1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin that you're trying to find places where there's pockets 2 00:00:22,516 --> 00:00:25,356 Speaker 1: of steam underground naturally occurring. You just need to drill 3 00:00:25,436 --> 00:00:27,916 Speaker 1: well into it, and when you find it, if you 4 00:00:27,956 --> 00:00:31,476 Speaker 1: knew exactly where to drill today, it would already be 5 00:00:31,516 --> 00:00:33,716 Speaker 1: the cheapest source of heat and steam on the planet. 6 00:00:33,836 --> 00:00:37,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is so tantalizing. Right. In fact, there are 7 00:00:37,156 --> 00:00:42,916 Speaker 2: places around the world where there's steam not that far underground, 8 00:00:42,956 --> 00:00:45,676 Speaker 2: and if only we knew where they were, we could 9 00:00:45,676 --> 00:00:48,156 Speaker 2: have a lot of clean energy. 10 00:00:48,476 --> 00:00:50,636 Speaker 1: And maybe where they are and maybe enough for all 11 00:00:50,676 --> 00:00:53,116 Speaker 1: of our energy demands just you know tomorrow, if you 12 00:00:53,156 --> 00:00:53,556 Speaker 1: knew where to. 13 00:00:53,596 --> 00:00:56,396 Speaker 2: Drill just right there, we just got to figure out where. 14 00:00:56,556 --> 00:00:58,076 Speaker 1: And so you know, that's the hunt. That's the search 15 00:00:58,156 --> 00:00:58,516 Speaker 1: that we're on. 16 00:01:04,956 --> 00:01:07,236 Speaker 2: I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the 17 00:01:07,276 --> 00:01:09,196 Speaker 2: show where I talk to people who are trying to 18 00:01:09,236 --> 00:01:13,676 Speaker 2: make technological progress. My guest today is Carl Hoyland. He's 19 00:01:13,716 --> 00:01:17,636 Speaker 2: the co founder and CEO of Zanscar, a geothermal energy company. 20 00:01:18,596 --> 00:01:21,916 Speaker 2: Geothermal energy has not had the kind of wild. 21 00:01:21,596 --> 00:01:24,316 Speaker 3: Boom that wind and solar have had over the past 22 00:01:24,476 --> 00:01:28,236 Speaker 3: decade or so, but there's a compelling case that geothermal 23 00:01:28,276 --> 00:01:31,756 Speaker 3: could be a useful compliment to wind and solar because 24 00:01:31,916 --> 00:01:33,636 Speaker 3: geothermal wells produce a. 25 00:01:33,596 --> 00:01:37,956 Speaker 4: Constant, reliable, steady stream of energy, which is quite useful 26 00:01:37,996 --> 00:01:41,036 Speaker 4: for seasons when there's not much sun or wind, and 27 00:01:41,116 --> 00:01:44,156 Speaker 4: solar panels and wind turbines are not generating much power. 28 00:01:45,556 --> 00:01:49,436 Speaker 4: And so recently a few geothermal startups have gotten to work, 29 00:01:49,916 --> 00:01:52,876 Speaker 4: and I've talked with founders from a few of these companies. 30 00:01:53,356 --> 00:01:57,596 Speaker 4: One is bringing fracking technology to geothermal. Another is trying 31 00:01:57,636 --> 00:02:00,476 Speaker 4: to use a technology that comes from fusion energy to 32 00:02:00,596 --> 00:02:05,116 Speaker 4: drill ultra deep holes. But Sandscar is doing something simpler. 33 00:02:05,796 --> 00:02:09,636 Speaker 4: They're trying to develop new ways to identify those on 34 00:02:09,636 --> 00:02:13,716 Speaker 4: the earth where there is hot steam not too far underground, 35 00:02:14,236 --> 00:02:17,796 Speaker 4: just waiting for somebody to dig a well. Carl and 36 00:02:17,836 --> 00:02:21,356 Speaker 4: his co founder both have PhDs in geology, and Carl 37 00:02:21,436 --> 00:02:24,676 Speaker 4: told me his grandfather was the person who first got 38 00:02:24,756 --> 00:02:26,116 Speaker 4: him into rocks. 39 00:02:26,356 --> 00:02:29,316 Speaker 1: My grandfather was a uranium prospector and then a gold 40 00:02:29,356 --> 00:02:31,916 Speaker 1: prospector for most of his life, and so I remember 41 00:02:31,916 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 1: as a kid going down and visiting him. They lived 42 00:02:33,996 --> 00:02:37,476 Speaker 1: in the high Sierras of northern California. He taught me 43 00:02:37,556 --> 00:02:39,476 Speaker 1: that look, if you take this understanding you can go 44 00:02:39,476 --> 00:02:41,636 Speaker 1: out and find resources, and taught me a little bit 45 00:02:41,676 --> 00:02:44,836 Speaker 1: about the economic implications of how you think about resource formation, 46 00:02:45,796 --> 00:02:47,596 Speaker 1: and so just fell in love with it. It was the 47 00:02:47,636 --> 00:02:49,556 Speaker 1: ultimate treasure hunt to think that you could go out 48 00:02:49,596 --> 00:02:53,316 Speaker 1: and find these and I wasn't thinking about the sustainability 49 00:02:53,436 --> 00:02:55,436 Speaker 1: or the climate impacts or others. Just loved that you 50 00:02:55,476 --> 00:02:58,476 Speaker 1: could go out and find this. Didn't undergraduate a PhD 51 00:02:58,596 --> 00:03:01,036 Speaker 1: degree in this, and it was really during the PhD 52 00:03:01,396 --> 00:03:03,556 Speaker 1: that I just started to really struggle with kind of 53 00:03:03,556 --> 00:03:06,316 Speaker 1: the existential reality of do we need more oil and 54 00:03:06,356 --> 00:03:08,436 Speaker 1: gas discoveries? Do we need more big open pits in 55 00:03:08,476 --> 00:03:08,876 Speaker 1: the ground. 56 00:03:09,116 --> 00:03:11,796 Speaker 2: I mean, if you're a geologist, the basic career path 57 00:03:11,916 --> 00:03:14,076 Speaker 2: is go find oil right for the last whatever one 58 00:03:14,116 --> 00:03:16,916 Speaker 2: hundred years. If you're a geologist, then you want a job. 59 00:03:16,956 --> 00:03:18,796 Speaker 2: You can definitely get a job finding oil. Is that 60 00:03:18,836 --> 00:03:20,836 Speaker 2: basically the story Historically. 61 00:03:20,516 --> 00:03:22,476 Speaker 1: That's where a lot of the geologists go. And there's 62 00:03:22,516 --> 00:03:24,516 Speaker 1: other routes as well, But you know a lot of 63 00:03:24,556 --> 00:03:26,876 Speaker 1: geologists weren't drawn into it initially for that reason. They 64 00:03:26,916 --> 00:03:29,996 Speaker 1: just loved the storytelling aspect of being outdoors, the scientific 65 00:03:29,996 --> 00:03:32,676 Speaker 1: discovery process, and so for me, it was really kind 66 00:03:32,676 --> 00:03:34,396 Speaker 1: of thinking about, are there other ways to apply this 67 00:03:34,436 --> 00:03:37,236 Speaker 1: skill set that society actually needs a lot more of 68 00:03:37,476 --> 00:03:39,676 Speaker 1: and maybe that have been underinvested in. So it's really 69 00:03:39,676 --> 00:03:41,476 Speaker 1: towards the end of our PhDs that my co founder 70 00:03:41,476 --> 00:03:43,956 Speaker 1: and I were really looking at this landscape and thinking about, 71 00:03:44,476 --> 00:03:46,756 Speaker 1: you know, what could we do next, what does society 72 00:03:46,796 --> 00:03:49,236 Speaker 1: really need a lot more of? And we just started 73 00:03:49,236 --> 00:03:50,916 Speaker 1: speaking to as many people as we could in the 74 00:03:50,916 --> 00:03:54,836 Speaker 1: industries and the power sector thinking about energy. And you know, 75 00:03:54,876 --> 00:03:57,436 Speaker 1: I'd say, even when we brought up the topic of geothermal, 76 00:03:57,516 --> 00:03:59,636 Speaker 1: most people would tell us that's too hard to do, 77 00:03:59,716 --> 00:04:02,836 Speaker 1: it's too small a niche, and nobody really needs baseload 78 00:04:02,836 --> 00:04:06,076 Speaker 1: power anymore. This was the late twenty tens, and everyone 79 00:04:06,156 --> 00:04:07,796 Speaker 1: was kind of thinking, well, we've kind of solved it 80 00:04:07,836 --> 00:04:10,956 Speaker 1: with solar and battery, but there were a few voices 81 00:04:10,996 --> 00:04:14,356 Speaker 1: out there saying and running sophisticated models that you know what, actually, 82 00:04:14,396 --> 00:04:16,756 Speaker 1: once you get above fifty percent or sixty seventy eighty 83 00:04:16,756 --> 00:04:20,836 Speaker 1: percent penetration of solar and battery, you start realizing that 84 00:04:20,876 --> 00:04:23,396 Speaker 1: costs start going up unless you have a dispatchable or 85 00:04:23,396 --> 00:04:24,516 Speaker 1: baseload energy source. 86 00:04:25,316 --> 00:04:28,436 Speaker 2: Right, So, just to be clear, it's easy relatively easy 87 00:04:28,436 --> 00:04:31,236 Speaker 2: to get some solar power to display some of the 88 00:04:31,396 --> 00:04:34,516 Speaker 2: power consumption with solar, but the more you get, the 89 00:04:34,596 --> 00:04:39,676 Speaker 2: harder the sort of marginal unit is because the sun 90 00:04:39,756 --> 00:04:41,836 Speaker 2: doesn't shine all the time in short and it's expensive 91 00:04:41,836 --> 00:04:42,836 Speaker 2: to keep adding batteries. 92 00:04:42,996 --> 00:04:45,196 Speaker 1: That's right, and you can start to solve the daily, 93 00:04:45,396 --> 00:04:49,036 Speaker 1: the diurnal cycles, but then you deal with seasonal cycles 94 00:04:49,076 --> 00:04:51,596 Speaker 1: where you start needing long duration storage and technologies that 95 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:54,676 Speaker 1: aren't mature yet. And that's where the models really started 96 00:04:54,676 --> 00:04:58,036 Speaker 1: to point to you're going to need something baseload or dispatchable, 97 00:04:58,476 --> 00:05:01,276 Speaker 1: and you don't have that many options. It's nuclear, it's hydro, 98 00:05:01,396 --> 00:05:03,956 Speaker 1: which we're not building much more of, or it's geothermal. 