1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 2: Earlier this year, representatives from some of the world's most 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 2: powerful banking institutions met with regulators in a closed door meeting. 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 2: It was February in central Tokyo. The meeting was billed 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 2: as a check in for regulators to see if banks 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: were living up to their promise to reach a net 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: zero emissions goal they'd set years before. They asked the 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 2: bank's questions, how are you actually changing the way your 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: banks operate based on your climate goals? How are you 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 2: ensuring those commitments remain when new CEOs come in? Lots 11 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 2: of wonky questions, all met with boilerplate corporate responses. It 12 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 2: was all pretty boring and standard until Judson Burkie, a 13 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: veteran American banker, chimed in and he. 14 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: Said, basically, you regulators are being totally unrealistic about what 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: is the role of a bank in the energy transition. 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: A bank could get to net zero, they could align 17 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: itself with one point five, but the only way logically 18 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: that you can do that is to get rid of 19 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: most of your clients, and which point you have no business, 20 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: so you know it doesn't really work at this point. 21 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 2: That's my colleague Alistair Marsh who covers esg and climate change, 22 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 2: and he told me that Burkeie was essentially saying the 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 2: quiet part out loud, that the banks considered these goals 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 2: impractical in a world that is already on track to 25 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 2: blow through the best case scenario climate goals. And Burkie 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 2: isn't alone in his sentiment. Over the past couple of years, 27 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 2: the world's biggest banks have been quietly reeling in their 28 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 2: climate ambitions. So what went wrong. 29 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: Today? 30 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 2: On the show? Almost a decade after the landmark Paris Agreement, 31 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: the Final World isn't holding up its end of the bargain. 32 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: Were those promises just lip service? This is the big 33 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 2: cake from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder. In twenty fifteen, 34 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 2: the starting gun on the global race to cut carbon 35 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: emissions was fired in Paris. The vast majority of the 36 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: countries in the world agreed to limit global warming to 37 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: well below two degrees celsius and ideally below one point five. 38 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 2: This consensus is known as the Paris Agreement. 39 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: This is now essentially become the kind of the north Star, 40 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: the ultimate thing that we're aiming for, and so the 41 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: vast majority of corporate financial and government sort of net 42 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: zero ambitions are all around this one point five degrees. 43 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 2: The Paris Agreement was a critical moment when world leaders 44 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 2: came together and made commitments to limit warming. But reaching 45 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: those goals also requires buy in from the private sector. Alistair. 46 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 2: What is a financial firm's role in fighting climate change? 47 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: They're a critical player in fighting climate change, and they 48 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: are also a big contributor to climate change. What we 49 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: talk about with banks is something called financed emissions. 50 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: Sure, banks light up their office buildings and fly their 51 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: staff around the world, but the biggest contribution they make 52 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: to climate change is through their lending and underwriting. 53 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: You through their financing activities. When you lend to an 54 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: exomobile or a shell, when you finance a new mind 55 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: or a new pipeline, the emissions that are locked in 56 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: are enabled by that project. Well, those are financed emissions, 57 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: and that's a big contributor to global warming. And without 58 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,839 Speaker 1: banks providing the money, those emissions wouldn't necessarily be there, 59 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: got it. 60 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: So if the banks cut off the money spigot, then 61 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: maybe the oil will stop flowing too. 62 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: Exactly. The money spigot is often called the money pipeline. 63 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: There's the oil pipeline. There's the money pipeline. 64 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: For a long time, climate activists were not really paying 65 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 2: attention to the money pipeline, and we're more focused on 66 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: the oil pipeline. Think Exon Mobil or Saudi a Ramco. 67 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 2: But a couple of years ago, major Western banks came 68 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: under huge pressure when climate consciousness burst onto the financial 69 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 2: stage at the COP twenty sixth summit in Glasgow. There 70 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: the banks responded by saying, okay, let's do it. We 71 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: will commit to net zero. And it was a huge promise. 72 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: Yes, because financial firms are not just banks with combined 73 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: assets of one hundred and thirty trillion were committed to 74 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: net zero. Essentially, they said that there's enough money here, 75 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: we have it, We're ready, let's go. You know. They 76 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: sent a big signal there. 