Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: My understanding was this was going to be that I
Speaker 1: was allowed to ask you some questions as well. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm sure it's okay. Well, I'm gonna add
Speaker 1: a little. It's supposed to be a conversation. We've had
Speaker 1: a couple of those over the years. I'm Hillary Clinton,
Speaker 1: and I'm excited to be back with a new season
Speaker 1: of You and Me Both, and to have lots of
Speaker 1: conversations with people I know and admire. And I can't
Speaker 1: think of a better guest to start off this new
Speaker 1: season with than someone I've known for more than twenty
Speaker 1: five years, whom Aberdeen, whom and I first met back
Speaker 1: in six when I was First Lady and she was
Speaker 1: an intern assigned to the office of the First Lady.
Speaker 1: We've worked together ever since, at the White House, in
Speaker 1: the Senate, at the State Department, traveling the world and
Speaker 1: criss crossing our country, and a couple of campaign means,
Speaker 1: and boy have we been through some incredible times together.
Speaker 1: But Huma has her own story to tell, which she
Speaker 1: does so beautifully in her new memoir called Both and
Speaker 1: A Life in Many Worlds. It's been on all kinds
Speaker 1: of best books lists, and I am delighted to get
Speaker 1: to talk to her about her life and about the
Speaker 1: memoir she wrote all about it. So welcome to this podcast, Tuma.
Speaker 1: I have not been as excited for any other interview
Speaker 1: recently as I have been to have a conversation with you,
Speaker 1: because I feel as though the reason this book exists
Speaker 1: is in large part because of you. So I'm looking
Speaker 1: forward to talking to you about him. You know, I
Speaker 1: want to start where you start. Obviously, so many of
Speaker 1: the interviews have focused on your time in the White
Speaker 1: House and serving in the Senate with me, and being
Speaker 1: in the Secretary of State to office at the State
Speaker 1: Department and everything else. But I want our listeners to
Speaker 1: learn more about your childhood. Just give us a little
Speaker 1: bit of an overview, because clearly your family is at
Speaker 1: the center of this story, and I want people to
Speaker 1: know a little bit more about them too. So I
Speaker 1: did choose to start my story with my family history
Speaker 1: because I think this is actually something you and I
Speaker 1: have in common, is we are both curious about other people,
Speaker 1: other cultures, other languages, why people are compelled to do
Speaker 1: certain things or make certain decisions. And for me, ever
Speaker 1: since I was a little girl. I loved reading stories.
Speaker 1: I was brought up in a house with two academics
Speaker 1: who furnished our entire inner lives with books stories. We
Speaker 1: would stage these theater shows for our parents. We loved
Speaker 1: My parents love the theater, and so we'd have performances.
Speaker 1: And so my brother was always the hero. My older
Speaker 1: sister had Deal was always like Princess Leiah, and I
Speaker 1: was always like Chewbacca or like the bad guy who
Speaker 1: gets killed every single time. So when you ask, and
Speaker 1: my little sister, Hibo came four years later, he was
Speaker 1: like this dainty rose and the baby in the family.
Speaker 1: You know, she always got to play the precious little princess.
Speaker 1: So that's the role I played. I was the you know,
Speaker 1: the typical middle child. I was raised in Saudi Arabia,
Speaker 1: as you know, born in Kalamazoo, Michigan immigrant parents. And
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this a lot over the last
Speaker 1: weeks because as I do these interviews, I tell people
Speaker 1: all the people who asked me, why did you write
Speaker 1: this book? And I say, to some degree, it's a
Speaker 1: love letter to my father, who died when I was seventeen.
Speaker 1: But he was essentially terminally ill for just about my
Speaker 1: entire life, and we didn't know that it was a diagnosis.
Speaker 1: He was diagnosed with renal failure when I was two.
Speaker 1: We were living in Kalamazoo, Michigan. And it's you know,
Speaker 1: one of the first lines I wrote when I was
Speaker 1: writing this book, which is my father was told he
Speaker 1: was dying, and so he went out and he lived.
