1: What is her background? Like what does she do when

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Speaker 1: she's not working? Like, I don't know, there's I have

400
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Speaker 1: a bajillion questions, And I wonder if there's more to

401
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Speaker 1: her in the stage production. I've never seen it on stage.

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Speaker 1: I was love too, but yeah, like Queen Latifa, just

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Speaker 1: I mean she was nominated for I think, like everyone

404
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Speaker 1: was nominated for an Oscar for this movie, but Queen

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Speaker 1: Latifa was I think, I mean, Catherine's Aida Jones ended

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Speaker 1: up winning and she was also amazing, but I think

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Speaker 1: Queen Latifa for me, kind of takes it because she

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Speaker 1: just kills it. It's so good. And yeah, it's like,

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Speaker 1: because of how good she is, you just want to

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Speaker 1: watch this character forever. And she's funny when she has

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Speaker 1: the blonde wig. Oh my gosh, it's also good. I

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Speaker 1: read that there was a musical number that she and

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Speaker 1: Katherine's Data Jones saying in a movie called Class that

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Speaker 1: they cut from the movie. Yeah, it's in the credits instead,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, we maybe learn more there, but yeah, I

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Speaker 1: feel like we and we'll talk about this, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: we do not get a lot of background on her

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Speaker 1: but her role in the So she is also a prisoner, right,

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Speaker 1: but she has taken on this role of helping out

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Speaker 1: other prisoners in exchange for money. Ever heard of it?

421
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: So we meet her and she gets a great song

422
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: which I think is my favorite in the movie, which

423
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: how does it go? When You're good to Mama, When

424
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: you're good to mama, Mama's good to you. Oh my god,

425
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: it's so good that whole number. And then in the

426
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: behind the scenes they show you how they shot it,

427
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: and I guess they shot it like the first time

428
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: they shot it in the like stagey version where she's

429
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: wearing the flapper outfit. Um the first time, they had

430
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: her stay on stage the whole time, and then Rob

431
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: Marshall's like, let's try it, and this time like go

432
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: into the crowd and interact with people, and they ended

433
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: up using stuff from both versions, and it's so I

434
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: was like, I love that. It's it's so good. It's great.

435
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 1: So Roxy meets Mama Morton. She also meets vil M Kelly,

436
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: who has since been arrested for murdering her husband and

437
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: her sister who were having an affair with each other.

438
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: And then we also get introduced to the six Mary

439
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: murderouses of the Cook County Jail, who have mostly murdered

440
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: men because they were cheating on the women or the

441
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: women were annoyed with popping bubblegum. I found that to

442
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: be pretty funny as a motive. So Roxy asks Vilma

443
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: Kelly for advice on how to avoid being hanged, but

444
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: Vilma like kind of blows her off, so Roxy goes

445
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: to Mamma Morton who tells roxy that she needs a

446
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: good lawyer. Enter Billy Flynn. Well, yeah, and I as

447
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 1: MoMA Martin is not a prisoner. She's not. Oh no,

448
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: she's not. She's like the superintendent as she's like the

449
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: warden of the prison she's employed by, So that's why

450
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: that's where her power comes from. So she's I feel

451
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: like she is kind of like a stand in for

452
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,239
Speaker 1: how the prison system is extremely corrupt because she is

453
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: like taking money from prisoners and accepting bribes in order

454
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 1: to communicate with the outside world because she has access

455
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, she's like a prison warden. Got it.

456
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell because the prison staff were dressed very

457
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: similarly to we all have the same prisoners. So it's like,

458
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: is she a prisoner? No, she's not, got it? Because

459
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: I've seen Shawshank Redemption a million times, I thought she

460
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: was like the Red character of that movie, who plays

461
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: a very similar role in like procuring things for the

462
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 1: other prisoners. But Red is a prisoner as well, so

463
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: I just kind of assumed it was the same situation.

464
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: Mama isn't she is, She's the warden and that's why

465
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: she is able. I think it's like when she takes money,

466
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: she's able to like contact the press, contact Billy Flynn,

467
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: contact whoever. That makes more sense. Okay, So Mama Morton

468
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: tells Roxy to hire Billy Flynn, who is very good

469
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: at defending women murderers, but he's also a very sleazy,

470
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: money grubbing lawyer. Guy. It's like a cartoonish yeah, criminal

471
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: defense lawyer. Yeah. So Billy Flynn already represents Filma and

472
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: he eventually takes on Roxy's case as well, thinking that

473
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: he can spin her as this like sweet reformed Southern

474
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: bell type. Because the whole thing with these murderous is

475
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: is that they have to get like the public and

476
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: the press to empathize with them, like empathize with this

477
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: persona that they cultivate in order to clear them of charges.

478
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: So this is what both Velma and Roxy are trying

479
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: to do for their like defense, and the public falls

480
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: in love with Roxy heart. Billy Flynn is paying a

481
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: lot of attention to her case, which makes Velma very jealous,

482
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: and Roxy is also trying to capitalize on her fame

483
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: as a murderer and turn it around into a successful

484
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: show business career, assuming she gets out of prison right,

485
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: which she is like directly stealing that from Velma Kelly

486
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: who's in the middle of doing it, and it's Roxy

487
00:29:54,760 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: is so naive. And then Velma, who the public is

488
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: starting to forget about, tries to suck up to Roxy.

489
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: She pitches that they do an act together when they're

490
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: released from prison, but Rocket number Tay Diggs being like

491
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: Vilma Kelly and an act of desperation and we're like,

492
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: t he he it's so good. And then Catherine Aanda Jones,

493
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: Oh god, it's so good seeing like a really well

494
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: executed like song and dance number, but also like you

495
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: know that the characters like really at the end of

496
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: their rope, and she's so desperate and sad and oh,

497
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: I love this movie so much. So Vilma pitches this idea,

498
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: but Roxy, who remembers when Vilma was really mean to her,

499
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: is like um pass. But then people momentarily lose interest

500
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: in Roxy. When a new murderous takes Chicago by a

501
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: storm yep, Lucy lou Is saying I have three for

502
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: you go to Hell. It is like ja, oh my god, Pulitzer. Yeah,

503
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: her character's name is Kitty Baxter. Um and everyone's obsessed

504
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: with her for a while, so as a publicity stunt

505
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: to get back in the spotlight, Roxy pretends to faint

506
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: and then says, oh, no, I hope the fall didn't

507
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: hurt the baby a k A. She's pretending to be

508
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: gregnant gregnant, she's pretending to be heavy with greg That brilliant,

509
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: shitty person thing to do in that moment. Truly, she

510
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: would make a great influencer TikTok personality today she essentially is, Yeah,

511
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: she's like a flapper influencer, where she's like a flash

512
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: in the pan. She's not doing anything special, but she's

513
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: like cut throat in a way that you're like, oh

514
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: my god, this woman is terrifying to me, or just

515
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: I mean person in general, terrifying influencers, No, no gender,

516
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: it's it's it's everybody, truly. Um And this publicity stunt works.

517
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: But then Amos figures out that he couldn't be the

518
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,479
Speaker 1: father based on this like fabricated do date, so he

519
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: plans to divorce her. Mr Cellaphane comes on and we're like, oh,

520
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: it's so sad and good, and then my dad's like,

521
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: maybe I do like musicals. Well that happened yeah, because

522
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: and that's and that's the power of John c Riley

523
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: to get my dad to watch a whole movie musical

524
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: and be like, I kind of like that. Wow, Mike,

525
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: I like John c Riley song. Shout out to Mike

526
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: Loftus shout out like Meanwhile, one of the lady murderers

527
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: in jail loses her appeal and is hanged, making her

528
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: the first woman in Illinois to be executed. Also, we

529
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: have met a reporter named Mary Sunshine. That's Christine Baranski

530
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: who we see throughout the movie. She's reporting heavily on

531
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: all of these cases of the women in murder throw Yeah,

532
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: just to shout her out. She's incredible. The outfits that

533
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: she wears, I mean iconic. This was I think my

534
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: first time when I saw this movie. It was my

535
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: first time seeing so many famous people. This definitely would

536
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: have been like my adwitter, Richard gear renaz Alwig Er Katain's,

537
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: Aida Jones, Queen Latifa, John c. I mean, I wouldn't

538
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: have seen any of these people before because I was nine.

539
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: But the only person I had seen before was Christine

540
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: Baranski because she was in How the Grinch Stole Christmas.

541
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: Martha May who so her influence, she had a strangle

542
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: hold on millennial children. What a What a career? She said,

543
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: what a career. So then it's time for Roxy's trial,

544
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: which goes well. At first it seems like this defense

545
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: that Billy Flynn and Roxy have created is working on

546
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: the jury, but then Velma is called in to testify

547
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: and she lies about some information that makes Roxy look bad.

548
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: But then Billy works as magic and Roxy is ultimately

549
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 1: found not guilty. But the moment she's exonerated, another woman

550
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: commits a murder on the courthouse steps, so the public

551
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: frenzy moves on to her and no one cares about

552
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: Roxy anymore, or Lucy Lou or Lucy Lou or Velma.

553
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: So one day Velma approaches Roxy and she's like, hey,

554
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: remember that double act I pitched. Let's do it, baby,

555
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: And then Roxy's like, well, I hate you but fine.

556
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: That's my favorite, one of my favorite line reads in

557
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: the entire movie, where she's like, should we do it?

558
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: And then Roxy is like no, and then she says

559
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: why and she because I hate you away It's then

560
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 1: Velma's like, there's only one business in the world where

561
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't matter, and then we're like show business. The

562
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: way that Catherine's Aada Jones speaks is so like wealthy.

563
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: I don't know how she she makes words just they

564
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: just keep going. There's this um on one of my

565
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: favorite podcasts, Who Weekly Um, which is a celebrity gossip

566
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: podcast that is I do recommend it. It's really good.

567
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 1: But they've been covering Catherine's Dada Jones quite a bit

568
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: recently because she is starting all of these small businesses

569
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: that don't make any sense. But she recently posted a

570
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: TikTok with these like gourds that she had grown in

571
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: her garden. Picture of this Katherin's Aida Jones holding an

572
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: enormous gourd, right, and she says it's extremely large, Like

573
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,479
Speaker 1: she's just like talking about gourds, but she's Katherine's Dada Jones,

574
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: and so it just sounds like so theatrical. It's that's

575
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: the energy she's bringing to Like there's one business where

576
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: that doesn't matter at all. You're like, oh my god,

577
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: she sounds like a long cigarette Like it's it's wild.

578
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: I mean, she was perfectly cast, she really was. So.

579
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: Then the movie ends with Roxy and Velma performing on

580
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 1: a big stage for lots of adoring fans and that's

581
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: the movie. Yeah, so let's take another quick break and

582
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 1: then we'll come back to discuss and reac I wanted

583
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: to just start this conversation by acknowledging something that is

584
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: by far one of the worst elements of this movie,

585
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: which is the fact that it's produced by the Wine

586
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: Stains having and and this is I mean, we've talked

587
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: about it on the show before. I don't think that

588
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: there's really occasion to rehash everything now, but obviously the

589
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: fact that the wine Stains are attached to this production

590
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: is horrific and it and it just you know, it

591
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: takes kind of a little bit of the wind out

592
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: of a really amazing production. Fortunately, it as far as

593
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: I can tell, it doesn't seem as if the Weinsteins

594
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: were like around in an onset capacity. Um. It seems

595
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: like the production of this movie was relatively smooth. There

596
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: was some news items I was seeing about I believe

597
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: Goldie Hawn almost being in an adaptation of Chicago by

598
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: the Weinsteins in the mid nineties, and then she was

599
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 1: harassed by Harvey Weinstein and the project ended up not happening.

