WEBVTT - Mind Games: an Interview with Zoë Lescaze 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.680 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:09.080 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.119 learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:13.920 production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.840 Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:29.800 my name is Noah. 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:32.760 They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.800 super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.800 argue you are here. That makes this the stuff they 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.159 don't want you to know. Now, we've talked about something 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:48.080 in the past, friends and neighbors, something called n LP, 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.560 short for neuro linguistic programming. This is a group term 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:57.800 for a series of technique strategies, experimental models, all built 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.360 to theoretically help you people reach a variety of what 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:03.960 we'll call improved outcomes. You know, if you have a 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.800 problem speaking in public, maybe NLP can help. It can 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:11.039 help you quit consuming tobacco. It might, as we're going 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.120 to learn, even help you become a sharpshooter. 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.600 Well, recently we've probably heard about NLP in a different 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:21.360 context because as the AI boom, we're amongst it right now, 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:25.240 as it's been growing and generating. We hear natural language 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.440 processing rights to as NLP a lot, which is just 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.959 the way that computers are able to actually use human language, interpret, 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.440 and then basically regurgitate human language. 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:37.960 They do it so well too. 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.960 And that might be an episode for another day, but 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.360 that's an important distinction there, Matt. The parts of NLP 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.480 that we're talking about neural linguistic programming here. They're huge 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:51.760 in the self help industry. They're used by some of 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.440 the most famous life coaches, but as well as some 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:58.480 of the world's most well known celebrities and athletes. They'll 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.120 swear by this, you know what to look for. You 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:06.120 will begin to recognize these tactics or these practices all 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:10.240 over the place. But what is NLP exactly? Can you 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:14.040 really hypnotize yourself into becoming a better person. On the 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:18.440 flip side, what if you could secretly hypnotize people into 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.880 giving you whatever you want? These are headache questions. Luckily 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.239 we are not exploring these alone. We are thrilled, friends 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.160 and neighbors, fellow conspiracy realists to welcome the journalist, the author, 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.239 the podcaster and creator of the hit new podcast Mind 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.560 Games Zoe List. Guys, Zoe, thank you so much for 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:36.560 joining us today. 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:39.160 Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Guys. 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.280 Got to tell you, Zoe, we just finished listening to 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.880 all the episodes, I believe nine episodes of mind Games. Yeah, 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:51.760 there is so much contained within your show that is 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.840 difficult to even know where to start. I was hoping 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:00.160 maybe we could go back to Santa Cruz, California, the 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:06.079 nineteen seventies, let's say, to a time when therapeutic techniques 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.480 were being developed by college students and just we were 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:10.680 getting real weird with it. 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:13.440 Yeah, it was getting pretty weird. That's a great place 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:18.120 to start. That's where neurolinguistic programming originated. And as you say, 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.280 it's a super slippery subject. It means a lot of 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:25.240 different things in different places, in different contacts. So it's 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.360 also where I like to begin to explain it. Basically, 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.560 you have California in the nineteen seventies. Santa Cruz is 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:34.520 just down the road from Big sur where you've got 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:38.000 the headquarters of Esslin and the Human Potential Movement. So 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:40.960 you know, this is a place where people are trying 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:44.600 really novel approaches to become better versions of themselves, to 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:50.840 you know, reenact their births, to primarily scream, ideally to well, 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.600 I don't know. The podcast is not about Esslin but. 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.280 Self actualized perhaps. 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.760 Yeah, I was trying to avoid that traced out there, 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:02.800 and he is so laced. I mean even the name 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.800 right is this really odd putting jargony acronym, which, as 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.520 you say now has another meaning that but yeah, it's 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:15.080 like very alienating in so many ways. But basically, this guy, 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.680 Richard Bandler, is this sort of loose cannon, troubled twenty 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.360 something who's at EC Santa Cruz, specifically at this one 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:27.080 really experimental college within the university, Krisgi College, where it 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:31.400 was sort of conceived as this experimental new school where 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.960 students built their own dorms with lumber. When the school opened, 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.279 teachers that cross legged on top of their desks, barefoot 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.520 in blue jeans, talking about communism. You know, this was 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.039 the vibe. So basically I'm here for yeah, I know, 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.280 find me out right. It actually is very beautiful. I've 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:51.320 been to the campus now and although it's grown a 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.159 lot and changed, it is on this beautiful hill in 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.480 the middle of a redwood forest, so that's sort of 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.000 mist hanging in the branches. There's views of the ocean. 