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Speaker 1: Pushkin. As the sun sinks, the trees cast long shadows

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Speaker 1: across the countryside of Kent at the southeast tip of England. Blackbirds, robins,

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Speaker 1: song thrush and woodpigeons join the dusk chorus. But they're

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Speaker 1: not the only ones gathering. On the evening of Sunday,

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Speaker 1: the twenty seventh of May eighteen thirty eight, over one

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Speaker 1: hundred people, all from nearby hamlets, are standing in the

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Speaker 1: lane on the edge of a little village named Dunkirk.

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Speaker 1: Some climb onto fences and carts to get a better view.

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Speaker 1: The air is electric with anticipation. Earlier today, most of

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Speaker 1: them stood at the rear of the church for the

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Speaker 1: Sunday service, too poor and lowly to have a seat

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Speaker 1: for two hours. They stood men in clean white smocks

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Speaker 1: or Sunday jackets, women wearing their best shawls and bonnets.

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Speaker 1: How their backs and feet ached as the Reverend Handly,

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Speaker 1: Vicar of Herne Hill, gave his uninspiring sermon, And yet

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Speaker 1: here they are waiting to hear from another man of God.

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Speaker 1: Health to the poor. Toasts Sir William Courtney, as the

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Speaker 1: crowd raises glasses of beer in return. Dressed in somber black.

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Speaker 1: Sir William removes his wide rimmed hat, ready to preach.

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Speaker 1: He's clutching a pocket Bible in his hand, not that

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Speaker 1: he needs it to quote the Epistle of Saint James.

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Speaker 1: Go to now, ye rich men, weep, and how for

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Speaker 1: you your miseries that shall come upon you. Court and

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Speaker 1: his followers hang on every word as he goes on

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Speaker 1: to a site job Chapter twenty from Memory. Because he

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Speaker 1: hath oppressed, and hath forsaken the poor, because he hath

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Speaker 1: violently taken away and house which he build it. Not

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Speaker 1: God shall cast the fury of his wrath upon him.

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Speaker 1: The heavens shall reveal his iniquity, and the earth shall

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Speaker 1: rise up against him. The audience of poor laborers like

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Speaker 1: the sound of that they scrape a living from the

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Speaker 1: earth while the gentry own it. In the fading light

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Speaker 1: of that cool Sabbath evening, Sir William Courtney tells the

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Speaker 1: crowd to carry on as normal tomorrow, but to join

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Speaker 1: him again on Tuesday to prepare for what lay ahead.

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Speaker 1: Sir William's most devoted disciples believe him to be the

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Speaker 1: Messiah and will willingly follow him into the last battle

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Speaker 1: fought on English soil. I'm Tim Harford and you're listening

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Speaker 1: to Cautionary Tales. Sir William Percy Honeywood Courtney was the

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Speaker 1: ninth Earl of Devon. He caused a scandal in his

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Speaker 1: teens for a homosexual affair with a Gothic novelist, and

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Speaker 1: left England in a teen eleven to escape creditors. But

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Speaker 1: William Courtney was not the man who had addressed the

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Speaker 1: crowd of peasants on Sunday, the twenty seventh of May

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Speaker 1: eighteen thirty eight. The man claiming to be William Courtney,

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Speaker 1: the rightful Earl of Devon and heir to Powderham Castle,

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Speaker 1: was in fact a former wine merchant who'd spent time

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Speaker 1: in prison and an asylum, and stood for Parliament. Along

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Speaker 1: the way. Here to tell us all about him is

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Speaker 1: Ian breckan author of Mad Tom's Rising, the Revolutionary mystic

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Speaker 1: Sir William Courtney, and The Last Battle Fought on English Soil. Ian,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Cautionnary Dales. Hello, before we get too far

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Speaker 1: into this incredible story, I just wanted you to paint

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Speaker 1: us a picture of England. At the time, the late

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Speaker 1: eighteen thirties. It was a time of social ferment, really.

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Speaker 2: It certainly was. Yeah, I think we need to go

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Speaker 2: back a little bit earlier than that, though, right back

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Speaker 2: to the beginning of that decade, the beginning of the

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Speaker 2: eighteen thirties, because this was a tremendously turbulent time in

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Speaker 2: the history of England. It was the time of the

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Speaker 2: Great Reform Act, it was the time of the New

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Speaker 2: Poor Law. It was a time of rioting and uproar

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Speaker 2: across the country. There were huge uprisings in Bristol and Derby,

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Speaker 2: many other towns and cities, mainly connected to the demands

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Speaker 2: for political reform initially and a widening of the electorate.

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Speaker 2: But as the decade went on, that initial uproar continued

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Speaker 2: into other fields. There were the Swing riots, which began

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Speaker 2: in Kent and were focused on opposition to the mechanization

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Speaker 2: in the countryside. They were very violent, swept across the country.

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Speaker 2: There was arson, people being threatened in their homes, machines

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Speaker 2: being broken, but that violence continued then throughout the decade,

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Speaker 2: particularly in the rural areas which were very depressed. They

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Speaker 2: were very run down. Parish relief in particular, which many

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Speaker 2: families relied on for a living during the winter months

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Speaker 2: outside of the harvest season was being overhauled by the

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Speaker 2: new Whig government that came in after the Great Reform Act,

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Speaker 2: and that led to further rioting, particularly again in Kent,

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Speaker 2: these same districts. This was in eighteen thirty five. So

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Speaker 2: really these areas, these rural areas were primed for uproar,

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Speaker 2: they were primed for revolt. And even though each successive

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Speaker 2: revolt had been beaten down by a mixture of legal

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Speaker 2: temporizing and military action, there was still a lot of

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Speaker 2: resentment and a lot of fear about the way things

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Speaker 2: were changing, the way that this traditional rural way of

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Speaker 2: life was coming to an end.

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Speaker 1: And into this powder keg was the spark, calling himself

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Speaker 1: Sir William Courtney in your book you call this gentleman

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Speaker 1: the impostor. You need to give him that nickname because

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Speaker 1: he keeps changing his name. What was his alias when

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Speaker 1: he first arrived in Canton, Well.

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Speaker 2: When he first appeared in Canterbury and around September eighteen

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Speaker 2: thirty two, he claimed that his name was Count Moses

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Speaker 2: Rossopcheen rothschild Well. This was the name that he spread

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Speaker 2: around Canterbury in any case, and he appeared to be

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Speaker 2: probably a foreigner, perhaps Jewish, maybe from some eastern land.

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Speaker 2: He had a very exotic appearance. In any case, he

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Speaker 2: wore extraordinary clothes of red velvet and gold, and a

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Speaker 2: big hat. He had this big beard and long hair.

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Speaker 2: He seemed to have what onlook has described as a

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Speaker 2: dusky complexion and an exotic foreign accent. So he definitely

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Speaker 2: seemed to be a strange character from far away. And

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Speaker 2: it was also rumored to be very rich. Yes, he

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Speaker 2: claimed to be very rich. Yes, But then he hears

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Speaker 2: that Sir John Courtney Honeywood, the fifth Baronet of Evington

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Speaker 2: and the former Sheriff of Kent, had died, and that

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Speaker 2: gives him a kind of opening, it does. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think what had happened was that this local nobleman died

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Speaker 2: somewhere close to Canterbury, and his valet, a man called Collard,

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Speaker 2: somehow came into possession of his wardrobe or certain items

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Speaker 2: of his wardrobe, and traveled to Canterbury and put them

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Speaker 2: up for sale.

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Speaker 1: So he then buys these trinkets, these clothes, and a

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Speaker 1: sword and so on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he bought a pair of court epaulets, a sword,

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Speaker 2: various medals and bits and pieces. But he also bought

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Speaker 2: a new identity, because after this, having assembled this new

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Speaker 2: wardrobe and also briefly taken on the services of the

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Speaker 2: Valet Collard, he revealed himself to be, in fact Sir

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Speaker 2: William Percy Honeywood Courtney, Earl of Devon, Knight of Malta,

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Speaker 2: King of Jerusalem, King of the Gypsies.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, that escalated quickly, so and well, how did

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Speaker 1: he account for the fact that he had previously called

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Speaker 1: himself Count Moses a Rostopschai and Rothschild.

