1
00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,800
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keane Jay Ley.

2
00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,560
Speaker 1: We bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment,

3
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:23,520
Speaker 1: and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

4
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:32,200
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg Self.

5
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,199
Speaker 1: Caane back in the studio with me here in New

6
00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,440
Speaker 1: York City. Very plase to say that. Mark Shannon joins us.

7
00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:37,680
Speaker 1: You've got a new shop. Mark, just talk to me

8
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,560
Speaker 1: about what you're up to now. Yeah. So I recently

9
00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,680
Speaker 1: joined our Bannockburn Global Foreign Exchange, which is based in Cincinnati.

10
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,919
Speaker 1: They specialize financial services private equity midsize corporates. I'll get

11
00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:49,800
Speaker 1: to do a lot of the same kind of thing

12
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,159
Speaker 1: that I do analyzing the global capital markets, but for

13
00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,680
Speaker 1: a different client base, more private equity corporations, as opposed

14
00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:58,600
Speaker 1: to where I was before, where I'd be focusing more

15
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:00,680
Speaker 1: on the asset managers. Talked to me about what you

16
00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,440
Speaker 1: tell them about the mess that's emerging in Europe. Once again,

17
00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 1: it's kind of a classic European confrontation between populace and

18
00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,559
Speaker 1: this time in Italy, and between unelected officials in the

19
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,479
Speaker 1: European Union. We have the finance minister Germanic tria Um

20
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,000
Speaker 1: go up against some of the other finance ministers in Europe.

21
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,640
Speaker 1: In the last twenty four hours his country's fiscal push

22
00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,600
Speaker 1: meeting a European Commission head that compared what was happening

23
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,280
Speaker 1: to taken us towards a Greek style crisis. Yeah, I

24
00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,399
Speaker 1: think it's a bit over the topic. That's younger for you.

25
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,280
Speaker 1: I think he often has these kind of over the

26
00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,520
Speaker 1: top type of comments. I do think that there is

27
00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,960
Speaker 1: a confrontation brewing, but I'm not sure it's really going

28
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,920
Speaker 1: to be on the on the level of Greece. I

29
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,160
Speaker 1: think that both the Italians have learned something, but also

30
00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,280
Speaker 1: the EU has learned something from Greece, and that is

31
00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,720
Speaker 1: that the fiscal austerity could be counter productive. And I

32
00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,400
Speaker 1: was saying before, is that what I think that Italy

33
00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,680
Speaker 1: needs the most is growth and can and that means

34
00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 1: that Austeria might not help growth because here's what really happened.

35
00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,040
Speaker 1: When you look at the different charts and you compare

36
00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,720
Speaker 1: what happened in Italy, growth is really the deficit. That

37
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,680
Speaker 1: is to say that they really under forming in growth.

38
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,640
Speaker 1: And if this new fiscal plan can help stimulate growth

39
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,080
Speaker 1: by having a flatter tax for something like a million

40
00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,040
Speaker 1: households fifteen percent tax, and if they can have some

41
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,880
Speaker 1: more social spending the ideas that can lift growth and

42
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,959
Speaker 1: thereby reducing the debt to GDP through stronger growth. The

43
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,440
Speaker 1: market right now is not pricing a positive outcome. We

44
00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,359
Speaker 1: haven't had a day of games for the euro since

45
00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:22,760
Speaker 1: last Tuesday, so it's been about a week. Has just

46
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,079
Speaker 1: been weaker Euro story bleeding through. Italian bonds are taking

47
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,040
Speaker 1: a bit of pain as well. The class half full

48
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,680
Speaker 1: approach to all of this is that maybe the moves

49
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,400
Speaker 1: outside of Italian bonds are mild. Maybe the moves outside

50
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,880
Speaker 1: of Italy are mild. But the glass half empty approach

51
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,680
Speaker 1: to all of this is that correlations are picking up,

52
00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,440
Speaker 1: and you can see the correlations picking up with Italy

53
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,440
Speaker 1: and what's happening in Italy? Does that concern you? Concerned me?

54
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,520
Speaker 1: But I would really tell the story a little bit differently.

