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Speaker 1: On December fifteenth, nineteen eighty one, Linda may Craig, a

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Speaker 1: sales associate at the Tri State Mall in Claymont, Delaware,

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Speaker 1: was abducted in her car at the end of her shift.

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Speaker 1: After not arriving home hours after she was due, her

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Speaker 1: husband called the police. Her body was found the following day, beaten, stabbed,

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Speaker 1: and raped in a church parking lot about a mile

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Speaker 1: and a half away from where her car had been discovered.

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Speaker 1: Nikiaris was a troubled young man with serious substance abuse

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Speaker 1: issues growing up in southwest Philadelphia. One fateful night, he

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Speaker 1: was pulled over for a traffic violation in a stolen

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Speaker 1: car while high on meth, and he got into an

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Speaker 1: altercation with the arresting officer, whose gun accidentally discharged. While

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Speaker 1: in jail and facing a laundry list of charges, Yarras

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Speaker 1: spotted a newspaper article about Linda may Craig and tried

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Speaker 1: to trade false information for leniency. But what authorities discovered

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Speaker 1: his trickery. They turned the charges and the tables on him.

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Speaker 1: Manipulating false witness testimonies, hiding or dishing the case history,

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Speaker 1: and using some misleading rology in order to pin the

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Speaker 1: rape and murder on Nick. The biological evidence, as it

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Speaker 1: turned out, that was used to convict him, though, would

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Speaker 1: one day be the same evidence that would set him free. Now.

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Speaker 1: I'm not even going to try to summarize the rest

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Speaker 1: of Nick's story here. It's why we're splitting this episode

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Speaker 1: into two parts, which are both available now. But to

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Speaker 1: compare Nick's story to a roller coaster ride of twists

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Speaker 1: and turns would feel like a compliment to roller coasters,

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Speaker 1: or it would be actually under selling the story of

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Speaker 1: Nick Yaris. As one journalist put it, nick Yaris is

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Speaker 1: living one of the greatest stories ever told. And this

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Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason

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Speaker 1: Flamm that's me today. I have a guest whose name

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Speaker 1: you will remember and whose story you won't forget. First

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Speaker 1: of all, thank you for flying all the way across

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Speaker 1: the country from the Great Northwest. Nick Yarris is here.

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Speaker 2: Nick welcome, Thank you everyone. I really appreciate that.

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Speaker 1: And as I always say, I'm sorry you're here, but

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Speaker 1: I'm happy you're here. So I often feel that each

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Speaker 1: time I meet someone a member of the exonerated community,

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Speaker 1: and I interview them, I feel like I thought I

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Speaker 1: had heard everything, but now I'll just have to reevaluate.

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Speaker 1: But Nick's story is so far off the rails. He's

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Speaker 1: the only guy to start with this. He's the only

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Speaker 1: guy to have escaped from death row and then turned

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Speaker 1: himself in and then ultimately been exonerated. He's the first

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Speaker 1: person in America to ever request his DNA to be

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Speaker 1: tested from death Row, and of course that's what led

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Speaker 1: to his wrongful conviction being overturned. He's got so many

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Speaker 1: unique aspects to his story and his character. I just

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Speaker 1: want to let the interview go. So here we go. Nick.

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Speaker 1: First of all, let's go back to the beginning. Where

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Speaker 1: did you grow up?

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Speaker 2: I was raised in Southwest Philadelphia.

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Speaker 3: My family lived in a small area of the Eastwick

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Speaker 3: section Southwest Philadelphia, and I was in a working class neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: You had a difficult childhood from everything I've read.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the problem with everything was in timing. And

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you're old enough to remember this.

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Speaker 2: I was part of that wave.

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Speaker 3: Of children that came in the sixties, and in nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty eight my entire life changed because not was it

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Speaker 3: related to the assassination of Martin Luther King, but I

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Speaker 3: always equate that because all I remember was that summer

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Speaker 3: was the fires and Camden and all of these upheaval

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Speaker 3: and I wasn't allowed to be friends with Roderick Jones,

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Speaker 3: my buddy from first grade, and that was the summer

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Speaker 3: that I had to deal with after a terrible incident

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Speaker 3: that spring where I was in my neighborhood and as

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Speaker 3: a seven year old boy, I was let out from

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Speaker 3: school to go to a dental appointment and I had

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Speaker 3: my school clothing on when my mother told me as

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Speaker 3: I left the house that day that she really didn't

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Speaker 3: want me to get thirty. But I went running off

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Speaker 3: with my childhood friend, Jocko, who was a medium sized

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Speaker 3: pood on, my best friend in life, and I ended

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Speaker 3: up in a small area behind my neighborhood that was wooded,

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Speaker 3: and as I walked down the path, I didn't notice,

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Speaker 3: but there was a boy there about twenty years old,

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Speaker 3: and I knew.

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Speaker 2: Who he was.

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Speaker 3: He was a very aggressive male. I seen him beat

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Speaker 3: up adults and I was very afraid of him, and

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Speaker 3: he knew that he played upon that. And as I

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Speaker 3: found myself alone with this individual, he commanded my attention

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Speaker 3: and he told me to come to him and come

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Speaker 3: over here, because he wanted me to stand before him,

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Speaker 3: and he had a cigarette in his mouth. I remember

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Speaker 3: distinctly how he took the cigarette from his mouth and

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Speaker 3: he wanted me to take a puff at his cigarette.

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Speaker 3: And when I did, I got all lightheaded from the

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Speaker 3: tobacco entering my lungs. And basically at that moment, that's

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Speaker 3: when he launched the sexual assault upon me. And in

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Speaker 3: frustration and anger, he got all scared and he picked

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Speaker 3: up a fieldstone and he beat my head in with it.

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Speaker 3: I remember only bits and pieces when I came to,

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Speaker 3: and I was terrified. I couldn't find my dog, Jocko.

