Speaker 1: Have you heard of a twin flame? To little complex,
Speaker 1: So bear with me as I explain it. The idea
Speaker 1: of a twin flame is a spiritual concept that one
Speaker 1: soul can incarnate into two separate bodies. The belief is
Speaker 1: that every person has a mirror soul who is their
Speaker 1: perfect romantic match. Those who say they have found their
Speaker 1: twin flame describe these relationships as intense, intoxicating, and oftentimes
Speaker 1: downright toxic. From a psychological perspective, what sounds like something
Speaker 1: out of a fairy tale can actually be a breeding
Speaker 1: ground for abuse. Over the past few years, several twin
Speaker 1: flame online communities have ignited controversy, claiming to help those
Speaker 1: seeking romantic guidance while actually encouraging unhealthy and often abusive relationships.
Speaker 1: On In this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm joined by
Speaker 1: Candace Moon, who got involved in the twin flame community
Speaker 1: only to realize they were peddling, as she says, glamorize
Speaker 1: narcissistic abuse. Candace was urged to stay in an abusive
Speaker 1: relationship rather than risk losing per twin flame from Red
Speaker 1: Table Talk Podcasts and iHeartMedia. I'm Doctor Rominy and this
Speaker 1: is Navigating narcissism. This podcast should not be used as
Speaker 1: a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are
Speaker 1: advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy
Speaker 1: from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition,
Speaker 1: mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on
Speaker 1: this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering
Speaker 1: to some people. Use and opinions expressed are solely those
Speaker 1: of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast,
Speaker 1: and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia,
Speaker 1: or their employees. Candice, you have an amazing story. Let's
Speaker 1: just start at the topic of twin flames. Can you
Speaker 1: teach our listeners what a twin flame relationship is?
Speaker 2: Yes, So, the main belief of a twin flame is
Speaker 2: that you have this intense soulmate connection with this one
Speaker 2: person that literally is the other half of your soul.
Speaker 2: So the dogma, the belief is that before you incarnate
Speaker 2: into this life, your one soul and then that soul
Speaker 2: splits into a masculine and a feminine not necessarily a
Speaker 2: male physical body because there's LGBT people that are in
Speaker 2: the twin flame community. As well, but it's like an
Speaker 2: energy of life, the masculine aspect and the feminine aspect.
Speaker 2: So the soul just kind of splits in half and
Speaker 2: they incarnate down into the earth and you live your
Speaker 2: life separately through many different lifetimes, but you always have
Speaker 2: like this longing to find that perfect person, that other
Speaker 2: half of your soul. So you're basically living an incomplete
Speaker 2: life until you meet this person.
Speaker 1: My first question is, is only one person then that qualify
Speaker 1: as a twin flame?
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, you have that one special person and literally
Speaker 2: they're you. You literally share one soul that's split off
Speaker 2: and incarnated and is been going around in your human
Speaker 2: life lost and confused looking for that other half of
Speaker 2: you to complete you. And when you finally do meet them,
Speaker 2: you have this intense connection of a spiritual connection, like
Speaker 2: you feel like you've come home or you have is
Speaker 2: knowing and longing and you're with this person. But then
Speaker 2: it gets into once you've met the person, then things
Speaker 2: start going wrong in your life. All of your insecurities
Speaker 2: and everything are triggered. And this is where we get
Speaker 2: into where which I know we'll talk about where it's
Speaker 2: actually kind of the narcissism in the relationship, the toxicity
Speaker 2: starts to come out, and you bounce back and forth
Speaker 2: between what we call a narcissistic abuse, the love bombing,
Speaker 2: and the devaluation, whereas in the twin Flame they call
Speaker 2: it the love bubble and then the triggering or the mirroring,
Speaker 2: and they bounce back and forth through that a lot.
Speaker 2: But it's all under the guise of it's your soulmate,
Speaker 2: it's your soul connection, and it's a spiritual connection, all
Speaker 2: these things that you're going through, But the basics of
Speaker 2: it is your one soul and split off. You're not
Speaker 2: your own person, and you're searching for this other person
Speaker 2: to complete you so your soul can come back together.
Speaker 1: Candice, people who hold belief systems, do they believe this
Speaker 1: to be true of all people or that only there's
Speaker 1: certain chosen people who have this twin flame experience that
Speaker 1: they are going to find.
Speaker 2: Well, it depends on who you ask. There's many people
Speaker 2: that are in the twin Flame community that believe it's
Speaker 2: only a special people, and they'll take that number one
Speaker 2: hundred and forty four thousand out of the Book of
Speaker 2: Revelation in the Biblical text. They'll say that, oh, there's
Speaker 2: only one hundred and forty four thousand. Then there's those
Speaker 2: that will say, well, everybody has a twin flame, so
Speaker 2: it's kind of like in the entire twin flame community.
Speaker 2: People will have different perceptions of it and beliefs of it.
Speaker 2: But yes, you'd say most of them, there's only special
Speaker 2: chosen people that have a twin flame.
Speaker 1: So many follow up questions right now, No, it's not
Speaker 1: even that confusing. Actually, I'll tell you, as you were talking,
Speaker 1: I got a chill for how frightening this would be.
Speaker 1: And from a narcissistic relationship perspective, I want to go
Speaker 1: backwards for a second. I'm just going to put on
Speaker 1: my straight up statistician hat on this one. There are
Speaker 1: seven billion people on the planet, okay, and one of them,
Speaker 1: only one is our twin flame. So that's a one
Speaker 1: in seven billion shot. If you don't hold to the one
Speaker 1: hundred and forty four thousand, then it's seven billion, one
Speaker 1: in seven billion, right, those odds are already troubling, But
Speaker 1: we live spread all over the planet. In this model,
Speaker 1: is a conceivable that a person who lives in Los
Speaker 1: Angeles that her twin flame could be on Mauritius or Madagascar.
Speaker 2: And it's funny that you bring this up, because the
Speaker 2: majority of people that claim they found their twin flame
Speaker 2: a lot of times have never met them in person.
Speaker 2: They've met them online, and they're living in another country
Speaker 2: or another state. So most of the time it'll be
Speaker 2: someone that you haven't even met in person. And there's
Speaker 2: even those that believe that their twin flame is out
Speaker 2: there and they've connected with them on a spiritual level.
Speaker 2: But yes, that happens a lot.
Speaker 1: Actually, because that means Candae that this entire model of
Speaker 1: twin flame something that feels so primal that even hearkens
Speaker 1: back to the Book of Revelations. One would imagine that
Speaker 1: twin flames always existed, but the internet did not, nor
Speaker 1: did phones, So you know, that would mean that there
Speaker 1: were times when it seems like that everyone was walking
Speaker 1: around without a twin flame. So it kind of doesn't
Speaker 1: sort of hold the smell test, you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of it's certainly a very convenient modern model, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't work backwards. Another question, given that under this model
Speaker 1: most people will never meet their twin flame, is the
Speaker 1: assumption then that everybody else in the world who doesn't
Speaker 1: meet their twin flame is walking around in a less
Speaker 1: than ideal relationship.
Speaker 2: A lot of times they'll just say that those people
Speaker 2: just aren't awakened, because what it does, it's almost very
Speaker 2: cult like when you're in the community where it's I mean,
Speaker 2: it's not kind of it is really, if I'm being honest,
Speaker 2: it is very cult like where you are the special
Speaker 2: chosen people and all the other people they just don't understand,
Speaker 2: not that they they're not a twin flame, so they're
Speaker 2: not sharing their soul with anyone. So for them, they
Speaker 2: can just be with each other and it's not this
Speaker 2: intense soulmate connection. Does that make sense? It doesn't just
Speaker 2: a regular person. You're not special like we.
Speaker 1: Are, right, So there's that specialness piece, which you're right.
Speaker 1: It really gets into dangerous territory. Here's where I'm concerned.
Speaker 1: Is this idea that there's only one so whenever that
Speaker 1: person comes, there's an assumption that there'll be some level
Speaker 1: of recognition you have I have found this person. They've
Speaker 1: built into the model of twin flames that you're actually
Speaker 1: going to be really kind of chaotic and almost uncomfortable
Speaker 1: and insecure and unsettled at that time, and your insecurities,
Speaker 1: like you said, are going to get triggered. So what
Speaker 1: concerns me is that a person may meet someone somehow
Speaker 1: they've convinced themselves that this is my twin flame. They're
Speaker 1: told that you're supposed to be uncomfortable, but if you
Speaker 1: this is your only person once in a lifetime, you
Speaker 1: may actually endure some really really terrible things in a relationship.
Speaker 1: And in essence, what they're doing is packaging toxicity in
Speaker 1: a way that people might stick it out. That really
Speaker 1: concerns me.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what happens. It's glamorized narcissistic abuse because most
Speaker 2: of the people that come upon the twin flame are
Speaker 2: either in a toxic relationship already, and the twin flame
Speaker 2: is very intoxicating because it helps you to rationalize why
Speaker 2: you're getting bread crumbed.
Speaker 1: Candice, just use the term breadcrumbing, which is a common
Speaker 1: experience in narcissistically abusive relationships. Basically, you learn to get
Speaker 1: by on less and less. Thus the little breadcrumbs that
Speaker 1: they toss you, you can justify those bread crumbs as
Speaker 1: being enough. This is a slow process of indoctrination and
Speaker 1: the segue from love bombing and exc of attention to
Speaker 1: you getting excited about tiny little things like them remembering
Speaker 1: to say happy birthday, that starts feeling like a big
Speaker 1: deal when you are breadcrumbed. It's so gradual that you
Speaker 1: start to lose sight of what actually is a healthy
Speaker 1: relationship and how you learn to get by on so
Speaker 1: little support, compassion, respect, and basic decency in a relationship.
Speaker 2: Why you're getting discarded, why your partner keeps cheating and
Speaker 2: doing drugs and you keep wanting to be with them
Speaker 2: because you don't really understand what a trauma.
