Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.
Speaker 1: Showed us an email at trust Me pod at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com.
Speaker 3: Trust Me.
Speaker 1: Trust Me.
Speaker 2: I'm like a swat person.
Speaker 3: I've never lied to you. I've never had a live.
Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers, don't.
Speaker 4: Welcome to trust Me.
Speaker 2: The podcast about cold and extreme belief and manipulation from
Speaker 2: two thirty something year old juvenile delinquents who have.
Speaker 4: Actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc and I am
Speaker 4: Megan Elizabeth.
Speaker 2: Today our guest is Yoni Shereira, friend of the show
Speaker 2: and survivor of the Family Foundation School, which was a
Speaker 2: troubled teen sobriety school that became notorious for how many
Speaker 2: of its former students died after going through the program.
Speaker 2: In part one today, he's going to talk about what
Speaker 2: he was like as a teenager, how he was genuinely
Speaker 2: out of control when it came to drugs and alcohol,
Speaker 2: and why his parents believed the school was the best
Speaker 2: option to help him.
Speaker 1: He'll tell us about the religious undertones of the group,
Speaker 1: how the students were separated into groups they called families,
Speaker 1: the culture of constant fear and snitching, and why he
Speaker 1: thinks so many kids died. Plus next week we'll talk
Speaker 1: about some of the harrowing punishments the kids experienced and
Speaker 1: what it felt like to finally leave. That's right.
Speaker 2: This was such a wild interview for unrelated reasons to
Speaker 2: the content, just because I've known Yoni from this area
Speaker 2: of my life, and you know Yoni from that area
Speaker 2: of your life. And then I found out that he's
Speaker 2: dating this person I know from this other area of Like,
Speaker 2: this just was worlds colliding with this interview. This is
Speaker 2: not relevant to our listeners, but it was cool.
Speaker 1: It was cool, and his story is really insane.
Speaker 4: It is really insane.
Speaker 2: I had no idea that any of this was in
Speaker 2: his history, and it's a very compelling story and I
Speaker 2: think y'all will like it.
Speaker 4: So stay tuned.
Speaker 2: And before we hear it, Megan, can you tell me
Speaker 2: your cultiest thing of the week.
Speaker 1: I can. Last night I watched the new Netflix release
Speaker 1: call who killed John Bennet Ramsey and I have never
Speaker 1: seen well Number one, it's horrible. Don't watch it if
Speaker 1: you ever want to sleep again in your entire life,
Speaker 1: because it's so terrifying in that poor little girl. But
Speaker 1: from a broader perspective, it really is so culty and
Speaker 1: I don't want to give too many things away, but
Speaker 1: you really see this like court of public opinion, pressure leaders.
Speaker 1: At the midpoint, a new character comes in who's kind
Speaker 1: of the anti cult of it all, and it's just
Speaker 1: a fascinating, fascinating watch from the perspective of cults in
Speaker 1: my opinion.
Speaker 2: M Yeah, yeah, I like, as you know, I miss
Speaker 2: a lot of true crime dogs because I just like,
Speaker 2: for whatever reason.
Speaker 4: You know, don't I don't want that much of it
Speaker 4: in my head all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but this one does seem super super interesting. I'm
Speaker 2: just like, I'm endlessly fascinated by the ways that reactions
Speaker 2: to genuine injustices can can escalate themselves and themselves become
Speaker 2: a problem.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That makes me the people who are angry about this
Speaker 1: child dying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, is that what you're kind of talking
Speaker 2: about totally? Yeahh I just find that endlessly fascinating, and
Speaker 2: there's so many. Yeah, I'm curious to watch for sure, And.
Speaker 1: You know there are people that are bad guys, probably,
Speaker 1: but you kind of empathize with them. You can tell
Speaker 1: everybody's trying to do the right thing. Everybody thinks they
Speaker 1: have the hmm. It's just really fascinating. So anyway, I
Speaker 1: can't wait for you to watch it and discuss it.
Speaker 1: But again, like all the trigger warnings in the world,
Speaker 1: because I did not get any sleep last night, nor
Speaker 1: will I ever again, what about you, what's the colziest
Speaker 1: thing that happened to you this week?
Speaker 2: I just was sort of doing a little dive into
Speaker 2: till see Gabbard's connection to her cold twitch. I had
Speaker 2: seen headlines about and there's always I feel like I
Speaker 2: always see sensational headlines about hupl's connections to cold and cults,
Speaker 2: and it's usually like kind of flimsy, but it is
Speaker 2: actually interesting. So for anyone who doesn't know who told
Speaker 2: Sy Gabbart is she's a politician from Hawaii who rose
Speaker 2: to like national prominence when she ran for president actually
Speaker 2: as a Democrat in twenty twenty. She ended up switching sides.
Speaker 2: Now she's a full TRUMPISA, and she has been named
Speaker 2: as the Director of National Intelligence for this new upcoming term. So,
Speaker 2: you know, I dislike a lot of this woman's beliefs,
Speaker 2: but it's interesting because a lot of them have parallels
Speaker 2: to this group that she has grown up with and
Speaker 2: been connected to. So they are called the Science of
Speaker 2: Identity Foundation, and this man founded it in the sixties,
Speaker 2: I believe, or in maybe the seventies. In the seventies,
Speaker 2: he was sort of like an offshoot of the hay Krishnaz.
Speaker 4: This white guy is like, actually, I'm the guru and weird.
Speaker 2: You know, the different people have come forward who were
Speaker 2: in the group or like her aunt has come like people,
Speaker 2: different people have talked about it. She's been open about
Speaker 2: the fact that Chris Butler, this man this is this
Speaker 2: man's name is her like spiritual guide and guru. But
Speaker 2: when you actually like learn about his like who he
Speaker 2: is in this group, it's kind of he is like
Speaker 2: the ultimate leader. He talks to God or like he
Speaker 2: is the ultimate authority on all things. You don't really
Speaker 2: do anything that he doesn't want you to do. He's
Speaker 2: like a helladermophobe, extremely homophobic, extremely anti Islamic. So another
Speaker 2: thing that I thought was interesting was that her entire
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it says people would feed him regularly, tend
Speaker 2: to his laundry. Food couldn't be late, food had to
Speaker 2: be hot. He'd swear at you if you would get
Speaker 2: it wrong. If there was an article of clothing you
Speaker 2: get that he doesn't use, like that's like sacred.