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Speaker 3: I kept screaming his name over and over, and I

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Speaker 3: knew that I had to go back home. And I

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Speaker 3: remember the warm blood on the front of my head,

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Speaker 3: and I had this huge, huge hematoma across the front,

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Speaker 3: so that it was like a porpoise head man, and

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Speaker 3: I couldn't hardly see. Everything was like those frosted glasses

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Speaker 3: you see when someone's close to a window and everything's

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Speaker 3: all fogged up. And I stumbled home and my mother

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Speaker 3: was there, and she was horrified, and she said Nikki

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Speaker 3: would happen, and It was then that I had to

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Speaker 3: recall for her the lie that he kept telling me

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Speaker 3: while he put his trousers on, that I should tell

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Speaker 3: my parents I fell off a wall and a shopping

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Speaker 3: cart fell on my head. I told the story to

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Speaker 3: my mom, and she didn't care about any of it,

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Speaker 3: and I remember it. I just got rushed to the

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Speaker 3: Willseye Hospital in Philadelphia and they treated me there for

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Speaker 3: the brain swelling, and I was taken home that night.

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Speaker 3: And I remember the only thing that to this day

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Speaker 3: this still sticks out, is that Jocko would leave me

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Speaker 3: alone my dog when I got home, just wouldn't stuck.

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Speaker 1: So the dog could run home, as if to try

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Speaker 1: to get help for you. Is that right?

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Speaker 2: It seemingly was that way to me.

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Speaker 1: That's a horrible, horrible story. It probably I'm going to

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Speaker 1: guess that it had something to do with the fact

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Speaker 1: that you ended up getting caught up with some drugs

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Speaker 1: and alcohol. Anybody probably would having endured such a traumatic situation.

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Speaker 1: And so as a teenager, fast forwarding about a decade,

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Speaker 1: you were involved with some petty crimes. Is that right?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you weren't. You were no angel. Let's just

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Speaker 1: say right.

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Speaker 3: I grew up in a neighborhood where stealing cars was

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Speaker 3: part of the fun. Man like it was culture. You know,

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Speaker 3: the seventies were different. In nineteen seventy eight, seventy nine,

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Speaker 3: as a long haired kid that hung out with his

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Speaker 3: friends and got high, because I found out that as

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Speaker 3: long as I got high, I wasn't afraid. And it

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Speaker 3: was a terrible thing that I didn't respect anything I

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Speaker 3: spoke guttural. I was very silly, and I think what

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Speaker 3: did my head in was I was eighteen years old

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Speaker 3: and I was standing by Cobbs Creek Park and I

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Speaker 3: saw my attacker. It's the first time I seen him

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Speaker 3: alone since I got out of the juvenile correctional system

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Speaker 3: where I learned how to box and everything. Now I'm

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Speaker 3: six to two, I weigh close to two hundred and

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Speaker 3: ten pounds. I've been trained to fight. I'm eighteen years old. Man,

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Speaker 3: I'm not no kid anymore. And I seen him. He's

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Speaker 3: coming from Darby, Pennsylvania, across the creek. He's got a

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Speaker 3: quart of beer in his hands, and he's walking up

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Speaker 3: towards me. Now five foot eight, one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 3: five pounds. Maybe he ain't no big, scary dude.

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Speaker 2: So as he's.

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Speaker 3: Walking towards me, I'm getting angrier and angrier. I'm like man,

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Speaker 3: And then he saw it, he saw the anger in

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Speaker 3: my face, and the strangest thing happened. Man, Instead of

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Speaker 3: showing me this snarling, nasty face that beat my head in,

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Speaker 3: he cowered. He capitulated, and in this very milk toasting,

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Speaker 3: cowardly way, he started to plead with me. Nick Man,

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, man, look, I'm so sorry. I kept looking

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Speaker 3: at him and looking at him, and then I had

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Speaker 3: this horrifying realization. I turned myself into this bitter, nasty

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Speaker 3: person to be just like him. I hated everyone, disrespected everyone,

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Speaker 3: I talked like shit. I was so screwed up in

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Speaker 3: my head from this incident that I stole a car

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Speaker 3: and I ran off to Florida and I did a

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Speaker 3: bunch of drugs and I ended up in the Florida

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Speaker 3: State Mental Institution over this, and for the very first time,

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Speaker 3: I got diagnosed with having a brain injury called a phasia.

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Speaker 3: And the doctor said, what kind of drugs you've been taking?

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Speaker 3: When I ran through the list of them, mainly being methamphetamine,

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Speaker 3: he said, I want to explain something to you. If

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Speaker 3: you had a fire and you had napalm, would you

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Speaker 3: throw the nate palm on the fire to put it out?

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Speaker 3: Because methamphetamine inside your brain is napalm, and you're killing yourself.

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Speaker 3: You can't function, you lose folkous. What you do is

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Speaker 3: just full of mental destruction. He said, the worst drug

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Speaker 3: that you can do in your life is methamphetomye. And

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Speaker 3: I said, but I really don't care about myself. He said,

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Speaker 3: it shows you arrived in a medical condition in the

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Speaker 3: Dade County jail. You weighed one hundred and seventy three pounds,

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Speaker 3: You were malnourished, you were uncommunicated. We had to put

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Speaker 3: you into restraints.

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Speaker 2: They read it all.

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Speaker 3: He said, you have a form of a phasia. You

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Speaker 3: have a brain disorder in which you were brain scans

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Speaker 3: show that you have damage. Have you been in a

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Speaker 3: serious automobile accident, because this is likely to be caused

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Speaker 3: by serious trauma. And I told him, I said no,

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Speaker 3: someone hit me in the head when I was a

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Speaker 3: boy with a rock. And then he tried to explain

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Speaker 3: what a PHASEA was. Get out of the medical institution.

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Speaker 3: They send me back to Pennsylvania and in nineteen eighty one.

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Speaker 3: I was stable for three months. I had a girlfriend

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Speaker 3: named Teresa. I was working at Spencer's Gifts. I wasn't

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Speaker 3: doing meth. Everything was cool. Jay I was like, I understand,

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Speaker 3: I got a brain disorder. I can't do meth. So

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Speaker 3: I tried my best to stay clean. But I'm twenty

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Speaker 3: years old, you know. Then I get to like stressing

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Speaker 3: with my brothers and fighting in the house and causing

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Speaker 3: all kinds of ruckus. And my parents were stressed out

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Speaker 3: because both my brothers were on drugs. So Marty's drinking,

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Speaker 3: Mikey's drinking, I'm drinking. We're fighting in the house, and

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Speaker 3: it's just chaos. Teresa don't really want to be part

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Speaker 3: of that.

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Speaker 2: She steps out.

