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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: argue you are here. That makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know. Now, we've talked about something

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Speaker 3: in the past, friends and neighbors, something called n LP,

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Speaker 3: short for neuro linguistic programming. This is a group term

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Speaker 3: for a series of technique strategies, experimental models, all built

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Speaker 3: to theoretically help you people reach a variety of what

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Speaker 3: we'll call improved outcomes. You know, if you have a

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Speaker 3: problem speaking in public, maybe NLP can help. It can

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Speaker 3: help you quit consuming tobacco. It might, as we're going

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Speaker 3: to learn, even help you become a sharpshooter.

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Speaker 2: Well, recently we've probably heard about NLP in a different

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Speaker 2: context because as the AI boom, we're amongst it right now,

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Speaker 2: as it's been growing and generating. We hear natural language

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Speaker 2: processing rights to as NLP a lot, which is just

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Speaker 2: the way that computers are able to actually use human language, interpret,

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Speaker 2: and then basically regurgitate human language.

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Speaker 4: They do it so well too.

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Speaker 3: And that might be an episode for another day, but

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Speaker 3: that's an important distinction there, Matt. The parts of NLP

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Speaker 3: that we're talking about neural linguistic programming here. They're huge

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Speaker 3: in the self help industry. They're used by some of

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Speaker 3: the most famous life coaches, but as well as some

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Speaker 3: of the world's most well known celebrities and athletes. They'll

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Speaker 3: swear by this, you know what to look for. You

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Speaker 3: will begin to recognize these tactics or these practices all

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Speaker 3: over the place. But what is NLP exactly? Can you

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Speaker 3: really hypnotize yourself into becoming a better person. On the

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Speaker 3: flip side, what if you could secretly hypnotize people into

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Speaker 3: giving you whatever you want? These are headache questions. Luckily

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Speaker 3: we are not exploring these alone. We are thrilled, friends

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Speaker 3: and neighbors, fellow conspiracy realists to welcome the journalist, the author,

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Speaker 3: the podcaster and creator of the hit new podcast Mind

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Speaker 3: Games Zoe List. Guys, Zoe, thank you so much for

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Speaker 3: joining us today.

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Speaker 5: Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Guys.

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Speaker 2: Got to tell you, Zoe, we just finished listening to

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Speaker 2: all the episodes, I believe nine episodes of mind Games. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there is so much contained within your show that is

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Speaker 2: difficult to even know where to start. I was hoping

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Speaker 2: maybe we could go back to Santa Cruz, California, the

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, let's say, to a time when therapeutic techniques

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Speaker 2: were being developed by college students and just we were

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Speaker 2: getting real weird with it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it was getting pretty weird. That's a great place

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Speaker 5: to start. That's where neurolinguistic programming originated. And as you say,

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Speaker 5: it's a super slippery subject. It means a lot of

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Speaker 5: different things in different places, in different contacts. So it's

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Speaker 5: also where I like to begin to explain it. Basically,

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Speaker 5: you have California in the nineteen seventies. Santa Cruz is

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Speaker 5: just down the road from Big sur where you've got

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Speaker 5: the headquarters of Esslin and the Human Potential Movement. So

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Speaker 5: you know, this is a place where people are trying

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Speaker 5: really novel approaches to become better versions of themselves, to

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Speaker 5: you know, reenact their births, to primarily scream, ideally to well,

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Speaker 5: I don't know. The podcast is not about Esslin but.

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Speaker 4: Self actualized perhaps.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I was trying to avoid that traced out there,

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Speaker 5: and he is so laced. I mean even the name

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Speaker 5: right is this really odd putting jargony acronym, which, as

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Speaker 5: you say now has another meaning that but yeah, it's

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Speaker 5: like very alienating in so many ways. But basically, this guy,

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Speaker 5: Richard Bandler, is this sort of loose cannon, troubled twenty

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Speaker 5: something who's at EC Santa Cruz, specifically at this one

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Speaker 5: really experimental college within the university, Krisgi College, where it

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Speaker 5: was sort of conceived as this experimental new school where

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Speaker 5: students built their own dorms with lumber. When the school opened,

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Speaker 5: teachers that cross legged on top of their desks, barefoot

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Speaker 5: in blue jeans, talking about communism. You know, this was

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Speaker 5: the vibe. So basically I'm here for yeah, I know,

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Speaker 5: find me out right. It actually is very beautiful. I've

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Speaker 5: been to the campus now and although it's grown a

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Speaker 5: lot and changed, it is on this beautiful hill in

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Speaker 5: the middle of a redwood forest, so that's sort of

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Speaker 5: mist hanging in the branches. There's views of the ocean.

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Speaker 5: It's very atmospheric, and so Bandler is this sort of

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Speaker 5: troubled guy with a checkered past. We can talk about

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Speaker 5: his background a little more because it's fascinating, but he's there,

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Speaker 5: and he teams up with a linguistics professor, a young

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Speaker 5: professor who's in his thirties named John Grinder, and together

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Speaker 5: they basically start running these experimental therapy sessions on students

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Speaker 5: on Bandler's peers, and they're bringing in a lot of

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Speaker 5: different therapeutic modalities Virginia Setyer's Family Systems therapy. They're bringing

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Speaker 5: in gestalt where you basically yell a lot, among other things.

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Speaker 5: But you know, there's a lot of LARPing in both

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Speaker 5: of these therapy models, like you you know, have other

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Speaker 5: people pretend to be your family members, for instance, and

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Speaker 5: then you talk to them. Yes, lots of role play,

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Speaker 5: so it's very physical. It's you know, amusing at times,

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Speaker 5: but people are having these real breakthroughs, and eventually they

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Speaker 5: add hypnosis into the mix, and that really is what

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Speaker 5: launches NLP into the world, specifically the corporate world and

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Speaker 5: some other sectors. But I hope that's a helpful origin

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Speaker 5: story and we can dig into any parts of that

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Speaker 5: more detail.

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Speaker 6: Just for sure, front though, is NLP is not I

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Speaker 6: mean it's not the same as run of the mill hypnosis, right,

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Speaker 6: and they're related, but there's it's like a plussed.

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Speaker 4: Up version of hypnosis.

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Speaker 6: I'm kind of interested in your thoughts on the connection

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Speaker 6: between those disciplines.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, there's not really

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Speaker 5: a run of the mill hypnosis. It's the thing like

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Speaker 5: hypnosis is probably the only form of therapy that you know,

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Speaker 5: can be used in these really rigorous, medically backed contexts

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Speaker 5: like smoking, cessation, pain relief, et cetera. But also sell

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Speaker 5: out stadiums in Las Vegas. I mean we've all seen people,

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Speaker 5: you know, quacking like a duck on stage, or you know,

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Speaker 5: giant dudes being made to imagine they're delicate ballerinas, all

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Speaker 5: of this sort of you know, I think very like

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Speaker 5: BDSMI humiliation based stage stage hypnosis. So you know there's

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Speaker 5: hip Hiosis has also been used for forensic purposes. I

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Speaker 5: mean a bunch of states have outlawed evidence collection from

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Speaker 5: witnesses or people who have been put into hypnotic states.

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Speaker 5: That's kind of a no, no, frowned upon.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 5: Amazingly, it took a while, but you know, so it's

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Speaker 5: existed in all these places. But yeah, it's you know,

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Speaker 5: regarding the relationship between NLP and hypnosis, I would say

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Speaker 5: NLP is using hypnosis in various ways among other techniques

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Speaker 5: borrowed from these other therapeutic models. So it's one of

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Speaker 5: many things in this grab bag, but it's probably the

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Speaker 5: most dominant factor within NLP.

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Speaker 3: There we go, and so I've got a couple questions

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Speaker 3: here to step back. For anybody who is unfamiliar, My

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Speaker 3: games is hosted with your collaborator and close friend, Alice Hines,

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Speaker 3: and in the in the beginning of this journey, you

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Speaker 3: all describe a pretty interesting origin story of your own partnership.

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Speaker 3: Could you tell us a little bit about how you

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Speaker 3: guys met and then how you became interested in in

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Speaker 3: LP and bonus points for anyone who doesn't know, could

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Speaker 3: you describe an LP.

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Speaker 5: Al Science is one of my best friends, and we

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Speaker 5: met about ten years ago at a sound meditation in

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Speaker 5: New Jersey which involves sleeping over at this house near

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Speaker 5: the water and basically getting gongs and rainsticks and chimes

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Speaker 5: played over us and a group of other people.

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Speaker 3: Sound bad so much a sound bath, it was.

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Speaker 5: Like a twelve hour sound bath, so it was pretty transformative.

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Speaker 5: Alice came to that event dating someone she's been with

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Speaker 5: for five years, and by the end of her astral journeys,

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Speaker 5: induced by the experience, she was no longer dating that person,

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Speaker 5: at least meant to me. She was still dating him. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: she had to fill him in on these new developments.