55
00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,639
Speaker 1: The key thing I think that made the dollar turn

56
00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:50,840
Speaker 1: last week was not what was going on in Italy

57
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:52,680
Speaker 1: that didn't happen until the very end of the week.

58
00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,440
Speaker 1: Would happen was a Federal Reserve met and confirmed that

59
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,320
Speaker 1: they will not only tighten another time in December this year,

60
00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,040
Speaker 1: but they're sticking with three hikes new next year, and

61
00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:02,600
Speaker 1: the e c B says, sorry, we're not gonna be

62
00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 1: able to raise rates until the end of next summer

63
00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,959
Speaker 1: at the earliest, and the Bank of Japan seems nowhere

64
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:08,960
Speaker 1: near close to raising interest rates. So I think that

65
00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,359
Speaker 1: what the Federal Reserve did was singnal the continued divergence.

66
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,720
Speaker 1: And then the other factor that I would about to

67
00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,080
Speaker 1: put as part of this story is the huge ralliant

68
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,840
Speaker 1: oil prices another leg up today, and this is because

69
00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,160
Speaker 1: I primarily supply concerns, and here's you know, people are

70
00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,360
Speaker 1: talking about how Trump is succeeding with his tactics with

71
00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 1: South Korea NAFTA two point oh, but one area that

72
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,680
Speaker 1: has been very successful is getting countries to participate in

73
00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,840
Speaker 1: this embargo when it's not just countries around Iran, but

74
00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,680
Speaker 1: we're talking about France and the Netherlands cutting back on

75
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,000
Speaker 1: their oil from from the Iranians a month ahead of time.

76
00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,520
Speaker 1: And so I think that the supply concerns, So what's

77
00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,800
Speaker 1: the problem here? Strong dollar because of fed higher oil prices,

78
00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 1: wagon emerging markets, and the Italian story. I mean, is

79
00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,720
Speaker 1: Chairman Paul's central banker to the world, central banker to

80
00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,360
Speaker 1: emerging markets, but it's also sent banker to the oil cartel.

81
00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,280
Speaker 1: I mean again the professor, he alluded to that in

82
00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,720
Speaker 1: the press conference. Maybe we'll talk more about it in

83
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,520
Speaker 1: speech today at the National Association for Business. But he

84
00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,320
Speaker 1: is central banker to all these interplaying features, isn't he. Well,

85
00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,360
Speaker 1: I I don't know if he'd say he's central banker

86
00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:20,120
Speaker 1: to that, but I would say, is that what happens

87
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,200
Speaker 1: in the US still matters for a lot of these

88
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,039
Speaker 1: contest I mean, it does not have to take into

89
00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,960
Speaker 1: account what happens to Saudi politics as a Saudi real

90
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 1: when it makes policy. I mean, John, let me do this.

91
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:35,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you know how how on what I'm doing brand?

92
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,279
Speaker 1: I'm trying to bring it up here just a log

93
00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,520
Speaker 1: chart of of of brand and I'm sorry, since the

94
00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,040
Speaker 1: middle of August, it's a straight line up. Yeah, I mean,

95
00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,640
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of persistence to the trend. Is

96
00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,279
Speaker 1: this drip drip going on? It's like the Chinese water

97
00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,920
Speaker 1: torture on emerging markets. And what it is is a

98
00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,839
Speaker 1: stronger royal price, stronger dollar and just the heel to

99
00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,880
Speaker 1: the United States just keep climbing, and the Federal was

100
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,560
Speaker 1: of is not backing away from great hikes. Do you

101
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,400
Speaker 1: have a more constructive view on AM with that as

102
00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,920
Speaker 1: your backdrop? Unfortunately it's difficult to write I think so,

103
00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,719
Speaker 1: I think that, But here's what it gives me the

104
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,359
Speaker 1: idea though, that why I think I'm still pretty negative

105
00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,920
Speaker 1: on EM. It's not just because of these macro forces,

106
00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,039
Speaker 1: but every so often I hear from my emerging market

107
00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,120
Speaker 1: analysts and context that time to pick a bottom. And

108
00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,400
Speaker 1: so we just had one of those phases, maybe it