Speaker 1: Bond is as a reminder, because you can never learn
Speaker 1: this too much. Trauma bonding is the dysfunctional relationship cycle
Speaker 1: that forms from the alternation between idealization and invalidation. The
Speaker 1: good days keep you locked in, and you find yourself
Speaker 1: justifying the bad behavior in the relationship. This is a
Speaker 1: particularly dastardly play on the trauma bond because even the
Speaker 1: bad parts are being upheld as great because they are
Speaker 1: a sign that you're doing it right, when in fact
Speaker 1: they should be assigned to pay attention, protect yourself, or
Speaker 1: get out. Commandeering the trauma bonded cycle and painting it
Speaker 1: as good is a terrible precedent, and.
Speaker 2: It sounds more glamorous to say, oh, this is my soulmate,
Speaker 2: my twin flame. You don't want to say, oh well,
Speaker 2: I'm trauma bonded and I'm in the cycle of abuse.
Speaker 2: You want to say, oh, well, it's this intoxicating spiritual
Speaker 2: connection and we're special. So it's very, very dangerous because
Speaker 2: in my personal opinion and my experience with the twin Flame,
Speaker 2: I would say ninety percent are in some sort of
Speaker 2: toxic relationship that this twin Flame teachings and dogma is
Speaker 2: helping this person to stay in a codependent, toxic, abusive relationship.
Speaker 2: It helps them to justify it because in the stages
Speaker 2: of it, oh well, you're gonna be triggered and it's
Speaker 2: your responsibility. I mean, we can get into this too.
Speaker 2: As the divine feminine, because most of the people in
Speaker 2: the twin Flame are women. There's men, but it's the
Speaker 2: majority women that they call it the divine feminine. You're
Speaker 2: responsible for all the healing in the relationship because the
Speaker 2: divine feminine is the one that does all the healing,
Speaker 2: all the divine mask going can go off and cheat
Speaker 2: and do drugs and do all these things and you're
Speaker 2: supposed to do these healing, you're supposed to hold space
Speaker 2: for them, So it can get into some very dangerous
Speaker 2: victim blaming as well.
Speaker 1: Did a dude write this model because it seems to
Speaker 1: work real well for them?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Right, it's you know what this feels like. This feels
Speaker 1: like locking down on the trauma bond and throwing away
Speaker 1: the combination, like there's no breaking breaking out of that
Speaker 1: because what you've now done is as it is. We
Speaker 1: come up with so many personal justifications for trauma bonded
Speaker 1: and toxic relationships, but now this is a justification almost
Speaker 1: being handed down from a system saying oh, this feels
Speaker 1: uncomfortable and you're upset and sad and triggered. Keep going,
Speaker 1: you're doing this just right? Yes, okay, yes, yes for
Speaker 1: you personally, Candice, what did you find compelling about the
Speaker 1: idea of a twin flame?
Speaker 2: I was married for fifteen years to a non recovered alcoholic,
Speaker 2: and towards the end of our marriage, I mean, I
Speaker 2: love my husband, but he just could not and did
Speaker 2: not want to get treatment for his alcohol addiction. And
Speaker 2: towards the end of our marriage, I started really going
Speaker 2: to alan on focusing on me and so starting a
Speaker 2: spiritual journey of healing and working on myself. And I
Speaker 2: was searching. I was one of those people that was searching.
Speaker 2: And I am a cult survivor, so I am vulnerable
Speaker 2: to that, and especially back then, I was very, very vulnerable.
Speaker 2: So already being kind of traumabized, having lots of different
Speaker 2: trauma bonds from my childhood, it was easy for me
Speaker 2: to get sucked into this glamorized, toxic spiritual thing. And
Speaker 2: I can say that now, but when you're in it, no,
Speaker 2: you think it's just the most wonderful thing. And I
Speaker 2: read some blogs and I read about it, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is me. I'm a twin flame. I'm going to
Speaker 2: find my twin flame. And so I would do what
Speaker 2: a lot of people do. I would get.
Speaker 3: Tarot card readings, I would get psychic readings, healings and
Speaker 3: different meditations to manifest my twin flame, to call your
Speaker 3: twin flame in like you're sending a message and praying
Speaker 3: to the universe to send you your twin flame.
Speaker 2: And so then after I separated from my husband, I
Speaker 2: met this other man who I decided was my twin flame.
Speaker 2: I did not realize that he was a covert narcissist
Speaker 2: because I was being love bombed like I had never
Speaker 2: been loved bombed before. I never had experienced that. And
Speaker 2: of course he was everything that I have, very attractive,
Speaker 2: love bombed me based he loved bombed me, and I
Speaker 2: fell in love with this person, and I kept getting
Speaker 2: bread crumbed. But the twin flame thing was there to
Speaker 2: justify for me why I kept getting bread crumbed, why
Speaker 2: he would just out of nowhere, just discard me to
Speaker 2: go date another woman, why he would treat me like
Speaker 2: a friend with benefits. And like I said, I didn't
Speaker 2: know what a narcissist was, and I didn't know the
Speaker 2: cycle of narcissistic abuse, and that I was trauma bonded
Speaker 2: to this person. And I kept accepting the breadcrumbs, and
Speaker 2: I kept accepting like he would have a narcissistic rage
Speaker 2: and send me text messages and get his rage, and
Speaker 2: then he'd be done and then we'd go back to
Speaker 2: our little love bubble. So it was like continually the
Speaker 2: cycle and the twin flame stages were identical. They are
Speaker 2: identical to the cycles of narcissistic abuse. And I didn't
Speaker 2: know that until fast forward later healing and my healing
Speaker 2: journey I looked back. I'm like, oh my goodness, I
Speaker 2: was in an abusive relationship with the covert narcissist and
Speaker 2: I did end up after a couple of years of
Speaker 2: that push and pull, that constant cycle. And then also
Speaker 2: because I was in the twin Flame community, told that well,
Speaker 2: you're doing the work for your divine masculine. You need
Speaker 2: to do all these meditations. I even created for myself
Speaker 2: a private Facebook group for those of us because we
Speaker 2: met online. There was a community of women just like
Speaker 2: me in the twin Flame. So I created a private
Speaker 2: Facebook group where we would all get together to do
Speaker 2: meditations to heal our divine masculine. And this went on
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and then there was a point,
Speaker 2: and I don't remember the exact moment, but I remember
Speaker 2: there was that cognitive dissonance going on. Every now and
Speaker 2: then I would get a reality like something would come
Speaker 2: in my brain and be like, Candas, this isn't love,
Speaker 2: you don't deserve this, this isn't right. But then the
Speaker 2: twin Flame thing was there to pull me back in.
Speaker 2: But no, it's spiritual. You have to stick this out.
Speaker 2: It's spiritual.
Speaker 1: Cognitive dissonance is the tension or discomfort we feel when
Speaker 1: things that matter to us are in consistent. I love him,
Speaker 1: he's mean to me, So we do something to break
Speaker 1: through that tension. He just had a bad day at work,
Speaker 1: that's why he was grumpy, and maintain the outcome that
Speaker 1: we want, which is keep loving the person and believing
Speaker 1: that they are a decent person. Cognitive dissonance underlies how
Speaker 1: the trauma bond gets formed, because we may want the
Speaker 1: relationship to work, but it's very inconsistent and hurtful. So
Speaker 1: that's what drives the justification that allows the trauma bonded
Speaker 1: cycles to persist.
Speaker 2: And finally, I don't know how, but I just decided
Speaker 2: I wanted to stop seeing this man. But it was
Speaker 2: really hard to let go of the twin flame teaching
Speaker 2: because it was so ingrained in me, and I wanted
Speaker 2: to hold on to that belief that it was real.
Speaker 2: So I had let go of the actual man, but
Speaker 2: held onto the belief. And then I started saying, well,
Speaker 2: maybe I was wrong, maybe he's not my twin fling,
Speaker 2: maybe there's someone else. It's so incredibly toxic, and you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of people in the twin flame community get
Speaker 2: really angry when you talk about it, but their anger
Speaker 2: is just coming from their cognitive dissonance. They want to
Speaker 2: stay in that because it makes him feel better.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this. When you met this
Speaker 1: man and you thought he was your twin flame, were
Speaker 1: you already in the twin flame community before you met him,
Speaker 1: or was there something about him that made you think
Speaker 1: he was a twin flame. I'm just trying to understand
Speaker 1: sort of how you came to this idea that this
Speaker 1: man was your twin flame.
Speaker 2: Started reading about the twin flame community and what it was,
Speaker 2: so I had it in my mind that I was
Speaker 2: looking for that twin flame. So when I met him,
Speaker 2: and I had met other people, but this guy was
Speaker 2: just very He was very compelling. I was very attracted
Speaker 2: to this person. And he said all the right things.
Speaker 2: And that's what narcissists do, and they love bomb you.
Speaker 2: They study you, and they say all the right So
Speaker 2: he was saying all the right things, so I thought, oh,
Speaker 2: it's him, it has to be so yes, I had
Speaker 2: started in the twin flame community already, and then I
Speaker 2: felt like I had manifested him and called in my
Speaker 2: twin flame.
Speaker 1: So That's the piece I'm trying to understand. So it
Speaker 1: sounds like after your divorce you got into the twin
Speaker 1: Flame community. You hadn't met this guy yet, but after
Speaker 1: your divorce, what drew you to even be interested in
Speaker 1: this concept of twin flame? I see that it wasn't
Speaker 1: attached to a person, but what even drew you to
Speaker 1: that after your divorce.
