1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This episode contains explicit language. In the fall of 2 00:00:24,956 --> 00:00:28,556 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four, the musician Randy Newman released an album 3 00:00:28,636 --> 00:00:31,756 Speaker 1: called Good Old Boys. The most beautiful song on the 4 00:00:31,796 --> 00:00:35,596 Speaker 1: record is the third song on the first side, Wait 5 00:00:35,636 --> 00:00:37,716 Speaker 1: Can I Prevail on? You did disteal a little bit 6 00:00:37,716 --> 00:00:40,756 Speaker 1: of Marie Sure So. I love that song so much. 7 00:00:41,116 --> 00:00:59,156 Speaker 2: We thank you very much. Look like a princess night 8 00:01:01,396 --> 00:01:03,236 Speaker 2: with your hair part of that. 9 00:01:04,756 --> 00:01:05,396 Speaker 3: I will know. 10 00:01:08,276 --> 00:01:11,396 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Well. You're listening to Revisionist History, 11 00:01:11,596 --> 00:01:16,676 Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 12 00:01:16,716 --> 00:01:19,516 Speaker 1: about Randy Newman's Good Old Boys, one of the most 13 00:01:19,556 --> 00:01:22,876 Speaker 1: remarkable albums of its era. I listened to it for 14 00:01:22,916 --> 00:01:25,876 Speaker 1: the first time years ago, but then I happened to 15 00:01:25,916 --> 00:01:28,916 Speaker 1: listen to it again very recently and realized that Good 16 00:01:28,916 --> 00:01:30,956 Speaker 1: Old Boys is not an album you can hear just 17 00:01:30,996 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 1: once and hope to do it justice, because it's not 18 00:01:34,516 --> 00:01:38,436 Speaker 1: just remarkable, it's unsettling. I don't think an album like 19 00:01:38,476 --> 00:01:40,996 Speaker 1: this could be made today, and by the end of 20 00:01:40,996 --> 00:01:45,676 Speaker 1: this episode, I suspect you'll agree with me. I decided 21 00:01:45,716 --> 00:01:49,196 Speaker 1: to go to California, sit down with Randy Newman, and 22 00:01:49,276 --> 00:01:52,716 Speaker 1: create a listener's guide to one of the most perplexing 23 00:01:52,756 --> 00:01:54,876 Speaker 1: works of music that I have ever encountered. 24 00:01:56,596 --> 00:02:04,476 Speaker 2: Drug Well, I've got to be a little bit. 25 00:02:06,556 --> 00:02:07,716 Speaker 4: What you mean me? 26 00:02:10,076 --> 00:02:15,116 Speaker 5: He lo you the first time, so you. 27 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:19,476 Speaker 2: Always love you. 28 00:02:23,476 --> 00:02:26,836 Speaker 1: Newman is in his seventies, still writing music, Tall and 29 00:02:26,876 --> 00:02:31,116 Speaker 1: slightly intimidating. He's Hollywood Royalty. His uncle, Alfred, was a 30 00:02:31,116 --> 00:02:34,996 Speaker 1: composer who was nominated for an Academy Award forty four times, 31 00:02:35,316 --> 00:02:38,476 Speaker 1: won nine times. Newman has had a second career writing 32 00:02:38,476 --> 00:02:40,996 Speaker 1: for the movies as well, like You've Got a Friend 33 00:02:41,036 --> 00:02:45,036 Speaker 1: in Me for Toy Story. Newman is unusual among songwriters 34 00:02:45,076 --> 00:02:48,156 Speaker 1: because he writes in character, and the narrator of Good 35 00:02:48,156 --> 00:02:51,836 Speaker 1: Old Boys is a creation of Newman's. He's called Johnny Cutler, 36 00:02:52,356 --> 00:02:56,676 Speaker 1: a steel worker from Birmingham, Alabama, thirty years old. The 37 00:02:56,716 --> 00:03:00,796 Speaker 1: song Marie is about Johnny Cutler coming home late after 38 00:03:00,836 --> 00:03:04,236 Speaker 1: a night out with the boys and gazing love struck 39 00:03:04,596 --> 00:03:05,636 Speaker 1: at his sleeping wife. 40 00:03:06,236 --> 00:03:12,876 Speaker 2: I like the idea very much about being inarticulate without 41 00:03:13,156 --> 00:03:16,116 Speaker 2: that's not the right word, in articulate, but being unable 42 00:03:16,956 --> 00:03:20,396 Speaker 2: to have the words unless you drink something. You know, 43 00:03:20,476 --> 00:03:23,036 Speaker 2: I can't say this to you and maybe to lack 44 00:03:23,916 --> 00:03:27,956 Speaker 2: the ability to say those kind of words. 45 00:03:28,156 --> 00:03:31,596 Speaker 1: But he's the fact that he has been drinking and 46 00:03:31,596 --> 00:03:34,436 Speaker 1: he and you realize he can only say what he's 47 00:03:34,436 --> 00:03:39,476 Speaker 1: saying because he's and because she's asleep. Yeah right, yeah, 48 00:03:39,516 --> 00:03:44,596 Speaker 1: but that even that makes me humanizes him and even 49 00:03:44,636 --> 00:03:47,116 Speaker 1: more I sort of feel so love her. 50 00:03:47,476 --> 00:03:51,556 Speaker 2: I mean, it would seem that that isn't drink, but 51 00:03:51,636 --> 00:03:56,116 Speaker 2: it might be. Is this a good guy? And my 52 00:03:56,236 --> 00:03:59,916 Speaker 2: answer to that is I don't know. I mean, I'm 53 00:03:59,956 --> 00:04:00,716 Speaker 2: suspicious of. 54 00:04:02,436 --> 00:04:02,516 Speaker 3: This. 55 00:04:02,836 --> 00:04:05,036 Speaker 2: I'm drunk right now, baby, but maybe when I'm awake, 56 00:04:05,076 --> 00:04:06,196 Speaker 2: I might knock this shit out of you. 57 00:04:06,316 --> 00:04:11,236 Speaker 1: Sometimes, Randy Newman wrote, Marie, he created Johnny Cutler. He 58 00:04:11,316 --> 00:04:13,876 Speaker 1: dreamt up a beautiful love song for him, but he 59 00:04:13,916 --> 00:04:16,996 Speaker 1: doesn't know if he understands him or even if he 60 00:04:17,156 --> 00:04:20,236 Speaker 1: likes him. As if Johnny Cutler came from his imagination 61 00:04:20,556 --> 00:04:24,076 Speaker 1: but is now somehow independent of it, it makes you 62 00:04:24,116 --> 00:04:26,236 Speaker 1: wonder who's in charge of this song. 63 00:04:28,596 --> 00:04:38,356 Speaker 4: Sometimes I'm crazy, but I guess you know, in a 64 00:04:38,636 --> 00:04:41,836 Speaker 4: week it all Liz. 65 00:04:43,036 --> 00:04:50,876 Speaker 5: And a hurt so and I never listen to the 66 00:04:51,156 --> 00:04:59,916 Speaker 5: world you say when you calmed me in trouble doll, 67 00:05:00,156 --> 00:05:08,276 Speaker 5: and I just try awake, but I love you, and 68 00:05:08,396 --> 00:05:20,796 Speaker 5: I love you the first time my sign. 69 00:05:15,996 --> 00:05:18,076 Speaker 4: And oh we love. 70 00:05:23,596 --> 00:05:26,716 Speaker 1: The story behind Good Old Boys begins with a man 71 00:05:26,796 --> 00:05:30,756 Speaker 1: named Lester Maddox. Maddox was governor of Georgia from nineteen 72 00:05:30,796 --> 00:05:34,676 Speaker 1: sixty seven to nineteen seventy one. Now he's mostly forgotten, 73 00:05:35,076 --> 00:05:36,996 Speaker 1: but in his day he was notorious. 74 00:05:37,396 --> 00:05:40,156 Speaker 6: I thank his full to act for real. I don't 75 00:05:40,196 --> 00:05:42,396 Speaker 6: look at myself as one of the very smart people, 76 00:05:42,996 --> 00:05:45,476 Speaker 6: so I try to act like Lester Maddox like inside 77 00:05:45,516 --> 00:05:47,036 Speaker 6: I feel and think and believe. 78 00:05:49,836 --> 00:05:52,876 Speaker 1: Maddox grew up in the Depression in Atlanta. His father 79 00:05:52,996 --> 00:05:53,796 Speaker 1: was an alcoholic. 80 00:05:54,196 --> 00:05:58,196 Speaker 6: My dad never made hardly any money. We times we 81 00:05:58,236 --> 00:06:00,156 Speaker 6: didn't even have a bathroom in the house. We had 82 00:06:00,156 --> 00:06:02,996 Speaker 6: four rooms in a path rather than four rooms in 83 00:06:02,996 --> 00:06:05,116 Speaker 6: a bathroom. We didn't have electricity. 