99 00:05:04,476 --> 00:05:07,916 Speaker 1: And that's where we started getting excited about the geothermal 100 00:05:07,916 --> 00:05:09,956 Speaker 1: opportunity and saying, okay, well, what's holding it back? Why 101 00:05:09,956 --> 00:05:12,436 Speaker 1: aren't there jobs here? Why isn't anybody building? And that 102 00:05:12,516 --> 00:05:14,556 Speaker 1: let us down I think a very deep rabbit hole 103 00:05:14,956 --> 00:05:18,196 Speaker 1: of a fifty plus year history of geothermal energy and 104 00:05:18,236 --> 00:05:19,996 Speaker 1: why it's been stagnant for decades. 105 00:05:20,596 --> 00:05:24,156 Speaker 2: So let's do that fifty year rabbit hole briefly, not 106 00:05:24,196 --> 00:05:27,676 Speaker 2: in real time, but like, what is that story briefly? 107 00:05:28,196 --> 00:05:30,836 Speaker 1: So Briefly, there was this recognition because in some places 108 00:05:30,876 --> 00:05:34,076 Speaker 1: you see geothermal energy coming out of the surface geysers, fumaroles, 109 00:05:34,116 --> 00:05:37,436 Speaker 1: boiling mud pots. So we knew there was this energy underground, 110 00:05:38,156 --> 00:05:39,996 Speaker 1: and the more we explored the planet, the more we 111 00:05:40,036 --> 00:05:42,956 Speaker 1: realized in almost all locations, actually everywhere, as you go deeper, 112 00:05:42,956 --> 00:05:45,596 Speaker 1: it gets hotter. So there were some early experiments, even 113 00:05:45,596 --> 00:05:47,516 Speaker 1: going back one hundred years ago in Italy, of just 114 00:05:47,556 --> 00:05:49,516 Speaker 1: putting a steam turbine at the top and getting your 115 00:05:49,556 --> 00:05:50,756 Speaker 1: steam from the earth instead of. 116 00:05:50,676 --> 00:05:53,276 Speaker 2: Fighting if steam is coming out of the ground, it's like, wait, 117 00:05:53,316 --> 00:05:55,516 Speaker 2: we know what to do with steam. Turn a turbine 118 00:05:55,556 --> 00:05:56,476 Speaker 2: and make electricity. 119 00:05:56,516 --> 00:05:59,036 Speaker 1: That's right, But in an overtime realizing okay, you're gonna 120 00:05:59,036 --> 00:06:01,156 Speaker 1: have to drill into these in most places to get 121 00:06:01,156 --> 00:06:04,396 Speaker 1: that level of steam. It took another fifty years before 122 00:06:04,396 --> 00:06:07,436 Speaker 1: this started to become a more industrial scale opportunity. You 123 00:06:07,476 --> 00:06:09,236 Speaker 1: start seeing a lot of this in the sixties, and 124 00:06:09,276 --> 00:06:12,396 Speaker 1: then honestly, what really drove a lot of demand in 125 00:06:12,436 --> 00:06:14,596 Speaker 1: the United States, which was really the leader at this time, 126 00:06:15,196 --> 00:06:18,036 Speaker 1: was starting to think about the risk of relying on 127 00:06:18,116 --> 00:06:20,956 Speaker 1: external sources of energy, and so the energy crisis in 128 00:06:20,996 --> 00:06:26,156 Speaker 1: the late seventies really catalyzed this enormous push into geothermal energy. 129 00:06:26,516 --> 00:06:28,756 Speaker 1: Not because it was carbon free, not even because it 130 00:06:28,756 --> 00:06:31,796 Speaker 1: was baseload, but simply because it was a domestic energy source. 131 00:06:32,516 --> 00:06:35,116 Speaker 2: We didn't fracking hadn't happened, yet, we were relying on 132 00:06:35,196 --> 00:06:37,036 Speaker 2: oil from the Middle East. There was the Arab oil 133 00:06:37,076 --> 00:06:38,476 Speaker 2: embargo in the early seventies. 134 00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:40,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I wasn't old enough to be there, but 135 00:06:40,316 --> 00:06:41,956 Speaker 1: I've definitely heard these stories of the A and B 136 00:06:42,076 --> 00:06:44,036 Speaker 1: days at the gas station, and so thinking about, like, 137 00:06:44,116 --> 00:06:46,476 Speaker 1: how can we source this domestically and have that independence? 138 00:06:46,836 --> 00:06:49,396 Speaker 1: And this drove many the oil and gas majors and 139 00:06:49,436 --> 00:06:52,676 Speaker 1: other large companies and investors into the space. And they 140 00:06:52,716 --> 00:06:55,316 Speaker 1: just started exploring all over looking for more of these 141 00:06:55,356 --> 00:06:57,836 Speaker 1: places where you could develop geothermal energy. 142 00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:02,356 Speaker 2: And yet we are not a geothermally powered society at 143 00:07:02,356 --> 00:07:03,956 Speaker 2: this moment. What happened while we were wrong. 144 00:07:04,036 --> 00:07:06,516 Speaker 1: So these were pioneers, right, they're doing this for the 145 00:07:06,556 --> 00:07:08,676 Speaker 1: first time. Imagine going out and you're drilling a well 146 00:07:08,716 --> 00:07:11,076 Speaker 1: into some that could be five hundred, six hundred, maybe 147 00:07:11,076 --> 00:07:14,036 Speaker 1: seven hundred fahrenheit. Nobody's done this before, and so they're 148 00:07:14,156 --> 00:07:16,156 Speaker 1: figuring things out as they go it's incredible. They really 149 00:07:16,196 --> 00:07:19,076 Speaker 1: lay the foundation for both the engineering and the science. 150 00:07:19,716 --> 00:07:21,636 Speaker 1: But things start to fall apart in terms of the 151 00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:25,596 Speaker 1: drivers that was motivating this is the energy crisis actually 152 00:07:25,636 --> 00:07:29,156 Speaker 1: started to resolve. Oil prices came down and relations were. 153 00:07:28,956 --> 00:07:30,836 Speaker 2: Better, We got oil again. 154 00:07:30,916 --> 00:07:32,956 Speaker 1: It was like whatever, and then it's like, okay, well, 155 00:07:32,956 --> 00:07:36,836 Speaker 1: oil actually is cheaper at that time, and so although 156 00:07:36,876 --> 00:07:40,556 Speaker 1: they added gigawatts and geothermal was really the fastest growing 157 00:07:40,596 --> 00:07:43,196 Speaker 1: source of energy at the time, fastest growing renewable, by 158 00:07:43,236 --> 00:07:45,916 Speaker 1: the mid eighties you see most of that really fall 159 00:07:45,956 --> 00:07:47,596 Speaker 1: apart and many of those companies shut down. 160 00:07:47,556 --> 00:07:50,236 Speaker 2: And it's basically just oh, oil is cheap and abundant again, 161 00:07:50,276 --> 00:07:52,836 Speaker 2: and we know how to go get oil more efficiently 162 00:07:52,876 --> 00:07:55,276 Speaker 2: than we know how to go get geothermal energy. 163 00:07:56,036 --> 00:07:58,116 Speaker 1: But luckily a lot of those lessons stayed. There was 164 00:07:58,116 --> 00:07:59,956 Speaker 1: a lot of interest still in the background of maybe 165 00:07:59,956 --> 00:08:02,036 Speaker 1: we're going to need this again one day, and so 166 00:08:02,036 --> 00:08:04,556 Speaker 1: there's slow progress being made in the background, and it's 167 00:08:04,596 --> 00:08:06,996 Speaker 1: not until really the late two thousands that you start 168 00:08:07,036 --> 00:08:10,636 Speaker 1: to have another large driver towards ge thermal energy, and 169 00:08:10,676 --> 00:08:14,076 Speaker 1: this time it's because it's carbon free. Now we're thinking 170 00:08:14,116 --> 00:08:16,756 Speaker 1: about how do you decarbonize our energy systems, and you 171 00:08:16,836 --> 00:08:19,916 Speaker 1: have this actually relatively low cost of carbon free energy, 172 00:08:20,436 --> 00:08:22,636 Speaker 1: and you see a lot more activity and investment in 173 00:08:22,636 --> 00:08:25,996 Speaker 1: the space new power plants coming online again, but this 174 00:08:26,196 --> 00:08:28,876 Speaker 1: time they didn't have that same energy and exploration a 175 00:08:28,916 --> 00:08:31,676 Speaker 1: spirit of that first wave. They're mostly going after the 176 00:08:31,676 --> 00:08:34,316 Speaker 1: low hanging fruit, things that were already known or found. 177 00:08:35,716 --> 00:08:38,236 Speaker 1: And today even most of our plants come from those 178 00:08:38,236 --> 00:08:40,996 Speaker 1: two waves of development. In the US, in half of 179 00:08:41,036 --> 00:08:44,876 Speaker 1: the operating fields today had been discovered initially by accident. 180 00:08:45,476 --> 00:08:47,596 Speaker 2: People were like drilling for oil and they were like, wait, 181 00:08:47,636 --> 00:08:50,196 Speaker 2: that's not oil, that's water or whatever. 182 00:08:50,276 --> 00:08:52,236 Speaker 1: Yea, how are drilling for water on a ranch or 183 00:08:52,316 --> 00:08:54,356 Speaker 1: drilling for gold? And so you have this kind of 184 00:08:54,356 --> 00:08:58,396 Speaker 1: trickle of discoveries coming in that were unintended, serendipitous, and 185 00:08:58,436 --> 00:09:00,396 Speaker 1: those are the opportunities that many of the developers in 186 00:09:00,436 --> 00:09:02,636 Speaker 1: that late two thousands early twenty tens era jump. 187 00:09:02,396 --> 00:09:05,316 Speaker 2: At, sure, like why not, it's right there. 