Speaker 2: That feeling of wanting love and acceptance and being part
Speaker 2: of something that was bigger than you? And like I said,
Speaker 2: I believe it's because I was a cult survivor already,
Speaker 2: So I feel like I was primed for being sucked
Speaker 2: into another cult and it was very easy for me
Speaker 2: to fall into that. I was searching for a special love,
Speaker 2: and everybody searches for that. I understand that. But I
Speaker 2: wanted a deep connection because I I had been married
Speaker 2: to an alcoholic for so long, you know, my youth,
Speaker 2: like two decades of my life, and I wanted something
Speaker 2: special because after all of that, I wanted a special
Speaker 2: relationship where I was loved and nurtured. And I believe
Speaker 2: that the twin Flame thing was where it was.
Speaker 1: And you know, Candice, that is such a human want
Speaker 1: to want a special love story, especially after, like you said,
Speaker 1: having spent two decades in something where your partner really
Speaker 1: wasn't present. That's what alcoholic relationships are, as a person
Speaker 1: who's just simply not there. And so it's a human
Speaker 1: like a human drive to want to be loved and
Speaker 1: want it to be special. And so it completely makes
Speaker 1: sense to me why something like a twin flame concept
Speaker 1: that there could be a special love story. You said
Speaker 1: that the person you met you thought was your twin
Speaker 1: flame was a covert narcissist. What were the patterns that
Speaker 1: this partner was showing that led you to think that
Speaker 1: that's what this person was.
Speaker 2: Because he was never overtly abusive. Everything was like if
Speaker 2: he was mad, he was very passive aggressive. So if
Speaker 2: I said or did something that he didn't like and
Speaker 2: I didn't know about it, what would happen was then
Speaker 2: he would get a narcissistic injury and I didn't know
Speaker 2: what I did. He would rage, but his rages were
Speaker 2: not screaming at me. His rages were texting. He would
Speaker 2: get his phone out in text and like dump all
Speaker 2: of his narcissistic rage on me through a text. And
Speaker 2: as soon as he dumped all that in a text.
Speaker 2: He was better. He was like, Oh, everything's fine, I
Speaker 2: love you. Why don't you come spend the weekend? So
Speaker 2: it was that, and he also refused to have a
Speaker 2: commitment with me, but he wanted me around when we
Speaker 2: were out in public, it was like we were boyfriend
Speaker 2: and girlfriend. But he was always like, but we're just friends, remember,
Speaker 2: But he wanted all the benefits of a sexual romantic
Speaker 2: relationship with no commitment, and everything was very passive. He
Speaker 2: never called me names, but he would rage in his
Speaker 2: text messages. But when we were together, it was always
Speaker 2: constant love bombing.
Speaker 1: And what did that look like? What does a love
Speaker 1: bombing look like?
Speaker 2: That was constant like telling me how amazing that I was,
Speaker 2: how we were just so good together. I was his
Speaker 2: best friend and he just values me so much, and
Speaker 2: he would puff me up and put me up on
Speaker 2: a pedestal and tell me how beautiful I was and
Speaker 2: how I would do my makeup the way he wanted
Speaker 2: me to do my makeup. He would tell me how
Speaker 2: he liked his makeup, how I liked my hair, and
Speaker 2: if I did my hair and everything the way he liked.
Speaker 2: He would just puff me up like it was this
Speaker 2: wonderful thing. But then if there was something that if
Speaker 2: he just felt like he would just randomly discard me
Speaker 2: and say, you know, since we're not together in a relationship,
Speaker 2: I met this girl that I'm going to go date,
Speaker 2: and he would just discard me, and then I would
Speaker 2: be devastated. And then all of a sudden, when that
Speaker 2: didn't work out, he would come right back to me.
Speaker 2: And I didn't understand the trauma bond or the breadcrumbing
Speaker 2: or any of that, but that's when I later. I
Speaker 2: didn't know it at the time, but I looked back
Speaker 2: later and I say covert because I've been with overt
Speaker 2: abusive sociopaths and I know kind of the difference. And
Speaker 2: maybe he wasn't covert, but I felt like he was
Speaker 2: because he was so charming and so sweet most of
Speaker 2: the time. I think the average person would meet a
Speaker 2: covert narcissist and think they're a wonderful person because they are.
Speaker 2: They're good at hiding it, right.
Speaker 1: So the terminology here gets so muddy. That's the reason
Speaker 1: I'm rushing the question because it it becomes a really
Speaker 1: important teaching point too, is that you know, with narcissistic folks,
Speaker 1: because this guy sort of sounded grandiose, charming, charismatic, controlling, rageful, triangulating.
Speaker 1: He almost sounds a little bit like a grandiose narcissist. Okay,
Speaker 1: who you know, you're probably right, right, that's what he
Speaker 1: sounds like. And the reason I say that is we
Speaker 1: often talk about vulnerable narcissists, right, and the vulnerable narcissist
Speaker 1: is kind of the upside down of the grandiose. These
Speaker 1: are the folks that are more resentful, sullen, and titled,
Speaker 1: hold a lot of grievances. They're passive, aggressive, they're angry
Speaker 1: at the world, and they're often not charming or charismatic.
Speaker 1: In fact, sometimes people feel so sorry for them they
Speaker 1: want to rescue them. And the reason I'm asking these
Speaker 1: questions is I want to paint a picture so people understand,
Speaker 1: you know, what was the draw and that charm, that charisma.
Speaker 1: Somebody being really into you, any human being is going
Speaker 1: to be drawn to that. And I think that that's why,
Speaker 1: you know, and I can understand how that would fit
Speaker 1: a sort of twin flame kind of a concept because
Speaker 1: it feels special. It feels very special, And that just
Speaker 1: as a final teaching point, when we use a covert
Speaker 1: overt distinction. One thing that happens is that covert, we're
Speaker 1: usually covert narcissism is like the thoughts and feelings, the
Speaker 1: things we can't see. It's almost like their motivations, a
Speaker 1: little tape that's playing in their head. And the overt
Speaker 1: stuff is the aren't I great angry angry text? It's
Speaker 1: the stuff we can see, the behavior we can see.
Speaker 1: And finally, a final point with you, and this is
Speaker 1: really important, is that it sounds like you were in
Speaker 1: relationships with people who are far far more malignant and
Speaker 1: abusive than this guy. And so then when if you've
Speaker 1: had a continuum of narcissists in your life, sometimes we
Speaker 1: think that, oh, this isn't as bad as that other one,
Speaker 1: so maybe this is a little bit more hidden. And
Speaker 1: so thank you for sharing that, because I think it
Speaker 1: gives us a real jumping off point to clarify some stuff.
Speaker 1: My conversation will continue after this break.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that the covert and the over it does
Speaker 2: get confusing when we try to pinpoint and put a
Speaker 2: label on because you're exactly a thousand percent correct. This
Speaker 2: narcissist was so mild compared to the people that I
Speaker 2: had been around, so I thought, oh, god, so he's
Speaker 2: a covert narcissist and I just didn't know it. But
Speaker 2: what you when you explained it like to me, and
Speaker 2: like that makes a lot of sense, because he really
Speaker 2: wasn't like, like you said, the vulnerable. And I've known
Speaker 2: people like the vulnerable narcissists too. They're constantly victims and
Speaker 2: everyone but them is the problem and poor me. This, yeah,
Speaker 2: the grandiose make it makes a lot of sense. I
Speaker 2: just felt like he was so much better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And granted he's a better narcissist. And
Speaker 1: I have to say, grandiose narcissists often are the better
Speaker 1: narcissists because on their good days, they can be a
Speaker 1: lot of fun, really charming.
Speaker 2: That's what that relationship. It hurt me worse than even
Speaker 2: being with the sociopath, because what the sociopath I knew.
Speaker 2: But with this guy, it hurt me so bad because
Speaker 2: there were so many happy memories of when he was good.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And that's the part that gets you screwed up.
Speaker 1: Those happy memories are what really make the glue of
Speaker 1: the trauma bond, because you really are justifying the bad
Speaker 1: days in the hopes of creating the good days and
Speaker 1: blaming yourself thinking, well, if there was a good day,
Speaker 1: maybe I'm doing something wrong and that's why today is
Speaker 1: a bad day. What you said, though, raised something so
Speaker 1: interesting to me is that so you're in the twin
Speaker 1: flame world, you're reading, you're learning, you meet this guy,
Speaker 1: it feels so special. He feels like you're twin flame.
Speaker 1: You end it when you ended it, Candice, was it
Speaker 1: because you thought he because it wasn't good for you.
Speaker 1: I hear that it wasn't working anymore. But from a
Speaker 1: twin Flames model, does it mean that sometimes people get
Speaker 1: it wrong and they think someone is their twin flame
Speaker 1: and they're not, or are they believed to have failed
Speaker 1: at twin flaming.
Speaker 2: I had these two thoughts, like in my head, had
Speaker 2: the I deserve better, I'm unhappy, But then the but
Speaker 2: it's your spiritual soulmate, it's your other half. Because they literally,
Speaker 2: and I forgot to mention this in the beginning about
Speaker 2: the twin they literally will teach you that you have
Speaker 2: an energetic cord connected to your heart and that person's
Speaker 2: heart that can never be broken. That is one of
Speaker 2: the teachings that there's an energy connection that can never
Speaker 2: be broken. So your conditioned to believe that, and you
Speaker 2: kind of do create it, because we can create energy
Speaker 2: connections with people, and we literally create that energy cord
Speaker 2: tying you energetically to that person. So it is very
Speaker 2: difficult to break away from it. And for me, I
Speaker 2: did go through both. I believe that. Towards the end,
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, maybe I got it wrong, and there's
Speaker 2: someone else that's better that is my actual twin flame,
Speaker 2: and maybe this person wasn't it. And you find ways
Speaker 2: to justify it, like this is part of your spiritual
Speaker 2: journey and you've got to go on, and there's probably
Speaker 2: your real twin flame, and even if this person is
Speaker 2: your twin flame, you just keep going and doing all
Speaker 2: the healing work and they're gonna heal eventually and come
Speaker 2: back to you. It's like the carrot is always dangling
Speaker 2: in front of you, and you never get.
Speaker 1: The carrot correct. It's the carrot being dangled in the
Speaker 1: goalpost moving, which is sort of a really lethal combination.
