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Speaker 1: Body dytas, but Joseph's gotten more. It's an interesting thing,

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Speaker 1: the human skeleton. Did you know that every stage of

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Speaker 1: life that we go through is kind of marked by

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Speaker 1: our physical support system, if you will, our anatomical support system,

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Speaker 1: our framework, that framework that our organs rest within and

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Speaker 1: that our skin stretches over. It marks time for us.

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Speaker 1: It is a It gives off developmental signals. It talks

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Speaker 1: about disease, and I say talk as if you can

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Speaker 1: have a conversation with it. But if you read it right,

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Speaker 1: you can learn a lot about people through their skeletons.

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Speaker 1: And in my world, in the world of metal legal

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Speaker 1: death investigation, sometimes skeletal remains are all that we have

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Speaker 1: to tell the tale. I'm Josephcotten Morgan and this is

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Speaker 1: body Bags, Brother Dave. I've been excited about doing this

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Speaker 1: episode with you because I got to make a confession

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Speaker 1: right here, right now and tell you this dirty, dark

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Speaker 1: little secret about myself. I am, at my heart, a

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Speaker 1: amateur frustrated forensic anthropologists. I've always worked with forensic anthropologists.

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Speaker 1: I've been in their worlds, I've been in their labs,

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Speaker 1: I've been in the field with them, slapping mosquitoes and

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Speaker 1: fending off snakes. Yes, been in swampy walk, I've been

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Speaker 1: in a rugged terrain. But I have always been enamored

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Speaker 1: a forensic anthropologists, and every opportunity that I have, I've

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Speaker 1: always welcomed that moment when I can kind of sit

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Speaker 1: at their feet and learn because they're fascinating individuals. They're

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Speaker 1: fascinating because they have to take very very little and

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Speaker 1: tell a story with it. It's not like a forensic

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Speaker 1: pathologist where you still have soft tissue, you've got evidence

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Speaker 1: of trauma in the immediate with focal areas of hemorrhage

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Speaker 1: and all that stuff that we talked about on bodybags. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not what forensic anthropologists do. They have to frame

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Speaker 1: everything out in very broad sense, and sometimes they can

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Speaker 1: come up with detailed information, but it's just it's the

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Speaker 1: way they go about it. The tools that they have

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Speaker 1: to utilize. And I'm not talking about stuff that they

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Speaker 1: can necessarily holding their hands as far as tools, but

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Speaker 1: their intellect that those things that they bring to the

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Speaker 1: table to try to literally and just envision this for

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Speaker 1: a second day, to try to fill in the blanks

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Speaker 1: where soft tissue used to be. It no longer exists.

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Speaker 1: You got the framework, but you know, the shingles are

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Speaker 1: off the roof. There's no more siding on the house.

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Speaker 1: All you've got is that framework that's left behind.

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Speaker 2: And so as we dig into this today, dig.

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Speaker 1: Hey, I see what you did there.

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Speaker 2: I follow that all right.

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Speaker 3: But I noticed when you were looking and sharing some

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Speaker 3: of this information with me that you had the basic

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Speaker 3: five things or ten things whatever, the very specific parts

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Speaker 3: of forensic anthropology. Yeah, so like from physical anthropology to linguistics. Yes,

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Speaker 3: so if we carve these out one at a time

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Speaker 3: and they're all tied together, I'm already ready to flunk

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Speaker 3: the first final because having done stuff on radio and

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Speaker 3: television dealing with crime stuff forever, it seems, and I've

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Speaker 3: never dug this deep.

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Speaker 2: I've heard things.

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Speaker 3: Talked about, I've heard you talk about them, but like,

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Speaker 3: when you get right down to it, physical anthropology, start

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Speaker 3: right there, Joe, and tell me what is that and

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Speaker 3: what does it mean to you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's back up a little bit, because you have

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Speaker 1: you have this kind of you. If you think about

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Speaker 1: what's contained beneath the roof of the house of anthropology,

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Speaker 1: you know, you go back to people like Margaret and

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Speaker 1: Meade that were studying tribal behaviors and all that sort

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Speaker 1: of stuff. And she was real quick.

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Speaker 2: I apologize for jumping in. Yeah, all right.

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Speaker 3: Back in the day, I think I was in sixth grade,

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Speaker 3: we lived two houses down from a woman named Margaret Meade.

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Speaker 3: Really yeah, and she was really kind of secretive. You know,

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Speaker 3: she was probably in her fifties at the time. I

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Speaker 3: couldn't really tell she was old, you know, and everybody

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Speaker 3: over for sanction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But anyway, I thought, for the longest time, is that her?

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Speaker 3: You know, when her name came up in like junior

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Speaker 3: high something.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, yeah, you first hear junior high.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't. But I would walk by her house thinking.

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Speaker 1: What are the odds?

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean it's a thought. It's just you know, she's.

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Speaker 1: Part of the study of cultural anthropology and you know,

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Speaker 1: anthro it has to do with the study of mankind. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And some people will say, well, it's the study of

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Speaker 1: individual personages or it's a study of groups, and she,

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Speaker 1: you know, she's an example of kind of how that blended,

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Speaker 1: I think. But that's you have these multiple sections within anthropology,

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Speaker 1: and you know, one of my favorite things under the

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Speaker 1: umbrella of anthropology is actually linguistics. I'm fascinated by linguistics.

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Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by linguists that you know, can talk about

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Speaker 1: the origins of languages and you know, and all of

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Speaker 1: these all of these different little subtleties relative to how

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Speaker 1: we communicate with one another in the origin of you know,

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Speaker 1: of various types of languages and how we're kind of

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Speaker 1: all interconnected that people don't think about. But then you

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Speaker 1: come to physical anthropology, and beneath that umbrella you can

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Speaker 1: go down a couple of different roads. You have physical anthropology,

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Speaker 1: which some would say a subset of that is archaeology

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Speaker 1: and paleo which goes back, you know, into the time

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Speaker 1: of dinosaurs and all those sorts of things. But for

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Speaker 1: our purposes, we you know, we have forensic anthropology. And

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Speaker 1: anybody that starts off wanting to be a forensic anthropologist,

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Speaker 1: which mind you, is a very long road, you're going

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Speaker 1: to be rooted in all of those classical studies that

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Speaker 1: individuals do in anthropology. You got to really want that.

