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Speaker 1: Broadcasting live from the Abraham Lincoln Radio Studio the George

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Speaker 1: Washington Broadcast Center, Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty.

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Speaker 2: Armstrong and Jettie and He Armstrong and Yetty.

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Speaker 3: Goodness sakes, what a day. The crew has taken the

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Speaker 3: week off next week to enjoy Independence Day in a

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Speaker 3: little summer fun, family time.

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Speaker 1: Travel, etc.

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Speaker 3: Today is the last show obviously, before that Jack is

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Speaker 3: winging his way toward Florida with his boys, and I

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Speaker 3: decided I would love to talk to Tim Sander for

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Speaker 3: the Vice President for Legal Affairs at the Goldwater Institute

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Speaker 3: about the Declaration of Independence. Independence Day and one of

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Speaker 3: my favorite books. Tim wrote, The Conscience of the Constitution,

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Speaker 3: the Declaration of Independent and it's in the right to

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Speaker 3: liberty and by coincidence, today is also the day that

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Speaker 3: the Supreme Court is handing out rulings right and left.

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Speaker 1: Tim Sander for joys Is, Tim, how are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm just great. Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's always a pleasure.

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Speaker 3: Have you gotten a chance to take in some of

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Speaker 3: the Scotis' recent issuances.

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Speaker 2: I had to skim some of them, and.

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Speaker 4: This universal injunction decision is really unfortunate. It's a bad ruling,

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Speaker 4: and honestly, it's a really stupid ruling because here's the

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Speaker 4: thing so universal injunctions. That's when a plaintiff goes to

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Speaker 4: court and says the government is doing something unconstitutional, and

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Speaker 4: the judge says, that's right, the government must stop doing

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Speaker 4: this unconstitutional thing. That's a universal injunction. What the opponents

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Speaker 4: of universal injunctions complain about is they say, well, why

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Speaker 4: should a judge in California be able to bar the

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Speaker 4: federal government from doing something in Florida. And the answer

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Speaker 4: to that is because it's unconstitutional. What the ruling today

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Speaker 4: says is now the California federal judge can only issue

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Speaker 4: a ruling barring the unconstitutional thing from happening to the

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Speaker 4: particular people in that particular lawsuit. Well, of course, that's

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Speaker 4: how injunctions work anyway. So all that this ruling says

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Speaker 4: today is that the judge has to write in his opinion,

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Speaker 4: I'm only saying this applies to the plaintiffs in this lawsuit. Well,

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Speaker 4: of course, everybody knows that's already the rule. It's just

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Speaker 4: that the federal government has to follow the law. So

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Speaker 4: if it's doing something in Florida, that's unconstitutional in California.

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Speaker 4: It's still unconstitutional wherever it's happening, so it's illegal. So

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Speaker 4: it's really just creating this weird new formality in how

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Speaker 4: courts go about enforcing the Constitution and justice. Jackson, in

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Speaker 4: her dissenting opinion, has it exactly right. She says, now

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Speaker 4: a court's power to prevent constitutional violations comes with an asterisk.

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Speaker 2: A court can make.

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Speaker 4: The executive cease its unconstitutional conduct asterisk, but only with

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Speaker 4: respect to the particular plaintiffs named in the lawsuit before them,

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Speaker 4: being the government free to violate the constitutional rights of

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Speaker 4: anyone and everyone else.

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Speaker 2: It's a terrible thing, and it's just anyway. It's frustrating

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Speaker 2: by it.

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Speaker 4: No, because there's been a lot of talk among the

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Speaker 4: conservative legal community about trying to stop nationwide injunctions because

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Speaker 4: a lot of conservative lawyers and judges are scared of

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Speaker 4: what they call activist judges. I am not scared of

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Speaker 4: activist judges. I'm scared of judges getting things wrong, whether

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Speaker 4: it be conservative or liberal judges getting things wrong. But activists,

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Speaker 4: there's no It's much worse to have a passive judge

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Speaker 4: who does nothing right. That's much worse when the government

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Speaker 4: does something unconstitutional and you go to a judge that

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Speaker 4: get them to stop, and the judge says, oh, I'm

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Speaker 4: not I'm just gonna let them do whatever.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to be active. That's terrible.

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Speaker 4: That's Kilo versus New London, right where the government comes

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Speaker 4: along and steals your house to hand over to Kyo

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Speaker 4: or something, and the court stands back and refuses to

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Speaker 4: host the constitution.

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Speaker 2: That's a passive judge. That's not what we want.

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Speaker 4: We want judges to be active in enforcing the constitution.

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Speaker 4: We don't want them to be wrong, of course, but

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Speaker 4: we don't want the Congress or the president to.

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Speaker 2: Be wrong either.

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Speaker 4: So the idea that what we want is a passive,

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Speaker 4: non activist judiciary is just crazy.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: So, people who object to the high number of these

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Speaker 3: injunctions and how they've interfered with federal policy, that's in quotes.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can agree with that or not.

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Speaker 3: The answer is that's why we have the appeals process,

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Speaker 3: and it'll be fine, just give it a little time.

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Speaker 2: Yep, exactly.

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Speaker 4: And the reason why we have so many of these

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Speaker 4: injunctions going on right now is because the president is

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Speaker 4: doing so many unconstitutional things.