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Speaker 5: But it was there that we met that we found

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Speaker 5: out we had a ton in common. We're both journalists,

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Speaker 5: were both reporters. I think we're both interested in these

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Speaker 5: kind of subcultures and niche aspects of culture that kind

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Speaker 5: of fly under the radar but actually really shape how

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Speaker 5: we think and what we believe as a society, and

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Speaker 5: NLP is definitely one of those things. We became interested

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Speaker 5: in hypnosis kind of generally. Alice had stumbled across NLP

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Speaker 5: in her reporting on the Twin Flames Universe cult for

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Speaker 5: Vanity Fair. She did a great piece for them that

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Speaker 5: then became a documentary which I recommend everyone goes and watches.

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Speaker 5: But basically she'd encountered NLP and a cult context. I

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Speaker 5: encountered it through researching hypnosis and figuring out which aspect

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Speaker 5: of it we should dig into. Like I was saying,

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Speaker 5: there's a ton of different forms of hypnosis. Well, unsurprisingly,

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Speaker 5: we settled on the one that is popular with cults,

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Speaker 5: the one whose founder stood trial for murdering a woman

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Speaker 5: in the nineteen eighties. That woman happened to be a

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Speaker 5: sex worker and his kokiine dealer's girlfriend. And I just

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Speaker 5: became fascinated by Richard Bandler, by this guy who has this,

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Speaker 5: you know, has this sort of like sordid criminal record,

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Speaker 5: but at the same time is selling his wares to

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Speaker 5: the US military. NLP was widely used by government spies,

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Speaker 5: by army training dudes, So we can get into that.

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Speaker 5: But just like what that bizarre Nick felt Worth exploring

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Speaker 5: an answer to your third question, can I describe NLP?

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Speaker 5: I would describe NLP as a as a rogue form

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Speaker 5: of hypnotherapy that took over the world. That's my one

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Speaker 5: life to.

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Speaker 4: But that's a great place to start, for sure.

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Speaker 3: So the ubiquity is part of the fascination for you,

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Speaker 3: for sure, Alice, could you tell us now that we

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Speaker 3: have that understanding, that's the best definition I've heard rogue hypnotherapy.

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Speaker 3: What makes it as a concept so controversial in certain

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Speaker 3: academic circles.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's been widely described as a pseudoscience.

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Speaker 5: I actually went to this NLP event, the NLP Leadership Summit,

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Speaker 5: a few years ago, and all the NLP trainers there

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Speaker 5: were sort of all in a twitter about how the

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Speaker 5: first line about NLP on Wikipedia is that NLP is

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Speaker 5: the pseudoscience. I mean, this is just the way people

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Speaker 5: generally perceive it. That has a lot to do with

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Speaker 5: the founders antipathy for traditional therapy, even though they were

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Speaker 5: borrowing from some of you know, these pioneering psychiatrists like Setier,

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Speaker 5: like Milton Erics and the hypnotherapists, they had a lot

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Speaker 5: of contempt for most therapists. They thought it was a

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Speaker 5: total ripoff that you would spend years and years and

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Speaker 5: years on your therapist couch getting to the bottom of

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Speaker 5: your problems when you could just fix them instantly. That

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Speaker 5: was what they were trying to do, and that basically

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Speaker 5: became the selling point for NLP. You know, you don't

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Speaker 5: have to spend thousands of dollars, you can just show

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Speaker 5: up to an NLP session and boom your curt So

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Speaker 5: they never were interested in putting NLP through a rigorous,

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Speaker 5: peer reviewed scientific process. Some people have tried to do that,

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Speaker 5: but Bandler and grind are the two founders. They were

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Speaker 5: always pretty contemptuous of that, and they were just like,

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Speaker 5: onto the next thing. If it works, it works, you know,

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Speaker 5: and jokes on you nerds if you want to dig

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Speaker 5: into the like nitty gritty details and do these lame experiments.

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Speaker 3: There's something so thoroughly American too about that idea of

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Speaker 3: no deferred gratitude, get me my results instantly. I have

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Speaker 3: to wonder if LP could have reached the success it

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Speaker 3: has if it had or the abiquity it has if

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Speaker 3: it had not been started in the US.

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Speaker 5: That's a great question. I mean, it is very popular

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Speaker 5: in countries around the world. Now. At that event I

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Speaker 5: mentioned there were NLP trainers from Egypt, from Brazil.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 5: It has a huge presence in the UK and Germany,

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Speaker 5: also Australia. You know it really its reach is very

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Speaker 5: wide at this point. But no, I think it is

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Speaker 5: a uniquely American story. And really that transformation from those

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Speaker 5: early days in Santa Cruz when all these movements, not

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Speaker 5: just NLP but like Esselyn, etc. Know, it was all

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Speaker 5: about like you know, realizing your full potential for good.

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Speaker 5: You know, if we can make ourselves better individuals, we

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Speaker 5: can avoid another Vietnam War by you know, by extension,

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Speaker 5: we can you know, reform the ways we relate to

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Speaker 5: each other by figuring out how we relate to ourselves,

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Speaker 5: et cetera. And then you go from there to NLP

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Speaker 5: at least becoming marketed as this kind of self optimization

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Speaker 5: technique and like a lot of self help therapies that

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Speaker 5: are presented as being very you know, outside the box

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Speaker 5: and novel, like they really just sort of reinforce status

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Speaker 5: quo values like be a better version of yourself so

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Speaker 5: you can like work more, crank out more capital, you know,

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Speaker 5: sleep better so you can be more productive. I mean,

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Speaker 5: it's it's sort of beenal like ultimately what it what

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Speaker 5: it ended up hearing.

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Speaker 6: World and speaking of American stories, I mean, like the

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Speaker 6: idea of being a life coach or a self help guru.

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Speaker 6: That's sort of a way of getting around licensure and

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Speaker 6: like actually going to school for psychology and studying rigorous

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Speaker 6: being able to kind of brand yourself. Is this thing,

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Speaker 6: this influencer type without actually being you know, a professional.

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Speaker 4: Is that part of it? Like, is there any licensure involved.

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Speaker 4: Is there a governing body? Ben?

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Speaker 6: That was your question I saw in the outline. It

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Speaker 6: just really occurred to me. I think it's a great

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Speaker 6: time to ask.

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Speaker 5: Yes. That is one hundred percent part of NLP, and

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Speaker 5: it's part of what contributes to the sort of sketchy

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Speaker 5: reputation you were asking about earlier. Ben, I mean the

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Speaker 5: fact that you can just show up to an NLP

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Speaker 5: seminar for I mean, they used to be thirty days.

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Speaker 5: Now people are banging them out in a weekend. But

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Speaker 5: you can go to one of these events. You can

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Speaker 5: shell out a few hundred or a few thousand dollars,

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Speaker 5: get trained by someone, and then go train other people

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Speaker 5: or practice on clients who may come to you with

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Speaker 5: say real trauma or with lifelong phobias, and hope that

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Speaker 5: you can fix them. And you are not subject to

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Speaker 5: the same oversight whatsoever. As a practicing psychologist. You know,

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Speaker 5: you can't have your NLP license revoked in the same way,

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Speaker 5: because there's no license. The first place you get a

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Speaker 5: certificate when you get trained practice suits. Yeah, you're right,

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Speaker 5: I sued my pseudo scientific n LP.

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Speaker 4: Sorry warm up, Yeah, I know.

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Speaker 5: I'm amazed. I stuck the landing on that one. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: this is this is really haunted NLP from its early

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Speaker 5: days too, right because at us at EC, Santa Cruz,

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Speaker 5: Bandler and Grinda were really tight with Gregory Bateson, who

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Speaker 5: you know, was and is the sort of extremely influential polymath.

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Speaker 5: He is regarded as one of the founders of cybernetics,

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Speaker 5: but you know, was also the sort of dude who

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Speaker 5: can like give you a lecture on like the structure

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Speaker 5: of beetle wings or whatever.

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 5: He also studied trance. He was married to Margaret Meade,

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Speaker 5: the anthropologist, and so you know, he connected them to

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Speaker 5: Milton Erickson. He also connected them to NAPAs State Hospital,

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Speaker 5: which is a psychiatric hospital not far from you see,

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Speaker 5: Santa Cruz and Bandler and Grinder and their other like

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Speaker 5: undergrad collaborators got cart Blanche to just experiment on the

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Speaker 5: people there, people with schizophrenia, with absolutely no oversight. I mean,

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Speaker 5: these are people who came up with this like rogue

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Speaker 5: form of hypnotherapy and then it was like, yeah, why

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Speaker 5: why do you see if it helps these inmates or

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Speaker 5: sorry they're patients, but I mean, honestly give them the

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Speaker 5: state of psychiatric hospitals back then.

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Speaker 3: There you know, not consensual patients.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, very vulnerable people who presumably were not in a

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Speaker 5: state to you know, elect to receive this kind of

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Speaker 5: therapy that didn't even have a name at that point.

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Speaker 2: Can we talk more about Grinder. I feel like he

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Speaker 2: has a weird past that you get into in the podcast,

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Speaker 2: but he feels even more mysterious to me and like

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Speaker 2: there's something there because he has quite a bit of

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Speaker 2: a military like Cold War strategy kind of past. Right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there's tons of lore surrounding both of

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Speaker 5: the founders of NLP, and it can be really hard

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Speaker 5: to sort of nail down what's real in both of

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Speaker 5: their cases. We did ultimately interview Bandler. Grinder wasn't interested

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Speaker 5: in getting an interview, but I can tell you what

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Speaker 5: said about him. He is said to have been some

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Speaker 5: sort of spy. He was definitely in the army. He

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Speaker 5: was definitely an officer serving in Europe during the Cold War.