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Speaker 2: He seems to have made out that this was just

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Speaker 2: an alias that he'd had to adopt because he came

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Speaker 2: with an extraordinary backstory, which he slowly revealed to his

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Speaker 2: fascinated audience, that he'd had to conceal his identity because

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Speaker 2: various members of his family, including members of the upper

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Speaker 2: aristocracy and the royalty, were plotting against him. They were

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Speaker 2: plotting to defraud him in some way, and he had

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Speaker 2: been forced to return to England under cover from exotic

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Speaker 2: distant lands to reclaim his birthright. And it was a

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Speaker 2: bit of a kind of a romantic story that appealed

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Speaker 2: to a lot of people, because people in those days

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Speaker 2: were just as excited as they are now by stories

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Speaker 2: of conspiracy in the upper echelons of society.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean people seem to love the story. They

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Speaker 1: seemed to like him. He got invited to all the parties,

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Speaker 1: Everyone enjoyed his company. When you're that popular, then of

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Speaker 1: course the next thing you might want to do is

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Speaker 1: stand in an election. So he stands in the election

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Speaker 1: of eighteen thirty two as Sir William. What was he promising?

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Speaker 2: He was promising the earth. Basically, in those days, electoral

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Speaker 2: culture was still very bombastic, very rambunctious. Everyone was a populist. Essentially.

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Speaker 2: There wasn't a sort of professional politician.

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Speaker 1: You did have parties that you had the Whigs and

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Speaker 1: the tourists. Yeah, so which one was he standing for? Well,

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Speaker 1: he wasn't standing for either. The two sitting candidates in Canterbury,

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Speaker 1: because there were two candidates for each seat were both Wigs.

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Speaker 1: This was the Liberal Reformist Party who had pushed through

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Speaker 1: the Great Reformat, and so popular had they become that

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Speaker 1: they'd won the previous election uncontested and the Tories weren't

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Speaker 1: really up to pulling up a candidate against them. So

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Speaker 1: when this mysterious Maverick stranger popped up saying that he

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Speaker 1: wanted to stand for parliament as well. The local Tory

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Speaker 1: party were very pleased. They got behind him quite a lot,

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Speaker 1: and actually I think a lot of the votes that

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Speaker 1: he attracted were said to have been Tory voters who

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Speaker 1: didn't have anyone else to vote for. Well, he promised

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Speaker 1: I read a return to the good old days of

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Speaker 1: roast beef and mutton and plenty of prime nut brown ale,

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Speaker 1: which I think is calculated to appeal to any Tory vote.

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Speaker 1: Did many voters?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So what was his campaigning strategy? What did he look

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Speaker 1: like on the stump?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean he looked extraordinary on the stump, because

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Speaker 2: but he was still wearing this amazing costume that he'd

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Speaker 2: put together, this velvet and gold costume with big chunky

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Speaker 2: epaulets and a scimitar that he carried around with him,

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Speaker 2: and his big beard and his long hair, and he

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Speaker 2: took to standing on the balcony of his hotel shouting

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Speaker 2: speeches to the crowd below and throwing coins down to them.

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Speaker 2: And basically his platform was what might seem to us

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Speaker 2: a strange combination of intense utopian socialism, really collectivizing everything

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Speaker 2: taking all the tax from the poor and putting it

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Speaker 2: on the shoulders of the rich. He would often talk

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Speaker 2: about the patrimony of the poor and say it's an

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Speaker 2: abomination in the eyes of God that the poor had

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Speaker 2: denied their rights. But then he would combine that with

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Speaker 2: this intense kind of ultra patriotism, this kind of flag

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Speaker 2: waving and you know, the British Lion must arise and

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Speaker 2: all this sort of thing, which sounds to us quite

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Speaker 2: right wing. So it's a strange combination, but I think

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Speaker 2: in the political culture of the times, it would have

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Speaker 2: seemed quite recognizable.

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Speaker 1: So how did he do in the election?

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Speaker 2: Well, initially he seemed to be doing quite well because

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Speaker 2: he was able to attract a very large crowd who

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Speaker 2: followed him around the streets of Canterbury, hanging on his

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Speaker 2: every word. Unfortunately, most of this crowd were relatively poor

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Speaker 2: people who didn't have the vote. Even though the Great

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Speaker 2: Reformat had gone through, the vote was still restricted to

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Speaker 2: about ten percent of the population, just under twenty percent

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Speaker 2: of the male population, so his vote share was actually

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Speaker 2: comparatively small. He got between three hundred and four hundred

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Speaker 2: votes compared to the eight hundred or so gained by

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Speaker 2: each of the two week candidates, so.

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Speaker 1: Respectable but not really close to winning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and his follower was treated as if he had won.

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Speaker 2: They pulled him about the streets of Canterbury and his

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Speaker 2: carriage singing rule Britannia and fating him to the skies.

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Speaker 1: And he then follows this up by setting up his

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Speaker 1: own newspaper, The Lion tell Us about that.

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Speaker 2: It was a kind of pamphlet, really, a compilation of

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Speaker 2: his political and social and religious ideas. These copies of

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Speaker 2: The Lion, they're very densely printed, quite hard to read

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Speaker 2: at times, but they do sound fairly sensible. They don't

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Speaker 2: necessarily sound like the ravings of a madman. It's a

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Speaker 2: combination of what at the time was fairly standard political

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Speaker 2: radicalism about taking away tithes, reforming parliament, that kind of thing,

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Speaker 2: combined with a growing religiosity. But it was rather a

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Speaker 2: sporadic publication because in the middle of his print run

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Speaker 2: he was suddenly arrested and thrown in jail.

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Speaker 1: Ah, okay, how did that happen?

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Speaker 2: Well, initially it was for swindling the one of the

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Speaker 2: waiters in swindling. No quite no, he was actually charged

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Speaker 2: with swindling.

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Speaker 1: I realized, I have no idea what swindling actually is.

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Speaker 1: It's just a generic term for some kind of mischief.

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Speaker 1: What is swindling?

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Speaker 2: He had been staying in a hotel called The Rose

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Speaker 2: in Canterbury when he was going around saying that he

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Speaker 2: was Count Rothschild and so forth. He made out that

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Speaker 2: he was very rich or would shortly be very rich

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Speaker 2: as soon as he got hold of his inheritance, and

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Speaker 2: in the process borrowed an awful lot of money off

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Speaker 2: various people. After he'd moved out of the Rose and

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Speaker 2: had lost the election, of course, one of these people

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Speaker 2: decided to come forward and say, hang on a minute,

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Speaker 2: where's my money. This was a waiter at the hotel,

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Speaker 2: and he was actually followed by a number of other people, including,

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Speaker 2: funnily enough, Collard, the former valet who'd sold him the

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Speaker 2: various costume items.

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Speaker 1: So swindling is borrowing money under false pretenses and not

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Speaker 1: paying it back pretty much, okay, good, good to know.

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Speaker 1: And on top of the swindling charge, he gets involved

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Speaker 1: in another court case involving smuggling. But he wasn't smuggling.

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Speaker 2: No, he'd given evidence in the trial of some smugglers

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Speaker 2: in Rochester. This was around the time that he was

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Speaker 2: trying to broaden his base really to include anyone who

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Speaker 2: might be considered oppressed, and he was very impressed himself

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Speaker 2: with smugglers, who he regarded as heroes because they were

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Speaker 2: opponents of taxation.

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Speaker 1: Noble conscientious objectives absolutely love it. Yes, So he'd rushed

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Speaker 1: over to Rochester to give slightly fascical evidence in this

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Speaker 1: trial of the smugglers, claiming that he had been at

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Speaker 1: sea himself at the time and had seen them not

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Speaker 1: doing any smuggling. But this was thrown out by the court,

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Speaker 1: and sometime later he was revealed to have perjured.