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Speaker 3: That's why, Oh, look at you say. If you expected pandering,

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Speaker 3: you're not going to get it here. So the specific

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Speaker 3: reason I invited Tim to be on the show today

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Speaker 3: is we're leading up to Independence Day July fourth, and

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Speaker 3: I know how much you like to talk about the

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Speaker 3: Declaration of Independence liberty in general, and one of my

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Speaker 3: favorite books of years, as I mentioned, was The Conscience

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Speaker 3: of the Constitution, which, to my horror, came out like

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Speaker 3: eleven years ago. I know, why did you write the book?

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Speaker 3: What argument are you making?

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Speaker 4: Well, So for I'll preface this by saying, if you

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Speaker 4: like this book, you'll be excited to know I've got

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Speaker 4: a new book about the Declaration of Independence that's schedule

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Speaker 4: to come out next year, in time for the universtieth anniversary.

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Speaker 4: I just finished what I hope is the final draft

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Speaker 4: of it, and I hope people will read and enjoy

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Speaker 4: it about the history of the declaration and what exactly

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Speaker 4: are all of the grievances talking about, and what exactly

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Speaker 4: Britain was doing, because it really bothers me that people say, oh,

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Speaker 4: it's just a fight over a text on tea, and

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Speaker 4: they ignore that British colonial rule really was oppressive and tyrannical.

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Speaker 2: But that aside.

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Speaker 4: The reason I wrote Conscience of the Constitution is to

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Speaker 4: argue that the Declaration of Independence isn't just a piece

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Speaker 4: of political rhetoric. It's law. It's the law of the land.

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Speaker 4: It is as much the law as the Federal Constitution

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Speaker 4: itself is law. And we tend to kind of shrug

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Speaker 4: that aside for a couple of reasons. In fact, worse

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Speaker 4: than that, when Barrett was at her confirmation hearing, she

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Speaker 4: was directly asked, is the Declaration of Independence law? And

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Speaker 4: she answered no, Well, she would have flunked MI con

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Speaker 4: law class for some of that. The Declaration of Independence

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Speaker 4: is a statute. It was passed by the Continental Congress.

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Speaker 4: It's in the Statute Books, Volume one, page one of

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Speaker 4: the United States Code, Declaration of Independence.

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Speaker 2: And for good reason.

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Speaker 4: It sets forth the principles that make our government justify

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Speaker 4: that make it a legitimate government instead of just an

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Speaker 4: arbitrary rule. And those principles are equality of rights, individual liberty,

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Speaker 4: limited government, the people rule, and so forth.

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Speaker 3: How do you suppose somebody is learned and intelligent as

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Speaker 3: justice Barrett would come to that conclusion.

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Speaker 4: Well, so I mentioned earlier that a lot of our

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Speaker 4: conservative friends are so scared about judicial activism, and so

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Speaker 4: they think the way to fight back against judicial activism

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Speaker 4: is to say that judges are never supposed to draw

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Speaker 4: any kind.

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Speaker 2: Of moral or normative distinctions.

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Speaker 4: That judges are supposed to be just as Chief Tess

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Speaker 4: Robert said, we're just umpires calling balls and strikes. And

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Speaker 4: that theory is that the Constitution has no moral direction

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Speaker 4: to it, that it's just sort of this value neutral

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Speaker 4: framework for democracy, and that's not correct. The Declaration of

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Speaker 4: Independence tells us that the Constitution has a moral direction

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Speaker 4: to it, and that is that individual freedom is the

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Speaker 4: primary political value, not democracy. And today we're so propagandized

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Speaker 4: to to believe that democracy is the most important thing

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Speaker 4: about our system that we forget that, in fact, the

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Speaker 4: word democracy doesn't even appear in the Constitution of the

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Speaker 4: United States. On the contrary, the reason we have a

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Speaker 4: constitution is to limit democracy, to prioritize individual rights over

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Speaker 4: majority rule.

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Speaker 2: But because that seems to lead to judicial activism, a

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Speaker 2: lot of our.

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Speaker 4: Conservative lawyers and judges don't like the Declaration of Independence,

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Speaker 4: particularly Justice Scalia. Justice Scalia had this sort of fight

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Speaker 4: with Thomas over this issue.

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Speaker 2: Thomas is a pro Declaration.

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Speaker 4: Of Independence justice and Scalia was anti Declaration of Independence.

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Speaker 4: And the reason why was because Scalia thought it led

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Speaker 4: to judicial activism. And Justice Thomas believes, at least to

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Speaker 4: some degree, in natural rights, that there really are individual

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Speaker 4: rights and government must respect those in all cases. And

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Speaker 4: so there's a very interesting opinion. They were called Troxel

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Speaker 4: versus Granville, where Scalia agreed with Thomas except for two sentences,

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Speaker 4: and he specifically said he did not agree with those

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Speaker 4: two sentences, and those are the two sentences where Justice

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Speaker 4: Thomas quotes the Declaration of Independence. So it's really this

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Speaker 4: is not just a bunch of abstract theorizing. This relates

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Speaker 4: to how the government actually operates in daily, day to

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Speaker 4: day work. Whether you believe, really believe in the principles

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Speaker 4: of the declaration, or whether you just recite them without

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Speaker 4: thinking what they mean.

