1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Welcome to it could happen here, a podcast 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,239 Speaker 1: which bipopular demand today is about livestock, as we will 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: be going forward. It's me, It's Garrison, and we're talking 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: about species of sheep. Don't not really, we're not talking 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: about species of sheep, much to my disappointment, not yet, 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: but that will be coming. We're going to be getting 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: into clined texuls, mules that kind of think big sheep stuff. 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: But now today we're actually joined by John and John 9 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: has been subjected to my weight introduction, but we're not 10 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: We're not talking about sheep today. We're talking about active 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: transport infrastructure and we're talking about how cities tend to 12 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: build that in certain communities and not in others. So 13 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: welcome to the show. John, Yeah, thanks for having me. 14 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: I'll say that my partner would have been overjoyed if 15 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: the podcast was actually about species of sheep, So she's 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: tired of hearing me talk about bikes, I'm sure, So, 17 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: but here we are. Um, Yeah, thanks for having me, 18 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: John Alan. I'm an assistant professor at University of North 19 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: Carolina at Greensboro. Great. Yeah, So I think to start 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: off with if if you could kind of outline what 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: sort of like I guess, I guess people might not 22 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: be familiar at all with bike infrastructure, certainly if they 23 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: live in some parts of the US or like more 24 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: rural areas, and sort of what it looks like, and 25 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: what cities have been doing in the last few years 26 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: building bike infrastructure, and then how that relates to the 27 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: I guess, the income disparities within cities. Yeah, I mean, 28 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: that's a that's a big question, something that I tackled 29 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: in my book, which came out in twenty nineteen. But 30 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: then I haven't haven't kept up with it quite as much. 31 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: I've been trying to start work working on other projects, 32 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: but you know, I keep I keep tabs on things 33 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: a little bit. Um. I mean, basically, if we're talking 34 00:01:53,400 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: about the the standard rundown of infrastructure, the the I 35 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: would say, the most common thing that people think about 36 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: and probably the most common thing that's built in part 37 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: because it's quite cheap, especially over they say the last 38 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: twenty years, is the bike lane. You know, a bike 39 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: lane is usually about three to five feet wide, and 40 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: it's in to the far right of the roadway. If 41 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: you're in the United States or you know, if you're 42 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: driving on the right, tends to be where glass collects, 43 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:35,839 Speaker 1: tends to be where car doors are it. And so 44 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: that nevertheless was you know, very common in places that 45 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: we're building bicycle infrastructure. That's what was being built in 46 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: I would say the last ten to fifteen years, there's 47 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: been a push to do more what people might call 48 00:02:53,919 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: Dutch style protected bike lanes. Either they're protected by buffer 49 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: of kind of plastic posts that don't prevent an emergency 50 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: vehicle from kind of getting where it needs to go, 51 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: but also don't prevent drivers from just driving into the 52 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: bike lane. Really, so you'll see those and then you 53 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 1: know parking protected bike lanes. So the protected bike lanes 54 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: started became the big demand from bicycle infrastructure planning practitioners, 55 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: especially in cities like Portland's, you know, San Francisco, Oakland, Chicago, 56 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: New York City, et cetera, et cetera. Something that was 57 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: actually protected by a curb usually really usually it's still 58 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,119 Speaker 1: like some kind of a plastic curb right or cars right, 59 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: and you're not seeing a lot of you know, concrete 60 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: or brick curb work like you'll see in the Netherlands 61 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: or something like that. And then interestingly enough another piece 62 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: of infrastructure that there was a funny kind of Mayaculpa, 63 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: or not Mayaculpa, but a reevaluation of it was the sharrow, 64 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: which is just a sort of a chevron symbol in 65 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: the middle of a car lane, intended to remind drivers 66 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: that cyclists are allowed to be there, but sort of 67 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: put cyclists in the location where they would sort of 68 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: garner the most hatred. And there was a recent recent 69 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: editorial from Dave Snyder, San Francisco Bicycle Coalition. It was 70 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: a big, big pioneer just in general bicycle infrastructure. I 71 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: interviewed him for my dissertation and he talked about how 72 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: they don't work. That was a mistake. It was mistake 73 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: kind of splitting the difference, making it seem like you 74 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: didn't have to take any space away from cars in 75 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: order to fit bikes into the roadway. So I don't 76 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: know if that's kind of more than you wanted from that. No, No, 77 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: that's great because I think a lot of folks might 78 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 1: not have seen all these different things. Certainly, like if 79 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: you're like me and you wrote your bike every day, 80 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: you know to teach of these different things, and some 81 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: of them make you feel safer, some of them don't, 82 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: and some of them are just kind of tokenistic. I 83 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: think a lot of this kind of gets to a 84 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: bigger discussion, which which is one waybe we can touch on, 85 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: which is like who the city is for? When we're 86 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: building cities in this country, certainly it seems like we've 87 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: built them around cars, with a few exceptions like older 88 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: cities and stuff, and increasingly like if you ask for 89 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: space that and you are not a car, then you 90 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: know to include people wanting to live on the streets, 91 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: right that cars have free places to go at night, 92 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: but people don't. And so like this reallocation of space 93 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: I think gets to a bigger question, which is, yeah, 94 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: maybe something you can speak to. Yeah, so I mean 95 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: the question of I think you can think of who 96 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: both In terms of the mode of transport, it's very 97 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: car dominant society, right, and car car driving is even 98 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: on the rise in places like Copenhagen. Right, there's kind 99 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: of a lot of fretting among my supply advocates in 100 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: Copenhagen about the rise of car usage. So there's the 101 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: quite the sort of the mode of transport. But you know, 102 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: cars aren't people, right, as you sort of pointed out 103 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: just then and then so there's another layer to it 104 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: that intersects with it, which is cities being increasingly sort 105 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: of oriented towards attracting higher income residents, right, kind of 106 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: creating an attractive urban environment. There's a there's a kind 107 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: of an intersection with the interest in attracting kind of 108 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: high tech or creative or knowledge intensive types of jobs, 109 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: right your software programmers, you know. I think it was 110 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: Chicago mayor Roman Manuel. I use this in lectures all 111 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: the time. He said something like, um, you can't be 112 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: for a high tech, creative city economy and not be 113 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: pro bike. Right. So there's this there's this idea that 114 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: you know, may be a little bit spurious, or it 115 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: might be kind of loose causality, but there's this idea 116 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: that the kinds of workers that you want in your 117 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: city that are either going to take high paying jobs 118 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: and increase the property tax base or themselves create new startups, 119 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: entrepreneurial energy, arts, culture and and things like that, right 120 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: that they are they are attracted by bicycle infrastructure or 121 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: bicycling or bicycle culture in some respects. So there's that 122 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: that kind of the The irony, of course, is that 123 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: those workers, you know, guilty, I have a car, right, 124 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: typically bring cars with that, right, And so yes, maybe 125 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: they don't want to use them on a daily basis, 126 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: like I don't use my car on a daily basis. 127 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: I don't use my car to get to work, right, 128 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: But they, you know, are often kind of having it 129 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: both ways, right, in a lot of ways in terms of, 130 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: you know, buildings will be built with garages, right, and 131 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: that's only recently starting to be eroded, right as just 132 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,239 Speaker 1: a you know, a one to one parking ratio and 133 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: a transit connected building. Yeah. And so when we're talking 134 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: about it, the combination of these two things, right, like 135 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: affluent areas or cities trying to attract affluent people and 136 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: cities trying to build bike infrastructure. And something I've observed 137 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: where I live, which is San Diego, is that we've 138 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: built a lot of bike lanes, but only connecting privileged 139 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: communities to places where people do high income work. And 140 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: it seems like increasingly like riding your bike safely is 141 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: a privilege, there's only a forty to a certain group 142 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: of people. Is that something that's broader than justested in 143 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: my town? I'd say so, I mean, I think you 144 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: see this in in where I did a lot of 145 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 1: my research in the San Francisco Bay area, also did 146 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: research in Philadelphia and Detroit and Austin as well. That's 147 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: not in the book, but yeah, that's it's common, and 148 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: there's a few different There's kind of a there's a 149 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: degree of cumulative causality, as we would say in economic geography. Right, 150 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: you have, going back to say the nineteen nineties, you 151 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: had bicycle advocates primarily recreational, primarily middle class, largely white, 152 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: recreational cyclists, or and you start to seem participants in 153 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: by squad vocacy organizations also being kind of bicycle commuters. 154 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: The kinds of jobs that were growing in urban centers 155 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties and two thousands or you know, 156 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: the first decade of this millennium, right, are the kinds 157 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: of you know, if not high tech, sort of professional 158 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: technical type of employment, right, growing in urban centers. And 159 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: there's relatively affordable housing in gentrifying neighborhoods that makes it 160 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: feasible and desirable actually that you could you could, you know, 161 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: find a fairly affordable house and be able to bike 162 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: to work right two to three miles, right, rather than 163 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: the commute in from the suburbs or the commute out 164 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: from the urban center to jobs at the suburbs. Right. So, 165 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: I think that you get a lot of the initial 166 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: energy around the bicycle movement if you look at critical Mass, 167 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: if you look at the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition and 168 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: its early days. Again, these are things I'm familiar with. 169 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: A lot of this sort of the political mobilization is 170 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: around making those types of journeys easier, more doable. Right. 171 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: You also have the phenomenon where the neighborhoods that are 172 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: getting gentrified in this time are your sort of classic 173 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: innermost streetcar suburbs developed around a hundred years ago, fairly 174 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: walkable themselves. They have a mix of commercial and residential. 175 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 1: They aren't buying large industrial neighborhoods, right, The industrial neighborhoods 176 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: where you still have a lot of truck traffic, where 177 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: industry be got more industry or de industrialization really hollowed 178 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: out the economic base where you have you know, large roadways, 179 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: you have you know disinvestment and kind of a mix 180 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 1: of small retail, etc. Etc. Um. Lower income population. Uh, 181 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: those were not um. Those were not areas where were 182 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: that were attracting the kinds of people who would be 183 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: listened to when they're demanding bicycle infrastructure. Right, there's still 184 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: lots of cyclists in those neighborhoods UM in a place 185 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: like East Oakland or um uh North Philadelphia or something 186 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: like that, right where there are a lot of people 187 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: who ride bicycles, but they don't they're not organized politically 188 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: uh under the sort of the block of of of 189 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: cyclists UM. And so there's this sort of paradox or 190 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: in the way that I came around to this project 191 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: was I was working in a bike shop in Philadelphia, 192 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: and I was one of those white hipsters on fixies. 