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Speaker 5: He traveled widely and was apparently very gifted with languages

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Speaker 5: and not just learning sort of the words, grammar, vocabulary,

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Speaker 5: but also kind of the physical way in which people

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Speaker 5: in different cultures communicate, and so that kind of you

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Speaker 5: know again to the role playing that was sort of

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Speaker 5: a big part of NLP. Like one one NLP concept

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Speaker 5: essentially is that if you change your physiology, which means,

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Speaker 5: you know, say, stand up straight instead of slouching over,

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Speaker 5: you'll feel more confident. You'll be that confident person that

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Speaker 5: you're trying to, you know, think your way into being well.

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Speaker 5: You also need to physically embody that confidence. So you know,

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Speaker 5: some of this is pretty intuitive, but Grinder's background helped

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Speaker 5: him come to those realizations.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, can I just say the moment you said that,

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Speaker 6: I sat up more straight because I wanted to self.

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Speaker 5: That I know, I know I was likestus school. That

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Speaker 5: stuff they don't.

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Speaker 7: Want to know you guys to know reminds me of

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Speaker 7: your water conversation early on in one of the episodes,

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Speaker 7: right about what Illicit's thirst.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that was one of our cheeky demos. Badler and

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Speaker 5: Grinder would do these things called double inductions, where they

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Speaker 5: would each whisper in someone's ear at the same time

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Speaker 5: saying different things, and the idea is one person This

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Speaker 5: is a hypnotic technique. It's still used in other context,

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Speaker 5: but basically one person is saying actually relevant stuff like

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Speaker 5: they're embedding commands like you'll feel this, you'll do blah.

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Speaker 5: The other person is just speaking about whatever. I mean.

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Speaker 5: It could be utter nonsense. Indeed it should be. Basically,

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Speaker 5: you're trying to distract the conscious mind, and so the

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Speaker 5: brain basically can't process all this stuff, and then that

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Speaker 5: makes it more susceptible to the messaging. So, Alison, I

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Speaker 5: tried a little version of that. You'll have to let

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Speaker 5: us know if it worked on you. But it was

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Speaker 5: basically us just playing around and trying to figure out

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Speaker 5: if we could pull the stuff off.

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Speaker 3: I thought, what I think we all really loved about

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Speaker 3: that in particular is when we start off with in

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Speaker 3: LP as a concept. It's such a broad group term

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Speaker 3: for various tactics and models that it's incredibly helpful to

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Speaker 3: hear some of the nuts and bolts specific So the

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Speaker 3: double induction is one technique. What are some other things

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Speaker 3: people might encounter that could be called in LP techniques

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Speaker 3: that they might not consciously clock.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, let me think of some quick ones. So if

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Speaker 5: you've ever heard, for instance, that people's eyes dart to

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Speaker 5: the left when they're lying, or that they'll look a

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Speaker 5: certain way when they're lying when they're telling the truth.

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Speaker 5: That's essentially derived from NLP. NLP is a whole system

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Speaker 5: of eye movements that correspond to what people are thinking, supposedly,

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Speaker 5: So if you glance up, you're in the visual field

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Speaker 5: and you're either imagining things that don't exist visually or

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Speaker 5: you're recalling images that you have seen before. And then

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Speaker 5: there's sort of directions for sounds, for feelings, and all

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Speaker 5: of this is supposed to help you basically read people's

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Speaker 5: minds and help you sort of guide or guide them

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Speaker 5: in a therapeutic context or manipulate them. If you're trying

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Speaker 5: to sell them a used car, you know, if you

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Speaker 5: see them glancing up into this supposed visual realm, you

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Speaker 5: might emphasize the visual aspects of the car you're trying

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Speaker 5: to sell. So you might say, like, you know, imagine

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Speaker 5: yourself on the open road and the wind is you know,

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Speaker 5: in your hair when the convertible. But if someone's glancing

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Speaker 5: down into the physical sensation directions, then you might be like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: those those plush leather seats.

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Speaker 4: Wow, I'm a.

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Speaker 5: New York you actually like what do you say about cars?

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Speaker 5: But you know, roar of the engine for hearing anyway,

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Speaker 5: So you use these tells to appeal to people's thoughts,

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Speaker 5: and I think that that premise has trickled down to

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Speaker 5: us in various ways undernaths that are not an LP.

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Speaker 6: Well, now that's interesting because there is a there is

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Speaker 6: a you know, a method of trauma processing and therapy

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Speaker 6: called e m D that focuses on some of the

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Speaker 6: same left to right eye movement. It seems like almost

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Speaker 6: the flip side of what you're talking about, But that

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Speaker 6: does appear to be evidence based and something that is

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Speaker 6: you know, there's a lot of stock put into Yes.

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Speaker 5: This is what's crazy. So one of the big revelations

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Speaker 5: of our podcast is that the founder of EMDR was

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Speaker 5: an NLP practitioner. She was working for John Grinder as

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Speaker 5: an office assistant for many years. She practiced NLP. She

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Speaker 5: wrote about NLP, She was a card carrying NLPR. She

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Speaker 5: sort of coincidence pulled away from NLP after Bandler's high

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Speaker 5: profile murder trial, for which she was acquitted. I should mention,

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Speaker 5: but it was a big, sordid tabloid story that focused

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Speaker 5: a lot of negative attention on NLP. So after that

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Speaker 5: she distanced herself from NLP and came up with this

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Speaker 5: kind of cockmany story about how she figured out EMDR.

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Speaker 5: She said, right, this is Francine Shapiro, and she said

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Speaker 5: that while she was trying to think of the dissertation

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Speaker 5: subject in psychology, she was walking through the park and

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Speaker 5: thinking about something upsetting, and she just so happened to

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Speaker 5: notice that her eyes were moving very rapidly, and those

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Speaker 5: movements helped her feel. Okay, Like people have pointed out, like,

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Speaker 5: there's no way you would clock the fact that your

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Speaker 5: eyes are moving as quickly as they would need to.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, I think her interest in eye movements clearly

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Speaker 5: derived from NLP, and then unlike van Ler and Grinder,

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Speaker 5: the founders of LP, she was interested in those clinical

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Speaker 5: trials putting it to the scientific test. And that's why

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Speaker 5: today NLP is regarded as a pseudoscience and EMDR is

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Speaker 5: a widely practiced trauma therapy that's endorsed by the World

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Speaker 5: Health Organization and the US military.

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Speaker 2: But the same eye movement thing, you know, which is

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Speaker 2: in a lot of ways just kind of this lore

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Speaker 2: that was you know, created, and it's not really seems

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Speaker 2: to be real and doesn't seem to be real to me,

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Speaker 2: at least we see massive YouTube channels and other creators

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Speaker 2: out there who use this as ways to analyze tape,

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Speaker 2: let's say of a court case or something. You've likely

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Speaker 2: seen some of this where there are huge true crime

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Speaker 2: creators that just study eye movement and they will tell

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Speaker 2: you whether or not someone's lying and what they're actually

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Speaker 2: thinking about. It's just fascinating to me that something could

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Speaker 2: be conjured, you know, in the nineteen seventies as this

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Speaker 2: one thing NLP. Then it goes into a therapeutic technique

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Speaker 2: later on, but it can also then spawn YouTube careers.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's fascinating. I hadn't even made that connection, but

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Speaker 5: that is a very concrete use case of NLP ideas

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Speaker 5: trickling out, And that is what's fascinating about NLP. Like

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Speaker 5: whether it's because that sort of damning press coverage during

432
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 5: the murder trial, or because it's the pseudoscience NLP often

433
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 5: is used under other names. We find it in a

434
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 5: lot of places, whether it's those eye movement divinations or

435
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 5: just you know, corporate HR speak. You know, a lot

436
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 5: of the language baked into that is derived from NLP.

437
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 5: I interviewed a former Army intelligence officer. This didn't make

438
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 5: it into the podcast, but he moved from the government

439
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 5: espionage context to corporate espionage. He founded a business and

440
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 5: he would use NLP techniques all the time, and he

441
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 5: would train people. He'd sort of had a consultancy, and

442
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,719
Speaker 5: he would train Allied government spies. You know, after the

443
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 5: fall of the Iron Curtain, a lot of newly Allied

444
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 5: members need to sort of be brought up to speed

445
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 5: on US intelligence gathering techniques, so they didn't go around

446
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 5: doing the Soviet model, and so he was teaching them NLP.

447
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 5: He said this, but he didn't call it NLP because

448
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 5: the terms are just so alienating. So instead he would

449
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 5: just be like, Okay, here's the thing that I found

450
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 5: really helpful, without using the like very technical jargon like

451
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 5: this is a six step reframing, or this is a

452
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 5: switch technique, which is just like, maybe.

453
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 3: You don't need to know, Zoe, I'm here in a

454
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 3: bonus episode because that's an interview i'd love to check out.