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Speaker 3: Right, And I certainly count myself among those who believe

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Speaker 3: in the principles fervently. I don't know exactly how to

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Speaker 3: ask this question, but on a practical level, you said,

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Speaker 3: you know, the Declaration is a law. The first Really,

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Speaker 3: on a practical level, as I look at the truths

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Speaker 3: that we hold to be self evident that all men

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Speaker 3: are created equal, that they aren't doubted by their creator,

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Speaker 3: with certain unalienable rights, among these life, liberty, and the

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Speaker 3: pursuit of happiness. Do I then look at everything that

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Speaker 3: happened after that through the lens of that declaration and

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Speaker 3: assess whether it holds true.

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Speaker 1: To those principles or not.

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Speaker 3: I mean, on a practical level, how do I use

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Speaker 3: the declaration as law?

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Speaker 4: Well, the declasion is a very broad law. A lot

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Speaker 4: of One of the things that this brings up an

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Speaker 4: interesting point. So a lot of the reason whylawyers or

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Speaker 4: judges say the decoration is not laws because they say, well,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't have any kind of.

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Speaker 2: An enforcement mechanism.

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Speaker 4: And usually laws say, you know, if you run the

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Speaker 4: stop sign, you'll get a ticket, you know, and there's

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Speaker 4: there's some sort of punishment involved.

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Speaker 2: But that not all laws do that.

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Speaker 4: Laws that say how you write a will or how

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Speaker 4: you get married, those the laws don't contain any kind

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Speaker 4: of punishment to them. And yet there's still laws, right

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Speaker 4: And in a lot of the time what law does

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Speaker 4: is it announces broad, abstract principles that the government should

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Speaker 4: aim at. For example, here's an example I use in

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Speaker 4: my in the book that's coming up soon, there's a

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Speaker 4: law that declares how the International Space Station program should operate,

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Speaker 4: and it says in there, in all cases, the government

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Speaker 4: shall prioritize the following considerations.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's that's still a law, right.

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Speaker 4: The generation of Independance is kind of like that. The

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Speaker 4: Declaration says everything the government does is legitimate only if

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Speaker 4: it respects the principles of almon are created, equal with

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Speaker 4: fundamental rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit.

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Speaker 2: Of happiness and so forth. And that's obviously.

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Speaker 4: The most important time that that was ever applied is

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Speaker 4: in the controversy over the Civil War, right in talking

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Speaker 4: about whether or not the Constitution guarantees slavery or not.

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Speaker 4: That turns on whether you think black people qualified as

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Speaker 4: part of the people of the United States as part

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Speaker 4: of the one people referred to in.

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Speaker 2: The Declaration of Independence.

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Speaker 4: And when you read Lincoln and Douglas and their debates

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Speaker 4: over the meaning of the Constitution and slavery, they're constantly

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Speaker 4: referring to the Declaration. The dread Scott opinion itself talks

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Speaker 4: about whether the Declaration of Independence means what it says,

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Speaker 4: So of course, this is a crucial element in analyzing

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Speaker 4: whether government is doing something justly, and that's why you

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Speaker 4: find the Declaration quoted in cases involving affirmative action programs

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Speaker 4: like the recent Harvard case. Just as Thomas says, the

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Speaker 4: Declaration of Independence is part of our law.

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Speaker 2: It says all men are created equal.

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Speaker 4: These kinds of racist government policies violate that principle.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, So I don't want to get hung up on

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Speaker 3: the point, and we need to take a break. But

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Speaker 3: so what would you say to somebody who's defending a

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Speaker 3: policy that you found to be antithetical to the themes

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Speaker 3: of the declaration? Would you declare it undeclarational or what

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Speaker 3: would do your objection sound like?

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Speaker 4: Maybe the Declaration informs how we interpret the Constitution, which

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Speaker 4: informs how we understand the law, and so it's kind of,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's like multiple layers here. So if a

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Speaker 4: question comes up about whether something violates the equal protection

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Speaker 4: of the laws, which the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution protects,

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Speaker 4: then we look back at what do we mean by

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Speaker 4: equal protection? Do we is it okay for government to

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Speaker 4: give some people an advantage over others based on the

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Speaker 4: color of their skin. Well, that turns on whether what

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Speaker 4: we what do we mean by the people of the United.

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Speaker 2: States who are citizens?

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Speaker 4: What is the substantive values that the law is protecting

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Speaker 4: and enforcing here and understand that we have to read

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Speaker 4: the declaration and understand also the context of declaration was

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Speaker 4: written in, which is the principles of classical liberal political

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Speaker 4: philosophy that underlie the American Revolution.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to get into that very thing, the origin

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Speaker 3: of the declaration, why was written? And why was written

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Speaker 3: the way it was in a moment or two. Tim Sandifer,

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Speaker 3: the Goldwater Institute. Much more to come an extended conversation

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Speaker 3: this hour with Tim Sanderfer, vice president for Legal Affairs

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Speaker 3: with the Goldwater Institute, about the Declaration of Independence. As

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Speaker 3: Independence Day approaches rapidly, Tim, this is a short segment,

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Speaker 3: and I hesitate to ask one of the big questions

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Speaker 3: in a short segment, but what the heck? Will get

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Speaker 3: started and see how it goes. Why was the Declaration

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Speaker 3: of Independence written? Why not just say I'm out listing

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Speaker 3: all those grievances. Did they just not want to make

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Speaker 3: King George mad?