Speaker 4: She has been in it since she was a kid.
Speaker 2: When Tolsy Gabbard ran for president in twenty twenty, her
Speaker 2: aunt said, basically her entire campaign staff were members of
Speaker 2: this group. And there are people that have said, there's
Speaker 2: a quote from someone saying, we're told his perspective and
Speaker 2: what he says is one hundred percent accurate. So if
Speaker 2: that's skewed, then whatever you listen to from him is
Speaker 2: also going to be skewed. And basically the people are saying, like,
Speaker 2: she would not like have this position in politics, if
Speaker 2: he didn't want her to have this position in politics,
Speaker 2: And it's this like it's kind of a goal of
Speaker 2: his to have his people like in governments. So it
Speaker 2: is really incredible how many like religious groups run by
Speaker 2: sketchy ass leaders are like, all right, let's get y'all
Speaker 2: into the government totally and I totally understand how at
Speaker 2: least conspiracy theories, although I do not think it means
Speaker 2: that Tolsi Gabbard is a part of a like shadowy
Speaker 2: cult network. I think that would be silly, but it
Speaker 2: does seem like she had that. They definitely she was.
Speaker 1: On a shadowy cult, but not in a shadowy cult
Speaker 1: network network. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're just like a bunch of random cults
Speaker 2: that happen to have their opinion.
Speaker 1: Also, so many white people men starting cults in Hawaii.
Speaker 1: It's never ceases to amaze me.
Speaker 2: So it is incredible. Also, I just have to add
Speaker 2: his house was covered in tinfoil to keep out terms.
Speaker 2: So that's super normal and sounds really effective too.
Speaker 4: That's super science space.
Speaker 1: That is new.
Speaker 4: So okay, well should we talk to Yoni.
Speaker 1: Let's talk to Yannie.
Speaker 2: Welcome Yoanie Shreira to trust me in person. Thank you
Speaker 2: for being with us today.
Speaker 3: Of course, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: It's so exciting to have you. We both know you
Speaker 2: in real life separately for unrelated reasons, oddly, and now
Speaker 2: we get to talk to you about a piece of
Speaker 2: your life that is maybe a little bit less fun
Speaker 2: than the reasons that we know you, Yeah, start us
Speaker 2: in your teen years? What kind of kid were you?
Speaker 2: What was going on in your life before all this began.
Speaker 3: I usually say I was pretty much into everything besides fighting.
Speaker 3: I was like not a fighting kid. I was a
Speaker 3: pacifist who just loved to get fucked up, But wasn't
Speaker 3: such a pacifist that I wouldn't like steal from you
Speaker 3: even if you were my friend, which that was the
Speaker 3: first kind of like significant trouble I got into. I
Speaker 3: got kicked out of school for stealing. And Yeah, it
Speaker 3: was just like a lot of drinking and getting high
Speaker 3: and stealing and running away, Like I would go missing
Speaker 3: for a number of days, which scared my parents, especially
Speaker 3: going missing in La. Oh you were in La Yeah,
Speaker 3: I grew up here. Yeah, so it was kind of
Speaker 3: like a lot of that stuff.
Speaker 4: Were your parents religious at all?
Speaker 3: What was your not religious? Religious?
Speaker 2: And when it was just kind of like regular discipline
Speaker 2: isn't working, we got to like get only under control.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean I also had two parents that were
Speaker 3: very different in regards to like their parenting style, Like
Speaker 3: my dad was super passive and my mom was like
Speaker 3: like my mom I would describe as probably like the
Speaker 3: most anxious person I know, and that's saying a lot
Speaker 3: because I know a lot of anxious people, but like
Speaker 3: she is like insanely anxious, and I think she kind
Speaker 3: of had somewhat unstable childhood and so she like always
Speaker 3: she like tried to micromanage as much as possible.
Speaker 4: Did you ever get arrested or anything?
Speaker 3: Actually I only got arrested once in sobriety for something
Speaker 3: very uncool. There were these projects by my old place
Speaker 3: in Brooklyn, and we had no air conditioning, no windows,
Speaker 3: we had like nothing, like it was just like a
Speaker 3: brick box that we lived in, and we tried to
Speaker 3: like hop the fence. There was like this public pool
Speaker 3: in the center of these projects, and we got arrested
Speaker 3: at like too.
Speaker 4: Were going to a pool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So.
Speaker 1: The rebellious days, it's always so interesting to me because
Speaker 1: I was not raised in a big city, and I
Speaker 1: know that this happens in small towns and whatever, but
Speaker 1: I wasn't even introduced to alcohol clubs like seventeen, and
Speaker 1: so like when I hear about little kids getting into
Speaker 1: this level of them as chief, I'm like, damn, that's
Speaker 1: so intense, Like my brain would have broken immediately to
Speaker 1: be on drugs.
Speaker 2: When I was in high school, I was a good
Speaker 2: I mean I've still never drank guess you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: but I would hang around people who would, and I.
Speaker 4: Thought it was so cool.
Speaker 3: I've ever drank.
Speaker 4: No, I've never drank.
Speaker 3: Wow, Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 4: I mean it's weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was probably brother Oka, but that wasn't why
Speaker 2: it was started in Mormonism. And then I just I
Speaker 2: left Mormonism and I was like I don't know, yeah,
Speaker 2: why this doesn't feel like a thing that I I'll do.
Speaker 2: And now it's like so built up because I'm like
Speaker 2: I'd like to try wine, but now it's so built
Speaker 2: up that it feels like it's got to be like
Speaker 2: the perfect occasion, which has never happened because I haven't
Speaker 2: gotten into sundance yet.