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Speaker 3: So I go back to stee on cars and doing

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Speaker 3: meth again. On December fourth, nineteen eighty one, two Philadelphia

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Speaker 3: police officers pulled me over and they beat me up

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Speaker 3: and mashed my mouth up with a Beaverdale blackjack. But

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Speaker 3: that didn't stop me. The next week, I went out

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Speaker 3: and stole another car. But this time it's December nineteenth,

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty one, and I'm driving in the city of Chester.

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Speaker 3: It's twelve o'clock one o'clock in the morning and I

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Speaker 3: went through a stop sign. The cop pulls out, and

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Speaker 3: my heart's racing. Man, I'm high on meth. I just

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Speaker 3: took a hell of a beaten two weeks three weeks

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Speaker 3: ago from the police for this same shit.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to do. I just panicked.

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Speaker 3: The next thing I know, this police officer comes up

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Speaker 3: and starts beating on the window. I'm boom, boom, get

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Speaker 3: out of the car. But in my head, I swear

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Speaker 3: to God, I can't make no sense to nothing. My

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Speaker 3: heart's racing. I'm so high on meth I I can't move.

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Speaker 3: I'm panicky. You know that's scared panicky. The dude rips

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Speaker 3: the door open, and when he did, I realized the

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Speaker 3: radio was still blasted. I'm so high on it, even

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Speaker 3: though the radio's on it. He rips me out of

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Speaker 3: the car, pushes me back.

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Speaker 2: Didn't you see me? Why didn't you stop all this?

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Speaker 2: I can't stay.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to talk to him, and that's when he

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Speaker 3: foe armed me. And he took his right forearm and

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Speaker 3: put it under my chin and pushed my neck backwards

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Speaker 3: on the roof of the car so that my head's

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Speaker 3: now being pushed against it and I'm choking, you know,

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Speaker 3: And that was it, Like I snapped, and I pushed

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Speaker 3: his arm away with my left hand and flung it

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Speaker 3: off me, and he grabbed his stick in a flash

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Speaker 3: my right.

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Speaker 2: Hand so fast. I can't explain it.

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Speaker 3: When you're high on methamphetamine and your adrenal glands kick in,

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Speaker 3: the things that happen are just in flashes. I reached

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Speaker 3: out and like a nanosecond just took a stick off him,

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Speaker 3: and he looked at me incredulously and he went whew.

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Speaker 3: And then he reached down with his right hand and

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Speaker 3: pulled his gun out. And when I seen him going

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Speaker 3: for the gun, I reached out with both hands and

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Speaker 3: put my hands on his hand and pushed downwards so

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Speaker 3: that the barrel went away from us, you know.

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Speaker 2: And as I did that was it. Boom, big loud explosion.

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Speaker 3: Man, the gun goes off, and I'm just I can't

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Speaker 3: believe this, Jason. I went from being high in a

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Speaker 3: stolen car driving down the street, thinking about how can

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Speaker 3: I get out of this crazy stuff at my house,

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Speaker 3: and the next thing I know, his cops got his

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Speaker 3: arm on my throat and his gun just went off.

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Speaker 3: So I put my hands up. I said, okay, okay.

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Speaker 3: He put the gun under my chin. He forced me

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Speaker 3: into the car. Then he sat down and he composed

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Speaker 3: himself for a minute, and I watched as like he

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Speaker 3: thought about this. Then he snatched up the microphone from

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Speaker 3: within the car and he starts yelling shots, fire shots, fire, help, help.

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Speaker 3: He's attacking me as if I'm whipping his ass. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I can't even believe that this man is now in

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Speaker 3: front of my face making this up. And then he

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Speaker 3: puts the phone down. He goes, oh, and he could

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Speaker 3: sell the car, and he's waiting and a paddy wagon

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Speaker 3: shows up and there's four.

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Speaker 2: Cops in it.

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Speaker 3: They ripped me out of the backseat of the car.

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Speaker 3: I ain't even in handcuffs. Boom boom, boom, boom boom

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Speaker 3: to the ground, Beat me down, Stop me down. He

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Speaker 3: already told him he had my gun. He tried to

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Speaker 3: kill me. He beat the shit out on me, put

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Speaker 3: me in jail.

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Speaker 1: At that time, you were charged with stealing a car.

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Speaker 3: Right they didn't even know it was stolen. This was

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Speaker 3: a traffic incident. I was originally charged with aggravated assault

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Speaker 3: resisting arrest. Attempted murder on a police officer, possession of

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Speaker 3: a firearm by a convicted felon, and for kidnapping of

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Speaker 3: that police officer.

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Speaker 1: As well as reckless endangerment and robbery. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: a lot. And so this is where things get really nuts.

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Speaker 1: I mean, in case your story wasn't already crazy enough

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Speaker 1: for three podcasts, because it is now, you come up

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Speaker 1: with what must have seemed like at the time a

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Speaker 1: good idea to get yourself out of what is an

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Speaker 1: impossible situation. With all these charges hanging over your head.

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Speaker 1: You're looking at potentially spending the rest of your life

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Speaker 1: in prison. We would have to say that it was

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Speaker 1: your fault you were driving high and that you were

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Speaker 1: in a stolen car, But the rest of it sounds

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Speaker 1: like you were basically trying to save your own life

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Speaker 1: and ended up in a situation that spiraled way out

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Speaker 1: of control. Adrenaline, drugs, all kinds of things. And we

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Speaker 1: know in those days that Philadelphia police were notorious. In fact,

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Speaker 1: they were instructed, even ordered to use extreme violence against suspects.

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Speaker 1: It was the era of Frank Rizzo, who was the.

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Speaker 3: Two weeks before I got arrested by this police officer

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Speaker 3: Rizzo himself. No, it was the police officers that he created,

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Speaker 3: the highway patrol officers, right, the brutal ones you're talking

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Speaker 3: about with the jack boots and the berets.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of a gestapo that used to patrol the

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia area. And of course Rizzo went on to be

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Speaker 1: the mayor. It's really a dark chapter and not only

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania history, but American history. On December fifteenth, nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 1: Linda May Craig, a sales associate the Tri State Mall

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Speaker 1: in Claymont, Delaware, was abducted in her car at the

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Speaker 1: end of her shift and after not arriving home, you know,

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Speaker 1: hours and hours later, her husband called the police and

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Speaker 1: her car was found abandoned on the side of the

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Speaker 1: road in Chichester, Pennsylvania. Her body, of course, tragically, was

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Speaker 1: found the following day, beaten, stabbed, and raped, and she

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Speaker 1: was found in a church parking lot about a mile

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Speaker 1: and a half away from where her car had been found.