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Speaker 1: Or what? What was the purpose?

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Speaker 4: So between the people, forget that the American Revolution was

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Speaker 4: a very long process. It actually began in seventeen sixty

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Speaker 4: four when Parliament passed law called the Sugar Act, which

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Speaker 4: was the first attempt by Parliament to impose taxes on

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Speaker 4: the colonies. And for over a decade there were these

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Speaker 4: angry disputes over Parliament's authority over the American colonies, and

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Speaker 4: Americans insisted that they were loyal to the King, but

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Speaker 4: not to Parliament. And they were very consistent about this,

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Speaker 4: that Parliament had no authority to.

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Speaker 2: Pass laws over them.

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Speaker 4: That's why Parliament isn't even mentioned in the declaration. Instead,

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Speaker 4: they used the phrase a jurisdiction. A power foreign to

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Speaker 4: our jurisdiction is the phrase they use. They don't even

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Speaker 4: want it to use Parliament's name in the Declaration of

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Speaker 4: Independence because they say it has never had any authority

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Speaker 4: over America. But the King started saying no, no, Parliament

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Speaker 4: is what governs the colonies. And so after years and

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Speaker 4: years of begging the king to change his mind, and

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Speaker 4: he kept ignoring them, finally he made He sent armies

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Speaker 4: to the United States started making war on Americans.

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Speaker 2: And so they said, all right, we're.

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Speaker 4: Done having any kind of loyalty to the king also,

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Speaker 4: and they had to issue a declar that explained why

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Speaker 4: and what they were fighting for. And so that's why

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Speaker 4: they wrote the declaration. But it was the last of

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Speaker 4: a long series of documents that explained the causes of

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Speaker 4: a dispute between America and Britain, you know. And so

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Speaker 4: you have to understand that history to get what they're

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Speaker 4: referring to when they list all their grievances against Parliament

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Speaker 4: and the King.

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Speaker 3: But it seems to me it was a message to

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Speaker 3: the Crown in Parliament. It was a message to other

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Speaker 3: countries who may or may not be helpful, and a

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Speaker 3: message to the American people as well.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and that last part is really important.

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Speaker 4: A lot of people overlook the fact that the Continental

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Speaker 4: Congress was speaking to Americans also. They weren't just speaking

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Speaker 4: to Britain, and they weren't just speaking to France and

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Speaker 4: other countries. They were explaining to Americans themselves what it

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Speaker 4: is we're fighting over. And that's why Jefferson tried to

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Speaker 4: put in a provision damning slavery as evil, because he thought,

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Speaker 4: maybe if I can sneak this provision in here, it

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Speaker 4: will sort of force Americans to view slavery as un

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Speaker 4: American and that would allow enable us to later abolish slavery,

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Speaker 4: and unfortunately that tactic didn't work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to get into that in particular next segment,

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Speaker 3: when we'll have a lot of time to stretch out.

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Speaker 3: But I think it's one of the more insidious lies

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Speaker 3: of for instance, the sixteen nineteen project that claims that

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Speaker 3: the country was founded on slavery and the founding fathers

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Speaker 3: were big fans of it. A lot of them spoke

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Speaker 3: openly of its evil and how they had to get

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Speaker 3: rid of it somehow.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

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Speaker 3: Tim Sanver of the Goldwater Institute on the line. We

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Speaker 3: are going to come back after a brief break full

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Speaker 3: of fascinating and helpful commercial messages and continue on our

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Speaker 3: discussion of the declaration of Independence. I want to get

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Speaker 3: into Thomas Jefferson's role, what got left out, who fought

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Speaker 3: for what, because like every process that's ever happened in

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Speaker 3: this country, it was full of bloody knuckles and differing

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Speaker 3: opinions and that sort of thing, which is why I

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Speaker 3: love this place so much. And Tim also mentioned that

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Speaker 3: he's working on a book soon to come out about

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Speaker 3: the Declaration of Independence. I'm for the anniversary thereof, so

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Speaker 3: we will discuss that and much more. Also get back

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Speaker 3: to some of the Supreme Court decisions and check in

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Speaker 3: with Jack from Sonny Humid, Florida. I think before long

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Speaker 3: stay with us.

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Speaker 1: Glad you're here. Thanks, Armstrong and Getty. Welcome.

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Speaker 3: Tim Sanderfers the vice president for Legal Affairs with the

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Speaker 3: Goldwater Institute, longtime friend of the Armstrong and Getty show.