109
00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,240
Speaker 1: was about three or four weeks ago where the emerging

110
00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:27,960
Speaker 1: where a lot of these emerging market alliss said, oh,

111
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,120
Speaker 1: we're cheap value now, so let's uh, emerging markets are goodbye,

112
00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:33,760
Speaker 1: and so the same thing with Italian bonds. I think

113
00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,080
Speaker 1: it was one of the largest asset managers had had

114
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,080
Speaker 1: up there up there portfolio investment in Italian bonds just

115
00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,000
Speaker 1: for just in time for this to happen. But there

116
00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,360
Speaker 1: is a price of the story. In the price of

117
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,360
Speaker 1: the story in the m has got pretty cheap. And

118
00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,120
Speaker 1: within sort of emerging markets, you've had some pretty aggressive

119
00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,279
Speaker 1: rallies and pockets of emerging markets in various securities, various

120
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,760
Speaker 1: foreign exchange markets, various currencies, and Mark there must be

121
00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,960
Speaker 1: some opportunities there that you've identified. There are opportunities, but

122
00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,080
Speaker 1: from from from my point of view, I think medium

123
00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,160
Speaker 1: term investors, it's too early to go back into emerging markets.

124
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,640
Speaker 1: You say, well, there's value there. I say, yes, there's value,

125
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,080
Speaker 1: but it's going to give be more value shortly. Well,

126
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:11,640
Speaker 1: I guess it depends what how you wear and give

127
00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 1: you a short term sort of FX trade to date trade,

128
00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,160
Speaker 1: and then maybe there's some opportunities out there. You're thinking

129
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,400
Speaker 1: more about digging a hole and starting a business in

130
00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 1: some of these countries at the moment, Mark, I would

131
00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,200
Speaker 1: put I I take your point that for short term

132
00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,080
Speaker 1: traders there there's I mean, there's enough volatility and emerging

133
00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,800
Speaker 1: market currencies to have a short short term punt. But

134
00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,279
Speaker 1: for long term people are thinking about their pension funds,

135
00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,200
Speaker 1: people are thinking about endowments. I think too early for

136
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,800
Speaker 1: emerging markets. I'd be more comfortable maybe the middle of

137
00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:40,479
Speaker 1: next year, but I think the Federal Reserve will be

138
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,240
Speaker 1: darned nearly done with the great hikes. Mark Chandler grant

139
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,680
Speaker 1: To can't shove the Banic Burnt Global for X, Chief

140
00:06:45,680 --> 00:07:00,640
Speaker 1: market strategist and managing partner. Some of our guests are deceptive.

141
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,360
Speaker 1: They like to drive things down to simple concepts, usually

142
00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:11,360
Speaker 1: simple concepts that provide couraging crisis, that provide UH, the

143
00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 1: ability to be in the market when you should be

144
00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,240
Speaker 1: in the market, and even if there's pain, you're there

145
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,280
Speaker 1: and you're organized. But what is very deceptive is underneath

146
00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,400
Speaker 1: the simplicity, there's a lot of first order principles in

147
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,760
Speaker 1: a lot of academics. He's out of Lehigh University, out

148
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,480
Speaker 1: of Wharton, UH, and he's not only a c f A,

149
00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,640
Speaker 1: but also very cool a certified public accountant as well,

150
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,960
Speaker 1: and that would be Robert Dahl of Duvin Bob. I

151
00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,680
Speaker 1: mean c f A, c p A. What how did

152
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,400
Speaker 1: your brain get through that? I mean, I've never gotten

153
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,880
Speaker 1: debits and credits, right, I guess I have nothing else

154
00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:52,760
Speaker 1: better to do but read a book and study and

155
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,520
Speaker 1: take it. That's my friend. Well, it's a very cool

156
00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,960
Speaker 1: set of academics around it. Take the academics now to

157
00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,200
Speaker 1: this market at it. I mean in terms of like

158
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,960
Speaker 1: like cap em and all the rest of the mumbo jumbo.