Speaker 1: And he was my age. He was forty six when
Speaker 1: he got that diagnosis. I was to My older sister
Speaker 1: was four and my brother was not even ten, and
Speaker 1: you know, collected their kids and we moved to Saudi
Speaker 1: Arabia um two months later. And I think my father,
Speaker 1: not knowing how much time he had left, decided that
Speaker 1: he was everything he wanted to do on his bucket
Speaker 1: list he was going to do. He starts the Thought
Speaker 1: Institute that explored a Muslim minority conditions around the world
Speaker 1: and took us everywhere. And I think that gift of
Speaker 1: being curious and respectful, because really the way he raised
Speaker 1: us was the only way we were all going to
Speaker 1: live in peace together this world. The globe was for
Speaker 1: everyone to come to the table as equals. And I
Speaker 1: really think that grounding landed me in that White House
Speaker 1: at twenty one as an intern for you, and it
Speaker 1: was an environment that was basically driven inspired. That is
Speaker 1: how you and President Clinton were, the values, the causes,
Speaker 1: the missions, and it's I think one of the reasons
Speaker 1: that it's been hard impossible to leave you. I think
Speaker 1: I'm going to be in some way of service to
Speaker 1: you until I die, because I mean, I mean not
Speaker 1: to be like dramatic, but I just think it's that
Speaker 1: it's that connection. Well, but I listened to your story. Obviously,
Speaker 1: I've had the great delight of getting to know your mom.
Speaker 1: I wish I could have met your dad, but I
Speaker 1: feel like I have a real sense of him from
Speaker 1: what you've said and certainly the way that you so
Speaker 1: lovingly portray him in the book. But the upbringing they
Speaker 1: gave you is something that so equipped you for the
Speaker 1: work that you started to do when you were twenty one.
Speaker 1: So I think that you became, in wonderful ways the
Speaker 1: product of their values and their understanding of what is
Speaker 1: a life well lived. And one of my favorite memories
Speaker 1: is going to the college in Jetta in Saudi Arabia
Speaker 1: where you grew up that your mother helped us start,
Speaker 1: and that she was still helping to run when I
Speaker 1: was Secretary of State, and we went to this school
Speaker 1: together to really see and be part of your mother's
Speaker 1: lifelong work. And I really admire your mother was on
Speaker 1: the front lines of women's rights. She was, you know,
Speaker 1: involved in the preparation for the Beijing conference where I spoke.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about the role
Speaker 1: that she played also in your life? Certainly in our household,
Speaker 1: education was a religion. My parents told us ever since
Speaker 1: I have conscious memories, you can do anything you want.
Speaker 1: We don't care. All we require is that you be
Speaker 1: educated and to really, you know, push myself to learn
Speaker 1: and grow and experience and to be fearless. And I think,
Speaker 1: I really um I give that credit to my father,
Speaker 1: but also to my mother. She was a refugee, had
Speaker 1: to leave her home in India after the partition and
Speaker 1: fled to Pakistan. They didn't want to She was living
Speaker 1: in Bombay. They had this dream life and then one
Speaker 1: morning everything changed and moost America. She gets a Fulbright scholarship,
Speaker 1: goes to the University of Pennsylvania, meets my father, doesn't
Speaker 1: return to Pakistan to marry the man she was promised
Speaker 1: to meets my father, they get married, and then moves
Speaker 1: to this country. Really, what she did for my father,
Speaker 1: he was the one sort of driving this train and
Speaker 1: she was really along for the ride. But that moment,
Speaker 1: that very first moment, she said, the first year she
Speaker 1: lived there, she would look out the window and every
Speaker 1: time she saw on airplane, she would dream that she
Speaker 1: was on that airplane. And instead of just sort of
Speaker 1: wallowing or being sort of angry and resentful about it,
Speaker 1: she did the opposite. She walked into that university. She
Speaker 1: was working at the first English language university in jed
Speaker 1: Death the time. She was a sociologist. She just immersed
Speaker 1: herself in the culture, in the environment. She taught herself Arabic.
Speaker 1: So even though my father, you know, was kind of
Speaker 1: a hero in our family, my mother is WHENO made
Speaker 1: it all happen. She's the one who would bake brownies
Speaker 1: when we had a bake cell the next morning. She's
Speaker 1: the one who sewed our clothes. And when my father
Speaker 1: was sick, she's the one who essentially aided and abetted
Speaker 1: the illusion that he was healthy even though he was sick,
Speaker 1: And she was the one taking him to the hospital
Speaker 1: in the the middle of the night. She was the one
Speaker 1: cleaning up after him and sort of propping him up
Speaker 1: and allowing him to be this invincible father, and we
Speaker 1: were able to live kind of really these carefree childhoods.
Speaker 1: So when you came to college, eventually to George Washington
Speaker 1: University in Washington, d c. You ben back and forth
Speaker 1: to the United States, but it was shortly after your
Speaker 1: dad had died, and as you beautifully portray in the book,
Speaker 1: that was a devastating event for you and for your family.