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Speaker 1: The police report stated that she bled out from multiple

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Speaker 1: stab wounds to stained to the chest. Really an awful

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Speaker 1: crime and an era when crime was high, this one

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Speaker 1: would even stand out as a particularly vicious brutal assault.

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Speaker 1: So tell us what happened, because you had an idea

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Speaker 1: that would take you into a better spot in terms

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Speaker 1: of your own charges that you were facing. And actually,

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Speaker 1: I think when you came up with, at least on paper,

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Speaker 1: must have seemed like an elegant solution, right.

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Speaker 3: But that's the thing about being waylaid by a lie.

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Speaker 3: From this point on, I bear responsibility. I know what

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Speaker 3: he did to me was wrong, and a jury, yes,

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Speaker 3: only three months later, I would be found not guilty

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Speaker 3: of all the charges by that police officer.

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Speaker 1: Not guilty, Wow, that's right.

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Speaker 3: But before that I was facing life from his lie.

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Speaker 3: So in my desperation, the only thing I had in

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Speaker 3: myself was a newspaper that had the story of Linda

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Speaker 3: May Craig. And I don't know if you've ever been

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Speaker 3: locked in a room with a box of toothpaste, but

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Speaker 3: you'll read the ingredients over and over, man. And that

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00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 3: headline kept bugging me, man. And it all started by happenstance.

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Speaker 3: A guard walked by and he saw me. He said, boy,

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Speaker 3: you don't look right. What's going on. Before that moment,

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00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 3: in my head, I concocted a stupid, stupid story where

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00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 3: I was going to tell the police that I possibly

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Speaker 3: knew some information about this murder, and that hopes of

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Speaker 3: bartering my way out by saying that this guy that

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Speaker 3: had died of a drug overdose did it so that

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Speaker 3: I could get.

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Speaker 2: Out and run.

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Speaker 3: This is the thinking of a twenty year old junkie man,

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Speaker 3: but I still bear responsibility for it my own this. So,

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Speaker 3: this officer standing before my cell says to me, why

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Speaker 3: are you so upset? I said, I need to talk

347
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Speaker 3: to somebody. What if I knew about this murder? And

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Speaker 3: I held up the newspaper and I said, would they

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Speaker 3: let me out? And then he said, what do you know?

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Speaker 3: And I told him my story. Oh my god. As

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Speaker 3: soon as I finished telling my story, he ran off.

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Speaker 3: He went to the sergeant's office and got the sergeant.

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Speaker 3: And then I realized I did it. I had already

354
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Speaker 3: committed to this. I'm stuck now way out there. They

355
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 3: came back. They took me to the warden's office. They

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Speaker 3: took me out of solitary confinement. They bought me a soda,

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Speaker 3: They sat me down. They told me what a wonderful

358
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Speaker 3: citizen I was, what a huge break this was. They

359
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 3: can't believe their luck. This is such a great thing

360
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 3: you're doing. Nick, Look at you. You're not a bad kid.

361
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 3: You were doing some drugs. Let's talk to the police officer.

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00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,439
Speaker 3: Get the officer on the phone. Oh yeah, look, the

363
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,360
Speaker 3: police came, the detectives. They told me all these wonderful things.

364
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Speaker 3: I told my story that this dude in Philly that

365
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Speaker 3: I knew named Jimmy did the murder and that they

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Speaker 3: could just go get him and be all said. They

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00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 3: took me out of solitary confinement. They put me in

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Speaker 3: general population. They told me I had a our hearing

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Speaker 3: in three days.

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Speaker 2: I was going to be released. Jason, I thought this

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Speaker 2: shit was real. Man.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sitting there for three days. And they came

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Speaker 3: back and they said, Jimmy Chris Boys, the man that

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Speaker 3: you accused of telling you that he committed this murder,

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Speaker 3: is not guilty. He has an alibi. He's at work.

376
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Speaker 3: When I heard he was at an alibi, I said, what,

377
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Speaker 3: but he's dead.

378
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 2: They said, what do you mean, he's dead?

379
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Speaker 3: And that's when they knew that I was making up

380
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 3: the story. And it turns out it was his brother Joey,

381
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 3: not Jimmy, that died. The junkie that told me the

382
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 3: story got it wrong, and I based my story on

383
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Speaker 3: a lie, and now the cops are looking at me

384
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Speaker 3: like you came here with a story. So we went

385
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 3: and talked to your girlfriend and she said that you

386
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 3: were a weirdo man, you were acting all weird. So

387
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 3: we just we put two together and I said, what

388
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,640
Speaker 3: do you mean? They said, well we figured it out.

389
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 3: You went out and killed Missus Craig because she looks

390
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Speaker 3: like your girlfriend. You were upset with her and you

391
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 3: wanted to punish a woman. Isn't that why you did it? Nick?

392
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Speaker 3: And I looked at him, like, are you crazy? Why

393
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Speaker 3: would I go out and kill some lady I don't

394
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Speaker 3: even know? And they said, well, we have an inmate

395
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 3: back in the jail. Who's going to say to that

396
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 3: you confessed to the rape and murder of Missus Craig.

397
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Speaker 3: What do you got to say about that?

398
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 2: I said what they.

399
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: Said, Yeah, Charles Michael Catalino said, did you confess to him?

400
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 2: I said, who's this guy?

401
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 3: Charles Michael Cadlino was convicted of robbing William Ryan's house.

402
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 3: William Ryan was the first assistant prosecutor of Delaware County

403
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Speaker 3: who was handling the Linda May.

404
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Speaker 2: Craig murder case.

405
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Speaker 3: Oh Jesus, when I found out that they recruited this

406
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 3: man and instead of giving him twenty years for burglarizing

407
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 3: the prosecutor's home in which he abused the prosecutor's pets,

408
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 3: I knew I was done. They charged me with the

409
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 3: rape and murder of a woman I never even met,

410
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 3: just based on an inmate's so called confession to an inmate.