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Speaker 1: Because here's the thing. I have a lot of students

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Speaker 1: that come to me and they'll say, Professor Morgan, I

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Speaker 1: want to go to the body farm and work up there,

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Speaker 1: and I want to become a forensic anthropologist. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: are you sure be careful what you're what you're asking

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Speaker 1: for here, because it's going to be a very long road,

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Speaker 1: you know, to attain the level of skill that you need.

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Speaker 1: Most forensic anthropologists they don't hang a shingle out. It's

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Speaker 1: not like they've got a business. Okay, where you go

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Speaker 1: to and you walk into the forensic anthropologist's office and

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Speaker 1: you know, you're sitting in the outer room you're reading

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Speaker 1: I don't know, you're reading Red Book and you're waiting

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Speaker 1: for an appointment or something. It's not like that. That's

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Speaker 1: a different kind of doctor. You're in there consulted. And

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Speaker 1: guess what, most of them work in academia, so there's

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Speaker 1: not enough work out there to support yourself. Most people

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Speaker 1: that are forensic anthropologists work work in work in institutions

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Speaker 1: somewhere where they teach in addition to it, and then

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Speaker 1: assult as a forensic anthropologists.

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Speaker 3: That's an amazing thing when you because I really did

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Speaker 3: think that you have a case and you you know

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Speaker 3: what you need in terms of looking into this, and

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Speaker 3: you know, I need a forensic anthropologist. I really did

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Speaker 3: think that you had ten of them, you know, and

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Speaker 3: you just start top of the list and you start.

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Speaker 2: Calling who's available. You know.

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Speaker 3: It was only after doing this show for some time

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Speaker 3: that I realized that most of the people who do

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Speaker 3: this very specialized work and requiring a lot of education

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Speaker 3: in the classroom tremendous amount, and even more education out

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Speaker 3: in the field working with somebody who really knows what

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Speaker 3: they're doing, that they are lashed to a desk and

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Speaker 3: have to create the time to even go back out

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Speaker 3: in the field.

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Speaker 2: It's a very difficult thing to compromse. I just thought

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Speaker 2: they were I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: Most of these people that are academic anthropologists, many of

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Speaker 1: them work in large institutions. And there's a term that

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Speaker 1: she used in academia, and you've probably heard it before,

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Speaker 1: but it bears repeating. It's called publisher parish. So they

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Speaker 1: study publisher parish. That means that you have to have

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Speaker 1: ongoing research where you're essentially what it comes down to.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people will hold it up and say, well,

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Speaker 1: we're we're studying for the betterment of academia, and you know, no,

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Speaker 1: you're not. You're you're studying and so that you can

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Speaker 1: get a federal grant and bring it back into the institution,

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Speaker 1: and the institution needs those moneies in order to continue

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Speaker 1: to function. And that's demonstrative of what's going on at

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Speaker 1: the institution. We're just putting all cards on table here.

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Speaker 1: That's the reality of it. So if you're a forensic anthropologist,

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Speaker 1: not only are you teaching classes, but you're also having

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Speaker 1: to do individual research and oh, by the bye, you're

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Speaker 1: in addition to that, you're working with a variety of

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Speaker 1: different law enforcement agencies. I think probably the template for that,

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Speaker 1: and the best example is doctor Bill Bass who founded

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Speaker 1: the Body Farm up in ut Up at the University

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Speaker 1: of Tennessee and Knoxville and solely for the purpose of

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Speaker 1: trying to understand how human beings decay, which is something

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Speaker 1: that most people in their wildest dreams would not think

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Speaker 1: about that occurring. And he created this decay lab, if

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Speaker 1: you will. And now there's several of them that are

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Speaker 1: out there institutions. One of the ones that comes to

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Speaker 1: mind is the Maple Center, which is down at the

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Speaker 1: University of Florida. You say, well, Morgan, why would you

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Speaker 1: need why would you need two of these in the South. Well,

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Speaker 1: first off, there's not just two. I think Western Carolina

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Speaker 1: has one as well now or they did. Did you

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Speaker 1: know that when we talk about decomposition and how remains

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Speaker 1: are naturally rendered down, the impact of the environment in Knoxville,

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Speaker 1: Tennessee is completely different than if we were in gains

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Speaker 1: with Florida. Those two environments are so desperately apart from

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Speaker 1: one another. You're not going to have same insects, You're

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Speaker 1: not going to have same environmental conditions. All of those

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Speaker 1: considerations have to go in and it's just like, and

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Speaker 1: I submit that a lot of the data that you

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Speaker 1: might collect in long term research at a place like

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Speaker 1: UT is not necessarily going to apply if you're working

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Speaker 1: a case, let's say in Bismarck, North Dakota, Okay, because

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Speaker 1: the environment is going to dictate a lot of this.

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Speaker 1: You know, just what's your insect life up there, because

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Speaker 1: it ain't going to be the same as it is,

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Speaker 1: you know, in smoky mountains, and it's not going to

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Speaker 1: be the same as you're going to get down in

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Speaker 1: that marshy territory down in Gainesville where it's super hot

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Speaker 1: and humid and all those sorts of things. And you

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Speaker 1: could extend it out even further. You know what about

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Speaker 1: you know because there's a very famous entomologist world were

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Speaker 1: renowned entomologists that worked at the University of Hawaii or

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Speaker 1: was it the University of Hawaii or the shamanat I

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Speaker 1: think anyway, it doesn't matter, but he was in Hawaii.