193 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: Right at the same time, I spent a lot of 194 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: my day speaking Spanish, talking with and helping people fix 195 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: their bikes, mostly Latin American immigrants who were working as 196 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 1: dishwashers or delivering food, buying bikes at Walmart because it's 197 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: what they could afford, even though they knew that they 198 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: were crapped, they just couldn't afford anything better trying to 199 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: get the most out of those bikes. And so there's 200 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: this funny dichotomy. On the one hand, it's like you 201 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: have the cool bike already, creative scene that is sort 202 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: of trying to be encouraged maybe, And on the other hand, 203 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: a lot of the people were actually making do on 204 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: bicycles are not sort of part of that vision, I 205 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: guess for the city, right when I think about things 206 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: in spatial terms as well, right, if you imagine going 207 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: back to the journeys to work from a sort of 208 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 1: close in residential neighborhood that is experiencing a lot of turnover, 209 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: a lot of middle class you know, mostly white but 210 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: not necessarily exclusively white, in migrants, the types of journeys 211 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: that a lot of you know, I'll take Durham for example, 212 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: where I live now, which is not there's not a 213 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: lot of good bicycle infrastructure. There's a little there's not 214 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: a lot of good bicycle infrastructure, but there's some job 215 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: growth in the downtown area. There's certainly a lot of 216 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: job growth in the sort of the suburbs. But in 217 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: terms of the kinds of jobs that, um, you know, 218 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: working class jobs that are being created at Amazon fulfillment centers, 219 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: those are at the urban periphery, right, They're not places 220 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: that even in a kind of a gentrifying neighborhood. Even 221 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: if bicycle infrastructure were created. This sort of the direct 222 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: tionality of the feasible commute kind of runs against the 223 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: feasible bicycle commute sort of runs against the very kind 224 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: of spread out and scattered commutes in the sort of retail, wholesale, warehousing, manufacturing, 225 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, the sectors that are experiencing job 226 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: sprawl rather than a sort of a concentrated, concentrated job 227 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: growth in in the sort of the urban center. Right. 228 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: So that's another aspect to it as well. Bike advocacy 229 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: is very interesting to me. Like I was a bike messenger, 230 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: I was a bike racer like these, I've made my 231 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: living riding a bike. I've also just ridding my bike 232 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: to get to work. And bike advocacy really hasn't reflected 233 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: a broadsworth of psychists for a very long time. Do 234 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: you think that's why we don't see like better infrastructure 235 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: in some of these like d industrializing areas for instance, 236 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: And does that lead directly to it being more dangerous? 237 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: Like you would be the best to ask of their 238 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: statistics to show that, like it's more dangerous to ride 239 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: your bike. So I'll say a couple of things. The 240 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: the the directionality or the causality is a little bit complicated. 241 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: I would say certainly there was some evidence that bicycle 242 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: advocates weren't in the early days, and there was a 243 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: big sort of cultural shift in by advocacy in the 244 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties part of the nineteen nineties. You have a 245 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: lot of cyclists who are actually opposed to bicycle infrastructure. 246 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: We still have. They are still a loud, being rish 247 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: voice in San Diego. Yeah, exactly, the vehicular cyclists, right, yeah, yeah, 248 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: can you explain that, sure? Vehicular cyclists. Um. It was 249 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: a philosophy expounded by John Forrester. I have his book 250 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: right here in the book and it's not here in 251 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: the book Effective Cycling. Um. Where it was the idea 252 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: was that cyclists should be riding like cars, right, which 253 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:28,239 Speaker 1: means riding fast, center of the lane, behaving exactly like 254 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: a car. And they were very opposed to any infrastructure 255 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: that would sort of create be created especially for bicyclists, 256 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: on the basis which there was maybe some slight truth 257 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: to this, that that cyclists would be banned from roads 258 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: that didn't have dedicated bicycle infrastructure. There was a little 259 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: bit of concern that was there was I think I 260 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: remember reading about a little bit of actual talk among 261 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: legislators and planners that bicyclists would be kept off of 262 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: main roads. And I think their to their credit, they 263 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: saw the creation of bicycle infrastructure at that time as 264 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: basically designed to get cyclists out of the way of motorists, right, 265 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: And so it was mainly to advance the interests of motorists, right. 266 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: But they were very hostile to um. They're very hostile 267 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: to a sort of a Dutch style model, which, like 268 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, these were guys who like to ride fast 269 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: and like you don't. You can't ride fast in the Netherlands, yea, 270 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: not everyone's physically able nor really wants to go forty 271 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: miles an hour on a road next to cars exactly right. 272 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: So it was very much around a strong, fit, confident 273 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: cyclist who who knew all the laws of the road, 274 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: road really fast, was very assertive. It obviously lent itself 275 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: towards a sort of a boomer type, right, a sort 276 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: of adventurous type, and it was very much that we 277 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: that bicycle advocates should advance the interests of cyclists, not 278 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: try to grow the number of people cycling, right, And 279 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: so the shift towards that maybe the critical mass moment 280 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: is not the only thing, but this is that's sort 281 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: of a good moment to kind of tag it to 282 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety two first critical mass era, but you 283 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: know Earth Day vehicle for a small planet, all of 284 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: this sort of growing interest in bicycling. Yeah, the shift 285 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: towards more people should be doing. Yeah, can you explain 286 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: critical mass to people who haven't like participated, because I 287 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: think it's quite meek an interesting phenomena. Sure, yeah, absolutely so. 288 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: I'm critical mass began in San Francisco in I think 289 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: the first critical mass was nineteen ninety two, and it 290 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: was began sort of as like a group of people working, 291 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: you know, broadly working office jobs who were sort of 292 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: kind of culturally anarchistic or you know, had these sort 293 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: of anarchist or situation as kind of ideas and who 294 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: were kind of organizing months of selves to ride home 295 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: as a group. Right, And they started getting this idea 296 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: of sort of having these monthly ride together um happenings. Right. 