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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Saber Prediction of Ihart are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm any Rea and I'm Lorn.

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Speaker 2: Vocal Bomb, and today we have a classic for you

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Speaker 2: about Satan.

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Speaker 3: Many puns. Oh, yes, fondly recall.

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Speaker 1: Was there any particular reason this classic was on your mind, Lauren?

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Speaker 2: You know, I was going through our backlog and we

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Speaker 2: just recorded a whole episode about barbecue, like Memphis style barbecue,

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Speaker 2: and I felt like I needed to apologize in a

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Speaker 2: small way to all of our vegetarian listeners.

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Speaker 1: That's yeah, and you can get barbecued Satan. Oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: usually the one that I see, but you can yeah,

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Speaker 1: get it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: This episode of Rich only came out in November of

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Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, and we don't really have any updates for you.

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Speaker 2: I usually just do a quick scour of the internet

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Speaker 2: to see if anything is super new. Nothing is super

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Speaker 2: new with Sitan. I did read a lot of articles

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Speaker 2: about whether jackfruit or Sitan is better for a barbecue,

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Speaker 2: and it was personal. Everyone kind of had their own response,

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Speaker 2: So here we are.

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Speaker 3: It was deeply personal.

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Speaker 1: Well, as we talked about in that Memphis Style barbecue episode,

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Speaker 1: people have very strong opinions. They do very personal opinions.

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Speaker 1: Oh about those kinds of things always, always, and we

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Speaker 1: would love to hear those opinions from you listeners.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, about vegetarian proteins the same way

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Speaker 2: as anything else. But yeah, I suppose, without further ado,

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Speaker 2: we should let former Annie and Lauren take it away.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to Savor.

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Speaker 2: I'm Annie Rises and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum. And today we're

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Speaker 2: talking about satan.

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Speaker 3: Yes, satan, not satan, not satan. No, different thing, very different.

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Speaker 2: Probably not vegetarian that second one.

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Speaker 3: I don't think so, but you never know, you never know.

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Speaker 1: No, we're talking about satan, which is flavored wheat gluten,

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Speaker 1: sometimes called a gluten, wheat gluten, wheat protein, or wheat meat.

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Speaker 1: It's in your tofriky slices, yes, yes, but.

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Speaker 3: Really though, what is it? Okay?

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Speaker 2: Satan is a protein product created using wheat gluten. Gluten

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Speaker 2: is the primary protein in wheat. It's a stretchy and

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Speaker 2: sort of linky, and the texture of satan is well,

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Speaker 2: it's a lot like meat, maybe more so than other

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Speaker 2: meat alternatives. It has a sort of fibrous chew that

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Speaker 2: reminds me a lot of chicken or at least like

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Speaker 2: a chicken nugget actual chicken. And you make satan by

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Speaker 2: first coaxing the gluten out of wheat flour and then

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Speaker 2: by encouraging that gluten to lock up just right to

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Speaker 2: give you that nice, chewy texture. To get the gluten out,

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Speaker 2: you make a sort of dough of flour and water

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Speaker 2: and then soak and knead it with a more water,

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Speaker 2: like a lot more water. Gluten is not water soluble,

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Speaker 2: so it will stay put in your sort of dough,

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Speaker 2: but the starches that make up the rest of wheat

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Speaker 2: flour are totally water soluble, so they will eventually wash out.

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Speaker 2: You're then left with gluten, and okay. Gluten is made

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Speaker 2: up of two types of protein molecules, glutenins and gleiodins,

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Speaker 2: plus a smattering of a few other compounds like cysteine,

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Speaker 2: which is an amino acid, and all right under normal circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Gluten is a sort of gel like suspension of this

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Speaker 2: stuff and maybe some molecules of water. But when you

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Speaker 2: mess with it, both physically mixing or kneading the gluten

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Speaker 2: and also chemically changing its pH by adding stuff like

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Speaker 2: vinegar or baking soda, those cysteines will make the gluten

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Speaker 2: in molecules link up. The gleiodins are smaller and will

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Speaker 2: get trapped in these like cross linked matrices of gluten

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Speaker 2: molecules like a Okay, imagine, imagine you have a few

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Speaker 2: strands of giant Christmas lights.

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Speaker 3: Oh I do like.

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Speaker 2: Like like the bulbs are like the size of like

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Speaker 2: normal lamp bulbs. Okay, And these strands are just super

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Speaker 2: tangled up.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, as they do.