188 00:09:05,316 --> 00:09:07,916 Speaker 1: And this is looking great because in great geothermal resources 189 00:09:07,956 --> 00:09:10,796 Speaker 1: they deliver at a good price, they're long lived. But 190 00:09:10,876 --> 00:09:14,276 Speaker 1: by the mid twenty tens, this is when shale gas 191 00:09:14,316 --> 00:09:17,756 Speaker 1: prices really start coming down, and now you have this 192 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:21,276 Speaker 1: steep competition from a low cost source of carbon emitting power, 193 00:09:21,756 --> 00:09:24,236 Speaker 1: and it really undercuts geothermal at the same time that 194 00:09:24,316 --> 00:09:25,276 Speaker 1: solar is coming down. 195 00:09:25,476 --> 00:09:29,116 Speaker 2: So basically you can do because of fracking, basically what 196 00:09:29,196 --> 00:09:32,556 Speaker 2: is popularly called tracking right, natural gas gets really cheap 197 00:09:32,596 --> 00:09:34,756 Speaker 2: and that can be the sort of complement to solar, 198 00:09:34,956 --> 00:09:38,636 Speaker 2: although of course it has the problem of emitting carbon dioxide, 199 00:09:38,756 --> 00:09:40,276 Speaker 2: but economically it's tough to beat. 200 00:09:40,436 --> 00:09:43,316 Speaker 1: That's right, And so I think now we're in this 201 00:09:43,396 --> 00:09:46,036 Speaker 1: third wave, a totally different set of economic drivers and 202 00:09:46,076 --> 00:09:48,916 Speaker 1: also different technology tools that are available, and it's being 203 00:09:48,996 --> 00:09:51,796 Speaker 1: driven not by any one of those, but actually all 204 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:54,196 Speaker 1: of those together. We now do care about having a 205 00:09:54,196 --> 00:09:57,516 Speaker 1: domestic energy source, so that's great. We care about it 206 00:09:57,516 --> 00:09:59,756 Speaker 1: being carbon free because we have to arrive at that 207 00:09:59,796 --> 00:10:04,156 Speaker 1: point someday. But geothermal is also proving uniquely valuable because 208 00:10:04,156 --> 00:10:07,396 Speaker 1: it's a dispatchable base load energy source day and night, 209 00:10:07,436 --> 00:10:09,556 Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty five days a year, and so 210 00:10:09,996 --> 00:10:13,996 Speaker 1: that provides incredible resilience and stability to the grid, especially 211 00:10:14,036 --> 00:10:16,636 Speaker 1: in places where you have high rates of intermittent renewables 212 00:10:16,676 --> 00:10:17,076 Speaker 1: on the grid. 213 00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:21,396 Speaker 2: So what's the landscape more generally, right, like the big 214 00:10:21,436 --> 00:10:24,676 Speaker 2: oil and gas companies like are they geothermal curious? Like 215 00:10:24,676 --> 00:10:25,836 Speaker 2: what where are they right now? 216 00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:27,996 Speaker 1: I'd say they're geothermal curious. And we've seen a lot 217 00:10:27,996 --> 00:10:30,236 Speaker 1: of kind of starting to dip their toes, but none 218 00:10:30,276 --> 00:10:32,916 Speaker 1: of them really moving in with full force. And this 219 00:10:33,076 --> 00:10:35,876 Speaker 1: is really left kind of a startup ecosystem that has 220 00:10:35,876 --> 00:10:38,436 Speaker 1: had to rely on venture backing to go out and 221 00:10:38,476 --> 00:10:42,196 Speaker 1: test new ideas, new technologies, and new markets for geothermal 222 00:10:42,756 --> 00:10:45,556 Speaker 1: and a lot of that really started five plus just 223 00:10:45,596 --> 00:10:48,156 Speaker 1: over five years ago, and you're now seeing those companies 224 00:10:48,636 --> 00:10:51,596 Speaker 1: reach their first commercial scale pilots, first demonstrations, and you're 225 00:10:51,596 --> 00:10:54,076 Speaker 1: starting to see the real kind of in the ground 226 00:10:54,276 --> 00:10:57,756 Speaker 1: element of that work. And it's pretty incredible when you 227 00:10:58,196 --> 00:11:00,116 Speaker 1: look at the amount of successes that have been had 228 00:11:00,636 --> 00:11:03,076 Speaker 1: relative to how much funding has gone into it, which 229 00:11:03,076 --> 00:11:05,396 Speaker 1: is actually still quite small compared to other industries. 230 00:11:06,196 --> 00:11:09,996 Speaker 2: So let's talk about zanscover in particular your play where 231 00:11:09,996 --> 00:11:10,396 Speaker 2: do you fit? 232 00:11:11,036 --> 00:11:13,476 Speaker 1: So we're looking at this landscape, is all this heat underground, 233 00:11:13,516 --> 00:11:17,276 Speaker 1: many ways to extract it, and you know, just like 234 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:20,916 Speaker 1: oil and gas, the industry looks very similar to it 235 00:11:20,916 --> 00:11:23,916 Speaker 1: one hundred years ago. Half the resources were found by accident, 236 00:11:23,956 --> 00:11:26,516 Speaker 1: the other half had obvious seeps at the surface. 237 00:11:26,756 --> 00:11:29,956 Speaker 2: It's like in Pennsylvania one hundred and forty years ago 238 00:11:29,956 --> 00:11:31,876 Speaker 2: and they're like, oh, there's oil coming out of the 239 00:11:31,996 --> 00:11:33,796 Speaker 2: rock here, maybe we should put it in a barrel. 240 00:11:33,836 --> 00:11:35,636 Speaker 2: That's right. It was a moment when the barrels cost 241 00:11:35,756 --> 00:11:38,036 Speaker 2: more than the oil. It's one of my favorite details 242 00:11:38,076 --> 00:11:38,596 Speaker 2: from that era. 243 00:11:39,276 --> 00:11:41,876 Speaker 1: And so you see geothermal and you then realize, Okay, 244 00:11:41,916 --> 00:11:43,956 Speaker 1: if that's how the industry is today, there must be 245 00:11:44,196 --> 00:11:48,356 Speaker 1: much much more underground. And we're also looking at two 246 00:11:48,516 --> 00:11:52,476 Speaker 1: major tail wings of technology. One is AI and data 247 00:11:52,516 --> 00:11:54,956 Speaker 1: science is allowing us to now process huge amounts of 248 00:11:54,996 --> 00:11:57,356 Speaker 1: data and become more predictive in where we drill and 249 00:11:57,356 --> 00:11:59,636 Speaker 1: how we drill. And on the other side, we're seeing 250 00:11:59,756 --> 00:12:03,156 Speaker 1: drilling costs come down as our technologies for drilling become 251 00:12:03,196 --> 00:12:05,956 Speaker 1: more sophisticated and allows us to drill deeper and deeper 252 00:12:05,956 --> 00:12:08,396 Speaker 1: into these resources. Yeah, but it's really this landscape of 253 00:12:08,476 --> 00:12:11,516 Speaker 1: new technologies that hadn't been applied, and interestingly, some of 254 00:12:11,516 --> 00:12:14,276 Speaker 1: those originated in geothermal in the first place. Oh I 255 00:12:14,316 --> 00:12:16,516 Speaker 1: mentioned that big wave of development of the late seventies 256 00:12:16,516 --> 00:12:19,196 Speaker 1: and eighties. They recognized back then actually that it was 257 00:12:19,196 --> 00:12:21,516 Speaker 1: hard to find these resources, and that you drilled many 258 00:12:21,596 --> 00:12:24,076 Speaker 1: dry wells where it was very hot, but there was 259 00:12:24,156 --> 00:12:27,276 Speaker 1: no permeability or no water underground, right, And so they 260 00:12:27,356 --> 00:12:29,076 Speaker 1: dreamed up the idea at that time of well, what 261 00:12:29,116 --> 00:12:31,156 Speaker 1: if we fracked or stimulated this rock. 262 00:12:31,316 --> 00:12:33,356 Speaker 2: What if we put water into the hot rock and 263 00:12:33,396 --> 00:12:35,476 Speaker 2: then brought it back out exactly? 264 00:12:35,476 --> 00:12:38,116 Speaker 1: And so the early experiments are fifty plus years old, 265 00:12:38,516 --> 00:12:41,276 Speaker 1: and they started to identify what might be possible, and 266 00:12:41,316 --> 00:12:43,596 Speaker 1: it was just kind of a slow incremental gain over 267 00:12:43,636 --> 00:12:45,356 Speaker 1: the years and really hits a tipping point just in 268 00:12:45,396 --> 00:12:48,156 Speaker 1: the last few years. On the other hand, they also 269 00:12:48,196 --> 00:12:50,076 Speaker 1: recognized it was hard to find these resources, and so 270 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:52,396 Speaker 1: a lot of early effort into can we develop new 271 00:12:52,476 --> 00:12:54,876 Speaker 1: data methods new ways of integrating that data to predict 272 00:12:54,916 --> 00:12:58,236 Speaker 1: locations also started then, but only in the last few 273 00:12:58,276 --> 00:13:00,836 Speaker 1: years hit that same tipping point of well we can 274 00:13:00,876 --> 00:13:02,516 Speaker 1: now do it systematically in a scale. 275 00:13:02,676 --> 00:13:04,436 Speaker 2: Yes, we're at a time where if you have a 276 00:13:04,476 --> 00:13:07,156 Speaker 2: lot of data and want to make a prediction, you're 277 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:07,596 Speaker 2: in luck. 278 00:13:07,836 --> 00:13:09,716 Speaker 1: Right, it's a good time to be that business. 279 00:13:10,476 --> 00:13:11,916 Speaker 2: So let's talk about the aipiece. 280 00:13:11,996 --> 00:13:12,156 Speaker 1: Right. 281 00:13:12,196 --> 00:13:14,596 Speaker 2: So it's like, Okay, we're good at drilling now and presumably, 282 00:13:14,636 --> 00:13:18,236 Speaker 2: at least as a species, we're better at using data 283 00:13:18,316 --> 00:13:22,356 Speaker 2: to make predictions about the world. Specifically, there was a 284 00:13:22,396 --> 00:13:24,636 Speaker 2: post you guys wrote, I think when you announce your 285 00:13:24,676 --> 00:13:26,236 Speaker 2: series A or something a couple of years ago, and 286 00:13:26,276 --> 00:13:28,116 Speaker 2: you sort of wrote like, what are your key moves 287 00:13:28,116 --> 00:13:30,676 Speaker 2: your key angles, And one of them was leveraging big 288 00:13:30,756 --> 00:13:34,716 Speaker 2: data and predictive modeling to discover new resources. And I 289 00:13:34,836 --> 00:13:37,516 Speaker 2: noticed by the way that you didn't use the term 290 00:13:37,596 --> 00:13:39,276 Speaker 2: AI there, and it was I think it was just 291 00:13:39,356 --> 00:13:42,956 Speaker 2: before chat GPT came out, So I was tangentially curious. 292 00:13:43,036 --> 00:13:45,916 Speaker 2: Was that deliberate or was it just everybody didn't say 293 00:13:45,956 --> 00:13:48,916 Speaker 2: AI then they just said predictive modeling. 