WEBVTT - Evan Rachel Wood on Surviving Her Abusive Relationship with Marilyn Manson 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:05.080 While promoting her groundbreaking role and HBO's smash hit Westworld, 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:10.080 actress Evan rachel Wood revealed a painful truth about her past. 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:13.360 She had been raped and physically abused by a former 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.120 intimate partner while they were together. After years of speculation 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.880 about the identity of her alleged perpetrator, Evan revealed that 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:26.799 it was Brian Warner, famously known as controversial rocker Marilyn Manson. 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:32.839 Evan was just eighteen when they began dating, he was 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:39.600 thirty seven. Throughout their tumultuous relationship, Evan says she was tortured, threatened, 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.360 and terrified for her life. She's testified to Congress and 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:49.240 played a key role in changing California law. She championed 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:53.400 the Phoenix Act, which extends the statute of limitations for 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:59.560 domestic violent survivors. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, Evan 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:03.400 shared how she escaped her alleged abuser, the actress who 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:06.399 encouraged her to open up for the first time, and 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.679 how she's found healing. This podcast should not be used 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:14.840 as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:19.360 are advised to seek independent medical advice counseling and or 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:24.520 therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:30.120 mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:36.080 this podcast. This episode discusses abuse and suicide, which may 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:40.319 be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:44.560 are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:47.720 in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:53.760 Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Evan, I 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:56.680 can't thank you enough for coming in and talking with me, 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:00.560 as your perspective as a survivor is remard arkable in 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:04.280 and of itself, but you also use your platform to 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.560 change laws, and that is such an important part of 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:11.160 your story and for us to learn from your journey 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.080 of survivorship. To me, that's the focus of the story. 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:16.600 So to that end, I want to hear from you, 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:19.080 and you can start talking about what's happened to you 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:20.760 anywhere you want to begin. 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:25.400 I almost want to start after the abuse and my 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:31.239 experience with narcissism in the aftermath, because I remember going 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.320 through a lot of that thinking we don't talk about 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.080 this enough, we don't talk about how this feels. You know, 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:39.680 when you hear those things like why didn't you say 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.239 anything sooner? Or why didn't you respond this way? Or 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.160 why didn't you do that? Or why didn't you do this? 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.040 It just suddenly becomes so clear when you've said in 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.800 that space, why it just took me so many years 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.320 to feel like I was capable enough, for strong enough, 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.680 or clear enough about what had happened to me to 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.400 be able to face what I knew I was going 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.160 to be up against. I started speaking about my sexual 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:06.120 assault sort of right before the big Internet Me Too 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:10.160 hashtag movement happened. And around that time, my nervous system 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.080 and my stress and the weight of it all became 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:14.760 so intense that I started a seizure. 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.359 I started having stress seizures. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:21.440 And when I realized just what a physical impact this 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:25.320 was having on me, and it was making it nearly 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.120 impossible to just move about my life normally and comfortably 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.960 and safely, that was such a breaking point for me. 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:33.680 That's when I just knew that I wasn't going to 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.360 be able to stay quiet. I realized that my silence 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.080 was keeping me really sick. 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.040 I always believe that we always should lose names in 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.800 terms that survivors are comfortable with how do you refer 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:46.560 to this person. 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:51.120 I refer to him as Brian. He is the one 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.640 that created the name Marilyn Manson, and he was the 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:54.040 one that. 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.320 Told us all to call him Manson. 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:58.800 But to me, that kind of feels like a cult 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.600 leader asking you to call them pop up or vanguards, 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.480 like this title that he's giving himself to fit whatever 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.200 image he has of himself, And I didn't want to 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:10.240 give him that power anymore, and so I just use 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:11.120 his real name, Brian. 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:12.640 Okay, So I want to go back to a couple 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:14.840 of things you said. Is that there's a way we 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:19.200 think a survivor is supposed to respond when you think 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:20.880 of it that way, I think it would be useful 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.760 for people to hear what a trope that thing is, 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.120 what was in your mind sort of how one is 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.640 supposed to respond when they're a survivor of sexual assault 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:32.640 or any form of trauma. 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:36.599 There's this idea that something bad happens to you, you 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.400 know it's bad, you immediately react, and you immediately respond 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:42.960 or defend yourself, and it's just cut and dry, black 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:43.440 and white. 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:45.000 This is good, this is bad. 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.160 And if something feels bad, then you should say something 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:47.680 or something. 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:51.920 But it just completely erases so much of. 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.800 The human experience and of the psychological manipulation and torment 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:58.039 that you go through, especially when you're dealing with a narcissism, 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.840 especially when it's an intimate partner, and there's so many 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.360 other dynamics coming into play. I was faced with a 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.400 lot of the narcissistic abuse I suffered. I was a teenager. 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.320 I was so ill equipped. My brain wasn't even really 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:13.839 done for me. It wasn't I was just speaking to 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:15.719 somebody the other day and they said, well, surely you 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:17.560 know when you're raped and you go to the police, 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:19.560 something happens and they come after the person, and I 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:20.919 had to stop them and just say. 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:22.720 Whoa, whoa. 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.480 There's a million other steps, yeah, that come into play 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.080 here before this happens. But people had this idea that 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:30.880 people just come and take the bad guy away if 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.680 somebody did something bad. And when I say things like 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.400 the system is corrupt, that means the laws. That means 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.200 the courts, that means lawyers, that means law enforcement. A 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.200 lot of times, as a survivor of there's there's no 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:43.680 easy way out if a. 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:48.479 Person doesn't say something evan, especially in proximity to the 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.280 thing that happened. The belief is, well, maybe it wasn't 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.719 that bad, because they're not for bad things something right, 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.720 I would have said something right away, right. So that's 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.400 a complete disregard of everything we know about trauma systems 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.520 in the brain and in the body and how healing works. 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:09.000 Then you add the historical context that most survivors of 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:12.800 rape and sexual assault are not believed, and that not 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:17.920 believing gets magnified under a whole host of circumstances. Were 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:21.560 you drinking, did you go there voluntarily, the race of 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.560 the person making the report, the social class of the 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:28.840 person making the report, All of those things undercut the 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:32.599 likelihood that this will ever be taken seriously, which is 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.440 a retraumatization which will put a person back even further. 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:43.240 And so the entire system is conspired against anybody feeling 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.600 that they could safely make a report. And so there 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.800 was a process for you before you were able to 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:51.839 come out and speak. And I think people need to 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.360 understand it wasn't that something terrible happened on a Wednesday, 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.640 and by the following Wednesday or the day after you 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.919 spoke up, because when when you first spoke out you 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:06.320 did not even name your perpetrator. I simply said this happened, 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:12.320 so starting the story there that I finally spoke out. Okay, 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:14.160 so then what. 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.840 Or just like finally getting out and at first just 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.480 wanting to the first step was finally made it out. 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:23.840 I convinced him that it was his idea to let 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.320 me go, because that's essentially what I felt like I 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:26.760 had to do. 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:28.160 I really had to study. 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:34.080 Him for years and understand his gaslighting and manipulation, and 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:36.160 I just knew that I was never going to get 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:38.520 out if I was pulling away. 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.480 From him, or if it was my choice to escape, 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:42.600 I had to. 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:48.600 Somehow play dead and give him something that was undesirable 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.960 to make him feel like it was his idea to 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:52.360 let me go? 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:54.120 How did you do that? There was a. 0:07:54.120 --> 0:08:00.480 Moment when I felt like, I'm so afraid of this person. 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.600 I've been threatened so many times, either with blackmail or 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:10.400 with force, and if I stay here because I'm too 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:14.280 scared to leave, I feel like I'm dead anyway. I 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.720 don't feel like a human, don't I feel like a 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:20.240 shell of a person, and staying kind of felt like 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:24.520 a death sentence. Leaving also felt terrifying because something could 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:27.400 happen to me or he could come after me, and 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:31.600 so I kind of felt like, well, either way, I 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:32.760 feel dead, so. 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:38.120 I may as well try to escape. I'd rather die 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:38.920 trying to get out. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.760 Then I remember realizing that a lot of what he 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.200 fed off of was my fear that he was going 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.520 to do something like that was the power that he 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:48.240 had over me. 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:49.880 I could embarrass you. 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.160 I've got information on you, I've got photos of you, 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.120 I've got you doing things that would humiliate you. 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.760 When that finally clicked, I released any. 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.800 Of trying to have any control over the situation and 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:04.960 just kind of surrendered to what the situation want to. 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:06.600 Just look, if you stay, you're dead, If you leave, 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:07.040 you're dead. 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:12.640 So I didn't really fight back. I didn't really react 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:14.480 or seem hurt. I kind of just went. I think 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:15.640 they call it going gray rock. 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:17.880 Okay, So I want to break that down. Yeah, gray 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:22.240 rocking is that process where I mean you render yourself 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.160 to be a gray rock, as dull, as non responsive, 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:30.160 as unnoticeable. So when you're not responding either with fear 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:32.760 or trying to appease them or trying to get into 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.000 it with them, or explain yourself. The goal is that 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.080 they would get disinterested and move on to new supply. 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:42.520 Gray Rock's a tricky strategy because in many cases, what 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.679 it can do is it leaves the narcissistic person unsupplied 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.760 and they get more agitated, and their power over you 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:53.360 is to get these strong, emotional, almost erratic reactions out 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.319 of the person they're targeting. This is now psychological right, 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:58.600 they will get more frothed up. Okay, you think you're 0:09:58.600 --> 0:09:59.960 going to play this game, I am going to sh 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.880 share those pictures with the world they did see, which 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.280 they do. And so what happens is if you can 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:08.880 tolerate the menace and you can come around the other 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.200 side of the bend, they will ultimately get bored because 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.040 now it's just sort of they're exhausting themselves in the 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:16.760 process of trying to break some and they could just 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.440 move on to new supply. But a lot of people 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:24.040 cannot weather that sort of gray rock agitation, as I 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.480 call it. But in your case, you did gray rock, 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:28.560 And how did that get you to the place though 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:32.640 where it felt like his idea that this was no 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:33.880 longer working. 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.280 Well, exactly what you just described, I wasn't trying to 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.679 defend myself. I wasn't trying to talk them off the ledge. 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:41.600 I wasn't doing all the things that I normally did. 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:43.040 And one thing. 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:45.600 He was doing with me as well is that reactive 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.320 abuse where he would sort of push me to the 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:52.960 point of breakdown, where I'd either be having a panic attack, 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.160 I'd be shaking, I'd be screaming, I'd want to reach 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.160 out for help, and then he would tell people something 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.360 else was happening, like anybody, like in his inner circles. 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:04.320 One time he told somebody that I slipped my rest 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.600 to get his attention, or oh that I cheated on him, 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:09.640 or like he just kept telling people all these things 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.800 had happened that weren't happening to set me up. 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:15.000 If I ever did reach out for help, if I 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:15.680 ever did try. 