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Speaker 1: Well his world, if he's studying human remains, desiccation, human remains,

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Speaker 1: that world is going to be completely different than some

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Speaker 1: other locations. So you have to have a skill set

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Speaker 1: where I think as a forensic anthropologist, where you study

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Speaker 1: or an understanding variety of things first off and at

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Speaker 1: the most basic human anatomy, and you have to know

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Speaker 1: it like the back of your hand. Nobody intended you

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Speaker 1: have to know human anatomy. You have to be able

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Speaker 1: to Here's an interesting thing and I heard this little

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you the story because it always

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Speaker 1: fascinated me. There was a story that was related to

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Speaker 1: me by a friend of mine that was a forriendsic

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Speaker 1: anthropologist and had gone through the program at UT and

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Speaker 1: he did. He had to go through what was referred

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Speaker 1: too as the box test, and the box test was

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Speaker 1: where doctor Bass would sit on one side of the

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Speaker 1: table and the student would be on the other side

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Speaker 1: of the table and there'd be a cardboard box in

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Speaker 1: between you, and it had holes cut in either end.

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Speaker 1: You couldn't see inside the box. And doctor Bass would

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Speaker 1: insert his hand into one end of the box. Students

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Speaker 1: and sert their hand into the other side of the box,

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Speaker 1: and the box is filled with comingled skeletal remains, and

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Speaker 1: just by touch, just by feel, doctor Bass would pick

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Speaker 1: up that element that's contained in there. It could be

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Speaker 1: a raccoon bone, it could be a human finger, an

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Speaker 1: element of the hand, and just by touch you had

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Speaker 1: to tell him what it was blindly. That's how rigorous

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Speaker 1: this is. And just let that sink in just for

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Speaker 1: a second, because that's you know, when you hit that

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Speaker 1: level of where you're using kind of your tactile senses

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Speaker 1: to be able to and you know, it's amazing the

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Speaker 1: training that these people receive. People think about it, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go to the I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: to the Body Farm, or I'm going to go to

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Speaker 1: the Maple Center. Take one of these courses. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: can do that, and you have a foundation, you know,

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Speaker 1: for what moves forward. Because there are specialized courses that

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Speaker 1: civilians and law enforcement you can go to, but it's

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Speaker 1: not like going through a master's or a doctoral program,

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Speaker 1: certainly a doctoral program. When you get there, I.

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Speaker 2: Puts in the box just to mess with them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, kidd. It's the prospect of that on

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Speaker 1: one level is very terrifying to me. But you have

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Speaker 1: to put on your science hat when you do that.

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Speaker 3: I'm just thinking of the training and education it would

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Speaker 3: take to determine this is a raccoon bone and.

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Speaker 2: Not a foot a small bone from the foot.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because we've got a billion bones in there and

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Speaker 3: some are really small, and that I mean, that just

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Speaker 3: boggles my mind that you could do that by touch.

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Speaker 1: Well. I got to tell you one of a little

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Speaker 1: interesting story. The same friend of mine who was from

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Speaker 1: Louisiana but went to ut for his masters and its

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Speaker 1: PhD uh. He used to like to take back roads home.

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Speaker 1: He stayed off of interstates. It was just this thing.

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Speaker 1: He just liked to travel, you know, through the un

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Speaker 1: you know, through the less populated areas of the South.

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Speaker 1: And he had made it all the way from Knoxville

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Speaker 1: and he was driving through like middle Middle Mississippi, you know,

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Speaker 1: heading home to South Louisiana and he pulled into a

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Speaker 1: filling station there and there was a guy.

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Speaker 2: That was.

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Speaker 1: That was the attendant, if you will, and it's a

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Speaker 1: typical kind of Southern image. You can imagine he fell

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Speaker 1: and overall sitting outside in an old broken chair, and

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Speaker 1: he greeted my friend, you know, as he drove up,

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Speaker 1: and my friend said that he noticed guy had a

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Speaker 1: necklace run around him, a leather necklace, and he looked

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Speaker 1: at it and he said he saw a pennant on it.

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Speaker 1: And then further closer examination, he realized that it was

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Speaker 1: not a pennant, but it was a toothpick and it

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Speaker 1: was hanging and it was a toothpick made out of bone.

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Speaker 1: And instantaneously, because of his training at UT, he knew

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Speaker 1: what that bone was. It was a vaculum. Do you

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Speaker 1: know what a vaculum is?

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Speaker 2: Daved?

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Speaker 1: A baculum is actually a bone that is are you

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Speaker 1: ready for this? That it's contained as part of the

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Speaker 1: antomical structure of certain animals, particularly raccoons, that allows them

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Speaker 1: to achieve an erection. And so it can be taken

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Speaker 1: and filed to a sharp point. And I'd never heard

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Speaker 1: of this before. And you can drill a hole in

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Speaker 1: one end of it hanging around your neck and use

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Speaker 1: it as a toothpick. And this fella had one of those.

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Speaker 1: It's that kind of attention to detail. I was with

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Speaker 1: the same friend of mine one day and we were

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Speaker 1: walking across a construction area to go get a cup

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Speaker 1: of coffee, not too far away from the Medical Examiner's office,

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Speaker 1: and construction areas if you're ever walking through I think

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Speaker 1: most people can identify with this. You see clods of

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Speaker 1: dirt built up, laying about and that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: and you look down at the earth and to us,

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Speaker 1: we see clods of dirt. To him, it wasn't like that.

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Speaker 1: My friend always walked around with his head downward looking

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Speaker 1: and I heard him say hmm. And I learned a

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Speaker 1: long time ago that if this individual ever said hmm

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Speaker 1: or wow, look at that, it's something I need to

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Speaker 1: take notice of. He reaches down, picks up a clod

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Speaker 1: of dirt, cracks it in half, and he caught the

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Speaker 1: edge of something that was abnormal in his clod, and

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Speaker 1: he pulled out what he estimated to be an eighteen

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Speaker 1: ninety friction match holder with the carving of a or

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Speaker 1: the impression of a dog and a hunter on it.