411
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 3: I'm sitting there now, I'm not only charged with attempted

412
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Speaker 3: murder of a police officer. I'm sitting there charged with

413
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 3: the rape and murder of a woman I never met.

414
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 3: And this is all within weeks of landing in jail.

415
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 3: I went and played my stupid game against a liar,

416
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 3: thinking I could make up a lie, and I made

417
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 3: it so much worse in retrospect.

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Speaker 1: Obviously a crazy idea, but no one can walk a

419
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: mile in your shoes. And I think that you came

420
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 1: up with a plan that at least didn't involve implicating

421
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: a live person. But it is a terrible aspect of

422
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: the story. And of course you know you went from

423
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: being zero to hero and then back to sub zero

424
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 1: after this because of the fact that now they go, well,

425
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Speaker 1: you know what, fuck this guy, and you know we're

426
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: going to now make his life even more of a

427
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: living hell. So let me just go back to the

428
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: crime itself. So, Linda make Craig was murdered before you

429
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,479
Speaker 1: went to prison for this incident with the office.

430
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 3: Yes, she was murdered on December fifteenth. I was arrested

431
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 3: on December nineteenth in the early morning hours in a

432
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 3: stone car in the same city, roughly twenty five miles area,

433
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 3: just outside of Philadelphia.

434
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: Now, going back to the trial, because eventually you go

435
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: to trial, I'm assuming you had a public defender.

436
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 3: No, I had private counsel come in. Samuel Stretton agreed

437
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 3: to represent me for the fifteen hundred dollars inheritance I

438
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 3: got from my grandfather, So he represented me on the

439
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 3: first trial in April nineteen eighty two, in which the

440
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 3: only two witnesses were me and Officer Benjamin Wright. Officer

441
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 3: Benjamin Wright testified about the incident that I described, and

442
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 3: he told the court that I jumped out of the

443
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 3: car before he had a chance to respond, ran back

444
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 3: to his vehicle, punched him, Vishes took his gun off

445
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 3: of him, hit him across his face with it, and

446
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 3: then proceeded to drag him back to my car when

447
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 3: he overpowered me and the gun discharged inches from our faces.

448
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 2: Meanings.

449
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 3: He heroically overpowered me while I had the gun pointed

450
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 3: at his eyes, he said, And although there was no

451
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 3: powder burns on his face and he had very minimum scarring,

452
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 3: the jury took my word over his and found me

453
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 3: not guilty of all charges after only twenty minutes of deliberation.

454
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: So they found you not guilty after only twenty minutes.

455
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: That's a remarkable result when you have a guy who's

456
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 1: a convicted felon and it's your word against the off

457
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: the word of an officer of the law, it shows

458
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: that the case was really a you know, and credit

459
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: to the jury. By the way, and anyone who's listening.

460
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: If you don't think it's important that you show up

461
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: and serve on a jury, you just heard next voice,

462
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: you may be in a position to save somebody else's life,

463
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: So please do show up. You know, if you're listening

464
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: to this show, you know what's going on, so it's

465
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: it's extra important that you be there. One vote can

466
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: save somebody's life. Don't forget that it's a very important

467
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: thing to remember. They will necessarily tell you. In certain states,

468
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: they don't tell you that some people go and change

469
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: their vote because they think unless they can sway everybody

470
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: to their side. But no, you need one vote, and.

471
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 2: You stop as good as no result.

472
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: You can stop a terrible miscarriage of justice from happening

473
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: to an innocent person, and so please do show up.

474
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: So now let's get to the trial of your life

475
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: and for your life in a very real way, right

476
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: because you end up with the death penalty.

477
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: Three day trial, what a joke.

478
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: A three day trial, and the prosecution relied on a

479
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: number of things that don't make any damn sense. The

480
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: jail house informant, who we know is getting a deal

481
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: biological materials that couldn't have implicated you because you never metter.

482
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 1: And we know now, of course that those biological materials

483
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: actually ended up exculpating you and leading to your conviction

484
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: being thrown out, overturned, and you're eventually being declared actually innocent.

485
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: Can you explain that discrepancy?

486
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty two, zerology was at the forefront blood

487
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 3: grouping and such like this. So when spermatozoa or other

488
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 3: biological evidence was left at a crime scene. The furthest

489
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 3: that we could go in science was blood grouping. The

490
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 3: killer had be positive blood, so do I.

491
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: And of course there was also the testimony of a

492
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: co worker, and I'm confused about this one, Natalie Barr

493
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: and a salesperson from nearby booth named Franklin Kaminski. These

494
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: people testified that you had been lingering around Missus Craig's

495
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: sales booth. The prosecution also introduced evidence that Missus Craig

496
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: bore a significant resemblance to your former girlfriend. You brought

497
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: this up before a relationship that had ended, you.

498
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 3: Know, okay to answer to both of these, The composite

499
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 3: sketch that was made by Frank Kaminsky in nineteen eighty

500
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 3: one described a white male five foot seven to one

501
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 3: hundred and forty pounds, that is in the description on

502
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: his sketch. The band that they described had long black

503
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 3: or brown hair. It only changed because Natalie Barr began

504
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 3: having personal interactions as they described it later on when

505
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 3: I went through the lawsuit stage against Pennsylvania. She was

506
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 3: the main witness. Natalie Marie Barr, I guess had a

507
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: fixation with police officers and Detective Randy Martin, the lead

508
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 3: detective who handled the matter, had very continuous personal interactions

509
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 3: with her that led to her coming forward and saying

510
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 3: that she saw me at the mall. Now, of course

511
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 3: the DNA testing all proves this a lie, but this

512
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 3: is what I had to deal with at the time.

513
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: So Natalie Barr was actually part of your lawsuit.

514
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 3: Yes, when I filed a lawsuit against Pennsylvania with the

515
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 3: help of Jack Beaver Esquire, she was the main witness

516
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 3: who came forward through the help of my investigator and

517
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 3: explained that she in fact had a personal relationship with

518
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: Detective Martin and that she basically had too much information

519
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 3: given to her by him and she felt obligated to

520
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 3: make up a story saying that she saw me at

521
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 3: the mall. The horror of it all really is that

522
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: at the time that I went to prison, everybody was

523
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: convinced that I did it. So the jury took only

524
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: an hour to sentence me to die because I refused

525
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 3: to admit my guilt. After they convicted me, I told

526
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: them that I didn't want my mother to testify, and

527
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 3: I watched as my neighbors and people from my neighborhood

528
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 3: made sizzling noises because I was sentenced to the electric chair.