159
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 1: How do you stay in this market. You stay in

160
00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:13,239
Speaker 1: because you recognize that we've got an amazing earnings profile. Yes,

161
00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,080
Speaker 1: for the Bears, it's a decelerating but it's still gonna

162
00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,840
Speaker 1: be plus twenty instead of plus twenty five. That's all

163
00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,280
Speaker 1: pretty good news. Um. Look, they're gonna be bumps along

164
00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,280
Speaker 1: the way. Valuation is no longer cheap. We've got a

165
00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 1: little competition. We're getting little expensive versus the rest of

166
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 1: the world. So you know these things that will bite

167
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,960
Speaker 1: at the edges, I think without question, But you still

168
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,160
Speaker 1: want to be there. This bullmark is okay, Okay, fancy guy.

169
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 1: Let's John, let's dazzle people here with the y intercept

170
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,880
Speaker 1: on the y axis. Okay, I'm talking to Courtney down

171
00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,000
Speaker 1: to Georgetown and we're talking lord linear cap M theory.

172
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,600
Speaker 1: The fact is it's hinged on a straight line, sitting

173
00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,880
Speaker 1: on the Y axis, and that is the anchor called

174
00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,480
Speaker 1: the risk free rate. I think a lot of our

175
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,160
Speaker 1: our listeners understand the risk free rate. Bob dal do

176
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,880
Speaker 1: you have a clue where the risk free raiders? Does

177
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,360
Speaker 1: Jerome Powell know where the risk free rate is? I

178
00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:11,679
Speaker 1: think no one knows, and it does seem to be

179
00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,600
Speaker 1: moving around. Um, and we're getting closer to it. That's

180
00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,000
Speaker 1: why the Fed conversations are getting harder. We've been in

181
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,360
Speaker 1: a period for the last couple of years, as you know,

182
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,200
Speaker 1: where um, the Feds in the process of normalizing, so

183
00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,680
Speaker 1: you know, next meeting, they're gonna meet and they're gonna

184
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,000
Speaker 1: raise rates next meeting, and then went on or on.

185
00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,079
Speaker 1: We're getting to the point now we're approaching neutral, whatever

186
00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,360
Speaker 1: that number is, and therefore these conversations get a little tougher.

187
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,280
Speaker 1: What told to me about the competition for capital that

188
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,520
Speaker 1: just comes from vanilla generic tea bills two more than

189
00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,360
Speaker 1: on a one month tea bill a five year note

190
00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,040
Speaker 1: now with a yield of almost three percent? Bob, is

191
00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:50,959
Speaker 1: there some real competition for capital in a white that

192
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,200
Speaker 1: it wasn't twelve months ago. Yeah, it's emerging competition. Look,

193
00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,760
Speaker 1: I think I'll get better than that in the stock market.

194
00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,880
Speaker 1: But the number you gave me is no longer zero.

195
00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,439
Speaker 1: You know, it was a while where where cash returned

196
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,439
Speaker 1: close to zero and I could get a two percent

197
00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,200
Speaker 1: yield in the stock market, plus capital appreciation as earnings

198
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,080
Speaker 1: came through. And we're beginning to creep in with some

199
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,360
Speaker 1: other conversations it's not the only asset in town anymore. Well,

200
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,640
Speaker 1: let's talk about the portfolio construction then, Bob, and coming forward,

201
00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,840
Speaker 1: Tom talks about the risk free Right, there's some real

202
00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:26,840
Speaker 1: talk that the risk might be in the risk free asset,

203
00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,400
Speaker 1: which is the treasury market, another bond market as well.

204
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,200
Speaker 1: And then the next down to maybe they won't offer

205
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 1: you that hedge, bobbab we are we having that discussion now?