84 00:06:05,356 --> 00:06:07,876 Speaker 1: Maddox dropped out of high school, got a job as 85 00:06:07,876 --> 00:06:11,396 Speaker 1: a steel worker to help his five younger siblings, married 86 00:06:11,436 --> 00:06:15,356 Speaker 1: his childhood sweetheart Virginia, and after the war he started 87 00:06:15,396 --> 00:06:18,756 Speaker 1: a diner near Georgia Tech. The house specialty was skillip 88 00:06:18,796 --> 00:06:21,956 Speaker 1: fried chicken. He called his place the Pickrick. 89 00:06:23,316 --> 00:06:25,956 Speaker 6: So I wanted to name no one else had. Now 90 00:06:25,996 --> 00:06:29,436 Speaker 6: I came on the name upon the name Pickwick, and 91 00:06:29,476 --> 00:06:31,996 Speaker 6: I found out it really wick doesn't meaning thing except 92 00:06:32,036 --> 00:06:34,556 Speaker 6: what you know it to be wick. That's what Webster 93 00:06:34,596 --> 00:06:38,076 Speaker 6: will even tell you that Wick and someone had already 94 00:06:38,156 --> 00:06:41,476 Speaker 6: used the name Pickwick in England, so I couldn't use that. 95 00:06:41,556 --> 00:06:43,436 Speaker 6: So it was about three o'clock one morning. I'd been 96 00:06:43,436 --> 00:06:44,556 Speaker 6: working on it for weeks. 97 00:06:44,956 --> 00:06:47,116 Speaker 1: Maddox was one of those people who you can't do 98 00:06:47,196 --> 00:06:50,156 Speaker 1: a cartoon version of because he already looks like a 99 00:06:50,196 --> 00:06:54,356 Speaker 1: cartoon version of himself. He's skinny, with an oversized head, 100 00:06:54,516 --> 00:06:58,396 Speaker 1: bald dome, black plastic glasses, always in a black suit, 101 00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:02,036 Speaker 1: moves with a kind of loose, slimmed floppiness, like a clown. 102 00:07:02,716 --> 00:07:05,756 Speaker 1: There are so many oral history interviews with Lester Maddox 103 00:07:05,796 --> 00:07:08,516 Speaker 1: floating around the State of Georgia that he must have 104 00:07:08,556 --> 00:07:11,636 Speaker 1: spent as many hours reminiscing about his time as governor 105 00:07:11,956 --> 00:07:15,396 Speaker 1: as he actually spent serving as governor. The man liked 106 00:07:15,396 --> 00:07:15,796 Speaker 1: to talk. 107 00:07:19,116 --> 00:07:21,796 Speaker 6: See the pick means to fastidiously, to pick out, to 108 00:07:21,876 --> 00:07:24,676 Speaker 6: choose a select, and rick means to pile up to 109 00:07:24,796 --> 00:07:28,196 Speaker 6: heap or damas. So I named my restaurant Pickrick and said, 110 00:07:28,196 --> 00:07:30,716 Speaker 6: if you'd picnic at the Pickrick and pick it out. 111 00:07:30,796 --> 00:07:33,796 Speaker 6: We would rick it up, and we would we did, 112 00:07:33,836 --> 00:07:36,236 Speaker 6: and that's why it was named Pickrick. I've never heard 113 00:07:36,276 --> 00:07:37,636 Speaker 6: anything else being named Pickrick. 114 00:07:38,116 --> 00:07:41,156 Speaker 1: Maddix advertised the Pickrick in the Saturday edition of the 115 00:07:41,196 --> 00:07:45,036 Speaker 1: Atlanta Journal in a column with the title Pickrick says. 116 00:07:45,676 --> 00:07:49,276 Speaker 1: Lots of one liners in Matoxisms, like the nineteen fifties 117 00:07:49,396 --> 00:07:50,516 Speaker 1: version of tweets well. 118 00:07:50,556 --> 00:07:54,596 Speaker 6: I talked about Christmas, I talked about marriage. I talked 119 00:07:54,596 --> 00:07:57,636 Speaker 6: about the monkey house at Grant Park. I talked about whether. 120 00:07:57,716 --> 00:08:00,356 Speaker 6: I talked about fishing in my edge. 121 00:08:01,076 --> 00:08:04,676 Speaker 1: But soon his column, Pickrick says becomes more and more 122 00:08:04,676 --> 00:08:08,556 Speaker 1: political because this is Atlanta in the mid nineteen fifties, 123 00:08:08,916 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 1: one of the birthplaces of the civil rights movement, and 124 00:08:11,716 --> 00:08:14,996 Speaker 1: Pickcrick is a ten minute drive from Auburn Avenue, where 125 00:08:14,996 --> 00:08:17,356 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King, and Andrew Young and Vernon Jordan and 126 00:08:17,356 --> 00:08:20,276 Speaker 1: everyone else are starting to stir things up and less 127 00:08:20,316 --> 00:08:24,276 Speaker 1: Dramattox is not at all happy with that. He's a segregationist. 128 00:08:24,756 --> 00:08:27,636 Speaker 1: And the more strident Maddox gets in his weekly ads, 129 00:08:27,996 --> 00:08:32,196 Speaker 1: the more popular Pickwrick says becomes. People start buying the 130 00:08:32,196 --> 00:08:34,876 Speaker 1: Atlanta Journal on Saturday just to read what Maddox is 131 00:08:34,956 --> 00:08:38,636 Speaker 1: up to. Maddox decides to run for mayor of Atlanta. 132 00:08:39,196 --> 00:08:43,316 Speaker 1: He is no organization, no money. He drives himself around 133 00:08:43,796 --> 00:08:46,596 Speaker 1: and he loses. But the race is closer than you'd think, 134 00:08:47,036 --> 00:08:50,036 Speaker 1: so he runs again and loses, and runs a third 135 00:08:50,076 --> 00:08:54,156 Speaker 1: time and loses. But then the wave of desegregation protests 136 00:08:54,276 --> 00:08:58,036 Speaker 1: hits Atlanta in the early nineteen sixties. The public schools 137 00:08:58,076 --> 00:09:02,156 Speaker 1: are integrated first, then the lunch counters than the restaurants, 138 00:09:02,876 --> 00:09:05,876 Speaker 1: and since the Pickcrick restaurant does not admit black people, 139 00:09:06,356 --> 00:09:08,796 Speaker 1: the civil rights protesters come knocking. 140 00:09:11,276 --> 00:09:15,396 Speaker 6: Well, the first time, I was about four wives and 141 00:09:15,436 --> 00:09:19,916 Speaker 6: tree blacks came in in Virginia and I were about 142 00:09:19,916 --> 00:09:22,916 Speaker 6: to eat our luncheon Saturday afternoon. They told me what 143 00:09:22,956 --> 00:09:24,396 Speaker 6: they're gonna do, and I told them, You're not gonna 144 00:09:24,436 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 6: do any such things. 145 00:09:25,596 --> 00:09:28,316 Speaker 1: What they were gonna do was eat a pickrick with 146 00:09:28,436 --> 00:09:30,276 Speaker 1: the television cameras as witness. 147 00:09:30,476 --> 00:09:32,476 Speaker 6: I said, you never been here before. You just wanna 148 00:09:32,796 --> 00:09:35,156 Speaker 6: fuss and fight. So I grabbed two of them. I 149 00:09:35,156 --> 00:09:37,836 Speaker 6: think on them was John Lewis or Brown or somebody, 150 00:09:38,516 --> 00:09:40,156 Speaker 6: and I just had him out the door. When they 151 00:09:40,156 --> 00:09:41,796 Speaker 6: happen to remember they were supposed to lay down on 152 00:09:41,796 --> 00:09:44,476 Speaker 6: the floor. If you hadn't thought about that, I'd had 153 00:09:44,516 --> 00:09:49,796 Speaker 6: them both out and they got on the floor because 154 00:09:49,796 --> 00:09:52,556 Speaker 6: I couldn't drag them. So I called my black employees. 155 00:09:53,396 --> 00:09:56,916 Speaker 6: I hat the kitchen and I said, these people trying 156 00:09:56,916 --> 00:09:58,836 Speaker 6: to destroy our business. They don't want to eat with us. 157 00:09:58,876 --> 00:10:00,756 Speaker 6: They just want to create a problem. They got the 158 00:10:00,756 --> 00:10:04,156 Speaker 6: television and radio and everyone with them, and I said, 159 00:10:04,196 --> 00:10:05,956 Speaker 6: I'm going to give you ten dollars for each one 160 00:10:05,996 --> 00:10:09,356 Speaker 6: of them threw out. In the next thirty second. 161 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:14,316 Speaker 1: Them Maddox's employees through them out, but the protesters came back. 162 00:10:14,836 --> 00:10:17,396 Speaker 1: This time Maddox met them at the door, with the 163 00:10:17,436 --> 00:10:20,596 Speaker 1: television cameras rolling and a crowd starting to gather. 