600
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: Uh well, linked to that in the description, but obviously

601
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: want to acknowledge their involvements, and I mean it goes

602
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: without saying that they're fucking monsters, but the production team

603
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: on this movie, I mean, it's kind of interesting where

604
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: this movie is written and directed by men. They are

605
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: both gay men and openly gay men. In uh in

606
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 1: Hollywood and in early two thousand's that was still a

607
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: pretty um unusual thing to be an openly gay director

608
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: directing movies of you know that were this huge. So

609
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: shout out to Rob Marshall and his hopefully recovered disc

610
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 1: for that and and their queer directors who have gone

611
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 1: on to have huge careers afterwards. This is I don't

612
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 1: think Rob Marshall ever, you know, returned to the height

613
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: of Chicago, but you know, he directed Into the Woods,

614
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: which I didn't see. He directed the Emily Blunt Mary Poppins,

615
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: He's directing the New Little Mermaid, and then the screenplay

616
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: was written by Bill Condon, who started as a writer

617
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: and is now a huge director. He wrote Chicago, but

618
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: he also wrote and directed Dream Girls, another faive of

619
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: mine from this time, directed to Twilights, directed both Breaking Down.

620
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 1: Mr Bill was was there um and also directed the

621
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: uh what he he wrote The Greatest Showman. Okay, that's

622
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: the point against him. But and then he directed The

623
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: Emma Watson Beauty and The Beast That Sucked. All that

624
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 1: to say, the two kind of top brass. Here are

625
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: queer men who went on to have very successful careers.

626
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: So shouts out there, good for them. Yeah, should we

627
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: do a little context. Yeah, the context for this movie rocks.

628
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: I knew I knew some of this, but going back

629
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: and like finding out how much of this movie at well,

630
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: this musical is pulled from actual history is so wild.

631
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: Do you want to take it? I can take whatever

632
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: you prefer. How about this? Take another swig of your

633
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: your beer? All I ran out? Oh no, I'm so sorry.

634
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, I'll take the reins on this one.

635
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: But if there's anything I messed up or that you'd

636
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: like to add, by all means, I'll just chime in.

637
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: I'll just chime in my nase. Okay, So Chicago The

638
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: Two movie is based on a nineteen stage musical of

639
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 1: the same name, which had a revival in which became

640
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: the longest running American musical and Broadway history. Bob Fossey, Baby,

641
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: that's that Fossy Magic. Yes. Um, that musical was based

642
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: on a nine Broadway play by Maureen Dallas Watkins, who

643
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 1: we will be talking more about, and that play is

644
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: about to real life jazz era murderers. These names I

645
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: might get wrong as far as pronunciation. Um, it's these

646
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: names sound to me like you're forgetting val m Kelly

647
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: and Roxy Heart. Like it just sound like you're like

648
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: um Belva Gartner and you're like no Velma Kelly, so

649
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 1: Belva Gartner who Velma Kelly is based on, and Boula

650
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: Bela Ann who Roxy Heart is based on. So basically

651
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties in Chicago, I don't know if

652
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: there was like an unprecedented number of women in jail

653
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: for murder in this time and place, or if it's

654
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: just that women being in jail for murder in Chicago

655
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: in the twenties was especially publicized, and that's why we

656
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: know a lot about it. I have. I have a

657
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 1: tiny bit of insight here that connects to quick Plug

658
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: ac cast just still being released right now. You can

659
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: listen to it and you can hear Caitlin's voice in

660
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: it as well in it. But so my understanding of

661
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: this is at least in the way it was covered

662
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: in the media, which is like, what that whole play

663
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: was satirizing, is that this kind of comes at the

664
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: tail end, Like the crimes that this is based on

665
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: comes a couple of years after women get the vote. Uh,

666
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: it comes at the tail end of the first wave

667
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: feminist movement. And so the whole Flapper era, I mean

668
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: it was, and we'll discussed this as well, it was

669
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: very still centered on middle class and above white women,

670
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 1: which this story is no exception too. But uh, what

671
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: what I learned in researching for the show is that

672
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: usually periods of success for really any social movement, but

673
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: in this case, the feminist movement is then met in

674
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: the years following with a wave of backlash and at

675
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: least focus on, um, the negative aspects of literally anything

676
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: a woman is doing that is negative. And so my

677
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: read on this with that lens is that this sort

678
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: of came in the kind of fallout of this huge

679
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: success for the feminist movement and by really putting media

680
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: scrutiny on women who were murdering their sexual partners, whether

681
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: they were you know, in Roxy's case, you know, she's

682
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: cheating on her husband or vill mcklly, like she's you know,

683
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 1: portrayed as kind of this loose woman who's like living

684
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: her own life and so demonizing those people in the

685
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: fall of a big feminist win in women's liberation kind

686
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: of closely matches up with how those things tend to go.

687
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: So I wasn't super surprised to know that. You know,

688
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: it's very I think it would have been very easy

689
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: in the early twenties to be like, well, look, feminism

690
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: fucked everyone, like women are are murderers now, we gave

691
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: women the right to vote and another killing Peo. Yeah,

692
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: that was like, that was kind of my my read

693
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: on this period. But I mean, but I you know,

694
00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: that's not for sure, but that was either way, it

695
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: seemed like women being murderers was so hot. It was

696
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: so hot at that time, and especially in Chicago specifically

697
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: for some reason. So that was what was going on historically,

698
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: in the Cook County Jail in Chicago in the twenties,

699
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: there was a section called Murderous Row where more than

700
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 1: a dozen women were like all the coolest, most recent

701
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 1: woman murderers were all just we're all hanging out being

702
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,919
Speaker 1: detained their wild waiting to stand trial for murder. Most

703
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: of them had been accused of killing their husband or

704
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: lover then. So there were these two women in particular

705
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: who were getting a lot of media attention because they

706
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 1: were traditionally by Western beauty standards attractive. So this was Bulah, Beulah, Beulah,

707
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: let's go with that, Beulah and On and Belva Gardner.

708
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: These women, they were receiving fan mail, they were giving

709
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: each other makeovers in jail. I thought that was more interesting,

710
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: Like that was something that I wish that they kind

711
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: of focused more on in the adaptations, is the fact that,

712
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: like I feel like in the adaptations, definitely Velma and

713
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: Roxy are put into conflict, which makes sense in the story,

714
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: but it sounds like the people they're based on were

715
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: friends and like close friends, and I kind of am

716
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: more interested in that angle of them being kind of

717
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: allied in this like similar fucked up situation from the beginning.

718
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, so you know, all these women were like

719
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: giving each other pedicures and stuff, basically making themselves as

720
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: pretty unpopular as possible, knowing that it was rare for

721
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: the all male juries at the time to convict women,

722
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: especially attractive women, of murder, even though even if there

723
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 1: was like mountains of evidence against them, I will say, yeah,

724
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: it seems pretty it seems like Beulah and Velva Um

725
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: did it seems certainly. So. Then Maureen Dallas Watkins, who

726
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: was one of the few women reporters at the Chicago

727
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: Tribune at the time, was assigned to report on murderous

728
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: Row and it was assigned to her specifically because her

729
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: editors thought that that particular subject of covering women awaiting

730
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 1: trial for murder would be too boring for men to

731
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: report on how wrong they were right, So kind of

732
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: with the help of all of this press from Maureen

733
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: Dallas Watkins on Beulah and Velva, they were not convicted

734
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: of murder. They were set free. And they did this

735
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 1: because they kind of leaned into the defense of having

736
00:46:55,400 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 1: been corrupted by jazz music and booze. So that's something

737
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: that we'll talk about a lot um. Yeah, like all

738
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: things that are associated with personal freedom, which was not

739
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: cool for women to be having, right, and then they

740
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: kind of, as we see in the movie, they put

741
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: on these personas of oh, no, I'm reformed, now I'm

742
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: I'm I was a sinner, but now I'm I'm sweet

743
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: and innocent, and I even have a baby on the

744
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: way because this fake pregnancy thing that we see roxy

745
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: Heart do and the movie is based on what Beulah

746
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 1: and On actually did in real life to try to

747
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: garner sympathy from the public. So I was truly shocked

748
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,280
Speaker 1: at how close they're right. The Villa m Kelly stuff

749
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: seems to be like somewhat fictionalized, like the whole sister

750
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 1: thing I think is made up, but the yeah, roxy

751
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,439
Speaker 1: Heart and Beulah An are like one and the same,

752
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: like down to like the mechanic husband who wasn't totally

753
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: sure what was going on right right exactly. So I

754
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: have a quote here that I'll share, which, unless you

755
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: have any other additional preliminary context that I think will

756
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: lead into a discussion about kind of what's thematically happening

757
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: in this movie. I think, Well, I think the only

758
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: other thing I wanted to touch on was the fact

759
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: that Marian Dallas Watkins so she like covers the story

760
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: in her twenties and releases it. I thought it was interesting,

761
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: like she the play and the musical, But the play

762
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 1: started out as like a pretty like heavy handed satire

763
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: because it was a play that was running in Chicago

764
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: about murders that had taken place in Chicago two years prior.

765
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: Like everyone was watching it like it was I mean,

766
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: obviously like an iconic, well crafted story, but it was

767
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 1: like everyone knew exactly what this was about, and it

768
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 1: was interesting too. I read a little bit about her life.

769
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 1: It didn't do a super deep dive, but just how

770
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: her attitude towards her this play kind of changed over

771
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: time where I think she started to feel as time

772
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: went on, and she she like left public life in

773
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: the forties but lived to I think the late sixties,

774
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: early seventies or something like that, but as time went on,

775
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 1: she sort of didn't want the play to be continued

776
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: to be adapted, even though it was adapted into a

777
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 1: movie with Ginger Rogers I believe in the forties called

778
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,479
Speaker 1: Roxy Heart. But I think she's she started to feel

779
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: like people are taking the wrong message away from this

780
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: famous play I wrote, and I don't know if I

781
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 1: really want to keep perpetuating this story. And so Bob

782
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: Fossey approached her in the sixties and was like, I

783
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: need to make this into a fossy Hands musical. It's

784
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: an emergency. You need to let me do it, and

785
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: she said no. And it wasn't until after she died

786
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: that he was able to get the rights. Because I

787
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 1: think that money plus estate plus not living creator equals

788
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: oh whoopsie, Daisy, I have the rights. So I think

789
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: that it is like, I mean, am I glad that

790
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: Bob Fosse scammed his way into the rights to this

791
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: kind of but it is, but the ethics of that,

792
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: I was like, well, that's kind of sucked up. She said,

793
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: she said no, Bob, she said no, Um, I don't know,

794
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 1: bizarre right, that was the only other thing that I

795
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: had that I was like, that's something, yeah, and that

796
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: it kind of relates to this quote that I will

797
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 1: share from an article on sci fi dot com hot

798
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 1: entitled the real story behind Chicago's Mary murders is roxy

799
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: Heart and vill mkelly. And this is speaking to the

800
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: general atmosphere and what Marine Dallas Watkins was reporting on.

801
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: So quote, the press and the public ate up the gossip,

802
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 1: the details on dresses, and the sob stories about bad men,

803
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: booze and devilish jazz. Prosecutors began to think you couldn't

804
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: convict a pretty woman in this town. As for Watkins,

805
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: she believed her influence was he to the acquittal of

806
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: both the Mary murderouses, as she felt the pair were

807
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 1: guilty and likely lying through their teeth. She had mixed

808
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: feelings on that, so she wrote about it in Watkins

809
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: went from reporter to Broadway playwright with Brave Little Women,

810
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: a satirical stage play that would later be retitled Chicago.

811
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: It was she who transformed a non gartner, their victims husbands, lawyers,

812
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: peers and reporters, and two characters like Roxy Heart, Van

813
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: m Kelly, Billy Flynn, Mary Sunshine and Go to Hell Kitty.