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:04.839 It's very atmospheric, and so Bandler is this sort of 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.800 troubled guy with a checkered past. We can talk about 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.119 his background a little more because it's fascinating, but he's there, 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.120 and he teams up with a linguistics professor, a young 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.839 professor who's in his thirties named John Grinder, and together 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:23.000 they basically start running these experimental therapy sessions on students 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:27.000 on Bandler's peers, and they're bringing in a lot of 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:32.679 different therapeutic modalities Virginia Setyer's Family Systems therapy. They're bringing 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:37.000 in gestalt where you basically yell a lot, among other things. 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:38.880 But you know, there's a lot of LARPing in both 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:42.599 of these therapy models, like you you know, have other 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.000 people pretend to be your family members, for instance, and 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:48.240 then you talk to them. Yes, lots of role play, 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.600 so it's very physical. It's you know, amusing at times, 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.360 but people are having these real breakthroughs, and eventually they 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.360 add hypnosis into the mix, and that really is what 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.800 launches NLP into the world, specifically the corporate world and 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:04.960 some other sectors. But I hope that's a helpful origin 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:07.039 story and we can dig into any parts of that 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:08.000 more detail. 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:11.279 Just for sure, front though, is NLP is not I 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.560 mean it's not the same as run of the mill hypnosis, right, 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.800 and they're related, but there's it's like a plussed. 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:17.919 Up version of hypnosis. 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.320 I'm kind of interested in your thoughts on the connection 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:21.400 between those disciplines. 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.040 Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, there's not really 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.359 a run of the mill hypnosis. It's the thing like 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.359 hypnosis is probably the only form of therapy that you know, 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:35.000 can be used in these really rigorous, medically backed contexts 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:38.400 like smoking, cessation, pain relief, et cetera. But also sell 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:42.320 out stadiums in Las Vegas. I mean we've all seen people, 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.120 you know, quacking like a duck on stage, or you know, 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.680 giant dudes being made to imagine they're delicate ballerinas, all 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.440 of this sort of you know, I think very like 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:59.640 BDSMI humiliation based stage stage hypnosis. So you know there's 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.599 hip Hiosis has also been used for forensic purposes. I 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:06.839 mean a bunch of states have outlawed evidence collection from 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:10.800 witnesses or people who have been put into hypnotic states. 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:13.120 That's kind of a no, no, frowned upon. 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:14.280 You know. 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.360 Amazingly, it took a while, but you know, so it's 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:19.400 existed in all these places. But yeah, it's you know, 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:22.800 regarding the relationship between NLP and hypnosis, I would say 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:28.400 NLP is using hypnosis in various ways among other techniques 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.320 borrowed from these other therapeutic models. So it's one of 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:34.880 many things in this grab bag, but it's probably the 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.040 most dominant factor within NLP. 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.120 There we go, and so I've got a couple questions 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:44.840 here to step back. For anybody who is unfamiliar, My 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:50.000 games is hosted with your collaborator and close friend, Alice Hines, 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:54.480 and in the in the beginning of this journey, you 0:07:55.080 --> 0:08:00.000 all describe a pretty interesting origin story of your own partnership. 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.320 Could you tell us a little bit about how you 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:07.120 guys met and then how you became interested in in 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:11.480 LP and bonus points for anyone who doesn't know, could 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:12.520 you describe an LP. 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.680 Al Science is one of my best friends, and we 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:20.720 met about ten years ago at a sound meditation in 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:24.480 New Jersey which involves sleeping over at this house near 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:30.440 the water and basically getting gongs and rainsticks and chimes 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:34.080 played over us and a group of other people. 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:37.319 Sound bad so much a sound bath, it was. 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:42.680 Like a twelve hour sound bath, so it was pretty transformative. 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:46.240 Alice came to that event dating someone she's been with 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:50.000 for five years, and by the end of her astral journeys, 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:53.920 induced by the experience, she was no longer dating that person, 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:57.720 at least meant to me. She was still dating him. Yeah, 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:59.720 she had to fill him in on these new developments. 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.160 But it was there that we met that we found 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.240 out we had a ton in common. We're both journalists, 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:08.040 were both reporters. I think we're both interested in these 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:12.560 kind of subcultures and niche aspects of culture that kind 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.520 of fly under the radar but actually really shape how 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.439 we think and what we believe as a society, and 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.880 NLP is definitely one of those things. We became interested 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:25.720 in hypnosis kind of generally. Alice had stumbled across NLP 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:28.400 in her reporting on the Twin Flames Universe cult for 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.400 Vanity Fair. She did a great piece for them that 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:35.200 then became a documentary which I recommend everyone goes and watches. 