164 00:10:24,516 --> 00:10:25,236 Speaker 6: India, now you want. 165 00:10:29,356 --> 00:10:32,116 Speaker 1: There's Maddox in front of the pickrick with his black 166 00:10:32,156 --> 00:10:36,716 Speaker 1: suit and bald head, protesters shouting cameras all around. He's 167 00:10:36,716 --> 00:10:37,236 Speaker 1: in heaven. 168 00:10:37,636 --> 00:10:40,796 Speaker 6: I'll use a channels, I'll use guns, I'll use pain, 169 00:10:40,916 --> 00:10:43,876 Speaker 6: I'll use my fist, I'll use my customers, I'll use 170 00:10:43,956 --> 00:10:47,716 Speaker 6: my employees, I'll use anything. It's mind as bold. This 171 00:10:47,916 --> 00:10:51,596 Speaker 6: property belongs to me, my wife and my children. 172 00:10:51,636 --> 00:10:53,316 Speaker 7: It doesn't belong to anybody. 173 00:10:52,836 --> 00:10:55,116 Speaker 2: Else, I'll throw out a white one or black one. 174 00:10:54,956 --> 00:10:57,156 Speaker 6: Or a red headed one, or ball when it doesn't 175 00:10:57,156 --> 00:10:57,916 Speaker 6: make any difference. 176 00:10:58,476 --> 00:11:01,676 Speaker 1: Maddox gets hauled into court because the Civil Rights Act 177 00:11:01,716 --> 00:11:04,476 Speaker 1: has been passed and what he's doing is illegal. He's 178 00:11:04,476 --> 00:11:08,236 Speaker 1: given a choice integrate or shut his doors, and he 179 00:11:08,316 --> 00:11:11,476 Speaker 1: decides to shut to Pickwrick, one of the most popular 180 00:11:11,476 --> 00:11:14,596 Speaker 1: and successful restaurants in Atlanta, the business that he has 181 00:11:14,596 --> 00:11:18,476 Speaker 1: spent his lifetime building that made him famous, and to 182 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:21,116 Speaker 1: every Southern er angry at the way the world is turning, 183 00:11:21,596 --> 00:11:24,876 Speaker 1: he becomes a hero. A friend says to him, you know, 184 00:11:25,596 --> 00:11:29,316 Speaker 1: maybe you should run for governor, and Maddox says, okay. 185 00:11:29,756 --> 00:11:35,236 Speaker 1: And in nineteen sixty six, he wins. A white nationalist 186 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:39,516 Speaker 1: in the hospitality business who came to public attention writing pithy, 187 00:11:39,636 --> 00:11:43,916 Speaker 1: politically charged statements in a widely read media forum, runs 188 00:11:43,916 --> 00:11:47,876 Speaker 1: against the political establishment and pulls off an upset victory. 189 00:11:48,236 --> 00:11:50,676 Speaker 1: And by the way, it's a very close race. Maddox 190 00:11:50,716 --> 00:11:53,156 Speaker 1: doesn't actually get as many votes as his opponent, but 191 00:11:53,236 --> 00:11:55,756 Speaker 1: he wins when the election is thrown to the legislature. 192 00:11:56,556 --> 00:11:58,996 Speaker 1: Oh and a huge part of Maddox's rhetoric is how 193 00:11:58,996 --> 00:12:02,796 Speaker 1: the media can't be trusted. He's constantly accusing newspapers of 194 00:12:02,876 --> 00:12:05,436 Speaker 1: lying about him. In fact, in the corner of his 195 00:12:05,516 --> 00:12:08,716 Speaker 1: official governor's portrait, there's a little table with a dead 196 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:12,156 Speaker 1: fish on it, wrapped in a copy of the Atlanta Journal. 197 00:12:13,196 --> 00:12:17,276 Speaker 1: A white nationalist in the hospitality business who wrote pithy 198 00:12:17,356 --> 00:12:21,356 Speaker 1: statements on a media platform, runs against the political establishment, 199 00:12:21,636 --> 00:12:24,676 Speaker 1: accuses the news media of running fake news about him, 200 00:12:24,916 --> 00:12:28,196 Speaker 1: doesn't get as many votes as his opponent, and nonetheless 201 00:12:28,236 --> 00:12:32,076 Speaker 1: stakes over the highest executive office. I mean, when has 202 00:12:32,156 --> 00:12:38,876 Speaker 1: that ever happen? Maddox serves four years, has to step 203 00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:42,276 Speaker 1: down because of term limits. Jimmy Carter takes over as 204 00:12:42,316 --> 00:12:45,756 Speaker 1: governor of Georgia, as the state, he might say, returns 205 00:12:45,796 --> 00:12:49,996 Speaker 1: to its senses, and Maddox consoles himself with running for 206 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:53,596 Speaker 1: and winning the job of lieutenant governor. He is well 207 00:12:53,636 --> 00:12:57,156 Speaker 1: on his way to obscurity. And then he gets a 208 00:12:57,156 --> 00:13:00,076 Speaker 1: call from New York from the Dick Cavot Show, the 209 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:03,676 Speaker 1: great late night talk show of the nineteen seventies. They 210 00:13:03,716 --> 00:13:14,396 Speaker 1: want him as a guest. That's when we return in America. 211 00:13:15,156 --> 00:13:17,116 Speaker 2: You get foody. 212 00:13:19,796 --> 00:13:23,876 Speaker 4: Won't have to run through the jungle and scuff up 213 00:13:23,916 --> 00:13:24,436 Speaker 4: your feet. 214 00:13:24,996 --> 00:13:28,316 Speaker 1: The first Randy Newman song I ever heard was sail Away. 215 00:13:28,356 --> 00:13:35,236 Speaker 8: You just sing about Jesus and drink wine all day. 216 00:13:35,276 --> 00:13:38,036 Speaker 2: It's great to be an American. 217 00:13:38,956 --> 00:13:41,316 Speaker 1: Sail Away is the title track of the album Randy 218 00:13:41,356 --> 00:13:44,156 Speaker 1: Newman made right before he wrote Good Old Boys. I 219 00:13:44,196 --> 00:13:46,196 Speaker 1: was a kid when I first heard it, and I 220 00:13:46,236 --> 00:13:48,916 Speaker 1: had the same experience I would later have with Newman's 221 00:13:48,956 --> 00:13:52,556 Speaker 1: other songs. I didn't get it at first. I'm not 222 00:13:52,636 --> 00:13:55,796 Speaker 1: sure I even paid attention to the words. I just 223 00:13:55,876 --> 00:13:57,116 Speaker 1: loved how grand it was. 224 00:13:59,716 --> 00:14:07,076 Speaker 8: Ain't no lie side of me, no mama snake, just 225 00:14:07,236 --> 00:14:10,196 Speaker 8: a sweet wall amelon the bug wheat. 226 00:14:14,156 --> 00:14:17,396 Speaker 9: Everybody is happy as make it be. 227 00:14:21,396 --> 00:14:23,436 Speaker 2: Climb a ball, little wog. 228 00:14:23,276 --> 00:14:24,356 Speaker 5: Stay the way within. 229 00:14:26,156 --> 00:14:28,196 Speaker 1: But then I got a little older, and as I 230 00:14:28,236 --> 00:14:32,796 Speaker 1: heard sail Away, I said, wait a minute. Everybody is 231 00:14:32,836 --> 00:14:37,716 Speaker 1: as happy as a man can be. Climb aboard little wog, 232 00:14:38,316 --> 00:14:43,076 Speaker 1: sail away with me. Wog really offensive British colonial slang 233 00:14:43,116 --> 00:14:46,356 Speaker 1: for someone who's not white. It's the N word. Basically, 234 00:14:46,916 --> 00:14:49,916 Speaker 1: I noticed some interesting story at behind sail Away. 235 00:14:50,196 --> 00:14:53,676 Speaker 2: The song, Oh it was a A guy was going 236 00:14:53,756 --> 00:14:56,556 Speaker 2: to make a movie and he was going to give 237 00:14:56,596 --> 00:15:01,476 Speaker 2: ten minutes to five or six pop people, Van Morrison, 238 00:15:01,636 --> 00:15:07,076 Speaker 2: I remember, and Hendrickson to do ten minute thing, and 239 00:15:07,156 --> 00:15:09,036 Speaker 2: I came up with this thing. It had a sort 240 00:15:09,036 --> 00:15:12,996 Speaker 2: of a sea shanny before it, you know, very irish 241 00:15:13,116 --> 00:15:16,996 Speaker 2: kind of yo hoo, you know there and then this 242 00:15:17,076 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 2: guy be standing in a clearing in the jungle and 243 00:15:21,716 --> 00:15:23,956 Speaker 2: singing this song, and that was what I was going 244 00:15:24,036 --> 00:15:25,156 Speaker 2: to do with my ten minutes. 