814
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: She hoped this dark comedy would highlight how appearances and

815
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: sex appeal had become too important in the justice system. Unquote.

816
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: So I think that's really interesting. I mean that's like

817
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: that the such a bizarre journey for all of this

818
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:55,439
Speaker 1: to go on, And I think it's an interesting way too.

819
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, the ethics are certainly up

820
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: for debate, because you could argue this is not necessarily

821
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: her story to tell. Well, it's I'm sort of like,

822
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, it doesn't bother me that much. I

823
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: like it's because it's she's not claiming that it's the

824
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: story of you and on she's you know, changing things.

825
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: She's sad like I don't know, I think that that

826
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: that it's really interesting how this got made and how

827
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm always interested in like how creator's opinions

828
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,919
Speaker 1: changed towards their own work once it's sort of out

829
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: of their hands. And the fact that like Mary Sunshine

830
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: was I didn't even realize this until I was doing

831
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: this research segment, but that Mary Sunshine was like this

832
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 1: kind of amalgamation of reporters that Marie and Dallas Watkins

833
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: thought were too easy on and kind of you know,

834
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:52,399
Speaker 1: eating up this bullshit from clearly guilty people. And also

835
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: like a way of poking at herself, uh, for how

836
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: she covered the story at the time, and almost like

837
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: a way of I don't know, like giving the finger

838
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 1: to herself in her own work. It's very it's like

839
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: complex ship because Mary Sunshine is noticeably the only woman

840
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: reporting on these cases in the movie. So right, that's

841
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: very funny. Yeah, um, but to me that kind of

842
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: just it's sort of the cornerstone of what this movie

843
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: is about, which is that And this is something that's

844
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: come up on different episodes for different movies that we've

845
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: discussed in the past, but it explores the lengths that

846
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 1: women sometimes have to go to in order to survive,

847
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: which in some cases means like flaunting their sexuality, capitalizing

848
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 1: on their quote feminine wiles, but also kind of simultaneously

849
00:53:55,280 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 1: demonstrating that they are exactly what society expects of a woman,

850
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 1: especially at this time where oh my gosh, yes, I

851
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: was seduced by you know, these sinister things like jazz

852
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 1: and booze and like putting on like that veneer of

853
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: weakness that wasn't actually there. Yeah, and then but but

854
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: but what I've always wanted was a stable home where

855
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: I can darn my husband's socks and iron his shirts

856
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 1: and and have a baby and take care of the family.

857
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: And like these are all things that are like very

858
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: obviously fabricated because that's what the public will eat up

859
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 1: because of society's expectations of women. But I guess I'm

860
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,240
Speaker 1: just like, there is commentary on that in the movie.

861
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: I just I don't I don't, well, I don't even

862
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: know really how I feel about it, because I'm like,

863
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 1: but then, but these women were murderers, so right, like

864
00:54:55,719 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: it's not so it's like that kind of hard because

865
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 1: there are there are other examples of this type of thing,

866
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 1: where like women have to kind of exploit societal expectations

867
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: or kind of exploit their own sexuality to survive because

868
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 1: they have no other choice. But they are otherwise, you know,

869
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: morally upstanding people and not murderers kind of thing. But

870
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 1: I'm just like, well, these people are also they're doing that,

871
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: but then they're also murderers, so they're a little harder

872
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: to sympathize with. But again I'm still rooting for them.

873
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: So it's complicated. I have complicated feelings about it. It's

874
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 1: that's what And I'm like, here I am in my

875
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:40,320
Speaker 1: little Chicago two thousand two cape, but like, yeah, and

876
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 1: I feel like what saves it and and the fact

877
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: that the source material was written by a woman tract

878
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 1: for me for kind of this reason where what saves

879
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: this for me is that it's based on something that

880
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,800
Speaker 1: truly happened, and so it's not it's not really I

881
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,800
Speaker 1: mean it is, it's not really a more reality tail

882
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: because it is kind of just like satire on something

883
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 1: that was happening at this time. And everyone in this

884
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 1: is terrible, Like there's no one of any gender in

885
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: this movie, except for some people would argue Amos and

886
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 1: the woman what is her name in Katerina who is

887
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: truly profoundly innocent, Like those are the only characters that

888
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: you can you know freely. And I think Katerina is

889
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: kind of like she's the character you can freely empathize

890
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,240
Speaker 1: with because she didn't do anything and she's being eaten

891
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: up for because of this language barrier, because she's not

892
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: really able to defend herself, and because she doesn't have

893
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: any money, and so it's like that is like the

894
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 1: purity character, but everyone else fucking sucks, and it's like

895
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,439
Speaker 1: doing what they need to do to get from point

896
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,280
Speaker 1: A to point B, and it's not like commendable behavior

897
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: at all. And I don't think that the movie is

898
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: like endorsing the behavior either, Like I I do appreciate

899
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: that the movie, I don't like, you can't help but

900
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 1: root for Roxy and Velment at different points even though

901
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: you're like, they definitely did it, but the way that

902
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,919
Speaker 1: they have to navigate get it, because it's like, first

903
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: of all, you need to consider why did they do

904
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: it and how you know, completely inhospitable. And I don't

905
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: even think that this is something that Maureen Dallas Watkins

906
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 1: would even agree with because she seems to feel bad

907
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 1: that she kind of like built up their personas and

908
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: the way that she did, and clearly wasn't happy that

909
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 1: they got away with murder. But but it's like contextually,

910
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, why would women kill at this time?

911
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 1: And whatever? There's a bajillion documentaries and podcasts about that

912
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: exact subject. But both Roxy and Velma's and and I mean,

913
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: the whole cell blocked Tango number, with the exception of

914
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: the one person who is innocent, is all about like

915
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: women trying to like live their life the way they

916
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: want to, being thwarted or deceived or lied to by

917
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 1: men who feel entitled to their bodies or their time

918
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 1: or their marriage or whatever it is, and then killing them.

919
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 1: Like so, I feel like the context is very clear

920
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: of like it's not endorsing murder, but it is telling you, like,

921
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 1: this is a period of time where I mean, it's like,

922
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: what options does Roxy have if if her dream is

923
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: to be a famous cabaret singer but she's got no money,

924
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: just got to vote a couple of years ago, and

925
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, what are her options? I don't know?

926
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 1: And the same goes for really, I mean every woman

927
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: in the in the story and I in what I

928
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 1: what I really wish is that because in Cell Block Tango,

929
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: and I think historically in the play as well, there

930
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: are black women and women of color included in the cast,

931
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: but you don't get to spend a lot of time

932
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 1: with them, and you don't get to examine how there

933
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: is I think that there is pretty solid commentary in

934
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: this story of white women weaponizing how white women were

935
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 1: viewed at this time. They're weaponizing white fragility by the

936
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 1: bursting into tears and just the things that you would

937
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 1: commonly associate with, you know, traditionally attractive white girls at

938
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: this time. But you don't really get to see the

939
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 1: other side of that and how, you know, how would

940
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 1: a black woman put on murderous row in Chicago be treated?

941
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: You would imagine quite differently. And I feel like there's there.

942
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 1: It sucks because there's I think that there's room for

943
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: more of those stories, especially you have. Do you remember

944
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: the pop star Maya, She's in this movie. I remember

945
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 1: Maya Maya. We were all there. I hope she's well,

946
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 1: I don't really know what she's enough to but but

947
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 1: you know, it's I don't know what my original point was.

948
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 1: I just I think that you are given the context

949
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: for why they're murdering without saying, hey, go out there

950
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: and murder someone, which is a difficult line to toe,

951
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: but I feel like the movie does it pretty well.

952
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: Sure well, that's my main criticism of the movie, where

953
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: there is this focus on these attractive white women because

954
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: that was the focus of what the press and the

955
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: public and what they were obsessed with at the time

956
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: and still now like and still now yeah, I mean,

957
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 1: the president has long been set for this. I would

958
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: have liked to have seen and maybe were this to

959
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 1: be adapted again today, we would get more focus on

960
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 1: the women of color who were on murderous row, who

961
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 1: again we see in the movie, but it's not explored

962
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: at all. It's not explored at all. Okay, So there's

963
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 1: there's one woman who her story is that she stabbed

964
01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 1: her jealous husband ten times because in like a bit

965
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 1: of jealous rage, he was like, you're screwing the milkman.

966
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 1: He ran into her knife. He ran into her knife

967
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 1: ten times. That character is played by Deirdre Goodwin Um.

968
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 1: And then there's the character who is played by Maya,

969
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 1: who had murdered a lover because he cheated on her.

970
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: Even within that song, those little snippets of their story

971
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: take up less screen time than yes, the white women's

972
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: um so we get less about them. So I was like, Okay,

973
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: who are these women? Is there? Are they based on

974
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 1: real women who were on Murderous Row during this time.

975
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: I tried as hard as I could to find some

976
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 1: information about that, but every article I found, which was

977
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 1: you know, a lot a lot has been written about this,

978
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 1: those articles, even ones that are written you know, within

979
01:01:55,160 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 1: the past few years, still only focus on Beulah and Belva, Right,

980
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 1: So I like couldn't find any information about who were

981
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 1: the other women on Murderous Row? Were there women of

982
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 1: color present, what were their stories, what were their names,

983
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 1: what were their crimes and situations? So I was just

984
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 1: disappointed that there is just not a lot of information

985
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: on that out there, probably because good records were not

986
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,919
Speaker 1: kept at the time about it, or if they were kept,

987
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 1: they weren't widely reported on in the same way that

988
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: these stories with Yeah, I totally agree, and I think

989
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 1: that that also connects back to what we were talking

990
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: about earlier, where Mama Morton is this incredibly dynamic, awesome character,

991
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: and we don't know anything about her back story, which

992
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 1: is like such a frustrating and persistent trope surrounding black

993
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 1: characters in a supporting cast, where it's like, why do

994
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,919
Speaker 1: we never see their back stories? And it's because these

995
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 1: majority white writers and directors and creators, And I mean,

996
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 1: this story from its or and all the way down

997
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 1: is controlled by white people. They're not caring enough, you know.

998
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: And and so I totally agree with you, and I

999
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: think that it's doubly shitty and a big missed opportunity.

1000
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 1: First because clearly there should be people of color who

1001
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 1: are involved behind the camera with projects like these, and

1002
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 1: certainly we're not to any significant degree for this movie.

1003
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 1: But also because with Velmat and Roxy, you see like

1004
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: a master class in weaponizing white fragility, which would have

1005
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 1: made it all the more, you know, impactful to the

1006
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: story too, to really like call that out for what

1007
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: it is, because I feel like we can watch this

1008
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 1: now and be like, oh, that is like a classic

1009
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 1: white fragility thing for white women specifically to do in

1010
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 1: these situations, but it's more characterised. I think at the

1011
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:59,720
Speaker 1: time I was more characterized. Is this is something women do,

1012
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 1: and not specifically white women who are traditionally attractive. So yeah,

1013
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it's shitty because the talent is

1014
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 1: obviously there and the story has room for it. And

1015
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 1: you know, all you need is a fucking halfway decent

1016
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 1: archival researcher, and these stories exist. So where are they?

1017
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 1: You know, where are they? There were even so I

1018
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,800
Speaker 1: not to brag or anything. Was a guest on a

1019
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 1: podcast entitled Women Who Kill, hosted by a friend of

1020
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: the cast, Kai Choice. My episode was on a serial

1021
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 1: killer named Tilly Climax, a k Mrs blue Beard, who

1022
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 1: was living in Chicago in the nine twenties. Um, I

1023
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 1: think her crimes were committed like two years before Beulah

1024
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:59,120
Speaker 1: and Belva were murdering their people. Yeah, she was ahead

1025
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 1: of the curve. She came from a poor Polish immigrant background.