Speaker 1: So but like even yeah, even like I was like
Speaker 1: sixteen and reading Ya novels where I was like, I
Speaker 1: can't wait till I get my first French kids. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm just saying. I was like, it's impressive
Speaker 1: to me in a bad way and we might have
Speaker 1: to take this part out, but like, wow, a bad boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like kind of cool.
Speaker 4: I would have also thought that, yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 3: Well, I think like I don't know why, but I
Speaker 3: always even like as a first of all, the first
Speaker 3: time I drank, it was like one of those things
Speaker 3: where I didn't It wasn't like I was going around
Speaker 3: being like I can't wait to drink. It was literally
Speaker 3: like it was given to me at a bar mitzvah
Speaker 3: after party one time, damn, and which like that is
Speaker 3: not regular. Most people like don't have bar mitzvah after parties.
Speaker 3: But my best friend Hanky, his brother, Yeah, his brother,
Speaker 3: like we were in private school, like going from seventh
Speaker 3: to eighth grade, and his brother was like like going
Speaker 3: in his senior year at the local public school, and
Speaker 3: he had like a bunch of his friends over one
Speaker 3: night and after his brother, Hanky's bar mitzvah, and his
Speaker 3: brother got to invite like two or three of his friends,
Speaker 3: and so I got to go and they literally just
Speaker 3: like fed us drinks all night, and I got like
Speaker 3: blacked out, and it was like really like one of
Speaker 3: those things where it's like WHOA, Like what a shame?
Speaker 3: I didn't do this sooner? And I'm gonna do this
Speaker 3: like every day for the rest of my life.
Speaker 4: But I felt after blacking out.
Speaker 3: Okay, that night, I just had a lot of fun.
Speaker 3: But then like a few days later, we smoked weed
Speaker 3: for the first time, okay, and that was like the
Speaker 3: first time I was like coherent. So that was the
Speaker 3: first time I was like I'm gonna do.
Speaker 2: This, like right right right, yeah, okay. And your parents
Speaker 2: were just like oh God, and.
Speaker 1: Your mom, I mean, what a nightmare. It's like her
Speaker 1: worst dream.
Speaker 3: Oh totally yeah. And I think like I didn't have
Speaker 3: like the foresight of being like, oh, if I'm like
Speaker 3: a little like more chill about this, I can probably
Speaker 3: get away with more. I just was like, I don't know, rebellious,
Speaker 3: and so I just got into trouble immediately that first night,
Speaker 3: they like shaved off my eyebrow, and I remember my
Speaker 3: mom picked me up and she like started sobbing. Oh, now,
Speaker 3: how are you gonna show up to all these other
Speaker 3: bar mits? Was you have no eyebrow? It was very
Speaker 3: much like the optics of everything.
Speaker 1: That's so, I mean, that's I love where her priorities are.
Speaker 1: How are you going to go to the BARMT says, So.
Speaker 2: How old were you when they were like, all right,
Speaker 2: we need to take some real action.
Speaker 3: The first time I ever got sent to an outpatient,
Speaker 3: I was fourteen, which was like ridiculous, Like, in hindsight,
Speaker 3: that was pretty ridiculous.
Speaker 4: And it also an outpatient like sobriety okay.
Speaker 3: Like and like at that point, I pretty much had
Speaker 3: no friends that like drank or got high like I did,
Speaker 3: so I didn't have It was like a lot of
Speaker 3: doing it by myself. And then going to that outpatient
Speaker 3: was the first time I met people that, you know,
Speaker 3: like to get fucked up like I did, and.
Speaker 1: So it always like it kind of makes it worse.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh totally yeah, Like.
Speaker 1: Oh damn, you have access to even more drugs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's go. That was like where I got my
Speaker 3: drug dealer. Moving forward, like yeah, yeah, Like I remember
Speaker 3: I brought one of my friends from that rehab to
Speaker 3: like my private school Halloween party and like every parent
Speaker 3: was like totally freaked out by him. Wow. It was
Speaker 3: just like, yeah, it just introduced me to people that
Speaker 3: I never would have or not never, but I just
Speaker 3: at that point have interacted with Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so at what point does the Family Foundation school
Speaker 2: seem like the best option to your parents?
Speaker 3: So then I'd gotten kicked out of a school, and
Speaker 3: then I went to a new school and I tried
Speaker 3: to kind of like get my shit together because I
Speaker 3: also at that time got a girlfriend who was like
Speaker 3: kind of like straight laced or whatever, and you know,
Speaker 3: she like I don't know. I was like, Oh, I
Speaker 3: want to like do better, you know, and so I'm going.
Speaker 1: To change for you.
Speaker 3: I was like fifteen, yeah, and ready to have a
Speaker 3: whole new me, and I like tried to join the
Speaker 3: football team and stuff like that. Oh do the whole
Speaker 3: like straight lace person thing. And I think it like
Speaker 3: literally lasted three weeks and then I kind of not
Speaker 3: long after that, dropped out of school. And then my
Speaker 3: parents started looking for places to send me.
Speaker 4: And how old were you at that point?
Speaker 3: It was like right before I turned sixteen?
Speaker 1: Okay, so how did they even find the school because
Speaker 1: you're in Los Angeles and the school is across the country.
Speaker 4: Where was it?
Speaker 3: It was in the cat Skills in Upsey, New York.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, So how did they even come in
Speaker 1: contact with us? Through someone's bar us far or.
Speaker 3: What actually close? Through a rabbi?
Speaker 1: Okay, this rabbit rabbi is like I know a place.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And what's funny is my parents, Like my
Speaker 3: parents are the most like culturally Jewish people in the world,
Speaker 3: but like not religious at all, Like my dad. I
Speaker 3: just had dinner with my dad last night, and for
Speaker 3: like the fifth dinner in a row, he made it
Speaker 3: a point to talk to me about how much he
Speaker 3: doesn't believe in God. But uh, yeah, their dad. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: They wanted to send me to a place in la
Speaker 3: that was like a Jewish recovery program or something, but
Speaker 3: you had to be eighteen to go. And the rabbi
Speaker 3: of that place, I guess, had like knew someone that
Speaker 3: worked at the like was like an administrative person at
Speaker 3: the school or something, and so he was the one
Speaker 3: who recommended it.