245 00:15:25,996 --> 00:15:29,436 Speaker 1: Randy Newman wrote a song about an American slave trader 246 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 1: standing somewhere in West Africa giving his sales pitch to 247 00:15:33,836 --> 00:15:38,596 Speaker 1: potential recruits come to America. You're gonna love this little 248 00:15:38,596 --> 00:15:40,756 Speaker 1: cotton plantation that I've lined up for you. 249 00:15:42,036 --> 00:15:48,156 Speaker 2: Oh no, lion, no moms sleep. It's a sweet watermelon 250 00:15:48,236 --> 00:15:52,156 Speaker 2: and a book. So those laugh. 251 00:15:52,676 --> 00:15:57,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, the character is so kind of outrageous. Yeah, but 252 00:15:57,556 --> 00:16:00,236 Speaker 1: we're not laughing along with him. We're horrified by him. 253 00:16:00,236 --> 00:16:03,156 Speaker 2: I mean it's yeah, but people laugh at that in 254 00:16:03,196 --> 00:16:08,796 Speaker 2: a nervous way, at the watermelon joke, and sit around 255 00:16:08,796 --> 00:16:10,956 Speaker 2: to think about Jesus drink wine all day. 256 00:16:11,556 --> 00:16:13,316 Speaker 1: Now, there's a way to do that song so that 257 00:16:13,356 --> 00:16:19,756 Speaker 1: it's not so shocking. In like the cover version done 258 00:16:19,836 --> 00:16:22,516 Speaker 1: later the same year by Bobby Darren who was one 259 00:16:22,516 --> 00:16:25,436 Speaker 1: of the biggest pop stars of the nineteen sixties, won't 260 00:16:25,556 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 1: have the wrong through the jungle. 261 00:16:28,196 --> 00:16:31,996 Speaker 2: Bobby Darren is happy, Yeah, come to America, little one, 262 00:16:32,556 --> 00:16:34,916 Speaker 2: when we get rid of the wog. Oh my god. 263 00:16:36,516 --> 00:16:41,636 Speaker 1: But no, that's that's like blasphemy. I'm a born Little 264 00:16:41,716 --> 00:16:42,876 Speaker 1: one sail. 265 00:16:42,596 --> 00:16:43,796 Speaker 2: Away with me. 266 00:16:45,076 --> 00:16:48,956 Speaker 1: In Bobby Darren's version, the line climb a board, little 267 00:16:49,076 --> 00:16:52,876 Speaker 1: Wog sail away with me, which is crucial in establishing 268 00:16:52,876 --> 00:16:57,476 Speaker 1: how vile the narrator is, becomes climber board, little one 269 00:16:57,956 --> 00:17:00,156 Speaker 1: sail away with me. I'm sorry, I can't get I 270 00:17:00,156 --> 00:17:03,516 Speaker 1: can't get pass it so quickly. That's unbelievable that. 271 00:17:03,556 --> 00:17:04,556 Speaker 2: He did a happy version. 272 00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:07,516 Speaker 1: Yes, it's this, It isn't. 273 00:17:07,796 --> 00:17:09,516 Speaker 2: I mean, there's there it is. 274 00:17:09,716 --> 00:17:13,196 Speaker 1: The thing is Newman liked Bobby Darren. He knew him, 275 00:17:13,396 --> 00:17:16,156 Speaker 1: and he didn't know what to think. I mean, there 276 00:17:16,236 --> 00:17:20,476 Speaker 1: is a world of difference between wog and one. Also, 277 00:17:20,676 --> 00:17:25,036 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, Bobby Darren substitutes the words mamba 278 00:17:25,116 --> 00:17:30,316 Speaker 1: snake with mama snake eight no lions and tigers and 279 00:17:30,396 --> 00:17:31,996 Speaker 1: no nurturing mama snake. 280 00:17:32,516 --> 00:17:34,996 Speaker 2: You know, he was all, do I like to do that? 281 00:17:35,436 --> 00:17:38,396 Speaker 2: And it's like come to America, you know, become. 282 00:17:39,756 --> 00:17:41,796 Speaker 1: But this is this, this song is like this. 283 00:17:42,116 --> 00:17:43,316 Speaker 2: Is not a dumb guy either. 284 00:17:43,676 --> 00:17:46,716 Speaker 1: This is this song is like a It is a wallop. 285 00:17:46,796 --> 00:17:51,436 Speaker 1: It is emotional wallop. He searing song about this the 286 00:17:51,516 --> 00:17:53,356 Speaker 1: darkest moment in America's past. 287 00:17:53,356 --> 00:17:59,076 Speaker 2: It's a jaw dress like springtime for Hitler, a little one, 288 00:18:00,036 --> 00:18:02,676 Speaker 2: little wall like come away with me. You know, he 289 00:18:02,836 --> 00:18:08,676 Speaker 2: just was so right, his Shulvia's instincts couldn't restrain himself. 290 00:18:09,596 --> 00:18:11,476 Speaker 1: How did you feel when you first heard that version? 291 00:18:12,676 --> 00:18:16,236 Speaker 2: I felt, you know, oh, my Jesus Christ. And that 292 00:18:16,356 --> 00:18:16,596 Speaker 2: was it. 293 00:18:17,156 --> 00:18:19,956 Speaker 1: The original intention of sail Away was to make the 294 00:18:20,036 --> 00:18:25,756 Speaker 1: listener uncomfortable. Newman takes a familiar figure, a salesman, an entrepreneur, 295 00:18:25,956 --> 00:18:30,116 Speaker 1: a patriot, and gives him a rollicking sea shanty. But 296 00:18:30,236 --> 00:18:33,716 Speaker 1: then he forces you to acknowledge that underneath all that 297 00:18:34,436 --> 00:18:38,756 Speaker 1: there looks a monster. Bobby Darren chickened out. He couldn't 298 00:18:38,756 --> 00:18:41,556 Speaker 1: do it. He didn't want us to be uncomfortable, and 299 00:18:41,596 --> 00:18:46,116 Speaker 1: so Wog became one and sail Away became a glorified 300 00:18:46,236 --> 00:18:49,956 Speaker 1: nursery rhyme. I don't mean to single Bobby Darren out, 301 00:18:50,156 --> 00:18:52,236 Speaker 1: because I think that most of us take the easy 302 00:18:52,276 --> 00:18:56,236 Speaker 1: path in these situations too. But the particular genius of 303 00:18:56,316 --> 00:19:00,036 Speaker 1: Randy Newman is that he won't do that. He can't. 304 00:19:05,036 --> 00:19:06,036 Speaker 2: Dick have a troll. 305 00:19:08,436 --> 00:19:12,156 Speaker 1: So it's nineteen seventy. Lester Maddox gets a call from 306 00:19:12,156 --> 00:19:15,236 Speaker 1: Dick Caviot, come on our show. He flies to New 307 00:19:15,316 --> 00:19:20,396 Speaker 1: York and who tunes in that night Randy Newman, Ladies 308 00:19:20,436 --> 00:19:28,796 Speaker 1: and gentlemen, Dick Cabot. Dick Caviott is a year into 309 00:19:28,836 --> 00:19:32,396 Speaker 1: his legendary late night show on ABC, up against Johnny 310 00:19:32,396 --> 00:19:36,276 Speaker 1: Carson's Tonight show. Cavit show was like a highlight reel 311 00:19:36,316 --> 00:19:39,236 Speaker 1: of the nineteen seventies. He did the greatest ever interview 312 00:19:39,316 --> 00:19:42,876 Speaker 1: with Jimmy Hendrix. Groucho Marx was a regular, so was 313 00:19:42,956 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali. He once had Salvador Dally on the same 314 00:19:45,956 --> 00:19:49,796 Speaker 1: show as a legendary pitching great Satchel Page. The famous 315 00:19:49,796 --> 00:19:55,116 Speaker 1: debate between Gorvadal and Norman Mailer that was on Dick Caviot. Listen, 316 00:19:55,156 --> 00:19:55,556 Speaker 1: we have a. 317 00:19:55,556 --> 00:19:57,476 Speaker 7: Very good show tonight, and I want to move right 318 00:19:57,516 --> 00:20:00,836 Speaker 7: into it. Excellent show. I think I don't know, how 319 00:20:00,836 --> 00:20:02,116 Speaker 7: do I know? I haven't seen it. It might be a 320 00:20:02,156 --> 00:20:05,556 Speaker 7: big dead brow Why do people say that at the 321 00:20:05,596 --> 00:20:06,676 Speaker 7: beginning of his show. 322 00:20:06,836 --> 00:20:10,076 Speaker 1: Cavot looks like Paul Newman's baby brother, no more than 323 00:20:10,116 --> 00:20:14,356 Speaker 1: five or six, impish, big polka dotted tie. His first 324 00:20:14,396 --> 00:20:17,316 Speaker 1: guest is a woman named Alice Gray, an entomologist from 325 00:20:17,316 --> 00:20:21,236 Speaker 1: the American Museum of Natural History, cat eye, glasses, hair, 326 00:20:21,316 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 1: and a bun who brings a box full of cockroaches 327 00:20:24,356 --> 00:20:24,836 Speaker 1: to the set. 328 00:20:25,076 --> 00:20:26,796 Speaker 7: What can we do about then? What can we learn 329 00:20:26,836 --> 00:20:28,116 Speaker 7: about them? Are they our friends? 