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.520 To explain to people what was happening, they've already heard 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.600 a completely different story, Like he's already gotten ahead of it. 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:23.880 Made this mistake with a couple of narcissists in my 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.680 life before I knew they were narcissists. Of if I 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.719 could just show this person how much pain I'm in, 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.520 they'll stop because I'm dying. 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.080 I'm collapsed on the floor. I'm in a pool of tears. 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.600 I'm pulling my hair and I'm screaming, I'm cutting myself. 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.960 I'm clearly in pain, and of course they'll stop, and 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:43.760 they never do. 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:46.360 They use it to their advantage even more. 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:48.880 But when there's no empathy, all the rules are out 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.959 the window, right. See, that's the piece what you described 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.120 is I would show them my pain. I would fall 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:57.880 to the ground in my pain, in the expectations, not. 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.239 In a performative note, in a genuine joy. 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:04.600 And yes you're devastated. What happens is that when a 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:09.280 person goes through any form of narcissistic or psychopathic or 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:13.080 antagonistic relationship where there's so much in validation, there's so 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:17.520 little empathy, you're not having that fall to the ground 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:22.760 panicked distress response the first time. This is after hundreds 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.960 of times of being exposed to this. Right, it's relentless, 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.679 and so there's a point at which it's unendurable, and 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.800 that you think that within this person, I saw it 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:33.839 for a minute at the beginning. I know it's there. 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.520 Maybe they're not seeing how much pain I'm in, and 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.000 they will see how much pain I'm in. Maybe they're 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:41.719 not fully getting it. Maybe they just think this is 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:46.479 an exchange. It's really complete and utter exhaustion and breakdown. 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:48.000 That's just game on. 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.520 For them exactly. That's what I learned through trial and error. 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.560 Yes, that Eavan is the norm. I think it's so 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.480 important you laid this dynamic out because that's every survivor's 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.440 sort of mantle they wear. Maybe I'm not being clear, 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:03.480 and if I was clear, they'd get it, because that's 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:07.240 the hope. That's the trauma bond. When you started gray rocking, 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.319 did you experience the escalation I was talking about? So 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.520 you did, so you were holding back and then the escalation, yes, 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:14.640 And what did that look like? 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.000 So at one point he was threatening to go over 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.600 to somebody's house that I knew, and I. 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.599 Was scared, but I also knew him well enough with 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:23.120 that point. 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.319 First of all, he doesn't have a driver's license because 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:27.959 he gets everybody to do everything for him. So I 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:29.559 was like, well, first of all, you don't drive, you're 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:31.320 not going to go anywhere. But I remember him getting 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.800 dressed saying he was going to go to this person's house, 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.360 and it was very threatening. He was demanding the address, 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.680 and I just didn't react I just kept saying, okay, yep, yeah, 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:41.440 if that's what you want to do, and they ended 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:43.800 up not doing anything and not going anywhere, and that 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.040 was sort of the first kind of call their bluff yes, 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:51.640 saying yes, and then I wouldn't laugh at their jokes, 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.960 like they were always incredibly inappropriate. 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.400 And one of the ways they really tested the people. 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.400 Around them and incriminated them in things was by you know, 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:02.439 there was sort of a code of contact for how 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:03.520 you needed to act. 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.640 Rule number one was always just keep him happy and 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:06.760 keep things de escalated. 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:08.880 And one way to do that was just laughing at 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:13.080 the terrible jokes, joining in with things that were highly inappropriate. 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.319 You feel like, yeah, I'm on your side, I'm trustworthy 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:18.960 because I'm joining in with you, and so you're not 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:21.360 going to come after me because I'm sort of being 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:23.520 just as disgusting. And after a while I was like, 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.880 I can't do this anymore, and so I stopped and 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:28.200 I stopped performing in. 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.280 Front of people, which was a big, a big thing 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:30.800 to do. 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.400 So like people would come to the house, usually like 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:37.760 a famous person or somebody that he needed to do 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:38.240 a job. 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.040 It was either status or servitude. The only way he 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:42.320 would interact. 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.360 With people, is if he was getting one of these 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.800 two things out of the relationship. He didn't just have 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.360 friends that he hung out with that he connected with 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:51.320 that we just enjoy each other this company, there's an 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:51.880 exchange here. 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:53.400 I'm getting something from this. 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.200 And so it was always a big deal when someone 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.320 came to the house because it was almost like a show. 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:00.440 It was like we had to put on a show 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:03.680 for these people. And he liked having me around. I 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.480 think because I brought some status. I could wait on 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:08.600 them and bring out drinks and do these things, and 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:10.800 it made him seem very powerful. And if you did 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:14.080 things wrong, you would hear about it when the people left, 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:15.440 So everything would be fine. 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.040 When the people were there. You would act like we've 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:19.400 got this great relationship. 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:22.160 Sometimes he would say demeaning things or do something and 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:23.800 literally sometimes it would be so horrible. 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.920 The guests would think he was kidding, yeah, and they 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.160 would lean over to me and they would say, he's 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:31.120 kidding though, right, And I would just sort of. 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.640 Have to shrug and look at them like no, but 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.320 I can't say anything because he's right there and I'm 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:37.200 going to hear about it later. 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.680 It's what I call sort of the dinner party paradox 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.800 of the narcissistic relationship. Right, Oh, this is they're great, 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:44.560 like you guys are great? 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:46.800 Have you ever seen anything like that? 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.000 Door closes? And the other place this happens in a 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.600 pronounced way is in cars. The event is done, you're 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.080 in the car and the gloves come off and you 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.640 can't get car right. Like a car is the worst 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.840 because if this thing's hurtling down the freeway at seventy 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.440 miles an hour, there's no getting out. That moment is 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:11.480 such a signature move in any narcissistic relationship, which means them. 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.400 As the evening's going on, there is this sense of 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:18.560 dread that overwhelmed you and completely clench when you're thinking, 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:19.000 did I. 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:19.440 Say that wrong? 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:19.720 To night? 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:20.640 You're walking on eggshells. 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.600 This is shards of glass, shards glass at this point, 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.280 egg shells left the room a long time ago. Right, 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.200 But you know what's coming because there's no way you 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.280 would have hit every beat perfectly because you can't read 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:33.640 someone else's mind. 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.960 Now they're looking for something too. I remember one time 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.760 I got in trouble because I gave the guests water 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:41.560 when they arrived, but I gave them to them in 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:47.280 plastic bottles instead of glasses, and it turned into like 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.840 being up all night just getting berated and yelled at 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.480 about how you either don't care or you're making them 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:56.680 look bad, or this is how things need to be 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.080 when people show up, and here's what needs to change. 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:02.560 And just like the constant criticism, the constant it doesn't 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.080 matter what you do, they are going to find something. 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:07.960 It's a game you cannot win, and they're just going 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:09.560 to keep moving the goalposts and they're just going to 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.000 keep up in the anne to keep you destabilized and 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:17.600 apologizing and constantly trying to please them so that you're 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:19.800 not looking at the horrible things. 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.280 That they're doing. And god forbid you ever try to 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:23.800 like call them out or turn it around on them, 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:25.440 which I just knew not to do that. 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.480 Evan, you're talking about you're translating into gray Rock. How 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:31.560 much of it at that point though, was a frank 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.919 trauma response to what you're doing. 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:36.320 It wasn't even necessarily a conscious thing. 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:38.639 That's what I'm hearing. It's not even the intentionality that 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:40.560 gray Rock. And sometimes I didn't know Grayrock was. You 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.080 didn't know what it was a thing, right, So what 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.880 you were experiencing was dissociation and numbness. And when you're 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:51.360 talking about the most severe levels of narcissistic abuse, that 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.040 definitely was what your experience was. It is traumatic. You 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:58.880 start getting into the territory of complex trauma, of severe 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:04.920 relational trauma, and at that point a person is now dissociated, 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:08.040 their numb It's like the soul has left the body 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.840 kind of thing. Actually, in a way, they've annexed you. 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:13.879 You're done, Like it's a horrifying sense of disposability as 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:15.359 they've emptied out the bottle. 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.040 That's exactly how it felt. 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:18.600 It just felt like he's kind of pawing at me 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:20.199 while I lay on the growling, Oh, I think this 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:20.680 one's done. 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:22.040 Yes, Yes, And then I. 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:26.159 Definitely noticed him getting bored with me, And then I 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:27.919 got a partner movie and that's what got me out 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:28.439 of the house. 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:30.560 He still tried to call me a few times. 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:32.720 After that, but I got the nerve to hang up 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.160 on him and change my number. And normally he would 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.520 just keep calling and keep finding ways around that, but 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.439 that last time after I changed my number, he seemed 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.919 to sort of fall back yeah and move on to 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.320 the next supply, Okay, all right, so, which I'm sure 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:46.600 he already had in the chamber. 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.760 You know, they're always there, always is, these relationships. In 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.359 two thousand and nine, Brian told Spin magazine that the 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:56.600 day after he and Evan broke up, he called her 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.920 one hundred and fifty eight times. He was quoted as 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:04.240 saying I have fantasies every day about smashing her skull 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:09.040 in with a sledgehammer, a comment his team later characterized 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:14.359 as a quote obviously a theatrical rock star interview promoting 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.640 a new record and not a factual account. 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.720 And it's always the same sort of pattern of you know, 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.119 the new supply comes in, he lets her know that 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:28.280 the supply he currently has is crazy and is really 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.800 hurting his spirit, and doesn't understand him and is very controlling. 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:36.520 And we have to hide our relationship because they're so erratic. 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:40.119 Yes, so let's keep doing this in secrecy while I 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.600 try to get the crazy one out. That was his emo. 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:45.440 I would say that that must be on like page 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:50.280 thirty two of the Narcissism Relationship, because it's the now 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.000 that that person's gone, it is getting ahead of it. 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.320 If you were to ever speak to this person. Not 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:57.280 only have you been painted as though there's something wrong 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.280 with you, it's an opportunity to sort of elevate the 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:02.960 new partner who feels as though, well, I'm going to 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:04.920 shave you how saying I am, I'm going to show 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:08.159 you how saviory rescue that great? How fortunate are you 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:09.800 good that you got rid of. 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:11.639 I'm going to be so much better than that person. 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:13.200 I understand you way more. 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:15.600 Yeah, you said something before though that did jump out 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:17.800 to manage. The language you use was fascinating. You said 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:21.440 you would get in trouble if you did something wrong, 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:23.320 you know, bring the water in the wrong cup. First 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:26.200 of all, in no healthy human relationship, child or adult, 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:29.440 should anyone ever feel that they were going to get 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:31.560 in trouble. A child shouldn't feel that they're going to 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:33.560 get in trouble. They might feel like, I know, Mom 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:35.960 told me not to do this. A consequence or something 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.199 get in trouble. The gotcha. There's a gotcha feel to 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:44.240 every narcissistic relationship. It's also infantilizing, evan that I'm going 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:48.320 to get in trouble. That's very much a child's statement, right. 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:52.000 So these relationships are designed to leave a person feeling 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:55.680 as disempowered as a child would in a relationship. 