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Speaker 2: Himself in court. A local clergyman revealed that he had

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Speaker 2: been in church at the time he claimed to have

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Speaker 2: been at sea.

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Speaker 1: Is perjury worse than swindling?

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Speaker 2: It is? Yes, giving false evidence in court was considered

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Speaker 2: a very serious crime, indeed.

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Speaker 1: Right, And so what was the sentence?

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Speaker 2: Well, after he was found guilty of perjury, he was

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Speaker 2: sentenced to three months in Maidstone jail, followed by seven

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Speaker 2: years transportation to Australia.

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Speaker 1: Just after the perjury trial, the editor of a local

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Speaker 1: newspaper published a hand printed bill which declared Sir William

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Speaker 1: Courtney's real character discovered. His lady and brother in law

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Speaker 1: have positively identified him, and after the break, Ian is

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Speaker 1: going to tell me who Sir William really was. We

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Speaker 1: are back. I'm Tim Harford and I'm speaking to Ian Breckan,

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Speaker 1: the author of Mad Tom's Rising. So, Ian, we have

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Speaker 1: charted the checkered career of the impostor. He adopted one identity,

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Speaker 1: then he adopted another, the identity of Sir William Courtney.

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Speaker 1: And now this pamphlet is circulating saying that his true

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Speaker 1: identity has been revealed. So what was his identity and

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Speaker 1: how did it come to be discovered?

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Speaker 2: Oh, his true identity was John Nichols Tom, a man

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Speaker 2: from Cornwall who would lived most of his life in

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Speaker 2: Truro as a wine merchant and maltster.

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Speaker 1: And for those who are not familiar with the geography

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Speaker 1: of England, basically Cornwall's the opposite end from Kent's, the

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Speaker 1: far southwest rather than the southeast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, grown up down there, he had a family there,

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Speaker 2: he had a wife down there, and around the age

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Speaker 2: of thirty or thirty one he had had a mental

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Speaker 2: health episode which remains a little bit cloudy in our sources,

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Speaker 2: it's described as either monomania or congestion of the brain,

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Speaker 2: these extraordinary Victorian terms, or pre Victorian slightly. He was

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Speaker 2: treated by a couple of local doctors who weren't able

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Speaker 2: to do very much other than shave his head, which

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Speaker 2: to yeah, it was a sort of common treatment at

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Speaker 2: the time, and his family believed that he had actually

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Speaker 2: got better after that. But what actually happened to him

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Speaker 2: is one of the great mysteries of this story. He

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Speaker 2: actually goes up to Liverpool with a cargo of malt

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Speaker 2: This is in I think about March eighteen thirty two,

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Speaker 2: turns up again several months later in Canterbury September eighteen

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Speaker 2: thirty two, and he's turned into somebody completely different. He's

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Speaker 2: not only adopted this other persona but he seems to

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Speaker 2: have become a different person. He's become this incredible, bombastic,

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Speaker 2: charismatic auror her. And after this trial in Maidstone, after

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Speaker 2: he had been imprisoned and sentenced to transportation, his family

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Speaker 2: actually caught up with him.

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Speaker 1: So what then, There's this guy who has been sentenced

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Speaker 1: to transportation to Australia who calls himself Sir William Courtney,

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Speaker 1: this woman, Catherine Tom of Truro shows up and says, actually,

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Speaker 1: this is my husband. What do the authorities make of

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Speaker 1: all that?

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Speaker 2: Well, initially they seem to be rather unwilling to let

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Speaker 2: this missus Catherine Tom see this prisoner who they believe

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Speaker 2: is called Sir William Courtney. But eventually she and her

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Speaker 2: brother in law I believe, are allowed to visit him,

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Speaker 2: and they confront him essentially and say, look, you are

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Speaker 2: John Nichols Tom. You're my husband. You're not this Sir

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Speaker 2: William Courtney character. Why don't you confess who you really are.

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Speaker 2: He refuses to concede that he is, in fact John

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Speaker 2: Nichols Tom. He insists on his identity.

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Speaker 1: They so, he says, he's Sir William Courtney. Absolutely sorry,

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Speaker 1: absolutely so then what do they send him to Australia

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Speaker 1: or not?

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Speaker 2: No, what their family do is managed to persuade the

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Speaker 2: prison doctors that he is actually insane, because there was

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Speaker 2: a law of the time that if anyone should be

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Speaker 2: found to be insane, they can be transferred from a

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Speaker 2: prison to a mental asylum right and he's transferred to

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Speaker 2: Kent County Lunatic Asylum at barming Heath.

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Speaker 1: The good news for Sir William aka John Nichols Tom

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Speaker 1: is that he doesn't languish there forever. He is pardoned

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Speaker 1: by Queen Victoria herself and released. So was he cured

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Speaker 1: at that point.

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Speaker 2: Well not really. No, he had been in this lunatic

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Speaker 2: asign for three years, really, and over the course of

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Speaker 2: these three years he had been pretty much unchanged. Still

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Speaker 2: maintained his identity as Sir William Courtney, still a Knight

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Speaker 2: of Malta exactly, still the heir to Powderham Cast. Absolutely yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: but he was released on the request of his family. Actually,

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Speaker 2: Queen Victoria just come to the throne and they wrote

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Speaker 2: to the Home Secretary and said, can you let my husband,

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Speaker 2: my son in law, various family members wrote out of

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Speaker 2: this asylum because he's better now. A will look after

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Speaker 2: him and you know, everything will be great. And they

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Speaker 2: decided to go for this, which seems strange to us

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Speaker 2: because the asylum superintendent actually still believed that he was insane.

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Speaker 1: Yes, well, whether or not he's insane, he's released. And

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Speaker 1: then a friend of his basically says, I'll take care

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Speaker 1: of him.

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Speaker 2: This was a man called George Francis, who was a

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Speaker 2: local yeoman farmer who John Tom had already greatly impressed.

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Speaker 2: During the period between his election campaigns and his imprisonment,

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Speaker 2: he'd been touring around the countryside of northeast Kent, speaking

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Speaker 2: to an awful lot of people and impressing them with

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Speaker 2: his religiosity, his great learning, his extraordinary exotic foreign travels.

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Speaker 2: And this man, George Francis, was one of them. He

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Speaker 2: owned a farm called Fairbrook close to Herne Hill, and

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Speaker 2: this man, George Francis, was the one who took him

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Speaker 2: in when he was released from the asylum. He shouldn't

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Speaker 2: have been. Actually he was supposed to have been delivered

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Speaker 2: into the care of his family, but because he refused

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Speaker 2: to accept that he was John Nichols Tom and insisted

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Speaker 2: that he was instead Sir William Courtney.

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Speaker 1: Still still working on getting his land and money back.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, and this is one of the reasons why

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Speaker 2: George Francis was eager to take him in, because he

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Speaker 2: was promising him extraordinary rewards once he got his riches back.

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Speaker 1: And I understand he also promised that he was going

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Speaker 1: to keep out of politics. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, George Francis subsequently said that he had made Sir

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Speaker 2: William as he still called him, promised that he would

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Speaker 2: not involve himself with politics and would not address mobs.

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Speaker 1: How did that go?

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Speaker 2: It didn't go very well at all, Very very rapidly,

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Speaker 2: this new house guest of his was touring the surrounding area,

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Speaker 2: talking to local laboring people in their cottages and indeed

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Speaker 2: addressing mobs.

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Speaker 1: Right, So, who's in these mobs? Who is finding him interesting?

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Speaker 1: He's roaming around, he's given these barnstorming sermons or speecheares

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Speaker 1: who's in the audience.

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Speaker 2: They all came from a very small area of North Kent,

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Speaker 2: these two parishes, herne Hill and Bourton, and this neighboring

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Speaker 2: extra parochial district as it was called, of Dunkirk. Most

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Speaker 2: of them were related to each other. These were mainly

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Speaker 2: laboring families. Some of his supporters were actually slightly more prosperous.

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Speaker 2: They were landowners, small farmers, but all of them were

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Speaker 2: from what were called at the time the laboring classes.