206
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,520
Speaker 1: Is it's still too early to have that discussion. I

207
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,440
Speaker 1: think it's early because I can't see a recession out

208
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,400
Speaker 1: my window. Um, you know, we'll get another recession, but

209
00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,720
Speaker 1: I'm enjoying and trying to figure out where to be

210
00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,800
Speaker 1: where the earnings are going to come from. But yeah,

211
00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,080
Speaker 1: we're unlikely to get in the next downturn, returns on

212
00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,560
Speaker 1: cash like we typically do. Rates will peek at a

213
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,760
Speaker 1: lower level than we're used to. All they say, Bob Doll,

214
00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,360
Speaker 1: if you look outside Bob Doll's window, he's got checked

215
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:11,600
Speaker 1: up the ibbots and chart back to up X. But

216
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,640
Speaker 1: to that point, Bob and the one of the most

217
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,719
Speaker 1: famous good morning Mr Ibbots and Professor Ibbotson. If you're

218
00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,280
Speaker 1: listening up Yale, Bob Doll, what's really serious here is

219
00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,840
Speaker 1: we've forgotten what a correction is. We've got we've forgotten

220
00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,439
Speaker 1: what a bear market is explained to our audience. Where

221
00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,200
Speaker 1: part of the game is you have to withstand the

222
00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,120
Speaker 1: emotion of bear markets. You and I haven't had that

223
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,880
Speaker 1: conversation in about fourteen and a half years now. We haven't, thankfully,

224
00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,640
Speaker 1: we haven't had to the bottom line and the most

225
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,240
Speaker 1: simple way to put his thocks do go down um,

226
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,920
Speaker 1: and it's usually accompanied by, uh, some sort of problem

227
00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 1: with the economy, which I repeat is not visible yet,

228
00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,120
Speaker 1: but we will get there. And uh, you have to

229
00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:55,760
Speaker 1: know what you own. You have to know what your

230
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 1: time frame is. You know, somebody said to me recently,

231
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,240
Speaker 1: you know, can you tell me what to buy um

232
00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,560
Speaker 1: if my time horizon is to the end of the year,

233
00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:08,640
Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, cash, because because in lots of

234
00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,360
Speaker 1: short term period stocks go down. Um. You'll look at

235
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,240
Speaker 1: those same ibits and charts and you look at the

236
00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 1: annual numbers and you'll find out stocks go down um

237
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,600
Speaker 1: more than of the years um. So we are so

238
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,880
Speaker 1: so spoiled because it's been such a beautiful ride. And

239
00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,080
Speaker 1: it brings to mind financial advisors some who say, you know,

240
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,400
Speaker 1: I'm just buying the index fun or I'm just buying

241
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:37,439
Speaker 1: the ETF because they're safe. This word is really important.

242
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,160
Speaker 1: John Farrells spoiled. It's unfortunately accurate. I'm as guilty of

243
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,959
Speaker 1: it as anyone all of us. I mean, we've had

244
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:49,319
Speaker 1: six straight years of valuation appreciation. He's going up six

245
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,520
Speaker 1: straight years. We're breaking that trend this year. Six in

246
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,840
Speaker 1: a row has never happened before. The fixes back to

247
00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 1: oh no, what a world. Yeah, I'm just a round

248
00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,240
Speaker 1: thing down, even though I've come back and forth on

249
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,120
Speaker 1: this before. There's a difference between peat margins and peak markets.

250
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,400
Speaker 1: Is that something that you're kind of pushing the clients

251
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,800
Speaker 1: at the moment as well? Yes, yes, yes, I hear

252
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 1: a lot of bearish people say, well, peak earnings, we've

253
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,120
Speaker 1: grown twenty five percent, that's going to decelerate. Therefore I

254
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:22,080
Speaker 1: should sell stock careful. If plus twenty five earnings goes

255
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,000
Speaker 1: to minus five, yes, sell some stocks. But if we're

256
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,000
Speaker 1: going from place to plus twenty, not so fast. Can

257
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,040
Speaker 1: you own the banks here, and Mr Doll, I can.

258
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:36,400
Speaker 1: Here's my problem. They're still so over owned and overbelieved. Yes,

259
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,120
Speaker 1: they're pretty cheap. Yes, the fundamentals are reasonably good. They're

260
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,880
Speaker 1: not perfect, but there as they've been since the first

261
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,720
Speaker 1: of the year, overbelieved and overall. I can't get out

262
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,920
Speaker 1: of a meeting with a bunch of financial advisors where

263
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,800
Speaker 1: they don't ask what about the banks? I need that

264
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,360
Speaker 1: question to stop being asked before I can really get interested.