294 00:13:48,956 --> 00:13:50,436 Speaker 1: It's a little bit of both. You know, AI can 295 00:13:50,476 --> 00:13:53,436 Speaker 1: be such a buzzword. Everyone's AI company. Now what does 296 00:13:53,436 --> 00:13:55,596 Speaker 1: that really mean? And we'll talk in a little bit 297 00:13:55,596 --> 00:13:58,316 Speaker 1: about there's some really sophisticated stuff happening in house here. 298 00:13:58,636 --> 00:14:01,076 Speaker 1: But the other part of it is that exploration. We 299 00:14:01,156 --> 00:14:03,516 Speaker 1: break into two stages, and the first part of discovering 300 00:14:03,516 --> 00:14:08,196 Speaker 1: new resources in some ways can rely on more traditional 301 00:14:08,476 --> 00:14:11,196 Speaker 1: data science machine learning tools from kind of five to 302 00:14:11,236 --> 00:14:14,476 Speaker 1: fifteen years ago. And so they're exciting, they're cutting edge 303 00:14:14,476 --> 00:14:16,716 Speaker 1: and new for the industry, but they aren't necessarily the 304 00:14:16,756 --> 00:14:19,836 Speaker 1: type of latest generation AI that you're seeing a lot 305 00:14:19,836 --> 00:14:22,876 Speaker 1: of now, which applies more to our later stage exploration work. 306 00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:25,276 Speaker 2: Say more about that. So it's like you have the 307 00:14:25,316 --> 00:14:27,116 Speaker 2: whole Earth and you say where should we go? And 308 00:14:27,156 --> 00:14:30,316 Speaker 2: there's kind of older technologies give you a big circle 309 00:14:30,356 --> 00:14:32,996 Speaker 2: and then newer technologies give you a smaller circle or something. 310 00:14:33,196 --> 00:14:34,916 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's the simplest way to think about it. 311 00:14:34,956 --> 00:14:36,836 Speaker 1: And so if that's the search that we're one and 312 00:14:37,156 --> 00:14:39,596 Speaker 1: for that problem, you take all of these regional scale 313 00:14:39,676 --> 00:14:42,796 Speaker 1: data sets, some from satellites, from remote sensing drones, from 314 00:14:42,836 --> 00:14:45,516 Speaker 1: ground based sensors, dozens of data inputs, some of which 315 00:14:45,556 --> 00:14:48,396 Speaker 1: might be the Earth's gravitational field, it's magnetic field, the 316 00:14:48,436 --> 00:14:50,796 Speaker 1: resistivity of rocks, the fault lines, the geology. All of 317 00:14:50,836 --> 00:14:53,276 Speaker 1: this data goes in, gets cleaned up, put into these 318 00:14:53,276 --> 00:14:56,516 Speaker 1: machine learning models to then help you predict the favorability 319 00:14:56,716 --> 00:14:59,916 Speaker 1: or location of a site that's worth testing or drilling. 320 00:15:00,396 --> 00:15:03,076 Speaker 1: And we've taken those models and now gone out in 321 00:15:03,076 --> 00:15:06,916 Speaker 1: the field and drilled many of these prospects and have 322 00:15:06,996 --> 00:15:10,196 Speaker 1: been really blown away at the level of success we've 323 00:15:10,236 --> 00:15:12,716 Speaker 1: been able to have in that that we've already found 324 00:15:12,836 --> 00:15:16,596 Speaker 1: more new geothermal systems than the entire industry combined had 325 00:15:16,636 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 1: done over the last thirty years. 326 00:15:18,276 --> 00:15:21,196 Speaker 2: Wait say that part again. You in how long you found? 327 00:15:21,196 --> 00:15:24,436 Speaker 1: How much relative to what in just the last three years? 328 00:15:24,956 --> 00:15:28,556 Speaker 2: Okay? And is that real? Like if I don't know 329 00:15:28,596 --> 00:15:31,756 Speaker 2: the smart question to ask you to validate that claim, 330 00:15:32,316 --> 00:15:34,516 Speaker 2: but like validate that claim? 331 00:15:34,836 --> 00:15:36,836 Speaker 1: Yeah? So mean. So part of this is we already 332 00:15:36,876 --> 00:15:39,276 Speaker 1: just talked about people stopped looking. So part of the 333 00:15:39,316 --> 00:15:41,836 Speaker 1: problem is that, like these models gave us the confidence 334 00:15:41,876 --> 00:15:43,356 Speaker 1: to even look, to go out and start testing and 335 00:15:43,396 --> 00:15:44,316 Speaker 1: putting money in the ground. 336 00:15:44,556 --> 00:15:48,196 Speaker 2: So basically people stopped looking. And then basically AI call 337 00:15:48,236 --> 00:15:50,236 Speaker 2: it machine learning if you want, got way better. And 338 00:15:50,276 --> 00:15:52,676 Speaker 2: you're like, oh, what if we took these new tools 339 00:15:53,436 --> 00:15:54,436 Speaker 2: and when looked again. 340 00:15:54,596 --> 00:15:55,916 Speaker 1: But the other side of it is we actually have 341 00:15:55,916 --> 00:15:58,876 Speaker 1: built tools that are more predictive than humans, that we've 342 00:15:58,876 --> 00:16:00,956 Speaker 1: developed cheaper methods to collect the data and test, and 343 00:16:00,956 --> 00:16:03,316 Speaker 1: we've gone out and when we drill these holes in 344 00:16:03,596 --> 00:16:08,236 Speaker 1: several locations, we've actually hit boiling temperatures at very shallow depth, 345 00:16:08,396 --> 00:16:10,436 Speaker 1: say fifty in some of these locations. 346 00:16:10,836 --> 00:16:13,316 Speaker 2: And if I were like a smart, skeptical funder What 347 00:16:13,396 --> 00:16:14,556 Speaker 2: would I ask you right now? 348 00:16:16,756 --> 00:16:18,316 Speaker 1: You should just come out and see these sites. 349 00:16:18,436 --> 00:16:21,876 Speaker 2: See this, I know, but like whatever, That doesn't mean 350 00:16:21,916 --> 00:16:24,716 Speaker 2: they'd work at commercial scale exactly That what I would say. 351 00:16:24,716 --> 00:16:26,236 Speaker 1: So, yeah, we know there's something there. We know there's 352 00:16:26,236 --> 00:16:29,396 Speaker 1: a geothermal system, there's convection underground, hot water's coming up 353 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:30,876 Speaker 1: close to the surface. How do you know this is 354 00:16:30,876 --> 00:16:32,036 Speaker 1: going to be a power plant one day? How do 355 00:16:32,036 --> 00:16:33,676 Speaker 1: you know what we're going to make money with this resource? 356 00:16:33,796 --> 00:16:35,596 Speaker 1: And that's where the second stage comes in. 357 00:16:35,956 --> 00:16:37,276 Speaker 2: Okay, go on. 358 00:16:37,796 --> 00:16:39,556 Speaker 1: So we know there's something there, Where is it? How 359 00:16:39,556 --> 00:16:41,196 Speaker 1: do we drill into it? And can we go deeper 360 00:16:41,196 --> 00:16:43,476 Speaker 1: and deeper into it? And that's where some of these 361 00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:47,076 Speaker 1: more next generation forms of AI become really important because 362 00:16:47,076 --> 00:16:49,076 Speaker 1: now you enter a data sparse space. 363 00:16:49,716 --> 00:16:52,956 Speaker 2: Uh huh. So you're trying to make predictions with less data. 364 00:16:52,556 --> 00:16:54,356 Speaker 1: With less data, and this is where you have to 365 00:16:54,396 --> 00:16:59,236 Speaker 1: rely on a combination of things, first principles, scientific understanding 366 00:16:59,276 --> 00:17:02,196 Speaker 1: to allow you to do simulations. And so we enter 367 00:17:02,196 --> 00:17:04,236 Speaker 1: into the space where you're essentially creating digital twins of 368 00:17:04,276 --> 00:17:05,556 Speaker 1: the subsurface. 369 00:17:05,276 --> 00:17:07,876 Speaker 2: Right because you don't know what's under there. So when 370 00:17:07,876 --> 00:17:10,756 Speaker 2: you say digital twin your guessing, because if you know, 371 00:17:10,836 --> 00:17:13,116 Speaker 2: you wouldn't need to do the work, you'd be done exactly. 372 00:17:13,556 --> 00:17:16,116 Speaker 1: But you do know physically what is possible, so there 373 00:17:16,116 --> 00:17:19,076 Speaker 1: are limitations on what could be down there. Yeah, and 374 00:17:19,116 --> 00:17:22,596 Speaker 1: so by taking into account those physics and geologic principles, 375 00:17:22,716 --> 00:17:25,836 Speaker 1: you can model all of that possibility space, combine these 376 00:17:25,876 --> 00:17:27,676 Speaker 1: into a framework by which you could say, if I 377 00:17:27,756 --> 00:17:31,836 Speaker 1: drill here, here's what is possible probabilistically, whole range of 378 00:17:31,836 --> 00:17:34,716 Speaker 1: possible outcomes. And even though I can't say one hundred 379 00:17:34,716 --> 00:17:37,596 Speaker 1: percent this is the outcome, I can say with confidence 380 00:17:37,636 --> 00:17:39,076 Speaker 1: that if I drill many of these wells with that 381 00:17:39,116 --> 00:17:42,276 Speaker 1: same profile, this is going to be my portfolio level outcome. 382 00:17:42,956 --> 00:17:45,996 Speaker 1: And that starts to become scalable. That starts to because 383 00:17:46,036 --> 00:17:47,596 Speaker 1: something you can allocate capital. 384 00:17:47,236 --> 00:17:51,076 Speaker 2: To, assuming your probabilistic estimates are correct, right, assuming you 385 00:17:51,156 --> 00:17:53,476 Speaker 2: know the sort of AerR bars around your guesses. 386 00:17:53,596 --> 00:17:53,956 Speaker 1: That's right. 387 00:17:54,716 --> 00:17:58,316 Speaker 2: So another one of the points in that post you 388 00:17:58,396 --> 00:18:00,116 Speaker 2: wrote a couple of years ago when I think it 389 00:18:00,156 --> 00:18:02,556 Speaker 2: was the series A, the next one, and it seems 390 00:18:02,556 --> 00:18:04,956 Speaker 2: like what we're walking up to now, so I'll mention 391 00:18:05,036 --> 00:18:10,036 Speaker 2: it was leveraging stochastic geomodeling and decision signs to optimize 392 00:18:10,116 --> 00:18:13,996 Speaker 2: exploration workflow for de risking. So the phrase that was 393 00:18:14,076 --> 00:18:19,236 Speaker 2: interesting to me there was decision science. What is decision 394 00:18:19,276 --> 00:18:20,716 Speaker 2: science and how are you using it? 395 00:18:20,876 --> 00:18:24,356 Speaker 1: And so again you're entering into this data sparse problem 396 00:18:25,116 --> 00:18:27,796 Speaker 1: where you're going to make a series of decisions. I 397 00:18:27,876 --> 00:18:30,236 Speaker 1: might drill well here or there, five wells or three 398 00:18:30,236 --> 00:18:32,956 Speaker 1: wells in this order to this depth this type of well. 399 00:18:33,276 --> 00:18:35,276 Speaker 1: Or I could go collect new data. I could collect 400 00:18:35,636 --> 00:18:38,356 Speaker 1: gravitational data, geologic data, seismic data. 401 00:18:38,436 --> 00:18:41,076 Speaker 2: And there's a trade off, right, gathering data is costly, 402 00:18:41,556 --> 00:18:45,196 Speaker 2: but not as costly as digging a dry well. And 403 00:18:45,316 --> 00:18:47,916 Speaker 2: so how do you weigh that? I mean, it's that 404 00:18:47,956 --> 00:18:51,636 Speaker 2: the fundamental kind of economic or technoeconomic question you're trying 405 00:18:51,636 --> 00:18:52,556 Speaker 2: to answered. 