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:59.480 And it's knowing that something painful is coming. 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:03.520 Correct, It's like you know that whatever's coming is really 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:04.119 going to hurt. 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:06.879 It's really going to hurt. Yes, and that's terrifying. 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:08.160 It is. Yeah. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.800 Well, testifying in front of Congress, Evan explained the painful 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:16.400 punishment she experienced, saying she was tied up by her 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:21.040 hands and feet, beaten, and told by her abuser quote, 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.879 I could kill you right now. Here's the thing I 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:28.280 want to really talk about is you were only nineteen 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:32.159 when this relationship began, in eighteen. I'm not going to 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:36.080 use child feels a little heavy handed though adolescent. Yes, 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:40.840 And this beautiful brain of ours is kind of rocking 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.119 and rolling to you, like summer meter twenty five and thirty. 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:46.840 A lot of innervating still happening in this frontal lobe. 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:49.240 It's the last part of the turkey to cook, which 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:51.600 is why we see adolescents are, you know, kind of 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:52.800 sometimes all over the map. 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:54.000 Yeah, and impulsive. 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:56.840 And it don't mean this word to be like dismissive, 0:21:56.840 --> 0:21:59.440 but to me, you were a child in many ways, absolutely, 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.560 and so to the verbiage and the power and the control. 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:07.320 You weren't eighteen years old? What age were you when 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:08.400 the relationship ended? 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:09.040 Twenty two? 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:12.320 Okay, so four years And in that whole period of 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.479 time eighteen to twenty two, this never got done. 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:16.400 Oh. 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:20.119 I felt was completely stunted. So much catching up to 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:22.520 do afterwards. I felt like I fell so far behind 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:25.760 on life skills and communication skills and relationship skills. And 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:28.360 that was another thing that was really hard to navigate 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:31.679 after getting out, was having to play catch up and 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:34.439 feeling like my peers had passed me and not knowing 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:36.119 how to function. 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.560 And there's grief around that, Oh, so much grief. 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.560 I mean, I grieved like the person I was before 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:45.800 the abuse, and I hear this a lot with survivors 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:48.080 of this kind of abuse. It was hard for me 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:49.960 to watch films that I had done from before. It 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:52.600 was hard for me to look at photographs. I think 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.480 also because one of their goals was to make sure 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:59.280 I felt terrible about myself, yeah, and that I felt 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:03.159 inadequate and broken, and they would tell me constantly like 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:05.600 that I was broken and no one was ever going 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:07.880 to love me after this, and after he was done 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:09.679 with me. No one was going to love me or 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:12.399 touch me or you know, take me seriously. And this 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:13.760 is one of the reasons why I tried to kill 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:18.040 myself before the very end of our relationship, because I 0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:20.600 didn't know how to get back to baseline or where 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:23.040 I was, not even saying like I was the healthiest person, 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:25.960 but nowhere near where I was. So I at one 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:28.239 point felt like the only way through it was to 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:30.400 die because I didn't know how to get myself back. 0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:33.520 A grief around who you were, what was lost, what 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:36.359 your life should have been, should have looked like. I 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:38.200 felt like my life was supposed to have a very 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:42.360 different trajectory, and the realization of what happened to you. 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:46.080 The more I learned about it, the more grief comes 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:49.119 with it. Because when you read a textbook about domestic violencer, 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:51.399 about narcissism, and you think these things that have happened 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:54.320 you are so unique and have kept you so isolated 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:56.480 from people for so long, and then you start reading 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:58.560 about it and the realization of how common it is 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:02.280 and all of these red flags that maybe had you 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:03.879 known or could have looked out for, or maybe it 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:05.879 was well educated about, maybe you could have seen it. 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:08.240 But there's also a part of me that just thinks 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:09.760 everybody susceptible to this. 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:15.720 Everybody is because with some exceptions, but very few human 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:19.920 beings are oriented towards attachment and love. And I think 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:22.919 that I'm sort of on an anti red flag crusade, 0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:27.119 really yes, because I think it's an unsafe framing because 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:29.439 when we make it about red flags, we're putting the 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:31.800 onus on the survivor of why didn't you see it right? 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:32.320 Well? 0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:36.240 Versus this is unacceptable behavior, right, And then to let 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:40.560 people know that when the unacceptable behavior descends into something 0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:43.879 where you've already started to form what feels like a 0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:47.600 meaningful attachment, resting your way out of this is not 0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:49.760 something you can do alone. You need either someone to 0:24:49.800 --> 0:24:51.800 throw you the life ring or to tell you out, 0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:55.560 because that's a big, big leap to frame it that way. 0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:58.879 No eighteen year old on the planet is going to 0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:01.520 be able to manage that. Most forty eight year olds 0:25:01.520 --> 0:25:03.760 on the planet are not able to manage it. And 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:06.240 it's interesting because I do talk a lot about people 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:09.240 who is more vulnerable, who's more susceptible? Are there things 0:25:09.240 --> 0:25:10.960 that can stack the odds? Sure? 0:25:11.200 --> 0:25:15.280 Yeah, Yeah, I think they say like most domestic violence crimes, 0:25:15.320 --> 0:25:17.479 like the highest rates are between the ages of sixteen 0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:20.600 and twenty four, because that's when you're absolutely you know, 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:22.640 you're a child and an adult's body at that point. 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:25.160 It's things like, yes, certainly, things like having a history 0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:29.080 of trauma, having a history of narcissistic relationships in your life. 0:25:29.320 --> 0:25:33.040 But we can even pivot to things like being really positive, 0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:34.280 see see the. 0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:36.960 Good and everyone that was definitely. 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:40.800 No, being very forgiving, being a rescuer, seeing something in 0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:43.520 someone that you feel the rest of the world is 0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:46.639 not seeing one hundred percent. Then you also have to 0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:49.719 count for things like being less empowered in a system 0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:53.280 or culture or society because of race, because of lack 0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:56.919 of financial support, because of lack of family support. That also, 0:25:57.000 --> 0:26:00.000 almost the privilege of detecting a red flag is taken 0:26:00.160 --> 0:26:03.160 away from you right right Then, on top of all 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:11.200 of this, you throw in that this narcissistic person is charismatic, compelling, charming, smart, 0:26:11.720 --> 0:26:14.679 and often the reason they grab us is because for 0:26:14.840 --> 0:26:17.600 us in particular, there may be something about this person 0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:20.080 that jumped out of us. When you take all of 0:26:20.119 --> 0:26:23.040 that and shake it up, the milkshake you're pouring out 0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:27.280 of there is dangerous and toxic and confusing, and there 0:26:27.359 --> 0:26:30.119 was a time you truly cared about this person. 0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:32.760 Oh that's the time. That's the hardest to think about 0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:33.399 or talk about. 0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:36.960 Really, it's really the hardest part to access because it's 0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:40.399 so hard to imagine now and it's so sad to 0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:44.920 think about and what I thought I felt. And that's 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:48.879 the scariest part because for me, it wasn't just about 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:50.080 like trusting other people. 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:52.280 It was trusting myself again. 0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:55.399 Because there's a lot of people are like, oh, I 0:26:55.400 --> 0:26:57.919 ignored my gut feeling or ignored red flags. But sometimes 0:26:57.920 --> 0:26:59.960 you don't see red flags. You don't have a gut feeling. 0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:04.240 Everything feels fine, like you feel completely safe. I really felt. 0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:07.119 Like I was lucky to be there, and I was 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:09.560 being really taken care of, and I was being saved. 0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:11.080 And in the beginning, they. 0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:13.159 Were careful with me, they were slow with me. They 0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:17.119 like they took their time to establish a sense of 0:27:17.160 --> 0:27:21.639 trust and safety and vulnerability. It took a while for 0:27:21.720 --> 0:27:22.880 things to really escalate. 0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:26.399 Okay, so how old was he when he met you? 0:27:26.600 --> 0:27:28.400 He was thirty seven. He was eighteen years older. 0:27:28.440 --> 0:27:30.399 Okay, so he was eighteen years older than I'm still 0:27:30.440 --> 0:27:31.840 not the age that he was. 0:27:32.040 --> 0:27:35.480 Okay, wow, yeah, let's just sit with that for a minute. Yeah, 0:27:35.560 --> 0:27:37.800 you are still not the age that he was as 0:27:37.880 --> 0:27:41.520 you approached that age thirty seven, and you witness what 0:27:41.640 --> 0:27:43.200 eighteen looks like in the world. 0:27:43.560 --> 0:27:46.119 This just happened to me. Actually, my little sister just 0:27:46.160 --> 0:27:48.840 turned eighteen. Wow. And I spent a day with. 0:27:48.800 --> 0:27:50.920 Her and a friend of hers that I was around 0:27:50.960 --> 0:27:53.040 the same age, and that is all I could think 0:27:53.080 --> 0:27:57.320 of all day was, Yes, she is so smart and 0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:00.000 beautiful and intelligent, but she's a child. 0:28:01.240 --> 0:28:02.560 That's a child, that's a child. 0:28:03.080 --> 0:28:08.520 She's still so vulnerable and innocent. And that doesn't mean 0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:10.720 I don't have respect for her and think that she's 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:14.480 not smart. But yes, it was so apparent to me 0:28:14.560 --> 0:28:16.800 that day just how vulnerable I was at that age, 0:28:16.880 --> 0:28:21.680 and imagining somebody like Brian imagining her in his clutches, 0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:23.280 and you know, it helped paint a better picture for 0:28:23.400 --> 0:28:26.960 me too. Why so many people were their alarm bells 0:28:26.960 --> 0:28:29.679 were going off back in the day, but I was 0:28:29.680 --> 0:28:32.400 already set up to really just not trust. 0:28:32.200 --> 0:28:34.639 The adults around me anymore. Why was that? 0:28:34.760 --> 0:28:37.160 Brian definitely put that in my head from the beginning. 0:28:37.680 --> 0:28:40.680 I think because I had struggled a bit in the 0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:44.200 entertainment industry with feeling a bit controlled, feeling stifled, feeling 0:28:44.240 --> 0:28:46.480 like I had to behave and act a certain way 0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:48.920 to be loved or to be liked, and it didn't 0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:51.800 always feel authentic, and I think I felt a little 0:28:51.800 --> 0:28:54.120 trapped and I was struggling with that. That was part 0:28:54.120 --> 0:28:56.920 of the allure of being in his world. It just 0:28:56.960 --> 0:28:59.840 seemed like a place where you were free of judgment 0:29:00.200 --> 0:29:03.160 and it was all about expression and being exactly who 0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:03.520 you are. 0:29:03.880 --> 0:29:05.840 The part of me that wanted to feel. 0:29:05.600 --> 0:29:08.120 Like I was a part of some sort of noble cause, 0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:11.200 Like he felt like really trying to change people's. 0:29:10.880 --> 0:29:12.640 Way of thinking in the world, and. 0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:14.960 It felt like I was a part of something really 0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:16.560 special and really great. 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:18.120 The part of myself that. 0:29:18.200 --> 0:29:20.400 Yeah, that was a little like no things need to 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:22.080 be shaken up and fuck the establishment. 0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:25.040 This is rebellious arts, you know, sort of short film. 0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:29.080 And he was capitalizing on a developmental chasm, the chasm 0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:33.080 between eighteen and thirty seven, let's fast forward, that is 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:36.080 very different than the chasm between sixty and seventy nine. 0:29:36.400 --> 0:29:39.840 Does that make sense, right? Age differences aren't linear. Those 0:29:39.880 --> 0:29:42.640 gaps go steep and less deep depending on how old 0:29:42.680 --> 0:29:44.920 we are. But that is a chasm in at eighteen 0:29:45.520 --> 0:29:49.560 to his thirty seven. That's grooming. So you were talking 0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:52.320 about he was very careful with you in the beginning, 0:29:53.000 --> 0:29:59.440 that carefulness, that drawing you in subsequently creating trust and engagement. 0:29:59.800 --> 0:30:02.480 To me, there's no other word but grooming that could 0:30:02.520 --> 0:30:05.120 be applied there. Yeah, grooming and love bombing, And I 0:30:05.160 --> 0:30:07.520 would say the love bombing is part of the grooming. 0:30:07.600 --> 0:30:10.880 How long did this sort of careful period last before 0:30:10.920 --> 0:30:13.320 his behavior started to shift and change. 0:30:13.000 --> 0:30:17.000 Well before anything even romantic happened. It was at least 0:30:17.080 --> 0:30:20.240 a few months of just hanging out and being friends 0:30:20.280 --> 0:30:24.560 and nothing feeling off or weird, and. 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:25.640 Everybody was like, what's going on between the two of you? 0:30:25.720 --> 0:30:27.960 And I was like, there's literally nothing going on, Like 0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:30.840 everybody's freaking out over nothing. He's never tried anything with me, 0:30:30.960 --> 0:30:34.360 you know, And I was almost offended that people would 0:30:34.440 --> 0:30:38.520 ask that. And also at the time, I viewed myself 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:41.280 as a child. I felt very young and sort of 0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:44.320 in over my head, but kind of special to be chosen, 0:30:44.360 --> 0:30:46.600 and maybe there was something special about me that only 0:30:46.840 --> 0:30:49.320 he saw and that everybody else was missing, because that 0:30:49.400 --> 0:30:51.480 is kind of how I felt in my life. So yes, 0:30:51.520 --> 0:30:54.160 it was a few months and then things sort of 0:30:54.600 --> 0:30:58.080 turned romantic, and I remember just being shocked because I 0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:00.440 didn't understand why he was a track me. 0:31:00.520 --> 0:31:01.400 I just felt like. 0:31:02.440 --> 0:31:04.520 I never thought there was even a chance that that 0:31:04.560 --> 0:31:06.920 could happen. I was like, this is like some older 0:31:07.040 --> 0:31:10.120 rock star who's also like married and can have anybody 0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:12.240 he wants, and I'm like, this kind of weird, awkward, 0:31:12.360 --> 0:31:15.600 young kid essentially that's just kind of a nerd. 0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:17.160 And then I. 0:31:17.160 --> 0:31:18.840 Think at the time how I made sense of it 0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:20.840 was like, oh, I'm just you know, I'm really mature 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:24.080 for my age, and I'm actually really soulful and age 0:31:24.120 --> 0:31:26.400 doesn't really matter, and I'm. 0:31:26.280 --> 0:31:26.880 Like a fluke. 0:31:26.920 --> 0:31:30.240 I didn't know that there were possibly other miners at 0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:30.560 the time. 0:31:30.640 --> 0:31:31.360 I didn't know that. 0:31:31.560 --> 0:31:34.400 In retrospect, especially when I found out about the alleged 0:31:34.440 --> 0:31:37.840 miners that have come forward and looking at the timeline, 0:31:38.200 --> 0:31:40.720 and then this moment of realization of not only did 0:31:40.760 --> 0:31:43.760 you never know this person never, Like the second he 0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:47.680 said alone to you, it wasn't real, but he picked 0:31:47.680 --> 0:31:49.600 you because you were young. He picked you because you 0:31:49.640 --> 0:31:52.080 were a child. He picked you because you were flat chested. 0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:55.120 There's certain things that I looked back and thought, these 0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:57.560 are things he's looking past to be with me. And 0:31:57.600 --> 0:31:59.560 then in retrospect it was no, this is why you 0:31:59.560 --> 0:32:03.920 were chosen. And that was like a huge switch that 0:32:03.960 --> 0:32:04.600 got flipped. 0:32:05.360 --> 0:32:06.480 The narrative had to change. 