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Speaker 1: Where a fellow had dropped the scene where he kept

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Speaker 1: his matches in and he could strike them, and therese

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Speaker 1: called friction matches, the old kind where you can see

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Speaker 1: somebody like flicking it with their thumb, you know, like

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Speaker 1: they're doing the movies. And I never would have seen that.

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Speaker 1: But it's that kind of training and attention to detail

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Speaker 1: that you want in any kind of forensic anthropologists you're

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Speaker 1: going to invite onto your death scene. I think probably

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Speaker 1: out of I don't know if you guys share this opinion,

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Speaker 1: but for me, out of all of the Terminator movies

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Speaker 1: with Schwarzenegger, my favorite one is the second one, you know,

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Speaker 1: with the Liquid guy. I love that movie. I'd watch it.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like a remote drop moment for me. I

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Speaker 1: watch it pretty much every time that it comes on.

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Speaker 1: First one's okay, I never really watched the other ones,

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Speaker 1: but there's a line in that movie involving Sarah Connor

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Speaker 1: where she is holding someone against their will and she

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Speaker 1: says to them there are two hundred I think it

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Speaker 1: was two hundred and six bones in the human body,

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Speaker 1: and she implies at least that she's going to break

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Speaker 1: every one of them if this individual doesn't comply to

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Speaker 1: her and that you know that ain't gonna happen, but

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Speaker 1: at any rate, she brings that up. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things that you think about with skeletal anatomy is

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Speaker 1: that it's so vast and just you know, just indulge

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Speaker 1: me here and think about this with with the with

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Speaker 1: the skeletal anatomy, most adults do have approximately and it

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Speaker 1: can vary, do have two hundred and six bones in

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Speaker 1: the body. Okay, babies are born with two hundred and seventy's.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those weird things where the older you get,

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Speaker 1: the fewer bones you have developmentally, and that kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting and that's that goes through the process of the

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Speaker 1: bones fusing and these sorts of things where you're you know,

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Speaker 1: you're developing along the way. And again, those numbers, many

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Speaker 1: people think that those numbers are absolutely static. Sometimes they're not.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes people will have more or fewer. But on the whole,

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Speaker 1: it's approximately two hundred and two hundred and six And

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Speaker 1: you've got two separate if you want to break it

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Speaker 1: down atomically so that we can understand it, you've got uh,

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Speaker 1: two axes that you work on really with the human skeleton,

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Speaker 1: you have the what's referred to as the axillary, which

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Speaker 1: is going to be kind of the mid line, that

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00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 1: the center part of your body. And then you have

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Speaker 1: the appendicular and those are like your attachments, like your

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Speaker 1: arms and your legs. So you've got your center core,

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Speaker 1: your trunk, which is going to be the axilla, and

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Speaker 1: then you're going to have the appendicular that extends out

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Speaker 1: from the bodies. So you're working in those two, those

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Speaker 1: two broad groups when you're trying to determine, you know,

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Speaker 1: what remains there are. I was thinking, David, I was

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Speaker 1: telling you before we went on air to days start

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Speaker 1: taping taping boy dating myself there when Brian Laundry's remained

352
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Speaker 1: were found down there in that swamp. I'm actually looking

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Speaker 1: at his report right now that the forensic anthropologists generated.

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Speaker 1: By the way, it's very well written report back.

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Speaker 2: Up very quickly.

356
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Speaker 3: Brian Laundry the person who killed his fiance Gabby Gabby

357
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 3: sorry Gabby Patito, and then drove her band that she

358
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 3: made for back to his parents' house in Florida, where

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Speaker 3: they had been living before they were on their trip,

360
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Speaker 3: and then after dodging police with help from his parents,

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Speaker 3: he then goes out into the woods camping and commits suicide.

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Speaker 3: But after committing suicide, the area where he did it

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00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 3: in that park got flooded. Yeah, okay, So the reason

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Speaker 3: I'm setting that scene is a lot of people don't

365
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Speaker 3: realize what the forensic anthropologist was required to do when

366
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Speaker 3: they got on scene. So what was different about that

367
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Speaker 3: Joe that required a very very special investigator to come

368
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 3: in and figure out what happened?

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's got a gun.

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Speaker 1: Shot in the head, right, Yeah, he does. And by

371
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: the way, it's a very atypical gunshot wound as far

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Speaker 1: as self inflicted. I've always you know, kind of raised

373
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Speaker 1: an eyebrow to that, but that's okay. Well, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily positioned in classic classic location as far as an

375
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 1: entrance wind goes. It was more up and back, which

376
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Speaker 1: you know, always intrigued me intellectually.

377
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Speaker 2: You know, where would it normally be? Where would you expect?

378
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: Well, you're you're thinking there are Let's just break it

379
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 1: down this way. There are four major bone groups that

380
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: compose the human skull. You got. You'll tap your forehead,

381
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 1: that's your frontal bone, and up above it bilaterally on

382
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: either side, you have what's referred to as the paradal

383
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: or some people will say parati heel, and it's kind

384
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: of a curved bone. It's on both sides and it's

385
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: high up and then below the proetal on either side. Again, bilaterally,

386
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 1: you have the temporal bone, okay, which is a very

387
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: thin bone. It's on either side forward of the ear.

388
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: As the prital bone sweeps back and down, it marries

389
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: up with the excipital bone, which is that bony protuberance

390
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: that you have on the backside. And those are like

391
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: the four major bone groups in forensics that we look at,

392
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: you know, Like if we'll I'll give you an example

393
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: why it's important. Like when we go to the scene

394
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 1: most of the time, if we're talking about an injury

395
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: to the skull, we're going to say things like he

396
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: sustained a gunshot woman or a parent gunshot wound to

397
00:25:54,080 --> 00:26:00,719
Speaker 1: the right right temple or in the right pril bone.