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Speaker 3: And we're doing a slightly premature independence stage show just

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Speaker 3: because we are off next week and I really really

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Speaker 3: wanted to, so here we are. I was centering the

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Speaker 3: discussion i'd planned to around Tim's twenty fourteen book, The

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Speaker 3: Conscience of the Constitution, The Declaration of Independence, and the

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Speaker 3: Right to Liberty, But he unleashed on us the news

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Speaker 3: that you're working on a new book on a somewhat

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Speaker 3: similar topic.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I'm doing a book called Proclaiming Liberty, which is

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Speaker 4: about the writing of the Declaration, what it means, and

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Speaker 4: then you know, going clause by clause to the Declaration,

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Speaker 4: explaining what each of the references are, and then concludes

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Speaker 4: with sort of a my slap at the sixteen nineteen

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Speaker 4: project should be out in April of twenty twenty six

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Speaker 4: in Times for the bisis Sessquit Tenniel whatever they call.

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Speaker 3: Them, right right, Yeah, give the sixteen nineteen project a

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Speaker 3: good solid slap if you can. We mentioned just before

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Speaker 3: the break, Tim mentioned that Thomas Jefferson, who allegedly wrote

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Speaker 3: the Declaration of Independence, wanted a clause in there about

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Speaker 3: the need to eliminate slavery, which it runs so counter

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Speaker 3: to some of the woke narratives these days. First of all,

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Speaker 3: to what extent was this a solo writing project by

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Speaker 3: Thomas Jefferson?

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Speaker 1: And what else was fought over? What to leave in,

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Speaker 1: what to leave out? What should we know?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So it's a wonderful and complicated story, which I'll

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Speaker 4: get into in my book. But yes, Jefferson was the

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Speaker 4: primary draftsman on a committee of five, and really it

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Speaker 4: was primarily him. John Adams and Benjamin Franklin were primarily

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Speaker 4: responsible for Franklin was six, so he was working from

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Speaker 4: home and so they didn't really consult him very often,

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Speaker 4: and so it was primarily Jefferson and Adams, and Jefferson did.

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Speaker 2: The first draft.

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Speaker 4: He wrote it in about two weeks and you know,

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Speaker 4: got or two days, I'm sorry, and had it all

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Speaker 4: ready to present to them, and then they added and

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Speaker 4: took some things out, and then presented it to the

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Speaker 4: Congress as a whole, which then went over it all

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Speaker 4: over again, editing it, taking things out and putting things

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Speaker 4: and all that sort of stuff. And he had wanted

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Speaker 4: to include an attack on the slave trade. Jefferson when

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Speaker 4: he was he was already young. He was one of

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Speaker 4: the youngest members of the Continental Congress in seventy six.

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Speaker 4: But even before that he had been in his colonial legislature,

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Speaker 4: and he had tried to get laws passed restricting the

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Speaker 4: trade in slaves as a first step to attacking slavery itself.

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Speaker 4: And because you know, you got to get your camel's

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Speaker 4: nose under the tent, right, And that was the plan.

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Speaker 4: And that failed because the King issued in order saying

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Speaker 4: colonies made not pass any kinds of restrictions on the

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Speaker 4: importation of slaves, because he said, because that harmed the

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Speaker 4: profits of the Royal Africa Company, which was the Imperial

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Speaker 4: Slave Trade Corporation. And so when he got a chance

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Speaker 4: to write the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson says, well, I'm

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Speaker 4: going to include an attack on the King for blocking

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Speaker 4: our efforts to limit the slave trade. And what he

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Speaker 4: wrote was the single longest passage in the Declaration of

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Speaker 4: really passionate paragraphs. I mean, he's using all capital letters

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Speaker 4: and underlining things because he was really into this, and

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Speaker 4: he was partly hoping to persuade his fellow Americans to

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Speaker 4: see slavery as an evil thing that could be blamed

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Speaker 4: on Britain. Now today we say, oh, how silly for

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Speaker 4: him to blame Britain for providing Americans with slaves when

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Speaker 4: Americans bought slaves perfectly, happily.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's kind of true. But look at our own day.

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Speaker 2: Look what we do.

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Speaker 4: Today Nowadays, we blame oil companies for global warming. We

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Speaker 4: blame fast food companies for making us fat. We blame

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Speaker 4: tobacco companies for selling us cigarettes.

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Speaker 2: It's basically the same thing.

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Speaker 4: It's blaming the company for providing you with the evil thing.

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Speaker 4: As a matter of political rhetoric, it was just a

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Speaker 4: handy technique that Jefferson was trying to get away with,

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Speaker 4: and Adams and Franklin liked it, but unfortunately the rest

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Speaker 4: of the Congress did and they took it out. And

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Speaker 4: Jefferson was so upset about this that for years afterwards

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Speaker 4: he could. He sent copies of his original draft with

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Speaker 4: a bunch of friends and he said, didn't you think.

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Speaker 4: I think it's better the way I wrote it, And

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Speaker 4: even in his memoirs when he was retired, he did

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Speaker 4: the same thing. He put his original version in there

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Speaker 4: as a way of saying, look what I tried to

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Speaker 4: do and what they wouldn't let me do.

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Speaker 3: You know, obviously getting the southern colonies to go around

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Speaker 3: and go along and satified was it was an ever

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Speaker 3: present concern too, I would guess, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Because the most important thing, above all else was to

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Speaker 4: keep all of the colonies united. If one colony peeled

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Speaker 4: away and said well we're going to make a separate

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Speaker 4: priest with Britain, that would have been a disaster, because

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Speaker 4: then another colony, another colonue pretty soon there would be

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Speaker 4: no way of fighting back.