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Speaker 2: And for some reason you and all your wisdom decided

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Speaker 2: to store a bunch of bitty little like pinky sized

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Speaker 2: globe ornaments in the same box as these strands of

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Speaker 2: Christmas lights. And so when you take this mass of

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Speaker 2: tangled lights out of the box, all of these little

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Speaker 2: ornaments come with it, trapped in the little like pockets

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Speaker 2: made up by the chords.

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Speaker 3: Did my mom put you up to this?

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of work taking down the decorations at

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Speaker 1: the end of the year, Mom, No.

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Speaker 2: No, shame, no shame. Okay, okay, does this imagine that

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Speaker 2: you can eat it?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Does that make it better? Then I don't have

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Speaker 3: to untangle them? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, Well that's satan cool.

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Speaker 3: Guilt free. You can also make it at home.

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Speaker 2: It is notoriously difficult to get the texture right, but yes,

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Speaker 2: you can totally work your own gluten out of flour

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Speaker 2: or buy wheat gluten often called vital wheat gluten in

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Speaker 2: stores and use it to make your own satan. You

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Speaker 2: can also use vital weet gluten to up your homemade

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Speaker 2: bread game.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, I'm always looking to up my homemade bread game.

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Speaker 1: If we're talking about flavor, I actually don't have too

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Speaker 1: much experience with satan. Satan yes, the form of horror movies,

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Speaker 1: but satan, no, not really. I do remember it having

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Speaker 1: a hearty, meaty exture and that it absorbed flavor really well.

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Speaker 1: It can mimic some of the flavors and properties of

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Speaker 1: meat so well that it makes some vegetarians or vegans

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Speaker 1: suspicious that there might actually be meat in whatever vegetarian

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Speaker 1: vegan dish they've ordered that has satan in it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: By itself, wheat gluten is pretty bland, but satan is

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Speaker 2: usually made with flavor additives to make it taste meaty.

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Speaker 2: Common recipes recommend savory things like nutritional yeast tomorrow and

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Speaker 2: worster share sauce.

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Speaker 1: And we're talking about nutrition Satan has a good amount

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Speaker 1: of protein. One ounce comes in around twenty one grams

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Speaker 1: of protein. It's low fat, low carb, but obviously not

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Speaker 1: gluten free if celiacs or gluten intolerance is something that

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Speaker 1: you deal with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this package of really high protein with really

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Speaker 2: low fat and low carb is something that some people

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Speaker 2: find very desirable.

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Speaker 3: And numbers wise.

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Speaker 1: In twenty twelve, some research put the meat alternatives industry

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Speaker 1: in the US, of which Satan is a part of,

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Speaker 1: at five hundred and thirty three million dollars.

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Speaker 3: So it's making some money. Yeah, it's making some money.

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Speaker 1: And if we look back at the history, it features

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Speaker 1: a cameo from someone I was not expecting that we

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Speaker 1: haven't talked about in a while on this show. But

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have to wait to find out who it

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Speaker 1: is until after this quick break forward from our sponsor.

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Speaker 3: And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you.

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Speaker 1: For centuries Chinese and Japanese vegetarian Buddhist monks have eaten satan.

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Speaker 2: Or not exactly Satan, but who romanized either Hu or Fu.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, who is not exactly what we think of

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Speaker 2: when we think of satan today, but is also a

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Speaker 2: product made from wheat gluten that has been processed to

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Speaker 2: form chewy proteiny products. It's usually a little less fibrous

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Speaker 2: than satan, more like the texture of seafood than chicken,

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Speaker 2: or sort of spongier, like a sort of springy cake.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there isn't too much when it comes to history

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Speaker 1: recorded history when it comes to satan. But I do

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Speaker 1: know that some people like ignore this whole thing and

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Speaker 1: say that this isn't satan when they're talking about.

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Speaker 3: The history of satan. Yeah, depends, you know, mysteries of history. Yeah, sure, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's been a Southeast Asian diet staple since sixth century CE.

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Speaker 1: In Japan, for instance, where for centuries up until the

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century, eating four legged animals was forbidden.

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Speaker 2: This resulted from the arrival of Buddhism circa sixth century CE,

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Speaker 2: compounding existing Shinto beliefs against killing or eating animals.