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Speaker 1: We heard him at the beginning of our conversation quoting

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Speaker 1: biblical passages that had a kind of a political and

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Speaker 1: economic resonance. But I'm curious the people who are listening

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Speaker 1: to him, are they thinking this guy's a political leader

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Speaker 1: I can follow, or are they thinking this is a

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Speaker 1: religious great man.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a mixture of both. What we'd probably

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Speaker 2: need to think about, first of all, is how deeply

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Speaker 2: saturated everything was by religion, by Christianity at this point.

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Speaker 2: So even families who were illiterate, they still had prayer books,

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Speaker 2: books of psalms, They had quite cheaply copied pictures of

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Speaker 2: biblical scenes stuck to the walls of their cottages. They

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Speaker 2: went to church every Sunday, and religion was the highest

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Speaker 2: authority for them. So when this man appeared amongst them,

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Speaker 2: this extraordinary charismatic stranger, who was able to recite great

396
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Speaker 2: tracks from the Bible from memory, apparently, who was able

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Speaker 2: to speak to them about things that they were concerned about,

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Speaker 2: things that involved their lives and their livelihoods, but framing

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Speaker 2: it in this religious, biblical language that they instantly recognized

400
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Speaker 2: as having authority. Of course they were going to be

401
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Speaker 2: impressed by him. He had a small body of what

402
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Speaker 2: we might call disciples, his closest followers, and it was

403
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Speaker 2: them who were kind of disseminating this idea of his

404
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Speaker 2: divine status amongst all of their neighbors.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the Millenarians, the Postmeninarians, the pre millenarians.

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Speaker 1: What is the religious backdrop again? As I were saying,

407
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Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties were a very politically febrile era. They

408
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Speaker 1: were also quite religiously turbulent as well, and there were

409
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Speaker 1: many people, even quite mainstream people, who held ideas which

410
00:24:07,930 --> 00:24:11,690
Speaker 1: we might consider to be the pretty fringe, which at

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Speaker 1: the time were not considered that way at all. And

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Speaker 1: one of them was the idea of the approaching Millennium,

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Speaker 1: which was a biblical term meaning essentially the end of

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Speaker 1: the world. It was the beginning of the reign of

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Speaker 1: Christ and his saints, which would last for a thousand years.

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Speaker 1: It was heralded by the Millennium itself, also known as

417
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Speaker 1: the Day of Judgment, and would end with the apocalypse,

418
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Speaker 1: and many people, including members of Parliament, ministers of state,

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Speaker 1: members of the aristocracy, believed firmly that this was about

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Speaker 1: to happen any moment now within their lifetime. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's extraordinary because some of this sounds almost medieval. But

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Speaker 1: at this very moment there are steam trains running between

423
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Speaker 1: Manchester and Liverpool. The Industrial Revolution has been in full

424
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Speaker 1: swing for half a century or more modernity is coming.

425
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Speaker 1: And yet you've got this guy wandering around the Kent countryside,

426
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Speaker 1: and some of his followers genuinely think this is the

427
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Speaker 1: second Coming. Extraordinary.

428
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Speaker 2: Yeah, they think that he can work miracles, that he

429
00:25:09,370 --> 00:25:11,210
Speaker 2: has told them that he can work miracles, and they're

430
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Speaker 2: prepared to believe it. He says that he can shoot

431
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Speaker 2: the stars down from the sky, that he can be

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Speaker 2: in several different places at once, that he can hear

433
00:25:18,490 --> 00:25:21,730
Speaker 2: conversations over a mile away, that he can change shape,

434
00:25:21,970 --> 00:25:24,890
Speaker 2: that he can kill a thousand people simply by striking

435
00:25:25,050 --> 00:25:27,450
Speaker 2: one hand against the bicep of his other arm. This

436
00:25:27,570 --> 00:25:28,930
Speaker 2: kind of thing. He also says he came from the

437
00:25:28,970 --> 00:25:29,810
Speaker 2: sky on a cloud.

438
00:25:30,370 --> 00:25:33,850
Speaker 1: The other thing he tells them on this Sunday evening

439
00:25:34,450 --> 00:25:39,130
Speaker 1: in eighteen thirty eight is I'll see you Tuesday. Prepare

440
00:25:39,170 --> 00:25:42,090
Speaker 1: for what lies ahead. So this Tuesday, twenty ninth of

441
00:25:42,130 --> 00:25:45,810
Speaker 1: May eighteen thirty eight, they have been told to gather

442
00:25:46,490 --> 00:25:48,130
Speaker 1: because something important is going to happen.

443
00:25:48,170 --> 00:25:50,970
Speaker 2: What does happen, Well, essentially he leads them on a

444
00:25:51,050 --> 00:25:55,130
Speaker 2: kind of recruitment march, leading them around the edges of

445
00:25:55,170 --> 00:25:59,250
Speaker 2: these various parishes trying to drum up support. There's a

446
00:25:59,330 --> 00:26:02,450
Speaker 2: fairly sizable band of people that follow him trapesing around

447
00:26:02,450 --> 00:26:05,810
Speaker 2: the countryside here and there, but he doesn't cause this

448
00:26:05,850 --> 00:26:08,650
Speaker 2: widespread uprising which he might have hoped for.

449
00:26:09,250 --> 00:26:10,170
Speaker 1: How many people are there?

450
00:26:10,490 --> 00:26:13,370
Speaker 2: When he did his big sermon on the Sunday night

451
00:26:13,570 --> 00:26:15,650
Speaker 2: there was a local constable there who said that there

452
00:26:15,650 --> 00:26:18,130
Speaker 2: were between one hundred and two hundred people there. His

453
00:26:18,410 --> 00:26:22,290
Speaker 2: recruitment march around the countryside varies between about thirty and sixty.

454
00:26:22,450 --> 00:26:24,930
Speaker 1: It's not exactly an army, is it. And are they armed?

455
00:26:24,970 --> 00:26:25,610
Speaker 1: Is he armed?

456
00:26:25,930 --> 00:26:29,170
Speaker 2: Well, he has a pair of pistols and a sword,

457
00:26:29,210 --> 00:26:31,090
Speaker 2: at least one sword. He also seems to have some

458
00:26:31,170 --> 00:26:34,730
Speaker 2: kind of little dagger thing as well. They're only carrying clubs,

459
00:26:35,090 --> 00:26:37,130
Speaker 2: or at least at this point, they're open handed. There

460
00:26:37,130 --> 00:26:39,810
Speaker 2: seems to be a certain amount of uncertainty amongst them

461
00:26:39,850 --> 00:26:41,930
Speaker 2: about what he's going to call on them to do.

462
00:26:42,130 --> 00:26:45,410
Speaker 1: But he says that if anybody takes them on, I

463
00:26:45,450 --> 00:26:49,370
Speaker 1: shall cut them down like grass. So that sounds fairly warlike.

464
00:26:49,650 --> 00:26:51,970
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's pretty bellico some of the things

465
00:26:51,970 --> 00:26:52,690
Speaker 2: he comes out with.

466
00:26:52,890 --> 00:26:56,410
Speaker 1: So these marchers have been wandering around for a couple

467
00:26:56,410 --> 00:26:59,050
Speaker 1: of days. On the second day, they cover thirty miles,

468
00:26:59,730 --> 00:27:03,450
Speaker 1: but their numbers have stopped growing. Some people are ready

469
00:27:03,490 --> 00:27:08,570
Speaker 1: to go home. So do they forsake their Messiah? We

470
00:27:08,610 --> 00:27:21,290
Speaker 1: will find out out after the break. We're back and

471
00:27:21,330 --> 00:27:25,570
Speaker 1: I'm speaking to Ian Brecken, the author of Mad Tom's Rising.

472
00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:30,250
Speaker 1: So Ian Sir William Courtney, let's call him Sir William Courtney,

473
00:27:30,290 --> 00:27:32,730
Speaker 1: we might as well. He is He is struggling to

474
00:27:32,970 --> 00:27:36,330
Speaker 1: entice more people to join his crusade. He is worried

475
00:27:36,370 --> 00:27:40,530
Speaker 1: about others drifting home, So how does he entice people

476
00:27:40,570 --> 00:27:42,890
Speaker 1: to stay with him?