Speaker 1: How does a twin Flames universe model account for domestic
Speaker 1: violence physical abuse in a relationship depends on the person.
Speaker 2: You're the guru, because there's self appointed gurus. It depends
Speaker 2: on who you're asking. Will say, oh, no, that's terrible.
Speaker 2: You know there, you're still your twin flame, but you
Speaker 2: can't be with them. And then there's the ones that'll
Speaker 2: be like, well, it's still your twin flame, and so
Speaker 2: you need to self reflect on maybe this is a
Speaker 2: past life thing that you guys are working out together.
Speaker 2: They'll come up with some toxic spiritual nonsense to help
Speaker 2: you justify why. And I remember sitting and watching certain
Speaker 2: YouTubers and just like wanting justifications, like searching, like it
Speaker 2: was like an addiction. I wanted my fix to be
Speaker 2: told that this is okay, this is spiritual. So so, yeah,
Speaker 2: they don't handle it well, I wouldn't say they do
Speaker 2: it in the right way.
Speaker 1: No, So you talked about this idea of gurus, and
Speaker 1: you're saying it in the plural. This isn't just one program.
Speaker 1: What I'm hearing is that there's many people out there
Speaker 1: that are spewing out this whole twin Flames thing. It's
Speaker 1: sort of like it's like a twin Flames universe out
Speaker 1: there that.
Speaker 2: Multiple It is one of them that's called well, yeah,
Speaker 2: there is one group and now I don't know them.
Speaker 2: They're from Michigan, the ones that have been written about
Speaker 2: in Vanity Fair. They're a couple. I call them just couples.
Speaker 2: They're just couples that are, in my opinion, exploiting these
Speaker 2: people's pain because they get the pain point, so then
Speaker 2: you're in pain. So you're searching for them. They've got
Speaker 2: the answers, Oh, you've got to sign up for this class,
Speaker 2: or you've got to join this group, You've got to
Speaker 2: do this, and then you're always being told to work
Speaker 2: on yourself. And they'll say, but you're not doing this
Speaker 2: work to get the twin flame. But you know, damn well,
Speaker 2: they're only coming to you because they want the twin flame.
Speaker 2: So you can say that all that you want, but
Speaker 2: you know why they're coming to you. But yes, there's
Speaker 2: if you go on YouTube and put twin flame, you'll
Speaker 2: find hundreds and hundreds and there's even more since I
Speaker 2: have left the twin flame community, and they're selling their
Speaker 2: services to help you manifest your twin flame, to help
Speaker 2: you heal that. There's all kinds of stuff. So they
Speaker 2: that's why I said earlier, it's like a twin flame machine.
Speaker 2: It's like this machine that keeps going. It's this big
Speaker 2: giant business. There's people that make a lot of money
Speaker 2: off of pain. And there's no pretty way to say it.
Speaker 2: They're making a lot of money off your pain because
Speaker 2: they're not really helping you to get out of a
Speaker 2: toxic relationship. They're encouraging you to stay in one because
Speaker 2: it's your twin flame. And when I started talking about this,
Speaker 2: I got a lot of hate for it, Like people
Speaker 2: were really angry people in the twin flame world. But
Speaker 2: it's the truth.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it sounds like it is a money
Speaker 1: making machine, and I think the challenge is is that
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like this is cheap. That people might
Speaker 1: be charging people a lot of money, and this is
Speaker 1: such a vulnerable group of people, people who really might
Speaker 1: be lonely, might be searching for love, maybe coming out
Speaker 1: of a breakup or a devastating end of a relationship.
Speaker 1: These are vulnerable people and when we are that vulnerable,
Speaker 1: we will pay any amount of money to make that
Speaker 1: pain go away. Absolutely, you had had a private Facebook
Speaker 1: right where you said that that's how you were sort
Speaker 1: of connecting with people in this world. That culture, Like,
Speaker 1: what would the culture be of a Facebook group of
Speaker 1: people who were in that shared twin flame culture.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because Okay, so it was mostly women and
Speaker 2: we all got really close. And the funny thing is
Speaker 2: the women that are attracted to these twin flame stuff
Speaker 2: are the same women that end up with narcissists. They're
Speaker 2: not stupid. They're intelligent women, creative women, and have a
Speaker 2: lot going for them. But in the twin flame because
Speaker 2: I also have a private Facebook group now for survivors,
Speaker 2: and it's interesting that you asked me that, because it's
Speaker 2: a very similar dynamic, except in the twin flame it's
Speaker 2: all spiritual. So what would happen is like, let's say
Speaker 2: there's a couple of women in the group that are
Speaker 2: dealing with their twin flame who's a drug addict, or
Speaker 2: they're dealing with their twin flame who's married to somebody else.
Speaker 2: It's some type of toxic dynamic, and we're talking about
Speaker 2: it and supporting each other, but it's all under the
Speaker 2: guise of well, let's do this meditation healing and we
Speaker 2: can send healing energy to him to help him get
Speaker 2: off of drugs, or we can send this healing energy
Speaker 2: to her so she can stop cheating and let's look
Speaker 2: inside of ourselves and figure out, well, why are they cheating? Well,
Speaker 2: you're the same person, you share the same soul, so
Speaker 2: what inside of you is being dishonest? So that victim
Speaker 2: blaming thing, but you don't even know you're doing it.
Speaker 2: You think you're supporting each other. And it's not helpful
Speaker 2: because nobody's encouraged to like get a safety plan, talk
Speaker 2: to a therapist. Like, no one's thinking of it as abuse.
Speaker 2: I guess that's what my point is. It's never talked
Speaker 2: about that it's.
Speaker 1: Abuse, nor does it sound like it's ever being framed
Speaker 1: from other points of view, like trauma or anything like that,
Speaker 1: the things that could potentially make a person vulnerable, or
Speaker 1: a history of trauma, bonded relationships. It sounds like like
Speaker 1: you called it glamorized narcissistic use, which I have to
Speaker 1: say that absolutely, you're absolutely it's it's beautifully packaged twin flames.
Speaker 1: That sounds a lot more glamorous than you know, really
Speaker 1: really abusive, you know, emotionally abusive relationships. So it sounds
Speaker 1: like it was a really tricky universe where in some
Speaker 1: ways people were they were enabling this idea of staying
Speaker 1: in a toxic relationship, so you had all these people
Speaker 1: around you. Because I think about it, Candice, you know,
Speaker 1: I think of how when because I've worked with, you know,
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of clients on this and talk to
Speaker 1: lots of people, and that they'll say, you know, when
Speaker 1: you're going through a tricky time in your relationship, you
Speaker 1: want to talk with friends who will say no, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's going to work out, like they're really into you.
Speaker 1: Don't go to the friend who says run away, right,
Speaker 1: because that's not the good feeling. And it sounds like
Speaker 1: in some ways these Facebook groups were a lot of
Speaker 1: people saying no, no, no, no, it's going to work out,
Speaker 1: And so that would almost keep people trying and staying
Speaker 1: and self blaming in these unhealthy relationships, because this entire
Speaker 1: conversation about twin flames seems to be really embedded in
Speaker 1: false hope.
Speaker 2: Exactly, the false hope, and that's the dangerous part. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's the dangerous part in any abusive relationship. But we
Speaker 2: were all lifting each other up and giving each other
Speaker 2: hope to stay in something toxic, and nobody was really
Speaker 2: saying well, because if you did say it, you weren't
Speaker 2: part of the group. You wouldn't been accepted if you
Speaker 2: did say I think these are abusive relationships because they'll say, oh, no,
Speaker 2: your twin flin can't abuse you. It's not abuse, it's
Speaker 2: you're working these things out because there's something inside of
Speaker 2: you too. And the women, we were always the female
Speaker 2: aspect of the twin was always given like the biggest
Speaker 2: responsibility for fixing everything, and we just we didn't do it.
Speaker 2: But it goes back to what you just said. We
Speaker 2: were giving each other hope and lifting each other up.
Speaker 2: But this is your twin and you could, you know,
Speaker 2: encouraging each other to take care of yourself, but you're
Speaker 2: never in courage to get in the relationship because you
Speaker 2: have this energetic tie where you're always going to be
Speaker 2: connected no matter what. There was never a healthy like,
Speaker 2: maybe this person isn't the one for you, maybe you
Speaker 2: know you ought to think about talking to somebody or
Speaker 2: just getting help or getting out. It was never anything
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: I'm going to pick up on something you brought up.
Speaker 1: You were talking about how the majority of people in
Speaker 1: this community were women. I understand that. I understand that culturally,
Speaker 1: I understand that from oppressive frameworks. I understand from every
Speaker 1: framework you could imagine, but it sounds like, and again
Speaker 1: I'm using the binary here, but it seems like some
Speaker 1: men did come into it. Were the men looking for
Speaker 1: love just like the women were? Was there something different
Speaker 1: about them?
Speaker 2: No, they were looking for the same thing. There just
Speaker 2: wasn't as many of them. So but yeah, it was
Speaker 2: the same thing. They were in toxic relationships with abusive partners,
Speaker 2: on available part partners that were married, and they were
Speaker 2: really looking for the same thing. But the twin flame
Speaker 2: thing seems to attract more women than men. I mean,
Speaker 2: it could be different now, but when I was part
Speaker 2: of it, it was mostly women and like maybe one or
Speaker 2: two men.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's a bit like you have a group of.
Speaker 2: Like twenty people and then a couple of them were
Speaker 2: men and eighteen of them were women.
Speaker 1: Okay, so very disproportionate, And that might be, you know,
Speaker 1: what you'll often see in terms of people's interests. At
Speaker 1: some point in this, especially in this Facebook community and
Speaker 1: online communities, you were talking about twin flames. At what
Speaker 1: point did things start to go sour? Because it sounds
Speaker 1: like you were starting to see it and they were not,
Speaker 1: So how did that play out?