297 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,719 Speaker 1: They called it. They didn't call them protests, and they 298 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: weren't organized rides. They were um sort of rolling festival 299 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: was the idea. I think the first The first name 300 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: that they came up with, which mercifully didn't stick, was 301 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: like the commute clot right, So it was also about 302 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: kind of jamming up the regularity of the Friday evening commute, 303 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: so it would be like the first Friday of every 304 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: month at commute time. Right. Um. Some of these I 305 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: think still happened in Portland. Oh yeah, yeah, it's it's 306 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: the critical mass still happens. Um. There's a you know, 307 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: one of the chapters in my book, I sort of 308 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: trace this arc of critical mass through to the more 309 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: kind of bike party oriented exactly exactly the slow roll 310 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: type of model, which I think is interesting because it's 311 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: a little bit it's consciously less confrontational. It's not held 312 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: at a time that would clog up um, sure, clog 313 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: up evening traffic. Uh. It's designed to attract kind of families, 314 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: people who aren't trying to have confrontations with drivers or police. Right. 315 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: One of the things that sort of really put put 316 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: bicycle infrastructure on the agenda and San Francisco was this 317 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: mass arrest of critical Mass in nineteen ninety seven, supposedly 318 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: because the mayor of San Francisco, Willie Brown at the time, 319 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: got stuck in one in his limo and was like 320 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: furious and so asked the police to crack down next time. 321 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: It was a huge it was. It backfired massively politically, 322 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: but it also created this opening for the San Francisco 323 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: Bicycle Coalition, which actually was an organization. Critical Mass was 324 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: not an organization, right. It gave them this opportunity to say, well, 325 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: what cyclists want is, you know, to actually build out 326 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: the bike plan that supposedly exists, but nobody's been doing 327 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: anything about it, right, So, I mean that's probably maybe 328 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: more than you wanted to know. But sort of that 329 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: that arc of Critical Mass as this sort of countercultural 330 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: moment that created this opening for a more formal bicycle 331 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: planning uh, an advocacy organization or a set of organizations 332 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: to emerge, right, Um, And maybe it's unfair I think 333 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: I'd probably do it in the book. It's a little 334 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: bit unfair probably to call it a kind of depoliticization, 335 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: But there was certainly a degree of kind of like 336 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: explicit politics of sort of reclaiming the city more broadly 337 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: from a kind of left perspective that does disappear somewhat 338 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: in the sort of the rhetoric of the bike movement. Yeah, 339 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 1: it's definitely it's definitely lost some of that like radical 340 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: edge where these types of these types of you know 341 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: when when when like a hundred or two hundred people 342 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: on bikes takeover streets in Portland every once in a while, 343 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: it is way more in the form of like a 344 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: big party. It's like it's it's it's like it's like 345 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: a it's like a rolling block party. It does not 346 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: have that same level of like, yeah, almost like situationist 347 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: creating a happening or creating a situation that that affects 348 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: the regular politics and affects the regular way that the 349 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 1: city functions. Yeah, I mean, yeah. That being said, the 350 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: sort of the successors, like bike Party in San Jose 351 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: was a huge one, and this that bike party model 352 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,719 Speaker 1: kind of spread throughout California were often much bigger than 353 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: critical maps, right, um, a lot of times more diverse 354 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,360 Speaker 1: as well. Right, So there's there's a really interesting kind 355 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: of politics around Is the is the politics in the 356 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: sort of explicit slogans, or is the politics and sort 357 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: of like showing people that there is a kind of 358 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: collectivity that they might be part of simply by virtue 359 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: of like moving through urban space in a different way. 360 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 1: And for a lot of people it was their first 361 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: time riding a bike in the city because they were 362 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: so afraid of cars other wise. Right, yeah, it's safety 363 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: and numbers. Yeah yeah, yeah, it definitely, Um, I know 364 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: for a lot of people that was the case. Like 365 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: I've done some critical masses, I mean the UK, we 366 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: had reclaimed the streets as well, like a similar vibe. 367 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: I remember in the early I guess the first decade 368 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: of this century, like there would be critical mass rides 369 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: before anti G eight protests, like I remember in Octor 370 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: rider in Scotland and things or not in Octorada before that, 371 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: and like before other G eight protests would be mass 372 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: rights and it's a very different scene to like bike 373 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: advocacy now, right yeah, yeah, And you saw this a 374 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: little bit with like the Occupy movement, the at least 375 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: my experience of them, the sort of early wave of 376 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: the Black Lives Matter movement in twenty fourteen with the 377 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: killing of Trayvon Martin Um, there were a lot the 378 00:25:55,119 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: bicycles seemed like an intuitive protest for many people, and 379 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: that's probably sort of some of the cultural political tools 380 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: of critical mass that sort of surface here and there. 381 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: But I think for the twentieth anniversary, Chris Carlson, who 382 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 1: was one of the early organizers, called it talks about 383 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: critical mass all over the world, and that San Francisco 384 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: felt kind of like the hole in the middle of 385 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: the donut, right, Like it sort of created this reverberation, 386 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:32,199 Speaker 1: but then it actually withered to a degree in the center. 