455
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh sweet, Well that's that's good feedback. I should

456
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 5: talk to my producers.

457
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 3: Well, one thing we do need to go back to

458
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 3: or I definitely want us to go back to this.

459
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 3: This is something that our audience has already clocked that

460
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 3: we should explore in depth to the degree that you're comfortable.

461
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 3: We mentioned a murder, right, We talked about Santa Cruz

462
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 3: in the nineteen eighties. Something tragic occurred there. That is

463
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 3: a I mean, it's a podcast version of a page turner.

464
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 3: It's one of the episodes I listened to repeatedly. Could

465
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 3: you take us back to nineteen eighty six and tell

466
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 3: us how this homicide relates to the larger than life

467
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 3: figures of NLP.

468
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,479
Speaker 5: Absolutely so. In the nineteen eighties, Bandler was having a

469
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 5: tough time. He basically broke up from his co founder,

470
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 5: John Grinder. He also so divorced from his first wife,

471
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 5: Leslie Cameron Bandler, who was a NLP practitioner, And he

472
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 5: was in Santa Cruz and falling in with this kind

473
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 5: of increasingly seedy underbelly of the city. He found a

474
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 5: close friend and this guy, James Marino, who had a

475
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 5: two page rap sheet of mostly petty crimes, but was

476
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 5: a prolific cocaine dealer, shall we say, and user, and

477
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 5: they sort of bonded over their mutual love of that

478
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 5: drug and of NLP. James Marino was into NLP. So

479
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 5: with Marino with this woman, Karen Christiansen, who was Marino's

480
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 5: on again, off again much younger girlfriend, also Bandler's bookkeeper.

481
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 5: Maybe it's all a little hazy and a sex worker

482
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 5: in Santa Cruz. He spends a lot of time with

483
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 5: these people, and things take a turn when Marino grows

484
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 5: increasingly paranoid about Karan Christensen. He thinks that she arranged

485
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 5: for him to be beaten up at a Halloween party,

486
00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 5: for instance, and Bandler. It depends whose testimony you believe.

487
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 5: Bandler and Marino had very different versions of these events,

488
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 5: may or may not have come to suspect Korean of

489
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 5: being involved in that violin attack on his friend. In

490
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 5: early November, Karean Christianensen was killed in her living room.

491
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 5: She was found by police on the floor with a

492
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 5: single gunshot wound too the face. She had been doing

493
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 5: cocaine at the time. She was killed in the early

494
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 5: hours of the night with two men, Richard Bandler and

495
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 5: James Morino. They were the only two guys present and

496
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 5: they pointed the finger at each other. And this story

497
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 5: basically took off not only in California, but attracted national

498
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 5: media attention as well. The military contacts that Bandlor had

499
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 5: worked with earlier in the nineteen eighties, rushed to his defense.

500
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 5: They got him out on bail. This was important, so

501
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 5: he didn't show up to you know, the subsequent court

502
00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 5: proceedings in a prison jumpsuit. We interviewed his defense, We

503
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 5: interviewed people who who spoke to him at the time,

504
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 5: who spoke to Marino at the time, and we get

505
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 5: into all the kind of horrifically sorted details in that

506
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 5: episode of the podcast. But hopefully that's a that's an

507
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 5: okay overview. Sorry I couldn't.

508
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 3: That's been phenomenal, That's phenomenal. We also we also in

509
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 3: the follow up. One thing that will surprise a lot

510
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 3: of people, do check out that episode in particular, folks

511
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 3: check out the whole show, but for the for the

512
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: deeper blow by blow. That's a canot miss and one

513
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 3: of the most surprising things. Can't speak for everybody, but

514
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 3: at least for me, was not just the acquittal, but

515
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 3: the fact that later Bandler is able to arguably leverage

516
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: this and become like the NLP guide to see post trial.

517
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: Is that true?

518
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, one hundred percent. I actually interviewed someone in the

519
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 5: NLP world who told me that it might have even

520
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 5: burnished Bandler's reputation. He said, I'm paraphrasing. He said thing

521
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 5: like yeah, if you're you know, from Sweden and you've

522
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 5: never met an accused murder before, you know, this was

523
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 5: a hugely seductive opportunity to study with Richard Bandler. Bandler

524
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 5: had sort of cultivated a bit of a loose cannon

525
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 5: mystique throughout his life prior to the murder. He actually

526
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 5: recently bragged to a journalist for The Guardian about deliberately

527
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 5: electrocuting his stepfather when he was a little kid. He

528
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 5: said that his stepfather was abusive and to get back

529
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 5: at him, he basically rigged a wire to a doormat

530
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 5: to a door knob during an electrical storm. But basically

531
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 5: when the guy opened the door, he got electrocuted and

532
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 5: went to the hospital. And Badler was ten years old

533
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 5: when he supposedly did this. But anyway, it's a kind

534
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 5: of fascinating thing to tell the mainstream media after you've

535
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 5: you know, stood trial for murder. So he clearly hasn't

536
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 5: shied away from some of these more controversial stories about

537
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 5: himself despite that.

538
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 3: And here will pause for a word from our sponsors.

539
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 3: We'll be back with more mind games.

540
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 4: All Right, we're back. Let's hop right into it with Zoe.

541
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: I want to talk about another seductive opportunity in the

542
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: form of Ross Jeffries.

543
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 5: Okay, so.

544
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, this is a bit of there's a bit

545
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: of a walk. So last night my partner and I

546
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 2: watched Inside the Manosphere. This is the new Louis Thureau

547
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: thing that you can find here on Netflix, actually, and

548
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: it reminded me of his other film, My Scientology movie,

549
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: which is one of the first times guys, I think

550
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: I think some of the first interactions we had with

551
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: NLP is when we were talking about Scientology. Some of

552
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: the technology of NLP being used within that church in

553
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: at least some ways.

554
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 6: Are those techniques I want to use during some of

555
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 6: the whatever the confession setting, that's the word.

556
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 3: Some of this stuff is taught in like multiple organizations

557
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 3: similar to Scientologist.

558
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: Yes, it just took me down that whole pathway, which

559
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: then got me to this video or this this clip

560
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: that you play within the show of Louis throw with

561
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: Ross Jeffries at like a cafe or something. Can you

562
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 2: I know this is silly because I don't think we

563
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: can play it in this medium. But if you can

564
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: just explain, like just briefly, say what happened there between

565
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 2: that interaction and then what this guy, Ross Jeffries did

566
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: with NLP that was different.

567
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure, I love that sequence. This was a

568
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 5: clip from Louis Thuru's former show on the BBC Weird Weekends,

569
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 5: and he did an episode around hypnosis. He looked at

570
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 5: a few different applications of hypnosis, but the one we

571
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 5: focused on for our purposes was his work with notorious

572
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 5: pickup artist Ross Jeffries, the so called dog father of

573
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 5: the up artistry movement. And for your younger listeners, pick

574
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 5: up artistry was kind of a big deal in the

575
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 5: nineties and early two thousands. And there's this book The

576
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 5: Game by Neil Strauss, this journalist who embedded with Jeffreys

577
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 5: and a bunch of other pickup artists to learn how

578
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 5: to get women into bed using these kind of scripted

579
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 5: verbal patterns and other techniques. So Ross Jeffries basically learn

580
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 5: everything he knew from Richard Bandler. He went to go

581
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 5: train with him sometime after the murder trial, sometime around

582
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 5: the murder trial, and he's a little shaky on the

583
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 5: dates but basically he learned how to hypnotically persuade women

584
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 5: to sleep with him. That's his claim, And Alison, I

585
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 5: have a lot of theories on pickup artistry and could

586
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 5: unload with some of those. There's a lot to say

587
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 5: about it. But I went to San Diego to interview

588
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 5: Ross Jeffries. That's where he lives. And in the clip,

589
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 5: Ross goes to this cafe and Marina del Rey he

590
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 5: was living in Los Angeles at the time, and he

591
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 5: demonstrates how pickup artists can supposedly talk anyonoman to sleeping

592
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 5: with them, or at least going on a day with them,

593
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 5: and it's pretty crazy to watch. I recommend everyone check

594
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 5: this out. He goes up to this woman. She's sitting

595
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 5: at a cafe with a friend. She's smoking a cigarette,

596
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 5: she's having a coffee. She has this kind of nineties

597
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 5: Meg Ryan style haircut, and he sits at the table

598
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 5: next to her. He doesn't come on super strong, like

599
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 5: hey baby, you know. He sits down next to her

600
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 5: and he starts asking her to imagine these fantasy vacation spots.

601
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 5: He sort of gets her to start conjuring these positive images,

602
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 5: and as she does that, he begins running his finger

603
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 5: up her arm slowly, and then he does that later.

604
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 5: And this is an NLP hypnotic technique, calling yes exactly,

605
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 5: And so you can anchor an idea or an emotion

606
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 5: to a touch, a physical a physical sensation, a sound.