330 00:20:29,516 --> 00:20:32,436 Speaker 6: No, they're not exactly our friends, but there are certainly 331 00:20:32,476 --> 00:20:34,036 Speaker 6: our companions. 332 00:20:34,196 --> 00:20:34,916 Speaker 7: And all our. 333 00:20:36,876 --> 00:20:39,716 Speaker 1: All our doings, and I'm rather fond of them. 334 00:20:39,916 --> 00:20:41,356 Speaker 6: They have a distinguished linage. 335 00:20:41,876 --> 00:20:44,076 Speaker 8: How many of us could meet our ancestors of three 336 00:20:44,156 --> 00:20:47,076 Speaker 8: hundred million years ago and recognize them the cockroaches? 337 00:20:47,116 --> 00:20:48,716 Speaker 7: Can they go back that far? 338 00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:49,516 Speaker 1: They go back that far. 339 00:20:49,916 --> 00:20:51,636 Speaker 7: It's older than the dinosaurs. 340 00:20:51,076 --> 00:20:53,076 Speaker 6: Twice as old as the dinosaurs. All the way back 341 00:20:53,116 --> 00:20:56,236 Speaker 6: to the coald Age, they were already recognizably cockroaches. 342 00:20:57,716 --> 00:21:00,076 Speaker 7: That's it's always the people who don't like We're the 343 00:21:00,156 --> 00:21:01,036 Speaker 7: last to leave, isn't it. 344 00:21:03,996 --> 00:21:06,076 Speaker 6: They'll be here long after we have quitted this earth. 345 00:21:06,116 --> 00:21:09,996 Speaker 1: I'm sure Cavit does a good ten minutes. I'm cockroaches 346 00:21:10,196 --> 00:21:10,516 Speaker 1: are these? 347 00:21:10,636 --> 00:21:12,276 Speaker 7: Your cockroaches are some of ours? 348 00:21:13,756 --> 00:21:16,036 Speaker 1: The cockroach lady finally leaves the stage. 349 00:21:16,836 --> 00:21:19,956 Speaker 7: And then my next guest tonight is Governor Lester Maddox. 350 00:21:23,276 --> 00:21:28,076 Speaker 1: How comes Maddox, the gleaming bald head, the black suit Governorm. 351 00:21:27,756 --> 00:21:30,716 Speaker 7: Maddics, I still call you, Governor, dont. 352 00:21:30,636 --> 00:21:32,396 Speaker 6: Call me mostly anything you won't do everybody else? 353 00:21:32,436 --> 00:21:32,636 Speaker 2: Does? 354 00:21:34,996 --> 00:21:36,476 Speaker 7: Have you ever followed bugs before? 355 00:21:37,276 --> 00:21:39,076 Speaker 6: Yes, a few moments ago on your problem. 356 00:21:39,436 --> 00:21:40,156 Speaker 7: That's the only time. 357 00:21:40,516 --> 00:21:44,156 Speaker 1: That's the only time. God, I love Dick Cavit. They 358 00:21:44,196 --> 00:21:48,316 Speaker 1: shake hands, they take their seats rust colored swivel loungers 359 00:21:48,316 --> 00:21:51,276 Speaker 1: atop a gray shag carpet. Kavit shows the audience a 360 00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:55,556 Speaker 1: photograph of Maddox holding his axe handle outside the Pickrick restaurant, 361 00:21:56,036 --> 00:21:59,596 Speaker 1: and Maddox then corrects him and says, no, it's not 362 00:21:59,636 --> 00:22:03,116 Speaker 1: an axe handle, it's a pickhandle, and goes off on 363 00:22:03,116 --> 00:22:06,156 Speaker 1: one of his long, endless digressions about the meaning of the. 364 00:22:06,116 --> 00:22:10,716 Speaker 6: Pickrick hard work. And we had in the restaurant some 365 00:22:10,796 --> 00:22:13,156 Speaker 6: of these pick candles, two cakes of them, by a 366 00:22:13,156 --> 00:22:15,996 Speaker 6: big old fireplace where we burned hickory wood, And there 367 00:22:15,996 --> 00:22:17,796 Speaker 6: were six of them in each of the cakes. And 368 00:22:17,836 --> 00:22:22,036 Speaker 6: they were dark red because that was the look something 369 00:22:22,076 --> 00:22:24,956 Speaker 6: similar to a chicken leg or pit. Candle does not 370 00:22:25,076 --> 00:22:27,636 Speaker 6: like the axe handle. It's the news me he talks about. 371 00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:32,156 Speaker 1: And Kaviot, who must be wondering what on earth, simply. 372 00:22:31,796 --> 00:22:33,796 Speaker 7: Says, well, I've certainly learned a lot. 373 00:22:36,156 --> 00:22:39,716 Speaker 1: Kaviot brings on his next guest, the football player Jim Brown, 374 00:22:39,996 --> 00:22:42,596 Speaker 1: then one of the most famous professional black athletes in 375 00:22:42,636 --> 00:22:46,196 Speaker 1: the country. Brown settles down next to Maddox, who is 376 00:22:46,236 --> 00:22:50,196 Speaker 1: literally half his size, and gives him a polite smile, 377 00:22:50,956 --> 00:22:53,476 Speaker 1: and Kavit says to the two of them, do you 378 00:22:53,476 --> 00:23:00,556 Speaker 1: feel separate but equal? I realized that's nineteen sixties civil 379 00:23:00,636 --> 00:23:04,356 Speaker 1: rights humor, but I still think it's hilarious. Maddox turns 380 00:23:04,356 --> 00:23:06,956 Speaker 1: to Brown and says, I thought you was the singer 381 00:23:07,716 --> 00:23:12,396 Speaker 1: he thought Jim Brown was James Brown. He then volunteers 382 00:23:12,396 --> 00:23:16,036 Speaker 1: his personal definition of what being a segregationist really means. 383 00:23:16,556 --> 00:23:19,076 Speaker 6: A segregation is a person that loves his race enough 384 00:23:19,236 --> 00:23:21,956 Speaker 6: or all the racers enough, has enough for racial pride 385 00:23:21,956 --> 00:23:24,836 Speaker 6: and integrity to want to preserve them. And I think 386 00:23:24,876 --> 00:23:26,836 Speaker 6: a racist is one that doesn't care enough for his 387 00:23:26,996 --> 00:23:29,396 Speaker 6: race or another race to where they would don't care 388 00:23:29,436 --> 00:23:31,396 Speaker 6: whether they are malcolmated or destroyed. 389 00:23:31,076 --> 00:23:38,956 Speaker 1: Or not amalgamated. Good lord, Now think about this for 390 00:23:38,996 --> 00:23:42,516 Speaker 1: a moment. Maddox is no longer governor Georgia has come 391 00:23:42,556 --> 00:23:45,836 Speaker 1: to its sinces an elected nice, safe, modern, non racist 392 00:23:45,876 --> 00:23:49,716 Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter. Maddox is a footnote. So what point is 393 00:23:49,756 --> 00:23:52,116 Speaker 1: there in having him on a mainstream talk show like 394 00:23:52,156 --> 00:23:55,356 Speaker 1: Dick Cavot. The magazine where I work, The New Yorker, 395 00:23:55,556 --> 00:23:59,116 Speaker 1: had a case like this recently. Donald Trump's Bengali Steve 396 00:23:59,156 --> 00:24:02,596 Speaker 1: Bannon was invited to speak at the magazine's annual literary festival, 397 00:24:03,076 --> 00:24:06,836 Speaker 1: and everyone flipped out. The New Yorkers writers took to Twitter. 398 00:24:07,076 --> 00:24:09,756 Speaker 1: A bunch of high profile celebrity in teas to the 399 00:24:09,756 --> 00:24:12,756 Speaker 1: festival dropped out. And the argument that was made about 400 00:24:12,796 --> 00:24:15,556 Speaker 1: Bennon is an argument that could as easily have been 401 00:24:15,596 --> 00:24:18,916 Speaker 1: applied to Maddox years ago. What's the point of giving 402 00:24:18,956 --> 00:24:23,716 Speaker 1: someone like that a platform? I mean, what could possibly 403 00:24:23,756 --> 00:24:28,836 Speaker 1: be learned from listening to them talk? And sure enough, 404 00:24:29,116 --> 00:24:31,156 Speaker 1: what happens over the course of the next hour of 405 00:24:31,196 --> 00:24:34,116 Speaker 1: the Dick Cavit Show exactly what you would think. 