387 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,959 Speaker 1: And often the narrative is, well, you're you're getting like 388 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: you're winning, right, so critical mass is no longer necessary 389 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: because you're getting bike lanes, you're getting you know, you're 390 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: getting investment, you're getting attention from planners, etc. Etc. Right. Obviously, yeah, 391 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,959 Speaker 1: the gains, whatever they are, are pretty kind of geographically circumscribed. 392 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: And that kind of relates back to how we kind 393 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: of started by talking about how, you know, some cities 394 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: are putting more development into bike infrastructure, but how it's 395 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: being developed is not actually serving people who like like 396 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: have to use a bike to commute because they don't 397 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: own a car and they can't afford a car, Like 398 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: it's it's it's getting used to people who actually already 399 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: have a lot of resources. And like an interesting case 400 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: in point in this is the belt line in Atlanta, 401 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: which like started off in the you know as an 402 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,239 Speaker 1: idea in nineteen ninety nine with wanting to create like 403 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: a giant loop using like public transit, having having rail 404 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: going around the city, having bike having bike paths going 405 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: all around the city, being able to like connect the 406 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: city with these with these like spaces for like green 407 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: space and affordable housing, and instead the project kind of 408 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: manifested as this like like is this project that was 409 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: had up by real estate companies to replace a whole 410 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: bunch of low income neighborhoods with the massive amounts of 411 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,959 Speaker 1: like expensive restaurants and luxury condos and you know, putting 412 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: putting the belt line and as a path to create 413 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 1: these like expensive, like gentrifying areas around the city. And 414 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: it's how like these ideas can start off so good 415 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: and then when they get like, you know, actually done, 416 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: it's manifested in a way that is actually like not 417 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: helpful to people who need this type of thing at all. Yeah. Yeah, 418 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: I mean the belt Line. I don't know enough about it. 419 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: I've read I've read a little bit of the sort 420 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: of academic literature, and I've been there, and it is 421 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: really kind of interesting how it is this it is 422 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: this huge investment in the reconversion of infrastructure, right to 423 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: sort of restore the value of the land surrounding it, right, 424 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: sort of old rail, old industrial infrastructure. And that's something 425 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: that I don't think that you can you're ever you know, people, 426 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: there are studies here and there that try to demonstrate 427 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: the kind of the economic value of bicycle infrastructure, the 428 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: contribution to tax tax receipts, etcetera, etcetera, But it gets 429 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: pretty hard to parse the causality, especially when you're you know, 430 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: especially when compared to something that is really sort of 431 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: overhauling the space, right, I don't you know, the belt 432 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: belt line is it's I think probably it's success from 433 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: a sort of financial perspective has to do with it 434 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: being a multi use path, right rather than it being 435 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: bicycle infrastructure, um, and sort of being being framed as 436 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: this much broader type of thing, right rather than um, 437 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: a bike lane on a street. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 438 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: It's no great to ride down like later on the 439 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: weekend because you'll just be slam full of full of people. 440 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: It's full of like I when I when I when 441 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: I was visiting last year during the start of summer, 442 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: I went with a friend to the area by Ponce 443 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: City Market, which is kind of a great example of 444 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: the gentrifying force of of the belt line. But also like, yeah, 445 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: there's people who's trying, people who are trying to ride 446 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: bikes around, but there's like kids on rollers, kids everywhere. 447 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: There's it's it's it's pretty packed. It's getting it's it's 448 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: getting pretty pretty warm. Um. But there's other parts that 449 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: are like you know, that are that are more isolated, 450 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: where it is much more of like a of like 451 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: a commute path. But it's it's interesting. It's just like 452 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: it like weaves in and out of these like retail 453 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: and luxury apartment um, you know pop up exactly, and 454 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: all that stuff is is relatives like relatively new for 455 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: all the stuff that is like specifically surrounding surrounding like 456 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: the construction of the belt line. Yeah, and I mean 457 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: the um, I think that you maybe see this just 458 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: a little bit with like, you know, the direction that 459 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: I've taken this thinking about it is more the sort 460 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: of the types of urban strategies that have begun to 461 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: incorporate bicycle infrastructure right or active transportation more generally as 462 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: the kind of big driving forces rather than like, is 463 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: this bike lane here causing gentrification? It's usually it's often 464 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: the other way around. Right. Bicycle infrastructure sort of emerges 465 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: as a result of gentrification, right, or as a result 466 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: of the in migration of people who are going to 467 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: be listened to, right because of their status, because of 468 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: their income, because they have kind of existing capacities in 469 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: organizing for these types of things. Right. It's I think 470 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: what's interesting is one of the one of the positions 471 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: I've sort of come around to, right is thinking more 472 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: about um, not like should we do bicycle infrastructure because 473 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: it might kind of create the perception of gentrification or 474 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: cause gentrification or something like that, and instead, like, you 475 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: know what, one of the things that gentrification results from 476 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: when you're thinking about amenities that sort of lead to 477 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: the revalorization of urban space is that they are in 478 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: some way special. Right. And so if the question is 479 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: the specialness of this particular place, you know, garrison, as 480 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: you said, what makes say, you know, the kinds of 481 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: places where you can safely ride a bike are fairly unique, right, 482 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: They're not well distributed, right, And so from my perspective, 483 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: it's sort of the more routine