607
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 5: It's basically Pavlovs dogs for humans. You know, like instead

608
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 5: of hearing the balance salivating, this woman supposed to feel

609
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 5: that touch and then go back to thinking about, you know,

610
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 5: these extremely relaxing, sensuous vacation spots. So that's what happens

611
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 5: in that clip. I went to go talk to Ross

612
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 5: Jeffries in San Diego and he actually I was sort

613
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 5: of braced for this interview. You know, you've been leaving

614
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 5: me a lot of voice memos telling me he was

615
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 5: going to covertly hypnotize me during the interview. That didn't

616
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 5: exactly have it, Yeah, it was. It was really weird.

617
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 5: He also showed up to the interview wearing this like

618
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 5: purple jacket over a purple shirt. It was like, which

619
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 5: felt to me like a kind of hypnosis deep cut

620
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 5: because various purple yeah, yeah, yeah. And he actually ended

621
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 5: up being one of I think are more lucid sources

622
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 5: sort of breaking down some of these hypnotic techniques and

623
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 5: how they're supposed to work. So that's one of my

624
00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 5: favorite episodes. I love the pick up Artist.

625
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 3: Let's stay on hypnosis here for a moment, Zoe, How

626
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 3: would you define hypnosis and why is it considered so

627
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: controversial in some circles? Is it because of the sometimes

628
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 3: extravagant claims that hypnotists make, or is it because of

629
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: misconceptions like what is the what is hypnosis to you?

630
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 6: And is it itself considered pseudoscience by some you know,

631
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 6: in the psychological community and the psychology community.

632
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 5: Well, I would shy away from defining hypnosis only because

633
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 5: medical experts have failed out this task. I mean, that's

634
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 5: one of the fascinating things about hypnosis, Like even among

635
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 5: hypnotherapists who use it, who study it, who research it,

636
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 5: there's no single agreed upon definition of what it means

637
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 5: to slip into a hypnotic trance, to be hypnotized. And

638
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 5: that's partly because different things can happen when you've been hypnotized.

639
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 5: You know, if you're prompted to visualize something, you know

640
00:35:58,239 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 5: a different part of your brain is going to light

641
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 5: up an EKG. Then you know, if you're imagining pain

642
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 5: or the absence of pain, and so it's just really

643
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 5: tricky to study because you know, brains are weird and

644
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 5: the mind doesn't really But I wouldn't say it's regarded

645
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 5: as a pseudoscience by anyone in the medical community. I

646
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 5: mean there's tons of research surrounding its impact on subjective

647
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 5: experiences of pain, for instance. So yeah, yeah, yeah, So

648
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 5: you know, it doesn't work for everyone to the same degree.

649
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 5: I mean, some people aren't going to get a lot

650
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 5: out of it, but for the people who are hypnotizable, yeah,

651
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 5: it can show pretty dramatic reductions in pain relief in

652
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 5: situations like childbirth. It's also use for anxiety. You know,

653
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 5: there are people who have, you know, phobias of going

654
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 5: to the dentists. So there's actually this whole like pro

655
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 5: hypnosis dentistry community. But yeah, hypnosis is totally bonkers. Like

656
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 5: I read this one experiment where I'm not sure if

657
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 5: you've ever come across this other experiment. This might be

658
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 5: too clunky to explain, but basically it's where like the

659
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 5: words of different colors are printed in colors. Yes course, yeah, right, Okay,

660
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 5: you know this there's a name for us about escaping

661
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 5: me right now. But so it's like, you know, you'll

662
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 5: see the word blue but it's printed in red. You'll

663
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 5: see the word green but it's printed yellow. Hypnosis and

664
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 5: it's supposed to be really hard to read like it,

665
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 5: and it reveals, you know, how our brains like kind

666
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 5: of go on fritz trying to do that. Well, they

667
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 5: had hypnotized people do it, and they just had no

668
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 5: stumbling blocks whatsoever. They're just like, oh, red, green, blue, yellow, bluh.

669
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 3: You know it was fine, Zoe. I cheated just a bit.

670
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 3: I believe we're talking about the stroop effect.

671
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 5: There we go.

672
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 3: Yes, that's the why, because it was right on the

673
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 3: tip of my tongue. It does you know the stroop

674
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 3: waffle effect right now, I'm going to remember.

675
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 5: It as the waffle effect green.

676
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

677
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 3: I do want to share one story that'll that is

678
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 3: a bit of a walk, but I promise it'll it'll

679
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 3: lead us to something, uh that is mission critical for

680
00:37:58,680 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 3: a lot of our audience.

681
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 5: I had, well, Francine Shapiro discovered EMDR on a walk.

682
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 5: So who knows where this is going to be the

683
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 5: next week trauma therapy.

684
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 3: Everybody, close your eyes, look up, roll your eyes up

685
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 3: and put yourself in a walking situation by a beach.

686
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 3: So here we go. I had, I had done a

687
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 3: lot of research previously on different allegations of things like

688
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 3: the Satanic panic, right, or child abuse rings or UFO

689
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 3: UAP encounters and abductions. You alluded to this just a

690
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 3: moment ago, and I don't want us to lose it.

691
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 3: What I kept finding over and over again is that

692
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 3: for many years a form of hypnosis, a genre of

693
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 3: hypnosis called regression therapy, was treated often as concrete evidence

694
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 3: in these experiences or these stories. Could you tell us

695
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 3: your take on this memory regression, memory recovery stuff and

696
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 3: why it is considered so controversial.

697
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, one hundred. I actually have a pretty personal stake

698
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 5: in this as someone who tried it for my personal lives.

699
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 5: So yeah, hypnosis from memory recovery is one of, if

700
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 5: not the most controversial application of hypnosis. You mentioned the

701
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 5: Satanic panic. Basically, this one woman who was working with

702
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 5: her psychiatrist who later became her husband, through hundreds of

703
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 5: hypnotic sessions, recovered memories of being abused by a Satanic

704
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 5: cult as a young child, and despite the fact that

705
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,479
Speaker 5: her siblings her family were like, what are you talking

706
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 5: about that did not happen. She quote unquote recovered memories

707
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 5: of watching them, you know, sacrifice babies and turn them

708
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 5: into you know, ash smoothies. I mean it was really

709
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 5: specific and disgusting, and she you know, described murders, She

710
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 5: described all these really serious crimes. And so instead of

711
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 5: making people you know, shy away from this, it sparked

712
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 5: this huge boom where suddenly there were tons of copycat imitators,

713
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 5: people you know, recovering memories of satanic abuse through hypnosis.

714
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 5: So people went to jail, you know, people were ostracized

715
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 5: from their communities, you know, school teachers who were accused

716
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 5: of you know, kidnapping children. It was really awful and

717
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 5: gave hypnosis a bad name in these contacts, and it

718
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 5: also inspired a bunch of research.

719
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 6: That is all discussed in the incredible podcast The Devil

720
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 6: you Know with Sarah Marshall, who we also had on

721
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 6: the podcast not terribly long ago from the CBC.

722
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 4: So if you're interested in digging more.

723
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 6: Into that, check out that podcast and maybe go back

724
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 6: and listen to the interview.

725
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 4: Just talking to folks out there in Netflix Land.

726
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're talking to me too. I missed that episode,

727
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 5: but great one. Yes, Elizabeth Loftus is this oneble talk

728
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 5: about that memory researcher. Okay, so she comes up in

729
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 5: that All right, great, well I really want to watch

730
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 5: it now. I'm kind of flow key obsessed with her.

731
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 5: But basically she studies memory and she she actually had

732
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 5: an experience, despite being a memory researcher, where some family

733
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 5: members were a family member accident implanted this false memory

734
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 5: in her. Her mother drowned when she was a young child,

735
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 5: and I think her aunt found the body floating in

736
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 5: a swimming pool. But she was talking to this relative

737
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 5: as an adult and the relative was like, oh, yeah,

738
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 5: you know when you found your mom's body, and she

739
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 5: was like, what, No, that was my own. They're like, no, no,

740
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 5: I think you found her. And then she found over

741
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 5: the subsequent days that she was sort of having these images,

742
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 5: you know, the hair swirling in the swimming pool. And

743
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 5: eventually the relative got in touch and was like, oh,

744
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 5: I'm so sorry, I was mistaken, and she's like, geez, Louise,

745
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 5: you know, this Israeli potent. So she did a lot

746
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 5: of the pioneering research on deliberately installing fake memories in

747
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 5: experimental participants, and it's really not that hard to do,

748
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 5: is what she demonstrated.

749
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 6: So I kind of part of the plot of Shutter Island,

750
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 6: the Scorsese movie. There's a big plot line and that

751
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 6: that's very similar to what you just described.

752
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 4: No spoilers, but that's it.

753
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 3: And you said you have a personal steak in this

754
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 3: to the degree that you were come for bo Zoe,

755
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 3: would you mind sharing a little bit about your first

756
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 3: hand experience with the technic?

757
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 5: I should be comfortable sharing it because it's sort of

758
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 5: episode three in the podcast. Right before that episode aired,

759
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 5: I was like, what the fuck was I thinking? Like this?