0:32:06.520 --> 0:32:08.840 When did you come into that realization that instead of 0:32:08.880 --> 0:32:10.560 these are things that were being looked past, these are 0:32:10.560 --> 0:32:12.640 actually reasons I was being chosen for, because to be 0:32:12.720 --> 0:32:16.240 chosen for those reasons is actually much more pathologic and unsettling. 0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:18.959 Right when, you know, stories started popping up on the 0:32:18.960 --> 0:32:21.480 internet again, you know, I had to stay alleged. People 0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:26.120 started saying this happened to me, and I was this age, 0:32:26.920 --> 0:32:31.520 here's when it happened. That knocked me down so hard 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:34.240 because I think before that I was still trying to 0:32:34.280 --> 0:32:37.400 convince myself that maybe there were horrible things that had happened, 0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:39.680 but maybe there were good things in between, or maybe 0:32:39.680 --> 0:32:43.160 we had moments of clarity or moments of real connection 0:32:43.320 --> 0:32:46.360 or moments of real love and sprinkled into that were 0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:47.840 just this devastation. 0:32:48.440 --> 0:32:50.400 And then when I found that out and I realized that. 0:32:50.400 --> 0:32:52.440 He was leading a double life essentially, and that there 0:32:52.440 --> 0:32:53.760 was a whole other side to him that. 0:32:53.720 --> 0:32:54.800 I never knew existed. 0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:59.360 Then everything feels like a violation at that point. 0:32:59.200 --> 0:33:01.960 Completely again that now we're back to the grief. Yeah, 0:33:02.000 --> 0:33:04.760 because if you're grieving a thing you thought was and 0:33:04.800 --> 0:33:06.640 I think this is one of the big struggles in 0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:10.640 narcissistic relationships because when you use that grief framework, a 0:33:10.680 --> 0:33:12.880 lot of people say, what, like, no one's dead, what 0:33:12.920 --> 0:33:15.040 are you talking about. If you had a relationship and 0:33:15.120 --> 0:33:18.080 it's done and it wasn't what it was, that's the problem. 0:33:18.440 --> 0:33:21.320 And so you're even grieving that you were in something 0:33:21.360 --> 0:33:26.000 you thought was something and it wasn't that something. It's very, 0:33:26.120 --> 0:33:29.440 very unsettling because you really truly believed it was this 0:33:29.520 --> 0:33:30.120 other thing. 0:33:30.040 --> 0:33:31.480 And then you start questioning everything. 0:33:31.880 --> 0:33:41.880 We will be right back with this conversation. You've questioned everything. 0:33:42.000 --> 0:33:45.320 So what happens with accumulated gaslighting is that you actually 0:33:45.360 --> 0:33:49.040 start to feel psychotic, is that you're no longer in reality. 0:33:49.120 --> 0:33:49.320 Right. 0:33:49.400 --> 0:33:49.880 It's funny. 0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:51.760 There were a couple of projects that I did before 0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:54.719 coming forward that shook things up. 0:33:54.720 --> 0:33:56.520 It was like it shook something loose. 0:33:56.280 --> 0:33:59.040 In my psyche that had been sort of like calcified 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:01.040 and buried away. First one was when I had to 0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:03.960 do like a pretty brutal sexual assault scene in a 0:34:03.960 --> 0:34:05.200 film called Into the Forest. 0:34:05.680 --> 0:34:10.120 And that was the first day that I. 0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:11.680 Started questioning some of the things that had happened to 0:34:11.680 --> 0:34:13.400 me and that they were possibly assault. 0:34:14.480 --> 0:34:15.200 I couldn't even. 0:34:15.040 --> 0:34:17.719 Say that I was raped for many, many many years 0:34:17.760 --> 0:34:19.840 after the fact, like it wouldn't even come out of 0:34:19.880 --> 0:34:22.920 my mouth. And people started asking me about that scene 0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:25.000 when I was doing press for the film, and I 0:34:25.080 --> 0:34:28.239 really tried to dodge questions about it, just sort of 0:34:28.239 --> 0:34:30.600 deny it, like, oh, no, this has never happened to me, 0:34:30.640 --> 0:34:33.480 but I've got a lot to say about it, and 0:34:33.520 --> 0:34:36.040 that wasn't sustainable. Right after I did that movie, actually 0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:37.600 I went and did West World. There was only a 0:34:37.719 --> 0:34:40.520 day between the two of those projects. I finished one, 0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:42.880 I got on the plane immediately started filming Westworld, and 0:34:42.920 --> 0:34:45.719 then I didn't know what West World was really going 0:34:45.760 --> 0:34:48.640 to be about. They kept everything kind of hidden from us, 0:34:48.680 --> 0:34:51.920 and so I was finding out with the show like 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:55.040 script by script and as an actor. 0:34:54.880 --> 0:34:57.240 Being put in situations. 0:34:56.440 --> 0:34:59.360 Where you have to be in peril or you're getting 0:34:59.360 --> 0:35:02.239 beaten up or getting dragged or being threatened, or you're 0:35:02.239 --> 0:35:05.720 having to stand up against an abuser. As an actor, 0:35:06.120 --> 0:35:09.040 at least for me, you go back in your rolodex 0:35:09.120 --> 0:35:11.560 and you say, what can I draw from bring real 0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:14.960 emotion to the scene. And of course I had my experiences, 0:35:15.400 --> 0:35:17.319 and it was the first time I think I'd really 0:35:17.400 --> 0:35:20.000 let myself go back and feel certain things because I 0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:23.520 wasn't able to cry about it for about I want 0:35:23.520 --> 0:35:24.400 to say, seven years. 0:35:24.480 --> 0:35:26.880 I didn't cry about anything. 0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:27.960 That had happened to me until I got in a 0:35:27.960 --> 0:35:29.960 trauma therapy like many many years. 0:35:29.800 --> 0:35:32.160 Ago, seven years out of the relationship before you were 0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:33.520 able to cry about it, before I was able to 0:35:33.520 --> 0:35:34.000 shed a tear. 0:35:34.640 --> 0:35:38.680 Yeah, And then suddenly I'm doing these scenes where it's 0:35:38.719 --> 0:35:40.759 my job, you know, it's like you got to go there. 0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:44.520 And it gave me permission, I think, yeah, and a 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:48.799 buffer because I was in a controlled situation, so I 0:35:48.800 --> 0:35:50.480 could allow myself. 0:35:50.080 --> 0:35:52.759 In a bit more. And it just like opened up 0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:53.600 Pandora's box. 0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:56.960 Like there's a scene like my character is programmed, she 0:35:57.000 --> 0:35:59.920 can't pull any triggers of any guns, she's trapped, can 0:36:00.160 --> 0:36:03.760 defend herself, and then there's a scene where she finally 0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:06.400 does and she overrides her program and she pulls the 0:36:06.400 --> 0:36:08.800 trigger and she gets up and she runs, And that scene, 0:36:08.840 --> 0:36:12.640 I remember, was a big moment for me, having to 0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:17.760 act the feeling of being held back and then breaking 0:36:17.840 --> 0:36:22.279 through it, and then definitely filming the finale, there's this 0:36:22.320 --> 0:36:27.200 beautiful monologue that I was given about I'm not crying 0:36:27.200 --> 0:36:30.800 for myself, I'm crying for you because I'm going to 0:36:30.840 --> 0:36:34.200 stand up and I'm going to keep going and You're 0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:34.480 going to. 0:36:34.520 --> 0:36:36.719 Perish and fights back. 0:36:36.800 --> 0:36:39.160 And that was a big day too, And that was 0:36:39.200 --> 0:36:41.239 sort of the first time I started telling people like 0:36:41.280 --> 0:36:44.880 I definitely told people on set like people I trusted 0:36:45.320 --> 0:36:47.000 just in case I got triggered or something. 0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:49.399 So I started opening up to people a little bit 0:36:49.400 --> 0:36:49.719 more and. 0:36:49.680 --> 0:36:51.799 Saying, you know, I was in a really abusive relationship 0:36:51.800 --> 0:36:53.240 and I just want you to can you just stand 0:36:53.280 --> 0:36:56.560 off to the side just in case, Like I don't 0:36:56.560 --> 0:36:58.680 want anybody to really know, but I definitely want somebody 0:36:58.680 --> 0:37:01.200 a safe person there in case I get to. 0:37:01.160 --> 0:37:02.080 Her mooned or something. 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:06.160 And so doing the show unlocked a lot of things 0:37:06.280 --> 0:37:08.920 and got me talking about it bit by bit, and 0:37:08.960 --> 0:37:09.600 then I met. 0:37:09.480 --> 0:37:10.759 Other survivors on that show. 0:37:10.920 --> 0:37:14.200 Oh Okay, you know Tanduway Newton's has come forward as well, 0:37:14.360 --> 0:37:16.880 and she recognized. 0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:21.480 Something in me. Wow, And then she brought me to Evensler. 0:37:22.400 --> 0:37:25.520 Yeah, and Eve was one of the first people I 0:37:25.560 --> 0:37:28.200 told my story to and she was one of the 0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:32.280 first people that said I believe you and like that. 0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:34.040 That also kickstarted a lot of things. 0:37:34.040 --> 0:37:36.560 So you said she saw something, she saw something, and 0:37:36.600 --> 0:37:37.239 what was that? 0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:39.520 She said, I could just tell you were still in it. 0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:42.200 There was a buzzing sort of energy to me. 0:37:43.120 --> 0:37:46.319 And I think now talking to some of those same 0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:49.040 people years later and then interacting with me, like everybody 0:37:49.120 --> 0:37:51.160 usually says the same thing. They're like, your whole energy 0:37:51.200 --> 0:37:55.480 has changed, your calmer, You're lighter then, you know, I 0:37:55.480 --> 0:37:58.600 was still kind of chain smoking and still agitated, and 0:37:58.640 --> 0:38:01.960 still like she's numbing something Like I can just tell 0:38:02.120 --> 0:38:04.799 she's trying to keep herself busy. She's got these kind 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:07.399 of nervous habits. I think she just saw something that 0:38:07.640 --> 0:38:10.000 she identified with. I've seen it too, Like I've connected 0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:14.080 with people not knowing their backstories at all from one meeting. 0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:16.440 I can just tell by looking in their eyes, or 0:38:16.440 --> 0:38:20.120 I can tell by their communication skills or styles that 0:38:20.120 --> 0:38:23.080 they've done inner work and that they've been through something 0:38:23.200 --> 0:38:25.120 and all immediately feel sort of connected. 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:27.200 I love how you just put it is there's a buzzing. 0:38:27.719 --> 0:38:31.239 I think that's actually probably more accurate than you would know, 0:38:31.440 --> 0:38:34.160 because there is sort of a frizzon, like the crackling 0:38:34.200 --> 0:38:37.520 that's happening in somebody who's viewing everything in your life 0:38:37.600 --> 0:38:40.279 as a threat, and it wasn't being processed, and it 0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:42.359 was being numbed in so many different ways, but there's 0:38:42.400 --> 0:38:45.240 really no putting it away. I think that that's the piece. 0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:49.480 When your relationship ended, Evan, you left, but you weren't 0:38:49.520 --> 0:38:53.120 talking about it, so I mean, it's like a psychological 0:38:53.160 --> 0:38:58.200 pseudo safety. You're away from the peril because obviously there's 0:38:58.239 --> 0:39:01.879 a benefit to no longer having to live under those circumstances. 0:39:01.880 --> 0:39:05.680 But if you don't do the processing, it's like they're 0:39:05.760 --> 0:39:09.000 still in the room with you, right, So it's you 0:39:09.040 --> 0:39:11.040 were not living in the same place, but your nervous 0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:14.440 system didn't get the memo, So as far as you're concerned, 0:39:14.719 --> 0:39:18.560 they're still there. You're still walking on the eggshells. So 0:39:18.600 --> 0:39:21.080 how long was it before Westworld? Before it was at 0:39:21.080 --> 0:39:24.320 about seven years? Seven years what I want to understand 0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:28.319 is you're out, You're physically out, you're not talking about it, 0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:31.839 so psychologically, that's a long period of time. Six seven 0:39:31.880 --> 0:39:34.080 years is a long time. What was that? 0:39:34.320 --> 0:39:35.880 Like, Sorry, I don't know what I'm crying. 0:39:35.920 --> 0:39:38.360 You never we have a rule on navigating narcissism. Nobody 0:39:38.360 --> 0:39:39.959 gets to say I'm sorry. 0:39:39.680 --> 0:39:44.560 Oh yeah, I think I'm getting emotional, just because those 0:39:44.840 --> 0:39:48.200 years were some of the hardest, because that was before 0:39:48.200 --> 0:39:52.480 I knew what was going on with me, and I 0:39:52.480 --> 0:39:56.840 immediately tried to I got back together with an X 0:39:56.880 --> 0:39:58.960 of mine that I was dating when I met Brian, 0:39:59.000 --> 0:40:00.719 and like, I think the was a part of me 0:40:00.800 --> 0:40:03.759 that just wanted to go back, you know, like just 0:40:03.800 --> 0:40:04.239 wanted to. 0:40:04.160 --> 0:40:06.640 Get back to where I was before and to try 0:40:06.680 --> 0:40:09.239 and like fix what was broken. And I didn't know 0:40:09.239 --> 0:40:13.400 how to describe what was happening with me or my body. 0:40:13.680 --> 0:40:18.080 I was definitely still programmed to respond and behave like 0:40:18.120 --> 0:40:19.880 I was in the room with Brian, for sure, and 0:40:19.920 --> 0:40:23.680 I think that really confused my partner because it seemed 0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:25.880 like I was being dishonest about things, and it seemed 0:40:25.920 --> 0:40:29.120 like I was, you know, it wasn't safe to tell 0:40:29.120 --> 0:40:32.480 the truth with Brian, and I think that carried on 0:40:32.600 --> 0:40:36.680 into my next relationship, where I was just programmed to 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:38.560 like if I felt like I was going to get 0:40:38.560 --> 0:40:40.319 in trouble, or if I felt like I'd done something wrong, 0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:41.920 or if I felt like I didn't say the right thing, 0:40:41.960 --> 0:40:43.880 I was like, oh, well, well, here's the excuse, and 0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:45.520 here's here's me defending myself. 0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:48.200 Here's and here's this, and here's here's this panic. And 0:40:48.239 --> 0:40:49.400 I I think. 0:40:49.239 --> 0:40:52.759 That comes across very alarming to certain. 0:40:52.440 --> 0:40:54.360 People and confusing. 0:40:54.360 --> 0:40:56.359 And I didn't know why I was doing that, why 0:40:56.400 --> 0:40:57.800 I was responding in these ways. 0:40:57.880 --> 0:40:59.640 I didn't know why I was so shut down. 0:41:00.480 --> 0:41:02.759 I didn't know why I was self sabotaging and being 0:41:02.760 --> 0:41:07.560 impulsive and unable to be honest with them about certain things. 0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:11.239 Still could just completely programmed and didn't know that I 0:41:11.239 --> 0:41:12.000 had PTSD. 0:41:12.120 --> 0:41:13.360 I was having night terrors. 0:41:13.680 --> 0:41:17.120 I would wake up screaming next to my partner in sweats. 0:41:17.160 --> 0:41:20.520 So it wasn't until I kept trying to have this 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:24.000 normal life and it just wasn't working and all of 0:41:24.040 --> 0:41:30.160 these emotional problems and relationship problems and nervous system problems 0:41:30.200 --> 0:41:33.799 started popping up that I realized, like I couldn't run 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:35.880 for a minute anymore. And it took sort of everything 0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:39.200 falling apart and my marriage falling apart and becoming a 0:41:39.239 --> 0:41:42.759 new mom that really changed everything. So that's what I 0:41:42.840 --> 0:41:45.759 was doing in between, was just trying to move on, 0:41:45.800 --> 0:41:47.680 trying to have a normal life, trying to have a marriage. 0:41:47.960 --> 0:41:49.120 And then once I had. 0:41:48.920 --> 0:41:51.480 My child, I was like, well, you know, if you 0:41:51.480 --> 0:41:52.600 want to be a good parent, you got to work 0:41:52.640 --> 0:41:55.640 on yourself as much as possible. Yeah, whatever issues might 0:41:55.680 --> 0:41:57.560 be in there, and now is the time to sort 0:41:57.600 --> 0:41:59.040 of like face them and get ahead of this as 0:41:59.120 --> 0:42:02.360 much as possible so you're not transferring anything on to 0:42:02.440 --> 0:42:04.799 your kid. And so it became really important to me 0:42:04.880 --> 0:42:07.320 to do self work. Before then, I was just living 0:42:07.360 --> 0:42:08.800 in that. I don't know what's wrong with me. I 0:42:08.880 --> 0:42:12.000 think I'm going crazy. I think my partner thinks I'm crazy. 0:42:12.960 --> 0:42:16.640 Leaving what you did, wanting and craving normal, it's what 0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:21.879 we expect somebody would want after that. But without doing that, 0:42:21.920 --> 0:42:25.640 the processing of the trauma, you're living in a permanent 0:42:25.680 --> 0:42:28.359 state of threat. So what you were describing as sort 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:32.120 of those agitated reactions you'd have with your partner one 0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:37.359 thousand percent expectable because your system was reacting to these 0:42:37.400 --> 0:42:42.399 situations as though they were dire cataclysmic threats. Everything makes sense, right. 0:42:42.560 --> 0:42:45.719 The funny thing about trauma is, as much as it's 0:42:45.760 --> 0:42:49.000 not us sort of having if you will, normal responses, 0:42:49.040 --> 0:42:52.120 it is given what your system believes is coming at it. 0:42:52.160 --> 0:42:54.480 I always call it it's like a faulty alarm system. 0:42:54.480 --> 0:42:56.399 I'm like, yeah, well, I mean your alarm system did 0:42:56.440 --> 0:42:58.120 think something came in the door. The problem is the 0:42:58.160 --> 0:43:03.759 sensor's not right exactly. She wasn't open. Yeah, Like that's it. 0:43:03.840 --> 0:43:04.800 That's really what it is. 0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:05.600 Yea. 0:43:05.840 --> 0:43:09.320 So for those six seven years, as you threw yourself 0:43:09.360 --> 0:43:11.480 into normal, if you will, and it gave you the 0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:14.080 gift of your child. So I don't believe there are 0:43:14.160 --> 0:43:18.920 ever any lost experiences that said, there's no packing this 0:43:19.040 --> 0:43:23.360 away and forgetting about it. Yes, it can become incredibly dissociated. 0:43:23.680 --> 0:43:28.880 But somehow something wafts into our life and it turns 0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:32.200 that light on and illuminates what happened to us. For you, 0:43:32.920 --> 0:43:36.000 it happened while you were making this show. 0:43:35.960 --> 0:43:40.160 And simultaneously my marriage and everything was falling apart. 0:43:40.560 --> 0:43:40.759 Yeah. 0:43:40.840 --> 0:43:43.960 Right, So Westworld feels so significant in terms of an 0:43:44.080 --> 0:43:47.560 insight moment. It's so important for us to learn from 0:43:47.560 --> 0:43:49.359 that because that was sort of like your penny drop 0:43:49.400 --> 0:43:51.719 moment in terms of awareness that led you into a 0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:55.880 new twisted the road for you. Can you share what 0:43:56.000 --> 0:43:59.759 you really ultimately learned from that experience. 0:44:00.120 --> 0:44:03.840 I was moving through life and I was entering relationships 0:44:03.960 --> 0:44:06.480 with the very firm belief there was something wrong with me. 0:44:06.680 --> 0:44:07.480 It was for me. 0:44:07.960 --> 0:44:10.360 Yeah, for those years in between leading up before that, 0:44:10.440 --> 0:44:12.720 I was like, you are the problem. 0:44:12.760 --> 0:44:13.759 Something's wrong with you. 0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:17.480 I think in my marriage and things, I walked into 0:44:17.520 --> 0:44:21.640 that thinking I was completely inferior, that I was lucky 0:44:21.640 --> 0:44:23.719 to be with this person. I think sometimes that was 0:44:23.719 --> 0:44:26.000 sort of the yeah, the vibe of like, you know, 0:44:27.200 --> 0:44:29.120 she's a lot, but I deal with it because I 0:44:29.160 --> 0:44:31.680 love her. People would look at me and say, don't 0:44:31.719 --> 0:44:34.319 fuck this up. It was always just kind of like, right, 0:44:34.480 --> 0:44:37.399 I'm the fucked up one, and if anything goes wrong, 0:44:37.440 --> 0:44:38.160 it's my fault. 0:44:38.680 --> 0:44:41.080 And I took responsibility. 0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:44.319 For everything that went wrong in that marriage everything. I 0:44:44.400 --> 0:44:47.560 never stood up for myself. I never you know, questioned anything. 0:44:47.560 --> 0:44:49.120 It was always just like it's me, it's me, it's me. 0:44:49.520 --> 0:44:51.360 And so that's how I was moving through the world. 