406 00:24:34,436 --> 00:24:36,676 Speaker 10: I think, what we're really talking about in this country's 407 00:24:36,676 --> 00:24:38,156 Speaker 10: economic development of black people. 408 00:24:38,236 --> 00:24:41,836 Speaker 1: At one point, Jim Brown says something thoughtful and reasonable 409 00:24:42,276 --> 00:24:44,996 Speaker 1: that he thinks the priority for black people ought to 410 00:24:44,996 --> 00:24:48,356 Speaker 1: be economic development, and Maddox jumps on. 411 00:24:48,356 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 6: Him economic development. 412 00:24:49,596 --> 00:24:55,836 Speaker 3: All people, Well, we're talking about I'll tell you what 413 00:24:56,596 --> 00:25:00,876 Speaker 3: I'll tell you everybody? Can I Can I give you 414 00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:02,076 Speaker 3: an answer? 415 00:25:03,116 --> 00:25:04,076 Speaker 2: Can I give you an answer? 416 00:25:04,956 --> 00:25:07,556 Speaker 6: Do you mind? I'll go ahead, be ready, I'll give 417 00:25:07,596 --> 00:25:08,076 Speaker 6: you fat. 418 00:25:09,396 --> 00:25:11,436 Speaker 10: What I'm really saying is that there are some people 419 00:25:11,436 --> 00:25:14,476 Speaker 10: that have suffered in this country, poor people generally. But 420 00:25:14,556 --> 00:25:16,716 Speaker 10: let's say that we have various ethnic groups in this 421 00:25:16,756 --> 00:25:19,476 Speaker 10: country that have attained a certain kind of equality. Black 422 00:25:19,516 --> 00:25:22,916 Speaker 10: people are more or less along with the Indians on 423 00:25:23,036 --> 00:25:25,116 Speaker 10: the last wrong of the ladder. Can I finish together? 424 00:25:25,836 --> 00:25:28,476 Speaker 10: Can I finish? I? 425 00:25:29,076 --> 00:25:29,636 Speaker 1: Do you mind? 426 00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:30,676 Speaker 2: Now? 427 00:25:30,716 --> 00:25:33,316 Speaker 10: What I'm really saying is that I feel that the 428 00:25:33,356 --> 00:25:35,796 Speaker 10: way to bring about equality of black people in the 429 00:25:35,876 --> 00:25:36,716 Speaker 10: system is three. 430 00:25:36,876 --> 00:25:37,636 Speaker 1: Quality white people. 431 00:25:37,636 --> 00:25:38,396 Speaker 6: Now I'm gonna interrupt. 432 00:25:38,396 --> 00:25:39,996 Speaker 1: You have time and black people. 433 00:25:41,636 --> 00:25:43,316 Speaker 3: If you interrupt me, I can't talk to you. 434 00:25:43,596 --> 00:25:46,356 Speaker 1: Then Maddox starts going on and on about all the 435 00:25:46,356 --> 00:25:48,956 Speaker 1: things he's done for black people in the State of Georgia, 436 00:25:49,476 --> 00:25:53,556 Speaker 1: and Jim Brown turns to him with genuine curiosity and 437 00:25:53,636 --> 00:25:57,636 Speaker 1: asks if he's had any blowback from white bigots the. 438 00:25:57,596 --> 00:26:01,196 Speaker 3: Bigots, have any problems with that from the white biggots 439 00:26:01,196 --> 00:26:01,956 Speaker 3: because you did so. 440 00:26:01,956 --> 00:26:02,796 Speaker 10: Much for the black man. 441 00:26:03,116 --> 00:26:06,156 Speaker 1: Which is kind of a great question, because if Maddox 442 00:26:06,196 --> 00:26:09,036 Speaker 1: has in fact been this great friend of black people, 443 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:12,196 Speaker 1: then you'd think he would have angered all the hard 444 00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:15,436 Speaker 1: core segregationists and everyone else who was opposed to the 445 00:26:15,476 --> 00:26:17,236 Speaker 1: civil rights movement. Right. 446 00:26:17,716 --> 00:26:20,156 Speaker 7: Mister Brown asked your Governor Maddix, if you'd had any 447 00:26:20,196 --> 00:26:22,876 Speaker 7: trouble from your white admirers for the fact that you 448 00:26:22,956 --> 00:26:25,676 Speaker 7: have said no, he said, biggots, Well, what did you 449 00:26:25,716 --> 00:26:25,996 Speaker 7: say it? 450 00:26:26,116 --> 00:26:26,836 Speaker 6: Like he's said. 451 00:26:28,516 --> 00:26:28,796 Speaker 9: You have? 452 00:26:29,516 --> 00:26:30,956 Speaker 6: Why didn't you say and I say that while I'm 453 00:26:30,956 --> 00:26:33,876 Speaker 6: talking about Dick, take words, push them around, and you 454 00:26:33,956 --> 00:26:36,076 Speaker 6: mislead the people in your audience, and all you ought 455 00:26:36,076 --> 00:26:38,596 Speaker 6: to start being honest, all of you with your words 456 00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:41,476 Speaker 6: and what you're saying to people. You said admirers, and 457 00:26:41,476 --> 00:26:43,196 Speaker 6: he said, biggats a lot of difference his name. 458 00:26:43,476 --> 00:26:46,196 Speaker 1: The last half of the show is just Maddox getting 459 00:26:46,236 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 1: more and more agitated, Dick Cavot trying to calm him down, 460 00:26:49,956 --> 00:26:52,476 Speaker 1: and Jim Brown looking over at Maddox like he's a 461 00:26:52,516 --> 00:26:58,436 Speaker 1: misbehaving child. Maddox asks Kavot to apologize. Kavot refuses. The 462 00:26:58,476 --> 00:27:02,036 Speaker 1: audience makes astonished noises. Maddox stands up and starts to 463 00:27:02,116 --> 00:27:05,436 Speaker 1: walk off the stage. Kavot says, come on, sit down. 464 00:27:05,676 --> 00:27:08,476 Speaker 1: Maddix says, I'll sit down when you apologize. 465 00:27:08,756 --> 00:27:12,116 Speaker 7: So it says, if I called any of your admirers 466 00:27:12,636 --> 00:27:16,476 Speaker 7: bigots who were not biggots, I apologize. 467 00:27:17,156 --> 00:27:20,636 Speaker 1: This is insane. What was Dick Cavot thinking inviting this 468 00:27:20,676 --> 00:27:21,316 Speaker 1: guy in a show? 469 00:27:21,596 --> 00:27:24,556 Speaker 6: Why don't you, Georgia have those friends of mine for 470 00:27:24,676 --> 00:27:28,916 Speaker 6: calling him biggots? I think I may lay down, Dick. 471 00:27:30,876 --> 00:27:34,836 Speaker 7: I wait a minute, Please don't laise, I'd like that 472 00:27:35,276 --> 00:27:36,636 Speaker 7: with Georgia. 473 00:27:37,356 --> 00:27:39,796 Speaker 6: And he also apology to the only biggest. 474 00:27:39,476 --> 00:27:41,036 Speaker 7: So I'm wait, oh wait, wait wait. 475 00:27:41,316 --> 00:27:44,716 Speaker 1: Maddox gives Cabot an ultimatum one minute to take it 476 00:27:44,796 --> 00:27:47,796 Speaker 1: back or he'll walk out for good, at which point 477 00:27:47,916 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 1: Jim Brown pipes up, Wait, what about me? How much 478 00:27:51,356 --> 00:27:53,596 Speaker 1: time do I have? It's a circus. 479 00:27:53,796 --> 00:27:55,716 Speaker 7: I would say that I phrased the question in a 480 00:27:55,716 --> 00:27:58,276 Speaker 7: way that was not exactly accurate, in the sense that 481 00:27:58,356 --> 00:28:02,716 Speaker 7: he did say biggots have any white bigots been upset 482 00:28:02,836 --> 00:28:04,876 Speaker 7: because you have done certain things about your. 483 00:28:04,876 --> 00:28:07,956 Speaker 6: Boy back and said my admirs. You haven't apologized yet, 484 00:28:07,956 --> 00:28:08,916 Speaker 6: and you got fifteen six. 485 00:28:11,436 --> 00:28:13,596 Speaker 7: All right, now, let me use those fifteen seconds. I 486 00:28:13,596 --> 00:28:17,676 Speaker 7: apologize for suggesting that a bigot would be the way 487 00:28:17,676 --> 00:28:23,156 Speaker 7: of characterizing all of your admirers. Wait a minute, Wait 488 00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:24,316 Speaker 7: a minute, there's more time. 489 00:28:26,636 --> 00:28:32,156 Speaker 1: And less dramatic storms off the set. Oh oh, and 490 00:28:32,196 --> 00:28:35,156 Speaker 1: I haven't even mentioned that the writer Truman Capodi then 491 00:28:35,196 --> 00:28:39,156 Speaker 1: shows up. He's then at the height of his celebrity, tiny, fastidious, 492 00:28:39,436 --> 00:28:42,036 Speaker 1: wearing purple tinted round sunglasses. 