1026
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 1: She was not considered attractive, which the papers commented on

1027
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 1: when they were telling her story. Like, so basically anyone

1028
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 1: who wasn't like a middle class or upper middle class,

1029
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 1: conventionally attractive white woman was, like I guess, demonized in

1030
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 1: the way you would expect a murderer to be demonized.

1031
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 1: By the press. But because these two women were again

1032
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 1: considered attractive and came from backgrounds that you know, allowed

1033
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 1: them some privilege, they just exploited that and left everyone

1034
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:54,440
Speaker 1: else in the dust. Basically, there's a first of all,

1035
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 1: that story is wild. I'm gonna listen to that. That

1036
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 1: and and I love Kaispot. Yes, it's really good. It's

1037
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 1: one of my favorite uh walking pods. Um, I have

1038
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 1: kind of a reverse story to that that. I wasn't

1039
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 1: able to super confirm this, but it does seem like

1040
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 1: the sorry her name is Katerina in the movie The Hungary,

1041
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 1: the young Hungarian woman was hung, So it seems like

1042
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 1: that story um was at least pulled in part with

1043
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 1: a very different ending from a woman named Sabella Nitti,

1044
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 1: who was an Italian immigrant who didn't speak a lot

1045
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: of English and much like you were just saying, she

1046
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: was not considered traditionally attractive. This was also and I'm like,

1047
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, deep in the hole on in Kathy

1048
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 1: podcast research, so whatever. At this time, you know, recent immigrants,

1049
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 1: even if they were white, were often considered unattractive in

1050
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and would be kind of demonized for

1051
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 1: not having literally like wasp feet er. Anything that wasn't

1052
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 1: wasp was not attractive. So Sibella Ninti was an Italian

1053
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:11,720
Speaker 1: emigrant who was accused of the murder of her missing

1054
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 1: husband and she it doesn't seem like she did it.

1055
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 1: There was no evidence, she had no motive, there was

1056
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 1: no proof. But it was the kind of case where

1057
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 1: it's like these prosecutors need to win, so we're going

1058
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 1: to and she she got sentenced to death. She doesn't

1059
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:33,440
Speaker 1: end up getting executed though, because she gets a lawyer

1060
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 1: kind of comes to her rescue and saves her by

1061
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 1: giving her a makeover because she was characterized in the process. Look,

1062
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 1: you know, she's not attractive, she she doesn't speak English.

1063
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:47,640
Speaker 1: You have all this all this stuff that is just

1064
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:51,560
Speaker 1: like aggressively mothering her in order to convict her of

1065
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 1: a crime she didn't commit. And she's saved by a

1066
01:07:55,920 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 1: makeover and being and so that, I mean it feels

1067
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 1: super duper Billy Flynn of just like bat your eyes

1068
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: at the jury. They're not smart enough to you know,

1069
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:08,000
Speaker 1: if if you look the right way and you act

1070
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 1: the right way, you can manipulate their behavior, which is

1071
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 1: like I don't know, I mean like like we've been

1072
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 1: talking about. That's a really complicated topic because it's not

1073
01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 1: like people should be able to get away with murder necessarily, right, Um,

1074
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:25,880
Speaker 1: I think unless there's an abuser involved, and then I

1075
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 1: don't really care. But um, but but but but the

1076
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 1: fact that it's there are so many real life examples

1077
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 1: from that era of that working, and so it's like, well,

1078
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 1: how toxic does a culture have to be to literally

1079
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,400
Speaker 1: be able to get away with murder pretty reliably and

1080
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:48,600
Speaker 1: consistently as long as you look the part like and that,

1081
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that is something that I think this, um,

1082
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 1: this story does pretty well, although I do agree that

1083
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: it's not it doesn't go far enough in terms of

1084
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 1: like showing different women's stories at all. Um. I didn't

1085
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 1: want to say really quickly. This is unfortunately the second

1086
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 1: time this year we have to talk about this. But

1087
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:14,599
Speaker 1: speaking of looking the part, this is yet another movie

1088
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:19,720
Speaker 1: that Renee Zellweger does a fabulous job in where so

1089
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 1: much of the coverage that she got around the time

1090
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 1: of this movie was hyper focused on her body. We

1091
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:31,839
Speaker 1: we talked about this in our Bridget Jones episode earlier

1092
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:35,560
Speaker 1: this year for the opposite reason, where Renee Zellweger. I

1093
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:38,680
Speaker 1: feel like I don't. I mean, to some degree, it

1094
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 1: just seems like unlucky timing on her part. But she

1095
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:45,920
Speaker 1: has just been so aggressively scrutinized for every part of

1096
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 1: her body. It feels like at some point where during

1097
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:50,559
Speaker 1: the early two thousands, it was very much a focus

1098
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:55,519
Speaker 1: on her weight, because she had a normal body when

1099
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 1: she played Bridget Jones, but everyone called her fat. She

1100
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 1: lost weight to play Roxy Heart and everyone said she

1101
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:08,800
Speaker 1: looked sick, and no matter what she said herself about

1102
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: how she felt about her body and how she didn't

1103
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 1: like having her body commented on, like, no one listened,

1104
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: And so I wanted to just share there there is

1105
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 1: a whole a very well sourced Vulture article that came

1106
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:24,840
Speaker 1: out a couple of years called a history of people

1107
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:28,040
Speaker 1: commenting on Rene's Alwiger's face, because that was what it

1108
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 1: became later, people aggressively scrutinizing her plastic surgery, which is

1109
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 1: just let her list the woman has two oscars? Can

1110
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:42,719
Speaker 1: you chill out? Like anyways? Um, I wanted to share

1111
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 1: this quote from her. This is from around two thousand

1112
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 1: and one, when she was playing Bridget Jones. She said

1113
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:52,360
Speaker 1: quote when the film was coming out, the question I

1114
01:10:52,479 --> 01:10:54,760
Speaker 1: was asked the most was regarding my weight. I was

1115
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:57,680
Speaker 1: followed around Heathrow Airport by a guy who wanted to

1116
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:00,680
Speaker 1: take pictures of my backside. I don't understand the obsession.

1117
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:03,800
Speaker 1: And then on the flip side, because Bridget Jones came

1118
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:05,479
Speaker 1: out in two thousand one, Chicago came out in two

1119
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 1: thousand two, and Rene's aller. I mean, she's very thin

1120
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 1: in this movie, and and people were like, in the

1121
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,120
Speaker 1: reviews for this movie, people were saying, you know, she's

1122
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:19,680
Speaker 1: shockingly gaunt, and she's setting a dangerous precedent and all

1123
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:23,720
Speaker 1: this stuff, and no one ever asked her how she

1124
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 1: felt about it. It was just like baseless comments and whatever.

1125
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 1: And so she, you know, disputed the claims that she

1126
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:35,320
Speaker 1: was unhealthily thin at the time. And it's just, I

1127
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:39,519
Speaker 1: don't know, It's just another example of like, she gave

1128
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:42,600
Speaker 1: an incredible performance, Like what is your like, shut the

1129
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 1: funk up, man, truly, So I just wanted to uh

1130
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:51,000
Speaker 1: say that again, just leave Renee alone. She does a

1131
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:54,320
Speaker 1: good job, she seems like a good person, she's very talented,

1132
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:57,760
Speaker 1: she's got two oscars. Just let her. Just let her chill.

1133
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 1: She has like a I heard I learned this on

1134
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:03,400
Speaker 1: who Weekly as well. She has a Normi boyfriend right

1135
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:06,320
Speaker 1: now and they're just hanging out on balconies together like

1136
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 1: good for Renee them love it. It's is this irony

1137
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 1: or I'm not sure how to classify this, but like

1138
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:21,960
Speaker 1: the movie Chicago being about how women's appearance is so

1139
01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:27,680
Speaker 1: heavily commented on and publicized and like the topic of

1140
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 1: so much press. Again that's one of the main components

1141
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:34,559
Speaker 1: of this movie. And then for a bunch of people

1142
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 1: to turn around and then do that very thing to

1143
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 1: the actor's body, right like do you not do you?

1144
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:46,840
Speaker 1: Do you hear yourself? It's I'm like, maybe Marie and

1145
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: Dallas Watkins was right, maybe as She's like, people clearly

1146
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:53,599
Speaker 1: aren't getting what I'm trying to say here because it's

1147
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:56,639
Speaker 1: like the same breath. No one's learned a damn thing

1148
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,360
Speaker 1: in eighty years. Yeah, yeah, It's like and unfortunately watching

1149
01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 1: I mean these murder cases or nearly a hundred years

1150
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:06,240
Speaker 1: old at this point, and we see this same dynamic

1151
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:09,440
Speaker 1: exists between the press and the public and the spectacle

1152
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 1: like it's still alive and well, and like with the

1153
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:18,760
Speaker 1: exception of like the communication channels basically unaltered, which is

1154
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 1: so depressing, and I'm like, God of all its it

1155
01:13:22,479 --> 01:13:24,680
Speaker 1: sucks that this is a timeless story, but it like

1156
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 1: kind of is. Yeah, I wanted to shut out when,

1157
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:30,439
Speaker 1: I mean this shout out is not the correct thing here,

1158
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 1: but just when when last sort of point on how

1159
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 1: whiteness and traditional attractiveness is clearly weaponized in this story.

1160
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 1: The phrase that came to mind and I had to

1161
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:45,680
Speaker 1: sort of go back in my head and be like,

1162
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:47,760
Speaker 1: where did I hear this? Where did this come from?

1163
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 1: Was the two pretty for prison? Have you heard that

1164
01:13:51,720 --> 01:13:55,679
Speaker 1: phrase before? I don't think I have. It's a phrase

1165
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:58,519
Speaker 1: that I couldn't remember when I when I first heard it,

1166
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 1: and I sort of basically it ties into I think

1167
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 1: you see it very present in Roxy's behavior, where she's like,

1168
01:14:05,479 --> 01:14:07,920
Speaker 1: you can't sentence me to death. I can't be in prison.

1169
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:11,519
Speaker 1: I'm too pretty for prison. And it's it's this very

1170
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:15,479
Speaker 1: given that Roxy is a murderer. I'm not pro prison

1171
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 1: at all, but it's given that she's a murderer. You know,

1172
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:20,240
Speaker 1: she's trying to get away with it on the basis

1173
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:25,280
Speaker 1: of being traditionally attractive, white woman. Right, And so the

1174
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 1: too pretty for prison phrase comes from two thousand and five.

1175
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:32,560
Speaker 1: It's based on a case that is absolutely horrific and

1176
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:35,599
Speaker 1: I don't want to rehash it here, but it essentially

1177
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 1: comes down to a female teacher who sexually abused a student,

1178
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 1: and while on trial, that was the phrase that was

1179
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:49,639
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was evoked in the courtroom,

1180
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 1: but that was the phrase that was connected to this case.

1181
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 1: But all that to say, like Chicago is based on

1182
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 1: cases from this phrase too pretty for prison is it

1183
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:03,000
Speaker 1: was a ascribed to similar behavior that was happening eighty

1184
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:11,360
Speaker 1: years later, like it's it's depressing, that's some real Karen ship, Yes, Karen.

1185
01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:17,560
Speaker 1: And then something you know, it's white privilege. It's hot privilege.