760
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 5: So this is so personal. I never do things this

761
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 5: personal in the context of my reporting. But yes, I

762
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 5: made myself a guinea pig for the sake of mind

763
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 5: games and worked with a hypnotherapist on recovering memories of

764
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 5: my father, who died when I was six of lung cancer,

765
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 5: and throughout my whole life. It's kind of amazing, Like

766
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 5: when I go to a cocktail party I don't know

767
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 5: and it comes up that my dad's dead, people are

768
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 5: always like, oh, wow, how old are you among six?

769
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 5: And they say, wow, that's really young. How much do

770
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 5: you remember about him, and like, oh, I get why

771
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 5: they're you know, I get why they're curious, but it's like, oh,

772
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 5: you kind of just asked like the like staking my

773
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 5: hard question, you know, at this cocktail party. I don't

774
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 5: really know is the answer. I mean, I've definitely had

775
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 5: experiences where I think I have a memory of him,

776
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 5: like the quality of the light in the room, it

777
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 5: feels like a memory. And then all stumble upon a

778
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 5: photo in a childhood photo album and be like, oh,

779
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 5: I clearly constructed a memory around this photo that I

780
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 5: have seen before.

781
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 4: Shoot.

782
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 5: So you know, memory is really slippery. It's really hard

783
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 5: to know what's real and what's not it to begin with,

784
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 5: you know, even when you haven't you attempted hypnotic memory recovery.

785
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 5: But I went into work with this therapist with the

786
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 5: understanding that any memories we quote unquote recovered may or

787
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 5: may not be capital are real. Like, there's just no

788
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 5: way of knowing. And so she really Covey added that

789
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 5: she was like, look, I think this could still be productive.

790
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 5: That could still be a way to cultivate some sort

791
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 5: of posthumous intimacy with your dad. You didn't get to

792
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 5: spend a lot of time with him, and I was like, great,

793
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 5: let's give it a shot. I went into it extremely skeptically.

794
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 5: You know, it's not like I hadn't tried to think

795
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 5: about my dead dad before. But you know, if you

796
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 5: just sort of sit down in your chair, let's come

797
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 5: up with some memories. You know, they're not forthcoming, or

798
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:04,919
Speaker 5: at least they haven't been for me over the course

799
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 5: of my entire life. And then I tried this with

800
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 5: her and it was extremely moving. It was really profound

801
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 5: and surprising. Like I'm a pretty visual person, so I

802
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 5: expected like images, even just fleeting moments, and instead what

803
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 5: I got were these physical sensations, like the heat of

804
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 5: his touch and like his voice, you know, not coming

805
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 5: from over there, but like the way a voice vibrates

806
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 5: through someone's chest when you are being held by them.

807
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 5: I mean, it was just intense. I was like crying.

808
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 5: I couldn't even like talk to my partner about it

809
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 5: for weeks or anyone. I was just like really processing.

810
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 5: So we did a few sessions and yeah, you know,

811
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 5: if you're curious, if anyone listening is curious about trying

812
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 5: this kind of work, I do personally recommend it, but

813
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 5: just really going into it with that understanding that like

814
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 5: you can't know if they're real or not, which didn't

815
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 5: bother me because I don't know whether I'm real. Memories

816
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 5: are real, so whatever wasn't in.

817
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 4: That context, it makes so much sense.

818
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 6: How could you can gain insight from it but then

819
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 6: using it in court proceedings for example, or you know,

820
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 6: as a way of you know, accusing someone of a crime.

821
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,399
Speaker 4: That makes a whole lot less sense. And that's sort

822
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 4: of the point.

823
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 5: Right, yes, exactly, And like, you know, what I did

824
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 5: get were these like lovely sense memories but pretty nonspecific,

825
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 5: like being hell, you know, maybe like you know, I

826
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 5: kind of remembered the setting, but I wouldn't be able

827
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 5: to say, like, on July fifth, my dad he'll be

828
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 5: you know, like this holds up and yeah, and you know,

829
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 5: like my hypnotist was also pretty careful to check whether

830
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 5: I was going looking for trauma, because she was. I

831
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 5: don't think she would have worked with me if that

832
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 5: had been the case, but it was like no, no,

833
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 5: no trauma. Aside from the dad dying part.

834
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 3: CAT appreciate the caveat as well that that your therapist

835
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,280
Speaker 3: proposed and was very clear with that at the beginning,

836
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 3: So it sounds like what we're saying here is Zoe,

837
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 3: is that even though we cannot one hundred percent verify

838
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 3: whether a memory is quote unquote real or created, it

839
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 3: still lends some some sort of helpful outcome, right, some

840
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 3: sort of breakthrough. Is that fair to say?

841
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's an hundred percent fair to say.

842
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 2: Hypnosis is so striking to me because of it the

843
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 2: intensity of one on one focused attention, which I feel

844
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 2: like is one of the major keys to a hypnosis

845
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 2: session or being taken under hypnosis. There is a human

846
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 2: being with you, generally, and they are talking to you,

847
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 2: They are making eye contact with you, they are talking

848
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 2: and very you know, the patterns that you've described in

849
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 2: the show. I feel like that is such the key

850
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 2: to it. When we're we walk around most of the

851
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: time with our phones in our faces, you know, unable

852
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 2: to pay real, true attention to many of the things

853
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: happening around us. And I wonder how often those hypnosis

854
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 2: techniques can be weaponized against us and we would be

855
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 2: wholly unaware, think very easily.

856
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 5: I mean, if you've ever watched TV like that, has

857
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 5: al underd person appened to you. But I mean the

858
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 5: thing is you don't have to make eye contact with

859
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 5: someone to hypnotize them. You don't have to be in

860
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 5: the same room with them. Caz, my hypnotist, was in

861
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 5: London and I you know, we met through zoom. There

862
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 5: are also crazy stories about people just listening to hypnotic

863
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 5: tapes and having pretty behavior mind altering stories like I'm

864
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 5: not sure if you like dug into the God what

865
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 5: were they called the Bunny the Bunny sex tapes? Like

866
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 5: they oh there, oh yeah, you guys know about this,

867
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 5: Like right, so these people were sort of inducted into

868
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 5: this one man's sexual orbit. He had them listen to

869
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 5: these hypnotic tapes and they were, you know, willing to

870
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 5: do it. They were kind of into kinky stuff, but

871
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 5: they did not anticipate it basically completely transforming them and

872
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 5: being hypnotically forced into doing all the stuff. So yeah,

873
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 5: they were just listening to audio. So yes, it is

874
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:01,720
Speaker 5: easy to abuse.

875
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 3: And you, you and your co host have a thankfully

876
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 3: not that similar and experience as the Buddy tapes, but

877
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 3: you have you have an experience where you receive you

878
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 3: all receive hypnotic tapes. I think in the lead up

879
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 3: to a birth, a pregnancy, and listening through to those

880
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 3: tapes about I guess addressing concerns right which anybody would

881
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 3: have carrying a child. Could you talk a little bit

882
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,399
Speaker 3: about that experience, because it just hit me. Yeah, that's

883
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 3: another ten ten textbook example of listening to hypnotic cues

884
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 3: over and over again.

885
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

886
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 5: I mean, neither of us smoke. If we did, we

887
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 5: would definitely have tried it for smoking cessation. But Alice

888
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 5: was pregnant when we started making the podcast, and so

889
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 5: she bravely volunteered herself to try hypnobirthing to deal not

890
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 5: only with you know, pain during childbirth, but with with

891
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 5: anxiety leading up to it because you know, like a

892
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 5: lot of people, she was understandably freaked out about the

893
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 5: kind of violent experience that is childbirth. So what's crazy

894
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 5: about her time exploring this is that she did it

895
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 5: with Nancy Salsman. Nancy Salzman is the co founder of

896
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 5: the most notorious sex cult of this century NEXIM, and

897
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 5: what very few people know about Nancy is that she

898
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 5: was a hypnotist and an NLP practitioner before she founded

899
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 5: that organization. So we dig into her backstory on the

900
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 5: podcast and how hypnotic and NLP techniques found their way

901
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 5: into NEXM and were used against members, perhaps even against

902
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 5: Nancy herself. But Nancy made a hypno berthing tape for Alice.

903
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:47,720
Speaker 5: It was I think maybe five or ten minutes long,

904
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 5: and Alice listened to it repeatedly over the course of

905
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 5: her pregnancy. She did find it helpful. She didn't end

906
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 5: up using it during the birth itself because she ended

907
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 5: up going in for a scheduled see section for medical reasons,

908
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 5: so there was no pain to control hypnotically or otherwise.

909
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,320
Speaker 2: I see, Well, let's pause right here here from our sponsors,

910
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 2: and then we'll be right back to create some more

911
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 2: therapeutic change.

912
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 3: We've returned, we're out of our trans state and backa zooey.

913
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 3: What are the questions that we have to ask when

914
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 3: we're on a journey on a show like this is

915
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 3: what surprised you and your co host the most in

916
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 3: your discovery so far.

917
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 5: I think discovering that NLP isn't total hogwash was pretty

918
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 5: surprising for both of us. I mean we went into

919
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 5: it pretty skeptically. I mean, see for sentence on Wikipedia

920
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 5: this is a pseudoscience, and you know, we're just kind

921
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 5: of like what, you know, what is this thing. It

922
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 5: seems to attract really nefarious people, you know, people who

923
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 5: want to pull one over on unsuspecting victims, like what

924
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 5: could possibly be redemptive here? And as we began experimenting

925
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 5: with it, we actually found some of the techniques really

926
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 5: productive in our own lives, and just I think there

927
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 5: are aspects of NLP that both of us will continue using.