0:44:51.680 --> 0:44:58.040 Self blame is the universal pattern of anyone who experiences betrayal, trauma, 0:44:58.360 --> 0:45:02.200 betrayal of any form in a relationship, relational trauma, and 0:45:02.280 --> 0:45:06.640 narcissistic abuse. That's where you go because it serves so 0:45:06.800 --> 0:45:10.040 many functions. It maintains a sense of control. Okay, if 0:45:10.040 --> 0:45:12.360 this is me, then I can change it. It allows 0:45:12.400 --> 0:45:15.400 the attachment or the relationship to persist. It allows your 0:45:15.440 --> 0:45:18.480 worldview to persist that the world is somehow safer or 0:45:18.480 --> 0:45:21.640 more just than this relationship is teaching you. Yes, right, 0:45:21.800 --> 0:45:27.160 it's a lot. So the self blame is this incredibly unhealthy, 0:45:27.560 --> 0:45:32.120 self destructive thing that happens that has slowly eroding us 0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:35.239 to the point where we almost don't know where we 0:45:35.360 --> 0:45:35.759 end in the. 0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:38.320 World begins, Yeah, exactly. 0:45:38.440 --> 0:45:40.560 So a lot of the work of healing is for 0:45:40.640 --> 0:45:42.920 you to understand that there was this experience that happened 0:45:42.920 --> 0:45:46.280 outside of you, that another person was responsible for this behavior, 0:45:46.320 --> 0:45:50.000 that behavior was unacceptable, and there was nothing you could 0:45:50.040 --> 0:45:52.840 do to change that, and nor would it ever change. 0:45:52.920 --> 0:45:56.279 I think before I even got to the place of oh, 0:45:56.320 --> 0:45:58.640 here's the tactics, and here's the thing this person did 0:45:58.640 --> 0:46:01.480 the first step for me, it's just somebody validating that 0:46:01.520 --> 0:46:04.279 what had happened to me was awful like that was 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:05.680 the first step. That was the thing that made me 0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:08.040 cry for the first time. I put myself into trauma 0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:13.080 therapy because while I was doing West World and I 0:46:13.120 --> 0:46:15.200 was noticing these things and certain things were trying to 0:46:15.200 --> 0:46:18.200 get shaken up, I also noticed that I was talking 0:46:18.239 --> 0:46:22.520 to somebody that I was collaborating with creatively. All I 0:46:22.560 --> 0:46:24.360 needed to do was tell them that I wanted to 0:46:24.440 --> 0:46:26.480 change something like a pretty common thing to just have 0:46:26.600 --> 0:46:31.960 in a creative conversation. And I was terrified to say 0:46:32.000 --> 0:46:36.160 that I needed something or wanted something, and I was 0:46:36.239 --> 0:46:38.160 working up the courage to do this, and this person 0:46:38.320 --> 0:46:39.360 stopped me mid conversation. 0:46:39.440 --> 0:46:41.400 They're like, are you okay? And I was like, what 0:46:41.400 --> 0:46:44.720 do you mean, And they're just like, you're gripping the chair. 0:46:45.000 --> 0:46:47.920 And I didn't even realize I was wrapped around this 0:46:48.000 --> 0:46:50.239 chair and I was white knuckle. I was holding onto 0:46:50.280 --> 0:46:52.319 it for dear life. And they looked at me and 0:46:52.320 --> 0:46:55.319 they said, I'm not going to hit you, like as 0:46:55.360 --> 0:46:55.800 a joke. 0:46:56.040 --> 0:46:58.680 Almost I like slowly sort of released the chair, and 0:46:58.719 --> 0:47:00.520 I realized that I was that. 0:47:00.920 --> 0:47:05.799 Scared to just give an opinion right, And that's when 0:47:05.800 --> 0:47:08.400 I was like, Oh, this is trauma therapy time. And 0:47:08.440 --> 0:47:10.440 I'd had a therapist before then say that I was 0:47:10.520 --> 0:47:13.759 exhibiting symptoms of PTSD. So I started trauma therapy and 0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:17.120 I think the first session, I just started telling her 0:47:17.480 --> 0:47:20.080 some things that had happened to me, and that was 0:47:20.120 --> 0:47:20.920 all she said. 0:47:20.840 --> 0:47:24.319 Was that sounds really awful. That sounds really awful. That 0:47:24.400 --> 0:47:25.080 sounds awful. 0:47:25.840 --> 0:47:28.279 And I think that was one of the first times 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:30.600 i'd spoken to somebody about it, but also spoken to 0:47:30.640 --> 0:47:34.840 somebody that understood and was trauma informed and didn't blame me, 0:47:35.600 --> 0:47:37.600 because I had people ask oh, well, was this just 0:47:37.640 --> 0:47:39.400 a game you guys were playing, or oh was this 0:47:39.440 --> 0:47:41.279 a weird sex thing? Or oh was this like they 0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:43.680 immediately follow up with question, well, why were you drinking? Well, 0:47:43.680 --> 0:47:44.439 why were you doing drugs? 0:47:44.440 --> 0:47:45.000 Why are you doing this? 0:47:45.200 --> 0:47:47.960 And so anything before then it felt very shaming, and 0:47:48.000 --> 0:47:51.279 this was just the first time it was validating, and 0:47:51.320 --> 0:47:54.279 that was the first step for me to start to 0:47:54.440 --> 0:47:56.640 realize maybe it wasn't all my fault. 0:47:56.920 --> 0:47:59.320 And it takes a long time to get there because 0:47:59.480 --> 0:48:01.839 to take that a way that the idea that it 0:48:01.960 --> 0:48:06.720 wasn't your fault is actually a very very tricky psychological process, 0:48:06.800 --> 0:48:10.360 even for a therapist to do, because that's your scaffold 0:48:10.440 --> 0:48:12.680 for so long that if we just pulled down the 0:48:12.719 --> 0:48:15.799 whole scaffold, the facade is going to fall. It's not 0:48:15.880 --> 0:48:17.480 as simple as like, no, this wasn't your fault and 0:48:17.480 --> 0:48:20.040 this is what it was in prison, Like what you 0:48:20.080 --> 0:48:24.000 can't just dismantle realities. That's not how therapy, a psychology, 0:48:24.040 --> 0:48:27.040 any of that work. It's a tentative dance. Somebody dismantled you. 0:48:27.680 --> 0:48:30.560 Putting you back together again is a process too, which 0:48:30.680 --> 0:48:35.840 requires support and compassion and therapeutic love. And in your process, 0:48:35.920 --> 0:48:38.920 not only were you blaming yourself, but you as a 0:48:38.960 --> 0:48:41.600 survivor were being blamed. 0:48:41.200 --> 0:48:42.520 And already been blamed. 0:48:42.600 --> 0:48:44.759 Yeah, so can you break that part because that was 0:48:44.800 --> 0:48:48.719 a very important parallel process that's happening in your Traumay. 0:48:48.840 --> 0:48:49.960 Yeah, Well, while. 0:48:49.719 --> 0:48:52.719 I was being groomed by him, and while our relationship 0:48:52.960 --> 0:48:57.359 was becoming public in the beginning, people's response to it 0:48:57.440 --> 0:49:00.520 was very shaming and very blaming, and all of the 0:49:00.560 --> 0:49:03.799 attention was focused on me, none was on Brian. The 0:49:03.840 --> 0:49:06.839 story everybody was focusing on was like, here's this like 0:49:07.360 --> 0:49:12.120 sort of young Harlot Lolita type home wrecking party girl 0:49:12.239 --> 0:49:18.440 that's come in and ruined everything, and none of the 0:49:18.440 --> 0:49:20.120 focus seemed to be about the fact that I was 0:49:20.120 --> 0:49:22.600 that young and he was so much older. This seemed 0:49:22.640 --> 0:49:26.240 somewhat inappropriate, or that he was the married one cheating 0:49:26.239 --> 0:49:29.520 on his wife. It wasn't that he's doing these things, 0:49:29.520 --> 0:49:32.480 it's that she's doing this to this woman. So I 0:49:32.600 --> 0:49:35.920 was really shocked at the onsought of hate that I got, 0:49:36.080 --> 0:49:40.560 mainly from women. It felt like very scarlet letter, and 0:49:40.920 --> 0:49:43.440 he seemed to sort of kind of get off Scott 0:49:43.480 --> 0:49:47.960 free in that situation. Nobody was posting his picture online 0:49:47.960 --> 0:49:49.160 and writing horror across it. 0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:49.640 That was me. 0:49:50.160 --> 0:49:52.680 The joke was like, well, she's clearly crazy, because you 0:49:52.680 --> 0:49:54.600 would have to be crazy to date somebody like him 0:49:54.640 --> 0:49:59.319 or that looked like him, And that reinforced the idea 0:49:59.440 --> 0:50:01.799 that I had of like, wow, see, like people just 0:50:01.800 --> 0:50:04.360 don't understand. They're saying things about me that aren't true. 0:50:04.760 --> 0:50:07.200 They're saying I'm crazy just because he looks the way 0:50:07.280 --> 0:50:09.080 he does and I look the way that I do. 0:50:09.560 --> 0:50:11.600 And it made me turn on the world even more 0:50:11.680 --> 0:50:14.520 and run even deeper into Brian's arms because it just 0:50:14.640 --> 0:50:17.920 reinforced what he was saying, which was the world's against you. 0:50:17.960 --> 0:50:20.279 It's an unsafe place. The world doesn't understand you, the 0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:23.040 world doesn't understand me. It's me and you against the world. 0:50:23.040 --> 0:50:26.040 In fact, that was the saying that he says to me, 0:50:26.160 --> 0:50:27.880 and that he said to a few of the other girls, 0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:29.760 is together is one against all others. 0:50:29.800 --> 0:50:31.839 It's us and that's it. 0:50:32.080 --> 0:50:36.000 And so as he's telling me these things and saying, 0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:39.320 you can't trust your parents, you can't trust the adults 0:50:39.320 --> 0:50:41.759 in your life because they've been controlling you and they're 0:50:41.760 --> 0:50:43.880 making you miserable, and you need to stay with me 0:50:43.880 --> 0:50:46.279 because I'm the only safe place. And then simultaneously the 0:50:46.320 --> 0:50:49.239 world is coming after me and saying that I'm this 0:50:49.280 --> 0:50:52.279 horrible person that's done this horrible thing by being with 0:50:52.360 --> 0:50:52.840 this person. 0:50:53.040 --> 0:50:54.719 Then yeah, then like where are you going to go? 0:50:55.080 --> 0:50:59.680 Well, he makes himself your only safe space, yes, which 0:50:59.760 --> 0:51:04.200 is so classical a dynamic in these relationships that he 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:08.200 can keep taking you apart, so he's the only one 0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:11.760 who has the instruction manual to put you back together, exactly, 0:51:11.880 --> 0:51:15.640 and that dismantling and then myth that I'm the only 0:51:15.640 --> 0:51:18.000 one who can put you together, and when the world 0:51:18.080 --> 0:51:21.000 is coming at you and you're as young as you were, 0:51:21.520 --> 0:51:25.200 it's as though it's so manifest to me. Speaks also 0:51:25.480 --> 0:51:28.600 to things like patriarchy and the anti woman sentiments that 0:51:28.640 --> 0:51:30.920 cut through our world. That somebody is labeling an eighteen 0:51:31.000 --> 0:51:34.359 or a nineteen year old girl a homewrecker without any 0:51:34.400 --> 0:51:37.000 developmental recognition of what this is. And in fact he's 0:51:37.000 --> 0:51:39.080 the one who made the vow to the wife, not you, 0:51:39.680 --> 0:51:42.560 and you're swept away in something. You know, It's interesting 0:51:42.600 --> 0:51:46.320 because you said early in the relationship, other people around 0:51:46.400 --> 0:51:51.239 you were sounding alarm bells and freaking out, still doing 0:51:51.239 --> 0:51:51.720 his sort. 0:51:51.600 --> 0:51:55.719 Of in gathering the rooming process, right, they were freaking 0:51:55.800 --> 0:51:56.640 up by the age difference. 0:51:56.719 --> 0:51:59.359 Yeah, who were these people? Were these your supports? 0:51:59.400 --> 0:52:04.359 Like, yeah, yeah, my mom, my mom really really had 0:52:04.400 --> 0:52:08.000 a hard time my partner at the time, of course, 0:52:08.880 --> 0:52:12.960 just having a really hard time my agents and publicists. 0:52:12.960 --> 0:52:15.399 I have a different agent and publicist now, So at 0:52:15.400 --> 0:52:20.640 the time everyone just seemed very worried, but nobody was 0:52:20.960 --> 0:52:24.319 really saying we're worried that he's taking advantage of you 0:52:24.880 --> 0:52:26.480 or praying on you. 0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:29.239 Or grooming you. It was just like we're worried you're 0:52:29.280 --> 0:52:29.960 on drugs. 0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:32.799 We're worried, you know, this person's corrupting you or this 0:52:32.880 --> 0:52:35.759 person you know. It was sort of framed in a different. 0:52:35.640 --> 0:52:39.279 Way, and so I just couldn't hear it. It just 0:52:39.320 --> 0:52:42.279 felt like more noise, like more this is just more 0:52:42.320 --> 0:52:43.640 people don't understand. 0:52:43.239 --> 0:52:46.440 Me, right, And because of his look and his persona, 0:52:46.960 --> 0:52:49.280 it was very easy I could see to get swept 0:52:49.280 --> 0:52:52.799 away in that people aren't getting this, which pulled the 0:52:52.880 --> 0:52:57.359 lens away from this process is unhealthy. Yeah, slowly, but surely. 0:52:57.360 --> 0:52:59.840 The way you were being treated was unhealthy. It fostered 0:53:00.160 --> 0:53:04.719 plausible alternative narrative that shielded you from actually doing a 0:53:04.760 --> 0:53:08.440 deeper look at the other problematic dynamics. Correct not unusual 0:53:08.520 --> 0:53:11.520 in a malignant narcissistic relationship at all. I'm going to 0:53:11.560 --> 0:53:14.680 come back to your youth again and again because there's 0:53:14.719 --> 0:53:18.359 a process of individuation that's happening in adolescence. I need 0:53:18.400 --> 0:53:21.399 to separate from the you know, the structures aren't letting 0:53:21.480 --> 0:53:24.200 me grow to the next space. It's a very healthy process. 0:53:24.320 --> 0:53:28.239 Yet the problem is if you're trying to flee the 0:53:28.239 --> 0:53:33.240 nest into a situation where someone that is this toxic 0:53:33.360 --> 0:53:35.880 is on the other side. That's when it's a disaster. 0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:38.279 Yeah, that was part of the grief too, of just 0:53:38.320 --> 0:53:41.680 like I had just gotten out of my mother's house. 0:53:42.680 --> 0:53:44.840 I'd had my driver's license for two years. 0:53:44.960 --> 0:53:48.920 I was just getting out into the world, and the 0:53:48.960 --> 0:53:52.280 first place that I end up was with this person. 0:53:52.600 --> 0:53:53.440 That's devastating. 0:53:53.480 --> 0:53:56.400 How were these other important relationships in your life, like 0:53:56.400 --> 0:54:00.000 your relationships your mom affected by you sort of remaining 0:54:00.120 --> 0:54:02.160 in this relationship with him. 0:54:02.000 --> 0:54:05.160 So she had a nervous breakdown. We were very ameshed, 0:54:05.320 --> 0:54:07.000 and I think that's another one of the reasons why 0:54:07.000 --> 0:54:10.280 I pushed back so hard and why it was easy 0:54:10.320 --> 0:54:14.080 for Brian to sort of isolate me from my parents. 0:54:14.080 --> 0:54:16.719 I was already slightly isolated up from my father because 0:54:16.719 --> 0:54:18.839 he lived it in different states. I love my mother 0:54:18.960 --> 0:54:20.759 very much, and she was a single mom. She did 0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:23.360 her best, but I was ready to have my independence 0:54:23.480 --> 0:54:23.920 for sure. 0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:27.560 And meshed is another one of those words we hear 0:54:28.000 --> 0:54:31.120 very often these days. Let me break down exactly what 0:54:31.239 --> 0:54:34.759 it is and why it is a toxic dynamic and 0:54:34.960 --> 0:54:40.000 Meshman refers to any emotional relationship where emotional boundaries are 0:54:40.040 --> 0:54:45.120 poorly defined can result in emotional over involvement and can 0:54:45.160 --> 0:54:49.879 block emotional autonomy for people in these systems, and mesh 0:54:50.000 --> 0:54:54.560 systems can foster unhealthy dependencies, and people trying to break 0:54:54.600 --> 0:54:58.440 out of in mesh systems may find they overcorrect and 0:54:58.560 --> 0:55:02.400 completely cut themselves out of their family system because it 0:55:02.440 --> 0:55:05.320 feels impossible to find a middle ground. 0:55:05.480 --> 0:55:09.400 I think he saw that, and I think used that 0:55:09.480 --> 0:55:13.640 to his advantage. And she had a really difficult time 0:55:13.680 --> 0:55:15.560 with it. And I know there was at least a 0:55:15.760 --> 0:55:19.080 year while I was with him where her and I 0:55:19.120 --> 0:55:20.879 didn't speak. It was as long as we'd ever gone 0:55:20.880 --> 0:55:25.400 without speaking, and she was really, really, really struggling. But 0:55:25.840 --> 0:55:27.880 I had also felt that sort of kind of shaming 0:55:28.000 --> 0:55:31.759 energy from her, which you know, she's acknowledged and like 0:55:31.920 --> 0:55:35.120 has caught herself a few times realizing like, oh, I'm 0:55:35.160 --> 0:55:35.799 doing the thing. 0:55:36.440 --> 0:55:37.520 I had a conversation with. 0:55:37.480 --> 0:55:41.080 Her once like years later, where I had gotten rooffeed 0:55:41.320 --> 0:55:44.919 or drugged at a bar and I had realized it 0:55:45.160 --> 0:55:47.560 and managed to have my friends get me out of there. 0:55:47.520 --> 0:55:49.840 Before I you know, could move my arms essentially. 0:55:50.080 --> 0:55:51.839 So I was telling her about it, and I was saying, yeah, 0:55:51.880 --> 0:55:55.799 I had one drink and lost control of my arms 0:55:55.800 --> 0:55:57.000 and realizing that there had to have been. 0:55:56.920 --> 0:55:58.799 Something I drink, like, I only had one drink in 0:55:58.880 --> 0:56:01.520 the Her first response, why were you drinking? 0:56:01.840 --> 0:56:03.680 Was a mom, I get that question exactly. 0:56:03.680 --> 0:56:07.600 I understand exactly, and I get it too. But I immediately, because. 0:56:07.200 --> 0:56:09.560 Of all the work that we had done and everything experience, 0:56:09.640 --> 0:56:14.000 I stopped her and I went mom and she realized immediately. 0:56:14.000 --> 0:56:15.759 She was like, oh my god, I just did the thing. 0:56:15.840 --> 0:56:20.160 I just immediately I jumped into that protective mode and 0:56:20.200 --> 0:56:23.440 the societal brainwashing. Yeah, I went straight to the shaming 0:56:23.520 --> 0:56:25.320 part instead of oh my god, I'm so sorry. That 0:56:25.360 --> 0:56:27.359 should never have happened. I don't care how much you drank. 0:56:27.400 --> 0:56:29.400 Nobody has the right to put. 0:56:29.360 --> 0:56:32.600 Drugs in It's interesting you said you were enmeshed with 0:56:32.640 --> 0:56:36.400 your mother. Was that something you did believe to be true? 0:56:36.640 --> 0:56:36.839 Yeah? 0:56:36.840 --> 0:56:39.359 I felt responsible for her. She was a single mom. 0:56:39.480 --> 0:56:40.920 It was really kind of the two of us on 0:56:40.960 --> 0:56:41.359 our own. 0:56:41.520 --> 0:56:44.200 I was working and she was supporting my career and 0:56:44.280 --> 0:56:49.080 seeing her going through the divorce and wanting to take 0:56:49.120 --> 0:56:51.360 care of her. I think I just immediately just jumped 0:56:51.400 --> 0:56:55.759 into a caretaker role and this idea that well, if 0:56:55.800 --> 0:56:57.840 I'm just the perfect child and I never give her 0:56:57.880 --> 0:57:00.239 any problems and she'll be really happy, and I'll put 0:57:00.239 --> 0:57:02.680 my needs aside, and I'll make myself as small as 0:57:02.760 --> 0:57:05.480 possible and as good as possible. 0:57:05.560 --> 0:57:07.880 Make myself as small as possible and as good as possible. 0:57:08.320 --> 0:57:12.160 That dynamic with your mom did that predate this relationship? 0:57:12.200 --> 0:57:16.280 It did. That's interesting because we're talking about vulnerabilities that 0:57:16.480 --> 0:57:19.680 kind of somewhere along the line getting the message that 0:57:19.720 --> 0:57:22.880 Evan needs to make her needs smaller and that's a 0:57:23.000 --> 0:57:28.600 means of support. Right, that's a dangerous precedent. Right, there's 0:57:28.640 --> 0:57:31.360 a million explanations for that. Psychologically, I mean, I'm your 0:57:31.360 --> 0:57:34.160 soul sister, and that I'd have done always that exact 0:57:34.240 --> 0:57:36.400 same thing. So I have an appreciation for that. When 0:57:36.440 --> 0:57:39.840 we cut it up, it's culture, it's how we view women. 0:57:40.080 --> 0:57:41.880 It's actually how a young person keeps a sense of 0:57:41.880 --> 0:57:45.000 control in a relationship. And to me, that's even more 0:57:46.160 --> 0:57:48.760 more terrible that a perpetrator could do this, because they're 0:57:48.960 --> 0:57:52.040 taking advantage of a situation precisely when you needed to 0:57:52.080 --> 0:57:53.040 be protected. 0:57:53.360 --> 0:57:53.800 Correct. 0:57:54.040 --> 0:57:57.160 And I always wondered if by sharing with him these 0:57:57.200 --> 0:57:59.200 things about my home life and the way I felt 0:57:59.440 --> 0:58:01.840 that he did and take note of it and think, well, 0:58:01.880 --> 0:58:04.400 this is like the perfect breeding ground because I've thought 0:58:04.440 --> 0:58:07.880 about that, and you don't know that's what you're doing 0:58:07.920 --> 0:58:08.600 as a parent. 0:58:09.240 --> 0:58:11.360 I don't think any of it was done with malice. 0:58:11.400 --> 0:58:13.760 It just sort of the hand that I think my 0:58:13.800 --> 0:58:16.360 mother and I were both dealt and are able to 0:58:16.400 --> 0:58:18.400 look back on now and go, oh, yeah, this was 0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:20.600 the perfect sort of breeding ground for my voice to 0:58:20.640 --> 0:58:23.160 be very stifled and for me to feel like I 0:58:23.200 --> 0:58:25.560 had to act a certain way to be loved. 0:58:26.080 --> 0:58:27.840 And of course that would. 0:58:27.600 --> 0:58:31.360 Then feed in immediately to this situation with Brian, because 0:58:31.400 --> 0:58:33.800 I was already sort of conditioned to do that, especially 0:58:33.840 --> 0:58:34.640 with an older person. 0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:38.680 The grooming process is an assessment process, right, So it's 0:58:38.680 --> 0:58:40.600 like looking at a plot of land and saying, can 0:58:40.640 --> 0:58:43.800 we build a house here? It's assessing something for its viability. 0:58:44.040 --> 0:58:47.520 Is this ripe territory for me to be able to 0:58:47.600 --> 0:58:49.760 do what I want get what I need? There's no 0:58:49.880 --> 0:58:53.160 recognition of the human being. And then what's so imbalanced 0:58:53.200 --> 0:58:56.840 and asymmetric about the relationship is you're going into it 0:58:56.960 --> 0:59:00.240 thinking it was a get acquainted process. Someone's learning about me. 0:59:00.280 --> 0:59:00.960 I'm learning about that. 0:59:01.080 --> 0:59:02.680 Someone cares about me so much. 0:59:02.800 --> 0:59:03.760 Listening exactly. 0:59:03.840 --> 0:59:06.560 They care about my experience in my inner world. 