Speaker 1: Okay, And what did you know about the school going
Speaker 1: into it?
Speaker 3: I literally knew nothing.
Speaker 1: They're just like, you're going to move to a new school,
Speaker 1: did you? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Did you? Did you or did you have the kidnap experience? Yeah?
Speaker 3: How did you? So? I didn't have the kidnap experience.
Speaker 3: The way that they got me there was so at
Speaker 3: that point my mom and I were my I mean,
Speaker 3: my dad and I weren't close, but my dad and
Speaker 3: I didn't really like fight much. Uh, and my mom
Speaker 3: and I like could not be around each other and
Speaker 3: like not fight, even to the point where at one
Speaker 3: point my dad said like, hey, what if you and
Speaker 3: I like moved somewhere for a while. And they had
Speaker 3: phrased it as like, how would you feel about going
Speaker 3: to a boarding school? And when I was in that
Speaker 3: outpatient program, there was a girl that I knew there
Speaker 3: that had gone to a boarding school in Vermont, and
Speaker 3: she like talked about it like it was the best
Speaker 3: thing in the world. Like she was like, Oh, we
Speaker 3: would just go into the woods and do mushrooms all
Speaker 3: day and like it was the shit. If you could
Speaker 3: ever go to a boarding school, you should go. And
Speaker 3: I was like a year or two before. Yeah, And
Speaker 3: I was like when they mentioned boarding school, I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: it sounds pretty sick. I get to like not be
Speaker 3: around them at all and just like get fucked up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like my parents out in the Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And so I said I'll go if you could
Speaker 3: smoke cigarettes and if there are girls there, like that
Speaker 3: was my only criteria, and they were like, oh, yeah, sure, yeah,
Speaker 3: you definitely can. And so my dad took me. They
Speaker 3: were like, oh, we found a place in New York
Speaker 3: and I just thought like New York City or something.
Speaker 3: And we got there, and I mean at this point
Speaker 3: in my life, I was like truly like fucked up.
Speaker 3: Every moment I was like awake. And so we got
Speaker 3: to New York. I was like fucked up on the plane.
Speaker 3: When we landed, I was like just residually fucked up.
Speaker 3: Like I was just like so hungover that Like I
Speaker 3: remember we got in the rental car and I like
Speaker 3: woke up like three hours later and we were driving
Speaker 3: down the driveway and I was like looked around and
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, this is not New York City.
Speaker 3: But that was how like I got there.
Speaker 1: Paint the picture of what you wake up to, what
Speaker 1: your drive into, what does it look like?
Speaker 3: It was actually like insanely beautiful. It was like in
Speaker 3: this valley in upstate New York, and I got there
Speaker 3: at the end of fall, and it was like incredibly picturesque,
Speaker 3: like uh, like the foliage the valley there was like
Speaker 3: a little like pond or whatever. It was really beautiful.
Speaker 3: But I had no I like truly was like so hungover.
Speaker 3: I just recognized like this is I think the only
Speaker 3: thing I felt in that moment was like this is
Speaker 3: unfamiliar and it's really gray. And we got in and
Speaker 3: there's this guy Bob who looked like a clown, like
Speaker 3: actually like he looked like he had this really like
Speaker 3: bulbous nose that was red and like the reddest face
Speaker 3: and he wouldn't stop smiling for.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was really weird. And he was like all right,
Speaker 3: let's let's do your intake and and then my dad
Speaker 3: started crying and I remember being like really embarrassed that
Speaker 3: he was crying. He was crying and he went to
Speaker 3: give me a hug, and I was just like yeah, okay,
Speaker 3: bye uh and I went into the like locker room area,
Speaker 3: and then I realized like, oh, this.
Speaker 1: Is like not I'm not going to be horseback, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. There was like the strip search thing and
Speaker 3: the life shampoo and then like you know, checking all
Speaker 3: your ship and then they give you someone called something
Speaker 3: called like a buddy, which is like like a more
Speaker 3: senior person there who just like takes you around like
Speaker 3: you're not allowed to be by yourself there for the
Speaker 3: first like two months two months. Yeah, whoa like even
Speaker 3: to the point it's called like shadow to the point
Speaker 3: where like if you go to the bathroom, they go
Speaker 3: in with you.
Speaker 2: Oh no, oh my god. So this is like a prison,
Speaker 2: so they're strip searching you.
Speaker 3: They strip search you. Yeah. And I just remember the
Speaker 3: first moment where it really kind of started to sink
Speaker 3: in was we were walking out of the out of
Speaker 3: the locker room and the guy who is my buddy
Speaker 3: was like kind of going through this list of rules
Speaker 3: and I literally couldn't tell you a word he said.
Speaker 3: And then he said yeah, and it's an eighteen month
Speaker 3: minimum program. And I was like, wait would you say?
Speaker 3: And he's like, oh, yeah, it's like an eighteen month
Speaker 3: minimum program. And it like literally felt like someone like
Speaker 3: kicked me in the stomach. Oh my god. And I
Speaker 3: was like, I think I was shocked then. And then
Speaker 3: for like the rest of the week, I was like,
Speaker 3: all right, don't cry in public. Don't cry in public.
Speaker 1: I mean, as somebody who's had their own really fun
Speaker 1: relationship with drugs and alcohol, are you now detoxing off
Speaker 1: of this, like by yourself no help or are you okay?
Speaker 1: Like what does that look like?
Speaker 3: At that point, I hadn't really been like I wasn't
Speaker 3: I mean, I was drinking every day, but I wasn't
Speaker 3: doing any hard drugs at that point in my life.
Speaker 3: And I think I was just like so like shocked
Speaker 3: by being there that I honestly I couldn't even tell
Speaker 3: you like what I was like physically feeling at all.