928
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 5: And as I did with the reporting, you know, I

929
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 5: was the one to interview a lot of people who

930
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 5: were involved in the early days of NLP, and so

931
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 5: many of them have hearts of gold and are just

932
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 5: lovely people and who really believe this is, you know,

933
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 5: the most powerful and potent technology, as many of them

934
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 5: referred to it, for improving the human condition, for helping

935
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 5: people become all that they can be, and overcoming these

936
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 5: hurdles that are very difficult to address in other ways.

937
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 5: And they just want to spread the good word, you know.

938
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 5: And I was kind of touched by their earnestness, which

939
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 5: sort of counterbalance some of the shadier applications of NLP.

940
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 4: So take away don't throw the baby out with the bath. One.

941
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 5: I don't throw the maybe out with the bath will hutter,

942
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 5: but definitely do your homework on the baby, make sure

943
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:05,919
Speaker 5: that baby is right for you.

944
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 3: Because and maybe don't automatically drink the bath water because

945
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 3: someone tells you it's good.

946
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I regret.

947
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 5: Throw out the bath water. Yeah we're gonna let it

948
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 5: die or go down a drain, and I guess yeah there.

949
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 5: I would just advise anyone who's curious to try NLP

950
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 5: to maybe read some books before you sign up for

951
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 5: a really expensive seminar. You might not need a guru

952
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 5: to benefit from NLP. We certainly learn techniques on our

953
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 5: own and have gotten, as I said, a lot out

954
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 5: of them. So maybe maybe you know, do your homework

955
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 5: and know that not all NLP practitioners are created equally,

956
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 5: because like we were talking about earlier, Noel asked the

957
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 5: question about oversight. I mean, there's just no quality control.

958
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 5: Anyone can say they're an NLP practitioner if they coughed

959
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,839
Speaker 5: up the cash or aster an LP practitioner, which meets

960
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 5: you coughed up even more gosh, and you know, spend

961
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 5: somewhat more time doing it.

962
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 3: But like you know, or you just see confidently just

963
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 3: say yeah, I'm an LP qualified person with my just

964
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 3: out at my posture nice.

965
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: Exactly after you though, there's something you mentioned right towards

966
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: the end of the show where you're talking about oh

967
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 2: gosh and the Tony Robbins of it all and the

968
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 2: self help versions of this, where you're where NLP is

969
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,879
Speaker 2: being used for sales, and you know you're taking these

970
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 2: classes by gurus. Where in that time, I believe it's

971
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 2: in the late seventies early nineteen eighties, you describe it

972
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 2: as a time of inflation in the United States, stagnant wages,

973
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 2: job losses, cuts to social welfare, extreme competition in the workforce,

974
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 2: a new social Darwinism that's arising in that time. And

975
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 2: I do wonder if we're not inside currently of another

976
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 2: one of those times, or entering into one of those,

977
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 2: you know, as things occur around us in society. I

978
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 2: do wonder if we should be on the lookout for

979
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 2: new versions of something like this that would come our

980
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 2: way that we might try and defend ourselves against, Like

981
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: don't fall prey to someone who's trying to sell us

982
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: this kind of guruism.

983
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 5: I think you're spot on. I think the entire self

984
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 5: help movement in the United States was born out of

985
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 5: these conditions you just described. The fact that, you know,

986
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 5: people were competing with one another as their jobs got

987
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 5: sent overseas. I mean suddenly you had to have an

988
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 5: edge to survive in the workplace, to get ahead, and

989
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 5: that really transformed workplace culture. And I think, yeah, as

990
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 5: we see what happens with AI, I mean, I think

991
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 5: it would be naive to think that's not going to

992
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 5: radically change the labor market, what work looks like in

993
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 5: the United States, and a lot of people are forecasting

994
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 5: widespread unemployment, and should that happen, there are definitely going

995
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 5: to be people who say they have the answer, who

996
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 5: say they can help you, you know, outshine your competitors,

997
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 5: or you know, you can train yourself not to sleep

998
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 5: so you can just do more. I mean, yeah, it

999
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 5: could take a lot of different forms, but I think

1000
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 5: you're righty, the.

1001
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 4: End times are a real opportunity period, you.

1002
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 6: Know, for sure, Just booming, take five seconds to just

1003
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,839
Speaker 6: talk about the AI connection, because Matt mentioned it at

1004
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 6: the top, about how the term is being more broadly

1005
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 6: applied to some of that language learning model type stuff,

1006
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 6: and I don't think we touched on it again, I'm

1007
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 6: just I'm curious personally.

1008
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, that's just kind of a coincidence that

1009
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 5: they happen to these two very different things happen to

1010
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 5: have the exact same acronym. I mean, it's certainly one

1011
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 5: of the reasons why NLP neuro linguistic programming has become

1012
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 5: difficult to research, because you start NLB and you get

1013
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 5: a whole lot of AI stuff, which is over my

1014
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 5: head for the most part. But yeah, I mean, there

1015
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,399
Speaker 5: are there are a certainly people working in the tech

1016
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 5: space who use NLP, and you know, startup culture surely

1017
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 5: incorporates aspects of that kind of NLP we were reporting on.

1018
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 5: But there's always been this kind of uneasy connection between

1019
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 5: NLP and Silicon Valley. Like Richard Bandler and John Grinder

1020
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 5: were early distributors of Apple computers that didn't mean a

1021
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 5: whole hell of a lot in the nineteen seventies. You

1022
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 5: basically just had to buy more than one or maybe

1023
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 5: it was four something. These are the garage days, right, Yeah, yeah,

1024
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 5: these are garage days, and they but you know, nonetheless,

1025
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 5: they they were attracted to this new technology, they bought it,

1026
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 5: and I think it's so interesting that you know, they

1027
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 5: were they were drawn to Apple because NLP is not

1028
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 5: so different in the sense that the central promise of

1029
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 5: NLP is that your brain is a computer. You've just

1030
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 5: never got the user manual, and they promised to take

1031
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 5: this really complicated, chaotic thing called the mind or the

1032
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 5: self and make it legible, make it easy to hack.

1033
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 5: And Apple computers correct me if I'm wrong. They're not

1034
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 5: inherently so much better than IBM computers or any other

1035
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 5: kind of computers, but they are way easier to use

1036
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 5: if you are not a tech savvy person. So they

1037
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 5: kind of nail the intuitive design features that make them

1038
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:14,760
Speaker 5: so popular.

1039
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:15,439
Speaker 3: Well.

1040
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 5: NLP appeals to a similar ethos, like, let's just simplify

1041
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 5: its streamline and let's give you the consumer the rings brilliant.

1042
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 3: Oh so well done. That connection. That absolutely nails it.

1043
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 3: We've got just a couple more follow up questions. There's

1044
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 3: so much more we want to get to, folks. Please

1045
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 3: do check out mind Games available now wherever you find

1046
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:42,919
Speaker 3: your favorite shows. Early on in the show, you all

1047
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 3: have a quotation that really stood out to me and

1048
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 3: I kept revisiting it. It is quote, all communication is

1049
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 3: a form of manipulation. And I'm sure a lot of

1050
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 3: people have already asked you to unpack what we mean

1051
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 3: by that brilliant statement. But before we do that, here's

1052
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 3: what this means me think of And this is one

1053
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 3: of our last questions, Zoe, have you used n LP

1054
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 3: techniques on us during this interview?

1055
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 5: I wish I could say I deployed some masterful hypnotic strategy,

1056
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 5: but no, you guys are are fun to talk to,

1057
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 5: so it wasn't necessary. I reserve the right to hypnotize

1058
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 5: you if you.

1059
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 4: Mis behave, and I'm open to it.

1060
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 2: You know, did you notice the collection of blues and

1061
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 2: reds and our screens? All of us.

1062
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 5: Believe the same like purple growth liminal.

1063
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 3: We got a great deal on blue lights, is what

1064
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 3: it was.

1065
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 5: They're all really into plants like and ask monsterra just

1066
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 5: off screen.

1067
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 2: I brought drums, but I didn't have a knife, so

1068
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 2: I brought a hatchet. The drummer with the knives the episode.

1069
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 4: This is the only way we get window.

1070
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 3: What do we hope our audience takes way from mind games?

1071
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 3: Like after people listen through the show, what are some

1072
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 3: of the big learning opportunities there?

1073
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 4: For me?

1074
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 5: I think some of the main takeaways from the show

1075
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 5: are to be a little suspicious of the sort of

1076
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 5: guruism that has pervaded so many aspects of our society.