77 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: This signal brought a moment of hope. In twenty twenty one, 78 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: multiple groups of alliances for net zero were established, a 79 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: mission reduction targets were made, the strategies were laid out, 80 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: and then the banks went home, rolled up their sleeves 81 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 2: and did the math alistair. What did they find? 82 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 1: They found that it was very easy to make a 83 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: press release and put out some sort of marketing with 84 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: the green bow around it, but it's very difficult to 85 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: ed you deliver in practice. 86 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: In part that's because lots of industries and many companies 87 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: have a climate impact that's way beyond the bank's net 88 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 2: zero goals. And one way to measure a company's predicted 89 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: impact on warming is a metric called implied temperature rise. 90 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: It essentially measures the alignment of a company with a 91 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: temperature outcome by which I mean the ambition of Paris 92 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: is one point five, as we discussed, and then you 93 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: can calculate is this is company X aligned with one 94 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: point five or is it aligned with three degrees? Is 95 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: it aligned with six degrees? And actually, if you look 96 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: through a lot of companies, you'll find that, oh my gosh, 97 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: the number that are aligned with one point five is minuscule. 98 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: And it's not just the exxons and shells of the world. 99 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 2: Tons of companies that banks are entangled with, from chip 100 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 2: makers to skincare brands, have large carbon footprints, and severing 101 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 2: ties with all of them is easier said than done. 102 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,559 Speaker 1: For example, Glorial has an implied temperature rise of about 103 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: six degrees I mean six degrees. That's like, well, that's 104 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: the end of the world kind of thing. And then 105 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: there are plenty of other companies that are not digging 106 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: oil or coal out of the ground. Let them make 107 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: a large high carbon contribution, and that would skew the 108 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: metrics of a bank. 109 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: This is a major point Judson Burkey made, the director 110 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: from UBS who spoke passionately at the check and meeting 111 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: in Tokyo. He pointed out that banks simply can't align 112 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: themselves with a one point five degree goal when the 113 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 2: rest of the world is on course for a much 114 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: higher temperature rise. And even if one bank is willing 115 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 2: to turn away a client to get to net zero, 116 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: there are always other banks that are ready to take 117 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 2: the deal. 118 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: If big banks were to pull back from the likes 119 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: of an Exon or a Shell or just some other 120 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: fossil fuel producers. There are a lot of banks in 121 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: India and China that have very different views on coal 122 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: and oil. And then we have plenty of sovereign wealth 123 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: money and from the Middle East, which obviously also has 124 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: different views on oil and gas. There's always that competitive 125 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: thing with banks where I don't want to lose business 126 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: to my competitor. I want to keep my market share, 127 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: and so they've not been very good at making this 128 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: commercially viable. 129 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 2: The world has also gone through a lot of tumults 130 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: since twenty twenty one, which made banks second guess their promises. 131 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: Just a few months after the Glasgow Summit, Putin's troops 132 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: invaded Ukraine that led to a massive energy crisis. The 133 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: fossil fuel businesses that they had been exiting or planning 134 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: to exit suddenly were much more profitable. You know, do 135 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: you really want to stop lending or stop fighting? And 136 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: it's in Excellonomobile or Shell when they're making bumper profits, 137 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: I mean clearly not really, And so there's been a 138 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: real recalibration of what is the role of a bank 139 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: and how should it operate in this environment. Is the 140 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: bank's role to simply be a kind of passive taker 141 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: of the economy as it is and just the funnel 142 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: money to whoever needs it and to find a way 143 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: to make good returns for shareholders, or should they be 144 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: using their weight, the influence, their capital to push something 145 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: that's good for humanity? 146 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 2: Are banks supposed to be making the world a better place? 147 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 2: Or do they exist just to move money around? Can 148 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 2: they realistically do both? Let's discuss after the break. It's 149 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: been almost a decade since the Paris Agreement and three 150 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 2: years since the COP twenty sixth summit, and the world's 151 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: largest banks have been struggling to meet goals to limit 152 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 2: emissions and prevent more harm from climate change. To be clear, 153 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: no bank has dropped out of their COP twenty six 154 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: agreements so far. On paper, everybody says that they remain 155 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 2: committed to net zero goals. But my colleague Alistair says 156 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: banks have been quiet quitting their commitments. 