Speaker 2: Well, what happened was I was believing in the twin flame,
Speaker 2: but I was starting to feel like, okay, So I
Speaker 2: didn't want to let go of the idea of the
Speaker 2: twin flame yet, but I wanted to let go of
Speaker 2: the toxic, abusive behaviors that I knew like I could
Speaker 2: not tolerate anymore in my life. But I wanted to
Speaker 2: hold onto the twin flame. So I started opening up
Speaker 2: conversations with people like, you know, what if it's wrong
Speaker 2: that all this time we've been saying that you're supposed
Speaker 2: to feel all this insecurity is being triggered. It's supposed
Speaker 2: to be hard, it's supposed to be you know, terrible
Speaker 2: because you're working out your insecurities and your stuff. And
Speaker 2: I would bring up, maybe that's not what a twin
Speaker 2: flame is. Maybe it should feel good. Because what happened
Speaker 2: was I had started seeing a therapist and she looked
Speaker 2: at me and she says, love doesn't hurt. And I
Speaker 2: know it sounds like that's a simple statement. I should
Speaker 2: have already known that, but with the way my therapist
Speaker 2: said it to me, she said, Candace, love doesn't hurt,
Speaker 2: and that gave me like this big light bulb. And
Speaker 2: so then, like I said, I didn't want to give
Speaker 2: up the twin flame thing, so I started opening up dialogues. Well,
Speaker 2: maybe these stages are wrong, Maybe it's wrong, maybe we
Speaker 2: got this wrong. Maybe you meet your twin flame when
Speaker 2: you're whole and healthy and everything is great and in
Speaker 2: a healthy relationship. And people were pushing back time with that. Well,
Speaker 2: I'm with my twin flame and we went through all
Speaker 2: of these horrible things and we're still together. Like, people
Speaker 2: got very defensive when I started trying to change the dialogue.
Speaker 2: I try to open up a different dialogue too, because
Speaker 2: I because I could no longer reconcile and accept the
Speaker 2: abusive behaviors as something spiritual, but I wanted to still
Speaker 2: believe and the twin flame thing was real.
Speaker 1: So it's interesting that you were still trying to hold
Speaker 1: on to that belief that there would be this one incredible,
Speaker 1: special love story. But you were thinking, it doesn't need
Speaker 1: to be painful. It could be abusive, right, And because
Speaker 1: it sounds like what wasn't happening in these communities was
Speaker 1: a consistent discussion of what constitutes a healthy relationship. That
Speaker 1: was not It was that if this person comes around
Speaker 1: and near twin flame and by definition, by definition, the
Speaker 1: twin flame relationships were chaotic and confusing and inconsistence and
Speaker 1: brought out insecurity. So, like you said, it wasn't just
Speaker 1: glamorized narcissistic abuse. It was sanctioning the idea that from
Speaker 1: the beginning, you should choose somebody who makes you feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: Yes, the whole premise is holding on to the chaos. Wow,
Speaker 2: And that's part of the relationship that you have to accept.
Speaker 2: And that's the part where I was like, I can't
Speaker 2: do that anymore. I just can't. Like I've been working
Speaker 2: on myself, I had a therapist. I can't hold on
Speaker 2: to thinking that this is okay. That if it's a
Speaker 2: divine relationship, and if you believe that your relationship is
Speaker 2: sacred and divine, why would God or the god of
Speaker 2: your understanding send you this horrible person to abuse you
Speaker 2: if you believe that it's a spiritual connection. And I
Speaker 2: was starting to open that stuff up, and that still
Speaker 2: was upsetting people too, because the brainwashing of it is
Speaker 2: so deep, and the human brain is able to be brainwashed,
Speaker 2: and that when you're in that community and everybody's telling
Speaker 2: you that no this is how it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2: It's supposed to be hard, it's supposed to hurt. A
Speaker 2: twin flame relationship is exhausting, and it's gonna you know,
Speaker 2: you're going to have a dark knight of the soul
Speaker 2: and all this stuff that it's supposed to be that way.
Speaker 1: So everything you're saying is that it's a way to
Speaker 1: contextualize every red flag, every healthy experience and take it
Speaker 1: and repurpose it in essence to say you're in something special,
Speaker 1: that all these bad things mean you're in something special.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really probably one of the most twisted
Speaker 1: sales jobs I've ever heard in my life. So because
Speaker 1: these are people's hearts and that phenomenon of defensiveness you
Speaker 1: were talking about, you know, you're talking about things like
Speaker 1: victim shaming, and then you were actually trying and it
Speaker 1: sounds like, in a gentle way saying could we think
Speaker 1: of this differently? That defensiveness that people would have when
Speaker 1: they were deep in it's a real issue that even
Speaker 1: therapist struggle with all the time. Right, this is why
Speaker 1: we can't walk up to someone and say, yo, you
Speaker 1: need to stop using drugs, or hey, you need to
Speaker 1: leave that unhealthy relationship, therapy, substance use treatment, all of
Speaker 1: that is about finding the back door, right, So it's
Speaker 1: the because otherwise people will always defend their position. My
Speaker 1: relationship's fine, you know, just that relationships have stumbling blocks,
Speaker 1: like I don't drink that much, you know, And so
Speaker 1: that defensiveness really speaks to how it's when a person
Speaker 1: is still very much in denial about what is happening
Speaker 1: to them. So as you're bringing this up, people are
Speaker 1: pushing back. You're hearing more victim shaming, You're hearing this
Speaker 1: toxic spirituality. How did you manage this? How did you feel?
Speaker 1: And what did you do?
Speaker 2: It took actually it took a couple of years for
Speaker 2: me to completely and I got to a point where
Speaker 2: I just I didn't completely close the Facebook group, and
Speaker 2: well one of them I did, and then I just
Speaker 2: stopped going in it. I stopped I basically they went
Speaker 2: no content with the twin Flame thing because I had to.
Speaker 2: But it took a process. And during this process, I
Speaker 2: had a friend and he and I would talk about stuff,
Speaker 2: and I started to realize, I'm like, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: I can really have a good time with this person
Speaker 2: and have a relationship or build a relationship and not
Speaker 2: have that twin flame. It was like a relief that
Speaker 2: I didn't have the twin flame stuff in there where
Speaker 2: I was constantly looking. So it was a combination of
Speaker 2: me no longer being able to reconcile with the abusive
Speaker 2: behaviors that were being justified, the people pushing back. I
Speaker 2: wasn't emotionally really in a place where I could handle that.
Speaker 2: It became very The hate and anger from people was
Speaker 2: bothering me. So that made it easier for me to
Speaker 2: just kind of like, Okay, I'm not doing the twin
Speaker 2: flame thing anymore. I'm just gonna like not do it
Speaker 2: at all. And I had this friend and we would talk,
Speaker 2: and I realized like how much nicer it was that
Speaker 2: I felt, how I felt that I could feel good
Speaker 2: and be with somebody and it didn't have to be like, oh,
Speaker 2: but it's not because you're not having chaos. It's okay
Speaker 2: to say, oh, well this is you know, because at
Speaker 2: first you're like, well this is kind of boring, but
Speaker 2: I was used to the chaos. So as I was
Speaker 2: in this other relationship with this person, I realized the
Speaker 2: peacefulness of not having all of that not being abused
Speaker 2: and not having this toxic spiritual stuff telling me that
Speaker 2: you know, if you want this special person, you have
Speaker 2: to suffer to get it. So it was a at
Speaker 2: least two year process of really letting it go.
Speaker 1: It took you two years what is really And I
Speaker 1: hope you do think of this strength because it takes
Speaker 1: a lot of strength to hold your ground on saying
Speaker 1: this doesn't feel healthy when everyone else had so much
Speaker 1: anger and were so stuck in their conviction. Right, It's
Speaker 1: really hard to because you for a long time you
Speaker 1: kind of agreed with what they were saying. It's not
Speaker 1: like you were coming in with disagreement. From the beginning,
Speaker 1: you agreed with them. You started having an awakening around
Speaker 1: this doesn't seem great, and then you come up against
Speaker 1: their anger and conviction. It's really hard to not cave
Speaker 1: What helped you, what gave you that strength that stopped
Speaker 1: you from caving in and sort of going back into
Speaker 1: what they still believed.
Speaker 2: When I started learning what narcissistic abuse was, when I
Speaker 2: started watching your YouTube channel, doctor Les Carter, and there
Speaker 2: was some other people when I started watching you guys
Speaker 2: on YouTube, and I finally I was like, I felt heard,
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my goodness, this is what was happening
Speaker 2: to me. And that was a huge component for me
Speaker 2: to be able to see the twin Flame thing for
Speaker 2: what it was. And it still took me some time
Speaker 2: because I went and dissected. I have to analyze everything,
Speaker 2: and so I had to dissect all of this. Why
Speaker 2: did I do this? Why this, and why that? But
Speaker 2: when I learned about what narcissistic abuse was, it's just like, Oh,
Speaker 2: this is what's happening. This isn't spiritual. I was being abused.
Speaker 2: There was nothing spiritual about it. And I actually got
Speaker 2: a little angry. So I probably pissed some people off
Speaker 2: because I was like, no, this is abuse. You guys
Speaker 2: are putting up with abuse. And I was angry kind
Speaker 2: of myself. Of course, that's what you go through when
Speaker 2: you're healing. You're like, why did I think this, Why
Speaker 2: did I believe this? Why did I let myself get
Speaker 2: sucked into it? And learning to just be like, give
Speaker 2: myself some compassion.
Speaker 1: When Candice became aware of the abusive dynamics of these
Speaker 1: twin Flames relationships, she became angry, and part of that
Speaker 1: anger was directed at herself. While this is a very
Speaker 1: common dynamic for survivors. It can also be problematic because
Speaker 1: even during the process of recovery and healing, this self
Speaker 1: blame process can be firmly entrenched, and letting this go
Speaker 1: becomes a big part of.