1186
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 1: What's the phrase for that? You know what? I think? Yeah,

1187
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 1: we don't talk about hot privilege enough. I think as

1188
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:26,439
Speaker 1: a as a culture it is discussed. I don't know

1189
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 1: that we've we've discussed it on the show in depth,

1190
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 1: but it definitely does seem like it's at play in

1191
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:38,840
Speaker 1: this story. Yeah, it is weird because, like, well, it

1192
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:41,479
Speaker 1: also kind of speaks to the one of the double

1193
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:46,800
Speaker 1: standards that are voisted on women, where You're expected to

1194
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:51,920
Speaker 1: be extremely attractive and really sexy, but not too sexy

1195
01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:54,679
Speaker 1: because you don't want anyone to think you're a slut.

1196
01:15:55,920 --> 01:16:00,280
Speaker 1: Like the exact line that they're towing here is like right,

1197
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:02,280
Speaker 1: so it's like you like, you have you have to like,

1198
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 1: you know, look a certain way and adhere to every

1199
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:10,840
Speaker 1: Western standard of beauty. But you also have to be

1200
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:14,680
Speaker 1: a loyal and devoted wife, and you have to be

1201
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:19,200
Speaker 1: gregnant with a baby and be ready to make a

1202
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:23,360
Speaker 1: home for your husband and for your children, and to

1203
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:27,960
Speaker 1: iron his shirts and to do all that stuff. And that,

1204
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:31,160
Speaker 1: to me is like the most effective thing that this

1205
01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:34,880
Speaker 1: movie accomplishes in terms of just like pointing that out,

1206
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:40,360
Speaker 1: making that commentary. Similarly like the idea of oh, these

1207
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:46,320
Speaker 1: these delicate women were seduced by these evil forces of

1208
01:16:47,080 --> 01:16:52,880
Speaker 1: of such evil things as a genre of music and alcohol,

1209
01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 1: which yeah, just again the these such rigid gender roles

1210
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:01,720
Speaker 1: and and standard that are placed on women in terms

1211
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:06,000
Speaker 1: of like you can never misbehave, you can never drink

1212
01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:11,640
Speaker 1: an alcohol. You have to also be really pretty and attractive,

1213
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 1: but you only can have eyes for your husband, and

1214
01:17:16,160 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 1: just like all of these standards, it's like the classic

1215
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 1: it's an impossible bar to clear. So many of their

1216
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:25,840
Speaker 1: expectations are at odds with each other because it's to

1217
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,200
Speaker 1: be demure, but you also have to be wildly sexy,

1218
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:30,960
Speaker 1: and depending on the situation, you can be punished for

1219
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:34,320
Speaker 1: being either of those things. And right and how yeah

1220
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:39,240
Speaker 1: like and how hot I mean whatever, like being traditionally attractive. Like.

1221
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 1: There's sides to that coin as well, where it's it's

1222
01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:45,800
Speaker 1: I think that I mean. Obviously, in some of the

1223
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:48,800
Speaker 1: cases we just described, women who are considered to not

1224
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:53,360
Speaker 1: be attractive, apparently you can just kill them, uh for

1225
01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:58,599
Speaker 1: not doing murders. Um, that's an oversimplification. But but then

1226
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:01,160
Speaker 1: on the other side, it's you know, women who do

1227
01:18:01,320 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 1: kind of fall into that traditionally attractive whatever are often

1228
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 1: hyper sexualized against their will and harassed, and so it's just, um,

1229
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:15,400
Speaker 1: it's impossible. There's just so many ways to lose in

1230
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:20,320
Speaker 1: this world. Uh, it's interesting. I just learned something that

1231
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:25,040
Speaker 1: maybe smile please sure, sorry please still yelling? Um, well,

1232
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 1: he's wishing you happy birthday. He's like, I love you, mama. Anyways.

1233
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:35,160
Speaker 1: Jerry or Bach played Billy Flynn in the original Broadway

1234
01:18:35,160 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 1: production How Fun Is That? In the goodness and Cheetah

1235
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:49,240
Speaker 1: Rivera played Velma Kelly like icons icons. So I was

1236
01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:53,240
Speaker 1: just happy to learn that Jerry Orbach and Richard Gear

1237
01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:57,640
Speaker 1: played the same part. I like that. I'd like that too. Um,

1238
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:03,559
Speaker 1: Richard Gear kills it as Billy Flynn. He really is amazing,

1239
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:07,400
Speaker 1: And that's really him tap dancing. That's really him tap dance. Yes,

1240
01:19:07,479 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 1: I watched all the featurettes and he said it was

1241
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 1: kind of funny because it was like he had sung.

1242
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:15,840
Speaker 1: He he like had sung before. Um, and so, and

1243
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:19,000
Speaker 1: I think that he and John c Riley were I

1244
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 1: think the main members of the cast that didn't have

1245
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 1: dance training that needed to dance, and they both tried

1246
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:29,760
Speaker 1: so hard, and they both were talking about how they're

1247
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:31,960
Speaker 1: like it's intimidating being in the same room with Rob

1248
01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:34,439
Speaker 1: Marshall he was in Cats and I can't even tap

1249
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:36,920
Speaker 1: and like all this stuff. And then there's videos of

1250
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:40,880
Speaker 1: like Rob Marshall like taking it really slow with John

1251
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:46,360
Speaker 1: c Riley and like it's just such wholesome footage. Um,

1252
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:49,400
Speaker 1: that's so. I don't know. I just love when choreographers

1253
01:19:49,439 --> 01:19:52,200
Speaker 1: direct because it's like when you once you see like

1254
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:55,680
Speaker 1: footage of a choreographer directing a musical movie. You're like, oh, yeah,

1255
01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:58,880
Speaker 1: how else would you even do that? Like what you're

1256
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:01,240
Speaker 1: just gonna be like, You're like, if you can't do

1257
01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:05,040
Speaker 1: it yourself, don't tell me to do it. But Rob Marshall,

1258
01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 1: like he's fucking on it. He's doing all that jazz

1259
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:12,200
Speaker 1: right next to Katherine's Ada Jones, And it's exciting that

1260
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:15,880
Speaker 1: there is like a whole half hour making of documentary

1261
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:18,800
Speaker 1: that's on YouTube as well that if you're a Chicago head,

1262
01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:22,800
Speaker 1: I'd recommend it because it's just such a blast. Who

1263
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:26,000
Speaker 1: do you think Rob Marshall played in Cats when he

1264
01:20:26,080 --> 01:20:29,520
Speaker 1: got injured? Do you think it was like Mr Mustaphiles

1265
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:36,320
Speaker 1: or rum tum Tugger? Thanks the question, which of the

1266
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:39,559
Speaker 1: Cats is doing the kind of movement? I mean, they're

1267
01:20:39,560 --> 01:20:42,760
Speaker 1: all kind of doing wild movements, but like, who is

1268
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,040
Speaker 1: most likely to herniate a disc? I feel like that's

1269
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:48,120
Speaker 1: some rum tum Tugger ship to be herniating a whole disk.

1270
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:51,440
Speaker 1: Who's your favorite one again? With the pants and the suspender?

1271
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:55,080
Speaker 1: My god, skin Ble Shanks. I feel like it could

1272
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:58,400
Speaker 1: have Marshall. Skimble Shanks would have done a good Skimble Shanks.

1273
01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:03,200
Speaker 1: I wonder it doesn't his His Wikipedia page is very

1274
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 1: vague about it. They're just like he was in Cats

1275
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 1: and herniated a desk. No, we're not taking any more

1276
01:21:08,520 --> 01:21:11,639
Speaker 1: questions at this time. We need more information. I'm like, okay,

1277
01:21:11,720 --> 01:21:15,639
Speaker 1: he was a Jelical I need more info which one,

1278
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:19,040
Speaker 1: which one? It matters which jelical cat was he though

1279
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:22,040
Speaker 1: he could he could have been Monchu Strap. You know,

1280
01:21:23,240 --> 01:21:25,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's a lot of cats that are

1281
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:28,439
Speaker 1: at high risk for herniating a disk. Uh, So it

1282
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:30,800
Speaker 1: doesn't really it's so funny. It's like, oh, members of

1283
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:32,599
Speaker 1: the Cats, cats that could have her needed a disk.

1284
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:36,840
Speaker 1: That really doesn't narrow it down at all. They're all

1285
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:41,519
Speaker 1: over the place. Um do anything else for this movie,

1286
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:45,479
Speaker 1: I mean, we touched on it briefly, but just the

1287
01:21:46,120 --> 01:21:55,160
Speaker 1: relationship between Roxy and Velma being highly antagonistic for most,

1288
01:21:55,280 --> 01:21:57,200
Speaker 1: if not all, of the movie, because even at the

1289
01:21:57,320 --> 01:22:00,519
Speaker 1: end when they are working together, we yeah, I get

1290
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:04,360
Speaker 1: why they don't like each other, right, yeah, because well,

1291
01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:08,920
Speaker 1: so like Velma is mean to Roxy at first for

1292
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:12,080
Speaker 1: what appears to be a petty reason. She's well, I

1293
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:14,439
Speaker 1: don't even know, it's maybe it's not even any reason.

1294
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:18,040
Speaker 1: She's just mean to her because she's like the newbie there.

1295
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:22,439
Speaker 1: Unless I'm misreading or misremembering something, I don't think you are. No,

1296
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 1: I think that it's it's I was really interested to

1297
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:27,920
Speaker 1: learn that the two, like the too real life people,

1298
01:22:28,360 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 1: seemed to get along just fine, because it seems like

1299
01:22:31,520 --> 01:22:37,000
Speaker 1: the the logic that this story is subscribing to. And

1300
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:39,040
Speaker 1: maybe I'm making too many excuses for it. I mean,

1301
01:22:39,080 --> 01:22:41,360
Speaker 1: it's like they are just our two female leads are

1302
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:44,560
Speaker 1: being put at odds the way I guess I I

1303
01:22:44,800 --> 01:22:47,719
Speaker 1: had like solidified it in my head over the years

1304
01:22:48,040 --> 01:22:49,600
Speaker 1: that maybe I need to question a little bit, But

1305
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:54,240
Speaker 1: like was that I don't know the the reason that

1306
01:22:54,400 --> 01:22:58,360
Speaker 1: women are often put in these antagonistic situations, and the

1307
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 1: internal logic of this story is there's only room for

1308
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:03,960
Speaker 1: one woman in the headlines at a time, and so

1309
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:07,400
Speaker 1: it's like this, it almost feels like they're viewing it

1310
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 1: as a competition, and like why would I you know,

1311
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:12,840
Speaker 1: it's almost like reality show logic of like I didn't

1312
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:15,200
Speaker 1: come here to make friends. I came here to be

1313
01:23:15,240 --> 01:23:18,920
Speaker 1: the most famous murderer ever or whatever. That was kind

1314
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:21,080
Speaker 1: of but it was like, but that's not even what

1315
01:23:21,240 --> 01:23:23,720
Speaker 1: happened in real life, Like that was what happened in

1316
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 1: real life, I would sort of let it go. But

1317
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:28,320
Speaker 1: that's not so why add that in Nor is it

1318
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:33,120
Speaker 1: what happens at the very beginning of their antagonistic relationship.

1319
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:36,800
Speaker 1: I could maybe understand if right when Roxy got there

1320
01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:40,000
Speaker 1: and she was like already the hottest, like the talk

1321
01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:42,719
Speaker 1: of the town kind of thing, right, she's not at first,

1322
01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:47,360
Speaker 1: where then Velma would feel threatened and that would motivate

1323
01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:50,599
Speaker 1: her being cruel to Roxy. But that's not what happens.