265
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,559
Speaker 1: Bob Doll, thank you so much, greatly appreciate it. With

266
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:10,400
Speaker 1: vine Ford, you know, it's for them to say that

267
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 1: about the hurricanes is a big deal. It's got to

268
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:14,400
Speaker 1: be a huge to tell people. This is about the

269
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,760
Speaker 1: decline in sales last month eleven percent down versus the

270
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:23,280
Speaker 1: estimate for nine Once again, Ford Motor September, US vehicle

271
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:29,320
Speaker 1: sales decline eleven point two seventy F series trucks made.

272
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 1: And you wonder how much of that has made in Canada,

273
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,560
Speaker 1: how much is made in Mexico or the United States?

274
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:41,760
Speaker 1: Trade yesterday Here is Christine Leguard. The impact is there already.

275
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,280
Speaker 1: And if you think of, you know, the the the

276
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,000
Speaker 1: impact that all the measures that have been floating around

277
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,160
Speaker 1: would have on global growth, then you're really talking about

278
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 1: a major risk that would impact particularly China, because it's

279
00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,040
Speaker 1: obviously one of the targets and the main target, but

280
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 1: also all the other countries that are part of the

281
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,400
Speaker 1: supply chain or that provide raw materials. So you're talking

282
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:11,520
Speaker 1: about emerging market economies and many low income countries as well.

283
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:16,320
Speaker 1: Were a lot of the hardship and the difficult decisions,

284
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,920
Speaker 1: and the financing is so badly needed. You know, how

285
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,680
Speaker 1: can we advocate domestic revenue mobilization in countries of sub

286
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,960
Speaker 1: Saria and Africa if they can no longer participate in

287
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:33,800
Speaker 1: trade or supply chain organizations because of the threat applying

288
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,800
Speaker 1: to trade at large, the larger threat. And to bring

289
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,840
Speaker 1: it to this weekend in Canada and the United States,

290
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,040
Speaker 1: the U S m c A. I read to write

291
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,400
Speaker 1: it down here, it's such a new phrase for me,

292
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,520
Speaker 1: and I understand becomes Y m c A. It's US

293
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,440
Speaker 1: okay within this and within U S m c A.

294
00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:00,960
Speaker 1: Now I got the song in my head. Now I'm

295
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,000
Speaker 1: not going to dance. That won't work out. And I

296
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,960
Speaker 1: would take um if I look at US m c

297
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,520
Speaker 1: A and I look at the dictate of what President

298
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 1: Trump is very clearly advocated. It is an effort that

299
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,760
Speaker 1: brings in Canada, brings in Mexico, and I don't want

300
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,320
Speaker 1: to get you in trouble. You're gonna ask, did Canada

301
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,480
Speaker 1: and Mexico came into the rhetoric of President Trump? And

302
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,640
Speaker 1: is that something we're going to see in the coming

303
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,520
Speaker 1: years as a president looks at multilateral and brings it

304
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,160
Speaker 1: over to a unilateral approach. You know, It's it's hard

305
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,960
Speaker 1: for me to say and to make any comment about

306
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,120
Speaker 1: the agreement because we haven't had a chance to review

307
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,760
Speaker 1: It's I've read the same articles as you, but it's

308
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,640
Speaker 1: been in the making for thirteen months, so it's it's

309
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,240
Speaker 1: it's obvious that there must have been back and forth

310
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,800
Speaker 1: bargaining trade off and that's it's the whole point about negotiations.

311
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,560
Speaker 1: Two things that I'm quite pleased about. One is um

312
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 1: it ex ists, and to have this tree lateral agreement

313
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,000
Speaker 1: trilateral agreement between Mexico, US and Canada, is I think

314
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,320
Speaker 1: a very positive I'm encouraged with that because not so

315
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,760
Speaker 1: long ago, many but many of us were in fear

316
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 1: that there would be nothing. So there is an agreement.