529
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: And when his honor, Robert F. Kelly sentenced me to die,

530
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 3: he couldn't look me in the face. The whole time

531
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: he read off the perfunctory duties of his job. He

532
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 3: had his head down like he was ashamed. So the

533
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 3: man sentenced me to death without having the courage to

534
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 3: look me in the eyes. And when he raised his

535
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: head and said if you have anything to add I said, yeah,

536
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 3: you can go to hell because you just sentenced me

537
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 3: to death without having the courage to look me in

538
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: the face.

539
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: Why can't you look at me?

540
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: But all he put in the newspaper was defiant death

541
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 3: row prisoner tells judge to go to hell. So they

542
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 3: sent me to hell. They sent me to Huntington Prison,

543
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: the hardest prison in Pennsylvania, the only prison ever condemned

544
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 3: by the United Nations for its active practices of torture.

545
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 3: And they put me through hell man, and I've spent

546
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 3: the first two years in complete silence. I sang Happy

547
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 3: Birthday to myself on my twenty second birthday, and four

548
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 3: guards ran into my cell and the nurse stabbed me

549
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: in the asked with Thorsen, that's some fucked up shit, man,

550
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: where you can't even sing Happy Birthday to yourself. They'll

551
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 3: beat your head in.

552
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 2: Man.

553
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 3: I'm like, how am I going to survive this shit?

554
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 3: Then I meet my new lawyer and he tells me

555
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 3: I'm guilty. I'm wasting his time. Don't bother trying to

556
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 3: convince him of this. So at first I was a

557
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 3: bitter pill man. You would have opened my cell out

558
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 3: to beat your face and I didn't care who you were.

559
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 3: And I'm in the mirror with all these killers, and

560
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 3: I gotta be worse than them because I got to

561
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 3: keep them off me. This is crazy, man. I'm in

562
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 3: the early stages. Everything was chaos, man. And in nineteen

563
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: eighty three the drugs in America made the prison swell

564
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: from one million to two million. So I was in

565
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 3: a prison with eight hundred people that went to two

566
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: thousand prisoners. Man, and the guards just had fun with

567
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 3: this man. The first dude that killed himself, I thought

568
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 3: it was a mattress that somebody threw off the tier.

569
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 3: He couldn't take.

570
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 2: It no more.

571
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 3: They kept torturing them, torturing them, torturing them, throwing pork

572
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: in his cell, calling him nigger. He just couldn't take

573
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 3: it no more. When I heard the body hit, because

574
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 3: I lived on the bottom tier and he was forty

575
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: feet up on the top, I thought they had cleaned

576
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 3: the sellout and they threw a mattress away.

577
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 2: So I got up and looked out. His feet were twitching.

578
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: I went back over and I said, I don't give

579
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 3: a damn what I gotta do. I'm getting out of here, man.

580
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 3: And then the torture started. They used to make us

581
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 3: have gladiator days on Sundays when the lieutenant wasn't on

582
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: the block. Man early on, Jason, I had to fight men.

583
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: Geeze.

584
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 3: They were beast man like. I had no choice. And

585
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 3: these dudes were being tortured, and a lot of it

586
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 3: was just because they were Muslims and they rioted in

587
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 3: Greater Ford Prison in Pennsylvania.

588
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: They were marked.

589
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 3: They had a axe on him, and because I was

590
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 3: a good sized kid, they decided that I.

591
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: Was going to be her avenging angel and shit like that.

592
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 2: It was sick.

593
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: Man.

594
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 3: I decided that I wasn't going to give up my humanity.

595
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 3: I decided that I wasn't going to do this.

596
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 2: But I didn't know.

597
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 3: How some I'm walking past his cell where the guy

598
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 3: killed himself, and the guard says to me, you go

599
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 3: in that cell. You get them books. You start reading

600
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,959
Speaker 3: them books. It will stop you from being mad.

601
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: What books were they?

602
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 2: I went into the corner.

603
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 3: Out of them word this urine, the stand of water,

604
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 3: standing damage, and shit.

605
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: And I picked up.

606
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 3: Nineteen seventy Webster's Dictionary paperback missing cover, a nineteen thirty

607
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 3: three Tabler's Medical Encyclopedic, a nineteen eighties ged booklet with

608
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 3: all the training courses, The Count of Monte Cristo and

609
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 3: the Prophet by Khalil Lebron. And I didn't even know

610
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 3: any of these books. It took me three years, but

611
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 3: I took the dictionary part. I was well on my

612
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 3: way to working really hard to educating myself when my

613
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 3: court appointed lawyer filed my mandatory appeal and the State

614
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 3: Supreme Court remanded my case back for all of the

615
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 3: destruction of evidence from my case because, like I described,

616
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 3: when Frank Kaminski made a composite sketch, all of the

617
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 3: related files in a file called eighty one ten seventy

618
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 3: three were missing. Of the first thirty three pages of

619
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 3: the initial homicide file, seventeen pages were missing, and of

620
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 3: the remaining thirty three pages that many of them were

621
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 3: redacted with black markings. The prosecutor deliberately went out of

622
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,240
Speaker 3: their way to remove all evidence of any suspect prior

623
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 3: to my becoming a suspect while in prison, meaning any

624
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: investigative notes and everything was taken out of there. The

625
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 3: notes related to the killer leaving the gloves in the

626
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 3: car because they knew my hands were swollen and large

627
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 3: that I wouldn't fit. The killer's gloves were also hidden.

628
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 3: So I'm on my way to court in nineteen eighty five,

629
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 3: I'm so on pins and needles that I got a

630
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 3: reman from the State Supreme Court with a clear mandate

631
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 3: to answer the questions related to the destruction of evidence

632
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 3: from pre trial files prior to trial, so that I

633
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 3: could show exculpatory evidence. The prosecutor is up Ship's Creek.

634
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 3: They're going to have to produce all this evidence that

635
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 3: they said didn't even exist. So I get in the car.

636
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 3: I'm driving to Philly. I'm going down there to court.

637
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 3: Huntington Prison is two hundred and twenty five miles away

638
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 3: from the courthouse.