1324
01:23:51,240 --> 01:23:57,559
Speaker 1: Roxy doesn't take Velma's spotlight until later. So it first

1325
01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:01,040
Speaker 1: Velma is mean to Roxy for no reason, and when

1326
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:05,160
Speaker 1: Roxy is like mean back, that does seem more motivated,

1327
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:08,320
Speaker 1: because that's sort of like a retaliation thing, like, well,

1328
01:24:08,360 --> 01:24:09,840
Speaker 1: you were mean to me, I'm going to be mean

1329
01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:11,880
Speaker 1: to you now. But you're right, Yeah, the beginning is

1330
01:24:11,960 --> 01:24:15,639
Speaker 1: not very motivated by much. Yeah, and then they continue

1331
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:19,240
Speaker 1: to not get along. But then it's all just it's

1332
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:21,880
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying in terms of because we

1333
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, we've we've talked about this to a lot

1334
01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:29,480
Speaker 1: where like especially when men right women being extremely antagonistic

1335
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:32,120
Speaker 1: and like petty to each other, they never consider the

1336
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:35,160
Speaker 1: context of why that would be because if that does happen,

1337
01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:39,280
Speaker 1: the context is usually well, women are only afforded so

1338
01:24:39,439 --> 01:24:42,640
Speaker 1: many spaces or our spots or there's only room for

1339
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:45,760
Speaker 1: one woman. So women do feel like they have to

1340
01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:50,160
Speaker 1: be competitive and antagonistic toward each other too, again like

1341
01:24:50,280 --> 01:24:58,559
Speaker 1: just secure their survival. But that isn't what's happening it right,

1342
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:02,639
Speaker 1: it does. It does become that way with because yeah,

1343
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:06,200
Speaker 1: like Roxy takes Vilma's spotlight and then so they're kind

1344
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:09,519
Speaker 1: of like constantly battling for the spotlight. And then when

1345
01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:15,880
Speaker 1: when the Roxy starts like steal Velma's like court deceptions

1346
01:25:16,160 --> 01:25:20,720
Speaker 1: or whatever, like the garter and the enemy, Like I

1347
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:22,479
Speaker 1: get why they have become enemies. But but that is

1348
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:25,760
Speaker 1: a good point that it's not super motivated, especially because

1349
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:30,840
Speaker 1: Velma is like who Roxy wants to be at the beginning,

1350
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:33,240
Speaker 1: and you do see like, yeah, I mean I think

1351
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:35,720
Speaker 1: the Velma is like being I don't know, I mean

1352
01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:38,360
Speaker 1: I think there's like there's multiple ways to look at

1353
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:41,439
Speaker 1: it where it's like, yeah, Velma is kind of is

1354
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:44,759
Speaker 1: like pretty arrogant at the beginning of the story because

1355
01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:46,840
Speaker 1: she is the famous one at the beginning of the story,

1356
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:49,200
Speaker 1: and why would I talk to you, I'm the famous one,

1357
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:51,800
Speaker 1: which Roxy then does the exact same thing to her

1358
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:55,240
Speaker 1: later on. It doesn't feel good. That's sort of Velma's

1359
01:25:55,479 --> 01:25:59,360
Speaker 1: arc of like this is very temporary, and I am

1360
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:01,880
Speaker 1: a fool. Well if I think that, you know, I

1361
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:05,280
Speaker 1: can just you know, be a famous murderer forever. So

1362
01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:08,240
Speaker 1: and I and I do like how it ends, because

1363
01:26:08,280 --> 01:26:10,120
Speaker 1: in real life it's like kind of a bummer. I think,

1364
01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:14,680
Speaker 1: like Beulah died of like tuberculosis, tuberculosis like pretty soon

1365
01:26:14,760 --> 01:26:17,479
Speaker 1: after getting like so that I'm glad that they didn't

1366
01:26:17,520 --> 01:26:19,760
Speaker 1: do that, but I do, like, I mean, just to

1367
01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:23,280
Speaker 1: tie up the story, how they end up working together

1368
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:27,439
Speaker 1: and realizing that they it's like they're still terrible people, right,

1369
01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:31,800
Speaker 1: like they're still murderers, but but that they're stronger as

1370
01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:35,080
Speaker 1: a unit than they were separately, and that they needed

1371
01:26:35,320 --> 01:26:38,640
Speaker 1: to just in the way. That's like the world very

1372
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:40,920
Speaker 1: much wanted to forget them and move on to the

1373
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:43,200
Speaker 1: next thing, and they had to find a way to

1374
01:26:43,720 --> 01:26:46,439
Speaker 1: remain relevant so they could continue to live the kinds

1375
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:49,040
Speaker 1: of lives they wanted to live. Where it was like,

1376
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:52,840
Speaker 1: you know, Roxy could have gone back with Amos, Velma

1377
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:56,519
Speaker 1: could have settled down and and you know, lined up

1378
01:26:56,560 --> 01:26:59,320
Speaker 1: with the societal expectations of the time. Neither of them

1379
01:26:59,400 --> 01:27:02,200
Speaker 1: want that, and so they find a way to put

1380
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:04,960
Speaker 1: their differences aside and make that happen for themselves. And

1381
01:27:05,160 --> 01:27:08,280
Speaker 1: I think that that is like interesting. It doesn't make

1382
01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:12,000
Speaker 1: it noble and necessarily because they still fucking suck, But

1383
01:27:12,120 --> 01:27:13,720
Speaker 1: I but I like and and then the end, I mean,

1384
01:27:13,800 --> 01:27:16,040
Speaker 1: it's almost like a little ham fisted watching it now,

1385
01:27:16,200 --> 01:27:19,680
Speaker 1: but we're like, Roxy's like, this couldn't have happened without you,

1386
01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:22,880
Speaker 1: because it's like, yeah, no one would give a shit

1387
01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:27,040
Speaker 1: about them, if, you know, if the media circus wasn't

1388
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:30,800
Speaker 1: the way that it is. So I don't know, Yeah,

1389
01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:33,280
Speaker 1: their relationship, I think that I think that the story

1390
01:27:33,320 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 1: would be kind of generally improved and would work. Could

1391
01:27:37,479 --> 01:27:39,600
Speaker 1: you could you could say the exact same things that

1392
01:27:39,680 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 1: this story is trying to say and have them get

1393
01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:46,720
Speaker 1: along and so adding in that conflict even if, like

1394
01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:50,000
Speaker 1: you're saying, like even if they I don't know, betray

1395
01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:52,559
Speaker 1: each other and piss each other off later, which makes

1396
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:54,519
Speaker 1: sense in the context of the story in the in

1397
01:27:54,560 --> 01:27:57,640
Speaker 1: the historical period, seeing them get along, I don't think

1398
01:27:57,680 --> 01:27:59,559
Speaker 1: you lose anything And if in fact, it might even

1399
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:02,240
Speaker 1: raise this stakes if they start as friends and then

1400
01:28:02,320 --> 01:28:04,800
Speaker 1: it's like this media circus of well, only one of

1401
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:08,479
Speaker 1: you can be famous enough to not be convicted of murder,

1402
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:11,640
Speaker 1: Like that's higher stakes. It doesn't seem like Roxy has

1403
01:28:11,680 --> 01:28:13,439
Speaker 1: any female friends in her life, and it seems like

1404
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:16,599
Speaker 1: Velma's only friend she killed because that was her sister,

1405
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:20,160
Speaker 1: and so there's I was like, Okay, maybe that is

1406
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:22,400
Speaker 1: actually a stronger story choice, because then you're not just

1407
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:27,439
Speaker 1: losing you know, your your life, You're losing your only friend,

1408
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:31,760
Speaker 1: your friend. That's basically the plot of All About Eve,

1409
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:36,600
Speaker 1: where that's true. They start out on good terms and

1410
01:28:36,720 --> 01:28:39,479
Speaker 1: then I don't even remember the character's names now, but

1411
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:41,720
Speaker 1: one of them starts to get jealous of the other one,

1412
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:44,920
Speaker 1: and then the start well, one of them is definitely Eve.

1413
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:48,160
Speaker 1: It's the one that isn't Bettie Davis, right, Um, And

1414
01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:51,479
Speaker 1: I just don't remember which one is Eve? Is Eve

1415
01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:54,479
Speaker 1: Bettie Davis or she was the younger woman? Okay, right,

1416
01:28:54,479 --> 01:28:58,280
Speaker 1: you're right, I'm butchering remembering. But I love that movie,

1417
01:28:58,360 --> 01:28:59,920
Speaker 1: and yet I don't know what the characters ain't are?

1418
01:29:00,080 --> 01:29:04,720
Speaker 1: Um story of my life? But yeah, I mean that

1419
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:06,439
Speaker 1: now that we're kind of talking that through, that would

1420
01:29:06,439 --> 01:29:08,280
Speaker 1: be a more interesting choice. And then it would, and

1421
01:29:08,320 --> 01:29:10,240
Speaker 1: then you can keep the ending as is and have

1422
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:14,240
Speaker 1: them reconcile and get that friendship back by being like, oh,

1423
01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:16,960
Speaker 1: that media circus was bullshit. Let's take this on the

1424
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:20,320
Speaker 1: road and make money off of all these losers who

1425
01:29:20,479 --> 01:29:24,400
Speaker 1: vaguely remember that we've murdered people. Like, yeah, whatever, that

1426
01:29:24,560 --> 01:29:28,040
Speaker 1: rocks fine. I like that better. Yeah, this just felt

1427
01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:31,479
Speaker 1: like the writer was like, it's a movie, we have

1428
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:34,559
Speaker 1: to throw more tension in it. Where could a source

1429
01:29:34,600 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 1: of tension be? Oh, of course between two women, because

1430
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:42,960
Speaker 1: women are petty and jealous and bitter, right, And it's

1431
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:47,519
Speaker 1: not like this story lax tension, like like there's kind

1432
01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:50,160
Speaker 1: of no need for it. It's like there's an incredible

1433
01:29:50,160 --> 01:29:54,200
Speaker 1: amount of tension between Roxy and basically everyone that she's

1434
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:58,400
Speaker 1: ever met, because she's a pretty selfish and abrasive person.

1435
01:29:59,200 --> 01:30:02,240
Speaker 1: Um that said, and I mean it's again, it's like

1436
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:05,200
Speaker 1: she's such a tough character because she fucking sucks. But

1437
01:30:05,439 --> 01:30:08,920
Speaker 1: like you're like, okay, you know, to an extent, I

1438
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:11,519
Speaker 1: get it, and I do like like the moment where

1439
01:30:12,160 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 1: Roxy is it works against her, but she's so quick

1440
01:30:15,240 --> 01:30:20,440
Speaker 1: to call out Billy Flynn for being a Charlatan asshole,

1441
01:30:21,200 --> 01:30:22,800
Speaker 1: and it blows up in her face. But it is

1442
01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:25,519
Speaker 1: kind of cathartic to see, you know, someone who's so

1443
01:30:25,880 --> 01:30:29,599
Speaker 1: clearly in it for money and cloud and doesn't actually

1444
01:30:29,680 --> 01:30:32,599
Speaker 1: care about the women that he's defending, to see her

1445
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:35,759
Speaker 1: just be like, what fuck you? You know you're fired?

1446
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:39,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, um speaking of people who are in

1447
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 1: it for the money, I thought, because I didn't super

1448
01:30:42,439 --> 01:30:45,799
Speaker 1: remember this movie until going back to prep for this episode,

1449
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:50,880
Speaker 1: Mama Morton, she is sort of presented at first as

1450
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:53,640
Speaker 1: like a big hard ass, and I thought, oh, I

1451
01:30:53,720 --> 01:30:55,800
Speaker 1: wonder if there's going to be a lot of antagonism

1452
01:30:56,160 --> 01:31:01,240
Speaker 1: between her and the prisoners, because that also would have

1453
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:07,879
Speaker 1: felt like a unexpected choice to introduce tension into the situation.