406 00:18:52,636 --> 00:18:55,636 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. And historically we've relied on geologists who 407 00:18:55,716 --> 00:18:58,756 Speaker 1: are specialized and trained in this field to be able 408 00:18:58,796 --> 00:19:02,956 Speaker 1: to make those hard, subjective decisions under extreme uncertainty, and 409 00:19:02,996 --> 00:19:05,036 Speaker 1: they'll recommend, Okay, this is what we should do next. 410 00:19:05,756 --> 00:19:07,956 Speaker 1: But there's a few issues with that. And again I'm 411 00:19:07,956 --> 00:19:12,076 Speaker 1: a geologist, so I don't mean this to shade throw shade, 412 00:19:12,316 --> 00:19:15,956 Speaker 1: but it's one is not very scalable because if you 413 00:19:15,996 --> 00:19:18,916 Speaker 1: want to drill thousands or millions of these wells, there's 414 00:19:18,956 --> 00:19:22,636 Speaker 1: actually a very few, very expert level geologists. Yeah, only 415 00:19:22,676 --> 00:19:25,276 Speaker 1: a couple of dozen globally that have drilled say a 416 00:19:25,276 --> 00:19:26,996 Speaker 1: dozen exploration wells in their career. 417 00:19:27,516 --> 00:19:27,836 Speaker 2: Wow. 418 00:19:27,876 --> 00:19:29,836 Speaker 1: And so you've very quickly run out of just the 419 00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:32,516 Speaker 1: people power there. But the other aspect of it is 420 00:19:32,556 --> 00:19:35,956 Speaker 1: it's inconsistent and it inherently has human biases, right, we 421 00:19:35,996 --> 00:19:38,916 Speaker 1: can't avoid that, And so I almost always will recommend 422 00:19:38,956 --> 00:19:41,156 Speaker 1: certain data types just because I love working with those 423 00:19:41,196 --> 00:19:42,716 Speaker 1: data I think they're important. 424 00:19:42,716 --> 00:19:44,476 Speaker 2: But there's just one rock. You're like, oh, that's my 425 00:19:44,516 --> 00:19:46,036 Speaker 2: favorite rock. We've got a drill here. 426 00:19:46,156 --> 00:19:48,276 Speaker 1: That's true, And with data types, I have my favorite 427 00:19:48,316 --> 00:19:50,436 Speaker 1: data types. And some of that bias comes from my 428 00:19:50,476 --> 00:19:52,676 Speaker 1: past experience, the projects I've worked on, the sites I've 429 00:19:52,676 --> 00:19:54,596 Speaker 1: looked at, and how those were helpful or not there. 430 00:19:54,836 --> 00:19:56,516 Speaker 1: But not all sites are the same, and the more 431 00:19:56,556 --> 00:19:58,436 Speaker 1: you see, the more that debt shapes. And that's where 432 00:19:58,836 --> 00:20:02,356 Speaker 1: AI in these advanced forms of probabilistic modeling allow us 433 00:20:02,356 --> 00:20:05,196 Speaker 1: to think much bigger picture and incorporate all of the 434 00:20:05,236 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 1: known sites and even the unknown physical possibilities into those decisions. 435 00:20:10,276 --> 00:20:14,596 Speaker 2: And so, in basic terms, when you set up a 436 00:20:14,676 --> 00:20:16,916 Speaker 2: geothermal power plant, how does it work? What's going on? 437 00:20:17,356 --> 00:20:20,196 Speaker 1: In very basic terms, we're drilling wells underground, just like 438 00:20:20,236 --> 00:20:22,956 Speaker 1: you might do for water or oil and gas, but 439 00:20:22,996 --> 00:20:26,236 Speaker 1: we're tapping into pockets of very hot water. And as 440 00:20:26,276 --> 00:20:28,916 Speaker 1: you bring that to the surface, we can extract the 441 00:20:28,956 --> 00:20:31,436 Speaker 1: heat from that water and put it into a closed 442 00:20:31,436 --> 00:20:34,676 Speaker 1: turbine system that's going to flash to steam drive a turbine, 443 00:20:35,236 --> 00:20:37,236 Speaker 1: and then that turbine will drive a generator that produces 444 00:20:37,276 --> 00:20:40,956 Speaker 1: electricity for the grid. And as our hot water cools 445 00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:43,716 Speaker 1: because we're extracting the heat, we then reinject that cooled 446 00:20:43,756 --> 00:20:46,556 Speaker 1: water back into the system where it has time to 447 00:20:46,716 --> 00:20:49,516 Speaker 1: reheat before coming back up your production. Well, so these 448 00:20:49,556 --> 00:20:54,036 Speaker 1: are really closed loops of circulating water underground to extract heat, 449 00:20:54,396 --> 00:20:57,316 Speaker 1: and then a closed loop where you're running the turbine system. 450 00:20:57,156 --> 00:20:59,036 Speaker 2: I can of run forever. Dumb question. 451 00:20:59,996 --> 00:21:03,476 Speaker 1: Every one of our utility scale operating geothermal fields is 452 00:21:03,516 --> 00:21:05,836 Speaker 1: still operating today, including the ones that aree hundred years old. 453 00:21:05,956 --> 00:21:07,476 Speaker 2: Are they colder than when they started? 454 00:21:07,756 --> 00:21:09,076 Speaker 1: Many of them are colder, but many of them have 455 00:21:09,396 --> 00:21:13,276 Speaker 1: actually stayed relatively stable and consistent, especially the deeper fields, 456 00:21:13,756 --> 00:21:15,956 Speaker 1: and a few have increased in temperature, so you have 457 00:21:16,436 --> 00:21:19,876 Speaker 1: the ability to think of these resources as potentially generational 458 00:21:19,916 --> 00:21:22,836 Speaker 1: resources that could last hundreds of years, maybe even thousands, 459 00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:27,436 Speaker 1: if sustained and managed properly, because it is actually being 460 00:21:27,476 --> 00:21:30,836 Speaker 1: recharged over time. The Earth is creating new heat through 461 00:21:30,916 --> 00:21:33,796 Speaker 1: radioactive decay and other processes, and that heat is part 462 00:21:33,836 --> 00:21:36,276 Speaker 1: of what really makes geothermal renewable resource. 463 00:21:37,076 --> 00:21:38,076 Speaker 2: So where are you now? 464 00:21:38,356 --> 00:21:40,756 Speaker 1: So let's see. We started the company about five just 465 00:21:40,796 --> 00:21:43,396 Speaker 1: over five years ago, raised our first venture capital just 466 00:21:43,436 --> 00:21:45,796 Speaker 1: over four years ago, and at the time it was 467 00:21:45,836 --> 00:21:47,716 Speaker 1: really just two of us, my co founder and I 468 00:21:47,876 --> 00:21:50,196 Speaker 1: thinking about this big opportunity, this big need, and the 469 00:21:50,236 --> 00:21:52,676 Speaker 1: technologies that we were seeing and helping develop in the 470 00:21:52,716 --> 00:21:56,756 Speaker 1: lab and seeing a pathway to commercialize them. Now and 471 00:21:56,916 --> 00:22:00,596 Speaker 1: just that time, we've raised sixty five million inequities, and 472 00:22:01,076 --> 00:22:05,476 Speaker 1: we've also recently applied our technology to even known operating 473 00:22:05,516 --> 00:22:09,716 Speaker 1: fields that had been underappreciated and underutilized and have since 474 00:22:09,796 --> 00:22:12,276 Speaker 1: become the eighth largest producer of gethermal power in the nation. 475 00:22:13,276 --> 00:22:15,916 Speaker 2: Is this the new Mexico well or field? 476 00:22:16,196 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 1: That's exactly right? 477 00:22:17,436 --> 00:22:19,476 Speaker 2: Tell me that story. There was a well sort of 478 00:22:20,316 --> 00:22:23,636 Speaker 2: neglected on the Wayne site in New Mexico that you 479 00:22:23,756 --> 00:22:25,076 Speaker 2: got involved in what happened there. 480 00:22:25,836 --> 00:22:29,436 Speaker 1: It's a site that had been discovered by accident and 481 00:22:29,756 --> 00:22:31,636 Speaker 1: it was just in the middle of a desert valley 482 00:22:32,036 --> 00:22:34,996 Speaker 1: where a rancher had come out and drilled a water 483 00:22:35,036 --> 00:22:39,516 Speaker 1: well and it just about one hundred feet hit steam. 484 00:22:39,636 --> 00:22:41,996 Speaker 1: And that was a long time ago, and so I'd 485 00:22:42,036 --> 00:22:44,876 Speaker 1: been known about for a while and developers came in 486 00:22:44,916 --> 00:22:48,196 Speaker 1: and developed it for various purposes, including for electricity, about 487 00:22:48,196 --> 00:22:51,396 Speaker 1: ten fifteen years ago. But they never went deeper than 488 00:22:51,396 --> 00:22:54,116 Speaker 1: that zone. They really kind of drilled into the shallow 489 00:22:54,156 --> 00:22:56,956 Speaker 1: top of the system and it was hard to go 490 00:22:57,036 --> 00:22:59,356 Speaker 1: much deeper. They drilled some dry wells in a few places, 491 00:22:59,396 --> 00:23:01,036 Speaker 1: and it really just left them saying, Okay, let's just 492 00:23:01,076 --> 00:23:03,996 Speaker 1: stay here with what we know. And the problem with 493 00:23:04,036 --> 00:23:06,196 Speaker 1: that is when you're producing from the very tops of 494 00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:10,356 Speaker 1: these systems, you can run into issues temperature decline or 495 00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:12,876 Speaker 1: maybe not in a pressure support. And they actually ran 496 00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:14,836 Speaker 1: into a lot of those issues. So by the time 497 00:23:14,876 --> 00:23:18,276 Speaker 1: we came and acquired the field last year, it was 498 00:23:18,316 --> 00:23:21,516 Speaker 1: now significantly underperforming and was at serious risk of being 499 00:23:21,556 --> 00:23:23,636 Speaker 1: shut down within the coming months. 