Speaker 3: Like I think I was just like so stunned and
Speaker 3: just like depressed.
Speaker 1: But there was no like protocol of were giving you
Speaker 1: some medicine or like helping this happen.
Speaker 4: Like it's not a legitimate at that place now, wow.
Speaker 3: And there were occasionally kids that were there. I mean
Speaker 3: almost everybody there had like substance abuse issues, and like
Speaker 3: you know, we're there for like drinking or doing coke
Speaker 3: or something like that. But occasionally there'd be someone there
Speaker 3: that was maybe detoxing off of something that would be
Speaker 3: like more dangerous.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Usually they would actually just leave, Like they would get
Speaker 3: there and they'd be like, oh, this person's like physical detoxes,
Speaker 3: you know, more dangerous than we can really handle. And
Speaker 3: then they'll get some sense of well.
Speaker 4: That's I guess that's something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And they were kidnapping a lot of these people,
Speaker 1: can you just say, yeah, yeah, a little bit about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they had like an escort program where they would
Speaker 3: come and have like two or three guys, depending on
Speaker 3: how big you were, pick you up like in the middle.
Speaker 1: Of the night, like in just that's insane.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like literally like come in your room at like
Speaker 3: three in the morning and just your parents would already
Speaker 3: pack your bags and so it was just like one
Speaker 3: of those things where it's like we're just ready to go.
Speaker 3: It's crazy.
Speaker 2: How many of these schools did that, like just literally yeah,
Speaker 2: like maybe violently or at least traumatically kidnapping kids in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so scary.
Speaker 3: One of my best friends, they're actually got almost every time,
Speaker 3: you know, you would just like successful or you know,
Speaker 3: quote unquote successfully get escorted there. But I had a
Speaker 3: friend that was coming from Florida who got there like
Speaker 3: two months after I did, and he this is like
Speaker 3: unheard of, this like never would happen, but he got escorted.
Speaker 3: They like took him in the middle of the night
Speaker 3: and they went to the airport in like Miami or
Speaker 3: whatever to get on the plane to fly to New York.
Speaker 3: And in the airport, he like very smartly, was like
Speaker 3: these people aren't my parents, they're kidnapping me, and like
Speaker 3: made this huge scene, and you know, like the airport
Speaker 3: police were like, hey, you like what's going on, and
Speaker 3: they like showed them there's like paperwork that they have
Speaker 3: to prove that, you know, like you're getting escorted or whatever,
Speaker 3: and they were like it doesn't matter, Like we can't
Speaker 3: have this scene happening here. You have to leave. And
Speaker 3: so the escorts didn't know what to do, so they
Speaker 3: just like dropped him back off like at his parents' house.
Speaker 1: Wow wow. So but he eventually got there, they got him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like two or three months later they got him,
Speaker 3: and he just like walked back in the house and
Speaker 3: like cursed his parents it's out, and then just went
Speaker 3: back in his room and kept getting fucked up and
Speaker 3: they didn't know what to do. And then when he
Speaker 3: finally got escorted, like two or three months later, they
Speaker 3: drove him the whole way.
Speaker 4: I was gonna ask, Yeah, that's a that's a situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So once you were kind of in there, like what
Speaker 2: was the first of all physically what was happening on
Speaker 2: the property, and then like what were the structure of
Speaker 2: the days.
Speaker 3: So you get there and because it's an adolescent program,
Speaker 3: you're in school and it's like super structured. You like
Speaker 3: wake up at six am. You have like a minute
Speaker 3: to get out of bed. You have like twenty minutes
Speaker 3: to get ready, and then you go up to chapel
Speaker 3: because it was somewhat you know, religious based or whatever.
Speaker 3: And then after chapel you go down and a breakfast
Speaker 3: and then you're pretty much in school from like eight
Speaker 3: am to like six pm or something. Yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 3: you're either in classes, but it's also like like these
Speaker 3: like work blocks or like peppered in, so like you'll
Speaker 3: you know, go to math class and then for period
Speaker 3: two you have laundry and you'll be you know, doing
Speaker 3: everyone's laundry, and then you'll go to like history and
Speaker 3: it's a really long day. Yeah, it was crazy. And
Speaker 3: then you finish that, you go to dinner and then
Speaker 3: there's like an hour of work study or study hall
Speaker 3: whatever's right, and then you pray again and then you
Speaker 3: go to sleep.
Speaker 4: So this is a Christian program, right, They.
Speaker 3: Like claimed they were non religious, but it was pretty Christian.
Speaker 3: I mean they had like a statue of like state
Speaker 3: Saint Francis in the front, and like you know a
Speaker 3: whole chapel on the campus and whatever.
Speaker 1: So I was reading they like separate this might not
Speaker 1: be real. But they separate you guys into groups of
Speaker 1: smaller called families called families. This is where it starts
Speaker 1: getting even more culsy. Yeah, called families, And what is
Speaker 1: that exactly?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there are eight families and you get put
Speaker 3: in these groups. It's kind of just random. It's like
Speaker 3: what family has less than the others when you get
Speaker 3: there and they're a bunch of staff. And then there
Speaker 3: are two family leaders always like male and female, who
Speaker 3: are like the head of your group. And you know,
Speaker 3: when you're in school, you like mingle with everybody, and
Speaker 3: you know, everybody's kind of like you know, dispersed in
Speaker 3: the classes like together. But for all of the like
Speaker 3: recreational stuff for meals or whatever, you're with your families.
Speaker 3: And every meal they have something called table topics where
Speaker 3: they will like get people up in front of the
Speaker 3: family during the meal and then pretty much like yell
Speaker 3: at them for something they're doing wrong. All of like
Speaker 3: your a lot of your reprimanding and like trouble you
Speaker 3: get into is like in the confines of your family, Like.
Speaker 4: And how big were the families.
Speaker 3: When I was there, it was like forty kids and
Speaker 3: probably like ten or twelve staff members. Wow, for the
Speaker 3: most part, it's about two or three staff members in
Speaker 3: the family at like a given time, okay, because they're
Speaker 3: not all like working the same day.