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:39.600 But basically she'd encountered NLP and a cult context. I 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.840 encountered it through researching hypnosis and figuring out which aspect 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.200 of it we should dig into. Like I was saying, 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.760 there's a ton of different forms of hypnosis. Well, unsurprisingly, 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:52.440 we settled on the one that is popular with cults, 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.559 the one whose founder stood trial for murdering a woman 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.120 in the nineteen eighties. That woman happened to be a 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:02.400 sex worker and his kokiine dealer's girlfriend. And I just 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:06.320 became fascinated by Richard Bandler, by this guy who has this, 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.880 you know, has this sort of like sordid criminal record, 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:12.240 but at the same time is selling his wares to 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:16.720 the US military. NLP was widely used by government spies, 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:20.400 by army training dudes, So we can get into that. 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:25.040 But just like what that bizarre Nick felt Worth exploring 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:27.440 an answer to your third question, can I describe NLP? 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:32.080 I would describe NLP as a as a rogue form 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:36.880 of hypnotherapy that took over the world. That's my one 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:37.880 life to. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.400 But that's a great place to start, for sure. 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:44.760 So the ubiquity is part of the fascination for you, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.640 for sure, Alice, could you tell us now that we 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.640 have that understanding, that's the best definition I've heard rogue hypnotherapy. 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.960 What makes it as a concept so controversial in certain 0:10:58.000 --> 0:10:59.000 academic circles. 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.160 Yeah, I mean it's been widely described as a pseudoscience. 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:06.120 I actually went to this NLP event, the NLP Leadership Summit, 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:08.640 a few years ago, and all the NLP trainers there 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:10.160 were sort of all in a twitter about how the 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.959 first line about NLP on Wikipedia is that NLP is 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.480 the pseudoscience. I mean, this is just the way people 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.920 generally perceive it. That has a lot to do with 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.600 the founders antipathy for traditional therapy, even though they were 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:27.720 borrowing from some of you know, these pioneering psychiatrists like Setier, 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.439 like Milton Erics and the hypnotherapists, they had a lot 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:32.920 of contempt for most therapists. They thought it was a 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.040 total ripoff that you would spend years and years and 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.839 years on your therapist couch getting to the bottom of 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.920 your problems when you could just fix them instantly. That 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.280 was what they were trying to do, and that basically 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:46.640 became the selling point for NLP. You know, you don't 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:48.720 have to spend thousands of dollars, you can just show 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.840 up to an NLP session and boom your curt So 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:56.720 they never were interested in putting NLP through a rigorous, 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.640 peer reviewed scientific process. Some people have tried to do that, 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.440 but Bandler and grind are the two founders. They were 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:05.840 always pretty contemptuous of that, and they were just like, 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.120 onto the next thing. If it works, it works, you know, 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.079 and jokes on you nerds if you want to dig 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:13.679 into the like nitty gritty details and do these lame experiments. 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:17.400 There's something so thoroughly American too about that idea of 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:22.800 no deferred gratitude, get me my results instantly. I have 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:27.000 to wonder if LP could have reached the success it 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.959 has if it had or the abiquity it has if 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.080 it had not been started in the US. 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.440 That's a great question. I mean, it is very popular 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.760 in countries around the world. Now. At that event I 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.480 mentioned there were NLP trainers from Egypt, from Brazil. 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:42.000 You know. 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.440 It has a huge presence in the UK and Germany, 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.199 also Australia. You know it really its reach is very 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.079 wide at this point. But no, I think it is 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:54.960 a uniquely American story. And really that transformation from those 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.600 early days in Santa Cruz when all these movements, not 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.080 just NLP but like Esselyn, etc. Know, it was all 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:05.000 about like you know, realizing your full potential for good. 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:07.800 You know, if we can make ourselves better individuals, we 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.679 can avoid another Vietnam War by you know, by extension, 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:13.640 we can you know, reform the ways we relate to 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:15.800 each other by figuring out how we relate to ourselves, 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.600 et cetera. And then you go from there to NLP 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.800 at least becoming marketed as this kind of self optimization 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:25.440 technique and like a lot of self help therapies that 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.360 are presented as being very you know, outside the box 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.800 and novel, like they really just sort of reinforce status 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.680 quo values like be a better version of yourself so 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.480 you can like work more, crank out more capital, you know, 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.560 sleep better so you can be more productive. I mean, 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.520 it's it's sort of beenal like ultimately what it what 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:46.640 it ended up hearing. 