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Speaker 2: He gets written.

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Speaker 4: So no, South Carolina and Georgia, according to Jefferson, were

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Speaker 4: really anti really opposed to his anti slavery passage, and

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Speaker 4: a few of the northern states he said too. Oh,

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Speaker 4: he didn't say which ones, and so it was taken

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Speaker 4: out because he had to have unanimity. That was the

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Speaker 4: most important thing.

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Speaker 3: I'm so intrigued by your mention of Ben Franklin's role

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Speaker 3: in the process, though he was sick and it was

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Speaker 3: somewhat limited. I think most Americans have a view of

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Speaker 3: Ben as sort of a learned godfather of witty sayings

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Speaker 3: and occasional scientific discoveries. And then he went to France

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Speaker 3: and had a big party and represented us. But how

443
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 3: would you describe Franklin's role there in the very early

444
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 3: days pre declaration and post.

445
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,119
Speaker 4: And Franklin started out as a really as loving the

446
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 4: connection between England and America.

447
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 2: He thought that was really valuable and wonderful and important.

448
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 4: And he gradually came to see that Britain viewed the

449
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 4: colonies as subordinate and the colony and that Britain thought

450
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 4: of the colonists as their job was to work, pay

451
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 4: taxes and shut up. And that started to really great

452
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 4: on Franklin over the years, and eventually he became one

453
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 4: of the most intense throw independence guys. He was, you know,

454
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 4: famously disowned his own son, who was the royal governor

455
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 4: of the Colony of New Jersey, and disowned him for

456
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 4: siding with the king over America.

457
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: So this was not this is not just a lovely

458
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 2: grandfather figure. He was very passionate revolutionary.

459
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 3: Right, And I remember, I can't remember where it was

460
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 3: that I read about it, but I was somewhat surprised

461
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 3: to read of the overt, shameless bigotry of a lot

462
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 3: of Brits, and specifically British troops who came to pacify

463
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 3: the colonies. They actually looked at us quote unquote as

464
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 3: a bunch of loud, idiotic roubs.

465
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of the officers especially, and you know,

466
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 4: with some there is some legitimacy to that. I mean,

467
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 4: the Americans work country pumpkins. But on the other hand,

468
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 4: we were the ones doing the working and the fighting

469
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 4: and having to pay the taxes. And then have a

470
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 4: bunch of aristocrats who were sent over here a lot

471
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 4: of time, these, especially the royal governors who were sent

472
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 4: over to govern, A lot of them were just, you know,

473
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 4: some kind of aristocrat who had gone bankrupt and needed

474
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 4: to get away from his creditors and would come over

475
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 4: to America to rule for his own wealth.

476
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: I mean, the governor of Virginia was quite open.

477
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 4: Governor Dunmore was quite open about the fact that he

478
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 4: had come to America to make a fortune because he

479
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 4: needed money from the old country, you know. So, and

480
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 4: then a lot of time these governors wouldn't even come

481
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 4: to America. Virginia, for example, was governed by for almost

482
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 4: a decade by a governor who never even bothered to

483
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 4: visit Virginia. The British colonial policy was crazy and it

484
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 4: was very oppressive. You know, there was no freedom of speech.

485
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 4: You could be executed for expressing your political views in

486
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 4: a newspaper. Your property basically existed at the wheel of parliament.

487
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 4: If Parliament decided to take your stuff way, they claimed

488
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 4: literally absolute power. And in fact, that's the most important

489
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 4: thing that led to the revolution. Parliament passed a law

490
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 4: in seventeen sixty six called the Declaratory Act that said

491
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 4: that Parliament had the authority to legislate for the colonies

492
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 4: quote in all cases whatsoever end quote Wow, And that

493
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 4: ends up yeah, right, that line ends up in the

494
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 4: Declaration of Independence, because that's really the source of all

495
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 4: the other problems. Right, if they can legislate for us

496
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,959
Speaker 4: in all cases whatsoever, then your property rights and your

497
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 4: free speech rights and your freedom of religion counting, and

498
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 4: you really are a save.

499
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 3: If that's the case, what do you think is most

500
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 3: underappreciated about the Declaration of Independence.

501
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,959
Speaker 4: Oh, that's a great question. I think it's probably people

502
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 4: don't know what the grievances referred to they read. If

503
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 4: you read the declaration, it says, you know, it has

504
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 4: those beautiful opening paragraphs about Amini created equal to these things,

505
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 4: and then it lists the things that Britain has done,

506
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 4: and they're written in kind of general terms, like the

507
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 4: first one, you know, the king has he has refused

508
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 4: his assent to laws the most wholesome and necessary for

509
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 4: the public good.

510
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: And people don't know.

511
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 4: What they're talking about that day is and what it

512
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 4: is is actually Britain claim the King's deputy claimed the

513
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 4: authority to veto any colonial legislation. And they did this

514
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 4: a lot. I mean, for example, it was illegal to

515
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 4: get a divorce in the colonies. The colonies weren't allowed

516
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 4: to pass laws for divorce. You had to get the

517
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 4: king's own permission to get a divorce in colonial America.

518
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 4: But of course the most important one is laws banning

519
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 4: the slave trade.

520
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: The King said no to any of those.