639
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 2: I was to attend.

640
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 3: So we had a five hour journey of driving down

641
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 3: from Huntington Prison in the Central Mountains of Pennsylvania all

642
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 3: the way down to the Philadelphia area. It was about

643
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 3: four and a half hours into the journey when the

644
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 3: officers decided that we would have to take a break

645
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 3: at either a rest stop or a gas station so

646
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: that we could all relieve ourselves. And we stop in

647
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 3: a hest station. It's February fifteenth, nineteen eighty five. I'm

648
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 3: twenty four years old. I just spent three and a

649
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 3: half years in one of the hardest prisons in the world,

650
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: and I'm telling you I'm ready to go home. I'm

651
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 3: tired of this. I didn't kill nobody. I know it's

652
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,959
Speaker 3: all been a mistake, and I'm ready to go home.

653
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 3: I want to see my parents in court. Everything I

654
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 3: was talking to the sheriffs, David bo said, I was

655
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 3: very congenial and nice. We'd go to use the restroom.

656
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 3: The taller of the two officers holds the cubicle door

657
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 3: for me. The cubicle was away from the pumps. I

658
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 3: used the restroom. The officers standing there by the door

659
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 3: listen to me urinate testified at my escape trial. Later,

660
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 3: he heard a man peeing and he had a bladder

661
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 3: the size of a pee, and he's almost seventy years old,

662
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 3: and he had to go to the toilet. He decided

663
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 3: to break protocol. He decided to let me run back

664
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 3: to the car on my own so he could run

665
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 3: into the toilet and take a WII. That's what unraveled everything.

666
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 3: It's now dark, it's five point thirty pm. It's winter.

667
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 3: I'm running back to that car. My eyeglasses are fogged

668
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 3: up from being in the toilet. You notice, when you're

669
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 3: warm in the car, you go out in the cold,

670
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 3: go into a room. Was the first thing happened.

671
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 1: Jay, I wear glasses too.

672
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what happened.

673
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 3: So when I come out of the bathroom, I got

674
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 3: that fog and I'm running towards this silhouette. I got

675
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 3: handcuffs on. I'm coming to you, man. I'm freezing. I

676
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 3: got a prison shirt on, prison trousers.

677
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 2: And that's it. Man, it's the coldest. Look it up.

678
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 3: February fifteenth, nineteen eighty five, the coldest night of the year.

679
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,479
Speaker 3: No way was I thinking anything but getting that car.

680
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 3: Man and he pulls his gun out I'm like, whoa.

681
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 3: I throw my like, what are you doing?

682
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: Boom?

683
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 3: First shot, no warning, nothing. He testified that he thought

684
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 3: he overpowered his partner. Man he tried to blow my

685
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 3: brains out. So I did a pirouette. I run, and

686
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 3: because I'm handcuffed, I can't get my legs to work right.

687
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 3: I become a kimboed with my legs and I go down.

688
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 3: Hard man ripped all the skin off my hands, and

689
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 3: it just sent this panic through me. When he fired

690
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 3: the second shot, boom, That's when I started running to

691
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 3: the Ponderosa restaurant windows. I figure, if he's gonna take shots,

692
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 3: he's gonna have to hit one of these people. So

693
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 3: I'm like running like I'm gonna jump through the plate

694
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 3: glass window. And then I did that thing, you know,

695
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: that Philly move where you run around the corner. So

696
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 3: I ran down to the intersection about one hundred yards.

697
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 3: I ran another hundred yards to my right. I ran

698
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 3: another one hundred yards to my right from there, and

699
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: I was right back behind the cop car, right back

700
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 3: where the car was where I just got out of

701
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 3: and I'm in the woods and I'm looking at him,

702
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden, I just start throwing

703
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 3: up and throwing up. I can't believe, like there's no

704
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 3: mental process available to a human being to put perspective

705
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 3: on any of this. I stopped to take a piss.

706
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 3: The guy blows my head off. Almost I'm paranoid as

707
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 3: it is. I'm looking forward to going home. I don't

708
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 3: want to run.

709
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: I'm like, what do I do?

710
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,959
Speaker 3: And I'm standing there panicking. I'm like, man, I gotta

711
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 3: do something. And I look and there's a flag and

712
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 3: it's a municipal building and it's a police station. I'm like, yeah,

713
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go hide behind the police station. Fuck this,

714
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 3: I'm not doing this, man.

715
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: So I went and.

716
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 3: Hid behind there for about thirty minutes, forty minutes until

717
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 3: I lost my core temperature and I come bolting out

718
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: of there, and somebody in the building saw me.

719
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 2: Man, that was it. Here comes to a cop. Oh

720
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 2: my god, choppers.

721
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 3: ATVs over two hundred police officers in the woods of Chester, Pennsylvania.

722
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 3: I'm running, and I mean, I don't care if it's

723
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 3: a tree branch or a brick wall.

724
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: In this kind of.

725
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 3: State, you just grab your glasses off your face and

726
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 3: you run. Oh my god, I got knocked down. I

727
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 3: didn't care. I jumped up.

728
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 2: I ran.

729
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 3: Helicopter comes out. He's by this apartment complex and the

730
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 3: blades are so close to my head. He's almost whipping

731
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: me with him. The snow's blowing up in my face.

732
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 3: Everything's covered in ice. Man, and this helicopter's on me.

733
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 3: I go behind this tractor trailer. I come out underneath it.

734
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,280
Speaker 3: I roll back under he comes around it. The search

735
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 3: light's on me, like you would believe. He's got me

736
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 3: lit up. I go down over this fence and I

737
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 3: roll down in embankment and cross the highway. But he

738
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 3: still thinks I'm in the parking lot, and he swings

739
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 3: back that way and I get away from him. I

740
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 3: break across this big parking lot for him, and I

741
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 3: end up by this pizza shop. And then I go

742
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 3: down another embankment and then someone sees me back there.

743
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: And calls the helicopter back on me. Bam, he's on

744
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 2: me again. This dude was on me, like you'll believe.

745
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 3: Man. The only reason I got away from that way

746
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 3: because I went into a corner of a building and

747
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 3: people came out the other side, and he thought that

748
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 3: was me, and I buckled back around and went back

749
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 3: down these train tracks. I walked for five miles to Fraser,

750
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 3: Pennsylvania and broken feet. I found the nineteen sixty five

751
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 3: Ford Mustang in the parking lot.