477
00:27:42,970 --> 00:27:47,650
Speaker 2: He essentially ups his messianic appeal. This is an extraordinary

478
00:27:47,650 --> 00:27:49,570
Speaker 2: scene that happens at the end of his second day

479
00:27:49,610 --> 00:27:52,330
Speaker 2: of leading his supporters around the countryside of Ken. And

480
00:27:52,370 --> 00:27:55,090
Speaker 2: they must all be exhausted, absolutely, they'd been on this

481
00:27:55,210 --> 00:27:57,930
Speaker 2: extraordinary long march. And they find themselves in this wood,

482
00:27:58,050 --> 00:28:01,410
Speaker 2: Bosunden Wood, which by that point had become the sort

483
00:28:01,410 --> 00:28:04,730
Speaker 2: of headquarters of Sir William and his band. And there's

484
00:28:04,770 --> 00:28:08,170
Speaker 2: the scene which is described by a woodcutter who happened

485
00:28:08,210 --> 00:28:11,890
Speaker 2: upon it, where Sir William lying on the ground, surrounded

486
00:28:11,890 --> 00:28:13,810
Speaker 2: by all of his followers, and he sits up and

487
00:28:13,850 --> 00:28:20,210
Speaker 2: suddenly starts declaring various extraordinary facts about himself, again reiterating

488
00:28:20,210 --> 00:28:22,330
Speaker 2: that he's come from the sky upon a cloud and

489
00:28:22,370 --> 00:28:24,450
Speaker 2: he can kill all of these people simply by speaking

490
00:28:24,450 --> 00:28:28,090
Speaker 2: a single word, but then declaring he is, in fact

491
00:28:28,490 --> 00:28:32,450
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ himself, that he is the resurrected body of Christ.

492
00:28:32,730 --> 00:28:35,650
Speaker 2: And he shows them the marks on his hands of

493
00:28:35,690 --> 00:28:40,450
Speaker 2: the crucifixion. Wow, he's saying, I am Jesus, I was crucified.

494
00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:43,010
Speaker 2: Here are the old scars, you can see them right here.

495
00:28:43,090 --> 00:28:46,090
Speaker 2: And these people who are surrounding him, at least the

496
00:28:46,170 --> 00:28:50,490
Speaker 2: hardcore of his supporters his disciples, are absolutely ecstatic at this,

497
00:28:50,570 --> 00:28:53,210
Speaker 2: and we have descriptions of them falling on the ground

498
00:28:53,250 --> 00:28:57,050
Speaker 2: and worshiping him, women kissing his feet, kissing his hands,

499
00:28:57,970 --> 00:29:00,210
Speaker 2: praising him to the skies as the Messiah.

500
00:29:00,290 --> 00:29:04,170
Speaker 1: So some of his followers are very impressed by this declaration.

501
00:29:05,210 --> 00:29:07,090
Speaker 1: Are some of them scared of him?

502
00:29:07,370 --> 00:29:10,610
Speaker 2: Yeah? Certainly. I think he was also capable of inspiring

503
00:29:11,250 --> 00:29:14,810
Speaker 2: considerable amounts of dread, partly because of the things he

504
00:29:14,930 --> 00:29:18,730
Speaker 2: claimed would happen if people didn't follow him. He said

505
00:29:18,770 --> 00:29:21,370
Speaker 2: that fire and brimstone would rain down from the sky,

506
00:29:21,490 --> 00:29:24,170
Speaker 2: they would burn people in their beds, that people would

507
00:29:24,170 --> 00:29:26,730
Speaker 2: be dragged down to hell if they refused to follow him,

508
00:29:26,770 --> 00:29:28,850
Speaker 2: and in fact he would chase them down into Hell.

509
00:29:29,450 --> 00:29:33,450
Speaker 1: So he has now this hardcore of incredibly loyal followers

510
00:29:33,450 --> 00:29:38,010
Speaker 1: who are in raptures Jesus himself is leading them. What

511
00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:38,890
Speaker 1: does he do next?

512
00:29:39,170 --> 00:29:42,250
Speaker 2: Well, by this point word of his activities has got

513
00:29:42,250 --> 00:29:46,090
Speaker 2: through to the local authorities. Law enforcement in the countryside

514
00:29:46,130 --> 00:29:47,970
Speaker 2: of England at this time was in a fairly sort

515
00:29:48,010 --> 00:29:51,330
Speaker 2: of ad hoc state. Really. You had these magistrates who

516
00:29:51,370 --> 00:29:55,170
Speaker 2: were local landowners usually or clergymen, and they had various

517
00:29:55,210 --> 00:29:57,650
Speaker 2: parish constables who were working for them. But these are

518
00:29:57,690 --> 00:29:59,130
Speaker 2: all part time roles.

519
00:29:59,250 --> 00:30:01,410
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if he's got fifty or one hundred people

520
00:30:01,450 --> 00:30:04,890
Speaker 1: with cudgels with him, that's not a straightforward thing to

521
00:30:04,970 --> 00:30:07,410
Speaker 1: deal with exactly. Yeah, So what do they do?

522
00:30:07,650 --> 00:30:09,570
Speaker 2: So on the morning of the thirty first of May,

523
00:30:10,010 --> 00:30:13,130
Speaker 2: Parish Constable John Mears is sent off with his brother

524
00:30:13,250 --> 00:30:15,490
Speaker 2: and a friend of his who he's empowered a special

525
00:30:15,530 --> 00:30:18,890
Speaker 2: constables to serve this arrest warrant on Sir William Courtney,

526
00:30:18,890 --> 00:30:20,890
Speaker 2: who at this point is living at Bosenden Farm in

527
00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:22,130
Speaker 2: the center of this woodland.

528
00:30:22,330 --> 00:30:24,970
Speaker 1: Right. So there's just three of them Yeah, the dozens

529
00:30:25,010 --> 00:30:28,890
Speaker 1: and dozens, maybe one hundred followers of Courtney. So what happened?

530
00:30:29,090 --> 00:30:31,930
Speaker 2: As soon as they approached the farmhouse, John Nichols Tom

531
00:30:32,330 --> 00:30:35,250
Speaker 2: William Courtney appeared with a pistol in one hand, sword

532
00:30:35,250 --> 00:30:39,570
Speaker 2: in the other, killed the constable's brother, Nicholas Mears, shot

533
00:30:39,650 --> 00:30:42,250
Speaker 2: him through the body with a pistol, stabbed him several times,

534
00:30:42,490 --> 00:30:44,650
Speaker 2: and then declared that he was the savior of the world.

535
00:30:45,490 --> 00:30:48,930
Speaker 1: Right, So that escalated very quickly, very quickly. So what

536
00:30:48,930 --> 00:30:51,490
Speaker 1: did John Meres do? And is his friend? The other two?

537
00:30:51,730 --> 00:30:53,490
Speaker 2: They took to their heels as quickly as they could,

538
00:30:53,570 --> 00:30:56,890
Speaker 2: so they got away, Yes, being pursued by John Nichols

539
00:30:56,890 --> 00:30:59,170
Speaker 2: Tom with his other pistol, which had gone back into

540
00:30:59,210 --> 00:31:01,890
Speaker 2: the house to get must have been terrifying. The news

541
00:31:01,890 --> 00:31:06,290
Speaker 2: of the murder then reaches the magistrates, so presumably at

542
00:31:06,330 --> 00:31:08,890
Speaker 2: that point they need to escalate. But Sir William is

543
00:31:08,930 --> 00:31:11,290
Speaker 2: now goes on the march again. How do they try

544
00:31:11,290 --> 00:31:13,410
Speaker 2: and track him down and stop him? Well, yeah, he

545
00:31:13,450 --> 00:31:16,330
Speaker 2: goes on the march around this local area with his

546
00:31:17,010 --> 00:31:20,570
Speaker 2: gang of hardcore disciples. They're into about thirty of them

547
00:31:20,610 --> 00:31:23,250
Speaker 2: or so. He first of all heads over to Fairbrook Farm,

548
00:31:23,250 --> 00:31:26,050
Speaker 2: where George Francis lives, his former friend who is now

549
00:31:26,090 --> 00:31:31,250
Speaker 2: turned against and threatens to kill them, although he's met

550
00:31:31,130 --> 00:31:35,170
Speaker 2: at the fence by Francis himself and his various women folk,

551
00:31:35,210 --> 00:31:37,090
Speaker 2: who instead ply them with beer and gin.