398
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: And it is, I don't know, five centimeters ford of

399
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: the top of the right ear. It's superior to the

400
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 1: right right miatus, which is your actually to your ear hole.

401
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 1: It's it's superior to that by ten ten centimeters, and

402
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: so it's all about orientation. You know where these are

403
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: with laundry in particular, if you have this baseline of

404
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: number of bones and again this approximation of two hundred

405
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: and six when they went out there day to this

406
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you pointed this out, you know, I

407
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: completely Isn't that amazing? We talked about this case for years, right,

408
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: certainly months with gap Tito, and it's you know, for

409
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: me going you know, moving forward, and probably with you.

410
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: I hate to speak for you, but you know, it

411
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 1: begins to fade, you know, after a while, because you're

412
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: layering all these other cases on top of it. When

413
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: they went to examine or try to recover his remains,

414
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: they've they found roughly one hundred and three bones. Okay,

415
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: So that that gives you an idea, you know, you're

416
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: you're literally that is literally if you're thinking about two

417
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: hundred and six bones that we're supposed to have had

418
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: half of that? Okay, Now what do we mean by that? Well,

419
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: you know you've got and bones can range in size,

420
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: you know, I guess the smallest bone is probably the

421
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: state ease, which is one of those tiny little bones

422
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: that's inside of your ear. All right, You remember that

423
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: we learned all that in school. You know, we've got

424
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: the hammer and the anvil and all that stuff.

425
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: Just to give you an idea, Like many people listening

426
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 3: right now, I actually probably napped for most of that,

427
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 3: and then the night before I broke out the book

428
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: and memorized as best I could, took the test the

429
00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 3: next day, and if I got a C minus, I

430
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 3: was the abbeys.

431
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: My big bugaboo was always the hands and the feet.

432
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: Those the hands and feet are absolutely miracle creation of God.

433
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: They're they're so complex and so a typical cap to

434
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: any any doctor that's out there that works on hands

435
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: and feet, because it's the The anatomy is so complex,

436
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: the biomechanics are so complex. But you know, you have

437
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: the state ease, which is arguably the tiniest bone, and

438
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: then the longest bone, and the human bodies the femur,

439
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: which is you know where it fits into uh, into

440
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: your your hip socket if you will, extends all the

441
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: way from your hip down. So with with laundry. For example,

442
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: he you know, he roughly had one hundred, one hundred

443
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: and eight bones that they were covered out there. And

444
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: what made is so very difficult is that this Dave,

445
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: this was not This was not a burial, okay, And

446
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: forensic anthropologists have to work in a variety of different conditions.

447
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: This is a water environment, which they By the way,

448
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, I probably am. I think that

449
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: the forensic anthropologists either came from University of Southern Florida

450
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: or the University of Central Florida. My money's on Southern

451
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: Florida though, And she kind of led the team out there,

452
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, because FBI crime Scene Response team

453
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: was already out there. And this is very complex because

454
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: once bodies begin to decay and you're in a very

455
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: austere environment like this, the kind of rising and falling

456
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: of tide are not tied. But the water levels in

457
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: the swampy area are going to be dictated by rainfall.

458
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: And you know, for those of us that have you know,

459
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: spent any time in Florida, you know that they'll get

460
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: gully washers down there, that will everything will be you'll

461
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: have water standing in the streets. Well. Just and that's

462
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: in a controlled environment where you have gutter systems and

463
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: all that. Just imagine you're in the swampy area back

464
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: in this park day and there's nowhere for the water

465
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: to really drain to. In the immediate it just kind

466
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: of kind of floats there, okay, and then it'll drop

467
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: back down, then it'll go back up, then it'll drop

468
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: back down. So you know, in the early piece to this,

469
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: when he died, he now becomes subject to that same environment.

470
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: And there's even you know, and even in the report

471
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: for laundry, you know, the forensic anthropologist goes to some

472
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: length and describe that there had been you know, carnivore

473
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: activity that had been you know, feasting on his remains.

474
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: So there's no telling how many bones were essentially drug

475
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: off to some burrow somewhere, taken up in a tree,

476
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: which will happen the tinier bones. And it creates a

477
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: very complex environment. And some of the stuff that forensic

478
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: anthropologists do a lot of it is based on not

479
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: just what they're seeing, but what they do what they

480
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: don't see. Just let that sink in for a second.

481
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: You know, you think about other sciences that are out there,

482
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 1: and there are some that work on this idea that

483
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not just looking for positive findings. I'm

484
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: looking for negative findings. And I don't mean positive and

485
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: negative relative to how you happen to feel about something

486
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: in a moment time. I'm talking about a presence or

487
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: an absence of something, and so that's one of the

488
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: things you know with laundry in particularly, and there have

489
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: been a lot of other cases like this too over

490
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: the years. So just because you go out to a

491
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: scene where their skeletal remains doesn't mean that the remains

492
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: are going to be completely hacked, that it will all

493
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: be there. And that's where the difficulty really arises as

494
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: it's applied to the skill of the forensic anthropologists. How

495
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: are they going to be able to interpret what they're finding,

496
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: how does it fit into the narrative of the death,

497
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: and what can their assessment reveal out there. I found

498
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: that it's better for me, in particular, that when I

499
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: am at the scene with the forensic anthropologist, no matter

500
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: how much study I've done in the past, no matter

501
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: how many cases I've worked, it's better that for that

502
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: moment in time, when I'm in that individual's presence, I'm

503
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: no longer an investigator. I'm a student that should keep

504
00:32:52,680 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: their mouths shut and their eyes and their ears. People

505
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: talk a lot about doctor Bass as well as should

506
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: because he is a giant in the field of forensic anthropology.

507
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: Uh and in forensic science, it's not just a lot

508
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: of stuff that doctor Bass has done has you know,

509
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: kind of seeped over into other practice. He's greatly influenced

510
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: forensic pathology. I think he's he's influenced the study of

511
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: ballistics relative to how bones interact with projectiles. Tool marks

512
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: is one of the big areas that they that they investigate.