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.160 World and speaking of American stories, I mean, like the 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.679 idea of being a life coach or a self help guru. 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.760 That's sort of a way of getting around licensure and 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.959 like actually going to school for psychology and studying rigorous 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:02.160 being able to kind of brand yourself. Is this thing, 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.800 this influencer type without actually being you know, a professional. 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.320 Is that part of it? Like, is there any licensure involved. 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:12.640 Is there a governing body? Ben? 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:14.320 That was your question I saw in the outline. It 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:15.920 just really occurred to me. I think it's a great 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:16.920 time to ask. 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.160 Yes. That is one hundred percent part of NLP, and 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:22.280 it's part of what contributes to the sort of sketchy 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.800 reputation you were asking about earlier. Ben, I mean the 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.960 fact that you can just show up to an NLP 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.760 seminar for I mean, they used to be thirty days. 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:34.000 Now people are banging them out in a weekend. But 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:35.440 you can go to one of these events. You can 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:37.480 shell out a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.280 get trained by someone, and then go train other people 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.520 or practice on clients who may come to you with 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.360 say real trauma or with lifelong phobias, and hope that 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:50.960 you can fix them. And you are not subject to 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.520 the same oversight whatsoever. As a practicing psychologist. You know, 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.800 you can't have your NLP license revoked in the same way, 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:00.720 because there's no license. The first place you get a 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:05.400 certificate when you get trained practice suits. Yeah, you're right, 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:07.920 I sued my pseudo scientific n LP. 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.560 Sorry warm up, Yeah, I know. 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.480 I'm amazed. I stuck the landing on that one. Yeah, 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:18.840 this is this is really haunted NLP from its early 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.400 days too, right because at us at EC, Santa Cruz, 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.760 Bandler and Grinda were really tight with Gregory Bateson, who 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.640 you know, was and is the sort of extremely influential polymath. 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.680 He is regarded as one of the founders of cybernetics, 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:34.600 but you know, was also the sort of dude who 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.520 can like give you a lecture on like the structure 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:37.720 of beetle wings or whatever. 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:38.040 I mean. 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.200 He also studied trance. He was married to Margaret Meade, 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.640 the anthropologist, and so you know, he connected them to 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:48.480 Milton Erickson. He also connected them to NAPAs State Hospital, 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.480 which is a psychiatric hospital not far from you see, 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:55.400 Santa Cruz and Bandler and Grinder and their other like 0:15:55.520 --> 0:16:00.360 undergrad collaborators got cart Blanche to just experiment on the 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:05.280 people there, people with schizophrenia, with absolutely no oversight. I mean, 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.400 these are people who came up with this like rogue 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.080 form of hypnotherapy and then it was like, yeah, why 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.040 why do you see if it helps these inmates or 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.080 sorry they're patients, but I mean, honestly give them the 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:18.760 state of psychiatric hospitals back then. 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.040 There you know, not consensual patients. 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.400 Yeah, very vulnerable people who presumably were not in a 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:28.080 state to you know, elect to receive this kind of 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.200 therapy that didn't even have a name at that point. 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:32.200 Can we talk more about Grinder. I feel like he 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.200 has a weird past that you get into in the podcast, 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.640 but he feels even more mysterious to me and like 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:39.800 there's something there because he has quite a bit of 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.440 a military like Cold War strategy kind of past. Right. 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.480 Yeah, I mean there's tons of lore surrounding both of 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.160 the founders of NLP, and it can be really hard 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:52.280 to sort of nail down what's real in both of 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.200 their cases. We did ultimately interview Bandler. Grinder wasn't interested 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.600 in getting an interview, but I can tell you what 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:03.440 said about him. He is said to have been some 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.399 sort of spy. He was definitely in the army. He 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.680 was definitely an officer serving in Europe during the Cold War. 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.240 He traveled widely and was apparently very gifted with languages 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.520 and not just learning sort of the words, grammar, vocabulary, 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.359 but also kind of the physical way in which people 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.000 in different cultures communicate, and so that kind of you 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.000 know again to the role playing that was sort of 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.000 a big part of NLP. Like one one NLP concept 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:31.920 essentially is that if you change your physiology, which means, 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.680 you know, say, stand up straight instead of slouching over, 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:38.520 you'll feel more confident. You'll be that confident person that 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:40.880 you're trying to, you know, think your way into being well. 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.399 You also need to physically embody that confidence. So you know, 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:47.840 some of this is pretty intuitive, but Grinder's background helped 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:49.159 him come to those realizations. 