552
00:31:37,370 --> 00:31:39,570
Speaker 1: That's smart. If you've got thirty people with cudgels and

553
00:31:39,610 --> 00:31:42,130
Speaker 1: someone's got a gun, you yeah.

554
00:31:41,610 --> 00:31:42,490
Speaker 2: Exactly play nice.

555
00:31:42,650 --> 00:31:42,850
Speaker 1: Yes.

556
00:31:43,090 --> 00:31:46,170
Speaker 2: At this point, luckily, a group of magistrates and special

557
00:31:46,210 --> 00:31:50,370
Speaker 2: constables turn up on horseback, and Tom and his followers

558
00:31:50,370 --> 00:31:54,090
Speaker 2: retreat to a small willow plantation where they plan on

559
00:31:54,170 --> 00:31:54,570
Speaker 2: making a.

560
00:31:54,530 --> 00:31:57,170
Speaker 1: Stand right, a stand against whom.

561
00:31:57,610 --> 00:32:00,370
Speaker 2: Well, this was a stand against the group of magistrates

562
00:32:00,370 --> 00:32:03,170
Speaker 2: who are led by a young man called Norton Natchbull,

563
00:32:03,250 --> 00:32:05,850
Speaker 2: who was the son of the local mp s Redwood Natchbull.

564
00:32:06,170 --> 00:32:10,010
Speaker 2: He had about a dozen local gen tree and yeoman

565
00:32:10,090 --> 00:32:13,450
Speaker 2: farmers and so forth on horseback, a few special constables

566
00:32:13,490 --> 00:32:17,010
Speaker 2: that he'd enrolled in Faversham, but they were pretty much outnumbered.

567
00:32:17,090 --> 00:32:20,410
Speaker 2: In order to summon soldiers in support of the civil power,

568
00:32:20,450 --> 00:32:22,090
Speaker 2: as they put it, you would need to have a

569
00:32:22,090 --> 00:32:25,930
Speaker 2: magistrate testifying that a crime had been committed, and to

570
00:32:25,970 --> 00:32:29,370
Speaker 2: do that he needed a witness. So what you have

571
00:32:29,410 --> 00:32:31,370
Speaker 2: at this moment to these people rushing back and forward

572
00:32:31,410 --> 00:32:34,290
Speaker 2: across the countryside trying to find witnesses, trying to bring

573
00:32:34,330 --> 00:32:37,130
Speaker 2: the witnesses to the magistrates, get the magistrates to write

574
00:32:37,130 --> 00:32:40,210
Speaker 2: an order for troops. I mean the nearest military garrison

575
00:32:40,330 --> 00:32:43,570
Speaker 2: was in Canterbury, which was an hour or so's ride,

576
00:32:43,730 --> 00:32:45,730
Speaker 2: but in order to get them they actually needed to

577
00:32:45,810 --> 00:32:48,530
Speaker 2: ride back and forth several times trying to get the

578
00:32:48,610 --> 00:32:49,770
Speaker 2: right kind of authorization.

579
00:32:50,170 --> 00:32:55,570
Speaker 1: But they do in the end succeed. Major Armstrong shows

580
00:32:55,610 --> 00:32:58,770
Speaker 1: up with about one hundred men from the forty fifth

581
00:32:58,930 --> 00:33:03,290
Speaker 1: Foot Nottinghamshire Regiment. So what happens Then.

582
00:33:03,770 --> 00:33:06,650
Speaker 2: They fot up in the road near these woods, Bosenden Woods,

583
00:33:06,690 --> 00:33:09,370
Speaker 2: where by this point John Tom and his and have

584
00:33:09,450 --> 00:33:12,530
Speaker 2: kind of gone to ground, and the military detachment under

585
00:33:12,530 --> 00:33:16,130
Speaker 2: Major Armstrong divide into two parts and essentially do a

586
00:33:16,210 --> 00:33:19,050
Speaker 2: kind of pincer movement to try and trap these people

587
00:33:19,090 --> 00:33:19,690
Speaker 2: in the clearing.

588
00:33:19,930 --> 00:33:22,050
Speaker 1: I can't imagine he's going to go that well for

589
00:33:22,290 --> 00:33:24,530
Speaker 1: Sir William and his followers.

590
00:33:24,290 --> 00:33:26,450
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is a military detachment of around

591
00:33:26,490 --> 00:33:30,290
Speaker 2: one hundred men fully armed with muskets and bayonets against

592
00:33:30,970 --> 00:33:34,010
Speaker 2: between thirteen and forty men armed with cudgels, and only

593
00:33:34,130 --> 00:33:35,210
Speaker 2: John Tom has a pistol.

594
00:33:35,650 --> 00:33:39,490
Speaker 1: These forces meet, and are we talking about a peaceful

595
00:33:39,490 --> 00:33:41,050
Speaker 1: surrender or something else?

596
00:33:41,250 --> 00:33:44,890
Speaker 2: No, certainly not. As soon as John Tom cites the

597
00:33:44,930 --> 00:33:48,810
Speaker 2: approaching soldiers, he stands up calls upon his men to

598
00:33:48,850 --> 00:33:51,210
Speaker 2: follow him. He has a flag by this point with

599
00:33:51,290 --> 00:33:54,250
Speaker 2: a rampant lion on it, and they charge at one

600
00:33:54,290 --> 00:33:57,130
Speaker 2: of these military detachments, which is led by a young

601
00:33:57,130 --> 00:34:02,490
Speaker 2: officer called Henry Bennett. Bennett apparently shouts that Tom should surrender,

602
00:34:03,370 --> 00:34:05,690
Speaker 2: but the two of them rush at each other, and

603
00:34:05,730 --> 00:34:09,330
Speaker 2: Tom shoots him dead with a pistol. Wow yeah, And

604
00:34:09,410 --> 00:34:14,570
Speaker 2: at this the sound of this shot suddenly pandemonium breaks out.

605
00:34:14,810 --> 00:34:17,610
Speaker 2: The other military detachment, who by this point have been

606
00:34:17,650 --> 00:34:19,450
Speaker 2: lined up into a kind of firing line on the

607
00:34:19,450 --> 00:34:23,690
Speaker 2: other side of the clearing, panic and let loose a

608
00:34:23,770 --> 00:34:27,690
Speaker 2: volley of musketry into the clearing, shooting down quite a

609
00:34:27,690 --> 00:34:30,010
Speaker 2: few of Tom's followers dead on the spot.

610
00:34:30,290 --> 00:34:33,570
Speaker 1: Did Tom, Sir William, was he hit in that early

611
00:34:33,650 --> 00:34:34,690
Speaker 1: volley or did he survive?

612
00:34:34,890 --> 00:34:37,610
Speaker 2: We don't know exactly when he died because the following

613
00:34:37,650 --> 00:34:40,650
Speaker 2: confrontation lasted for about three minutes of very fierce and

614
00:34:40,770 --> 00:34:45,090
Speaker 2: very confused fighting. Tom was probably shot dead in the

615
00:34:45,090 --> 00:34:47,770
Speaker 2: first volley. He was hit sort of just below the

616
00:34:47,770 --> 00:34:50,970
Speaker 2: collar bone by a single musket ball went right through

617
00:34:50,970 --> 00:34:54,570
Speaker 2: his body. He fell to the ground and allegedly died

618
00:34:54,610 --> 00:34:56,890
Speaker 2: with his head against a white thorn tree, saying, I

619
00:34:57,010 --> 00:34:58,330
Speaker 2: have Jesus in my heart.