Speaker 1: What was that transition like from finishing, you know, high
Speaker 1: school in Saudi Arabia and then losing your dad and
Speaker 1: then packing up and moving to the US to gw
Speaker 1: for college. I was in such shock. In fact, the
Speaker 1: first conversation I had with my mother after my father's
Speaker 1: funeral was that I wasn't going to go to university,
Speaker 1: that I was going to stay in Saudi Arabia and
Speaker 1: help run my father's institute. And my mother tells me,
Speaker 1: your father would have wanted you to go to school
Speaker 1: in the end, it is your choice. Shortly before he
Speaker 1: had passed away, before he had gotten sick, my father
Speaker 1: told me, um, the biggest challenge I was gonna have
Speaker 1: moving to United States and living there for the first time.
Speaker 1: For university. He called it, actually it was going to
Speaker 1: be a revolution, and then it was going to be
Speaker 1: a cultural revolution that you know, I had grown up
Speaker 1: really in a in a society and environment where you know,
Speaker 1: we had this very supportive community. It's called the oh
Speaker 1: Math ever present community in Islam. That's just the community
Speaker 1: we lived in. There was always somebody there to help,
Speaker 1: to support, to be there for you. You never had
Speaker 1: a sense of loneliness or isolation. So to walk into
Speaker 1: the George Washington University campus really less than two months
Speaker 1: after I lost my father, you know, being an environment
Speaker 1: that was entirely foreign to me, and I really did
Speaker 1: struggle with that. And the way I dealt with it
Speaker 1: was I threw myself into everything. I joined every student association,
Speaker 1: every cultural club. I kept very, very busy, and I
Speaker 1: studied everything. I mean, I wanted to be a journalist,
Speaker 1: I wanted to be Christian. I'm on poor She'd been
Speaker 1: my model. But I studied political science and I took
Speaker 1: philosophy and creative writing in theater just to see what
Speaker 1: else I would love. And I think it's one of
Speaker 1: the best things I did well then let's fast forward
Speaker 1: a little bit, because you end up applying for and
Speaker 1: being accepted as an intern in the White House, and
Speaker 1: lucky for me, being assigned to the First Lady's Office,
Speaker 1: and give us a bit of an impression about going
Speaker 1: to work in the White House, being assigned to the
Speaker 1: First Lady's Office, meeting me for the listeners kind of
Speaker 1: paint the picture that you do so well in your book.
Speaker 1: I always felt people. I think it was a combination
Speaker 1: of fate, luck, and hard work that landed me in
Speaker 1: that office. Because I had a friend at university who
Speaker 1: was interning from Mike McCurry, who was then the White
Speaker 1: House Press Secretary, And since I had intended to become
Speaker 1: Christian Alman Poor, I thought the only way the best
Speaker 1: way to do that was to get an internship in
Speaker 1: the same office. But I was assigned to the First
Speaker 1: Lady's Policy Office, and that was Milan Ververe your who's
Speaker 1: then your deputy chief of staff for policy. And I
Speaker 1: remember stepping on into the hallway and calling my mother
Speaker 1: from those old brick cell phones and saying, Mom, how
Speaker 1: am I going to be Christian? I'm on poor, If
Speaker 1: I'm in the First Lady's Policy office and not in
Speaker 1: the press office. And my mother said, you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: plan A doesn't work out, but plan B works out
Speaker 1: pretty well. And boy did it ever because going into
Speaker 1: Milan's office, my job as an intern, my first day
Speaker 1: in September was to respond to policy correspondence. And these
Speaker 1: were all the issues First Lady Hillary Clinton a selection
Speaker 1: of issues that she was working on, and I remember
Speaker 1: being stunned opening one folder and it was letters about
Speaker 1: you were advocating for female genital mutilation it becoming illegal
Speaker 1: for it to be practiced in this country, which it
Speaker 1: wasn't illegal at the time. I looked at all these other,
Speaker 1: you know, documents early childhood development and healthcare and women's
Speaker 1: rights all over the world. I mean, it just spanned
Speaker 1: so many really important substantive issues and I've I remember
Speaker 1: being hooked almost from day one to the work to
Speaker 1: the information. It was so interesting and it felt so important. Uh,
Speaker 1: this notion of you know, serving people and helping people
Speaker 1: around the world. And you know, when you're an intern
Speaker 1: in the White House, the President and First Lady are
Speaker 1: essentially these mythological figures. You know, you don't see or
Speaker 1: hear from them personally very often. So the first time
Speaker 1: I actually met you was re election night November. The
Speaker 1: d n C had charted some planes for staff to
Speaker 1: go down, and they'd offered interns an opportunity to buy
Speaker 1: seat on that plane, and a group of interns went down,
Speaker 1: and I remember walking around that lawn um as we
Speaker 1: were gathering looking at the jumbo tron as the states
Speaker 1: were called for President Clinton. I mean, it was politics
Speaker 1: on steroids. I just remember feeling electrified. It just felt,
Speaker 1: you know, so exciting to be there. And after the
Speaker 1: election was called, you both came down with the gores
Speaker 1: and and worked a rope line. And I remember I
Speaker 1: was pretty far back in the crowd, and I remember
Speaker 1: pushing my way through and reaching my hand over the
Speaker 1: shoulders of others, and I will never forget this moment.