Speaker 1: Got you? Got you?
Speaker 2: So was there like incentive to find things about your
Speaker 2: fellow family members that they were doing wrong?
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, that was like a huge part of snitching
Speaker 3: was huge.
Speaker 4: What is it with these places?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 3: I think I think that's like maybe the easiest way
Speaker 3: to brainwash. You know. It's like because at a certain
Speaker 3: I think I I think people especially like you know,
Speaker 3: because a lot of the times thatdynamic is like if
Speaker 3: you're newer, you kind of fucking like hate the older
Speaker 3: you know, kids there, because they're the ones like telling
Speaker 3: you what to do. A lot of the time. I
Speaker 3: think I'm like a pretty non confrontational person, so I
Speaker 3: like really hated that aspect of it. So, you know,
Speaker 3: like if I was ever in a position where i'd
Speaker 3: like see like a newer person or like a kid
Speaker 3: who was being defiant like doing some shit, I'd usually
Speaker 3: just kind of be like, hey, come on, like don't
Speaker 3: put me in the position where I have to like
Speaker 3: tell you what to do. Like, let's just like keep
Speaker 3: our head down and just get the fuck out of
Speaker 3: here or whatever. So that was kind of like my technique.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was a lot of like a lot
Speaker 3: of the times, the what they would get you up
Speaker 3: about for these table topics, it would be kind of
Speaker 3: like push to the staff from kids there, like oh
Speaker 3: I saw him doing.
Speaker 4: X, Y or Z, and what kind of stuff would
Speaker 4: it be any.
Speaker 3: Like he's not paying at time, mentioning class, he's flirting.
Speaker 3: You'd even get in trouble for masturbating, Like if they
Speaker 3: found out you masturbated, they'd.
Speaker 1: Oh god, God, So they want an entire population of
Speaker 1: teenage people not to not to mansturbate.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Cool, I've literally never had a wet dream until
Speaker 3: I got there. I'm sure like it was just like
Speaker 3: full on, like sexually shut this shit down. That's wild.
Speaker 3: And then and then you get to a point where
Speaker 3: you're so like brainwashed that if you masturbate, you will
Speaker 3: tell on yourself.
Speaker 1: Okay, we have to figure out how we get from
Speaker 1: where you started there, Like, can you go back to
Speaker 1: when you said snitching is probably one of the easiest
Speaker 1: ways to brainwash people. What do you mean by that? Like,
Speaker 1: because you're starting to give over your authority and not
Speaker 1: have connections with other people.
Speaker 3: Well, I think you, like you don't incentivize snitching. You
Speaker 3: what's the opposite decentivized. I don't know what you You
Speaker 3: pretty much say like, we are going to take shit
Speaker 3: away from you unless we see you like participating in
Speaker 3: our program quote unquote, you.
Speaker 1: Know participation means snitching.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they don't like say it like that,
Speaker 3: but it's like, why are you not holding this person accountable?
Speaker 3: You know, like and then they'll start, you know, and
Speaker 3: it's like small shit there goes a long way because
Speaker 3: there's not like a lot of good shit. So it's
Speaker 3: like you can't have dessert on Saturday, which is like
Speaker 3: the night you get dessert, or like you can't call
Speaker 3: your parents anymore. You get like one ten minute call
Speaker 3: a week with your parents, and there's some there's a
Speaker 3: staff member that just sits right next to you and
Speaker 3: to listen to what you're saying, Oh my god, because
Speaker 3: you know, they don't want you being like, hey, this
Speaker 3: is really fucked up this place. Yeah, so you know,
Speaker 3: or if you have like a family visit or they'll
Speaker 3: take away you know, you being able to get mail
Speaker 3: from your family or whatever.
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, I mean it seems to me that
Speaker 2: it would create a culture of constant fear, which, as
Speaker 2: we know, keeps people controlled, no connecting and exactly and
Speaker 2: isolated from each other. So you can't like band together
Speaker 2: and demand better if you're all constantly headed against Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: Oh totally.
Speaker 2: WHOA, I want to go back a little bit if
Speaker 2: you don't mind. I don't mind because I I know
Speaker 2: everybody else because we kind of glossed over that you
Speaker 2: would be doing work in between classes.
Speaker 4: What would that look like and how intensive.
Speaker 3: It was more like chores but uh where you know,
Speaker 3: like once or twice a week you'd have a laundry
Speaker 3: period and then you'd have like a kitchen period where
Speaker 3: you'd either be like preparing meals or like cleaning up
Speaker 3: after meals or whatever. The only time where it was
Speaker 3: kind of used as a as a punishment is if
Speaker 3: and this was kind of one of their you know,
Speaker 3: like their like last ditch effort sanctions they called it, uh,
Speaker 3: which were pretty much just like punishments they would give out.
Speaker 3: Was something called work sanction, So like if you kind
Speaker 3: of were getting in trouble for a while and like
Speaker 3: weren't changing according to their liking. They would put you
Speaker 3: on this thing called work sanction, and you would stop
Speaker 3: going this school and work instead, And that was like
Speaker 3: much more like, you know, that was much more geared
Speaker 3: to punishment. So like I was on work sanction twice,
Speaker 3: like once in the winter and once in the summer.
Speaker 3: So like in the winter, it would be like, we're
Speaker 3: going to give you tasks to do that like need
Speaker 3: to be done. But like if the tasks are finished,
Speaker 3: it's not like all right, now you get to chill.
Speaker 3: Like it would literally be like all right, now, go
Speaker 3: into that field and just like shovel paths in the
Speaker 3: snow like to nowhere, you know, or like carry these
Speaker 3: buckets of rock up and down the hill or gravel,
Speaker 3: you know, up and down the hill.
Speaker 1: Did you feel like you deserved any of those?