they become as an 484 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: as as you know, including them into urban space, the 485 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: less special the places where they are built become right, 486 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: and it's and so routine that it wouldn't be worth mentioning, right, 487 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: It's like mentioning that there is a sewer line, right, 488 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: Like it's like mentioning that it has connection to city water, 489 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: which okay, yeah, and you know at the at the 490 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,239 Speaker 1: urban edge where I live, Um, I don't live at 491 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: the urban edge, but at the urban edge in the southeast, Um, 492 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: you know, there isn't always connection to the city water. Um. Yeah, 493 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: Like trying to get it normalized to the point where 494 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: it's like obvious that it's something that is like a 495 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: part of the city. It's like yeah, like right, of course, 496 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: it's it's just as normal as like a sidewalk or 497 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: a road or like a power line, which but fair. 498 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: I don't have any sidewalks on my street, and most 499 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: of the streets around me have a sidewalk on one 500 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: side only Portland Portland also has very has very few sidewalks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 501 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: you have this. Yeah. I lived in Belgium for a 502 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: while when I was racing. It, like I lived in 503 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: a town that was very much just to look in. 504 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: Lots of Belgium is shitty, gray coal mining towns. I 505 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 1: love Belgium, but this is the thing, and like, yeah, 506 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: they would never have beat you know, the bike infrastructure 507 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: is unremarkable. It was just a thing that everyone used 508 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: to go to the shops to go to school. It 509 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: wasn't right lest like selling point for a branch restaurant. Yeah, 510 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: and I think it's this kind of thing where it's 511 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: bigger than just the infrastructure. Right. A lot of the 512 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,919 Speaker 1: places where bicycle infrastructure has been really successful, right are 513 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: these sort of dense, relatively dense areas, actually not the 514 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: densest areas right where everything was is in walking distance, 515 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: but the area is kind of just beyond there, right 516 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: where where there are you know, shops, places of employment, services, etc. Etc. 517 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,320 Speaker 1: All sort of within reasonable biking distance or maybe long 518 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: walking distance, right, but too short to really merit a 519 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: trip on a bus or a train. Right, And you know, 520 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: short enough that maybe some of us would feel a 521 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 1: little bit silly getting in the car to go do it, right, 522 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: So that that kind of zone is also not terribly 523 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: common in the United States, Right, A lot of those 524 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: places got destroyed to build highways. Right, or got destroyed 525 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 1: to build kind of suburban style shopping malls, and so 526 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: that's part of their part of their specialness. But going 527 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: back to the idea of you know, people in the 528 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 1: places where people were really relying on bicycles, right, that 529 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: there isn't necessarily infrastructure. It's partially a data issue, going 530 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: back to your data question. Right. The way that we 531 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,839 Speaker 1: collect data on bicycling is people people bicycling to work. Right. 532 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: If people aren't in the workforce, or they happen to 533 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: not have a job, that is not counted in the census. Right, 534 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: even if you bicycle to the train like I do. 535 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: Like if I get to fill out the census, I'm 536 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: going to fill out train, right, because that's the bulk 537 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: of my journey when I commute. And so it skews 538 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: your perception of where infrastructure might be needed if you're 539 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: using data toward places that where people are commuting by bicycle, 540 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,959 Speaker 1: right rather than you know, commuting is only a quarter 541 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: to a third of all trips, right, rather than all 542 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: the other trips that we don't know about, right. And 543 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: sometimes we measure them with passive measurement, like pressure sensors 544 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: in the streets. Sometimes active measurement, like people doing bicycle 545 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: counts on particular days. Right, there's a whole history of that. 546 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: Now we're using Strava. But then we're getting a small 547 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: like we're getting a very rich data set about a 548 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 1: small subset of cyclists and hoping that that extends to most, 549 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,800 Speaker 1: if not all cyclists. And then to your question started, 550 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: I'll I'll pause right to your question about the the 551 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: the data question. Right, how how deadly or how dangerous 552 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: are various streets that don't have bike lanes. There is 553 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 1: a big problem of the missing denominator. Right, We don't 554 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: know how many people cycles, so we don't know the 555 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: rates of injury on these particular roadways in the way 556 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: in the same way that we do know car volumes 557 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: and can have a better sense of the rates of 558 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 1: injury based on collisions. Right, But you do see clusters 559 00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: of collisions in places where you know, where they're large 560 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: roads meeting where basically no very few if any traffic 561 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: engineers would sign off on taking away some of that 562 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: car capacity to create more safety for cyclists. And of 563 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: course those those kind of compound, those factors kind of compound. Right. 564 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: You maybe have an industrial area, it's a big interface 565 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: with a large urban arterial or an off ramp to 566 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: a highway. Right, these kind of all go together with 567 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: um with potentially sort of lower lower income area are 568 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: sort of a lower less pressure to improve that that area. Yeah, 569 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: So I'm thinking when I think about, like how the 570 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: bike movement missed an opportunity to be better. I always 571 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: think about like this moment in twenty twenty when this 572 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,280 Speaker 1: man called Dijon Kizzie was killed by police in LA 573 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: And the incident which which led to the cops shooting him, 574 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: began because the cops tried to pull him over for 575 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: running a stop sign on a bike, right, which is 576 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: a thing that tenth of thousands of white dudes in 577 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 1: Spandex do every single day in this kind of and 578 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: not a word was spoken by the bike movement, at 579 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: least that I saw by bike folks, you know, in 580 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: sort of solidarity or opposition to what had happened. Right, 581 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: It just it was just another thing that went mourned 582 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 1: by thousands of people and ignored by others. So like it, 583 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: maybe think about how we build Maybe it's wrong to 584 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: think about how we build a better bike movement, and 585 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: maybe it's better to think about how we make it 586 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: unremarkable that you bike, right, we make it like not 587 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,760 Speaker 1: an identity. Think, but how do we make cities where 588 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: people are safe riding bikes I guess, regardless of whether 589 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: they're wearing spandex or they're just trying to get to 590 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: the shops. Yeah, I mean that's a really kind of 591 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: an important question, and in my research a lot of 592 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: people were grappling with that. There was an incident that 593 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: mercifully didn't result in someone being killed or seriously injured. 