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:50.720 Yeah, can I just say the moment you said that, 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.080 I sat up more straight because I wanted to self. 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.119 That I know, I know I was likestus school. That 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:55.919 stuff they don't. 0:17:55.800 --> 0:18:01.439 Want to know you guys to know reminds me of 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:06.119 your water conversation early on in one of the episodes, 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:07.760 right about what Illicit's thirst. 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.679 Yeah, that was one of our cheeky demos. Badler and 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.919 Grinder would do these things called double inductions, where they 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:16.920 would each whisper in someone's ear at the same time 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.679 saying different things, and the idea is one person This 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.320 is a hypnotic technique. It's still used in other context, 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:27.280 but basically one person is saying actually relevant stuff like 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.800 they're embedding commands like you'll feel this, you'll do blah. 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.719 The other person is just speaking about whatever. I mean. 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.360 It could be utter nonsense. Indeed it should be. Basically, 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.119 you're trying to distract the conscious mind, and so the 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.520 brain basically can't process all this stuff, and then that 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:46.159 makes it more susceptible to the messaging. So, Alison, I 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.399 tried a little version of that. You'll have to let 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:51.960 us know if it worked on you. But it was 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:53.880 basically us just playing around and trying to figure out 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:54.960 if we could pull the stuff off. 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:58.600 I thought, what I think we all really loved about 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.600 that in particular is when we start off with in 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:06.440 LP as a concept. It's such a broad group term 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.560 for various tactics and models that it's incredibly helpful to 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.600 hear some of the nuts and bolts specific So the 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:20.040 double induction is one technique. What are some other things 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:24.040 people might encounter that could be called in LP techniques 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.359 that they might not consciously clock. 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.119 Yeah, let me think of some quick ones. So if 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.520 you've ever heard, for instance, that people's eyes dart to 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:35.760 the left when they're lying, or that they'll look a 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:37.840 certain way when they're lying when they're telling the truth. 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:42.320 That's essentially derived from NLP. NLP is a whole system 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:47.280 of eye movements that correspond to what people are thinking, supposedly, 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:51.000 So if you glance up, you're in the visual field 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.880 and you're either imagining things that don't exist visually or 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.000 you're recalling images that you have seen before. And then 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.959 there's sort of directions for sounds, for feelings, and all 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:03.000 of this is supposed to help you basically read people's 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.959 minds and help you sort of guide or guide them 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.800 in a therapeutic context or manipulate them. If you're trying 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:11.280 to sell them a used car, you know, if you 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:15.000 see them glancing up into this supposed visual realm, you 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.120 might emphasize the visual aspects of the car you're trying 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.320 to sell. So you might say, like, you know, imagine 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.760 yourself on the open road and the wind is you know, 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.840 in your hair when the convertible. But if someone's glancing 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:31.400 down into the physical sensation directions, then you might be like, yeah, 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:33.879 those those plush leather seats. 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:35.080 Wow, I'm a. 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:37.600 New York you actually like what do you say about cars? 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.159 But you know, roar of the engine for hearing anyway, 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.879 So you use these tells to appeal to people's thoughts, 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:48.800 and I think that that premise has trickled down to 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.680 us in various ways undernaths that are not an LP. 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:53.600 Well, now that's interesting because there is a there is 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:58.920 a you know, a method of trauma processing and therapy 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.679 called e m D that focuses on some of the 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:04.960 same left to right eye movement. It seems like almost 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:06.719 the flip side of what you're talking about, But that 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.600 does appear to be evidence based and something that is 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.280 you know, there's a lot of stock put into Yes. 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:15.680 This is what's crazy. So one of the big revelations 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:19.080 of our podcast is that the founder of EMDR was 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:22.800 an NLP practitioner. She was working for John Grinder as 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:26.800 an office assistant for many years. She practiced NLP. She 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.159 wrote about NLP, She was a card carrying NLPR. She 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:34.520 sort of coincidence pulled away from NLP after Bandler's high 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:38.080 profile murder trial, for which she was acquitted. I should mention, 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:41.840 but it was a big, sordid tabloid story that focused 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:45.040 a lot of negative attention on NLP. So after that 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:47.640 she distanced herself from NLP and came up with this 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:51.359 kind of cockmany story about how she figured out EMDR. 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.359 She said, right, this is Francine Shapiro, and she said 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:57.879 that while she was trying to think of the dissertation 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.720