1454
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:11,360
Speaker 1: But I was kind of surprised that there isn't much

1455
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:14,519
Speaker 1: tension there. Like she at first she's like, oh, something

1456
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:17,200
Speaker 1: bothering you? Well, I don't give a ship. Also, I

1457
01:31:17,320 --> 01:31:21,960
Speaker 1: love money. But then after that, like she seems pretty

1458
01:31:22,080 --> 01:31:26,559
Speaker 1: willing to help the people who have money, so she's

1459
01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:29,320
Speaker 1: like a capitalist, and we don't love to see that

1460
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:32,360
Speaker 1: super capitalist feel like she I mean, I feel like

1461
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:35,880
Speaker 1: she's just kind of a stand in for like, I'm

1462
01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:39,479
Speaker 1: on the side of whoever is paying me. She's she's

1463
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:43,440
Speaker 1: not really on the side of the prison industrial complex

1464
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:47,680
Speaker 1: because she's accepting money from murderers, but she'll take a

1465
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:50,640
Speaker 1: check from the prison industrial complex. Like yeah, she's just

1466
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:54,880
Speaker 1: like a she she's lawless. It's interesting that they cast

1467
01:31:55,120 --> 01:31:59,040
Speaker 1: a black woman in that role. I agree, considering the

1468
01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:06,560
Speaker 1: prison industrial complex disproportionate effects and abuses black people. So

1469
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:11,360
Speaker 1: that was confusing. Yeah, I do think that it is

1470
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:17,720
Speaker 1: uh telling and bizarre. I mean, it's it's what I mean,

1471
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:20,439
Speaker 1: It's like, can I picture anyone in this movie except

1472
01:32:20,479 --> 01:32:24,440
Speaker 1: Queen Latifa in this role? I know, like she's fucking incredible.

1473
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:30,640
Speaker 1: And what is interesting based on a rapid google we

1474
01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:34,000
Speaker 1: just paused the podcast to do that this role was

1475
01:32:34,240 --> 01:32:38,680
Speaker 1: generally played by white women up until Queen Latifa was

1476
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:41,920
Speaker 1: cast in this role, and since then the role is

1477
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 1: generally played by black women. I believe that the same

1478
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:49,160
Speaker 1: actress has been playing Mom and Morton on Broadway for

1479
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:52,519
Speaker 1: some time. Yeah, a famous black Broadway actress. I don't

1480
01:32:52,560 --> 01:32:56,439
Speaker 1: know Broadway actresses. I'm sorry, um, but but all that

1481
01:32:56,560 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 1: to say yeah, that, uh, that doesn't seem to be

1482
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:04,120
Speaker 1: in the d n A of the part. But then gradually,

1483
01:33:04,200 --> 01:33:08,479
Speaker 1: because of Queen Latifa's casting and performance, became kind of

1484
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:11,439
Speaker 1: integral to the part. Yeah. As of so for the

1485
01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:13,800
Speaker 1: last ten years or so, Mom and Morton has been

1486
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:20,000
Speaker 1: played by black actresses on Broadway. Um, yeah, not an

1487
01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:27,160
Speaker 1: ideal part too, right, I mean, I love Queen Latifa.

1488
01:33:27,800 --> 01:33:32,679
Speaker 1: She steals every scene she's in that part where like good,

1489
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:38,200
Speaker 1: she's telling Roxy, oh you're we're actually taking you to

1490
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 1: the special section murderous row, and then Roxy's like, oh

1491
01:33:43,560 --> 01:33:46,799
Speaker 1: is that nicer? And then it was a look to Moreton,

1492
01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:49,639
Speaker 1: like looks over her shoulder to like a prison guard

1493
01:33:49,760 --> 01:33:53,439
Speaker 1: or something, and it's just like this bitch basically right

1494
01:33:54,680 --> 01:33:57,080
Speaker 1: and there. I mean, I yeah, I do as far

1495
01:33:57,120 --> 01:33:59,760
Speaker 1: as that character goes, and I think that your point

1496
01:33:59,880 --> 01:34:03,479
Speaker 1: is extremely valid. But her like lawlessness of like she

1497
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:06,240
Speaker 1: buys into the Roxy hype, but then the second it's

1498
01:34:06,280 --> 01:34:09,599
Speaker 1: not working in her favor anymore, she's like the blonde

1499
01:34:09,640 --> 01:34:12,120
Speaker 1: wig is in the trash and you know, her allegiances

1500
01:34:12,200 --> 01:34:17,120
Speaker 1: with whoever can make her the most money. Yeah, so yeah, yeah,

1501
01:34:17,600 --> 01:34:21,960
Speaker 1: do you have anything else? I think that is this

1502
01:34:22,520 --> 01:34:27,479
Speaker 1: movie does pass the Bechtel test. I'm sure of it. Yes, Oh,

1503
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:32,680
Speaker 1: it's super does They're often they're often talking about killing men,

1504
01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:35,120
Speaker 1: but for us that has the test. But but even

1505
01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:38,000
Speaker 1: without it, I mean, it does pass plenty of times,

1506
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:43,280
Speaker 1: between Velmot and Roxy, between Roxy and Mama Morton, between

1507
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:47,639
Speaker 1: Velmot and Mama Morton, between Um. Actually there's a good question.

1508
01:34:47,720 --> 01:34:50,519
Speaker 1: I don't know how many of the prisoners are actually named.

1509
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:54,920
Speaker 1: I don't think that many. Yeah, if any, because I'm

1510
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:57,280
Speaker 1: racking my brain and I don't know if we get

1511
01:34:57,439 --> 01:35:01,080
Speaker 1: names for an even not let me fact check that.

1512
01:35:01,200 --> 01:35:03,679
Speaker 1: I mean, it's possible that it exists in the state.

1513
01:35:03,760 --> 01:35:06,439
Speaker 1: I don't know in terms of adaptation, but I don't

1514
01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:11,080
Speaker 1: believe you learn their names in the um in the movie.

1515
01:35:11,479 --> 01:35:13,840
Speaker 1: You know so. But but that said, it does pass.

1516
01:35:13,840 --> 01:35:16,400
Speaker 1: I think it also passes between Mary Sunshine and Roxy.

1517
01:35:16,600 --> 01:35:20,599
Speaker 1: Like there are a number of dynamic, highly motivated female

1518
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:22,560
Speaker 1: characters who talk to each other about all sorts of

1519
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:27,040
Speaker 1: ship in this movie. But as far as our nipple

1520
01:35:27,080 --> 01:35:30,800
Speaker 1: scale in which we rate the movie examining it through

1521
01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:38,240
Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens, this is another tricky one. While

1522
01:35:38,360 --> 01:35:44,680
Speaker 1: it is commenting on and providing satire on these like

1523
01:35:45,000 --> 01:35:50,040
Speaker 1: double standards that are foisted upon women. It makes the

1524
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:56,920
Speaker 1: same mistake of only focusing on the narratives of middle class,

1525
01:35:57,640 --> 01:36:02,160
Speaker 1: conventionally attractive white him in, which is also what the

1526
01:36:02,240 --> 01:36:05,960
Speaker 1: media was doing at the time. So I like, again,

1527
01:36:06,040 --> 01:36:10,880
Speaker 1: the precedent was set, so I understand that that's sort

1528
01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:15,160
Speaker 1: of why the adaptations went that way as well, But

1529
01:36:15,320 --> 01:36:18,760
Speaker 1: I don't like it. I would it would be more

1530
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:22,120
Speaker 1: interesting to me, For example, if dynamics were explored in

1531
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:25,639
Speaker 1: terms of, yes, there are these attractive white women who

1532
01:36:25,880 --> 01:36:31,120
Speaker 1: are exploiting the privilege that they have to get exonerated

1533
01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:35,439
Speaker 1: from their crimes that they are clearly guilty of, versus

1534
01:36:36,320 --> 01:36:40,479
Speaker 1: the women of color who were right alongside them, who

1535
01:36:40,600 --> 01:36:45,479
Speaker 1: didn't have those same privileges to exploit, and how what like,

1536
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:49,000
Speaker 1: what are their outcomes? I'd like to know. So I

1537
01:36:49,120 --> 01:36:52,120
Speaker 1: think that, um, you know, in an ideal world, the

1538
01:36:52,200 --> 01:36:55,800
Speaker 1: movie would have explored that more. But that's also not

1539
01:36:56,040 --> 01:37:00,559
Speaker 1: what people in two thousand two were really concerned about doing. Yeah,

1540
01:37:00,720 --> 01:37:03,720
Speaker 1: it's it's a bummer, But if this were to ever

1541
01:37:03,880 --> 01:37:07,800
Speaker 1: be adapted again, and you know, it seems like this

1542
01:37:07,920 --> 01:37:13,240
Speaker 1: movie gets adapted every forty years, or something. So yeah,

1543
01:37:13,280 --> 01:37:16,000
Speaker 1: against against the wishes of the person who wrote the play.

1544
01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:18,640
Speaker 1: Go figure right, because it's all it was also a

1545
01:37:18,840 --> 01:37:24,840
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties seven I want to say, Cecil be Silent movie. Yeah,

1546
01:37:25,800 --> 01:37:28,840
Speaker 1: who I wasn't able to track down. It seems like

1547
01:37:28,960 --> 01:37:31,160
Speaker 1: kind of a rare I don't know, I didn't I

1548
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:33,439
Speaker 1: wasn't able to find it. Yeah, I mean, it's just

1549
01:37:33,520 --> 01:37:36,040
Speaker 1: like a super popular story and unfortunately it's like, I mean,

1550
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:41,080
Speaker 1: it's still relevant. But if I completely agree that it's

1551
01:37:41,280 --> 01:37:44,240
Speaker 1: you know, kind of begging to be updated and modernized,

1552
01:37:44,320 --> 01:37:47,360
Speaker 1: and the issues that it's like, you know whatever, it's

1553
01:37:47,439 --> 01:37:51,200
Speaker 1: extra frustrating because it's like all either the source material

1554
01:37:51,280 --> 01:37:54,640
Speaker 1: and the characters are there, you're just not using them.

1555
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:57,599
Speaker 1: You're not exploring their right exploring them. They're just kind

1556
01:37:57,600 --> 01:38:02,280
Speaker 1: of left there. We only know that a woman stabbed

1557
01:38:02,479 --> 01:38:06,040
Speaker 1: her husband ten times and another woman. Good for her,

1558
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:11,080
Speaker 1: and it's good for but I need more information, yeah, exactly.

1559
01:38:11,520 --> 01:38:17,080
Speaker 1: So um, for those reasons, I'll give the movie a three.