317
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,159
Speaker 1: Number one. Number two, what I hear is that the

318
00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,960
Speaker 1: services are also partly or entirely I don't know. I

319
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 1: haven't read it yet. Covered and I think that is

320
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,200
Speaker 1: really showing the way that TPP, for instance, was was doing,

321
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 1: in other words, expanding beyond the products that cross borders

322
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,280
Speaker 1: to services that also do, but not physically because many

323
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,159
Speaker 1: of them are are digital. There is a lot of

324
00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 1: upside to be had from services being included in the

325
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:53,040
Speaker 1: reduction of barriers. Christian Leaguard at the International Monetary Phone PIM,

326
00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,840
Speaker 1: this was a really interesting meeting. This was the kickoff

327
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,960
Speaker 1: to their annual meeting in Indonesia in three years. It's

328
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,639
Speaker 1: in Marrakech, with Indonesian authorities in the front row in

329
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 1: their embassy as well, of course, shattered by the earth

330
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,960
Speaker 1: by natural disaster. We're literally in the in the green

331
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,440
Speaker 1: room in the back, and the Ambassador of Indonesia sentence

332
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 1: regrets because he had an emergency meeting with their foreign

333
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,760
Speaker 1: minister as well. So there was a whole overlay of emotion.

334
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,280
Speaker 1: And you had one part the i m F brass

335
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,600
Speaker 1: one part i m F staffers, and also a lot

336
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,600
Speaker 1: of Bloomberg surveillance guests and hosts in Economics and Politics

337
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,960
Speaker 1: of Washington, Douglas Holds Econ among others of the CBO

338
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:43,920
Speaker 1: there listening for the nuances you know the speech, Um,

339
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 1: they're listening there for one or two sentences of what's

340
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,040
Speaker 1: the tone towards the world economic outlook next week? And

341
00:18:50,040 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 1: of course her thoughts on all this trade issue, film

342
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: Flis and Tom Keane on Amazon, and on the state

343
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 1: of our labor economy. Without question, our interview of the day,

344
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 1: if not of the week, is Alan Krueger of Princeton University.

345
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,399
Speaker 1: I put him in a category with a Nobel laureate

346
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,320
Speaker 1: Michael Spence, in that there's an exceptionally broad spectrum of

347
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 1: economics and social studies that Professor Krueger does, but he

348
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:31,159
Speaker 1: is definitive Card and Krueger on the minimum wage, Alan Krueger,

349
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,680
Speaker 1: were you surprised at Jeff Bezos set a fifteen dollar

350
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,639
Speaker 1: minimum wage level for Amazon nationwide. I think he did

351
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,680
Speaker 1: the right thing. Um. I think what Amazon has done

352
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,919
Speaker 1: is what one expects of a responsible large company, especially

353
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 1: at a time and the economy is doing so well.

354
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,719
Speaker 1: I think this is also an indication that wages are

355
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,800
Speaker 1: determined by more than just the blying demand, that companies

356
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,880
Speaker 1: have a lot of discretion over how much they pay

357
00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 1: their workers. Within this, Alan, is that maxim and the

358
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 1: fear that if you raise the minimum wage, all other

359
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 1: wages grow up, go up rather and labor and employer's

360
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,960
Speaker 1: lose control of their income. Statement, is that a legitimate fear,

361
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,720
Speaker 1: Whether it's a success of Amazon or it's a mom

362
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 1: and pop shop in New Jersey barely getting by well,

363
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 1: I think it's a sign of a healthy economy that

364
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 1: we're going to see wages rise. Wages are gradually picking

365
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 1: up flower than you would expect given the unemployment rate

366
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,800
Speaker 1: below four percent, And of course you need to balance.

367
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 1: You don't want wages to be so high that it

368
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,120
Speaker 1: puts businesses out of business. But I don't think we're

369
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,680
Speaker 1: at much risk of that right now. Alan Cruger, could

370
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,400
Speaker 1: you share with people a little anecdote or story about

371
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,399
Speaker 1: your work comparing restaurant jobs in New Jersey and Pennsylvania

372
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,439
Speaker 1: and what you learned. Sure, what David cart and I

373
00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 1: discovered twenty five years ago was that the traditional UH

374
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 1: supply and demand model at I was taught, that I

375
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 1: taught my students is much more complicated in real life,

376
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 1: and study after study has found that minimum wage increases

377
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,879
Speaker 1: don't reliably have an adverse effect unemployment. The job markets