0:59:06.520 --> 0:59:09.000 And that's powerful, but that's it's asymmetric because they're not 0:59:09.000 --> 0:59:13.200 doing that. They are actually doing assessment and evaluation and 0:59:13.360 --> 0:59:16.320 is this worth the time and trouble. So you're not 0:59:16.480 --> 0:59:19.200 playing the same game. And that's why grooming is so 0:59:19.360 --> 0:59:23.360 dangerous because the other person is also more disempowered and 0:59:23.400 --> 0:59:27.439 they're learning every which way you are disempowered. So that's 0:59:27.480 --> 0:59:30.720 the other treachery. So as you're going through this in 0:59:30.760 --> 0:59:33.920 these four years you're in this relationship, how is your 0:59:33.960 --> 0:59:36.800 relationship with your mother unfolding? And not just your mother 0:59:36.880 --> 0:59:38.000 but other supports. 0:59:38.200 --> 0:59:41.360 I became very angry. I think I got more and 0:59:41.400 --> 0:59:42.600 more angry with. 0:59:42.520 --> 0:59:47.760 My mother because to me, it felt like she was 0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:50.960 losing control and that scared her. 0:59:51.400 --> 0:59:52.600 And the more. 0:59:52.480 --> 0:59:57.160 Autonomy I gained, the more nervous she became. So I 0:59:57.200 --> 0:59:59.440 think that's how I made sense of it, and it 0:59:59.560 --> 1:00:02.280 certainly and how Brian was framing it to me, She's 1:00:02.320 --> 1:00:04.480 controlled you your whole life. She's not able to do 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:06.840 that anymore, so now she has to make it seem 1:00:06.880 --> 1:00:09.520 like you're crazy yep, and that you're in a bad situation, 1:00:09.600 --> 1:00:11.280 and she's going to say bad things about me and 1:00:11.320 --> 1:00:13.200 bad things about you to try to get you to 1:00:13.240 --> 1:00:13.640 leave so. 1:00:13.600 --> 1:00:14.360 That you go back to her. 1:00:14.720 --> 1:00:18.840 I didn't always subscribe to everything that he was saying, 1:00:18.880 --> 1:00:22.000 but I knew that if I pushed back, he. 1:00:22.200 --> 1:00:24.960 Wasn't going to accept it. My relationship with my mom. 1:00:24.880 --> 1:00:27.880 Just slowly eroded because the deeper I got into the 1:00:27.920 --> 1:00:31.880 relationship and the worst things got, the more paniced she got, 1:00:32.040 --> 1:00:33.880 the harder she would kind of come down on me, 1:00:34.560 --> 1:00:37.000 and then the more I would push away, and so 1:00:37.080 --> 1:00:41.200 it just became like this vicious cycle until I finally 1:00:41.920 --> 1:00:44.680 told her that I didn't want to talk to her anymore. 1:00:44.960 --> 1:00:47.200 But Brian was standing right next to me the whole time, 1:00:47.880 --> 1:00:50.680 and he would kind of listen in on my conversations, 1:00:50.720 --> 1:00:52.560 and under the guise of like, I'm going to help 1:00:52.600 --> 1:00:56.120 you navigate this, he was kind of puppeteering it, and 1:00:56.200 --> 1:00:57.760 so like he'd write things down on a piece of. 1:00:57.680 --> 1:00:58.680 Paper for me to say. 1:00:59.000 --> 1:01:01.760 He would record the commations that I was having, and 1:01:01.800 --> 1:01:03.760 so I'm thinking, Wow, this guy's giving to be like 1:01:04.320 --> 1:01:07.400 really good advice, you know, when really he really set 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:09.480 it up so that it came to a head and 1:01:09.520 --> 1:01:11.200 he said, he just said, you know, tell your mother 1:01:11.240 --> 1:01:12.680 you don't wan talk to her anymore, like just be 1:01:12.760 --> 1:01:15.280 done with it, you know, and hang up on her. 1:01:16.080 --> 1:01:16.840 And that's what I did. 1:01:17.440 --> 1:01:21.000 So it was coercive because it was isolating, which is 1:01:21.280 --> 1:01:22.040 always the play. 1:01:22.080 --> 1:01:24.320 Right there, he was always right there over sea. 1:01:24.400 --> 1:01:26.840 See that's the thing. So that was a it's like 1:01:26.880 --> 1:01:30.760 a coerced confession. Plus the isolation, you now have no 1:01:30.880 --> 1:01:34.520 more touchdoones back into reality. He gets to entirely dictate 1:01:34.840 --> 1:01:37.800 the narrative, the reality, everything, that's exactly, And that's every 1:01:37.920 --> 1:01:41.040 narcissistic relationship. I think that we have this depiction of 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:44.480 isolation as being I'm locked off from the world and 1:01:44.520 --> 1:01:46.360 I don't have credit cards, and I don't have a phone, 1:01:46.360 --> 1:01:49.800 and I can't communicate. There's versions of that that certainly happens. 1:01:50.000 --> 1:01:53.040 But isolation is also the seeds that get planted in 1:01:53.080 --> 1:01:57.120 our mind that create doubt about the motivations of the 1:01:57.160 --> 1:01:59.480 people around us. So you may still have contact with them. 1:02:00.560 --> 1:02:04.160 Isn't just a loneness. It is the psychological loss of 1:02:04.200 --> 1:02:08.400 trust in what were traditionally and could still be your supports, 1:02:08.680 --> 1:02:11.200 but they cannot do their puppeteering with those supports. 1:02:11.520 --> 1:02:13.560 Yeah, cults do the same thing, you know, and they're like, 1:02:14.000 --> 1:02:16.520 you know, don't read anything about the cult online, and 1:02:16.600 --> 1:02:18.520 just like society trying to brainwash you and all these things, 1:02:18.560 --> 1:02:20.280 and we've got the answer, and like it's the same 1:02:20.320 --> 1:02:22.960 kind of psychology of up is down and down is 1:02:23.080 --> 1:02:26.360 up and everything that you've known previously was actually the 1:02:26.400 --> 1:02:28.400 thing holding you down. He did the same thing with 1:02:28.440 --> 1:02:30.280 my best friend, the friend that I had had since 1:02:30.280 --> 1:02:31.080 I was eight years old. 1:02:31.320 --> 1:02:33.120 We were living together. He had me kick her out 1:02:33.120 --> 1:02:34.360 of my house. 1:02:34.720 --> 1:02:36.840 He had me go over there, and he sent one 1:02:36.840 --> 1:02:39.040 of his flying monkeys with me, one of his assistants, 1:02:39.400 --> 1:02:42.479 and she recorded everything that I did to show him 1:02:42.520 --> 1:02:44.280 to make sure that I was doing what he had 1:02:44.320 --> 1:02:45.120 asked me to do. 1:02:45.600 --> 1:02:48.560 Flying monkeys is a term we used to describe the 1:02:48.560 --> 1:02:53.000 most toxic enablers of narcissists. Just like the Wicked Witch 1:02:53.040 --> 1:02:56.080 from the Wizard of Oz sent winged monkeys to do 1:02:56.160 --> 1:03:01.160 her bidding, Narcissistic abusers often utilize a there's to carry 1:03:01.160 --> 1:03:06.080 out tasks and help maintain the narciss's overall sense of 1:03:06.200 --> 1:03:07.720 power and control. 1:03:08.040 --> 1:03:11.240 So even when he wasn't with me, he had eyes 1:03:11.280 --> 1:03:13.360 on me or bring some sort of proof that like 1:03:13.800 --> 1:03:16.640 what I was doing was what I was saying, and 1:03:16.920 --> 1:03:18.840 which also made it hard to get out. And so yeah, 1:03:18.840 --> 1:03:21.360 he had me kick her out, and he was watching me. 1:03:21.520 --> 1:03:23.919 Same thing with my brother, like anybody that cared about 1:03:23.960 --> 1:03:27.640 me or anybody that said, hey, I'm worried about those 1:03:27.680 --> 1:03:30.360 people immediately were kicked out. Of course, yeah, they were 1:03:30.400 --> 1:03:34.520 against him and the brainwashing that would take place too, 1:03:34.600 --> 1:03:36.320 Like at first it was under the guys of care, 1:03:36.880 --> 1:03:40.200 and then it became incredibly paranoid and incredibly like these 1:03:40.200 --> 1:03:43.360 people are literally out to get us, right, you know, 1:03:43.560 --> 1:03:46.280 and I have to defend myself against these people, and 1:03:46.760 --> 1:03:49.720 this is like a dangerous situation. And it escalated more 1:03:49.760 --> 1:03:52.479 and more and more to the point where my mom 1:03:52.520 --> 1:03:54.920 and my brother showed up at the house one day 1:03:55.080 --> 1:03:57.680 because I just wasn't returning phone calls and they hadn't 1:03:57.720 --> 1:04:00.760 seen me in a really long time, were getting worried, 1:04:00.760 --> 1:04:02.320 and so I guess they thought. 1:04:02.160 --> 1:04:03.960 You know, we should be able to just go over 1:04:04.000 --> 1:04:04.880 and see her whenever we. 1:04:04.840 --> 1:04:06.400 Want and just knock on the door, like what's going on, 1:04:06.480 --> 1:04:08.800 And so they didn't know that I had just been 1:04:08.880 --> 1:04:11.320 trying to talk him off the ledge for like two days. 1:04:11.560 --> 1:04:13.880 One of the hardest things that he would do is 1:04:14.320 --> 1:04:18.800 essentially isolate you in the house for at least two days, 1:04:18.880 --> 1:04:22.440 just you and him and like a mound of cocaine, 1:04:23.320 --> 1:04:26.720 and he would keep you up and he would stay awake, 1:04:26.800 --> 1:04:30.120 just berating you, telling you everything that was wrong with 1:04:30.160 --> 1:04:31.800 the world, what was wrong with the people around you, 1:04:31.840 --> 1:04:33.640 everything you were doing wrong, all the ways you were 1:04:33.640 --> 1:04:37.000 failing him, you were failing yourself, the suspicions he had 1:04:37.040 --> 1:04:37.640 towards you. 1:04:38.080 --> 1:04:40.240 He would start wrecking the house. And it was just 1:04:40.280 --> 1:04:41.560 like this non. 1:04:41.320 --> 1:04:45.240 Stop onslought of words and monologues and like it was 1:04:45.280 --> 1:04:48.960 just this constant stream of negativity that I felt like 1:04:49.000 --> 1:04:52.280 I couldn't escape and couldn't stop. And that's where like 1:04:52.320 --> 1:04:56.120 the relentless sort of like psychological like brainwashing and abuse 1:04:56.120 --> 1:04:58.880 started taking place where he just wouldn't stop, and he 1:04:58.880 --> 1:05:01.000 wouldn't stop until you you gave him what he wanted, 1:05:01.080 --> 1:05:04.040 or you gave in or you started agreeing with everything 1:05:04.080 --> 1:05:06.160 he was saying, or if you just started doing whatever 1:05:06.200 --> 1:05:07.800 he wanted you to do, or making the phone calls 1:05:07.800 --> 1:05:10.720 he wanted you to make, or it just wouldn't stop otherwise. 1:05:11.240 --> 1:05:13.240 And so I had just kind of talked him off 1:05:13.240 --> 1:05:15.520 the ledge of one of these onsloughts of I don't 1:05:15.520 --> 1:05:17.280 know what else to call it. And so, yeah, my 1:05:17.320 --> 1:05:20.080 mom and my brother showed up to the house, and 1:05:20.200 --> 1:05:25.040 he thought I had called them, and it just restarted 1:05:25.080 --> 1:05:27.840 everything that I had just been through. And I was like, okay, 1:05:28.080 --> 1:05:30.360 that's two more days. And yeah, he started freaking out 1:05:30.400 --> 1:05:32.400 and thinking that it was all like a plot against him, 1:05:32.400 --> 1:05:35.080 sort of pleading and begging like I didn't call anybody, 1:05:35.080 --> 1:05:35.600 didn't do anything. 1:05:35.600 --> 1:05:38.760 I didn't But you know, by then I thinks were 1:05:38.760 --> 1:05:39.200 really bad. 1:05:39.880 --> 1:05:47.800 My conversation will continue after this break, but then that 1:05:47.880 --> 1:05:51.400 series of emotional reactions starts to come out of the perpetrator. 1:05:51.760 --> 1:05:54.680 Keep in mind, we talk about narcissism, we talk about psychopathy, 1:05:54.720 --> 1:05:57.120 and I'm sure you've heard this. Framing of the dark 1:05:57.160 --> 1:06:00.920 tetrad is a really elegant theoretical model developed by a 1:06:00.960 --> 1:06:03.760 guy named Paulus and his colleagues, and it's this idea 1:06:03.840 --> 1:06:10.240 of narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavelianism, and sadism, and Machiavellianism is more 1:06:10.280 --> 1:06:13.840 of an exploitativeness that all hang together, like it's all 1:06:13.880 --> 1:06:17.200 just sort of fits. I would argue paranoia belongs in 1:06:17.240 --> 1:06:20.240 there too. In a relational context, you can see the 1:06:20.280 --> 1:06:23.720 way it creates this kind of this madness in thinking, 1:06:23.760 --> 1:06:28.200 this relentlessness, this exploitativeness, this willingness to take advantage of you, 1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:30.920 to isolate you, to have no empathy, for you, to 1:06:31.000 --> 1:06:34.400 be cold, callous, calculating. You take everything that all of 1:06:34.400 --> 1:06:37.320 these things are because they all work together. Not only 1:06:37.320 --> 1:06:40.760 impossible to maintain a relationship, the other person is always 1:06:40.800 --> 1:06:43.280 going to be harmed, but for you, it was setting 1:06:43.320 --> 1:06:45.800 in these cycles where no one could support you because 1:06:45.800 --> 1:06:48.640 if they did, their support of you was now cascading 1:06:48.640 --> 1:06:49.080 into more. 1:06:49.040 --> 1:06:51.120 Who was an attack? Yes, yeah, it was an attack. 1:06:51.160 --> 1:06:54.600 It was seen as an attack, correct, and that would 1:06:54.640 --> 1:06:57.520 set him off and to also attack me because I 1:06:57.600 --> 1:06:57.920 must have. 1:06:58.360 --> 1:07:01.720 Tripped the alarm, correct the alarm. And doctor Jennifer Fried 1:07:01.800 --> 1:07:05.080 has a model called DARVO, which is deny attack, reverse 1:07:05.120 --> 1:07:08.240 victim offender. Right, that's exactly what you're talking about. Although 1:07:08.560 --> 1:07:11.520 this person's a perpetrator, is coming back to I'm the victim. 1:07:11.520 --> 1:07:14.080 I'm the victim. I'm the victim, and that would be 1:07:14.120 --> 1:07:16.680 a very almost soothing place. And then it puts you 1:07:16.760 --> 1:07:18.960 in the place, put you on your back foot to 1:07:19.040 --> 1:07:22.240 have to sort of fix the situation, and those cycles 1:07:22.280 --> 1:07:24.480 can go on for decades in these relationships. 1:07:24.720 --> 1:07:27.080 Yeah, that was the worst part actually, was the kept 1:07:27.120 --> 1:07:30.200 up for days, the downloading of information is what it 1:07:30.240 --> 1:07:34.520 felt like. Yeah, and just the being worn down to 1:07:34.560 --> 1:07:35.960 the point of submission. 1:07:36.320 --> 1:07:38.840 Like, right, I have a question. 1:07:38.960 --> 1:07:43.760 I've heard different types of narcissists and maybe like different levels, 1:07:43.760 --> 1:07:45.400 but I don't know what your take is on it, 1:07:45.480 --> 1:07:48.520 of like, do you think there's different forms of narcisism, 1:07:48.680 --> 1:07:52.720 different levels of it, like narcissism that can show up 1:07:52.720 --> 1:07:54.880 and maybe be put in check and fix, or like 1:07:55.120 --> 1:07:56.120 narcissism that can't. 1:07:56.160 --> 1:07:59.080 Like, I'm always kind of curious about that. 1:07:59.240 --> 1:08:02.120 I know there's like col narcissism, and there's like milignant narcisism, 1:08:02.160 --> 1:08:07.360 and there's maybe like narcissistic traits, but like, I don't 1:08:07.400 --> 1:08:08.600 know what your take is on that. 1:08:08.880 --> 1:08:12.560 So Narcissism's a personality style, right, And like all personality 1:08:12.600 --> 1:08:15.200 styles that exists on a continuum or a spectrum. Right, 1:08:15.360 --> 1:08:18.559 at the mildest levels, we're talking about someone who's sort 1:08:18.560 --> 1:08:22.920 of annoying, grandiose, a little entitled and selfish. This is 1:08:22.920 --> 1:08:24.519 the person who might make a little bit of a 1:08:24.880 --> 1:08:27.720 persnicketty fit at a restaurant or kind of throw a 1:08:27.760 --> 1:08:29.840 bit of a call me the manager kind of thing, 1:08:29.880 --> 1:08:31.599 like they may not be a good friend, they can't 1:08:31.600 --> 1:08:33.679 put their own stuff aside to be available to someone. 1:08:33.920 --> 1:08:37.000 But it feels like an emotional stuntedness. It certainly doesn't 1:08:37.000 --> 1:08:39.840 feel like a menace or anything like that. Right, Once 1:08:39.840 --> 1:08:42.200 you get into the moderate range of it, of the 1:08:42.640 --> 1:08:45.200 narcissism spectrum, you're really talking about someone where it's not 1:08:45.240 --> 1:08:47.840 healthy to be in a relationship. But it's not terrifying. 1:08:48.160 --> 1:08:48.320 Right. 1:08:48.360 --> 1:08:52.560 It's uncomfortable, it's unsatisfying, it's not deep, it's not mutual. 1:08:53.720 --> 1:08:56.680 You definitely are gaslighted from time to time. You feel manipulated. 1:08:56.720 --> 1:08:59.400 It's not a happy relationship. It felt like this parent 1:08:59.479 --> 1:09:01.320 was never there for you. This is a friend that's 1:09:01.400 --> 1:09:04.320 really self serving and maybe taking money from you. It's 1:09:04.439 --> 1:09:07.040 leveled up when you get to the far end of 1:09:07.080 --> 1:09:09.799 the spectrum. Here's where we're talking about that. It's our tetrack, 1:09:10.120 --> 1:09:13.040 that malignant narcissism. Actually, in my book that's coming out 1:09:13.080 --> 1:09:15.840 next year, I say malignant narcissism is sort of the 1:09:15.960 --> 1:09:18.400 last stop on the train before you veer into psychopathy. 1:09:18.520 --> 1:09:18.800 Station. 1:09:19.360 --> 1:09:22.400 Now here's what happens in malignant narcissism. They're not the same. 1:09:22.680 --> 1:09:26.600 There is a division point between malignant narcissism and psychopathy. 1:09:26.760 --> 1:09:30.080 Narcissistic people at the core of themselves are somewhat anxious, 1:09:30.240 --> 1:09:34.120 They're insecure, they feel inadequate. There's this sort of shame 1:09:34.200 --> 1:09:36.799 that's always bubbling right up at the surface of almost 1:09:37.040 --> 1:09:40.960 being found out. And all of these defenses randiosity and 1:09:41.920 --> 1:09:45.280 intimidation and all those sorts of things draw the person 1:09:45.360 --> 1:09:47.800 draws around them as a suit of armor to keep 1:09:47.800 --> 1:09:51.080 that shame at bay. Controlling and dominating people, that's what 1:09:51.120 --> 1:09:54.240 we see in the malignant narcissism. Malignant narcissism is where 1:09:54.240 --> 1:09:56.880 we see the coercive control. But there's always still that 1:09:56.920 --> 1:09:59.920 sort of that anxiety. There is some fear of consequence. 1:10:00.120 --> 1:10:02.280 Is there's some fear of being found out, and there's 1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:05.760 some level of insecurity. Now when we get to psychopathy, 1:10:05.960 --> 1:10:09.720 there's differences in their brains. There is no sense of remorse. 1:10:10.040 --> 1:10:12.720 Now in a malignant narcissist, this sense of remorse still 1:10:12.720 --> 1:10:15.639 doesn't feel like it's fully authentic. The remorse is more 1:10:15.720 --> 1:10:17.960 like I got caught. Now I've got to pay for it. 1:10:18.080 --> 1:10:21.080 The psychopath almost builds the consequences into sort of as 1:10:21.360 --> 1:10:23.880 part of the model. They're never going to stop psychopathing, 1:10:23.960 --> 1:10:27.320 as it were. And so usually it's a criminality and 1:10:27.360 --> 1:10:30.720 a violation of social norms. We see from a very 1:10:30.760 --> 1:10:34.800 young age five, six, seven, definitely before the age of fifteen, right, 1:10:35.120 --> 1:10:37.599 violating the rights of others from a very young age. 1:10:37.880 --> 1:10:41.240 And then psychopathy. Listen, not all psychopathy is a person 1:10:41.240 --> 1:10:43.960 who's like, you know, an assassin or it's going to 1:10:44.120 --> 1:10:47.720 know at them. They could be just white collar criminals. 1:10:47.760 --> 1:10:50.480 They can not be like they're really confident, they're very authoritative, 1:10:51.680 --> 1:10:54.640 but they're menacing. Yeah, and I think with malignant narcissism, 1:10:54.640 --> 1:10:57.200 the overlap is so much that unless you really spend 1:10:57.240 --> 1:10:59.000 time with them, you may not fully get to that 1:10:59.240 --> 1:11:02.160 sort of that bay, this kind of anxiety and stuff 1:11:02.200 --> 1:11:05.519 like that. Now, what you called a covert narcissist, it's 1:11:05.560 --> 1:11:09.200 probably better captured by the term vulnerable narcissists. Okay, here's 1:11:09.240 --> 1:11:17.200 where we see the resentfulness, sullen, aggrieved, angry, vindictive narcissistic person. 1:11:17.360 --> 1:11:20.160 But the vindictiveness is more like, how come the world 1:11:20.240 --> 1:11:22.479 didn't see that I'm a genius? The grandiose person like 1:11:22.800 --> 1:11:25.080 I'm a genius. Of course, you all see it, right, 1:11:25.320 --> 1:11:28.599 But the vulnerable person's like, how come nothing ever worked 1:11:28.600 --> 1:11:30.559 out my way? Grumble, grumble, grumbled, grumble. 1:11:30.720 --> 1:11:31.280 This is what I have a. 1:11:31.280 --> 1:11:36.240 Hard time describing to people because they think are obvious attention. 1:11:35.880 --> 1:11:36.360 To any people. 1:11:36.360 --> 1:11:40.560 I would say all narcissistic people have some level of covertness. 1:11:40.640 --> 1:11:44.120 And this is a big distinction because a big pushback 1:11:44.160 --> 1:11:47.600 you get is, well, maybe they can't help it, Like 1:11:47.680 --> 1:11:49.160 you want to know how I know they can help 1:11:49.200 --> 1:11:51.320 it because he waited till the guests were gone to 1:11:51.360 --> 1:11:53.479 go off on you. That's exactly right, right, So then 1:11:53.479 --> 1:11:55.799 you get into all these other subtypes. You have communal 1:11:55.880 --> 1:11:59.439 narcissists who get their validation by portraying themselves as somebody 1:11:59.479 --> 1:12:03.400 who's helped full and is saving the world. Your self 1:12:03.479 --> 1:12:08.480 righteous narcissists who are hyper ethical, hyper moral, very judgmental, 1:12:09.040 --> 1:12:11.200 I know better than others, and very harsh to somebody 1:12:11.240 --> 1:12:13.320 who's going through a hard time. Well, if they'd only 1:12:13.360 --> 1:12:15.400 live life the right way, they wouldn't be in this 1:12:15.680 --> 1:12:18.840 cattle of fish, would they? They can feel judge. You 1:12:18.880 --> 1:12:21.320 can see this in religious communities. You'll see it in 1:12:21.360 --> 1:12:25.320 cult leaders because the communal communal meets malignant is your 1:12:25.320 --> 1:12:28.880 cult leader, and what you're describing feels like we're malignant 1:12:28.920 --> 1:12:32.080 means vulnerable. Yeah, that's what we're seeing. And it's a 1:12:32.200 --> 1:12:36.280 very dangerous combination because of the victimhood. Because of that, 1:12:36.400 --> 1:12:39.519 I was never understood by the world. It's like WHOAE 1:12:39.640 --> 1:12:42.920 is me? Nobody wants to appreciate me. That can pull 1:12:42.960 --> 1:12:46.120 for a rescuing vibe from other people, then people are 1:12:46.200 --> 1:12:49.040 drawn into it, and then the malignant piece happens to 1:12:49.120 --> 1:12:50.959 meets the most deadly of the combination. 1:12:51.240 --> 1:12:52.920 Yeah, that all makes so much sense. 