594 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: But you know, a guy was pulled off of his 595 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 1: bike by a police beaten up in San Francisco, and 596 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: there was a big march afterwards, and some of the 597 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: some bi SURP advocates did show up, but it was 598 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 1: not framed as this is something that you know is 599 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: affecting us as cyclists, right, This is or that affecting 600 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: some of us as cyclists, right, and an injury to 601 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: one as an injury at all. Right, that's not that's 602 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: not It was not the kind of the frame that 603 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 1: people were using to mud from what I could tell, right, Um, 604 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: and you had bicycle you know black bisqua advocates in 605 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,799 Speaker 1: East Oakland who didn't really frame themselves as bice squadvocates 606 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: necessarily in the traditional or the mold that is sort 607 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: of determined by the sort of the hegemonically kind of 608 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: white and the class advocacy organizations, right, but they were 609 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: very much plasicle advocates who you know, um, a lot 610 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: of were a lot of a lot of what they 611 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 1: did was sort of like teaching people to ride correctly 612 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,359 Speaker 1: so that they would have fewer interactions with police, right 613 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: or um kind of managing interactions with police, and you know, 614 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 1: hopefully becoming well enough known as cyclists that they weren't 615 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: kind of subject to the kinds of interactions that you 616 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: know where people police end up killing somebody. Right. Um, 617 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,839 Speaker 1: Now that I live in a place where very few 618 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: people bicycle to work or for much of anything, right, 619 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: I'm thinking a bit more holistically about uh, you know, 620 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: it's now kind of a buzzword, but you know, a 621 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: kind of a more car optional um city right where 622 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,760 Speaker 1: you don't need to have a car to do various things. 623 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: You know. I'm I'm involved with bicycle advocates here, but 624 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: like when I when I look around, I see like 625 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: a bus stop that is a stick in a median, right, 626 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: there's no bench, there's no sidewalks to get to it, 627 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: there's no crosswalks or anything like that. And I mean, 628 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: I think that one of the bigger one of the 629 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: bigger questions is to make a place that's safe for cyclists, 630 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: safe for people walking, safe for people walking their bikes, 631 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: or safe for people walking to transit. Right. Um is 632 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: reducing the kind of the space and the way that 633 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,240 Speaker 1: space and speed go together, right, that are devoted to cars, 634 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:56,280 Speaker 1: and a lot of that is like um, reducing the 635 00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: the the distances that people need to travel right for 636 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: various things. Right, this gets into this sort of the 637 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 1: fifteen minute city stuff, which is it's been really wild 638 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: to see it being turned into this like QAnon type, 639 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: you know, Agenda twenty one, un black Helicopters type of 640 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory, right, because I think of it as a 641 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: very kind of milk toast type of policy framework that's 642 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: honored in the breach right sort of like complete streets, 643 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 1: there's a carve out for unless the traffic engineer says 644 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: it's not really feasible, and then we won't really question 645 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: that judgment. We just won't do it. Right. So, I mean, 646 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 1: I do think it's bigger than modes of transport are 647 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 1: really bigger than people's individual decisions or even like what 648 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: the sort of once you are in your mode of transport, 649 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: what the sort of behavioral matrix is. Right, It's sort 650 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 1: of like what is your life consist of? Right? What 651 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: what do you do to preserve your dignity with your coworkers? Right? 652 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 1: All of these kinds of things that feed people towards 653 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 1: towards driving, except in you know, very specific places that 654 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,760 Speaker 1: you know have have become special in the United States. 655 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot, there's a lot to say, right. 656 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: It is really it's much bigger than than bicycling. Um. 657 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,359 Speaker 1: It's the sort of the built environment. And I think 658 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: one of the things that what I land on in 659 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,359 Speaker 1: the book maybe belated ly, right, because these these these 660 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,319 Speaker 1: things take years, is um, is this the way that 661 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: bicycling is still kind of this interstitial um solution? Right. 662 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: It's sort of like kind of picking up scraps here 663 00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: and there in the built environment. Right, It's like picking 664 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,800 Speaker 1: up some of the loose ends right in how cities 665 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: are organized that makes them frustrating difficult to navigate, right. Um. 666 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,920 Speaker 1: And you know, I think a lot of the energy 667 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:16,879 Speaker 1: not exclusively, certainly, And bicycle advocacy has become much more 668 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: diverse in part through like listening to a lot of 669 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 1: the voices of advocates of color and women advocates, and 670 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: you know, um kind of thinking beyond that sort of 671 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 1: stereotypical you know, not just the middle aged man in 672 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: micro but like the the sort of middle aged guy 673 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,839 Speaker 1: on us early, right, you know that that maybe successor 674 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,320 Speaker 1: to the middle aged man and micro right, and certainly 675 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: calling myself out, um, but the it's still very kind 676 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: of an interstitial thing, right, Um, it's and the thing 677 00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: about the urban transportation systems in the United States is 678 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,319 Speaker 1: that they leave a lot of interstices, right, There's a 679 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 1: lot of areas that are poorly served by anything but cars, 680 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: and honestly poorly served by cars. You know, in Oakland 681 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 1: you had people a lot of the sort of the 682 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 1: maybe not anger but certainly annoyance at bicycle advocacy and 683 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: bicycle infrastructure would be And I think you see this 684 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,759 Speaker 1: in Portland too, where it's like we've been asking for sidewalks, 685 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 1: we've been asking the city to to like fill these potholes, 686 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 1: and instead there's these bike lanes that people who just 687 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,799 Speaker 1: got here are asking for right, and so maybe that's 688 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 1: a failure of solidarity on people coming, you know, people 689 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: moving to a neighborhood. They're like, why is it so 690 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: torturous to get somewhere by bike? Rather than kind of 691 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 1: maybe stopping and saying, all right, what what what have 692 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: people been demanding here before I got here? Right? Um? 693 00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: And how can I sort of contribute to that as 694 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,880 Speaker 1: well and sort of kind of merge our agendas potentially? Um? 695 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: But it is the sort of it's a it's an 696 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: interstitial um solution, right. And so from for me, you know, 697 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,879 Speaker 1: the bigger the bigger questions are sort of what what 698 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 1: role will bicycles play when we start to really take 699 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:29,239 Speaker 1: seriously the kind of broader urban structure, so you don't 700 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: have these sort of islands of bike ability inside a 701 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: sea of automobility. Right, Um, do you have a situation 702 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,359 Speaker 1: where it actually becomes more practical to walk and take 703 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,919 Speaker 1: transit than it is to bike? Right? I would call 704 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,160 Speaker 1: that a that a win? Right? And I think you know, 705 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: there's a there's a there's a degree to which we 706 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 1: can get fixated on on the particular mode of transport. 707 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:52,759 Speaker 1: I think because we all kind of like fell in 708 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 1: love with bicycles and that was the sort of the 709 00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 1: the the gateway drug into thinking about like transport in 710 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: cities and how people move around and the sort of 711 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,879 Speaker 1: the history of urban planning. Right. So, I mean these 712 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 1: are all I don't know if I really kind of 713 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,239 Speaker 1: offered anything that sort of puts it all together nicely, right, 714 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: but the idea that it really does need to become normalized, 715 00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,760 Speaker 1: and if it actually sort of disappears in the process 716 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 1: of being normalized and it stops being a signifier of 717 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: environmental rectitude or something like that. And you know, if 718 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: I could walk to a grocery store instead of having 719 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,680 Speaker 1: to bike to a grocery store, I would prefer that 720 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,359 Speaker 1: honestly where I am right now, right, even though I 721 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 1: love cycling, right and it's something that I'll never stop doing. Right. 722 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: So I think kind of thinking more holistically about what 723 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,200 Speaker 1: kinds of cities we need to have to move beyond, 724 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,880 Speaker 1: move beyond automobility, both from a climate perspective and a 725 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:05,799 Speaker 1: social justice perspective and just almost like a thermodynamic perspective. Um. 726 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,360 Speaker 1: So I mean that maybe that's the moving up to 727 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 1: the level of physics is where one kind of place 728 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,520 Speaker 1: to end. Yeah. No, I think that's very good. Yeah. 729 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,160 Speaker 1: Is there anything you'd you'd like to plug maybe people 730 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 1: where people can find your book, where people can follow 731 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: you online, and I think like that, any sort of 732 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,400 Speaker 1: projects you're interested in. Sure. Yeah, so, um my you 733 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,080 Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter. I'm at j O st 734 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: e h l I N. My book is now, it's 735 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,160 Speaker 1: few years old. It's twenty nineteen with University of Minnesota Press. 736 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,560 Speaker 1: It's all. It's called cycle Scapes of the Unequal City 737 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:49,120 Speaker 1: M and my latest work I'm actually looking at, um 738 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:54,640 Speaker 1: the politics of highway removal. So maybe scaling up in 739 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:59,799 Speaker 1: terms of infrastructure, thinking about sort of bigger, kind of 740 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: the great clanking gears of urbanism rather than you know, 741 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,799 Speaker 1: this little tiny stretch of pavement on the side that's 742 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,319 Speaker 1: that's full of glass and car doors and stuff like that. 743 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,560 Speaker 1: So but of course they all kind of fit together, 744 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:17,040 Speaker 1: sort of what are the how does the fabric of 745 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: the built environment have to change in order to grapple 746 00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:24,960 Speaker 1: his climate change, inequality and sort of making a sort 747 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: of a more human type of city. Yeah. I think 748 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,239 Speaker 1: it's great. It's a wonderful place. Tran, thank you so 749 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: much for giving us some of your afternoon. JA. Yeah, 750 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,279 Speaker 1: thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time and 751 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,719 Speaker 1: it was a really fun conversation. Hi, podcast fans, it's me, 752 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,719 Speaker 1: It's Durings and it's just a tiny little pick up 753 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 1: that I wanted to add to the end of the 754 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:47,040 Speaker 1: episode because I neglected to mention that Siklista Zene did 755 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 1: call out the police killing of Dijon Kissy very explicitly 756 00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 1: and had an excellent peace on it, as they do 757 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,919 Speaker 1: on lots of other things. They are incredibly wonderful and 758 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,360 Speaker 1: you can find them at Siklista Zene cyc l I 759 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:05,560 Speaker 1: s t A z i ne dot com. They are 760 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,799 Speaker 1: not representative of the rest of the bike media, so 761 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 1: well worth looking at if you like bikes and not 762 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:18,720 Speaker 1: the police murdering people. They're a wonderful publication. Okay, thanks bye. 763 00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,880 Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 764 00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 765 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:27,880 Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 766 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,400 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 767 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,080 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 768 00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia, dot com, slash sources, thanks for listening.