157 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: There is definitely plenty of signs of walking it back, 158 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: being more lenient with the types of dirty businesses that 159 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: you find in and just think about it, the emissions 160 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: in the real world have not gone down since banks 161 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: made these commitments. In fact, they've gone up, and there 162 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: they continue to finance fossil fuel companies, and those dirty 163 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: clients have not decarbonized hardly at all. 164 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 2: In February, around the same time those banks and regulators 165 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: met in Tokyo to review their climate strategies, a string 166 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: of financial heavyweights, including JP Morgan, Asset Management, Specific Investment, 167 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: and State Street Glow Advisors withdrew from Climate Action one 168 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 2: hundred plus the world's largest investor group form to fight 169 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: global warming. All of this raises a broader question, how 170 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: much can we really expect from banks when it comes 171 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 2: to curbing the climate crisis. Yeah, I mean it seems 172 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 2: like banks are saying, birds fly, fish swim. Banks need 173 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: to make money. We can't help it. It's it's just 174 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 2: in our nature. Is that how you're reading this all? 175 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, bank's going to bank. That's basically what it is. Now. 176 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: Let's be honest. This was never going to be easy, 177 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: and I think that the statements in Glasgow were naive 178 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: and they were kind of illusory. Really, they gave the 179 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: impression for getting Yeah, there was a lot of marketing 180 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: and there is the idea that hey, we're going to 181 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: kind of we're going to do this, we're going to 182 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: tackle it. We got we got this, guys. That wasn't 183 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: true at all. And that's partly because, yeah, banks that 184 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: don't control everything. We need governments to do a lot 185 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: of things too, and. 186 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 2: We're seeing some of those governments downgrading their own ambitions 187 00:10:58,600 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 2: around climate change. 188 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: So banks can do a lot, but without the sort 189 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 1: of supportive policies, without the regulatory environments, there's only so 190 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 1: much Banks can do. 191 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: Still, banks command enormous amounts of capital, meaning they're in 192 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: some ways uniquely positioned to take this huge expensive task on. 193 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,559 Speaker 1: Well, the energy transition. The sort of price tag is 194 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: like one hundred trillion dollars give or take. It might 195 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: be a bit more, it might be a bit less, 196 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: but some you know, huge sum of money like that, 197 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: and most of that will need to come from private capital, ie, 198 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: from banks and investors. Governments do need to cough up, 199 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: they do need to contribute, but they don't have the 200 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: resources off the big banks, and you know, the private 201 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: sector broadly needs to lead to the financing of the transition. 202 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: That's kind of just how it has to happen. The 203 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: new message from banks is not that we've abandoned that 204 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: zero it's not that we've given up on our climate goals, 205 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: but that we're only willing to finance transition if it 206 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: makes economic financial sense. I if we can make returns 207 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: from it, we'll do it. But if not, we won't. Remember, 208 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: we're bankers, we're not philanthropists. 209 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: Alistair, what would happen if the finance sector doesn't act? 210 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,599 Speaker 1: There's this great quote from Antonio Gutarra's the head of 211 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: the UN. He says, we need to do everything everywhere, 212 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: all at once, and we probably everyone needs to do 213 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: everything everywhere, all at once. If we have any chance 214 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: of limiting warming from callastrophic heights. That's not up to 215 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: the banks to fix that, of course not, but banks 216 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: can play a big role. So if they are continuing 217 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: to finance dirly projects, or they're not pushing companies to 218 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: think about how and make a plan for how they 219 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: will be carbonized, then that's an opportunity missed and we 220 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: will all pay the price for that. 221 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder. 222 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Young Young and Jessica Beck. 223 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: It was edited by Aaron Edwards and Caitlin Kenney. It 224 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 2: was mixed by Young Young and Veronica Rodriguez. It was 225 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: fact checked by Thomas lu Additional reporting from Natasha White, 226 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 2: Nicole Beamster. Bor is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman 227 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. Thanks for listening to the 228 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: Big Take. We'll be back tomorrow.