500 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:26,556 Speaker 2: So you buy this little power plant. It's a little 501 00:23:26,556 --> 00:23:29,196 Speaker 2: power plant right in New Mexico, and what do you do? 502 00:23:29,356 --> 00:23:30,236 Speaker 2: What happens? 503 00:23:30,756 --> 00:23:33,316 Speaker 1: So we enter in and within a few months, through 504 00:23:33,396 --> 00:23:35,916 Speaker 1: a transition agreement, we take over full operations of the 505 00:23:35,916 --> 00:23:40,396 Speaker 1: facility and we start right away investing in. We're going 506 00:23:40,396 --> 00:23:41,756 Speaker 1: to drill this new well, and we're going to do 507 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:44,316 Speaker 1: some upgrades and improvements to the facility along the way, 508 00:23:44,956 --> 00:23:48,276 Speaker 1: But most importantly, we need a new source of steam. 509 00:23:48,636 --> 00:23:51,356 Speaker 1: And with our modeling, we'd identified as zone at depth 510 00:23:51,396 --> 00:23:53,636 Speaker 1: that the data was helping confirm and point to us, 511 00:23:54,396 --> 00:23:58,956 Speaker 1: and we engineered, permitted, and then ended up drilling and 512 00:23:58,996 --> 00:24:01,676 Speaker 1: constructing a new well using all the latest oil and 513 00:24:01,716 --> 00:24:06,036 Speaker 1: gas drilling technologies, so PDC bits, directional drilling assemblies, mud motors, 514 00:24:06,116 --> 00:24:08,356 Speaker 1: and we drilled directionally down to this zone and we 515 00:24:08,396 --> 00:24:12,196 Speaker 1: go more than four times deeper than the prior production zone. 516 00:24:12,236 --> 00:24:14,436 Speaker 1: And along the way, you don't know if you're going 517 00:24:14,476 --> 00:24:16,436 Speaker 1: to hit it yet because these can be pretty narrow, 518 00:24:16,516 --> 00:24:17,516 Speaker 1: isolated pockets. 519 00:24:17,636 --> 00:24:20,116 Speaker 2: This is good, this is good drama. You're spending a 520 00:24:20,116 --> 00:24:21,836 Speaker 2: lot of money, presumably. 521 00:24:21,316 --> 00:24:23,396 Speaker 1: Spending a lot of money. Your investors are calling you, 522 00:24:23,396 --> 00:24:25,916 Speaker 1: You know, how's it going? We know yet even the 523 00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:27,956 Speaker 1: plant staff are asking that, right because this is this 524 00:24:28,036 --> 00:24:30,076 Speaker 1: is serious and very personal to them. 525 00:24:30,396 --> 00:24:32,276 Speaker 2: How long does it take this drilling process? 526 00:24:32,356 --> 00:24:34,276 Speaker 1: So this first we all took over thirty days to drill. 527 00:24:34,876 --> 00:24:36,916 Speaker 1: We have over thirty people on site day and night 528 00:24:37,076 --> 00:24:38,076 Speaker 1: through that entire time. 529 00:24:38,396 --> 00:24:41,876 Speaker 2: And how are you getting information? Like are you is 530 00:24:41,876 --> 00:24:44,236 Speaker 2: there some dashboard you look at it is somebody calling you. 531 00:24:44,636 --> 00:24:46,636 Speaker 1: Combination of all the above and then also just time 532 00:24:46,636 --> 00:24:47,836 Speaker 1: on the ground, you're. 533 00:24:47,716 --> 00:24:50,716 Speaker 2: Just standing there looking down the hole. You can't say anything. 534 00:24:50,956 --> 00:24:53,356 Speaker 1: But modern oil and gas drilling really is pretty incredible 535 00:24:53,356 --> 00:24:55,196 Speaker 1: with the technology that's been developed and applied to it, 536 00:24:55,196 --> 00:24:57,076 Speaker 1: and so you're getting real time data as you go, 537 00:24:57,156 --> 00:24:59,916 Speaker 1: all put into modern software tools to watch that. You 538 00:24:59,956 --> 00:25:02,436 Speaker 1: start getting early indications as your drill bit starts hitting 539 00:25:02,436 --> 00:25:04,996 Speaker 1: these zones, you start seeing evidence of fractures or you know, 540 00:25:05,196 --> 00:25:08,316 Speaker 1: possible reservoirs, but you don't actually know if you've hit 541 00:25:08,356 --> 00:25:10,636 Speaker 1: what you need to repower the facility to really have 542 00:25:10,636 --> 00:25:13,636 Speaker 1: a success until you test it with a flow test. 543 00:25:14,076 --> 00:25:15,876 Speaker 1: And so with that you're actually going to kick off 544 00:25:15,876 --> 00:25:18,356 Speaker 1: the well, let steam come out, flow it into a 545 00:25:18,356 --> 00:25:20,636 Speaker 1: separator and measure the flow rate and the temperature over 546 00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:23,876 Speaker 1: a period of time, and that we were on the 547 00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:26,876 Speaker 1: ground floor. You're standing around, it's you know, high stakes, 548 00:25:27,476 --> 00:25:32,036 Speaker 1: I nervousness, and you just you can see and feel 549 00:25:32,036 --> 00:25:34,396 Speaker 1: this energy coming out of the well and you start 550 00:25:34,596 --> 00:25:37,476 Speaker 1: seeing the readings the temperature, the flow rate, and at 551 00:25:37,476 --> 00:25:40,196 Speaker 1: a certain point in that process, we all looked at 552 00:25:40,236 --> 00:25:42,556 Speaker 1: each other knew that it had hit and that feeling 553 00:25:42,676 --> 00:25:45,716 Speaker 1: is incredible, and yes, that was a We went from 554 00:25:46,076 --> 00:25:48,276 Speaker 1: we have no idea to we know, this is it 555 00:25:48,436 --> 00:25:49,916 Speaker 1: and there might be a lot more down there. 556 00:25:50,436 --> 00:25:54,396 Speaker 2: What happened at that moment when it was clear that it. 557 00:25:53,756 --> 00:26:00,196 Speaker 1: Worked, just massive size of relief and excitement, not just 558 00:26:00,236 --> 00:26:00,676 Speaker 1: that I don't. 559 00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:02,556 Speaker 2: Know if you jump in the air, like lie down 560 00:26:02,636 --> 00:26:02,956 Speaker 2: on the. 561 00:26:02,916 --> 00:26:06,156 Speaker 1: Ground, that both of those definitely happened. Some of us jump, 562 00:26:06,196 --> 00:26:08,676 Speaker 1: some of us lie down, just kind of collapsed. A 563 00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:10,876 Speaker 1: lot of enter and work over the past month. But 564 00:26:10,956 --> 00:26:12,596 Speaker 1: even more exciting, I think it was not just that 565 00:26:12,636 --> 00:26:14,476 Speaker 1: this plant was going to be recovered, that this plant 566 00:26:14,516 --> 00:26:16,716 Speaker 1: was going to have multiples to orders of magnitude more 567 00:26:16,796 --> 00:26:19,836 Speaker 1: resource potential ahead of it, but that the process we 568 00:26:19,876 --> 00:26:23,436 Speaker 1: applied was systematic. Right, this is an approach that we 569 00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:26,476 Speaker 1: could apply to other fields. It was repeatable, it was scalable, 570 00:26:26,796 --> 00:26:28,756 Speaker 1: and so for us it was the two pieces of 571 00:26:28,756 --> 00:26:32,396 Speaker 1: the puzzle. Can you find more resources orders of magnitude 572 00:26:32,436 --> 00:26:34,836 Speaker 1: more than the industry had found historically, and can you 573 00:26:34,836 --> 00:26:37,756 Speaker 1: go deeper and find more resource within each of those resources, 574 00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:40,436 Speaker 1: And so thinking about what that means about the potential 575 00:26:40,476 --> 00:26:43,756 Speaker 1: size and scale of this opportunity, I think was really 576 00:26:43,796 --> 00:26:44,716 Speaker 1: the most exciting part. 577 00:26:48,716 --> 00:27:01,596 Speaker 5: We'll be back in just a minute. What do you 578 00:27:01,596 --> 00:27:02,796 Speaker 5: have cooking immediately? 579 00:27:02,836 --> 00:27:03,716 Speaker 2: What are you working on now? 580 00:27:04,036 --> 00:27:06,636 Speaker 1: We are really ramping up the deployment of these technologies 581 00:27:06,636 --> 00:27:09,396 Speaker 1: at both discovery and de risking. And the best way 582 00:27:09,436 --> 00:27:12,996 Speaker 1: to show this repeatability to really financial sectors that have 583 00:27:13,076 --> 00:27:16,316 Speaker 1: become wary and nervous of geothermal investment is to show 584 00:27:16,356 --> 00:27:18,196 Speaker 1: not just the size and scale, but to show real 585 00:27:18,196 --> 00:27:20,996 Speaker 1: proof cases. So this example in New Mexico, I think 586 00:27:21,076 --> 00:27:22,916 Speaker 1: is a great example of that. Look, we can come 587 00:27:22,916 --> 00:27:26,276 Speaker 1: in and do this work, but now moving towards greenfield 588 00:27:26,316 --> 00:27:29,956 Speaker 1: development and bringing on multiple new projects, developing them even 589 00:27:29,996 --> 00:27:33,636 Speaker 1: in parallel, and showing that scalability and repeatability, we think 590 00:27:33,716 --> 00:27:35,476 Speaker 1: is a critical next step for the industry to re 591 00:27:35,556 --> 00:27:38,516 Speaker 1: earn that trust from financial markets to come in and 592 00:27:38,556 --> 00:27:39,116 Speaker 1: underwrite these. 593 00:27:39,236 --> 00:27:41,356 Speaker 2: Sure, you got to just go find some bare piece 594 00:27:41,396 --> 00:27:44,316 Speaker 2: of earth and build an economic geothermal power plant there. 595 00:27:44,316 --> 00:27:45,236 Speaker 2: I mean, that's the broad. 