521
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 4: People don't know this history, and it's starting to fade,

522
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 4: and that leads to this general impression of well, the

523
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 4: British rule over America wasn't really so bad? Well, were

524
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 4: the patriots were just a bunch of whiners? And this

525
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 4: which really ticks me.

526
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 3: Off right and also in the particulars I think, and

527
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 3: this gets back to the theme that we began with

528
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 3: that it's Tim's fervent belief that the Declaration of Independence

529
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 3: is indeed law in an important United States law founding

530
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 3: document in the truest sense as you get into the

531
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 3: particulars and work through them, and maybe Jefferson should have

532
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 3: had footnotes, but it further illustrates what sort of country

533
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 3: we did not want to be and what we wanted

534
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 3: to be in a fair amount of detail. Because it's

535
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: easy enough and sometimes funny to portray it as the

536
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 3: king's jerk and we don't want to be under him anymore.

537
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: We're going to start a new country.

538
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 3: But the thought of what sort of country was thought

539
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 3: out very very carefully.

540
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, there's a lot of political philosophy that's distilled

541
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 4: into the Declaration of Independence. And I mentioned that there

542
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 4: was well over a decade of political arguments that had

543
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 4: gone on before independence. There had been a First Continental Congress,

544
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 4: and they had also issued a declaration, and if you

545
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 4: read their declaration, they actually list by number the particular

546
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 4: parliamentary laws that they're objecting to, so they get into

547
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 4: a great deal of details. And there were pamphlets and

548
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 4: speeches that talked about to go philosophy, and Jefferson's distilling

549
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 4: this all down into a single page because he wants

550
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 4: it to be easy to read and understand. But we're

551
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 4: talking about ideas that go back to ancient Greece and

552
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 4: ancient Rome in the declaration, so to really get a

553
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 4: grasp of that, it requires a good deal of depth,

554
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 4: which you know, of course, our educational institutions don't give

555
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 4: students nowadays because we're all supposed to believe that the

556
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 4: Founders are just these evil white guys who wanted to

557
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 4: wanted independence because they wanted to perpetuate slavery, which is

558
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 4: a complete lie.

559
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 3: Of course, right forgive me if this is inaccurate, but

560
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 3: I think Jack mentioned that one of his sons knew

561
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: all about Sesar Chefz, who was an admirable fellow in

562
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 3: a lot of ways, but knew nothing about Thomas Jefferson,

563
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 3: which is, yeah, the.

564
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: Only thing people know about Jefferson is Sally Hemmings Noday.

565
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's your favorite Jefferson biography?

566
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 4: By the way, Alf Mapp m App he wrote two volumes.

567
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 4: The first one is called Thomas Jefferson A Strange Case

568
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 4: of Mistaken Identity, and the second volume is called Thomas

569
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 4: Jefferson Passionate Pilgrim. And that's my favorite biography if you

570
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 4: only want to one volume biography. I really like the

571
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 4: John Meachim biography that came out a few years ago.

572
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: The only thing wrong with it is the title.

573
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 4: It's called The Pursuit of Power, which is a crazy

574
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 4: title because Jefferson did not pursue power, and the book

575
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 4: makes clear that Jefferson did not pursue power. I don't

576
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 4: know why they called it that. Incidentally, talking about books,

577
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 4: I want to mention you. You know you mentioned about

578
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 4: the Declaration setting forth the ideas of the New Country.

579
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 4: So clearly there was a great book that came out

580
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 4: what thirty years ago now called The Radicalism of the

581
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 4: American Revolution by a historian named Gordon Wood. And it

582
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 4: is a hugely important book, very famous in history circles

583
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 4: because it shows just how rapidly and extensively the idea

584
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 4: of equality transformed American culture that within a single lifetime,

585
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 4: people went from a sleepy colonial society where you know,

586
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 4: you had to take your hat off to somebody who

587
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 4: was higher than you on the socials ladder to a

588
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 4: bustling industrial country with railroads and democracy and all these

589
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 4: sort of thing. And it's a very It really tells

590
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 4: the story beautifully, and I would really strongly recommend it

591
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 4: because a lot of people think, oh, well it was

592
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 4: you know, it was a very conservative revolution.

593
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 2: It wasn't. It was a radical revolution in many ways.

594
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: Great.

595
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 3: I hear the audience shouting, wait, wait, I'm trying to

596
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 3: write this down. So Tim, if you could text that

597
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 3: to me, your executive producer Hanson, we will post it

598
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 3: at Armstrong and getdy dot com so you can find

599
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 3: it easily. One more segment with Tim Sandafer the Goldwater

600
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: Institute coming up.

601
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: Stay with us.

602
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 3: The final segment with Tim Sandifer of the Goldwater Institute.

603
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 3: It's our Independence Day show a little bit early and Tim,

604
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: one of the main reasons I wanted to do this

605
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 3: is I've come to believe that the idea of liberty

606
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: has become like the furniture the background of our national discussions.

607
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 3: We've got the people and the food, and there's a

608
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 3: TV going in the corner, and sometimes somebody mentions liberty.

609
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: But we don't teach it.