Speaker 2: Healing, instead of trying to give all these abuse use
Speaker 2: of people, hope and compassion, giving it to myself. But
Speaker 2: that was the biggest thing, learning that I was being abused.
Speaker 2: And that's a hard thing to say, that I was
Speaker 2: being abused and I didn't realize it.
Speaker 1: I find that for many survivors, that moment of when
Speaker 1: you say I was being abused. A lot of people
Speaker 1: don't even think the word abuse applies to their situation.
Speaker 1: So that moment when you say, yeah, I know this
Speaker 1: is this word fits, it's a big moment. Did you
Speaker 1: herd right? It's very very hard and you did. And
Speaker 1: that anger anger is you know, anger is one of
Speaker 1: those emotions that kind of gets a bad rap because
Speaker 1: I think if people express it in a bad way,
Speaker 1: it could be used in a bad way. But anger
Speaker 1: is a very motivating emotion, you know, and harness the
Speaker 1: right way, it can really help people make some change.
Speaker 1: You said that learning about narcissistic abuse was really sort
Speaker 1: of catalyst for you to see this clearity and saying, hey,
Speaker 1: we're all being abused. Did you ever attempt Did you
Speaker 1: ever attempt to share that content video information and have
Speaker 1: that conversation about narcissistic abuse with people in your twin
Speaker 1: Flames community?
Speaker 2: I did with one person, and she bothered me the
Speaker 2: most because I thought her and I were closer than
Speaker 2: it was. She's the one that got the most angry
Speaker 2: when I was talking about it, and she you know,
Speaker 2: of course, as I was talking to her, I'm thinking, well,
Speaker 2: maybe she's kind of a narcissist too, Like she really
Speaker 2: attacked me, and I did. I tried, and then, like
Speaker 2: I said, the attacks were too much for me. I
Speaker 2: was still trying to heal and understand that I had
Speaker 2: been being abused, and so that was just too much,
Speaker 2: and I thought, well, maybe this is not my mission.
Speaker 2: And that's when I started moving into wards, like I
Speaker 2: know what I'm supposed to be doing now, working with
Speaker 2: survivors and helping them. And I still try to bring
Speaker 2: in the twin flame thing, and I'll probably start doing
Speaker 2: it more because it doesn't trigger me as much. I'm
Speaker 2: far enough away from it that the anger and stuff.
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's fine, but at the time it really
Speaker 2: really bothered me a lot, so I just had to
Speaker 2: like cut it off. But I tried to share that,
Speaker 2: but it was not received well.
Speaker 1: I think that what you experienced in that twin Flame
Speaker 1: community is what a lot of survivors, even outside a
Speaker 1: sort of a space like twin Flames, you know, even
Speaker 1: in their families, friend groups, church groups, anything that they'll
Speaker 1: often put a lot of energy and trying to teach
Speaker 1: and awaken people to say, you know, this isn't unhealthy
Speaker 1: and really try to teach them about narcissistic abuse, and
Speaker 1: they'll get a lot of pushback and that can be
Speaker 1: quite heartbreaking, but it's almost the wrong target to chase
Speaker 1: that the real work is done on yourself. And also,
Speaker 1: like you said, reaching out to people who will benefit
Speaker 1: from your empathy, because the people who can't, who aren't denial,
Speaker 1: who can't see it. I find in my work too.
Speaker 1: I mean, every so often person will say I knew
Speaker 1: something was wrong, but now I have a name, thank you.
Speaker 1: But somebody who is zealously committed to this concept in
Speaker 1: this case twin Flames, there's no turning that around, so
Speaker 1: you're sort of switch to talking to survivors. It's like
Speaker 1: the people who say I just can't talk with the
Speaker 1: people and my family anymore, they're not willing to get it,
Speaker 1: and they're actually willing to let me stay in a
Speaker 1: really toxic relationship to keep their vision of the world.
Speaker 1: It's a really hard moment, whether it's family or a community.
Speaker 1: It's painful when you recognize that people care more about
Speaker 1: the idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you said it perfectly. Because when I left that
Speaker 2: then I started just creating my podcast originally just so
Speaker 2: I could talk like I needed to talk. I wasn't
Speaker 2: expecting anybody to even like just my close friends and
Speaker 2: people that knew I was doing it just to talk.
Speaker 2: And it was so much easier than people that were
Speaker 2: going to come to me they wanted to hear from me.
Speaker 2: I didn't have to convince them like, oh, you're in
Speaker 2: an abusive relationship or you're in this. They would just
Speaker 2: come to me and just want to talk about it.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, okay, this is so much better
Speaker 2: and trying to convince someone they already know and they
Speaker 2: already related. But it was a long and I'm we're
Speaker 2: still healing. I'm still a work in progress, but it was.
Speaker 2: It's crazy to look back on that and how our
Speaker 2: culture and society kind of actually feeds into this, that
Speaker 2: special Disney relationship and that you need to be kissed
Speaker 2: to be woken up. And you know, snow White can't
Speaker 2: wake herself up, she needs him to come kiss her
Speaker 2: and wake her up, and you know all that that's
Speaker 2: a big ingrained thing in our society. I think. So
Speaker 2: that's why it's so easy, like to find the twin
Speaker 2: flame and then oh, I'm special, I've got this special relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it is a bit almost childlike right to
Speaker 1: want that kind of you know, instead of doing the
Speaker 1: hard work of shared values, orienting to growth, compassion, respect, reciprocity,
Speaker 1: the stuff that makes an adult relationship. This idea that
Speaker 1: I'm going to be sleeping and someone is non consensually,
Speaker 1: by the way, going to kiss me and that's going
Speaker 1: to wake me up and everything's going to be fine.
Speaker 1: It is a very passive and childlike conception. We will
Speaker 1: be right back with this conversation. So you've been talking
Speaker 1: a bit about toxic spirituality. I would like to unpack
Speaker 1: that for a minute, because I think that really really
Speaker 1: dovetails with narcissism. Can you talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: toxic spirituality and how it showed up here?
Speaker 2: Yes, And I even see it in the survivor community
Speaker 2: when they blend it with a spirituality. For me, one
Speaker 2: of the biggest things I see is the manifestation thing. Now,
Speaker 2: I do believe that what we put out we get
Speaker 2: back to us. Yes, that that's the law of our universe.
Speaker 2: But then they'll take this manifestation thing to another level
Speaker 2: and tell you, well, you manifested that narcissist. I hate
Speaker 2: hearing that so much. I just cannot stand it. You
Speaker 2: manifested that relationship because there was something inside of you
Speaker 2: that needed healing. That's a big one. I hear a lot,
Speaker 2: and it drives me absolutely. I hate it. I hate
Speaker 2: hearing it and it triggers me, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: no one manifests abuse. They're looking for love. You think
Speaker 2: that this narcissist is love bombing you. They're tricking you
Speaker 2: like I didn't allow this or manifest this. And that's
Speaker 2: one of the big things. And in the twin flame thing,
Speaker 2: the toxic thing is, well, there's something inside of you
Speaker 2: basically causing your divine masculine to go do drugs. There's
Speaker 2: something inside of you and it's your job to heal it.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the twin flame thing. If we're just
Speaker 2: talking in general toxic spirituality, one of the biggest is
Speaker 2: that manifestation thing that you manifested everything that's happening to you.
Speaker 2: And for a survivor, that is a horrible thing to
Speaker 2: say to them, but they do. They say it, or that, oh,
Speaker 2: you're an impath and that means that you know, you're
Speaker 2: a walking trauma response. I mean, no, being an impath
Speaker 2: is everybody has empathy. Every human being has empathy, and
Speaker 2: some just have more heightened empathy than others. It is
Speaker 2: being a human being, a healthy human And to say
Speaker 2: that that means that it's a trauma response. No, it's
Speaker 2: not a trauma response. You're talking about like codependency trauma.
Speaker 2: Not every single impath has an abusive relationship. There's many
Speaker 2: people that identify as impaths that are in healthy relationships
Speaker 2: and they're empowered. That has nothing to do with it.
Speaker 2: But then I guess it's like putting a lot of
Speaker 2: labels on things and blaming you for why these things
Speaker 2: are happening. With under the guise of like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: you manifested this, so there's something in your past life
Speaker 2: maybe that you're working out, or there's some type of karma,
Speaker 2: just something.
Speaker 1: The twisting of what the complex notions of karma are.
Speaker 1: Because here's what you know interesting. I actually don't believe
Speaker 1: people do get back what they put out because I've
Speaker 1: seen too many people who are angels among us who
Speaker 1: continue to get hammered by life. And I also see
Speaker 1: people who are absolutely horrible people and many, many good
Speaker 1: things come their way. So I actually think that there's
Speaker 1: absolutely no sense in any of this in terms of
Speaker 1: just sort of the events that happen that very good people,
Speaker 1: even when they keep getting hit with bad things, they
Speaker 1: will often have a remarkable capacity to just have really
Speaker 1: broad shoulders, cope up under it, find meaning and purpose
Speaker 1: of some kind in it. They'll do that. And this
Speaker 1: idea of manifestation again, that's almost a whole another episode,
Speaker 1: because it's the it is an a, the ultimate ultimate
Speaker 1: ultimate and victim blaming and something you said here that
Speaker 1: it is something in you needed healing. I it is
Speaker 1: just me. I mean, you can watch my hands just
Speaker 1: turn into fists. And I've never touched a human being
Speaker 1: in my life, But it is how could you, how
Speaker 1: could you sort of harness this process? Because one thing
Speaker 1: we know statistically in the research, people who have had
Speaker 1: histories of trauma are more likely to experience future trauma.
Speaker 1: But there's a whole host of reasons for why that happened,
Speaker 1: because you may know, it's.
Speaker 2: A lot of times you stay with what you know,
Speaker 2: it feels familiar and you think and it's it. I
Speaker 2: don't know, but it's not. You didn't manifest.