596 00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:46,236 Speaker 1: Step, and that's what we're doing next. 597 00:27:46,556 --> 00:27:49,556 Speaker 2: Specifically, you got one, you got financing, like where are you? 598 00:27:49,996 --> 00:27:51,916 Speaker 1: So we have the financing to start the development and 599 00:27:51,916 --> 00:27:53,676 Speaker 1: we've done a lot of that development work already, a 600 00:27:53,756 --> 00:27:57,356 Speaker 1: number of projects in the interconnection cueues with resources already 601 00:27:57,356 --> 00:27:59,996 Speaker 1: identified that have that potential, and so really the next 602 00:28:00,036 --> 00:28:02,516 Speaker 1: stage is taking that through the rest of the development 603 00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:05,596 Speaker 1: process to get it ready for bankable project finance. 604 00:28:06,356 --> 00:28:09,916 Speaker 2: Is there like a rate limiting step? Is there one 605 00:28:09,916 --> 00:28:12,196 Speaker 2: that's almost there? Is there something you got to figure out? 606 00:28:12,876 --> 00:28:15,396 Speaker 1: The rate limiting step now in terms of power development 607 00:28:15,436 --> 00:28:19,716 Speaker 1: is really interconnection and permitting. Historically these are very slow, but. 608 00:28:19,716 --> 00:28:21,956 Speaker 2: That's just anything you're going to build has that problem. 609 00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:24,836 Speaker 2: That's not a geothermal problem. That's just the grid is 610 00:28:24,876 --> 00:28:28,316 Speaker 2: a pain in the ass problem. I guess it's unsurprising, 611 00:28:28,396 --> 00:28:31,116 Speaker 2: but like it's uninteresting and it makes me sad about 612 00:28:31,156 --> 00:28:31,596 Speaker 2: the world. 613 00:28:32,236 --> 00:28:34,276 Speaker 1: But there's been progress. I mean really there is now 614 00:28:34,316 --> 00:28:36,276 Speaker 1: for the first time I think real by partisan support 615 00:28:36,356 --> 00:28:40,036 Speaker 1: for accelerating permitting of energy projects and accelerating how we 616 00:28:40,076 --> 00:28:41,796 Speaker 1: can bring these projects onto the grid or in some 617 00:28:41,836 --> 00:28:45,076 Speaker 1: cases even off the grid. And as you mentioned, I 618 00:28:45,116 --> 00:28:47,796 Speaker 1: think we're in this just kind of totally different market 619 00:28:47,916 --> 00:28:49,796 Speaker 1: environment than even when we started the company just a 620 00:28:49,796 --> 00:28:53,516 Speaker 1: few years ago, where look, for the last twenty five years, 621 00:28:53,636 --> 00:28:56,876 Speaker 1: energy demand growth has been basically flat, and so when 622 00:28:56,916 --> 00:28:59,716 Speaker 1: you were thinking about building renewable energy projects like geothermal, 623 00:28:59,996 --> 00:29:02,356 Speaker 1: you were almost always looking at turning something else off. 624 00:29:02,756 --> 00:29:04,076 Speaker 2: It was zero sum zerio. 625 00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:05,836 Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to turn off that net gas facility 626 00:29:05,836 --> 00:29:07,756 Speaker 1: and turn on these renewables. Right now, we're in an 627 00:29:07,836 --> 00:29:10,756 Speaker 1: environment where we're probably gonna have to rebuild the entire 628 00:29:10,756 --> 00:29:13,236 Speaker 1: amount of capacity another time over. 629 00:29:13,596 --> 00:29:16,556 Speaker 2: Right, there's going to I mean, if scaling with AI continues, 630 00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:18,516 Speaker 2: there's going to be a tremendous amount of demand for 631 00:29:18,636 --> 00:29:19,676 Speaker 2: electric power. 632 00:29:19,516 --> 00:29:21,676 Speaker 1: That's right. And so from a carbon emissions point of view, 633 00:29:21,756 --> 00:29:24,076 Speaker 1: the short term downside is that you have a lot 634 00:29:24,076 --> 00:29:27,476 Speaker 1: more natural gas being built than anybody expected. But one 635 00:29:27,516 --> 00:29:29,556 Speaker 1: of the kind of unique upsides is that you now 636 00:29:29,596 --> 00:29:32,676 Speaker 1: have demand for geothermal and even nuclear and long duration shorts, 637 00:29:32,716 --> 00:29:36,396 Speaker 1: these other technologies that is no longer well you're competing 638 00:29:36,396 --> 00:29:38,596 Speaker 1: against the marginal cost of something else that's already built. 639 00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:41,796 Speaker 1: It's you're competing with new build natural gas and coal. 640 00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:43,876 Speaker 2: Which is more expensive. That's good for you. 641 00:29:43,956 --> 00:29:46,076 Speaker 1: That's good for us. At that point, we actually compete 642 00:29:46,156 --> 00:29:48,716 Speaker 1: quite well today and then have a pathway to coming 643 00:29:48,756 --> 00:29:50,796 Speaker 1: down the cost curve and the learnings curves that will 644 00:29:50,796 --> 00:29:53,316 Speaker 1: put geothermal into a much more competitive position even in 645 00:29:53,396 --> 00:29:54,036 Speaker 1: just a few years. 646 00:29:54,916 --> 00:29:58,196 Speaker 2: If you don't dig any dry wells, then it's a 647 00:29:58,196 --> 00:30:01,116 Speaker 2: great business, right. It seems like that's the key is 648 00:30:01,556 --> 00:30:06,756 Speaker 2: don't miss that's right. So let's talk about politics for 649 00:30:07,396 --> 00:30:12,476 Speaker 2: ninety seconds. It's an interesting moment politically for geothermal energy. Right, 650 00:30:12,516 --> 00:30:15,076 Speaker 2: it's a bad moment politically, I'll say it. You don't 651 00:30:15,076 --> 00:30:17,876 Speaker 2: have to say it for solar power and for electric 652 00:30:17,956 --> 00:30:21,236 Speaker 2: vehicles and for wind power for sure, But it seems 653 00:30:21,356 --> 00:30:25,356 Speaker 2: not bad for geothermal energy, which is maybe a pleasant surprise, 654 00:30:25,436 --> 00:30:27,796 Speaker 2: I don't know. Tell me about what's happening politically, like 655 00:30:27,836 --> 00:30:30,436 Speaker 2: with the federal government and geothermal power right now. 656 00:30:30,796 --> 00:30:32,836 Speaker 1: This is where geothermal has been fortunate to be in 657 00:30:32,876 --> 00:30:35,996 Speaker 1: this very bipartisan position. On one hand, we are a 658 00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:40,756 Speaker 1: small footprint, you know, small materials impact, zero emission technology, 659 00:30:41,316 --> 00:30:43,756 Speaker 1: which obviously the left loves right. That fits very much 660 00:30:43,756 --> 00:30:45,916 Speaker 1: into how do we decarnaize the grid and achieve these goals? 661 00:30:46,436 --> 00:30:49,396 Speaker 1: Whereas it also is an energy industry that can rely 662 00:30:49,476 --> 00:30:52,836 Speaker 1: on our existing American workforce. You can transition them from 663 00:30:52,836 --> 00:30:54,756 Speaker 1: oil and gas. The technology is ready to go. You're 664 00:30:54,756 --> 00:30:56,756 Speaker 1: not rebuilding a workforce from scratch like you have to 665 00:30:56,756 --> 00:30:57,516 Speaker 1: do for offshore wind. 666 00:30:57,556 --> 00:31:00,236 Speaker 2: Or it's appealing because it looks and feels like oil 667 00:31:00,276 --> 00:31:00,716 Speaker 2: and gas. 668 00:31:00,756 --> 00:31:03,436 Speaker 1: It's drill, baby, drill here in America on American soil. 669 00:31:03,476 --> 00:31:04,836 Speaker 1: So it has all of the things that the right 670 00:31:04,836 --> 00:31:07,476 Speaker 1: and the left can actually come together on and see, oh, 671 00:31:07,516 --> 00:31:09,676 Speaker 1: this actually benefits all of our shared objectives. 672 00:31:10,156 --> 00:31:12,676 Speaker 2: And in fact, in the budget bill that just passed, 673 00:31:13,196 --> 00:31:17,956 Speaker 2: the geothermal basically subsidies survived, right, whereas other subsidies for 674 00:31:18,036 --> 00:31:21,396 Speaker 2: other kinds of carbon free electricity did not. 675 00:31:21,796 --> 00:31:22,236 Speaker 1: That's right. 676 00:31:22,556 --> 00:31:24,836 Speaker 2: What are you worried about? Like, what do you think 677 00:31:25,436 --> 00:31:26,156 Speaker 2: might go wrong? 678 00:31:27,676 --> 00:31:29,716 Speaker 1: So we worry a little bit about the small n 679 00:31:29,876 --> 00:31:33,596 Speaker 1: when you're dealing with probabilities that have these long tail distributions. 680 00:31:32,876 --> 00:31:35,676 Speaker 2: Basically bad luck. There's the eighty percent chance the thing 681 00:31:35,716 --> 00:31:38,036 Speaker 2: will work, and you hit the twenty percent. 682 00:31:37,956 --> 00:31:40,876 Speaker 1: Loser exactly and so what happens if you have all 683 00:31:40,916 --> 00:31:43,036 Speaker 1: of the pieces in place, things should have worked, You've 684 00:31:43,036 --> 00:31:46,876 Speaker 1: built this technology, and those first ten projects or five 685 00:31:46,916 --> 00:31:48,956 Speaker 1: projects just happen to fall on the low end of 686 00:31:48,956 --> 00:31:50,916 Speaker 1: that distribution. In the markets are like, Okay, you tried, 687 00:31:50,956 --> 00:31:51,356 Speaker 1: We're done. 688 00:31:51,396 --> 00:31:52,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, what a bummer. 689 00:31:53,676 --> 00:31:55,756 Speaker 1: And so that's true in what we're doing. It's also 690 00:31:55,756 --> 00:31:57,796 Speaker 1: true in what the broader geothermal industry is doing. So 691 00:31:57,796 --> 00:32:00,556 Speaker 1: I mentioned what really sets Sandscar part is this ability 692 00:32:00,596 --> 00:32:04,556 Speaker 1: to unlock conventional geothermal resources that don't require fracking or stimulation. 