Speaker 1: You reached out through the crowd and you shook my hand.
Speaker 1: You looked right at me and you said, thank you.
Speaker 1: You have no idea was an enter in your office.
Speaker 1: And I will forever remember that moment, and that experience
Speaker 1: that I had is something that has stayed with me.
Speaker 1: As you've met people around the world, as you've been
Speaker 1: at these events and done rope lines, and people would say, oh, please,
Speaker 1: please one more handshake. I would always try to say,
Speaker 1: come on this side, shake that person's hand, because that
Speaker 1: was you, that was your own experience. I still remember
Speaker 1: my own sending. What that means. It isn't once in
Speaker 1: a lifetime for many people, and for me, I had
Speaker 1: the privilege of that being just the beginning. We're taking
Speaker 1: a quick break. Stay with us. Well, you did such
Speaker 1: an excellent job in my office, and you know, you
Speaker 1: just developed a real reputation as a go to person,
Speaker 1: and you know, we've had some amazing experiences all of
Speaker 1: these years. Is there a favorite trip that we've taken
Speaker 1: together that pops immediately to the front of your brain
Speaker 1: when you think back. That is going to be very,
Speaker 1: very difficult. So my first couple sort of stay in
Speaker 1: my mind because I had no idea what I was doing,
Speaker 1: and you were so patient with me. I remember the
Speaker 1: first day they threw me in because the attitude a
Speaker 1: little bit in our office was a little bit of
Speaker 1: sink or swim, let's see if she can do it
Speaker 1: and uh, And as you well know, I had a
Speaker 1: hard time finding my voice. I whispered, you did not
Speaker 1: speak up. I didn't I did I did not speak up.
Speaker 1: But Um, when you were in the White House, I
Speaker 1: remember UM staffing you on a trip to the Hague,
Speaker 1: and as you were flying over, we got news that
Speaker 1: King Hussein if Jordan had passed away, and you were
Speaker 1: very close to you and the President were very close
Speaker 1: to King Hussein and Queen Nora, and for me, as
Speaker 1: a girl growing up in Saudi Arabia, he was sort
Speaker 1: of this larger than live champion of peace. And I
Speaker 1: remember you've landed in the Hague. We did a few
Speaker 1: events and as you were leaving, you told me to
Speaker 1: get on the plane and I went to that funeral
Speaker 1: and you introduced me to Queen Nora, and this, I mean,
Speaker 1: it was such a big moment for me just you know, personally,
Speaker 1: it meant so much to be included. Um. And then
Speaker 1: the trip to Israel, the fairy first trip to Israel
Speaker 1: in December I made, and you were advancing. I was advancing,
Speaker 1: And I think it's important for listeners to understand what
Speaker 1: that means because people who work for those of us
Speaker 1: in public life, for politics often are going to so
Speaker 1: many different places and you need to send people ahead
Speaker 1: to you know, really nail down the schedule to do
Speaker 1: the walk throughs to figure out what's going to happen,
Speaker 1: and of course, in my case, coordinate with the Secret
Speaker 1: Service and everything that's going on. So here you are,
Speaker 1: this Muslim American having grown up in Saudi Arabia. You're
Speaker 1: sent to Israel to help advance the trip that Bill
Speaker 1: and I, the President and I are going to take.
Speaker 1: There is a moment in your book that ranks so
Speaker 1: true to me, when you've been working closely with the
Speaker 1: advanced team from the Israeli government and you're at a
Speaker 1: meal with them. Describe that, because I found that to
Speaker 1: be so poignant. I grew up in a in a
Speaker 1: country where you know, certainly I did not know any Jews,
Speaker 1: and then you know you Israel was very much the
Speaker 1: other I mean, and this is in the eighties and
Speaker 1: pasting into Fatto was underway. And so even though I
Speaker 1: grew up in a house where my father says, you
Speaker 1: have to explore the other, understand, you know, I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't. I just thought there was a different way
Speaker 1: of thinking or existence. I didn't know what I expected. Actually,
Speaker 1: So to land in Jerusalem and we stayed at the
Speaker 1: Jerusalem Hilton that very first trip, and to stand on
Speaker 1: my balcony, and to look out at the Old City
Speaker 1: and see, you know, the most important holy place for
Speaker 1: Jews um, you know, the whaling Wall of Temple Mount.