Speaker 1: Nobody manifest No, And so what they're doing is they're
Speaker 1: blaming people for what is a probabilistic process, which is retraumatization.
Speaker 1: And we know this is so complicated that they are
Speaker 1: traumatogenic environments, there are cultural issues, we know that people
Speaker 1: are smaller, are more likely to experience trauma. All of
Speaker 1: those things happen, and that then you might literally be
Speaker 1: blaming entire classes of people for not manifesting properly. And
Speaker 1: hell no, that's not happening when they're in.
Speaker 2: A situation where if it's systemic racism or any type
Speaker 2: of thing where they're in that and that's not their fault. No,
Speaker 2: But and you're telling them, well, you manage if a
Speaker 2: child is killed, or it's like, what do you mean
Speaker 2: this child man? That doesn't make any sense, but it's all.
Speaker 2: And I always say in a lot of my social
Speaker 2: media and like new age spirituality is full of narcissism,
Speaker 2: abuse and this toxic spirituality thing. And that's another thing.
Speaker 2: People get triggered when you talk about it. I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: you didn't. And I'll even hear people actually say and
Speaker 2: take on the responsibility. A lot of gurus and teachers
Speaker 2: and coaches will say, well, I manifested the abusive relationships
Speaker 2: and I'm owning that. And I said to a girl
Speaker 2: one time, I go, you did not manifest your abuse.
Speaker 2: She got mad at me for saying that I was
Speaker 2: letting her off the hook, like you did not manifest
Speaker 2: that abuse. Like you're responsible for your healing journey and
Speaker 2: going to get help, but you are not responsible for
Speaker 2: the abuser and that person coming into your life. And
Speaker 2: that is almost to me, even worse than the twin
Speaker 2: flame thing is when you're making and there's tons and
Speaker 2: tons and tons of these people talking about it and
Speaker 2: I do, I get really triggered and it doesn't makes
Speaker 2: me am or like you said, you're making fists. I
Speaker 2: get really fired up.
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, like, no, I'm curious, Candice, other than
Speaker 1: the narcissistic dynamics we've been talking about, which really I'm
Speaker 1: hearing now that twin flames relationships are literally a system
Speaker 1: that normalizes and even validates relationships that feel unhealthy from
Speaker 1: the beginning, and also upholds the idea that a person
Speaker 1: should stay in something that is unhealthy or abusive because
Speaker 1: it is their twin flame and this is supposed to
Speaker 1: be difficult. I hear all of that. Is there anything
Speaker 1: like sort of when people come together as twin flames?
Speaker 1: Is there kind of a consistent thing you see? This
Speaker 1: is what I'm trying. I'm trying to get at, Like,
Speaker 1: is it older men in younger women or older women
Speaker 1: in younger men, or is there anything we see in
Speaker 1: these relationships that allow other sort of dominating dynamics to
Speaker 1: also maintain.
Speaker 2: Yes, And many times there's a huge age difference. There
Speaker 2: will be culture differences, but the big age difference is
Speaker 2: a big thing where the man will usually be a
Speaker 2: lot twenty some years older, and they say, well that's normal,
Speaker 2: that's when you incarnate it on the planet. And they'll
Speaker 2: make a justification for that, but many types of connections
Speaker 2: for that. Yes, but a lot of older men and
Speaker 2: younger women type dynamic where they've got the power and
Speaker 2: the control.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. And again, you also talked about this idea
Speaker 1: of masculine feminine divine masculine divine feminine, and it seems
Speaker 1: like the way the Twin Flames model is constructing this
Speaker 1: masculine idea is of dominance power, and femininity is about
Speaker 1: caregiving and yielding. Am I hearing that right?
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, the female is supposed to be the most
Speaker 2: spiritually awakened and she's got the biggest responsibility for the connection,
Speaker 2: whereas the masculine he gets off the hook because he's
Speaker 2: not awakened yet, so it's okay for him to be
Speaker 2: doing all these things that are not good for our relationship.
Speaker 2: And that's okay. You're justifying it because you're the awakened one,
Speaker 2: so you have to carry him. But yes, they'll talk
Speaker 2: about it in the healthy way of what it is,
Speaker 2: but the words and the talking never match the actions
Speaker 2: of the relationship that you're in, if that makes sense,
Speaker 2: Like they'll like, I could buy a webinar and someone's
Speaker 2: talking about masculine and feminine energy, and they're saying all
Speaker 2: these great things, but then okay, but I'm with this
Speaker 2: person that's addicted to crack, Like how is that gonna work?
Speaker 2: And that's never addressed. It's like, well, you've got to
Speaker 2: keep doing the healing.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a question though, because you
Speaker 1: know masculine feminine. Obviously you're saying it's energetic, but it
Speaker 1: does feel heteronormative to me. How does this play out
Speaker 1: in queer relationships?
Speaker 2: Well, and that's a good question too, because in the beginning,
Speaker 2: when twin Flames started, there was people that say it's
Speaker 2: only can be a natural born male and a natural
Speaker 2: born female. And so they've evolved because they know they
Speaker 2: have to evolve and accept other.
Speaker 1: People, so trying to make money that works, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: So they had to go of that dogma and evolve
Speaker 2: and accept everybody. So the way they did that is
Speaker 2: through energy. Like you could be a lesbian couple and
Speaker 2: one in the pair feels more in touch with her
Speaker 2: masculine energy and the other one feels more in touch
Speaker 2: with her feminine So then the one that feels more
Speaker 2: in touch with her masculine energy is the masculine twin,
Speaker 2: and then the other one is the feminine twin, and
Speaker 2: they'll do it vice versa. However, you know, and any
Speaker 2: type of.
Speaker 1: Relationship same with two men, one is the more, Okay?
Speaker 1: And is there any place for a non binary or
Speaker 1: trans people in the Twin Flames world?
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm not sure about the trand but I'm sure
Speaker 2: that they do. I'm sure that they do because they
Speaker 2: un start when I was in it. They want to
Speaker 2: tell you what you want to hear. Yeah, that's really
Speaker 2: what it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I can see that. It's sort of
Speaker 1: like they're building the airplane in the sky to be
Speaker 1: able to keep interest. So you continue to talk to people,
Speaker 1: you're no longer in the Twin Flames world, you continue
Speaker 1: to talk to people. Do you continue to work with
Speaker 1: people are trying to get out of the twin Flames world?
Speaker 1: Can you talk to us a little bit about how
Speaker 1: you're working with survivor.
Speaker 2: I have a couple of women that I would say
Speaker 2: I have really good friendships with them, and they've been
Speaker 2: on their own kind of journey of I'll let them
Speaker 2: tell me on their own. Oh, I'm done with the
Speaker 2: twin flame thing. I'm not gonna you know, I don't
Speaker 2: press because I know what it's like, so I don't
Speaker 2: press them. I just like to I like to just
Speaker 2: be there for them to listen. But yes, there are
Speaker 2: some women that I will talk to and we talk
Speaker 2: about it together, and I just let them be where
Speaker 2: they're at. I have one really close friend who's wonderful
Speaker 2: and she's very much believes you know, she was in
Speaker 2: a toxic relationship with a narcissist and she's very spiritually
Speaker 2: minded and she really believes he was her twin flame.
Speaker 2: I'm just I guess I've learned to approach it in
Speaker 2: a more delicate way, like you said, come in the
Speaker 2: back door, instead of just being like, now, you know,
Speaker 2: there's no such thing as twin flames, because she's not
Speaker 2: going to listen to me. So I'm just there for
Speaker 2: her and I give her information when she needs to be.
Speaker 2: But yes, I do delicately. Now have some women that
Speaker 2: I'm close to that I can talk to them because
Speaker 2: they know where I stand. So I just try to
Speaker 2: make a safe space for them so that they can
Speaker 2: come to me, like in the future when they realize
Speaker 2: that they have their own realization that oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: you were right.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. One thing that twin Flames builds on is
Speaker 1: this idea of scarcity, right, if something is scarce. I'm
Speaker 1: going to give you a very simple example. If something's
Speaker 1: on sale and there's only one of it left and
Speaker 1: you don't need it, you might buy it because there's
Speaker 1: only one of it left. This idea of that there's
Speaker 1: only this one person, that's what creates buy in And
Speaker 1: even in non twin Flame narcissistic relationships, pressures around things
Speaker 1: like age and I'm getting too old to have a child,
Speaker 1: I'm getting too old to date. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: find anyone. Whatever it is, whatever is happening in their mindset,
Speaker 1: it creates that same kind of scarcity. And I think
Speaker 1: that part of the reason this twin Flames model has
Speaker 1: so much power and it's keeping people so stuck and
Speaker 1: so subjugated in something that's hurting them, is that it's
Speaker 1: built around scarcity specialness. Is twin Flame still a very
Speaker 1: robust community out there? Are there still lots of people
Speaker 1: getting pulled into it?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and a lot of younger people too, So
Speaker 2: it's it's even bigger than it was when I was
Speaker 2: part of it.
Speaker 1: It's like even bigger wow, and it's all over the world. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you this because we're coming
Speaker 1: towards the end here. First of all, how are you
Speaker 1: doing now after all you've been through? How has having
Speaker 1: gone through what you've gone through from cultic systems in childhood,
Speaker 1: a long term, difficult marriage with somebody who was an
Speaker 1: unrecovered alcoholic twin flames? How are you doing now? And
Speaker 1: how has all of this together affected your perspective on
Speaker 1: love and on relationships.