1560
01:38:17,680 --> 01:38:19,960
Speaker 1: It's getting some extra points because it is a movie

1561
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:23,880
Speaker 1: I very much enjoy. It is very watchable. The song

1562
01:38:24,000 --> 01:38:30,880
Speaker 1: and dance numbers are spectacular, So three nipples and they

1563
01:38:31,360 --> 01:38:37,520
Speaker 1: go to the women whose stories have been unrepresented, revolving

1564
01:38:37,600 --> 01:38:43,439
Speaker 1: around this like microcosm of lady murderers in the jazz

1565
01:38:43,479 --> 01:38:48,080
Speaker 1: era of Chicago. What about you, Jamie, I'm going for

1566
01:38:49,240 --> 01:38:54,200
Speaker 1: I think that this movie is in this story are

1567
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:57,600
Speaker 1: doing so much. I completely agree with you that, for

1568
01:38:57,920 --> 01:39:01,400
Speaker 1: for all this story does to examine, you know, kind

1569
01:39:01,439 --> 01:39:06,720
Speaker 1: of weaponized white fragility, Um, it does not examine the

1570
01:39:06,920 --> 01:39:09,760
Speaker 1: issues that women of color were facing during this time

1571
01:39:10,040 --> 01:39:13,560
Speaker 1: specific and it's it does come down, you know, particularly

1572
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:17,000
Speaker 1: because this story is commenting on the prison system to

1573
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:20,479
Speaker 1: some extent, and the prison system in the US, especially

1574
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:25,000
Speaker 1: disproportionately affects black people, specifically black men. And there's and

1575
01:39:25,160 --> 01:39:27,400
Speaker 1: and it's not like we know anything about A. Diggs's character,

1576
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 1: and he's the only black man who appears in the

1577
01:39:29,320 --> 01:39:33,960
Speaker 1: whole movie. So I do think that there's absolutely issues

1578
01:39:34,360 --> 01:39:37,360
Speaker 1: there that if this were to be updated again, and

1579
01:39:38,040 --> 01:39:40,000
Speaker 1: as much as I don't really care for like the

1580
01:39:40,120 --> 01:39:42,720
Speaker 1: rebooty culture, I would be I would be down for

1581
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:46,720
Speaker 1: another and updated version of Chicago because there is so

1582
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:51,080
Speaker 1: much there, and um, I think that particularly if people

1583
01:39:51,120 --> 01:39:55,080
Speaker 1: of color were included in in the production behind the camera,

1584
01:39:55,439 --> 01:39:57,040
Speaker 1: there's so much to work with, and there could be

1585
01:39:57,080 --> 01:40:00,280
Speaker 1: a lot more examined, so that, I mean, and that

1586
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:04,080
Speaker 1: and the Weinstein involvement I think are the main things

1587
01:40:04,160 --> 01:40:07,600
Speaker 1: that are going against this movie for me. But I

1588
01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:10,840
Speaker 1: just think that this movie is doing so much cool

1589
01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:16,440
Speaker 1: stuff in terms of showing us some truly like despicable

1590
01:40:16,479 --> 01:40:21,000
Speaker 1: across the board female protagonists that you still deeply understand

1591
01:40:21,240 --> 01:40:24,559
Speaker 1: why they're doing what they're doing. You're given the proper

1592
01:40:24,720 --> 01:40:28,960
Speaker 1: historical context for who they are and what they're doing.

1593
01:40:29,080 --> 01:40:32,600
Speaker 1: And and it's I mean, I I don't think that

1594
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:35,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of movies that are like fine to watch,

1595
01:40:36,560 --> 01:40:42,240
Speaker 1: that are massively successful, that examine topics like this effectively,

1596
01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:45,719
Speaker 1: that examine topics like you know, why were these women

1597
01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:48,880
Speaker 1: driven to commit murder? And I think that it's pretty

1598
01:40:48,960 --> 01:40:52,800
Speaker 1: clear what drives them. It's the you know, oppressive expectations

1599
01:40:52,960 --> 01:40:56,280
Speaker 1: of the men that run the world around them. I

1600
01:40:56,760 --> 01:41:00,360
Speaker 1: can't really think of the movie that better kind of

1601
01:41:00,479 --> 01:41:05,960
Speaker 1: indicts this inflammatory American media culture that has just gotten worse,

1602
01:41:06,240 --> 01:41:08,519
Speaker 1: you know, a hundred years out from this in a

1603
01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:13,600
Speaker 1: really engaging, funny, smart way. And I and I like

1604
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:17,840
Speaker 1: that that Velma and Roxy end up uh it's kind

1605
01:41:17,880 --> 01:41:21,160
Speaker 1: of it's like a depressing but positive ending where they

1606
01:41:21,400 --> 01:41:24,880
Speaker 1: are able to they have to kill and lie and

1607
01:41:25,920 --> 01:41:27,880
Speaker 1: do a hole this fucked up ship to do it,

1608
01:41:27,960 --> 01:41:30,639
Speaker 1: but they are able to finally kind of live their

1609
01:41:30,840 --> 01:41:33,720
Speaker 1: lives the way they wanted to and in a way

1610
01:41:33,800 --> 01:41:35,880
Speaker 1: that they should have just been able to. But in

1611
01:41:36,040 --> 01:41:38,439
Speaker 1: order to do it, all this fucked up stuff happened,

1612
01:41:38,920 --> 01:41:42,519
Speaker 1: had to happen. Yeah, I mean, it truly is for me,

1613
01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:46,479
Speaker 1: mainly that women of color are not given the narrative

1614
01:41:47,000 --> 01:41:49,519
Speaker 1: importance that they deserve in this story. But I think

1615
01:41:49,560 --> 01:41:52,000
Speaker 1: that you see also Lucy Lou like she's in the

1616
01:41:52,040 --> 01:41:56,720
Speaker 1: movie three minutes basically a cameo. But I do think

1617
01:41:56,800 --> 01:41:59,439
Speaker 1: that there are a lot of different kinds of women

1618
01:41:59,760 --> 01:42:02,879
Speaker 1: that are highly motivated, that are making their own choices,

1619
01:42:03,439 --> 01:42:07,080
Speaker 1: that are fucking up, that are succeeding, that very thoroughly

1620
01:42:07,280 --> 01:42:10,920
Speaker 1: understand the tools of oppression being used against them and

1621
01:42:11,080 --> 01:42:13,400
Speaker 1: spinning them in their advantage to get away with some

1622
01:42:13,479 --> 01:42:15,640
Speaker 1: funked up stuff. And you don't see that kind of

1623
01:42:15,760 --> 01:42:19,920
Speaker 1: story with women very often, I feel like, especially in

1624
01:42:20,240 --> 01:42:24,000
Speaker 1: like historical movies, and so I just I think this

1625
01:42:24,080 --> 01:42:27,519
Speaker 1: movie is doing so much that in this musical in general.

1626
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:31,120
Speaker 1: I like that it's adapted by um, that the source

1627
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:33,680
Speaker 1: material is from a woman, and that the story is

1628
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:36,439
Speaker 1: still generally honored. I like that there's a lot of

1629
01:42:36,479 --> 01:42:39,360
Speaker 1: queer representation in the production of this movie, although it

1630
01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:43,320
Speaker 1: is very white. Um. I just I don't know. I

1631
01:42:43,360 --> 01:42:46,160
Speaker 1: think that this movie is doing a lot that even

1632
01:42:46,479 --> 01:42:48,680
Speaker 1: current movies aren't able to do. And I just like

1633
01:42:49,400 --> 01:42:52,200
Speaker 1: enjoy when a movie is able to say a lot

1634
01:42:52,439 --> 01:42:56,080
Speaker 1: without feeling like you're getting bashed over the head with

1635
01:42:56,200 --> 01:42:58,479
Speaker 1: a frying pan. And I think that this movie is

1636
01:42:58,560 --> 01:43:03,720
Speaker 1: a good example of that. Uma and any movie that

1637
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:08,280
Speaker 1: is fun and funny and musical and draws the conclusion

1638
01:43:08,439 --> 01:43:13,120
Speaker 1: that humanity is a lost cause is my favorite kind

1639
01:43:13,160 --> 01:43:16,519
Speaker 1: of movies. So I'm gonna give it four nipples, and

1640
01:43:16,920 --> 01:43:21,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to give nipple to Queen Latifa. I'm going

1641
01:43:21,320 --> 01:43:24,639
Speaker 1: to give a nipple to Richard Gere because he's my crush.

1642
01:43:25,479 --> 01:43:27,559
Speaker 1: I'm going to give a nipple to Katherine Data Jones

1643
01:43:27,560 --> 01:43:29,720
Speaker 1: because she's my other crush. And I'm gonna give the

1644
01:43:30,080 --> 01:43:38,400
Speaker 1: final nipple to Lucy lou Hell. Yeah, well, Jamie, happy birthday,

1645
01:43:39,439 --> 01:43:41,960
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you for watching this movie for me.

1646
01:43:42,080 --> 01:43:45,280
Speaker 1: I love it so much. Of course, where can people

1647
01:43:45,439 --> 01:43:50,840
Speaker 1: follow you? Jamie Wow, I get my birthday flugs. Listen

1648
01:43:50,880 --> 01:43:54,240
Speaker 1: to ack Cast. It's uh listen to ack Cast. It's

1649
01:43:54,240 --> 01:43:57,560
Speaker 1: still coming out right now, and it will be I

1650
01:43:57,600 --> 01:43:59,800
Speaker 1: think it will be releasing its final episode if I'm

1651
01:44:00,080 --> 01:44:04,160
Speaker 1: working on schedule, uh next week. It's an in depth

1652
01:44:04,320 --> 01:44:07,600
Speaker 1: look at the Kathy comic strips and kind of what

1653
01:44:07,760 --> 01:44:10,439
Speaker 1: they say about the time they appeared in and I

1654
01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:12,240
Speaker 1: was able to use a lot of research I did

1655
01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:15,360
Speaker 1: for that podcast to have this discussion today. And there's

1656
01:44:15,439 --> 01:44:20,760
Speaker 1: episodes about movements of feminism and how deeply flawed and

1657
01:44:20,920 --> 01:44:24,320
Speaker 1: centered on middle class and above white women. Uh they

1658
01:44:24,400 --> 01:44:27,000
Speaker 1: were there. I just finished working on an episode that's

1659
01:44:27,040 --> 01:44:31,400
Speaker 1: all about the formation of American beauty standards and how

1660
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:37,080
Speaker 1: mired they are in imperialism and colonialism and white supremacy

1661
01:44:37,120 --> 01:44:39,360
Speaker 1: and all. I mean. It's a fun podcast because it's

1662
01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:42,120
Speaker 1: about Kathy comic strips, but it's also a lot of

1663
01:44:42,280 --> 01:44:46,679
Speaker 1: still suppressing serious ship as well. So uh yeah, that's

1664
01:44:46,720 --> 01:44:48,519
Speaker 1: if you want to give me a birthday present, give

1665
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:51,000
Speaker 1: the battle Cast five stars on iTunes and listen to

1666
01:44:51,120 --> 01:44:54,240
Speaker 1: act Cast because I worked hard on it, Yes, and

1667
01:44:54,439 --> 01:44:58,200
Speaker 1: give a cast five Stars as well. While you're at it,

1668
01:44:58,520 --> 01:45:03,120
Speaker 1: might as well at hurt Wow. Jamie Well, I love

1669
01:45:03,200 --> 01:45:06,519
Speaker 1: you dearly. I wish you the happiest of birthdays. I'm

1670
01:45:06,600 --> 01:45:10,840
Speaker 1: so glad we do this show together. Yeah, we do

1671
01:45:11,120 --> 01:45:14,200
Speaker 1: almost five years, baby, I know. I hope to I

1672
01:45:14,280 --> 01:45:16,760
Speaker 1: hope that we're in the same city again soon so

1673
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Speaker 1: that we can actually see each other and hang beginning

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Speaker 1: of September. Um you can follow us on Twitter and

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Speaker 1: Instagram at bectel Cats. You can go to our Patreon

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01:45:31,280 --> 01:45:34,400
Speaker 1: ak Matreon subscribe for five dollars a month. It gets

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Speaker 1: you two bonus episodes every month at patreon dot com,

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Speaker 1: slash becktel Cast. And then we've got merch. Tell us

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01:45:42,479 --> 01:45:45,600
Speaker 1: about the merch, Jamie Well. You can buy it and

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01:45:46,200 --> 01:45:50,400
Speaker 1: it's at de public dot com, slash the backdel Cast.

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Speaker 1: Go ever, get the merchant if you're so inclined, it's

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01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:56,640
Speaker 1: a blast, it's a blessing. It's a gift for you

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01:45:57,000 --> 01:46:00,400
Speaker 1: to have merch to consume products, because as we live

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Speaker 1: in a society, then you know, get some or don't.

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Speaker 1: We won't know the difference. We truly won't, We truly

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Speaker 1: profoundly won't. And that's Chicago bye,