1:12:53.320 --> 1:12:55.840 One thing I feel like, because I feel like I've 1:12:55.840 --> 1:13:00.240 had interactions with different shades of narcissism that you're kind 1:13:00.240 --> 1:13:04.120 of describing, but one thing I always one defining characteristic 1:13:04.120 --> 1:13:06.879 that I found in all of them. That was usually 1:13:06.920 --> 1:13:11.080 the moment that I realized maybe they were a narcissist, 1:13:11.479 --> 1:13:15.240 was the feeling of they're in a completely different reality. 1:13:15.760 --> 1:13:18.120 Like there's always a moment where I feel like I'm 1:13:18.160 --> 1:13:21.559 either recalling something that's happened that I remember clear as 1:13:21.600 --> 1:13:25.400 day and they either don't remember it at all, remember 1:13:25.520 --> 1:13:29.400 completely differently, or they're retelling of something or their view 1:13:29.479 --> 1:13:33.720 of the world or situation either just never happened or 1:13:33.760 --> 1:13:34.720 they just refuse. 1:13:34.439 --> 1:13:35.679 To acknowledge it correct. 1:13:35.720 --> 1:13:37.880 And that's where I feel like the gas lighting starts 1:13:37.880 --> 1:13:40.200 to come into play, like because you suddenly are at 1:13:40.240 --> 1:13:42.439 a standoff with a narcissist and you're like, well, this 1:13:42.520 --> 1:13:45.360 is my reality, and they're saying, well, this is my reality, 1:13:45.600 --> 1:13:48.160 and you're either going to join me in my reality 1:13:48.520 --> 1:13:50.840 or I'm going to punish you where gaslight you into 1:13:50.920 --> 1:13:52.280 agreeing or running away. 1:13:52.320 --> 1:13:54.960 So the only way to keep the relationship going is 1:13:55.000 --> 1:13:59.400 to fully surrender to their reality, and over time you 1:13:59.479 --> 1:14:03.160 actually get indoctrinated to believe that is the only reality. 1:14:03.360 --> 1:14:05.479 That's where you see in cults. That's what you see 1:14:05.479 --> 1:14:07.360 in these relationships if they go on long enough. 1:14:07.479 --> 1:14:09.400 Yeah, it becomes a means of survival too. 1:14:09.760 --> 1:14:12.760 And know and to the world the two people, the 1:14:12.880 --> 1:14:16.639 narcissist and the non narcissist, they look like they're in sync, 1:14:17.280 --> 1:14:19.280 not because they're in sync, but because you are now 1:14:19.280 --> 1:14:22.559 in survival mode. And so people are like, oh, they're fine, 1:14:22.600 --> 1:14:25.760 Like and you look for what Thandow saw on you 1:14:26.080 --> 1:14:29.240 that look, there's a look and I mean, I've done 1:14:29.240 --> 1:14:31.000 this long enough, and I'm like, oh, I see the look. 1:14:31.640 --> 1:14:32.160 It's a look. 1:14:32.200 --> 1:14:35.880 It's a little bit far away, it's not fully there. 1:14:36.240 --> 1:14:37.640 And you know, now, all of a sudden, you're in 1:14:37.640 --> 1:14:41.920 the Manchurian candidate. You're like, okay, woo, let's bring you back. 1:14:42.040 --> 1:14:43.920 But it's not as simple as waving your hand over 1:14:43.960 --> 1:14:48.880 someone's eyes. It's about a very slow process of reacquainting 1:14:48.920 --> 1:14:52.120 someone with reality. And some of the work I do 1:14:52.200 --> 1:14:56.080 with survivors is I want you like three times a day, 1:14:56.400 --> 1:14:58.040 am I hungry right now? 1:14:58.320 --> 1:14:58.479 Like? 1:14:58.720 --> 1:15:02.120 Literally, start from basic. It's like plugging into bodily sensation. 1:15:02.360 --> 1:15:02.679 Yep. 1:15:03.479 --> 1:15:07.080 Yes, you have to start from scratch. You have to 1:15:07.080 --> 1:15:08.280 start percratch. That's how it felt. 1:15:08.439 --> 1:15:10.120 Rebuilding myself felt like I had to go all the 1:15:10.120 --> 1:15:11.760 way back to the beginning, to the point I was 1:15:11.800 --> 1:15:13.320 so worn down. 1:15:13.920 --> 1:15:15.439 I had to like relearn how to walk. 1:15:15.600 --> 1:15:18.280 Yes, you are, you're really, it's beyond really. At least 1:15:18.280 --> 1:15:19.679 a baby knows when it's hungry. 1:15:19.840 --> 1:15:21.680 And part of your healing process has to come from 1:15:21.720 --> 1:15:22.040 being in. 1:15:21.960 --> 1:15:24.720 Tune with your body and getting back into it is 1:15:24.760 --> 1:15:26.759 like the first step. It felt like I was watching 1:15:26.800 --> 1:15:30.400 my life from behind a pane of glass, and it 1:15:30.520 --> 1:15:32.720 was absolutely terrifying. 1:15:32.840 --> 1:15:34.639 You know how if you've ever seen an old colonial home, 1:15:34.840 --> 1:15:37.600 they have that letty glass which is like distorty. You know, 1:15:37.640 --> 1:15:42.200 it's not it's not just glass, it's distorty glass where 1:15:42.240 --> 1:15:44.800 you can't quite make out the images on the other side. 1:15:44.800 --> 1:15:46.479 You know that there's a thing back there, and there's 1:15:46.479 --> 1:15:49.080 some light, and there's a plan, maybe there's a person, 1:15:49.640 --> 1:15:53.160 but they're distorted. You're starting from scratch, and you had 1:15:53.160 --> 1:15:55.960 to start from scratch. Oh yeah, no, I mean it 1:15:56.280 --> 1:15:56.959 with everything. 1:15:57.280 --> 1:15:59.599 I felt like I had to relearn empathy too, because 1:16:00.120 --> 1:16:03.519 I think after my experience with Brian, which one of 1:16:03.520 --> 1:16:06.000 the reasons I felt like I had fallen into that 1:16:06.120 --> 1:16:08.479 was because I was overly empathetic, like what you were 1:16:08.479 --> 1:16:10.280 saying of like I see the good in everybody, and 1:16:10.320 --> 1:16:11.879 like I'm going to be the one that stays. 1:16:12.200 --> 1:16:14.519 I'm going to be the one that sacrifices everything for you. 1:16:15.000 --> 1:16:17.120 Maybe empathy is the wrong word, but at the time, 1:16:17.160 --> 1:16:19.599 it felt like when I got out of that situation, 1:16:19.640 --> 1:16:22.240 that empathy was dangerous and I felt like if I 1:16:22.280 --> 1:16:25.200 cared about people, then I was going to become vulnerable. 1:16:25.800 --> 1:16:29.040 And so I think without realizing it, I kind of 1:16:29.160 --> 1:16:33.559 shut that part down when I started disassociating, and I 1:16:33.600 --> 1:16:35.880 couldn't allow myself to care for people in the same 1:16:35.920 --> 1:16:38.599 way because it felt unsafe, And so I also had 1:16:38.640 --> 1:16:41.800 to relearn how to do that because otherwise you repeat 1:16:41.840 --> 1:16:42.519 the cycle right. 1:16:42.560 --> 1:16:45.519 Well, there's also an overcorrection when you come out right 1:16:45.560 --> 1:16:49.639 because right empathy does feel dangerous because you're immediately working 1:16:49.680 --> 1:16:51.439 the angles, like how am I going to be taking 1:16:51.439 --> 1:16:54.720 advantage of? And I tell survivors, I'm not mad at that, 1:16:55.080 --> 1:16:57.519 Let's stay there. This is why it is a slow process, 1:16:57.640 --> 1:17:01.080 that overcorrection that initially happens. We'll see what's happened to me, 1:17:01.160 --> 1:17:03.719 am I now like them. It's not that you lose 1:17:03.760 --> 1:17:07.599 your empathy. It's actually now a period of discernment. It's 1:17:07.640 --> 1:17:10.439 a very slow creeping into what does trust look like? 1:17:10.479 --> 1:17:12.519 And a lot of folks will say this is taking 1:17:12.520 --> 1:17:15.080 me forever, and I'll say, so what if this person 1:17:15.160 --> 1:17:18.400 is able to see your gifts? True love, genuine love 1:17:18.960 --> 1:17:22.200 is when you're the custodian of another person's vulnerabilities, and 1:17:22.240 --> 1:17:24.960 that means there hurts their wounds and their traumas. And 1:17:25.040 --> 1:17:27.320 so if you've been through this and someone meets you 1:17:27.400 --> 1:17:29.960 and in a loving way, and you've been through this, 1:17:30.280 --> 1:17:33.799 then that's going to take a long time. And somebody 1:17:33.840 --> 1:17:35.760 who loves you and cares about you will let it 1:17:35.800 --> 1:17:38.120 take as long as it takes. But when they start 1:17:38.200 --> 1:17:40.240 hitting with you, why am I paying for the sins 1:17:40.240 --> 1:17:41.559 of the person who came before me? 1:17:41.640 --> 1:17:43.639 Yeah, I'm not that person. I've heard that a lot. 1:17:43.760 --> 1:17:46.280 And you say, because the process that brought me to 1:17:46.360 --> 1:17:50.280 you has brought many many wounds but also some gifts. 1:17:50.520 --> 1:17:53.000 That's the nature of trauma exactly. But that's going to 1:17:53.200 --> 1:17:55.640 take a minute, and there is an overcorrection. It's like 1:17:55.680 --> 1:17:58.719 when after you're in a surgery, you're walking very tentatively 1:17:58.760 --> 1:18:00.000 so you don't put too much weight on the line 1:18:00.360 --> 1:18:02.640 exactly right, and then you slowly can put more and 1:18:02.680 --> 1:18:04.519 more weight on the leg that you don't go run 1:18:04.560 --> 1:18:06.120 on it right away. And if we can do that 1:18:06.160 --> 1:18:08.080 for a leg, we can do it for our soul. 1:18:08.680 --> 1:18:11.440 M h. Yeah. 1:18:11.479 --> 1:18:13.680 Whenever I had like a new partner, I would always say, like, 1:18:14.040 --> 1:18:16.040 you have to approach me like you would a shelter dog. 1:18:17.560 --> 1:18:21.599 You know, when you first adopt a dog and they 1:18:21.640 --> 1:18:22.880 tell you we don't know what happened to them, but 1:18:22.960 --> 1:18:24.599 we know something happened. They're very afraid of people, they're 1:18:24.680 --> 1:18:26.439 very afraid of touch, they're afraid to come out of 1:18:26.520 --> 1:18:29.479 their cage. And you see like all these success stories 1:18:29.520 --> 1:18:32.160 online of people just taking it really slow with the dog. 1:18:32.200 --> 1:18:34.680 Every day, the bowl gets a little closer every day, 1:18:34.800 --> 1:18:36.880 maybe they get the leash on the day, maybe they 1:18:36.920 --> 1:18:39.240 get a little pet here and there, and then like 1:18:39.360 --> 1:18:41.800 over time and yeah, over about a year, suddenly the 1:18:41.840 --> 1:18:44.720 dog's outside running around, playing, licking their. 1:18:44.680 --> 1:18:45.760 Owner's face and all these things. 1:18:45.800 --> 1:18:47.360 But it takes time, and it takes time to build 1:18:47.400 --> 1:18:50.360 that trust because something has happened to that dog. And 1:18:50.439 --> 1:18:53.599 for some reason, we're like more active to believe it. 1:18:54.240 --> 1:18:55.559 About dogs than people. 1:18:56.120 --> 1:18:59.280 Yeah, and it was a public story, so you continue 1:18:59.320 --> 1:19:03.519 to be castigated and criticized and abused from that large, 1:19:03.560 --> 1:19:05.439 ephemeral internety space of all. 1:19:05.479 --> 1:19:08.160 Oh yeah, the Suria campaign is still in full effect, 1:19:08.200 --> 1:19:11.760 and it's even scarier now. It's like everybody I talked 1:19:11.760 --> 1:19:14.160 to is a potential person that could take advantage of 1:19:14.200 --> 1:19:17.320 me or use me, or use something against me or whatever, 1:19:17.760 --> 1:19:20.360 and it is really scary, and yes, that does continue 1:19:20.400 --> 1:19:24.000 to happen. When I decided to do this, I had 1:19:24.040 --> 1:19:26.840 to make peace with the idea that a lot of 1:19:26.840 --> 1:19:28.519 things could go away and I might have to be 1:19:28.560 --> 1:19:30.559 okay with that, and a lot of the things that 1:19:30.600 --> 1:19:32.240 could go away are things that I feel like the 1:19:32.320 --> 1:19:36.320 narcissist holds near and dear, and I kind of told 1:19:36.320 --> 1:19:37.639 myself that I was just going to have to let 1:19:37.640 --> 1:19:42.160 things go, like reputation and money and career and public 1:19:42.200 --> 1:19:44.439 perception and all of these things that, like, I know 1:19:44.680 --> 1:19:47.160 to them like these are the worst things that you 1:19:47.160 --> 1:19:48.800 can lose or that I can take away from you. 1:19:48.880 --> 1:19:50.920 And for me, I just immediately kind of said, like, 1:19:51.080 --> 1:19:52.960 I think one of my only defenses here is going 1:19:53.000 --> 1:19:55.080 to be letting go of any attachment I have to 1:19:55.120 --> 1:19:58.639 these things, because then I don't really know what they're 1:19:58.640 --> 1:20:01.479 going to have over me anymore. I don't know if 1:20:01.520 --> 1:20:03.040 that's the right way to go about it or not, 1:20:03.160 --> 1:20:06.120 but it felt like the only way to suspend that 1:20:06.240 --> 1:20:08.479 kind of fear was just saying, like, Okay, I have 1:20:08.520 --> 1:20:10.320 a backup plan in case all of this goes away, 1:20:10.840 --> 1:20:12.479 and I can't be afraid of these things, and I 1:20:12.520 --> 1:20:14.679 can't be afraid of the lies people are going to tell, 1:20:14.960 --> 1:20:18.160 or the smear campaigns or the assassinations on my character 1:20:18.439 --> 1:20:21.599 because a that happens to every survivor that comes forward 1:20:21.640 --> 1:20:23.960 against a powerful person or a person. 1:20:23.680 --> 1:20:25.880 That was beloved or has a following or whatever. It's 1:20:25.880 --> 1:20:28.479 gotten a lot worse with the Internet. I don't want 1:20:28.479 --> 1:20:29.639 to say worse, but different. 1:20:29.640 --> 1:20:31.960 There's like different plans of attacks because it's always been 1:20:32.160 --> 1:20:34.240 pretty bad at least I'm not getting the bottomized now 1:20:34.360 --> 1:20:36.120 or something, you know, so I don't even want to 1:20:36.120 --> 1:20:38.479 say worse, but there's just different kind of forms of 1:20:38.520 --> 1:20:40.040 the same thing. It's like you get stone in the 1:20:40.080 --> 1:20:43.160 town square or you get called crazy stereocille bottomized, and 1:20:43.200 --> 1:20:45.160 now it's like I can't even go online anymore, Like 1:20:45.200 --> 1:20:46.200 I can't, you can't. 1:20:46.240 --> 1:20:49.720 I've lost that privilege. That's done, Like my social media 1:20:49.840 --> 1:20:51.120 days are completely over. 1:20:51.479 --> 1:20:54.960 There's this quote I love that somebody said, whenever somebody 1:20:54.960 --> 1:21:00.400 speaks out against abuse, eventually your tone is exaggerated. Your 1:21:00.439 --> 1:21:03.000 tone being exaggerated is such a big thing. They take 1:21:03.040 --> 1:21:05.519 things you've said out of context and they try to 1:21:05.600 --> 1:21:08.720 like shame and scare you into silence. And that's what 1:21:08.760 --> 1:21:11.639 I feel like I'm experiencing now, and it's working because 1:21:11.720 --> 1:21:15.360 I've wanted to talk less and less and I've censored 1:21:15.400 --> 1:21:17.960 myself more and more until the point where I'm almost 1:21:17.960 --> 1:21:20.519 non existent on social media anymore inside of just like 1:21:20.880 --> 1:21:22.840 maybe here's a show or a job that I'm doing, 1:21:22.920 --> 1:21:24.519 but other than that, like I don't feel like I 1:21:24.520 --> 1:21:25.839 can share my opinion anymore. 1:21:25.880 --> 1:21:28.840 And so I feel like that tactic absolutely is working. 1:21:28.880 --> 1:21:31.800 And when you say that tactic free, that tactic is 1:21:31.840 --> 1:21:32.519 working for whom. 1:21:32.800 --> 1:21:34.800 Well, I do feel like that the media can be 1:21:35.120 --> 1:21:38.000 complicit in some ways. I think Roon and Pharaoh spoke 1:21:38.120 --> 1:21:39.680 about this a bit in Catch and. 1:21:39.680 --> 1:21:41.360 Kill and that it wasn't just about Weinstein. 1:21:41.439 --> 1:21:44.640 It was also sort of uncovering like a mass conspiracy 1:21:44.680 --> 1:21:48.400 to protect predators and high profile I want I agree 1:21:48.439 --> 1:21:50.400 with that, and I think that is absolutely a thing. 1:21:50.680 --> 1:21:53.639 But you said something very important, which was me having 1:21:53.680 --> 1:21:57.840 to sort of give myself to detach from things that 1:21:57.920 --> 1:22:00.360 might have been important to me if I I'm either 1:22:00.360 --> 1:22:03.080 going to speak out or show up the way I 1:22:03.120 --> 1:22:05.720 want in this situation. So you spoke out. What was 1:22:05.760 --> 1:22:07.479 his reaction to you speaking out. 1:22:07.640 --> 1:22:12.320 Brian's Well, first, I was speaking out without naming him 1:22:12.479 --> 1:22:17.120 that he was trying to say with other people in 1:22:17.160 --> 1:22:19.600 my life and kind of like, oh yeah, well, she 1:22:19.720 --> 1:22:22.040 told me about so and so, or it must have 1:22:22.080 --> 1:22:25.000 been this person or that person. And then he started 1:22:25.000 --> 1:22:28.320 getting questioned about it because people were putting two or 1:22:28.320 --> 1:22:31.400 two together and ended up hanging up on the on 1:22:31.439 --> 1:22:34.160 the interviewer because they were getting a little too close, 1:22:34.439 --> 1:22:36.320 and that sort of caused a bit of an uper 1:22:36.479 --> 1:22:38.200 So I know he was just trying to kind of 1:22:38.720 --> 1:22:41.479 downplay it at first, and then we, you know, me 1:22:41.640 --> 1:22:46.360 and a few other survivors came forward, and the first 1:22:46.400 --> 1:22:50.879 thing I noticed was he started setting up the narrative 1:22:51.240 --> 1:22:53.120 with some of the words he used, like these are 1:22:53.160 --> 1:22:56.559 horrible distortions of reality. And whatever I've done, it's been 1:22:56.640 --> 1:22:59.160 with you know, like minded partners or things like that. 1:22:59.200 --> 1:23:02.720 So I'm immediately understand like, Okay, he's already setting this 1:23:02.880 --> 1:23:06.519 up that these were all consensual interactions and we just 1:23:06.560 --> 1:23:10.200 maybe misunderstood or got in over our head. And because 1:23:10.240 --> 1:23:13.720 he's a powerful man who has built a career off 1:23:13.760 --> 1:23:16.920 of being shocking and disturbing, is going to get away 1:23:16.960 --> 1:23:20.120 with it because his right to being weird and kinky 1:23:20.160 --> 1:23:22.759 will get defended in court and we will get shamed 1:23:22.800 --> 1:23:25.560 forever even stepping foot in there or participating. 1:23:26.040 --> 1:23:28.120 And so it's been used a million times. 1:23:28.840 --> 1:23:32.839 Hours after Evan publicly named Brian as her alleged abuser, 1:23:33.479 --> 1:23:38.080 he issued the following written statement. Obviously, my art and 1:23:38.160 --> 1:23:41.719 my life have long been magnets for controversy, but these 1:23:41.760 --> 1:23:45.800 recent claims about me are horrible distortions of reality. My 1:23:45.920 --> 1:23:51.120 intimate relationships have always been entirely consensual with like minded partners, 1:23:51.400 --> 1:23:56.440 regardless of how and why others are choosing to misrepresent 1:23:56.560 --> 1:23:59.120 the past. That is the truth. 1:23:59.520 --> 1:24:00.759 But there were. 1:24:00.680 --> 1:24:02.400 People popping up on the Internet that were saying there 1:24:02.400 --> 1:24:04.280 were miners, and I was like, well, how are you 1:24:04.280 --> 1:24:06.400 going to defend that? You know, you can't say that 1:24:06.720 --> 1:24:08.920 those things were consensual, And more stories. 1:24:08.600 --> 1:24:10.760 Started popping up, and slowly. 1:24:11.200 --> 1:24:14.000 He stopped talking. He just stopped talking completely. And now 1:24:14.040 --> 1:24:17.040 his lawyer just kind of says things for him. 1:24:17.120 --> 1:24:18.559 He's kind of fallen away. 1:24:19.240 --> 1:24:21.679 And I think it's the only reason why it's more 1:24:21.680 --> 1:24:23.680 disturbing and scary right now, is I think we're at 1:24:23.720 --> 1:24:24.840 a weird precipice. 1:24:25.200 --> 1:24:25.240 No. 1:24:25.640 --> 1:24:27.080 Absolutely, people are very scared. 1:24:27.240 --> 1:24:28.519 Yeah, I really really scary. 1:24:28.640 --> 1:24:32.200 First of all, when a person is in a groomed relationship, 1:24:32.439 --> 1:24:35.600 there's never consent. No, it's not possible for there to 1:24:35.640 --> 1:24:39.040 be consent at any point in time, because it was 1:24:39.200 --> 1:24:42.559 how the developmental structure of the relationship, right, So no 1:24:42.640 --> 1:24:45.479 consent ever, so let's just lift that right from them. 1:24:45.479 --> 1:24:48.439 When there's menace at any point in a relationship, that 1:24:48.560 --> 1:24:51.000 kind of gaslighting, the consent must left the station a 1:24:51.000 --> 1:24:54.200 long time ago. Then we forget that. While these feel 1:24:54.200 --> 1:24:59.760 like individual relationships, these are societal issues. Like patriarchy, like 1:25:00.240 --> 1:25:03.920 hierarchy is like oppression in all the structures, which means 1:25:03.960 --> 1:25:06.719 you have a perma perpetrator. Now, okay, they're not gonna 1:25:06.760 --> 1:25:10.160 not do this. This is how they wrecking crewe themselves 1:25:10.160 --> 1:25:13.320 through life. I mean, every day people come at me, 1:25:13.400 --> 1:25:16.439 you are a cruel person. How dare she? She's going 1:25:16.439 --> 1:25:18.760 after people with the personality style. Call it whatever you 1:25:18.760 --> 1:25:20.160 want to call it, Give it a different name, give 1:25:20.160 --> 1:25:22.680 it another damn name I call That's why I use antagonism. 1:25:22.760 --> 1:25:24.760 That seems to be a little bit more palatable. But 1:25:24.840 --> 1:25:28.000 it's a style that is resistant to change. And once 1:25:28.040 --> 1:25:30.400 they're done with you, they go on to the next 1:25:30.520 --> 1:25:33.200 ext and the next and the next, And there is 1:25:33.240 --> 1:25:36.559 no YELP for people. No, there is no review guys. 1:25:36.840 --> 1:25:39.439 No. And that's why I don't want to speak for 1:25:39.439 --> 1:25:41.840 all survivors. But that is why I felt like I 1:25:41.840 --> 1:25:44.519 had to come forward. It wasn't to I mean a 1:25:44.560 --> 1:25:46.360 lot of people think this narrative. 1:25:47.400 --> 1:25:49.400 It bothers me that like all we. 1:25:49.320 --> 1:25:52.840 Want is like bloody revenge or like it's about hurting 1:25:52.920 --> 1:25:55.479 the person that hurt us or sticking it to them 1:25:55.600 --> 1:26:00.400 or whatever, and it's like, no, it's us realizing Look, 1:26:00.560 --> 1:26:02.880 what they did to me was awful and I hated it, 1:26:02.920 --> 1:26:04.280 but I was ready to go to my grave with 1:26:04.320 --> 1:26:05.800 it because I thought it was just me. But when 1:26:05.840 --> 1:26:07.599 I realized there was a pattern and it was happening 1:26:07.640 --> 1:26:09.600 to other people exactly the same way was happening to me, 1:26:09.600 --> 1:26:12.519 and it was going to keep happening. Like that's when 1:26:12.560 --> 1:26:14.680 you take to social media. Law enforcement can help me. 1:26:14.680 --> 1:26:16.320 Okay, I don't know how else to protect people. 1:26:16.600 --> 1:26:18.400 I don't know how else to protect people or warned 1:26:18.400 --> 1:26:21.280 people except to put my ass on the line. 1:26:21.400 --> 1:26:23.920 That's right and that, but that took a toll on 1:26:24.000 --> 1:26:26.040 to you. That took a toll on you. So, speaking 1:26:26.080 --> 1:26:28.160 of the toll on you, how is your healing going. 