Speaker 3: I definitely felt bad about what I was doing to
Speaker 3: my parents, you know, Like I don't think my mom
Speaker 3: was like the best mom, but I don't think she
Speaker 3: deserved like the shit that I put her through. I
Speaker 3: also think that they were just really bad at having
Speaker 3: a relationship with their kids, you know, so I think
Speaker 3: they obviously could have you know, I think I think
Speaker 3: if I was a parent and my child was having
Speaker 3: a hard time. I would probably try to talk to them.
Speaker 3: I'd probably try to and hope that I had a
Speaker 3: relationship with them before they started to kind of like
Speaker 3: go off the rails. But that wasn't really like my
Speaker 3: experience with my mom, you know, so, But yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean I knew I was, like I didn't feel like
Speaker 3: I can't believe that somebody would send me here. I
Speaker 3: think I recognized like my parents, I'm sure don't know
Speaker 3: how bad it is, and like it was unsustainable like
Speaker 3: what I was doing, and honestly, like I was, I
Speaker 3: really was like living so reckless that I think if
Speaker 3: I didn't get sent there, I probably probably something serious
Speaker 3: would have happened, either in terms of like getting arrested
Speaker 3: or like dying or something.
Speaker 2: M Yeah, we've talked a little bit about rehabs in
Speaker 2: this country and how there's no real standardization, so like
Speaker 2: somebody can be desperately in need of rehab, but they
Speaker 2: get sent somewhere that's like not evidence based, like abusive
Speaker 2: for profit, like it is unfortunately a population that gets
Speaker 2: exploited quite a bit. Yeah, you were in need, but
Speaker 2: like you probably needed like legitimate program.
Speaker 3: And I think I think with the adolescent wants too,
Speaker 3: because I don't think insurance covers adolescent treatment or at
Speaker 3: least like I wasn't aware of any. And so like
Speaker 3: all of these like institutions were like for profit and
Speaker 3: sometimes like the state would have a budget to help
Speaker 3: like kids like in need, and so like some of
Speaker 3: the kids there, like you know, were lower income and
Speaker 3: their parents wouldn't be able to afford something like that,
Speaker 3: but the state would send them there instead of like
Speaker 3: sending them the juvie or something like if they happened
Speaker 3: to have like be in a school, you know, in
Speaker 3: a school district with like a budget to do that
Speaker 3: or something.
Speaker 1: I mean, what's coming up just super quickly is that
Speaker 1: I don't know your background, but it sounds a little
Speaker 1: bit like it was a little i don't know, like privileged.
Speaker 1: Is that fair to say you're not okay? And so
Speaker 1: now you're suddenly in a completely different world? Yeah, what
Speaker 1: does that feel like?
Speaker 3: I mean, I'd never really done chores before that, but
Speaker 3: it didn't feel for sure privileged background. But it didn't
Speaker 3: feel like now I'm in a unprivileged background or like
Speaker 3: that background was so privileged. It honestly just felt like
Speaker 3: I was able to do everything I wanted to do,
Speaker 3: and now people are telling me what to do.
Speaker 2: Right, How did you feel about the other kids in
Speaker 2: your family and beyond.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it kind of does become a family
Speaker 3: of sorts. Like it's like you like, go there, you
Speaker 3: have this experience that really nobody can relate to, and
Speaker 3: when you get out, you really realize how institutionalized you are.
Speaker 3: Like I was so fucking institutioned, like to the point
Speaker 3: where it probably took like three or four years before
Speaker 3: I even realized that that place was fucked up, like seriously,
Speaker 3: Like I left there and I was like fully, like
Speaker 3: I fully defended that place. Yeah, And it wasn't until
Speaker 3: I was in a relationship with my first like longtime
Speaker 3: partner where she was like, hey, that place was really
Speaker 3: fucked up, and I was like really uh and then
Speaker 3: and then there was just like a bunch of shit.
Speaker 3: And then at that point I was sober and it
Speaker 3: was kind of it was clear that there was more
Speaker 3: help that I needed, and so I started going to therapy.
Speaker 3: And that therapist also kind of simultaneously was like that
Speaker 3: like she would like I would tell her thing and
Speaker 3: she's like a very emotional person. She's like kind of
Speaker 3: an alternative type there, you know, she's like a somatic
Speaker 3: therapist or whatever. And so she would like sometimes we
Speaker 3: be talking and she'd like start crying, and I'd be like,
Speaker 3: why are you crying? I also was so emotionally shut down.
Speaker 3: I was like, why the fuck are you crying? It's gross?
Speaker 1: How did they get you to this place where you
Speaker 1: were fully in not even realizing it as a cult,
Speaker 1: defending it? Like how long did that take?
Speaker 3: I think you? I think different people have different experiences.
Speaker 3: I will say there are a bunch of kids that
Speaker 3: went there that didn't fully buy in. And I wouldn't
Speaker 3: say I fully bought in, like I said, like I didn't.
Speaker 3: I really wasn't into like the snitching on people thing
Speaker 3: like that made me uncomfortable, Like I just wanted to
Speaker 3: like mind my own business type thing. But I think
Speaker 3: a lot of the initial like how you get in
Speaker 3: is because the people, like the kids that have been
Speaker 3: there longer than you. You know, eventually you you know,
Speaker 3: you're kind of alienated and like ostracized if you're the
Speaker 3: one who's kind of like being defiant and acting up
Speaker 3: and so at a certain point you usually start, you know,
Speaker 3: like going along with the shit that they're telling you
Speaker 3: to do because you don't want stuff taken away, and
Speaker 3: then kind of simultaneously you want to not be like
Speaker 3: ostracized by the others.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a survival mechanism that kicks
Speaker 1: in and then you almost don't even know you that's
Speaker 1: what happened.
Speaker 3: Oh totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, it makes sense that you would become compliant
Speaker 2: over time, and then yeah, I have to like find
Speaker 2: a reason for that to not be because of abuse.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I also so like I because I had gone
Speaker 3: to that outpatient rehab. I had been introduced to AA
Speaker 3: and there was a guy that would take me to
Speaker 3: meetings occasionally, and he like literally wanted nothing from me,
Speaker 3: Like he didn't care if I was sober, like didn't
Speaker 3: want like never lectured me, didn't tell me like I,
Speaker 3: this is what you need to do, this, this, and that.