620
00:34:58,770 --> 00:35:02,810
Speaker 1: But he told his followers that he was bulletproof.

621
00:35:02,370 --> 00:35:05,090
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that all of his followers were also bulletproof,

622
00:35:05,090 --> 00:35:06,610
Speaker 2: which must have been a great shock to them when

623
00:35:06,610 --> 00:35:09,690
Speaker 2: they suddenly realized that they weren't. Of them were shot

624
00:35:09,730 --> 00:35:13,290
Speaker 2: dead or killed with bayonets in this very frenzied three

625
00:35:13,330 --> 00:35:16,090
Speaker 2: minute battle which followed. And at the end of that

626
00:35:16,210 --> 00:35:18,690
Speaker 2: we have various people lying on the ground, various dead bodies,

627
00:35:18,690 --> 00:35:21,290
Speaker 2: injured people, one of the military officers dead, one of

628
00:35:21,290 --> 00:35:26,090
Speaker 2: the constables dead, another military officer beaten unconscious, blood all

629
00:35:26,130 --> 00:35:29,770
Speaker 2: over the place. This clearing was an absolute scene of slaughter.

630
00:35:30,410 --> 00:35:33,170
Speaker 1: After all this, he still has his loyal followers, and

631
00:35:33,210 --> 00:35:37,370
Speaker 1: they still believe that he is Jesus, and Jesus came

632
00:35:37,410 --> 00:35:40,610
Speaker 1: back from the dead, Yeah, and he gave instructions as

633
00:35:40,650 --> 00:35:41,930
Speaker 1: to how to resurrect him.

634
00:35:42,090 --> 00:35:42,330
Speaker 2: Yeah.

635
00:35:42,330 --> 00:35:42,490
Speaker 1: Well.

636
00:35:42,690 --> 00:35:45,650
Speaker 2: Amongst his followers there was an extraordinary woman called Sarah Culver,

637
00:35:46,130 --> 00:35:49,970
Speaker 2: and he told her, apparently that if he was dead

638
00:35:50,210 --> 00:35:53,450
Speaker 2: or appeared to have been killed, she was to wet

639
00:35:53,530 --> 00:35:57,250
Speaker 2: his mouth with water, and that either at that point

640
00:35:57,450 --> 00:36:00,010
Speaker 2: or three days later, he would rise from the dead.

641
00:36:00,330 --> 00:36:02,850
Speaker 2: And she was actually captured at the scene of the battle,

642
00:36:03,130 --> 00:36:05,170
Speaker 2: running towards him with a bucket of water which he

643
00:36:05,290 --> 00:36:08,530
Speaker 2: brought from the well in order to follow his instructions

644
00:36:08,730 --> 00:36:09,730
Speaker 2: and wet his lips.

645
00:36:10,130 --> 00:36:12,210
Speaker 1: Well. One thing we do know is that he did

646
00:36:12,250 --> 00:36:14,810
Speaker 1: not come back to life three days later, but his

647
00:36:14,890 --> 00:36:16,210
Speaker 1: body was put on display.

648
00:36:16,890 --> 00:36:19,210
Speaker 2: It was yeah, I think partly because of this claim

649
00:36:19,250 --> 00:36:20,730
Speaker 2: that he was going to rise from the dead. The

650
00:36:21,090 --> 00:36:25,330
Speaker 2: authorities decided that the bodies of John Nichols, Tom and

651
00:36:25,650 --> 00:36:28,450
Speaker 2: several of his dead followers would be displayed in a

652
00:36:28,490 --> 00:36:30,730
Speaker 2: stable beside a pub called the Red Lion, and they

653
00:36:30,730 --> 00:36:35,810
Speaker 2: became objects of extraordinary grisly curiosity for thousands of people,

654
00:36:36,130 --> 00:36:38,570
Speaker 2: because by this point the news of these events had

655
00:36:38,610 --> 00:36:41,050
Speaker 2: spread across the country. Everybody had heard about it. Queen

656
00:36:41,130 --> 00:36:44,090
Speaker 2: Victoria had heard about it. Thousands of people came down

657
00:36:44,130 --> 00:36:47,570
Speaker 2: from London on stagecoaches, they came on steamers down the

658
00:36:47,610 --> 00:36:50,850
Speaker 2: Thames just to throng into this stable to look at

659
00:36:50,890 --> 00:36:55,170
Speaker 2: these dead bodies, which were slowly moldering in the rather damp,

660
00:36:55,370 --> 00:36:56,010
Speaker 2: hot weather.

661
00:36:56,530 --> 00:36:58,730
Speaker 1: What happened to his surviving followers.

662
00:36:59,450 --> 00:37:01,730
Speaker 2: A few of them escaped, but most of them were arrested.

663
00:37:01,850 --> 00:37:05,330
Speaker 2: They were held captive, they were put on trial. Due

664
00:37:05,330 --> 00:37:08,250
Speaker 2: to a strange legal technicality of the time, even if

665
00:37:08,250 --> 00:37:11,210
Speaker 2: you were a bise stander when an officer of the

666
00:37:11,290 --> 00:37:14,050
Speaker 2: law was killed, you could still be charged with murder.

667
00:37:14,130 --> 00:37:16,850
Speaker 2: A large group of his followers were tried for murder.

668
00:37:17,570 --> 00:37:19,850
Speaker 2: Around ten of them were actually found guilty in the end,

669
00:37:19,970 --> 00:37:23,490
Speaker 2: although most of those were given sentences of a year

670
00:37:23,610 --> 00:37:26,130
Speaker 2: or so in prison with hard labor. Three of them

671
00:37:26,210 --> 00:37:30,890
Speaker 2: were sentenced to transportation to Australia. They included John Tom's

672
00:37:31,250 --> 00:37:34,330
Speaker 2: most committed disciples, and they never returned.

673
00:37:34,610 --> 00:37:37,170
Speaker 1: But thirty two people were initially arrested.

674
00:37:37,210 --> 00:37:39,610
Speaker 2: What happened to the rest Most of them were actually

675
00:37:39,690 --> 00:37:43,490
Speaker 2: led off. By the time the trials actually happened, the

676
00:37:43,530 --> 00:37:46,530
Speaker 2: mood in the country had changed considerably. As more and

677
00:37:46,570 --> 00:37:49,330
Speaker 2: more people found out about what had happened and read

678
00:37:49,770 --> 00:37:52,770
Speaker 2: all of these very detailed accounts of the events that

679
00:37:52,930 --> 00:37:56,010
Speaker 2: led up to this great tragedy, there was a feeling

680
00:37:56,050 --> 00:37:59,050
Speaker 2: in the country that the people that had been arrested

681
00:37:59,130 --> 00:38:03,730
Speaker 2: were more victims than perpetrators. They had been deluded, as

682
00:38:03,770 --> 00:38:07,130
Speaker 2: people put it at the time, by this charismatic madman

683
00:38:07,170 --> 00:38:10,410
Speaker 2: who had gone around promising extra ordinary things. They were

684
00:38:10,410 --> 00:38:13,090
Speaker 2: not necessarily held to be guilty of the crimes of

685
00:38:13,130 --> 00:38:16,010
Speaker 2: which they had been accused. No matter how mad he

686
00:38:16,090 --> 00:38:19,850
Speaker 2: may have seemed himself, the people who followed him were

687
00:38:19,890 --> 00:38:23,090
Speaker 2: not mad. They were following him because they had real grievances,

688
00:38:23,250 --> 00:38:26,650
Speaker 2: because he was speaking to them about their real lives

689
00:38:26,690 --> 00:38:29,170
Speaker 2: and about the hardships that they were suffering. They were

690
00:38:29,250 --> 00:38:32,610
Speaker 2: following him because he was offering them something that no

691
00:38:32,650 --> 00:38:35,250
Speaker 2: one else was offering them. He was offering them some

692
00:38:35,410 --> 00:38:38,610
Speaker 2: sense of hope and change which they didn't see around

693
00:38:38,610 --> 00:38:39,210
Speaker 2: them otherwise.