693 00:32:04,716 --> 00:32:07,836 Speaker 1: These are just naturally occurring pockets that doesn't require any 694 00:32:07,836 --> 00:32:10,436 Speaker 1: water consumption, that they're low and they're out there. 695 00:32:10,916 --> 00:32:14,276 Speaker 2: One of the other geothermal founders I talked to, I 696 00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:18,916 Speaker 2: think it was Carlos Arake at Quays said that for him, 697 00:32:19,316 --> 00:32:23,236 Speaker 2: the measure of success for the field is when big 698 00:32:23,236 --> 00:32:27,436 Speaker 2: oil and gas companies get into the geothermal business, because 699 00:32:27,436 --> 00:32:30,836 Speaker 2: they are the ones with the capital and the staff 700 00:32:30,836 --> 00:32:32,436 Speaker 2: and the know how who if they want to do it, 701 00:32:32,476 --> 00:32:37,076 Speaker 2: they could do it at giant scale now essentially, and 702 00:32:37,116 --> 00:32:39,756 Speaker 2: in his worldview, it's like that's what we need, that's 703 00:32:39,756 --> 00:32:43,076 Speaker 2: how you get a ton of geothermal energy really fast. 704 00:32:44,276 --> 00:32:45,116 Speaker 2: What do you think of that. 705 00:32:46,196 --> 00:32:48,836 Speaker 1: I think I agree with it other than the need 706 00:32:49,316 --> 00:32:51,876 Speaker 1: aspect of Okay, like I do agree if they entered in, 707 00:32:52,236 --> 00:32:55,316 Speaker 1: it would accelerate things significantly. Nobody's better positioned than them 708 00:32:55,476 --> 00:32:57,636 Speaker 1: to deploy this type of technology, this type of workforce, 709 00:32:57,636 --> 00:33:00,396 Speaker 1: on these types of resources deals, subservice uncertainty, and top 710 00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:03,156 Speaker 1: side infrastructure together at scale. 711 00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:06,676 Speaker 2: Right, Like, they're so big, they're really big companies all 712 00:33:06,716 --> 00:33:07,476 Speaker 2: around the world. 713 00:33:08,036 --> 00:33:09,916 Speaker 1: In that is part of the problem. They are so 714 00:33:10,076 --> 00:33:12,476 Speaker 1: big all around the world, and they have a clear, 715 00:33:12,556 --> 00:33:15,196 Speaker 1: proven business model, and diversifying and changing out of that 716 00:33:15,316 --> 00:33:17,476 Speaker 1: has been a real challenge and maintaining focus on any 717 00:33:17,556 --> 00:33:21,196 Speaker 1: new business areas. And so despite the progress that all 718 00:33:21,196 --> 00:33:23,636 Speaker 1: of these startups have demonstrated, you're still seeing very little 719 00:33:23,716 --> 00:33:25,876 Speaker 1: actual kind of in the groundproof from them or even 720 00:33:25,916 --> 00:33:28,116 Speaker 1: capital entering in. And so I think that's what has 721 00:33:28,116 --> 00:33:29,796 Speaker 1: shifted from you over the last few years as a 722 00:33:29,836 --> 00:33:32,436 Speaker 1: recognition that you know what, we're going to be able 723 00:33:32,476 --> 00:33:35,036 Speaker 1: to do this with or without them, And I hope 724 00:33:35,036 --> 00:33:37,996 Speaker 1: they joined sooner. But we are finding that there are 725 00:33:38,076 --> 00:33:40,836 Speaker 1: capital sources out there, and there are sophisticated groups that 726 00:33:40,956 --> 00:33:45,876 Speaker 1: have subservice understanding that can really accelerate investments into these technologies, 727 00:33:46,396 --> 00:33:49,276 Speaker 1: and so I think there's still a pathway to do 728 00:33:49,316 --> 00:33:50,796 Speaker 1: this on the time skills that we talked about. 729 00:33:53,956 --> 00:33:56,156 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 730 00:34:07,236 --> 00:34:09,676 Speaker 2: Now we're going to do the lightning round. What's your 731 00:34:09,716 --> 00:34:10,396 Speaker 2: favorite rock? 732 00:34:11,596 --> 00:34:15,516 Speaker 1: My favorite rock is an eclogite, which is a rare 733 00:34:15,636 --> 00:34:17,996 Speaker 1: rock that represents rock that was once at the surface 734 00:34:18,036 --> 00:34:21,396 Speaker 1: and has been brought down very deep, sometimes one hundred 735 00:34:21,436 --> 00:34:26,116 Speaker 1: plus miles underground through tectonic activity, where many of the 736 00:34:26,156 --> 00:34:29,356 Speaker 1: minerals and elements have changed shape into things that are 737 00:34:29,356 --> 00:34:31,476 Speaker 1: more stable a high pressure and high temperature, and then 738 00:34:31,516 --> 00:34:33,716 Speaker 1: it was brought back to the surface. And these were 739 00:34:33,716 --> 00:34:36,676 Speaker 1: some of the early points of evidence for plate tectonics 740 00:34:36,676 --> 00:34:37,396 Speaker 1: actually occurring. 741 00:34:38,116 --> 00:34:38,956 Speaker 2: What do they look like? 742 00:34:39,236 --> 00:34:42,516 Speaker 1: They have bright green and red minerals in them, and 743 00:34:42,596 --> 00:34:44,436 Speaker 1: so sometimes they're called a Christmas tree rock. 744 00:34:44,876 --> 00:34:48,756 Speaker 2: What's the most underrated geologic epoch. 745 00:34:48,436 --> 00:34:51,956 Speaker 1: At least for the Western United States really the Tertiary period, 746 00:34:52,316 --> 00:34:55,956 Speaker 1: which is this I think it was twenty to forty 747 00:34:55,996 --> 00:35:00,036 Speaker 1: million years ago where the entire western Us underwinter transformation. 748 00:35:00,116 --> 00:35:02,436 Speaker 1: Rather than the plates starting they'd been colliding for a 749 00:35:02,516 --> 00:35:05,516 Speaker 1: very long time, they actually start polling apart, and it's 750 00:35:05,556 --> 00:35:09,716 Speaker 1: this pulling apart that stretches the Earth's crust and leads 751 00:35:09,756 --> 00:35:12,596 Speaker 1: to the formation of this huge, broad region of high 752 00:35:12,676 --> 00:35:16,596 Speaker 1: elevated temperatures and geothermal activity. That is really what has 753 00:35:16,676 --> 00:35:19,956 Speaker 1: driven all of the activity today for geothermal energy and 754 00:35:20,076 --> 00:35:22,716 Speaker 1: makes this not just the best place in the US 755 00:35:22,756 --> 00:35:25,396 Speaker 1: to develop geothermal but one of the best in the world. 756 00:35:25,716 --> 00:35:28,236 Speaker 1: Almost no other areas had that long history of twenty 757 00:35:28,356 --> 00:35:31,196 Speaker 1: plus million years of stretching and thinning to create that 758 00:35:31,276 --> 00:35:33,196 Speaker 1: much geothermal heat near to the surface. 759 00:35:34,036 --> 00:35:42,276 Speaker 2: Best volcano you want to do, worst volcano, worst volcano, 760 00:35:42,276 --> 00:35:42,996 Speaker 2: I would accept. 761 00:35:43,516 --> 00:35:45,636 Speaker 1: No, they're always the best and the worst, because there's 762 00:35:45,676 --> 00:35:49,676 Speaker 1: this age that comes from the also incredible and so 763 00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:51,676 Speaker 1: actually for me, one of the best volcanoes is this 764 00:35:51,796 --> 00:35:55,276 Speaker 1: volcanic region in kind of central western Japan, few hours 765 00:35:55,316 --> 00:35:58,396 Speaker 1: west of Tokyo, in the heat of Mountains, sometimes called 766 00:35:58,396 --> 00:36:00,356 Speaker 1: the Japanese Alps, and it's an area where you've not 767 00:36:00,356 --> 00:36:03,916 Speaker 1: only had volcanic activity, but the mountains have been uplifting 768 00:36:03,956 --> 00:36:06,796 Speaker 1: so fast and eroding that you've brought some of the 769 00:36:06,796 --> 00:36:08,916 Speaker 1: geothermal heat just right to the surface. And as they 770 00:36:08,956 --> 00:36:11,716 Speaker 1: tunnels into that rock, there's some of the highest geothermal 771 00:36:11,756 --> 00:36:14,476 Speaker 1: gradients anywhere on the planet and really takes a unique 772 00:36:14,516 --> 00:36:18,476 Speaker 1: combination of tectonic plate activity to drive that kind of action. 773 00:36:19,036 --> 00:36:19,756 Speaker 1: Have you been there? 774 00:36:19,956 --> 00:36:20,196 Speaker 2: I have. 775 00:36:20,556 --> 00:36:22,476 Speaker 1: We did a study out there a number of years ago. 776 00:36:22,676 --> 00:36:23,276 Speaker 2: What's it like? 777 00:36:23,636 --> 00:36:26,476 Speaker 1: It's beautiful, you know, sort of has this tropical feel, 778 00:36:26,956 --> 00:36:29,156 Speaker 1: incredible plants. But you're hiking up in the mountains. You 779 00:36:29,156 --> 00:36:30,636 Speaker 1: feel like, if you're here in the US, you'd be 780 00:36:30,676 --> 00:36:32,196 Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere. And all of a sudden 781 00:36:32,236 --> 00:36:34,636 Speaker 1: you look over and there's a nice elderly couple out 782 00:36:34,716 --> 00:36:37,796 Speaker 1: hiking way up this high elevation, just waving to you 783 00:36:37,876 --> 00:36:40,076 Speaker 1: as they go by, And so it's it's both I think, 784 00:36:40,156 --> 00:36:42,716 Speaker 1: beautiful but also appreciated by the people around it. 785 00:36:49,196 --> 00:36:52,636 Speaker 2: Carl Hoyland is the co founder and CEO of Zanscar. 786 00:36:53,196 --> 00:36:56,516 Speaker 2: Please email us at problem at pushkin dot fm. We 787 00:36:56,556 --> 00:37:00,316 Speaker 2: are always looking for new guests for the show. Today's 788 00:37:00,316 --> 00:37:04,116 Speaker 2: show was produced by Trinamnino and Gabriel Hunter Chang. It 789 00:37:04,276 --> 00:37:08,156 Speaker 2: was edited by Alexander Garreton and engineered by Sarah Briguerra. 790 00:37:08,476 --> 00:37:10,516 Speaker 2: I'm Jacob gold Stein and we'll be back next week 791 00:37:10,556 --> 00:37:12,196 Speaker 2: with another episode of What's Your Problem? 792 00:37:19,916 --> 00:37:20,276 Speaker 5: MHM