1077
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 5: You know, we look at Richard Bandler and his influence,

1078
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,920
Speaker 5: but you can see this in all sorts of places,

1079
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 5: the promise of the quick fix, and the promise of

1080
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 5: techniques that purport to give you more agency and control

1081
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 5: over your own life, when in fact you may end

1082
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 5: up just spending more money surrendering your agency to someone

1083
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 5: else's ideas. I mean, there's this great George Garland that

1084
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 5: where he's riffing on self help. This is from the

1085
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 5: eighties or nineties, so he was really watching this industry

1086
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 5: boom around him, and he says something like, if you

1087
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 5: read a self help book, it's not self help, it's

1088
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 5: help you ask someone else for help. Like and anyway,

1089
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 5: I love that bit, and I do think it just

1090
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 5: kind of neatly encapsulates the dependency that's baked into a

1091
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 5: lot of these purported self help technologies, Like you know,

1092
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 5: it's it's a way of making people feel better sometimes

1093
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 5: about giving over the reins. I think it can also

1094
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 5: be productive to think about that dynamic in terms of

1095
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 5: like do we even want control over our own lives?

1096
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 5: I mean, we sort of tend to claim, like, yes,

1097
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 5: give me more agency. I just want more agency. Agency

1098
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 5: is such a buzzword. But do most people really want

1099
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 5: agency or I mean, or is it just this sort

1100
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 5: of thing where we think we want it and then

1101
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,120
Speaker 5: we kind of realize it's actually easier to just get

1102
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 5: through life if someone else is kind of telling us

1103
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 5: what to do, you know, what to eat, how to

1104
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 5: work out, how to you know whatever, make ourselves better

1105
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 5: and like better for what cause? So these are sort

1106
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 5: of the questions we tried to trojan Horse into the podcast.

1107
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 4: For Sometimes the agey comes from choosing who to listen to.

1108
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, definitely, And it's a product. I mean, it's

1109
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 5: just these people are selling something exactly. I mean, also,

1110
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 5: maybe you know, be on guard for mena cafes who

1111
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 5: creepily stroke the ladies.

1112
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 2: We often talk on this show about there being the

1113
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 2: smallest truth at the center of the craziest conspiracy theories.

1114
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 2: You might hear and that that truth, when you hear

1115
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 2: it spoken or you see it written somewhere, it might

1116
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 2: resonate with you. And then there's all this other, all

1117
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 2: these other details they get glommed on to that one

1118
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 2: truth that then becomes this big conspiracy, whether it's you know,

1119
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 2: everything from reptilian overlords, you know, controlling the world, to

1120
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 2: flat Earth to all these crazy theories that we've talked

1121
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 2: about on this show. At the heart of it, there's

1122
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 2: something about this feeling of not being in control that

1123
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 2: is so human to you know, to it on and

1124
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 2: on and on. But there is one thing that Richard

1125
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 2: Bamler says when you're when I think, is it you

1126
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 2: or Alice.

1127
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:07,200
Speaker 4: That talks to him?

1128
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 5: A goes really well.

1129
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 2: And when Alice is talking, we'll talk about that. But

1130
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: when Alice is talking to him, he says, if you

1131
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 2: change the way you think, it changes how you feel

1132
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 2: and therefore changes what you're capable of doing and not doing.

1133
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 2: And that kind of tiny little nugget, you know, at

1134
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 2: the heart of some of the NLP practices really does

1135
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 2: resonate with me and and it probably resonates with a

1136
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 2: lot of people.

1137
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 4: The power of positive thinking, right, I mean, to a degree.

1138
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 2: But that kind of thing allows you to build all

1139
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 2: this other junk around it that then, you know, becomes

1140
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 2: the vocabulary and becomes the techniques and the reason why

1141
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 2: you need this new book that has all the updated

1142
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 2: stuff in it to me at least.

1143
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:56,439
Speaker 6: But the nugget is something that any of us could

1144
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 6: have probably figured out on our own.

1145
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 4: Is that what you're saying, Matt's.

1146
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 3: Part of it?

1147
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of.

1148
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 3: And this goes to you know, this goes back to Zoe,

1149
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 3: your powerful point about agency and what people want to

1150
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:14,960
Speaker 3: think they want versus what sort of satiates them in

1151
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 3: their experience and their existence. This is a lot to

1152
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 3: ponder and we can't thank you enough, along with your

1153
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 3: co host Alice, for making this phenomenal show. We're not

1154
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 3: blowing rainbows, guys. This is worth checking out, Zoe. For

1155
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 3: anybody who wants to learn more of your work outside

1156
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 3: of mind Games, where can they find you?

1157
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:36,919
Speaker 5: That's so nice of you to ask? They can check

1158
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 5: out Zoe Lascaus dot com. It's just my first name,

1159
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 5: hard to spell, last name dot com. That's where I

1160
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 5: tend to plunk all my journalism. I write about art

1161
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 5: and science in various ways. I just filed a story

1162
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 5: for The Science Times about these endangered snails off the

1163
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 5: coast of Mexico, for instance, and this indigenous community that

1164
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 5: extracts purple dye from them. So you know, my interests range.

1165
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 5: It might be meteorites one day, snails the next. It

1166
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:07,439
Speaker 5: was certainly NLP for a while, and that I think

1167
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 5: will continue to preoccupy me. So yeah, I keep an

1168
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 5: eye out for bonus episodes, and yeah, check out mind

1169
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 5: Games wherever you get your podcasts.

1170
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 3: Nice. Also check out Paleo Art Visions of the Prehistoric Past.

1171
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 3: I believe a new edition just published last year.

1172
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 5: That's right, Yeah, thanks for the plug. Yeah, So this

1173
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 5: was my first book. It's about how humans have imagined

1174
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 5: the prehistoric world. So basically, if you were a scientist

1175
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 5: or a scientific artist in the nineteenth century and very

1176
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:38,320
Speaker 5: little was known about dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals, you

1177
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 5: might get handed a tooth and a femur and someone

1178
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 5: would say, what did this animal look like? And of

1179
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 5: course the results were wildly speculative, imaginative. They drew a

1180
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 5: lot from the tradition of drawing dragons and other monsters,

1181
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 5: and so this is a book about how that tradition

1182
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 5: evolved over time, from around the eighteen thirties to around

1183
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 5: the nineteen nineties. I was published by Tasha and yeah,

1184
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 5: there's a nice new edition.

1185
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 4: We love toash.

1186
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:07,919
Speaker 3: Nomenal, We love Tasha, and thank you again. Zoe. Again,

1187
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 3: mind Games is out wherever you find your favorite shows,

1188
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 3: and there you have it, folks, what a wild ride. Again,

1189
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 3: we are not being hyperbolic. This show Mind Games really

1190
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 3: blew our collective minds so much so that before we

1191
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 3: did this intro, guys, I had to walk out and

1192
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 3: get some mayor. I had to take off my jacket.

1193
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:34,120
Speaker 3: Now I'm just in a short sleeve shirt because it

1194
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 3: got so hot.

1195
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 4: E see was the opposite for me.

1196
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 6: It chilled me to my very core, and I had

1197
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 6: to put on a sweater, which I then subsequently removed

1198
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 6: because I didn't want to break the illusion that I

1199
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 6: was here from earlier.

1200
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 4: You went and done and Ben, so I fully support your.

1201
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 2: Move there, and I kept my clothes exactly the same.

1202
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 6: Matt actually has a continuity person there just to make

1203
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 6: sure all the full they take my rods, you know, metahuh.

1204
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 2: She's a very good to us, Yes, yeah, very loyal and.

1205
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:08,520
Speaker 3: A point dog American and on the point of continuity,

1206
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 3: you know, I feel like this was such an amazing

1207
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 3: compliment to our earlier episodes on things like inn LP

1208
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 3: on Nexium. It's related to so many things that we

1209
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 3: have talked about in the past, including weird experiments by

1210
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 3: Uncle Sam. So we would love to hear your thoughts. Folks,

1211
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:32,600
Speaker 3: have you experimented with hypnotism? Have you ever hypnotized someone

1212
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 3: or felt that someone has hypnotized you? What's your take

1213
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 3: on in LP? We would love to hear your thoughts

1214
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 3: and we can't wait for you to join us. You

1215
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 3: can find us on the lines. You can call us

1216
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 3: on a phone. You can always send us an email.

1217
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 4: Are you hypnotized right now?

1218
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 6: You can reach out to us at the handle conspiracy

1219
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:54,440
Speaker 6: stuff or conspiracy stuff show on your social media platform

1220
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 6: of choice.

1221
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 4: And there's another way to contact us if I'm not mistaken.

1222
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 2: Yes, you can call us. It's an opportunity to use

1223
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 2: your voice on us. Call one eight three three std WYTK.

1224
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 2: Why don't you go ahead and call that number? See

1225
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 2: if you can hypnotize us all of us. Woo wouldn't

1226
01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:16,560
Speaker 2: that be fun?

1227
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 4: Please do it? Please, I'm here for it. I will

1228
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:20,880
Speaker 4: come out and say that I am fully open to this.

1229
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 2: Me too, Ben you in no comment?

1230
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 4: Okay?

1231
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 2: You can also send us an email.

1232
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:31,360
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence

1233
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet out of raid sometimes

1234
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 3: the void writes back quick pro quo plarice. Give us

1235
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 3: a random fact and you will receive one in return.

1236
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 3: We can't wait to hang out here in the dark

1237
01:07:44,440 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 3: conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1238
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

1239
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1240
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.