694
00:38:39,690 --> 00:38:44,290
Speaker 1: So your book is called Mad Tom's Rising. Was John

695
00:38:44,370 --> 00:38:47,410
Speaker 1: Nichols Tom mad when he declared himself to be Sir

696
00:38:47,410 --> 00:38:49,850
Speaker 1: William Courtney and then declared himself to be Jesus? Or

697
00:38:49,890 --> 00:38:52,290
Speaker 1: was he motivated by something else what was going on

698
00:38:52,370 --> 00:38:53,130
Speaker 1: inside his head?

699
00:38:54,050 --> 00:38:56,570
Speaker 2: The name Mad Tom was given to him after his

700
00:38:56,650 --> 00:39:00,730
Speaker 2: death in various news reports. I think it's incontestable that

701
00:39:00,850 --> 00:39:05,010
Speaker 2: he was mentally ill. He was mad, as people would

702
00:39:05,050 --> 00:39:07,570
Speaker 2: have put it at the time. It's impossible to diagnose

703
00:39:07,610 --> 00:39:10,010
Speaker 2: what that madness might have been because we don't have

704
00:39:10,090 --> 00:39:12,770
Speaker 2: him available for study. All we have is the accounts

705
00:39:12,810 --> 00:39:14,770
Speaker 2: of the period, which are kind of shot through with

706
00:39:15,090 --> 00:39:17,850
Speaker 2: the prejudices of the day. The way that I tend

707
00:39:17,850 --> 00:39:20,330
Speaker 2: to think of it is that he became possessed by

708
00:39:20,370 --> 00:39:22,570
Speaker 2: a fictional character that he had invented.

709
00:39:22,810 --> 00:39:25,770
Speaker 1: He achieved extraordinary things. I mean, it all ended in tears,

710
00:39:25,810 --> 00:39:30,250
Speaker 1: of course, but he totally reinvented himself. He convinced a

711
00:39:30,250 --> 00:39:32,290
Speaker 1: lot of people, he stood for parliament, made a good

712
00:39:32,290 --> 00:39:36,450
Speaker 1: account of himself, was a compelling preacher, led this popular uprising.

713
00:39:36,770 --> 00:39:40,370
Speaker 1: It's an extraordinary transformation for a wine merchant who is

714
00:39:40,410 --> 00:39:43,370
Speaker 1: struck down by some episode of ill health.

715
00:39:43,970 --> 00:39:47,690
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the transformation is it almost defies belief.

716
00:39:48,010 --> 00:39:51,530
Speaker 2: How did this man transform himself in this way? How

717
00:39:51,570 --> 00:39:56,290
Speaker 2: did he become this fictional character and then, having been

718
00:39:56,490 --> 00:40:00,170
Speaker 2: accused of various crimes, put on trial, sent to prison.

719
00:40:00,810 --> 00:40:03,530
Speaker 2: Why did he continue to play this role when he

720
00:40:03,570 --> 00:40:05,610
Speaker 2: could at any point have just step back from it.

721
00:40:05,650 --> 00:40:07,730
Speaker 2: He could have disappeared again, he could have changed his

722
00:40:07,770 --> 00:40:10,930
Speaker 2: identity again, but he refused to do so, and I

723
00:40:10,970 --> 00:40:14,490
Speaker 2: think it's because this character Sir William Courtney, that he'd

724
00:40:14,490 --> 00:40:18,210
Speaker 2: invented and that he'd become, was so much more powerful

725
00:40:18,530 --> 00:40:21,490
Speaker 2: than he was himself, was so much more powerful than

726
00:40:21,490 --> 00:40:24,770
Speaker 2: the real John Nichols Tom Wine Merchant of Druro, that

727
00:40:24,850 --> 00:40:26,570
Speaker 2: there was no way he was going to go back

728
00:40:26,610 --> 00:40:31,930
Speaker 2: to his real self. He'd become so almost intoxicated by

729
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:35,690
Speaker 2: being this person that he refused to give it up.

730
00:40:35,810 --> 00:40:38,250
Speaker 1: And on cause retales, we are always trying to learn

731
00:40:38,690 --> 00:40:43,290
Speaker 1: lessons from history. You end your book with the line,

732
00:40:43,490 --> 00:40:46,890
Speaker 1: mad Tom's ghost is rising again. What do you mean?

733
00:40:48,010 --> 00:40:53,690
Speaker 2: This character John Nichols Tom is not greatly known in history.

734
00:40:53,850 --> 00:40:57,090
Speaker 2: He was very quickly forgotten, turned into a character of

735
00:40:57,210 --> 00:41:01,370
Speaker 2: folklore or mythology. Almost he didn't fit with his times

736
00:41:01,410 --> 00:41:04,930
Speaker 2: in any way that's useful to the usual narrative of history.

737
00:41:05,370 --> 00:41:08,250
Speaker 2: But looking back on it today, because of that, he

738
00:41:08,330 --> 00:41:13,370
Speaker 2: seems all beyond history. He seems to have exceeded his

739
00:41:13,370 --> 00:41:18,130
Speaker 2: historical context. And there's something about that role that he played,

740
00:41:18,610 --> 00:41:22,970
Speaker 2: the mutation of his identity, his weird charisma, that he

741
00:41:23,050 --> 00:41:25,450
Speaker 2: was able to exert this magnetic effect that he had

742
00:41:25,490 --> 00:41:29,330
Speaker 2: on those around him that seems oddly contemporary. It seems

743
00:41:29,810 --> 00:41:35,650
Speaker 2: to echo so many other charismatic populists of our own time,

744
00:41:36,490 --> 00:41:41,170
Speaker 2: with their appeals to alternative sources of news, their appeals

745
00:41:41,210 --> 00:41:47,570
Speaker 2: to conspiracy theories, on magical thinking, and claims that reality

746
00:41:47,690 --> 00:41:50,490
Speaker 2: is what they say it is rather than what people

747
00:41:50,610 --> 00:41:51,770
Speaker 2: might perceive it as being.

748
00:41:52,370 --> 00:41:54,890
Speaker 1: Ian, thank you so much for talking to us.

749
00:41:55,370 --> 00:41:55,730
Speaker 2: Thank you.

750
00:41:56,250 --> 00:42:01,250
Speaker 1: Ian's book is Mad Tom's Rising, The Revolutionary Mystic Sir

751
00:42:01,290 --> 00:42:05,050
Speaker 1: William Courtney and the Last Battle Fought on English Soil.

752
00:42:05,290 --> 00:42:08,490
Speaker 1: It is of course available wherever you get your books.

753
00:42:13,570 --> 00:42:18,010
Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is written by me Tim Harford. It's produced

754
00:42:18,010 --> 00:42:21,770
Speaker 1: by Georgia Mills and Marilyn Rust. The sound design and

755
00:42:21,810 --> 00:42:25,850
Speaker 1: original music are the work of Pascal Wise. The show

756
00:42:26,090 --> 00:42:29,450
Speaker 1: also wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg,

757
00:42:29,650 --> 00:42:35,810
Speaker 1: Greta Cohne, Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody, Christina Sullivan, Kira Posey,

758
00:42:36,330 --> 00:42:41,290
Speaker 1: and Owen Miller. Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries.

759
00:42:41,690 --> 00:42:45,210
Speaker 1: If you like the show, please remember to share, rate,

760
00:42:45,410 --> 00:42:48,050
Speaker 1: and review. It really does make a difference to us,

761
00:42:48,690 --> 00:42:51,970
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762
00:42:52,050 --> 00:42:56,930
Speaker 1: receive a bonus audio episode, video episode, and members only

763
00:42:56,970 --> 00:43:01,370
Speaker 1: newsletter every month. Why not join the Cautionary Club. To

764
00:43:01,450 --> 00:43:05,730
Speaker 1: sign up, head to patreon dot com slash Cautionary Club.

765
00:43:05,850 --> 00:43:09,810
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766
00:43:09,810 --> 00:43:12,570
Speaker 1: com Slash Cautionary Club