Speaker 3: I really just went to meetings with him, And it
Speaker 3: was only a handful of times, but I really just
Speaker 3: went to meetings with him to like appease my parents
Speaker 3: and make it seem like I was like trying to
Speaker 3: do better. But like that was kind of like I
Speaker 3: don't know, there was some seed that was planted rh Yeah,
Speaker 3: where I was just like, oh, like AA, whether I
Speaker 3: want to be sober or not is kind of cool
Speaker 3: because nobody's forcing me to do anything, and no one cares.
Speaker 3: I mean people care, but nobody's like trying to control
Speaker 3: like how I'm living my life or whether or not
Speaker 3: I stay sober. They just want to help if I'm interested.
Speaker 3: And so I recognized there that like this place is
Speaker 3: not AA, and the majority of kids don't have that,
Speaker 3: like didn't have that luxury, and so that actually was
Speaker 3: what prevented like a lot of kids that lived there
Speaker 3: like or went there, you know, left and got really
Speaker 3: fucked up and like really kind of like got off track,
Speaker 3: but like could not separate that place from AA. So
Speaker 3: they were never able to like give it a chance,
Speaker 3: which actually is why I think that like the death
Speaker 3: rate from that place is so high, because you know,
Speaker 3: like sometimes they would use like AA as like a punishment.
Speaker 3: They would like make you like an AA. You know.
Speaker 3: The kind of main piece of literature is like this
Speaker 3: book called Alcoholics Anonymous or whatever, and it kind of
Speaker 3: talks about alcoholism and kind of outlines like the Twelve
Speaker 3: Steps and stuff. And in the program, like they would
Speaker 3: make you like sometimes copy it from like the front
Speaker 3: of the book to the back like handwrite it. You know,
Speaker 3: they would kind of like bastardize like the AA program.
Speaker 2: Right, So people have no tools when they're getting out.
Speaker 1: Because they hate A I mean, like an place like
Speaker 1: an AA meeting where you might usually go to land
Speaker 1: if you're struggling with these things now is like and
Speaker 1: like it's not palatable to you because you hate it
Speaker 1: so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you've been through this thing at that point
Speaker 2: that nobody probably can understand, so like, yeah, totally makes
Speaker 2: sense that people would feel. So to contextualize what we're
Speaker 2: talking about, how do we have the final tally on
Speaker 2: how many people have committed suicide after attending this program
Speaker 2: or overdosed?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't like it's always in flux, you know,
Speaker 3: Like but I think like well over like probably like
Speaker 3: one hundred thirty or one hundred and fifty.
Speaker 4: That's insane.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and not not just from my time there, because
Speaker 3: they were probably only like from the time I got
Speaker 3: there till the time I left there are probably only
Speaker 3: like four hundred kids that kind kind of passed through there.
Speaker 3: But I would say from like the probably from like
Speaker 3: the early two thousands till when it shut I think
Speaker 3: it's shut down in like twenty fourteen or so, I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 4: So that is not that long to be open to
Speaker 4: produce that death. Like, oh my god, that's crazy.
Speaker 1: It's unfathomable. I mean, it sounds like there was a
Speaker 1: lot of physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse. It just
Speaker 1: sounds like it was ripe for everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll leave part one there for now and come
Speaker 2: back next week for part two.
Speaker 4: Megan, is, what's one of your takeaways from this first
Speaker 4: half of this interview?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I mean the snitching culture really stood
Speaker 1: out to me as just this clear Culty way to
Speaker 1: kind of breakdown the relationships between peers and get them
Speaker 1: all moving their energy and their power upward towards leaders
Speaker 1: who are terrifying.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean it's just like you just just in
Speaker 4: every fucking.
Speaker 2: Group or like abusive school, like it's the same same
Speaker 2: same thing. Tell on your tell on that person, tell
Speaker 2: on that part, like you have to. They just really
Speaker 2: want you to not trust the people around you and
Speaker 2: to be on guard all the time, to stay constantly afraid.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and to be fair, I mean obviously I mean,
Speaker 1: this is not the school that was for any of
Speaker 1: these kids, but a lot of these kids probably needed help.
Speaker 1: And uh, if one of them was going to do
Speaker 1: something dangerous to themselves or something like, yeah, it would
Speaker 1: be beneficial for an adult to know. But that's not
Speaker 1: what we're really talking about here. This is like a
Speaker 1: world that is built around you have to tell on
Speaker 1: a certain amount of things every however many days to
Speaker 1: like eat.
Speaker 2: Right, and it would be infractions that aren't in fractions,
Speaker 2: like looking at someone exactly, like I think that's the
Speaker 2: bigg Like, yes, you're correct, Like if someone's actually doing
Speaker 2: something like dangerous or or like egregiously against the goals,
Speaker 2: not really.
Speaker 1: Uh, infractions as you said, And it just builds this
Speaker 1: horrible mistrust and that's the best way to get powers.
Speaker 1: So kudos to these people for knowing their cult homework.
Speaker 2: And we really are just teaching people how to be
Speaker 2: cult leaders, like you just listen to the show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, learn all the tactics. Yeah, I'm being very facetious.
Speaker 1: Kudos not at all to the school because truly, and
Speaker 1: we get into it more next week. I mean, so
Speaker 1: many people have been lost because of the horrendous abuse
Speaker 1: at the school. So yes, thank you so much Jenny
Speaker 1: for speaking to us about it. And next week's episode
Speaker 1: is really good as well.
Speaker 2: All right, well it's a holiday week, you have a
Speaker 2: have as good a holiday as you guys can.
Speaker 1: Yeah, try to make it through and as always, remember
Speaker 1: to follow your guts, watch out for red flags.
Speaker 4: And never ever trust me.
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 4: And her theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 4: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.