378
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 1: much more complicated when employers pay higher wages, they have

379
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,640
Speaker 1: lower turnover, they have higher productivity, they find it easier

380
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,399
Speaker 1: to recruit workers and fill vacancies, and these effects can

381
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 1: offset the traditional demand side law of demand effect of

382
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 1: a higher wage, possibly putting downward pressure on employment. If

383
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 1: that's the case, why don't you see a revision in

384
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:46,440
Speaker 1: the way experts and economists who advised the government, Why

385
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 1: don't they revise their description of what a minimum wage

386
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: increase would do. I think this is one error where

387
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: we have seen major change in the economics profession and

388
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 1: in public policy since our work. The governments in the

389
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,919
Speaker 1: UK and Germany have imposed nationwide minimum wages substantially above

390
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 1: the US level. I think the way the minimum wages

391
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,959
Speaker 1: presented in textbooks is much more balanced now, much more

392
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 1: even handed. Explains that the job market is not perfectly competitive,

393
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 1: that employers have market power, that bargaining power, monopsony power,

394
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 1: the ability of companies to have disgression over wages influences

395
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: the job market. Professor, as you do so well. You

396
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 1: mentioned the word which is a confusing word, folks. This

397
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: is how you move from a B minus to a

398
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: C minus under Krueger and economics is try to tackle

399
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 1: monopsony okay Alan. It's a rubber plantation in Singapore where

400
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: the British plantation owner controls the price, the labor wage

401
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 1: and everything of all the people pulling the rubber out

402
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,199
Speaker 1: of the trees. That's the classic British model. Bring that

403
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: over to America now, where we read the stories and

404
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 1: the fabulous stories uh in the Atlantic magazine about the

405
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: gig economy, about moving cardboard boxes around Manhattan, about Uber

406
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: and all that. Is the gig economy so much an

407
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,199
Speaker 1: atomization of labor that it's going to drive us to

408
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: a new minimum wage ethos. Well, I think the gig

409
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 1: economy is more competitive than uh, say, an Amazon fulfillment center,

410
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: more competitive in the sense that there's much easier entry

411
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: and exit. But the gig economy is still maybe one

412
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 1: percent of employment in the US. I think it's uh

413
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: not even the tail wagging the dog. It's it's um

414
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: barely having an impact on the aggregate economy. What's much

415
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: more important. Our companies like Walmart and Amazon the largest employers,

416
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: and they have kind of a moat around them, you know,

417
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: they are a bit of an island to themselves, and

418
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 1: they have the ability to uh influence how much the

419
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,959
Speaker 1: workers are paid. They're not just passively taking so at

420
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: least is critical in the new technology. In my michaelmbusians

421
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 1: capture by one or two large players. They have monopximistic

422
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: tendencies where Amazon or Apple or others control the wage

423
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 1: because there's no alternative job. Is that true. I think

424
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 1: that there's limited alternative jobs. It's costly for workers to

425
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: make make a move. You know, the fact that Amazon

426
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 1: did this by setting a minimum wage is fascinating because

427
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: they could have said, we're just going to raise wages

428
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 1: across the board by tem percent, that's what the competitive

429
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: market is. But this is broader than sort of tailoring

430
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: wages to the competitive market. This is UH saying we're

431
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: going to be a responsible employer. We think the low

432
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: wage workers deserve a higher higher income um and I

433
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: think one of the reasons they weren't having that higher

434
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,719
Speaker 1: income in the past is because companies have stronger bargaining

435
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: power over their workers. Alan Kruger just quickly immigration. Do

436
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts on how immigration affects wages and unemployment,

437
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: especially when the labor markets type. Immigration is an important

438
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: source of labor supply, especially in some fields like construction,

439
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: and I worry that we're going to start to see

440
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: some bottlenecks in the US economy because we're changing our

441
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: immigration policy and making it much more restrictive. Alan Krueger,

442
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Look for much more on his professor.

443
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: Krueger of Princeton University. Of course, always helping us out

444
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 1: on matters of economics. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

445
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 1: Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

446
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: or whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at

447
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: Tom Keane before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide.

448
00:25:50,000 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: I'm Bloomberg Radio