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm finally at a place where I
Speaker 2: can be like honest about like everything that I went through,
Speaker 2: Like I don't have to be embarrassed to tell people
Speaker 2: that I was raised in a cult or that I
Speaker 2: got stuck into the twin flame thing. And then it's
Speaker 2: given me this wisdom where I can relate better to
Speaker 2: other survivors and to be like, you know, I understand,
Speaker 2: and I understand where you're coming from where you've been,
Speaker 2: And it's just a wisdom that I have had that
Speaker 2: I from every hardship and all of this craziness, there's
Speaker 2: like this wisdom that I have that I feel blessed
Speaker 2: almost in a weird way, that I went through all
Speaker 2: of this, because now I can understand when someone's like
Speaker 2: embarrassed to talk about like I got sucked into this
Speaker 2: thing and I'm embarrassed, or I stayed in this relationship
Speaker 2: and I'm embarrassed. I'm like, there's nothing to be embarrassed about,
Speaker 2: because you know, you're human, you went through this experience,
Speaker 2: and I can be there to hold that space for them,
Speaker 2: to help them feel safe to talk about it, to
Speaker 2: know that they're not alone. And that's really the biggest
Speaker 2: thing that I've learned to be able to give back
Speaker 2: to other people and say you're not alone, because if
Speaker 2: I survive that, so can you. But I feel like
Speaker 2: in my life, I finally know what I'm supposed to
Speaker 2: be doing and what you know, a happy relationship isn't
Speaker 2: it supposed to be Like everything that's twin Flame said like, oh,
Speaker 2: you're supposed to suffer, it's supposed to hurt, it's supposed
Speaker 2: to feel like this. I'm like, no, that's not true.
Speaker 2: And learning Actually the biggest thing is learning that it's
Speaker 2: okay to have standards. It's okay to have standards and boundaries,
Speaker 2: and that was like a foreign concepts and you know,
Speaker 2: what do you mean, it's okay to have standards. You
Speaker 2: can have a standard, and your standard doesn't have to
Speaker 2: be the same as someone else's and you don't have
Speaker 2: to apologize for it either, because it's who you are
Speaker 2: and you deserve that. Even if you never meet the
Speaker 2: person that's going to meet that standard, you know that's
Speaker 2: your standard and to have that, that's what everyone needs
Speaker 2: to learn to have, Like, you're allowed to have a standard.
Speaker 2: You're allowed to have that, and to give yourself permission
Speaker 2: to be like, no, I'm not going to budge on
Speaker 2: this because I've been you know, coerced and told that, oh,
Speaker 2: you shouldn't have that, you shouldn't have that standard. You
Speaker 2: shouldn't have that boundary because I was really comfortable when
Speaker 2: you didn't have it. You know.
Speaker 1: Do you still believe in love?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, but not in the way that I did.
Speaker 2: I do, but in a way that I don't think
Speaker 2: the fairy tale like Disney Princess Hollywood thing is real.
Speaker 2: I don't think any of that is real. But yes,
Speaker 2: I still do believe in love, but it's none of
Speaker 2: that where you feel like there has to be adrenaline
Speaker 2: rush all the time and there has to be all
Speaker 2: this passion and anger at this and that to me, no,
Speaker 2: I don't believe it.
Speaker 1: It should feel like that at all, And do good
Speaker 1: my mascus, and you don't have to answer it and
Speaker 1: we don't have to put it on. Is are you
Speaker 1: in a relationship now?
Speaker 2: Yes? You are?
Speaker 1: And does it feel healthy and good?
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, And that's why I can say that all
Speaker 2: that like Hollywood stuff like that's just a fantasy, like
Speaker 2: that everybody's fantasy that's guiding your life to be in
Speaker 2: this fantasy. That that's not what it really is, that's
Speaker 2: not what love is.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: Well, well, they're in the business of selling fantasies, which
Speaker 1: is all very entertaining. But I'm not so sure that
Speaker 1: we should build in entertainment when we're making some of
Speaker 1: the more important decisions in our life, like who we
Speaker 1: want to be in a committed relationship with. So I
Speaker 1: think that that's very wise. Tell us this, Candice, where
Speaker 1: can people find you? Because I know you work with survivors,
Speaker 1: So where can people find you and hear more about you?
Speaker 2: Yes? On my website Unlivingthelie dot com. And I have
Speaker 2: a podcast It's on Spotify, Apple, Amazon, and then I
Speaker 2: also write for a publication online called medium. I write
Speaker 2: about narcissistic abuse, and it's all on my website. All
Speaker 2: the tabs are there that they can find. I'm on Instagram,
Speaker 2: but it's Unliving the Lie. I came up with that
Speaker 2: for my podcast because really, that's what you're doing when
Speaker 2: you're getting out of abuse and all of this. You're
Speaker 2: unliving the lie that you are living. So yeah, that's
Speaker 2: my website, just Unlivingthelie dot com.
Speaker 1: And again, your podcast is also called Unliving the Lie.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, it's on Spotify and Apple podcasts, those are
Speaker 2: the big popular ones.
Speaker 1: Yes. Great, well, I'm so glad you're putting your experience
Speaker 1: out there because I think the more that we can
Speaker 1: shed light on the humanity of the people who go
Speaker 1: through these stories, that these are situations of people who
Speaker 1: just wanted very very basic, normal things, and to lift
Speaker 1: the shame and blame from these stories, so people can say,
Speaker 1: you know what, I understand how this could happen, but
Speaker 1: also could understand the dangers, especially when we try to
Speaker 1: romanticize this idea of chaos and people keep staying in
Speaker 1: these situations. So again, like you said, glamorizing narcissistic abuse
Speaker 1: is something we never that's something we never ever want
Speaker 1: to dress up, you know. And even your point about
Speaker 1: that divine masculine and divine feminine, I think people gravitate
Speaker 1: to those concepts. But you're basically telling me the divine
Speaker 1: feminine's awake, the divine masculines asleep, and now the divine
Speaker 1: feminine is supposed to be sort of the spiritual alarm
Speaker 1: clock for the divine masculine. No thanks, say figure it
Speaker 1: out yourself, my friends. So thank you again. That concludes
Speaker 1: our session. I can't thank you enough for coming on
Speaker 1: sharing your story with us on navigating narcissism. Here are
Speaker 1: my takeaways from my conversation with Candace. First, the nature
Speaker 1: of the twin Flames belief systems that there is just
Speaker 1: one person out there, who is this person sharing one
Speaker 1: soul or experiencing an intense connection is designed to leave
Speaker 1: people doubting red flags and other unsettling patterns. After all,
Speaker 1: if it's uncomfortable, the twin Flames dogma says, that means
Speaker 1: you're doing it right. Candice describes the early days of
Speaker 1: these relationships as a love bubble, and they come with
Speaker 1: a cheering squad of folks who are celebrating your twin
Speaker 1: flame connection and reminding you that it is supposed to
Speaker 1: be unsettling. This is a perfect setup for an un
Speaker 1: unhealthy and even toxic relationship. The real danger of any
Speaker 1: model like this is that it gives a person who
Speaker 1: may already be sliding into a trauma bonded cycle a
Speaker 1: sort of guidebook and system of rationalization for uncomfortable and
Speaker 1: unacceptable behavior within a relationship. When a person is being
Speaker 1: told that confusion and insecurity mean that it is working,
Speaker 1: the enabling offered by these kinds of belief systems can
Speaker 1: keep people stuck in bad situations. In my next takeaway,
Speaker 1: organized teachings that rationalize unhealthy behavior in a relationship as
Speaker 1: a good thing and that capitalize on and exploit the
Speaker 1: basic human desire for a close, loving relationship are simply
Speaker 1: unkind and unhealthy. The organizers of systems that spout toxic
Speaker 1: spirituality benefit financially, while folks who may be lonely, isolated, frustrated,
Speaker 1: or coming out of recent relationship losses and breakups can
Speaker 1: be a ripe target for financial manipulation and the blaming
Speaker 1: dialogue such as maybe you're alone because you aren't manifesting
Speaker 1: hard enough. If you ever feel shamed or blamed when
Speaker 1: you are experiencing uncomfortable behavior in a relationship, Please stop
Speaker 1: and take a hard look at the shamers and blamers,
Speaker 1: because that is not okay. For my next takeaway, when
Speaker 1: a person has had prior narcissistic relationships, as Candace says
Speaker 1: she did, it can be a process of indoctrination, whereby
Speaker 1: she may have not taken note of milder, antagonistic and
Speaker 1: invalidating patterns in new relationships or been accepting of them
Speaker 1: because they weren't as bad as patterns from the past,
Speaker 1: but they're still unhealthy. For this reason, after a narcissistic
Speaker 1: relationship ends, particularly an intimate relationship, it is important that
Speaker 1: you consider giving your self a minute, cool your heels,
Speaker 1: and work on your healing and get centered within yourself.
Speaker 1: One of the most vulnerable times is when a person
Speaker 1: is coming out of a narcissistic relationship, and these are
Speaker 1: the times when folks may be susceptible to mystical promises
Speaker 1: about finding that one true love, which can distract you
Speaker 1: from the much more important work of getting comfortable within yourself.
Speaker 1: And in our last takeaway, Candice reminds us that it
Speaker 1: is so easy to minimize a person who explores this
Speaker 1: idea of twin Flames, as though people who are interested
Speaker 1: in this are just lost souls or weak. That is
Speaker 1: an unkind and frankly dangerous assumption. People are getting saturated
Speaker 1: by all kinds of content on how to find love,
Speaker 1: but in some ways, the mystical hopes and promises offered
Speaker 1: by a framework like twin Flames are appealing to anyone
Speaker 1: who is trying to find deep and real love. Who
Speaker 1: are simply curious and open, but who are also strong
Speaker 1: and solid in their lives may also be drawn to this.
Speaker 1: All of us are at some level susceptible to simple
Speaker 1: promises about finding love, And perhaps the greater lesson is
Speaker 1: that within all of us are the pieces of our soul,
Speaker 1: but they often got so chopped up because we were
Speaker 1: so busy trying to be what other people want us
Speaker 1: to be. Perhaps that other half of your soul is
Speaker 1: simply the part of yourself that you quieted because other
Speaker 1: people invalidated it. Instead of looking outside of us for
Speaker 1: the answers, a story like this reminds us to look
Speaker 1: within