Speaker 1: To see one of the most important, you know, significant
Speaker 1: sights for for Muslims, the Dome of the Rock. And
Speaker 1: then to know this is where Jesus Christ took his
Speaker 1: final steps on the Via della Rosa, somebody of faith
Speaker 1: of you know, one of the monotheistic faiths. To just
Speaker 1: stare at this space and they had all happened right here.
Speaker 1: It was such an overwhelming experience. And not only that
Speaker 1: I was there on behalf of an administration whose entire
Speaker 1: motivation was to figure out how to get everyone to
Speaker 1: live and work together. And then at the end of
Speaker 1: this week going to lunch, and everybody else on the
Speaker 1: delegation aside from me who had traveled from the White House,
Speaker 1: were American Jews. I mean, it was obviously, you know,
Speaker 1: everybody wanted to go, including me, and so I it
Speaker 1: was funny because all of the name plates were names
Speaker 1: like Shamir and stein and Rosenthal and Steinberg, and then
Speaker 1: Aberdeen was the last one. At the last meal we
Speaker 1: had with the Israeli Foreign Ministry, We're sipping our mint
Speaker 1: tea and the delegation official leans over to me and says,
Speaker 1: you know, we really like this American delegation, but you're
Speaker 1: our favorite because you're the most like us. Isn't that amazing?
Speaker 1: And I remember sitting there thinking, yes, he's right. I
Speaker 1: have this cultural connection. I know the food, I understand
Speaker 1: the language. You know. It was such a moment. I
Speaker 1: found a letter I wrote to my mother on hotel
Speaker 1: letter had saying this trip has changed me for or
Speaker 1: changed my life. It was so meaningful. And then I mean, gosh,
Speaker 1: we went to Iceland and we bought boots together. That
Speaker 1: was a fun trip on that heated side. While he
Speaker 1: went to Florence towards the end of the White House,
Speaker 1: you were there for a Third Way conference. I remember,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you got a black coat. We we
Speaker 1: just had so much dancing in Morocco. Oh my gosh
Speaker 1: at the Memmonia Hotel. I mean, there were so many
Speaker 1: great meals. Oh my god. We ate around the world
Speaker 1: and we continue to eat our way around the world. Boy,
Speaker 1: you have fed me very well. I have to thank
Speaker 1: you for that. Or the Saudia do you remember do
Speaker 1: you remember the meal with the Saudi in his tent,
Speaker 1: that tent in the desert a palace. It was the
Speaker 1: biggest tent I had ever seen. It was when I
Speaker 1: was Secretary of State and we were meeting with then
Speaker 1: King Abdolah and he had all of his UH top officials.
Speaker 1: I had my traveling party, plus the press, and they
Speaker 1: laid out a meal for us in another part of
Speaker 1: the tent. That was the biggest buffet I've ever seen.
Speaker 1: It went around three sides of that big tent. Remember,
Speaker 1: it was unbelievable, and they kept you know, you would
Speaker 1: take a little bit, they don't. What's more, what's none
Speaker 1: of us. It occurred to none of us to brief
Speaker 1: you properly. This is actually my failure. You and the
Speaker 1: king are walking along this buffet, and you had this
Speaker 1: man with a tray behind you, and it had one
Speaker 1: plate with empty spoons and then one empty plate for
Speaker 1: the dirty spoons. And as you walk down the buffet,
Speaker 1: you were meant to sample and then discard the spoon
Speaker 1: and then tell the other gentleman I would like this,
Speaker 1: and I would like that. And then you get to
Speaker 1: the end. Then you sit down and they start bringing
Speaker 1: you plates and plates. The foods you had sampled, and
Speaker 1: you're like, no, I'm already full because you had basically
Speaker 1: eaten at the buffet. And then I bring you your
Speaker 1: cards over that you're supposed to, you know, raise with
Speaker 1: his majesty, And as you're about to raise these points,
Speaker 1: a TV screen come up from the middle of the
Speaker 1: table and the soccer match. It was a soccer match,
Speaker 1: so that nobody could overhear us. Right, that was a
Speaker 1: strategy conversation. We'll be right back. So you probably know
Speaker 1: better than anybody. What would people be most surprised about
Speaker 1: traveling with me. I think the fact that I still
Speaker 1: can't get over this. How you can like be getting
Speaker 1: ready for a really big bilateral meeting or speech and
Speaker 1: we're flying somewhere and then you just fall asleep in
Speaker 1: the chair next to me, like when you were secretaries,
Speaker 1: and it was like unbelievable, and then you wake up
Speaker 1: you're like, Okay, I'm good, you know. I think maybe
Speaker 1: the big secret that nobody knows is that everyone says
Speaker 1: you're so well prepared, you're so briefed, and I don't
Speaker 1: really I don't know. I think you you're either a
Speaker 1: speed reader or you digest information. You just know a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff because on those plane rides we spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time eating lack and joking, teasing Philip
Speaker 1: who was always asleep. Um, but the way you can
Speaker 1: digest information, I think it's probably a big support. I've
Speaker 1: had a lot of experiences, as you know. You know,
Speaker 1: I did a recent master class about resilience and talked
Speaker 1: about you know, what it's like to pick yourself up.