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Speaker 1: Because of that, Japan and also India, which had a

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Speaker 1: similar story, the idea of mak meat wasn't really a

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Speaker 1: thing for a good while because there wasn't really a

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Speaker 1: reference point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there were pockets of cultures that ate meat anyway

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Speaker 2: in Japan, but it was not widespread like new emperors

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Speaker 2: had a long standing tradition of as soon as they

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Speaker 2: rose to power, re upping that edict against eating mammals.

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Speaker 3: Right, the same wasn't true in China, not.

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Speaker 2: For the common person at any rate. Buddhist monks on

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Speaker 2: the mainland and in Korea wouldn't eat animals either.

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Speaker 1: Poet Yuwan May included a recipe for a satan textured

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Speaker 1: to be similar to goose in the book Recipes from

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Speaker 1: the Sway Garden. Journey to the West, a book out

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Speaker 1: of the Ming dynasty, comes with several wheat gluten mentions.

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Speaker 1: One involves a demon trying to trick a monk into

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Speaker 1: eating human flesh and brains that resembled wheat gluten.

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Speaker 2: Oh, tricky demon.

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Speaker 3: No, that sounds like it could be a future fantasy food.

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Speaker 2: Oh, Journey to the West is full of It's the

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Speaker 2: legend that we got so many other stories out of,

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Speaker 2: like a dragon ball z and Sayuki and all of

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Speaker 2: these weird problems.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I revisit that for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah oo, or you know, whatever recursor to satan you

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Speaker 2: want to talk about did feature pretty widely in Chinese art.

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Speaker 2: There's a poem from the eleventh century CE book dream

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Speaker 2: Pool essays that said steel is to iron as gluten

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Speaker 2: is to flower. It is only after thoroughly washing the

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Speaker 2: dough that gluten is revealed.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go think about that for a minute,

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Speaker 1: but I suppose we should continue.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In eighteen ninety five, Vegetarian Restaurant Number one opened in

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Speaker 1: New York thanks to the New York City Vegetarian Society.

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Speaker 2: Vegetarian Restaurant Number one. I love how on the nose that.

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Speaker 1: Is, we have a restaurant similar to that in Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: It was similarly named, but the opening night menu included

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Speaker 1: fruit and graham bread. Yes, that gram, but that's not

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Speaker 1: the kmemeo what I'm talking about. Although related, George Osawa

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Speaker 1: came up with the term satan in nineteen sixty one.

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Speaker 1: He was also the founder of the macrobiotic diet, and indeed,

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Speaker 1: satan wasn't that common in cookbooks until the nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 1: That word anyway, And like I said earlier, all that

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Speaker 1: early history we've been talking about. Some folks dispute it,

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Speaker 1: saying that satan got its start with the macrobiotic diet

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties.

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Speaker 2: I think satan is based very heavily on who like

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Speaker 2: to the point where you can really call it, I

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Speaker 2: mean that you can count.

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Speaker 3: The history of Yeah, it was sort of like a progression. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's just just an offshoot.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.

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Speaker 1: When Mormon settlers were making their way to Utah in

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Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, they needed an inexpensive protein source and

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Speaker 1: satan was their answer.

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Speaker 3: Oh and also, you.

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Speaker 1: Know who was a huge part of this movement, One

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Speaker 1: John Harvey Kellogg. Kellogg That Kellogg as part of his

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Speaker 1: whole health sanitarium thing that we've talked about in a

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Speaker 1: few episodes, he was looking for a successful meat alternative

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Speaker 1: the vegetarians in his flock. He and his brother Will Keith,

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Speaker 1: through some weird circumstance, came upon the conclusion that dry

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Speaker 1: wheat flaked super well, and you add milk boila toasted

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Speaker 1: wheat flakes. Now, Kellogg and his brother Will Keith had

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Speaker 1: a huge blowout when it came to the profitability of

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Speaker 1: the cereal, eventually leading to Will spinning out the Kellogg

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Speaker 1: we all know that company and John Harvey Kellogg starting

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Speaker 1: the Battle Creek Food Company. This company's product line was

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Speaker 1: primarily mock meats. The most popular of witch was known

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Speaker 1: as protos. It was a combination of soy peanuts and

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Speaker 1: wheat gluten, sort of the.

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Speaker 3: First commercial approximation of satan.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, some Seventh day aventist fans of Kellogg got the

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Speaker 1: idea for mock meats more closely resembling hot dogs and

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Speaker 1: hamburgers and adding more seasoning for flavor, including one doctor

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Speaker 1: George Harding, a relative of worn Gee Harding. Yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: getting all guy. It's a surprising peace in this episode.