513
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: He had one fellow on his staff for a long

514
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: time that was one of the leading experts.

515
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 2: In the world on saw marks.

516
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: And all this guy did was study the different types

517
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: of saw blades and what kind of impressions they would

518
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: generate on bone, whether it's you know, aular saw or

519
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: a hack saw. But one of the more interesting characters

520
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: in forensic anthropology is a guy that is no longer

521
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: with us, and I think he was at the University

522
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: of Oklahoma for a long time. It's doctor Clyde Snow

523
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: and doctor Snow who I never had an opportunity to meet.

524
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: I wish that I could have. Doctor Snow was kind

525
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 1: of a rotund individual that was always dressed. He always

526
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: looked like he was going on safari and smoked a

527
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: lot and he but he came up with a really

528
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: interesting term and I still use this to this day.

529
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: When I teach a section at jack State on forensic anthropology.

530
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: He coined the phrase. He coined the phrase, let me

531
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: get this straight straight osteobiography. And what he understood that

532
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:01,720
Speaker 1: many people don't understand is that by the study of

533
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: human skeletal remains, we can learn so much about bodies,

534
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: and not just the remains that are in front of you,

535
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: but a life that had been lived prior to that.

536
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: And let me give you a kind of a one

537
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: of the the big for instances here. Let's just say

538
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: that you've got human remains and you're trying to determine

539
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 1: you're trying to do sex determination on a skeletal remain. Well,

540
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: you're not just looking at the size of the bone,

541
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: because males male's bones tends to be robust. Female bones

542
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: tend to be was referred to as grassisle, which means

543
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: kind of delicate. Fine, you're looking for any kind of

544
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: disease related changes. Well, if you've got a bone that

545
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: shows shows an indicatation of osteoporosis, well, odds are that's

546
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: not going to be a male skeletal element that's going

547
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: to be a female element because there's a huge industry

548
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: out there that's built up on treating osteoporosis. I mean,

549
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 1: how many times do you hear that in the news.

550
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: I knew one friend of my wife who she ate

551
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: ate tombs every single day because her doctor told her

552
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: that it's a great source of calcium to you know,

553
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: knock down, use something, use something to knock down the

554
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: advancement of osteoporosis. There's other diseases too, you know. You

555
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,760
Speaker 1: have like if you're digging through older remains and they'll

556
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: have somebody died of tuberculosis, there will be these changes

557
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: that take place to bone as a result of tuberculosis.

558
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: You have cases where I know there's a current dig

559
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: that's going on over in uh and I'd mentioned this

560
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: I think in a previous episode going on over in Bristol, England,

561
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: and you have the bodies of children and the children

562
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: are malnourished well developmentally, that skeleton is going to demonstrate malnutrition. Okay, trauma.

563
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, Dave. I think I have

564
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: played football. I think I I think I have broken

565
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 1: every one of my fingers at one point in time,

566
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: most of them I would just pop, and now I'm

567
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: paying the price for it. I've broken my hand, broken

568
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: my nose three times. You know I've had yeah, no kidding,

569
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: it seems like it. But you know, if you were

570
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: to strip down all that remains a Joe Scott Morgan

571
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: and you were looking at my skeleton, well, I have

572
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,959
Speaker 1: an osteobiography. As a result, you're going to be able

573
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: to tell certain little things about me and the life

574
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: that I had led. Not only are you going to

575
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: be able to see, for instance, when my nose that

576
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: has been broken multiple times, not only going to see

577
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: evidence that it has been broken, but as time has

578
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 1: gone on, you're going to be able to appreciate the

579
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: You're going to be able to appreciate how long ago

580
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: this happened because the bone will begin to smooth. You

581
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: look at. One of the things that I'm always fascinated

582
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: by is if I ever had a skull, I would

583
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: look at the sutures on the top of the skull,

584
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: which are if you, I urge anybody right now, go

585
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: and look up picture an actual picture of a human skull,

586
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: and you'll see these kind of curvilinear lines that run

587
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: through the middle line of the skull and they run

588
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: on the backside of the frontal bone and back in

589
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: the acceptial area. Well, those are called suture lines. And

590
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: when we're babies and we're forming, you know that kind

591
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: of and they have interlocking teeth. Well, we'll look at

592
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 1: a human skull, Dave, and if those suture lines are smooth,

593
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: like when you run your hand over it, you can't

594
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: feel them. Sometimes they're obliterated. You know that that person

595
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: was like really advanced in age because you think about

596
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: just doing this, Just imagine this every time you raise

597
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: your eyebrows frowned. Okay, smile. The overlying skin is moving

598
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,959
Speaker 1: and it wears on bone. Over a period of time,

599
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: it eradicates it and you'll have like we call it

600
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 1: sure suture obliteration. You'll also have it if you take

601
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: the tip of your tongue and stick it a roof

602
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: of your mouth. That's actually your hard palette. You've heard

603
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: that term before. Well, if you stripped away the skin,

604
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 1: the tissue off of your hard palate and you could

605
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: get down to the bone, which actually is kind of

606
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 1: like the floor of the skull, there's suture lines in there,

607
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: and those sutures. Well, I actually did a paper on

608
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: this years ago. You have suture line obliteration in the

609
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: roof of the mouth as well, and then you have

610
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: joint where you can see arthritic changes. And if anybody

611
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,919
Speaker 1: has had like a gunshot wound of broken arm, even

612
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: if it's been surgically repaired, you can still see evidence

613
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: that the bone is what's called modeled. It's trying to fuse,

614
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 1: you know, back together, and you'll get you know, bones

615
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: will do that. You can have somebody that has a

616
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: severe break and they never got it treated. You'll see

617
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: some old person that's limping around, for instance, and if

618
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: you look at their like if you're talking about a

619
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 1: fractured femur that was never repaired by you know, by

620
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: surgery or whatever, you'll see these kind of I don't

621
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 1: really know how to describe them. You'll see these kind

622
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: of protuberances on the bone and it's it's kind of

623
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: ghastly looking where the bone is has fused back together

624
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: and the person permanently walks with a limp. Probably in

625
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: life they had a hard time, but that bone wants

626
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 1: to get back together and heal. And you can see

627
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 1: surgical interventions as well. There's any number of bones that

628
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 1: I've been on site with forensic anthropology we've recovered that

629
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: had screws in them, you know, where you'll have somebody

630
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: that had some kind of surgical repair, and this is

631
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,399
Speaker 1: these are stainless steel screws back in the day. They're

632
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: probably using other types of components now to do that.