Speaker 1: Everybody gets knocked down. We all have to figure out
Speaker 1: how to keep going. And as part of that master class,
Speaker 1: I interviewed you about mentorship and passing on some of
Speaker 1: these lessons. But do you have advice about what to
Speaker 1: do in the face of weariness and pessimism and discouragement
Speaker 1: that you'd want to share for me? Every day I
Speaker 1: get up, and maybe this is the result of being
Speaker 1: raised in house with an ill parent. Every day I
Speaker 1: wake up and I'm healthy. Um. I have gratitude just
Speaker 1: to be alive and to be in this world. And
Speaker 1: even on days when I thought things were really bad,
Speaker 1: and boy, I have definitely had some experiences in my
Speaker 1: life that are really bad. I am somehow able to
Speaker 1: recognize that there are millions of people in this world
Speaker 1: that have it worse than I do. And I think
Speaker 1: that's what has kept me going. And for me, I
Speaker 1: had the benefit of being raised by parents who I
Speaker 1: think resilience is something that you build. I think you're
Speaker 1: not just born with it. I think it can be
Speaker 1: in cocaine. And and you've done that with your son.
Speaker 1: Jordan's who I have just been overjoyed to get to
Speaker 1: know and watching him grow up, and he is just
Speaker 1: such a joyful, determined, you know young man, you know
Speaker 1: to have. I was raised on a household of radical empathy.
Speaker 1: I work for a boss who has radical empathy that
Speaker 1: bosses you. My father, when he was twenty one, broke
Speaker 1: his back. He was an equestrian in the riding school
Speaker 1: at university and he's forced through him and he fell
Speaker 1: and he hurt his back and for a week was
Speaker 1: crawling around and finally when his friends took him into
Speaker 1: the doctor, uh, they said, have you been walking around
Speaker 1: on a broken back? Like? That's the man who raised me.
Speaker 1: And actually we took horse writing lessons when I was young,
Speaker 1: and I'm not sure I've ever told you the story.
Speaker 1: And I was about fifteen. My horse Buttercup that I
Speaker 1: was supposed to be doing my writing exercises inside the shed,
Speaker 1: and Buttercup just snapped and I couldn't. We went into
Speaker 1: a canter and I lost control and I was thrown
Speaker 1: from my horse and landed right on my back. Both
Speaker 1: my parents were there, and they came running over, and
Speaker 1: my mother, you know, immediately says, no, that's it, that's it.
Speaker 1: This is too dangerous. You know. We were going home immediately.
Speaker 1: And my father, who walked his whole life with a
Speaker 1: hunchback because he broken his back, looks right at me
Speaker 1: and he says, no, she has to get back on
Speaker 1: that horse. I mean that determination that resolved. They made
Speaker 1: sure I was okay. You know. I limped around a
Speaker 1: little bit, but they got me back on Buttercup immediately,
Speaker 1: and I remember I shaking. I was so scared, but
Speaker 1: I didn't. And throughout my childhood, my parents would do that.