493 00:28:42,876 --> 00:28:43,116 Speaker 9: You know. 494 00:28:43,316 --> 00:28:47,356 Speaker 11: Curiously enough, I had a cousin who lived in Atlanta 495 00:28:47,436 --> 00:28:50,316 Speaker 11: that I went to visit and who took me to 496 00:28:50,396 --> 00:28:53,916 Speaker 11: this restaurant that he ran. It was called Picareb or 497 00:28:53,916 --> 00:29:00,876 Speaker 11: something like that, you know, well mar and he was 498 00:29:00,916 --> 00:29:03,116 Speaker 11: always at the door with guns, you know, to keep 499 00:29:03,156 --> 00:29:07,276 Speaker 11: any any food of negroes out of the restaurant. But 500 00:29:07,636 --> 00:29:10,076 Speaker 11: I went there with this cousin because he was near 501 00:29:10,116 --> 00:29:13,636 Speaker 11: the campus, the college campus. And he wasn't bad, but 502 00:29:13,716 --> 00:29:15,156 Speaker 11: it wasn't finger lick him good. 503 00:29:21,596 --> 00:29:24,396 Speaker 1: The whole thing is so Banana's the Cavit feels the 504 00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:26,196 Speaker 1: need to apologize to his audience. 505 00:29:26,876 --> 00:29:29,396 Speaker 7: I'm sorry the governor has left. I went outside just 506 00:29:29,476 --> 00:29:31,396 Speaker 7: during the break and he's out there with his hat 507 00:29:31,436 --> 00:29:32,836 Speaker 7: and coat on, and asked him if he would please 508 00:29:32,836 --> 00:29:34,716 Speaker 7: come back and use the last minutes to say whatever 509 00:29:34,756 --> 00:29:38,756 Speaker 7: he I would like to say, because he felt that 510 00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:42,676 Speaker 7: I guess that he was insulted. I did not mean 511 00:29:42,756 --> 00:29:45,196 Speaker 7: to insult him at that moment. I have to say this, 512 00:29:45,236 --> 00:29:47,316 Speaker 7: and I hope I don't feel it doesn't come off 513 00:29:47,636 --> 00:29:51,356 Speaker 7: sounding I don't know what, but I found him in 514 00:29:51,396 --> 00:29:54,956 Speaker 7: spite of the fact that I would probably despise his 515 00:29:54,996 --> 00:29:59,116 Speaker 7: feelings about segregation if I were actually clear and what 516 00:29:59,276 --> 00:30:03,596 Speaker 7: they are a likable man. Would anyone go along with this? 517 00:30:04,116 --> 00:30:04,956 Speaker 2: Would you agree? 518 00:30:05,636 --> 00:30:07,116 Speaker 1: The audience is not having it? 519 00:30:07,396 --> 00:30:11,876 Speaker 7: Why is it what? I'm not backing down. Shut up, 520 00:30:11,876 --> 00:30:13,116 Speaker 7: I'll tell you what. I'm backing down. 521 00:30:13,516 --> 00:30:14,476 Speaker 2: We'll be back after this. 522 00:30:17,276 --> 00:30:20,316 Speaker 1: It was a farce. What was the point except to 523 00:30:20,356 --> 00:30:23,436 Speaker 1: allow a segregationist to play the victim. What good is 524 00:30:23,516 --> 00:30:27,476 Speaker 1: there in getting someone like that a platform? Except Randy 525 00:30:27,556 --> 00:30:31,076 Speaker 1: Newman was watching whose imagination has a mind of its own? 526 00:30:35,676 --> 00:30:38,876 Speaker 1: So were you a regular Dick Cavot watcher in those years? 527 00:30:39,556 --> 00:30:43,996 Speaker 2: Not that I recall I was, but I would watch 528 00:30:44,036 --> 00:30:45,916 Speaker 2: and if I was up, i'd watch it. Yeah, And 529 00:30:45,956 --> 00:30:48,196 Speaker 2: I think I was usually up in those days. 530 00:30:48,756 --> 00:30:52,836 Speaker 1: And stereotypically, you are the Dick Caviot audience, right. 531 00:30:52,956 --> 00:30:56,196 Speaker 2: I am. Yeah. It seemed like half an hour, you 532 00:30:56,236 --> 00:30:59,116 Speaker 2: know where they were just yelling and yelling and yelling. 533 00:30:59,116 --> 00:30:59,436 Speaker 1: It was. 534 00:30:59,796 --> 00:31:04,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was so alien that I felt sorry for him. 535 00:31:05,036 --> 00:31:08,716 Speaker 1: He didn't dismiss that whole exchange or shrug or change 536 00:31:08,716 --> 00:31:12,396 Speaker 1: the channel. He reacted to it. He imagines what a 537 00:31:12,396 --> 00:31:15,876 Speaker 1: supporter of Lester Maddocks would think watching Lesterra Mattocks storm 538 00:31:15,916 --> 00:31:17,516 Speaker 1: off the stage. 539 00:31:17,836 --> 00:31:19,916 Speaker 6: Dick, I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give you one minute, 540 00:31:20,236 --> 00:31:22,676 Speaker 6: so cle Jacksons be for you. Call big, I said, George, 541 00:31:22,756 --> 00:31:23,516 Speaker 6: I'm gonna Aavey show. 542 00:31:23,556 --> 00:31:25,676 Speaker 1: Now you do whatever you won't do back. He gives 543 00:31:25,676 --> 00:31:30,876 Speaker 1: that imaginary supporter a name, Johnny Cutler, a home Birmingham, Alabama, 544 00:31:31,196 --> 00:31:34,836 Speaker 1: a job steel worker. He imagines Johnny Cutler coming home 545 00:31:34,876 --> 00:31:38,676 Speaker 1: one night drunk, gazing at his sleeping wife, and then 546 00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:41,196 Speaker 1: he imagines him turning on the television. 547 00:31:42,236 --> 00:31:46,556 Speaker 4: Last night I saw less Domatics on the TV show 548 00:31:47,876 --> 00:31:53,276 Speaker 4: with some smart ass New York jew and the jew 549 00:31:53,436 --> 00:32:00,876 Speaker 4: laugh less dematics, and the autist laughed less dematics too. 550 00:32:02,556 --> 00:32:03,396 Speaker 5: Will it may. 551 00:32:04,836 --> 00:32:09,996 Speaker 2: So smart at New York too. That's good last, that's 552 00:32:10,076 --> 00:32:14,956 Speaker 2: the man. That's pretty good. Click a clicker, clicker. 553 00:32:15,556 --> 00:32:18,236 Speaker 1: That became the first song on Good Old Boys. It's 554 00:32:18,276 --> 00:32:20,996 Speaker 1: called Rednecks. When I first heard that, I didn't know 555 00:32:21,076 --> 00:32:23,196 Speaker 1: listra Max was. I didn't even know that it was. 556 00:32:23,476 --> 00:32:27,036 Speaker 1: But that idea of the Southerner going to New York 557 00:32:27,076 --> 00:32:28,076 Speaker 1: and sitting down. 558 00:32:27,996 --> 00:32:30,796 Speaker 2: Thinking as Jewish too fantastic. 559 00:32:31,916 --> 00:32:33,196 Speaker 5: Well, it may be. 560 00:32:32,996 --> 00:32:35,076 Speaker 9: A fool, but it's awfool. 561 00:32:36,436 --> 00:32:38,596 Speaker 12: Have to think the better than him. 562 00:32:38,956 --> 00:32:39,556 Speaker 4: They're wrong. 