633
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 3: The original Planet of the Apes when Tarlton Heston is

634
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: in the cave and he's going through the different things

635
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 3: that it be found in there. One was dental the

636
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 3: other was the heart valve, you know, and he was

637
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 3: describing the things that he knew of that.

638
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,720
Speaker 2: Person who has long gone. All those left. Isn't that amazing?

639
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: I forgot all about that scene, And you're absolutely right,

640
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: and that stuff does remain behind. I think at the

641
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: Morphy case in particular, Oh wow, where the port was

642
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 1: found with her remains, her skeletal remains, and that stuff.

643
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: Eventually it would it's going to go away, but it'll

644
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: hang back. And there's certain things that you're looking for

645
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: at the scene that will give you an indication of

646
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: this individual's osteobiography. But you know, there's so many cases

647
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: over the years have have required the use of forensic

648
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: anthropologists probably. And let me give you an example, going

649
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: back to doctor Snow. Doctor Snow was had quite the

650
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: reputation of being you know, he was kind of a

651
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if you use the term swashbuckler. I

652
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: don't think he was swimming off of chandeliers, but he

653
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: was a man of his time. He actually went and

654
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: can you imagine doing this, he imagine going down to

655
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: Central America in the height of all the civil wars

656
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: that were happening back in the eighties, and Dave he'd

657
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: go down there and exhum mass graves and be shot

658
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: at while he's down there, and he's standing on the

659
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: edge in some jungle location, you know, in Honduras or Nicaragua,

660
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: where El Salvador, wherever it is that he was, and

661
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: to try to make sense out of what was still

662
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: in those graves. And I think a lot of people

663
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 1: would say, and this goes to kind of being an anthropologist,

664
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: A lot of people will say, well, they're dead. What

665
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: difference does it make. We know that they were all

666
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: lined up and shot and pushed down a grave. But

667
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: you can learn a lot from first off, what has

668
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 1: been deposited in the grave. For instance, if in war

669
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: crimes cases, and you see this in You've seen this

670
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: in Europe over the years as well, and I would

671
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: submit to you in Southeast Asia, when people are killed

672
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: and dumped into a grave, well you need to have

673
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: a forensic anthropologists to tell you are they only killing males?

674
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: Are they killing males? Are they killing only females? Are

675
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 1: they killing the elderly? Are they trying to eradicate all

676
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: of the children in a particular village. From that, you

677
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: can begin to kind of piece together what sorts of

678
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,760
Speaker 1: people you're dealing with. And when this goes, say, for instance,

679
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: you're working a case of you know, genocide like this,

680
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: that information would go to like a World court or

681
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,720
Speaker 1: wherever it is that they try to prosecute these things

682
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 1: to give them an idea as to who is being

683
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: targeted in any particular case. You know, there are a

684
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: lot of cases where, particularly if you have tribal issues,

685
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: where they'll kill all the males and then kidnap all

686
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 1: the women and children and try to you know, bring

687
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: them into their own community. And so that's the type

688
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: of thing that you know that doctor Snow would do,

689
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: and then he would look, you know, he'd also try

690
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: to give them an idea. How were they killed? Is

691
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: there an indication that they had endured torture over a

692
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: protracted period of time where they're being beaten, they've got

693
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: multiple broken bones that occurred in life, or was this

694
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: simply they dragged them out of their homes in the

695
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: middle of the night and began to pop them in

696
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: the back of the head into a preduct grave. So

697
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: you can learn a lot. You can learn a lot

698
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: by what you're seeing physically manifesting itself out of a scene.

699
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: With going back to, you know, to other cases that

700
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: are out there. I had friends that worked Waco, for instance,

701
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: that were out there. Dave, you're talking just tens of

702
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: not just skeletal remains, but you're talking skeletal remains that

703
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 1: are skeletonized as a result of intense flame. These these

704
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: remains are incredibly fragile. I wrote about in my book

705
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet from all those years ago where

706
00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: I'd had an episode of I was going through a

707
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: real tough time in my life and really dealing with

708
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: certain issues with PTSD. And we had a guy on

709
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: Georgia four hundred that had run his car into the

710
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: side of a pillar of a support uh support pillar

711
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: of an overpass on George of four hundred. And I'll

712
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: never forget. It was a little Uh, I was gonna say, Texas.

713
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: It was a little Ford Ranger pickup truck. He was

714
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: on his way into work, and when he hit this

715
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: bridge pillar support pillar, his truck burst into flames, and

716
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: he was trying to get out of the car, and he,

717
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 1: you know, he succumbed and his body continued to burn.

718
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: And to give you an idea of the fragile nature

719
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: of it and what you encounter. When I was at

720
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 1: the scene, I went to and as was my practice,

721
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 1: i'd look inside the cap of a vehicle, even if

722
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: it had been on fire. And I'm looking around, and

723
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: this guy's hands were in let's refer to as the

724
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: pugilistic condition or posture, where the hands are drawn up

725
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: at the Everything contracts at that point in time depend

726
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 1: upon heat. And as I stuck my head into the cab,

727
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: the guy's left hand brushed against my right cheek, and

728
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,479
Speaker 1: in kind of a stamp move, I grabbed like this

729
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 1: with my left gloved hand, and his entire arm broke

730
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: off in my hand. And when you think about the

731
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: intensity of fire, for instance, like in Waco, or you

732
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: think about the Twin Towers, this intense flame that's in there.