752
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 2: I hot wired it and I drove here to New

753
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:37,439
Speaker 2: York City.

754
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: What about the handcuffs.

755
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 2: I took them off with my eyeglasses.

756
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 3: See the same circumference of the pinhole of a pair

757
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 3: of handcuffs. If you keep putting a human being in handcuffs,

758
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 3: he's going to figure them out. Well. I knew from

759
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,399
Speaker 3: experience that if I take the arm off of my eyeglasses,

760
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: I can bend it and it's the same circumference as

761
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 3: the pin hole. You turn it once left to take

762
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 3: off the double lock, and then turn it once right.

763
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 3: You can take your handcuffs off. So while I laid

764
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 3: there after I finished throwing up in the woods, I

765
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 3: took the handcuffs off and put them in my pocket.

766
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 3: I left them in a Bennett.

767
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 2: LaGuardia airport three days later.

768
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, I.

769
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 3: Left my handcuffs here in New York City, and the

770
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 3: transit authority found them. The FBI was on me here

771
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 3: in New York City. Man, I bet they were the

772
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 3: found my car in Washington Square two days after the escape,

773
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 3: February seventeenth, And that's when I was walking past Macy's

774
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 3: and I saw all those display windows with the TVs

775
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 3: with my mom's image on it. Man, oh man, they

776
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 3: didn't have my image up until a few seconds later,

777
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 3: I bet, but as soon as I saw my mom

778
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 3: on five hundred televisions because Macy's had all them electronics,

779
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 3: remember back in the day, Yes, crazy Eddy man.

780
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: So there was a mom on TV like saying, I

781
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: want my son to come along outside the house.

782
00:43:58,360 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: I will never forget.

783
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 3: WPVA, channeled six in Philadelphia was outside my parents' house

784
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 3: and the reporter was out there harassing my mom. I'm thinking,

785
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 3: oh my god, I'm on the FBI's most Wonderless because

786
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 3: that's what came up next.

787
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: Of course you were what did you do about the clothes?

788
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: Because what happened in the prison clothes?

789
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 3: Oh well, see I stopped in Philadelphia but before I left,

790
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 3: and a family member gave me some money and some

791
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,439
Speaker 3: clothes and some bandages, and I drove to New York.

792
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 3: After I dropped the prison clothes in a swamp of

793
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 3: New Jersey along the highway. So I had a pair

794
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 3: of thirty six trousers on.

795
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 2: I where thirty four is there? A bag of shit.

796
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 3: I had a pair of work boots on because my

797
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 3: feet split open in the prison shoes, and I had

798
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 3: socks all woven into my feet. So a Puerto Rican

799
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 3: girl helped me. I was in the Bowery. I paid

800
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 3: seven dollars a night for one of the rooms in

801
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 3: the old Bowery, the flophouses third Yeah, that's right right

802
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 3: in little Italy, down by Mott Street.

803
00:44:58,560 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 2: Yeah.

804
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 3: And I was down there and a girl went out

805
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 3: and got me a loaf of bread and it's baloney.

806
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 2: And I sat in the room just terrified. What do

807
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 2: I do? What do I do?

808
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 3: And I ended up going to Florida from here Orlando

809
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 3: by flight, and I thought I was going to do

810
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,399
Speaker 3: that Miami vice stupid thing, Go rob me a drug

811
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 3: dealer and get a bunch of money and go to

812
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 3: Surinam and haha, I got away, you know.

813
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:24,479
Speaker 2: But it was too hard, Jay.

814
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 3: I couldn't find a birth certificate to get a driver's license,

815
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,240
Speaker 3: to get a passport to get out of the country.

816
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: And I wasn't as smart as I thought I was,

817
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 3: even though I had already started educating myself. So I

818
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,959
Speaker 3: was sitting in Fort Laudadale, across from an Army Navy store,

819
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 3: and I decided to buy a rubber raft, a big

820
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 3: yellow one. I was going to get a cool full

821
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 3: of food, and I was going to go out in

822
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 3: the ocean into the shipping lanes and I was going

823
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 3: to have one blowout party. Then I was going to

824
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 3: cut my wrists and wait for the sharks to surround

825
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 3: the little raft, and I was going to stab the

826
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 3: raft and blow my brains out, never again in handcuffs.

827
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 2: Man. That's why I told myself. Thought about my mom on.

828
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 3: A TV, and I realized, I have a brother who's

829
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 3: only sixteen months older than me. He's gonna have to

830
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 3: pay for this man. He worked for the Philadelphia Police

831
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 3: as a hoster for their horses, and when I was

832
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 3: on escape, they fired him, say it was too much

833
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 3: controversy for a man to work for the Philadelphia Police

834
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 3: and take care of their horses.

835
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 2: It broke my brother's heart.

836
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 3: So I manned up. I knew the beating that was

837
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 3: waiting on me. I knew the torture that was waiting

838
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 3: on me, and I turned myself in and I went

839
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 3: back to Pennsylvania, and I faced the music because I

840
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 3: told a lie of missus Craig.

841
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 2: Jason that's never stopped bothering me.

842
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 3: Man. I told a lie to get out of a

843
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:46,439
Speaker 3: cops line.

844
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: But that's only half the story.

845
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 3: I told a lie about a woman's murder man and

846
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 3: shamed her family, disrespected mine. I got to live with

847
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 3: that man.

848
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: So nick Yarris and now survive Gladiator Sundays, torturous guards, shotguns,

849
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: dogs and helicopter blades whipping at his face on an

850
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: accidental escape from Death Row all the way from Philly

851
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: to New York to Florida, only to shrug off suicide

852
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: to return to death Row. There's so much more in

853
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: store for part two, so start it now or save

854
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: it for later. But either way, thank you for listening

855
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: to part one of nick Yarris un Wrongful Conviction. Don't

856
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 1: forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get

857
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud donor

858
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: to the Ennosis Project, and I really hope you'll join

859
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: me in supporting this very important cause and helping to

860
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innescenceproject dot org. To

861
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to

862
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The

863
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 1: music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated

864
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to findollow us on Instagram

865
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: at Brown and Ful Conviction and on Facebook at Brown

866
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: and Ful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is

867
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with

868
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one