Speaker 1: Go go talk to our guests in the living room,
Speaker 1: Go read your poetry, Go call the travel agent and
Speaker 1: find out about flights. I think it's so you're doing
Speaker 1: that with Jordan too. I'm doing that with Jordan, not
Speaker 1: as much as you know. I I think I intentionally
Speaker 1: need to do more, but yes, I bring him along
Speaker 1: with me places. You know clearly I value your advice,
Speaker 1: your strategic thinking, your organizational ability, all of that. But
Speaker 1: I want to ask the question that's on everybody's mind,
Speaker 1: where did you get your fashion sense? I mean, here
Speaker 1: you are, growing up mostly in Saudi Arabia, and in
Speaker 1: the book you write about how you just loved reading
Speaker 1: Vogue magazine and who knew years later you'd become a
Speaker 1: close friend of Anna Wintour. But you know, from the
Speaker 1: little I know about the time you were growing up,
Speaker 1: you you know you were covered. That was expected except
Speaker 1: in special occasions when you could be pretty much in
Speaker 1: a very close private environment. So how did you end
Speaker 1: up with this love of fashion? You wanted to be
Speaker 1: an international correspondent like Christian I'm in poor But one
Speaker 1: of the first things everybody notices about you is that
Speaker 1: you really are an iconic fashionista yourself. So first of all,
Speaker 1: I'd like to point out and when I'm wearing one
Speaker 1: of my favorite all time accessories, and it is this
Speaker 1: patent leather belt that first Lady Hillary Clinton gifted to
Speaker 1: me as you were leaving the White House. Well, of course,
Speaker 1: because I had outgrown its sad like and you know,
Speaker 1: and by the way. It was mostly dented in one notch,
Speaker 1: which was the thinnest, smallest things. One you wouldn't I
Speaker 1: used to have a waste. I mean, any years since
Speaker 1: I have seen it, but I know it's still so.
Speaker 1: I know you, I know that there's this thing out
Speaker 1: there you don't really care about fashion, but you do
Speaker 1: have some exquisite pieces. Now, I don't have a memory
Speaker 1: in my life where I didn't love something about dressing up.
Speaker 1: I was definitely a girl's girl looking pretty and we're
Speaker 1: hearing ribbons and Vogue magazine was my most prized possession
Speaker 1: and I would tear out My mother was a beautiful seamstress. Beautiful.
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the reasons I really love
Speaker 1: clothes is my mother. I would see her, you know,
Speaker 1: I would go to the material shops in the old
Speaker 1: city in budd with her. I opened my my whole
Speaker 1: story about you know, shopping in blod and you bolts
Speaker 1: of fabric and chiffon and silk, and it was just
Speaker 1: this magical you could create something extraordinary out of this material.
Speaker 1: And watching my mother so and those Vogue magazines that
Speaker 1: sort of really just became a bit of a you know,
Speaker 1: fascination of mine in a way to express myself because
Speaker 1: I was fairly quiet in my early twenties and beyond. Well,
Speaker 1: you know. That brings me to this crazy idea that
Speaker 1: people have been pitching us about a food and travel show.
Speaker 1: But I think it should be food and fashion. And
Speaker 1: I'm really into this, And I mean I can be
Speaker 1: the total kind of nerd about this, because you know,
Speaker 1: my idea of fashion is you know, pretty limited. Odd,
Speaker 1: let's be honest. But I recognize it when I see it,
Speaker 1: and I think that would be kind of fun. I
Speaker 1: think here's what I think. I think we could do
Speaker 1: a show where we travel around the world. I could
Speaker 1: style you in different places and then I was shot
Speaker 1: to myself. It would be both and then and then
Speaker 1: we would go to some we would try some amazing food,
Speaker 1: and then we would like have a hike somewhere. I
Speaker 1: think that's like we both love hiking. We do love
Speaker 1: walking and being outdoors. All right, this show. We gotta
Speaker 1: figure out what the show would be called, though, Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, I don't know. I don't have no idea.
Speaker 1: Hungary with human and Hillary. I think that's hilarious. That's
Speaker 1: a great idea, you know, But this is part of
Speaker 1: why you and I have been together so long, because
Speaker 1: in the worst of times, we've always been able not
Speaker 1: just to pick ourselves up, which sounds kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: just utilitarian, like okay, one foot in front of the other,
Speaker 1: but to find enjoyment and to force ourselves get outside
Speaker 1: for that walk, go for that wonderful meal that you
Speaker 1: know we want to enjoy together, Get a bunch of
Speaker 1: people that you care about and that you want to
Speaker 1: get to know together, and sit around at table and
Speaker 1: then you know, you know, for me, it's really fun
Speaker 1: to help people and find ways to help people. And
Speaker 1: you have been a wonderful partner to me in this
Speaker 1: because we used to get handed little slips of paper
Speaker 1: that people would put in my hand or yours saying,
Speaker 1: you know, can you help me with this problem with
Speaker 1: my you know, child, or I've lost my job, or
Speaker 1: I see an injustice somewhere, what can you do to
Speaker 1: help me? And you know, so we also share that
Speaker 1: it's that idea that you expressed earlier, radical empathy. You know,
Speaker 1: when you try to put yourself into somebody else's experience
Speaker 1: and I think you wanted to read something before I
Speaker 1: do want to read and I. You know, we wrapped up,
Speaker 1: and I want to end by asking you about what
Speaker 1: your hopes are for the new year. But but I
Speaker 1: want you to read that excerpt from your book. I
Speaker 1: want to read the excerpt, and I do want to
Speaker 1: recall all than many many hours and people one of
Speaker 1: the things people asking about all the time. But two
Speaker 1: things they asked me. Number one, what did she ask
Speaker 1: you not to put in the book? What did she
Speaker 1: say you couldn't put in? I said nothing, literally nothing.