1:26:28.160 --> 1:26:31.320 There's good days and bad days. It's still really hard 1:26:32.200 --> 1:26:34.800 some days, like everything feels really normal, and then you 1:26:34.800 --> 1:26:37.519 get hit with another legal attack or an attack on 1:26:37.560 --> 1:26:39.519 your character in the press or something coming and you're 1:26:39.600 --> 1:26:42.559 just like, oh, right, I'm still in tango with this person. 1:26:43.120 --> 1:26:45.240 I don't think this person's ever going away until they 1:26:45.240 --> 1:26:47.840 pass away. Honestly, I don't know how they're ever going 1:26:47.920 --> 1:26:50.639 to stop. I agree, that's an awful feeling because it's 1:26:50.680 --> 1:26:52.639 like I've been going through this half of my life. 1:26:52.720 --> 1:26:55.720 I was eighteen when it started. I'll be thirty six 1:26:55.760 --> 1:27:00.320 this year, and I'm still going through it. And that's a. 1:27:00.240 --> 1:27:01.320 Bummer to say the least. 1:27:01.560 --> 1:27:04.600 But my nervous system for the first time, feels like 1:27:04.680 --> 1:27:07.000 it's calmer than it's ever been. But I've had to 1:27:07.040 --> 1:27:09.640 make decisions for my life so that I can be 1:27:09.680 --> 1:27:12.519 an optimal health and that I can thrive and I 1:27:12.520 --> 1:27:14.680 can be happy and I can be clear headed. And 1:27:14.720 --> 1:27:18.160 one of the hardest decisions was leaving Los Angeles because 1:27:18.200 --> 1:27:20.920 this is where my child is and I have to 1:27:20.960 --> 1:27:24.400 make this impossible decision of do I stay and stay 1:27:24.400 --> 1:27:27.479 in fight or flight and have my nervous system always 1:27:27.479 --> 1:27:30.479 be overacting and always looking over my shoulder. And believe me, 1:27:30.520 --> 1:27:32.840 I tried, I really really tried to hunker down, and 1:27:32.880 --> 1:27:34.760 I fought as long as I possibly could. I was 1:27:34.840 --> 1:27:36.760 just like, I don't know how to be the best 1:27:36.880 --> 1:27:40.200 version of myself and to thrive and to fully heal 1:27:40.240 --> 1:27:42.680 if I don't leave this place. That was one of 1:27:42.680 --> 1:27:45.640 the hardest moments of realization for me, of just like, 1:27:45.960 --> 1:27:49.439 the only way I can be the best mother is 1:27:49.439 --> 1:27:53.240 if I leave, and that's been the hardest. Of course, 1:27:53.280 --> 1:27:55.240 I still have a wonderful relationship with my child and 1:27:55.280 --> 1:27:57.519 I always will and I will always remain connected with 1:27:57.560 --> 1:27:59.559 them and I will see them, but they can't live 1:27:59.600 --> 1:28:00.160 with me all the time. 1:28:00.200 --> 1:28:02.360 We have to live in different states now, and I don't. 1:28:02.120 --> 1:28:04.560 Feel like I had a lot of understanding and compassion 1:28:04.640 --> 1:28:09.000 in that area. But all that being said, once I 1:28:09.080 --> 1:28:11.639 again just had to think about the things I could 1:28:11.680 --> 1:28:14.320 control and make peace with the things that I couldn't. 1:28:14.880 --> 1:28:17.320 Forgive myself for the things I couldn't control, or the 1:28:17.320 --> 1:28:19.519 things I felt like I couldn't overcome or wasn't strong 1:28:19.600 --> 1:28:21.080 enough to Overgod be like, no, you know what, A 1:28:21.080 --> 1:28:23.120 lot of this isn't your fault, and all you can 1:28:23.160 --> 1:28:25.240 do is the best that you can with the situation 1:28:25.320 --> 1:28:27.519 that you have. Be your best self, be the best 1:28:27.560 --> 1:28:29.479 mom you can be, and that's being as healthy and 1:28:29.560 --> 1:28:32.320 happy and also showing my child that you don't have 1:28:32.360 --> 1:28:35.240 to stay in unhappy and unsafe situations. I want them 1:28:35.240 --> 1:28:38.040 to be happy in their best selves too, so I 1:28:38.080 --> 1:28:40.479 hope one day they understand why I felt like I 1:28:40.520 --> 1:28:44.000 couldn't stay. I know a lot of people have been 1:28:44.000 --> 1:28:45.920 in the same situation, and my heart goes out to 1:28:45.920 --> 1:28:46.280 all of them. 1:28:46.680 --> 1:28:48.000 An awful position to be in. 1:28:48.439 --> 1:28:51.760 However, the other side of the coin, I'm happier than 1:28:51.760 --> 1:28:55.639 I've maybe ever been in my life. And that took 1:28:55.720 --> 1:28:58.559 a lot of work, a lot of consistency, because for 1:28:58.600 --> 1:29:02.280 so long you're chipping your trauma. You're trying to relearn 1:29:02.640 --> 1:29:05.400 how to move through the world in a healthy way 1:29:05.479 --> 1:29:08.720 and reparent yourself and make sense of your life. And 1:29:09.120 --> 1:29:11.519 it feels like, when am I going to see the results? 1:29:11.560 --> 1:29:13.479 You know, when are things going to start feeling normal? 1:29:13.520 --> 1:29:15.759 When it's going to stop feeling like a constant battle, 1:29:15.800 --> 1:29:20.080 a constant fight. I'm constantly having to monitor myself. And 1:29:20.280 --> 1:29:23.120 now I feel like, you know, my grip is loosening 1:29:23.160 --> 1:29:25.960 a little bit, and I feel relaxed in my body 1:29:26.000 --> 1:29:29.360 and in myself. I trust myself, I trust my instincts, 1:29:29.920 --> 1:29:31.439 and I think a lot of that came from being 1:29:31.439 --> 1:29:34.800 alone really really hard to do, and really sitting with 1:29:34.840 --> 1:29:38.799 myself and the uncomfortability, in the loneliness, in the grief 1:29:39.240 --> 1:29:42.120 and wading through it and just letting it take as 1:29:42.160 --> 1:29:44.439 long as it needs to take. And now I do 1:29:45.000 --> 1:29:47.679 feel a sense of peace and a sense of calm 1:29:47.960 --> 1:29:52.960 and capable of being in happy, healthy relationships. And I'm 1:29:53.000 --> 1:29:56.680 a better mom and I'm. 1:29:55.720 --> 1:29:56.880 More present with people. 1:29:56.960 --> 1:29:59.040 I feel like I can be there for people more 1:29:59.240 --> 1:30:01.920 like I'm not so caught up in all of my 1:30:02.080 --> 1:30:04.839 stuff that i have nothing to give anybody else because I'm. 1:30:04.640 --> 1:30:06.120 Just trying to survive, you know. 1:30:06.240 --> 1:30:09.000 And so like feel like I'm at sort of the 1:30:09.040 --> 1:30:10.360 light at the end of the tunnel, and I armed 1:30:10.400 --> 1:30:14.040 myself with enough tools now that like I know how 1:30:14.080 --> 1:30:17.200 resilient I am, and like, you know, I think they 1:30:17.200 --> 1:30:19.080 say there's like post traumatic stress, but there's also post 1:30:19.080 --> 1:30:20.679 traumatic resilience. 1:30:20.360 --> 1:30:23.160 But I definitely feel like that. And now all I want. 1:30:23.040 --> 1:30:26.640 To do is what you're doing, which is now I 1:30:26.720 --> 1:30:29.400 just want to try to help other people and draw 1:30:29.439 --> 1:30:31.759 attention to it and just keep learning. 1:30:32.000 --> 1:30:34.880 But I just want to kind of hide, like I 1:30:35.120 --> 1:30:35.920 that's understandable. 1:30:36.080 --> 1:30:37.800 It's funny because some of the naysayers, they'll say, like, 1:30:37.800 --> 1:30:39.600 whe they're just doing this for money and attention, And 1:30:39.600 --> 1:30:41.800 it's funny because like, I'm hemorrhaging money and all I 1:30:41.800 --> 1:30:42.320 want to do. 1:30:42.320 --> 1:30:46.320 Is hide, hide. 1:30:45.040 --> 1:30:48.599 And it's made me pay more attention to the things 1:30:48.600 --> 1:30:51.920 that I really feel like madder in life, which are 1:30:52.240 --> 1:30:56.920 safety and connection and love and family and like just 1:30:57.000 --> 1:31:00.000 kind of a simple life. So yeah, my healing journey 1:31:00.160 --> 1:31:02.760 is good. There's still really difficult things, but I do 1:31:02.800 --> 1:31:04.360 feel like I'm doing my best and I do feel 1:31:04.360 --> 1:31:08.120 like I'm happy. I'm like, yeah, feeling safe in my 1:31:08.160 --> 1:31:08.719 body again. 1:31:08.800 --> 1:31:12.160 How would you compare how you were doing before speaking 1:31:12.360 --> 1:31:13.880 out versus your life now? 1:31:13.920 --> 1:31:16.040 I felt like a prisoner in my body and in 1:31:16.080 --> 1:31:18.280 my mind, Yeah, it just felt like I was a 1:31:18.320 --> 1:31:22.120 prisoner of my trauma, my nervous system, my PTSD, and 1:31:22.560 --> 1:31:25.240 it just felt like an avalanche and a deep hole that. 1:31:25.200 --> 1:31:26.360 I was never going to get out of. 1:31:26.560 --> 1:31:30.600 And I felt crazy, like you're watching the world go 1:31:30.720 --> 1:31:32.599 on without you, and you're being left behind, and you're 1:31:32.680 --> 1:31:34.920 kind of left questioning like why did all these things 1:31:34.960 --> 1:31:36.599 have to happen? Why did this have to be harder. 1:31:36.640 --> 1:31:38.479 Why do I have to sort through all of this now? 1:31:38.520 --> 1:31:40.559 And why am I left with the wreckage? And why 1:31:40.600 --> 1:31:42.880 does nobody believe me? It's one of the reasons why 1:31:43.360 --> 1:31:46.439 one of my triggers is calling me crazy, of course, 1:31:47.000 --> 1:31:49.479 because I feel like I've been made to feel that 1:31:49.520 --> 1:31:50.240 way for so long. 1:31:50.320 --> 1:31:53.719 It was horrifying. I couldn't sleep, I would act out. 1:31:54.200 --> 1:31:56.519 I definitely like was in a bit of like a 1:31:56.560 --> 1:31:58.560 thrill seeking phase for a second, especially when I was 1:31:58.600 --> 1:32:00.120 really disassociated in the beginning. 1:32:00.160 --> 1:32:05.320 It was just like, how can I feel something? So 1:32:05.400 --> 1:32:06.679 I was a little all over the place. 1:32:06.800 --> 1:32:09.920 I think it definitely hurt my job. I wasn't always 1:32:09.960 --> 1:32:11.960 able to show up for work. I would get sick 1:32:12.160 --> 1:32:14.400 a lot easier. Some days I would show up to 1:32:14.400 --> 1:32:16.360 do a photo shoot and just being in from the 1:32:16.360 --> 1:32:18.240 camera was too triggering, and like I would just like 1:32:18.280 --> 1:32:18.920 break down in. 1:32:18.960 --> 1:32:19.960 Tears and have to leave. 1:32:20.040 --> 1:32:22.800 It's a hard thing to explain to people, and it's 1:32:23.120 --> 1:32:27.760 hard to keep your reputation intact when you're going through 1:32:27.800 --> 1:32:29.920 that and people don't know what's happening. They just think 1:32:29.920 --> 1:32:32.920 you're unreliable or I felt like that for a while, 1:32:32.920 --> 1:32:35.120 and I think I think I do still fight against 1:32:35.120 --> 1:32:36.080 some of that in the industry. 1:32:36.160 --> 1:32:39.000 I think we need a more trauma informed world. And 1:32:39.120 --> 1:32:43.639 to the radical acceptance is the radical acceptance these folks 1:32:43.640 --> 1:32:46.920 with these personalities don't change, and these relationships don't change. 1:32:46.920 --> 1:32:49.320 But the radical acceptance is also about ourselves, as I've 1:32:49.360 --> 1:32:53.200 been through something and I need to hold myself close, 1:32:53.320 --> 1:32:56.080 I need to care for myself. Everyone who's ever gone 1:32:56.120 --> 1:32:59.320 through one of these relationships has a very similar set 1:32:59.320 --> 1:33:02.759 of reactions. And you know why, because that's how human 1:33:02.800 --> 1:33:07.200 beings react when the reality is stolen and they are invalidated, 1:33:07.520 --> 1:33:10.880 and they are not seen, and they are exploited, and 1:33:10.920 --> 1:33:15.320 they are taking advantage of a finite, consistent set of reactions. 1:33:15.400 --> 1:33:17.760 And since that's the case and it's happening to all 1:33:17.800 --> 1:33:21.320 of us, you can keep calling people crazy all you want, 1:33:21.360 --> 1:33:23.799 for as long as you want. It's just not true. 1:33:24.080 --> 1:33:25.080 It's utter devastation. 1:33:25.240 --> 1:33:27.559 It's utter devastation does kill people. And I've had far 1:33:27.600 --> 1:33:30.439 too many documented cases of people sharing me, people who 1:33:30.520 --> 1:33:33.200 have ended their lives, especially people who don't have a 1:33:33.200 --> 1:33:34.640 lot of support exactly. 1:33:34.760 --> 1:33:36.960 And that's why I consider myself one of the lucky ones. 1:33:36.960 --> 1:33:39.120 And I almost died multiple times I've tried to kill 1:33:39.120 --> 1:33:40.080 myself twice. 1:33:40.479 --> 1:33:43.160 It could have easily been me, and I have much. 1:33:43.080 --> 1:33:45.400 More privileged than things at my disposal. And so that's 1:33:45.439 --> 1:33:48.280 when that's something so terrifying to me to think about, 1:33:48.680 --> 1:33:50.360 how do people fight this without money? 1:33:50.479 --> 1:33:52.439 How do people fight this without mental health support? 1:33:52.560 --> 1:33:52.640 They? 1:33:52.720 --> 1:33:53.960 How do people survive this? 1:33:54.320 --> 1:33:56.960 They you know, there's people who are suffering, struggling out 1:33:57.000 --> 1:33:59.360 of financial necessity, they have to stay. Out of cultural 1:33:59.600 --> 1:34:02.240 necess they have to say, out of safety necessity, they 1:34:02.320 --> 1:34:04.759 have to say stay. There's not a day you could 1:34:04.760 --> 1:34:07.360 not open up the news somewhere and find out that 1:34:07.479 --> 1:34:11.080 one more person was killed because they tried to leave 1:34:11.720 --> 1:34:12.599 an abusive relationship. 1:34:12.640 --> 1:34:13.200 They tried to leave. 1:34:13.280 --> 1:34:16.880 People don't get it. And even it's not just. 1:34:16.439 --> 1:34:18.120 You're assuming everybody has a place. 1:34:17.880 --> 1:34:20.400 To go, No they not only do they not? Did 1:34:20.439 --> 1:34:22.920 they not have a place to go? Somebody's done such 1:34:22.960 --> 1:34:25.960 a number on your brain. But Evan, frankly, it's not 1:34:26.040 --> 1:34:28.600 just about the survivors understanding what's happening to them, but 1:34:28.680 --> 1:34:30.559 it's the people out there where they could get this. 1:34:31.200 --> 1:34:33.479 They could be that voice that says, I believe you, 1:34:34.160 --> 1:34:36.760 How can I be here for you? I hear you. 1:34:36.960 --> 1:34:39.080 I see you. You may not be ready to go, 1:34:39.160 --> 1:34:42.240 and I understand that, and I'm here waiting for you 1:34:42.280 --> 1:34:44.720 on the other side and alongside you as you go 1:34:44.800 --> 1:34:47.240 through this. That's what people need to do, is we 1:34:47.320 --> 1:34:49.840 need to educate people just as much on how to 1:34:49.880 --> 1:34:52.160 be supporters and not naysayers. 1:34:52.400 --> 1:34:52.759 Yeah. 1:34:52.840 --> 1:34:54.360 I cannot thank you enough. Do you have any other 1:34:54.479 --> 1:34:55.200 questions for me? 1:34:56.080 --> 1:34:58.439 Well, you kind of answered some of them, like like 1:34:58.479 --> 1:35:00.120 this doesn't change. 1:35:00.640 --> 1:35:02.280 Let me put it this way. You know, when you 1:35:02.280 --> 1:35:04.879 and I leave here today, might I see a unicorn 1:35:04.920 --> 1:35:08.880 galloping down the road I drive. I suppose sure, Jamie. 1:35:09.120 --> 1:35:11.360 As a chance tell you this, you'd have to have 1:35:11.840 --> 1:35:16.880 an extraordinarily motivated individual who has enough support on the 1:35:17.000 --> 1:35:22.240 outside of therapy, who has access to the highest quality therapy, 1:35:22.760 --> 1:35:26.040 probably multiple times the week for many years. We're talking 1:35:26.040 --> 1:35:29.679 six figures now that you've got available for therapy probably 1:35:29.720 --> 1:35:33.840 over your time, that you are able to engage in 1:35:33.880 --> 1:35:38.040 some self reflection on what you did to someone, all 1:35:38.200 --> 1:35:42.160 that stuff, all those conditions present, and you might be 1:35:42.200 --> 1:35:45.559 able to make a horse race out of this. I've 1:35:45.560 --> 1:35:48.200 been doing this. I've been doing this about twenty five years, 1:35:48.840 --> 1:35:51.599 once maybe twice. And what I have seen in some 1:35:51.720 --> 1:35:55.439 cases where a person says, oh, in order to be 1:35:55.479 --> 1:35:57.320 good at a relationship, I need to do this whole 1:35:57.360 --> 1:36:01.679 empathy thing and self aware and kind of be nice 1:36:01.960 --> 1:36:04.240 to them thing and listen to their problems thing. What 1:36:04.320 --> 1:36:07.439 I've seen more often is I don't want to hurt anyone. 1:36:07.479 --> 1:36:09.640 I'm not a bad person, but I don't want to 1:36:09.640 --> 1:36:12.000 do that other stuff. So I'm going to cut bait. 1:36:12.640 --> 1:36:15.880 I consider that a win. But that person's personality is 1:36:15.920 --> 1:36:18.920 never changed, right, you see what I'm saying. That's it. 1:36:19.320 --> 1:36:22.800 So that's where it doesn't really change. It's never going 1:36:22.840 --> 1:36:25.479 to evolve into healthy. So that's what I mean. These 1:36:25.479 --> 1:36:28.080 are tough things. Tell people. I've got a personality it's 1:36:28.080 --> 1:36:30.600 not going to change. Is it really realistic for me 1:36:30.640 --> 1:36:34.280 to expect that someone else's will? So yeah, thank you, 1:36:34.520 --> 1:36:37.240 Thank you, Evan. Thank you for bringing your story that 1:36:37.400 --> 1:36:40.200 I keep talking. Yeah, you have to keep talking. Yeah, 1:36:40.280 --> 1:36:43.080 And your story reminds people that there is healing. I 1:36:43.080 --> 1:36:45.960 think that that's the big important piece to take away. 1:36:46.040 --> 1:36:46.519 So thank you. 1:36:46.640 --> 1:36:47.599 Yeah, thank you so much. 1:36:48.320 --> 1:36:52.280 Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Evan. First, 1:36:53.120 --> 1:36:57.599 narcissistic and abusive relationships can leave us feeling stuck in time, 1:36:58.280 --> 1:37:01.839 and as people come out of them will often feel 1:37:01.880 --> 1:37:06.639 like they lost years in their psychological development. These types 1:37:06.680 --> 1:37:10.840 of relationships offer no place for growth. Evan shares that 1:37:10.880 --> 1:37:14.360 this was the case in her relationship. When all of 1:37:14.400 --> 1:37:18.200 your resources go towards survival and just getting through the day, 1:37:18.760 --> 1:37:23.400 it can slow psychological growth way down, which only adds 1:37:23.439 --> 1:37:27.080 to the grief and struggles people face when they leave 1:37:27.200 --> 1:37:33.160 these one sided and harmful relationships. Next one thing Evan 1:37:33.280 --> 1:37:38.440 shared was that as she reflected on that time and relationship, 1:37:39.120 --> 1:37:41.880 that it is difficult to look back at her life 1:37:42.320 --> 1:37:45.200 and many survivors find that just having to look at 1:37:45.320 --> 1:37:48.080 images of themselves from the time they were in these 1:37:48.120 --> 1:37:53.760 relationships leave them sad and regretful. In this way, narcissistic 1:37:53.800 --> 1:37:57.920 relationships really do steal time, and for people in more 1:37:58.000 --> 1:38:02.920 severely narcissistic abusive relationlationships, there is so much pain in 1:38:03.000 --> 1:38:07.040 revisiting these relationships, and as such, the time and the 1:38:07.120 --> 1:38:11.320 memories can get set aside to avoid the pain for 1:38:11.439 --> 1:38:15.400 our next takeaway. As she shared her story, Evan said 1:38:15.439 --> 1:38:19.000 that after she got out of her relationship, she distanced 1:38:19.000 --> 1:38:22.640 herself from her experience for nearly eight years, and in 1:38:22.680 --> 1:38:26.280 her quest for what felt like a normal life, she 1:38:26.320 --> 1:38:30.160 had not only distanced herself but attempted to avoid dealing 1:38:30.400 --> 1:38:36.839 with all that had happened. Unfortunately, we cannot outrun our pain. Grieving, 1:38:37.479 --> 1:38:41.599 processing the trauma and losses, and talking it through are 1:38:41.760 --> 1:38:46.360 all crucial. While routine and a normal life can create 1:38:46.400 --> 1:38:52.480 a sense of safety without addressing trauma and having experiences validated, 1:38:53.200 --> 1:38:56.680 it can and will show up in many ways or 1:38:56.880 --> 1:39:01.320 be brought up by triggering experiences. Evan had this happen 1:39:01.360 --> 1:39:05.000 on film and television sets and found that it affected 1:39:05.000 --> 1:39:09.320 her professionally. Trauma informed therapy as a place to work 1:39:09.479 --> 1:39:14.960 through these kinds of experiences is essential. In this next takeaway, 1:39:15.280 --> 1:39:18.639 a trauma bond can be generated by a partner who 1:39:18.760 --> 1:39:22.880 not only manipulates in gaslights, but Evan shares how her 1:39:22.920 --> 1:39:26.120 partner took the stance of it's us against the world, 1:39:26.680 --> 1:39:31.280 casting them as misunderstood misfits in a world that wanted 1:39:31.320 --> 1:39:34.800 to ostracize them. By creating a bond in this way, 1:39:35.360 --> 1:39:39.320 it cannot only make a manipulative partner feel like an ally, 1:39:39.840 --> 1:39:46.680 but further cement this dangerous dynamic of isolation. Next, we 1:39:46.880 --> 1:39:52.400 have discussed coercive control in multiple episodes of Navigating Narcissism, 1:39:53.120 --> 1:39:57.680 but one dynamic Evan highlighted in her relationship was her 1:39:57.840 --> 1:40:01.880 partner getting in her face repeat heatedly until she would 1:40:01.920 --> 1:40:05.960 agree just to make it stop. This dynamic can have 1:40:06.040 --> 1:40:08.960 a gaslighting feel to it, but in some ways it 1:40:09.000 --> 1:40:13.840 conforms to something called negative reinforcement, which is when a 1:40:14.000 --> 1:40:19.760 person is rewarded for a behavior by something aversive being 1:40:19.840 --> 1:40:24.520 taken away. Evan would give in to her partner's criticisms 1:40:24.520 --> 1:40:28.400 and accusations, even if they were wrong. It would make 1:40:28.479 --> 1:40:33.719 his relentless rage stop, and the relief of that would 1:40:33.800 --> 1:40:36.240 mean that she would do it again in the future. 1:40:37.040 --> 1:40:40.360 This can create a treacherous dynamic where it looks to 1:40:40.400 --> 1:40:43.920 the world that the person being harmed in the relationship 1:40:44.439 --> 1:40:48.439 is agreeing with the abusive person, when in fact they 1:40:48.439 --> 1:40:52.799 are just capitulating and giving in to make the verbal 1:40:52.920 --> 1:40:58.400 abuse stop. And for our last takeaway, as Evan shared 1:40:58.439 --> 1:41:02.240 what worked for her in her heeling, she highlighted trusting 1:41:02.320 --> 1:41:07.360 herself time alone, allowing herself to process the grief, being 1:41:07.479 --> 1:41:12.960 patient and giving it time, and this culminated slowly into 1:41:13.000 --> 1:41:17.600 her feeling safer in her own mind. After her relationship, 1:41:17.880 --> 1:41:21.479 Evan entered another relationship and became a mother, and she 1:41:21.560 --> 1:41:26.400 has found, like many, that motherhood also becomes instrumental to healing. 1:41:27.280 --> 1:41:31.080 Time alone is often crucial to processing grief, and while 1:41:31.120 --> 1:41:34.200 it can be scary to be alone with these feelings 1:41:34.200 --> 1:41:40.600 and sensations, it is often the only path forward