610
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: We don't teach enthusiasm for it, reverence for it. I

611
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 3: think maybe it's my generation that's at fault. We just

612
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 3: assumed that everybody would always love liberty and want to

613
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 3: defend it, and I've become convinced that's not the case.

614
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: And so I've become a bit of a zelot for

615
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 3: trying to do that. So thanks for helping. We're talking

616
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 3: about you.

617
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 2: Thank you.

618
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, goodness. I try to stop me. But we've

619
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 3: been talking about the Declaration of Independence. Excited to hear

620
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 3: that Tim has a book on that topic coming out

621
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 3: before too terribly long. My daughter went to undergrad at

622
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 3: George Mason University, and I knew the name, and I thought, oh,

623
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 3: George Mason, and I'd started doing some reading and realized

624
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 3: that he, in my mind, is one of your great

625
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 3: underrated founding fathers. Who are your favorite underrated founding fathers?

626
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 4: Well, I would agree with you about not enough people

627
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 4: knowing about George Mason. He was the author of the

628
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 4: very first Declaration of Rights or the very first Bill

629
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 4: of Rights in America, the Virginia of Rights, and he

630
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 4: was the mentor of George Washington and an elder statesman

631
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 4: that Jefferson and all the others looked up to a

632
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 4: really great years ago, I was at a conference in Washington, DC.

633
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: This is when I was in college.

634
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 4: As a conference, it was a week long conference, but

635
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 4: we had one day off to go explore a town.

636
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 4: And so I came down that morning and I'm sitting

637
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 4: at the breakfast table and a bunch of these other

638
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 4: college students sitting around, and Uh, I was planning on

639
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 4: going to George Mason's house, which is just a little

640
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 4: south of Washington, d C. And I hear them talking

641
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 4: about what they're going to do, and I'm just sitting

642
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 4: there quietly. I hear one of them say, where are

643
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 4: you gonna Where are you gonna go? And the other

644
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 4: one said, I'm going to Uh, I'm going to go

645
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 4: to Jamestown. And I thought, wow, that's that's kind of far.

646
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 4: And then the first one says, well, what's that and

647
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 4: the other one says, that's where the Pilgrims landed. So

648
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 4: I had to I said I'm sorry. I said, I'm sorry,

649
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 4: But the pilgrims landed in Massachusetts. You're thinking of Jamestown

650
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 4: is is is quite a distance from here, and I

651
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 4: don't think you could really get there in time. And

652
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 4: they go, wow, you really know this stuff. Where are

653
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 4: you going to go? And I said, well, I'm going

654
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 4: to Gunston Hall blank blank stairs. I said that that

655
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 4: was George Mason's house, blank stairs. And one of them,

656
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 4: one of them turns to the other says, I'm really embarrassed.

657
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 4: I don't know who George Mason was. I go to

658
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 4: George Mason University. So I made them go with me.

659
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 4: I ordered them to come with me, and we all

660
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 4: three went down to see Gunston Hall.

661
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: Oh that's great, all right? Who else?

662
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 4: My other favorite totally unknown founding Father's got named Heim

663
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 4: Solomon H.

664
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: J Y M. Solomon.

665
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 4: He was a Polish Jew who came to America and

666
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 4: became a financier and was a spy for the for

667
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 4: the Patriots. Was captured twice by the British for spying

668
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 4: and managed to escape, and later on became a prominent

669
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 4: banker and lender who helped to finance the Revolution, in

670
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,239
Speaker 4: part by by directly paying people like James Madison when

671
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 4: they weren't getting their paychecks from from home, you know,

672
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 4: mail was slow, so he would just give them money

673
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 4: to pay their rent. He died bankrupt because he gave

674
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 4: away all of his money to the American cause. There's

675
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,719
Speaker 4: a statue of him in Chicago, and he you know,

676
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 4: and he was very much of the view that America,

677
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 4: because of religious freedom, was the promised land for Jews.

678
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 4: And I'm getting moved even talking about.

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00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: It because he was. He was a great hero we

680
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: all should remember.

681
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, that is fantastic in moving. This stuff is

682
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 3: not over studied. It's understudied and underappreciated, especially now. Tim,

683
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for the time, and back to work

684
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 3: on that dang book. Years. I know you have so

685
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 3: little ready to do what for advocating for liberty with

686
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 3: the Goldwater Institute. Tim, great to talk to you. Best

687
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 3: to the missus and we will talk again soon.

688
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: Thank you, see you later.

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00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 1: All right. Yep.

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00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 3: Jack is going to join us in the next hour

691
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: from Florida. I think I think they're already there on vacation,

692
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 3: but he is. He already has stories to tell, probably

693
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 3: alligator related. I'm looking forward to that. If you happen

694
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 3: to not get our four of the show, or you

695
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 3: got to go do something.

696
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: That's fine. Just subscribe to our podcast, Armstrong and Getty.

697
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 3: On demand and the radio show is available to you

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00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 3: whenever you want it. We'll also hit some of the

699
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 3: news of the day because there's a good bit of it.

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00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: And goodness knows, whatever comes. Oh, Clips of the Week.

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00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: We have a super bonus Clips of the Week for

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00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 3: you to kick off next hour. Stay tuned if you can.

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00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 3: Tom McClintock, Congressman, will join us as well. Armstrong and

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00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: Getty