563 00:32:41,596 --> 00:32:43,876 Speaker 2: So when I came to this. 564 00:32:43,916 --> 00:32:46,516 Speaker 1: Park, I took you want to sing along, don't you? 565 00:32:47,236 --> 00:32:49,836 Speaker 1: It's like sail Away all over again. He well, I 566 00:32:50,116 --> 00:32:57,556 Speaker 1: made this song, but then comes this we talk. 567 00:32:57,836 --> 00:33:03,756 Speaker 12: We are all funded down here, drake too much and 568 00:33:04,036 --> 00:33:08,876 Speaker 12: we laughed too loud too. Dun't make it in no, 569 00:33:09,316 --> 00:33:13,596 Speaker 12: all them town keeping nails down. 570 00:33:15,396 --> 00:33:19,196 Speaker 1: It's nineteen seventy. The South is in upheaval. Lester Mattis 571 00:33:19,236 --> 00:33:23,156 Speaker 1: has just been humiliated by some smartass New York jew. 572 00:33:23,556 --> 00:33:25,636 Speaker 1: What do you think Johnny Cupp is gonna say? 573 00:33:25,756 --> 00:33:26,556 Speaker 13: College man? 574 00:33:27,476 --> 00:33:28,036 Speaker 2: It is. 575 00:33:30,036 --> 00:33:36,516 Speaker 13: When in dumb, come out dumpty, hustling around a lenner 576 00:33:36,676 --> 00:33:40,836 Speaker 13: in the alligator shoes, they getting drupped every weekend at 577 00:33:40,876 --> 00:33:45,516 Speaker 13: the barbecues and keeping the nails down. 578 00:33:46,476 --> 00:33:50,076 Speaker 1: How did people respond to that song at the time. 579 00:33:50,716 --> 00:33:57,756 Speaker 2: I played it in Lafayette? Uh, it was young and 580 00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:02,116 Speaker 2: they loved it. I got a letter, the only one 581 00:34:02,116 --> 00:34:06,756 Speaker 2: I ever got on this song from somebody, and he said, 582 00:34:07,156 --> 00:34:12,036 Speaker 2: dear sir, I was in the audience in Lafayette when 583 00:34:12,036 --> 00:34:16,116 Speaker 2: you played this song. He's a black kid, And he said, 584 00:34:18,996 --> 00:34:22,076 Speaker 2: I don't know where you're coming from, but there I was, 585 00:34:22,236 --> 00:34:24,956 Speaker 2: and I was enjoying the concert up to then, and 586 00:34:24,996 --> 00:34:26,676 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I'm sitting in the middle of 587 00:34:26,716 --> 00:34:33,476 Speaker 2: fifteen hundred white guys yelling red next. We're red next, 588 00:34:33,516 --> 00:34:36,676 Speaker 2: you know? And he said it made him very uncomfortable, 589 00:34:37,156 --> 00:34:39,036 Speaker 2: and he wanted to let me know. 590 00:34:39,796 --> 00:34:45,596 Speaker 12: Weir read, weard, we don't know. 591 00:34:45,876 --> 00:34:49,396 Speaker 9: I ask normal, holding the ground, we read. 592 00:34:50,716 --> 00:34:54,316 Speaker 1: Southern audiences started yelling for it so they could sing 593 00:34:54,356 --> 00:34:57,756 Speaker 1: along with the chorus. Did it become was it taken 594 00:34:57,796 --> 00:35:01,196 Speaker 1: over by didn't become a kind of Southern anthem for 595 00:35:01,236 --> 00:35:02,076 Speaker 1: a certain kind of. 596 00:35:02,596 --> 00:35:05,196 Speaker 2: Or did When I thought that that was happening. I 597 00:35:05,236 --> 00:35:06,076 Speaker 2: stopped playing it. 598 00:35:06,396 --> 00:35:10,916 Speaker 1: You know, in the South, he had to stop singing it. 599 00:35:11,316 --> 00:35:14,996 Speaker 1: Many radio stations wouldn't play it, and you definitely wouldn't 600 00:35:15,036 --> 00:35:17,996 Speaker 1: hear that song on the radio today. It even feels 601 00:35:17,996 --> 00:35:23,156 Speaker 1: strange to play it here. We've become appropriately uncomfortable with 602 00:35:23,236 --> 00:35:26,676 Speaker 1: the N word in almost any context. You can only 603 00:35:26,716 --> 00:35:30,156 Speaker 1: play Rednecks now if you explain where it came from 604 00:35:30,476 --> 00:35:34,396 Speaker 1: and who Johnny Cutler was. But you can't not play 605 00:35:34,436 --> 00:35:38,156 Speaker 1: it just because it makes you feel uncomfortable, because Johnny 606 00:35:38,156 --> 00:35:43,436 Speaker 1: Cutler in Birmingham, Alabama, in nineteen seventy absolutely wanted to 607 00:35:43,516 --> 00:35:46,476 Speaker 1: keep the niggers down, and we can't gloss over that 608 00:35:46,556 --> 00:35:50,276 Speaker 1: fact if we're being honest. Oh and by the way, 609 00:35:50,436 --> 00:35:52,316 Speaker 1: Johnny Cutler wasn't done. 610 00:35:52,556 --> 00:35:57,756 Speaker 9: Down here, we twigger were to realize at the North 611 00:35:58,036 --> 00:35:59,636 Speaker 9: sent the niaga free. 612 00:35:59,916 --> 00:36:02,716 Speaker 1: He then names every slum in every northern city. 613 00:36:02,796 --> 00:36:05,676 Speaker 9: Put in a cage in Harlem, in New York City, 614 00:36:06,436 --> 00:36:08,956 Speaker 9: it's free to be put in a cage. In the south. 615 00:36:09,276 --> 00:36:12,236 Speaker 9: Out of Chicago, on the West Side, he's free to 616 00:36:12,276 --> 00:36:15,356 Speaker 9: be putt in a cage. And he Saint Louis and 617 00:36:15,516 --> 00:36:19,676 Speaker 9: then put a minute cage and Houghing please, and then 618 00:36:19,796 --> 00:36:24,676 Speaker 9: put a minutic cage filmont Sian Francisco, and then put 619 00:36:24,756 --> 00:36:26,996 Speaker 9: him in the cage Lenox here. 620 00:36:26,916 --> 00:36:28,716 Speaker 2: And Boston they gathered. 621 00:36:28,956 --> 00:36:32,236 Speaker 1: He says to all those smug Northerners, when you drive 622 00:36:32,276 --> 00:36:34,956 Speaker 1: with your windows up and your door is locked through 623 00:36:34,956 --> 00:36:38,596 Speaker 1: the projects of your own inner cities, are you still 624 00:36:38,676 --> 00:36:43,316 Speaker 1: sure you're better than me? Now you have to play 625 00:36:43,356 --> 00:36:46,836 Speaker 1: that too, because if you're going to be honest about 626 00:36:46,836 --> 00:36:50,316 Speaker 1: who Lester Maddox really was, you have to be honest 627 00:36:50,596 --> 00:36:55,196 Speaker 1: about his critics too. Did you ever hear from Lester Maddox? 628 00:36:55,996 --> 00:36:58,676 Speaker 2: He sent me an axe and didn't really know. 629 00:36:59,836 --> 00:37:01,036 Speaker 1: Oh that's fantastic. 630 00:37:01,876 --> 00:37:04,556 Speaker 2: From his store he sold the axe handles. 631 00:37:04,636 --> 00:37:09,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, pickhandless. Lester Maddox listened to a song about 632 00:37:09,276 --> 00:37:11,876 Speaker 1: racial hatred, and he sent the man who wrote it 633 00:37:12,276 --> 00:37:27,596 Speaker 1: a pickhandle as a token of his gratitude. Revisionist History 634 00:37:27,756 --> 00:37:31,996 Speaker 1: is produced by me LaBelle and Jacob Smith with Camille Baptista. 635 00:37:32,596 --> 00:37:36,836 Speaker 1: Our editor is Julia Barton. Flonn Williams is our engineer. 636 00:37:37,076 --> 00:37:41,036 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Beth Johnson. Original music by Luis Gierra. 637 00:37:41,476 --> 00:37:47,396 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Carle Migliori, Heather Fein Maggie Taylor, Maya Kanigg, 638 00:37:47,556 --> 00:37:51,196 Speaker 1: and Jacob Weisberg. Revision's history is brought to you by 639 00:37:51,236 --> 00:37:58,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Gladwell. By the way, there's a 640 00:37:59,036 --> 00:38:02,036 Speaker 1: great essay on this subject in the twenty fourteen book 641 00:38:02,396 --> 00:38:05,836 Speaker 1: let The Devil Speak by Stephen Hart. Heart writes that 642 00:38:06,356 --> 00:38:10,116 Speaker 1: in sail Away, Randy Newman showed one of America's greatest 643 00:38:10,196 --> 00:38:14,436 Speaker 1: lies being crafted. In his next album, Newman would show 644 00:38:14,476 --> 00:38:24,796 Speaker 1: how the lie soaked into America's bones. Com aboard Little One. 645 00:38:24,796 --> 00:38:33,276 Speaker 2: And Yeah, then what you can't I think this is 646 00:38:33,316 --> 00:38:36,076 Speaker 2: sort of happy. I mean, certainly the voices make it 647 00:38:36,076 --> 00:38:38,756 Speaker 2: that way. You can't do it? 648 00:38:39,116 --> 00:38:49,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's lost all of it's you know. I like that, 649 00:38:53,516 --> 00:38:56,356 Speaker 1: Like it's something of delicacy you're getting at this. Yeah, 650 00:38:56,516 --> 00:38:59,996 Speaker 1: artisanal bakery.