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Speaker 1: From this came the Worthington Foods Company and their two

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Speaker 1: canned imitation meat products in nineteen forty nine. If you're wondering,

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Speaker 1: because we were meatless wieners still available these days, be

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Speaker 1: looking for a throwback and soyloin steaks. Oh that legitimately

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Speaker 1: made me laugh.

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Speaker 3: That was good. It's a good pun.

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Speaker 2: And we talked about these meatless wieners in our hot

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Speaker 2: Dogs episode. These were maybe the first veggie dogs on

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Speaker 2: the market.

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Speaker 1: Eventually, Worthington's got bought out by Miles Laboratories, and from

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Speaker 1: this came a brand you've probably heard of, morning Star Farms.

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Speaker 3: Yep, that one.

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Speaker 1: They were the first that were really able to commercialize

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Speaker 1: the mock meats market in the US.

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Speaker 3: Like the Chick with a K Patty that.

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Speaker 1: Was them, morning Star went through several companies before once

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Speaker 1: again falling under Kellogg's ownership. Satan's success largely depended on

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Speaker 1: the public at large accepting vegetarianism, which for a while

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Speaker 1: was a tough sell in the United States, especially for

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Speaker 1: Middle America. In the nineteen twenties, one of America's first

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Speaker 1: chain restaurants, it was called Child's, attempted to transition to

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Speaker 1: a full vegetarian menu at an affordable price at the

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Speaker 1: behest of owner and vegetarian William Childs. Folks didn't go

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Speaker 1: for it, though, Sales plummeted and Childs was removed from

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Speaker 1: his leadership position. Even progressive New York City was iffy

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Speaker 1: on the idea of vegetarianism during World War II, entered

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Speaker 1: Cranks in nineteen sixty one in all vegetarian restaurant that

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Speaker 1: went on to attract famous fans like Linda McCartney and

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Speaker 1: Princess Diana.

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Speaker 2: And I wanted to put in here at the end

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Speaker 2: that these days, Satan is pretty widely available in supermarkets.

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Speaker 2: But if you're looking to expand from Satan into who territory.

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Speaker 2: The fresh stuff that's mixed with glutenous rice in Japanese

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Speaker 2: called namafu is hard to find in the West, but

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Speaker 2: you can probably find a cooked and dried who called

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Speaker 2: u yaki who or yaqui boo in whatever Asian import

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Speaker 2: market is in your area.

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Speaker 1: I don't have to keep an eye out for that.

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Speaker 1: This episode has inspired me to try try some more.

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Speaker 1: Say ton, Yeah, me too.

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Speaker 2: I'm sort of I'm craving it right now. I've definitely

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Speaker 2: had like clear broth Japanese soup that has these little

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Speaker 2: it almost looks like a like a little spongy cracker

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Speaker 2: And that's definitely this this like YUCKI who like dried

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Speaker 2: mm and yeah, and I'm just like, oh, it's nice.

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Speaker 2: It soaks up, it soaks up the broth. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: a nice little texture difference in the soup.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh man, I got a craving. I've said it

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Speaker 1: before and I'll say it again. The Tempe episode to

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Speaker 1: date is the one that has changed my diet the

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Speaker 1: most because I eat Tempe all the time.

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Speaker 3: Now really I love it. Oh wow, that's so cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Oh, now I want to know I want to like

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Speaker 2: pick your brain for recipes and stuff. How do you

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Speaker 2: like cooking it?

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Speaker 1: I like a good simple stir fry with soy sauce

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Speaker 1: and a little sesame oil.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, says Meia oil makes all the difference.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but now I'm hoping maybe I'll have a similar

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Speaker 1: revelation about Satan. And that brings us to the end

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Speaker 1: of this classic episode. We hope that you enjoyed listening

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Speaker 1: to it, whether it was your first time or who

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Speaker 1: knows how many times, as much as we enjoyed bringing

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Speaker 1: it back. Would definitely love to hear from you listeners

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Speaker 1: any Satan recipes or favorite uses very much.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh always, yes, please, and you can get in

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Speaker 2: touch with us.

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Speaker 1: You can you can email us at hello at sabrepod

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: We are also on social media. You can find us

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Speaker 2: on Blue Sky and Instagram at saber pod and we

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Speaker 2: do hope to hear from you. Savor is production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can visit

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Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 2: your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers

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Speaker 2: Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for list

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Speaker 2: and we hope that lots more good things are coming

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Speaker 2: your way.