733
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 1: These remains become very very fragile, so you're already dealing

734
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 1: with something where you're trying to assess a few things. Well,

735
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: first off, you want to know who they are. We've

736
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: talked about this on body bags before. It's to me,

737
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: knowing who somebody is is probably more important than knowing

738
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: what caused their death, because if I can find out

739
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: who they are, I can fill in the blanks relative

740
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: to the life that they led, and maybe in some

741
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: way the police can take that information and go find

742
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 1: out who killed them. So you're trying to determine who

743
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: they are, and then you're trying to determine what happened

744
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 1: to them. And it's only a forensic anthropologist that really

745
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 1: has that skill set to deal with these very fragile,

746
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: delicate remains, and they're always fighting against the elements. That's

747
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: one of the fascinating things about the practice of forensic anthropology.

748
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: You know all those things that they do when they

749
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: go back to their lab and try to ascertain whose

750
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 1: remains they're dealing with, Who is this person? It's rather

751
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: a daunting task, Dave.

752
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 3: So the forensic anthropologist is brought in going back to

753
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 3: brian laundry for a minute, because we find his skeletonized

754
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 3: remains as bones and I guess there was minimal amount

755
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 3: of flesh. Yeah, they take the bones and they send

756
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 3: them to the friends. They anthropologist, and the entire point

757
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 3: is to figure out how this person died.

758
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 2: They already know who it is. I mean, I'm sure

759
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:17,760
Speaker 2: that's part of the process.

760
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 3: You have to positively identify the individual, even though you

761
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 3: know it is all right. But you mentioned that there

762
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 3: was something wrong about or not wrong, something different about

763
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 3: the gunshot.

764
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

765
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 3: So the forensic anthropologists coming into this, are they tasked

766
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 3: with determining what happened? Or are they tasked with tell

767
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 3: us the facts of this situation of what you see

768
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 3: right here, not your years of experience, but just what

769
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 3: does the bone tell you?

770
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 2: Is that what they're doing. I'm kind of curious.

771
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: Because you said that is what they're doing. And listen,

772
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,280
Speaker 1: police are sitting there and they're scratching their head, okay,

773
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: because they're trying to determine, uh, what happened to this individual.

774
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: They might suspect that there's a gunshot woman, but when

775
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: you're listening, if you're if you're talking about a remain

776
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 1: that has been exposed to harsh elements, you can have

777
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 1: events where the skeleton will just kind of come to pieces, okay,

778
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: and you don't know, for instance, would laundry as an example,

779
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: you don't know if this defect and we'll call it

780
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: a defect instead of a gunshot woman, because that's really

781
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 1: all that you know at that point, you've got a whole.

782
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: Is that was that whole something that occurred in life

783
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,280
Speaker 1: leading up to death or is it something that occurred afterwards,

784
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: because you begin to think about, well, you've got animal activity.

785
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: You know that that's occurring out there. Was there an

786
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 1: animal that was gnawing on this on this remain? I

787
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: give you if you think that that's far fetched. I've

788
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: had in my career. I've had two cases involving involving

789
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: dogs that drug skulls up into backyards and their masters

790
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: went into the backyard and they were in the backyard

791
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 1: at both homes at the same time, at not the

792
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: same time, but two different cases. And the dog you know,

793
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 1: if you've ever I loved dogs, by the way, but

794
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: if you if you ever see a dog with a ball,

795
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: they'll put it between their their paws and they'll they'll

796
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: play with it and that sort of thing. Well, you

797
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 1: take something shaped like a ball, like a human skull,

798
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,439
Speaker 1: and they're going to have it between their their their

799
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 1: forepaws like this. And in both cases, the dog had

800
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: set to gnawing on the top of the skull and

801
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: over period of time, if you know, if they kept

802
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,959
Speaker 1: that skull and just kind of they break the whole

803
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 1: thing down eventually. Uh you know, I've got a I've

804
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: got a rescue lib door retriever and she's got incredible

805
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: jaw strength. I mean, she can eradicate an entire bone

806
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: in no period of time whatsoever. It's amazing what they

807
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: can do. So you have to factor all that in.

808
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,760
Speaker 1: You're trying to give this information back to the police,

809
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 1: and the forensic anthropologies is given enough time, will arrive

810
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: at their own conclusion about not just anti mortem versus

811
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: post mortem, but they will also give you an idea

812
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: as to things like with gunshot wounds. They'll give you

813
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: an idea about directionality. You know, is this front to back,

814
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: is it left to right, is it from above to below?

815
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: You know, trajectory of bullets. Then you get into these

816
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: areas that Lord knows, Dave you and I have covered

817
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: so many of them with dismemberments, you have to be

818
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: really no pun intended as forensic anthropologies, you have to

819
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 1: be very sharp relat to dismemberment because you have to

820
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: understand what kind of tool could have facilitated this bone

821
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 1: coming apart. You know that it didn't just spontaneously come

822
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: apart in midshaft of a femur with a spiral saw

823
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: marks on the on the leading edges of it. This

824
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 1: is something that somebody took a you know, maybe they

825
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: took a bandsaw or they took a circular saw and

826
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 1: just ran it through the center of the thing. Well,

827
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: what type of instrument is this? So you have to

828
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: be up on tool marks to be able to assess this.

829
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: And also was this done in life? Was this part

830
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: of torture? Could it? You know, was some limb hacked

831
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 1: off while the person was still alive or was this

832
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 1: something that was done after the fact. So you have

833
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 1: to be really up your You have to really up

834
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: your game as a forensic anthropologist to not just understand

835
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: the bone itself or trying to classify it anatomically, but

836
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: these individuals have to be able to be able to

837
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 1: understand what happened to the person in death, because, for

838
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: the most part, when we die and you call in

839
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: a forensic anthropologist, our bony structures are all that remain.

840
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.