Speaker 1: It's all in there, including when she broke her elbow
Speaker 1: and I saw it and fainted and peeting my pants,
Speaker 1: and you said, go take care of her. Um. The
Speaker 1: second thing people always asked me, what do you guys
Speaker 1: talk about? You're always in these like secret conversations. You're
Speaker 1: whispering in her ear, And how much time we would
Speaker 1: spend with you saying, do you remember that woman I
Speaker 1: met yesterday, you know at the coffee shop who had
Speaker 1: that problem with there's son? How many of those quote
Speaker 1: unquote secret conversations that we had that was about somebody else?
Speaker 1: And I always share this with people, and they said,
Speaker 1: you know what, what's it really like? You know? Camp
Speaker 1: politics is so tough and you know, how can you
Speaker 1: see optimistic? And I always say it's because I remember
Speaker 1: following you around this country, starting in really into that
Speaker 1: especially in two thousand and eight and two thousand and sixteen,
Speaker 1: into people's homes, into coffee shops and school gymnasiums, And
Speaker 1: as you're on that stage and then working that rope line,
Speaker 1: we walk around, we talk to people. We are carrying
Speaker 1: the hopes, dreams, fears, and aspirations of all of these people.
Speaker 1: And think about the responsibility you felt on your shoulders
Speaker 1: when you walked out of those events and got into
Speaker 1: that car and got on that plane and went back
Speaker 1: to Washington to serve wherever it was in the Senator beyond,
Speaker 1: and how that motivated you to keep going and it
Speaker 1: really inspired me to follow you. And so that's I
Speaker 1: think what we spend a lot of our time, and
Speaker 1: those whispering conversations that people talk about. So this is
Speaker 1: one of my favorite passages in the book and uh
Speaker 1: And it's towards the end of the book and I
Speaker 1: write about all the things that um I have learned
Speaker 1: from Hillary Clinton. I have learned all kinds of things,
Speaker 1: how to be confident, brave, unfailingly empathetic, future focused, tough,
Speaker 1: and gracious. She and I have had countless adventures over
Speaker 1: the past twenty five years, and who knows what lies
Speaker 1: in the future. But I am still certain about one thing.
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton would have been an exceptional president of the
Speaker 1: United States, maybe one of the best presidents. I say
Speaker 1: that with even more conviction and resolve today than when
Speaker 1: I believed it as a starry eyed young woman. The
Speaker 1: overarching quest of her public life has always been how
Speaker 1: to help every man, woman, and child reach their full potential.
Speaker 1: That purpose drove every policy rollout, every bill in the Senate,
Speaker 1: every speech she delivered, every town and country she visited,
Speaker 1: every book she wrote. Her focus was always how to
Speaker 1: give each child the opportunity to grow and flourish, every
Speaker 1: parent the tools to raise healthy, educated children, Every person
Speaker 1: the right to live in dignity, every worker the protections
Speaker 1: and rights to succeed and thrive. As president, she would
Speaker 1: have done the tough things, the right things, the messy
Speaker 1: but necessary things. She would have reached across the aisle
Speaker 1: and forced divergent opinions to the table to help all Americans.
Speaker 1: She would have served her country, not herself. Maybe it
Speaker 1: won't happen in her lifetime or line, but I am
Speaker 1: confident that history will remember her as one of the
Speaker 1: American greats. It's my favorite passage in the book, and
Speaker 1: I really well it goes on, but it means the
Speaker 1: world to me because you know, you and I we've
Speaker 1: spent I don't know by this time, millions of hours
Speaker 1: together and it's given me a lot of confidence having
Speaker 1: you by my side, um, during all those years. And
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of you, and I'm so I'm so
Speaker 1: not just excited, but grateful you wrote this book. It
Speaker 1: is both your story and a universal story. Okay, so
Speaker 1: what are your hopes for the new year, my friend? Well,
Speaker 1: I hope to eat good food first and foremost. Um,
Speaker 1: I hope, But who did you would believe how honestly
Speaker 1: you are like the Queen of Pasta. I'm looking forward
Speaker 1: to the world. I also, I you know, I'm looking
Speaker 1: forward to this seeing the end days of this pan Demmick.
Speaker 1: And as you and I have been talking about a
Speaker 1: lot over the last few days and weeks, what can
Speaker 1: we do as part of the mission that we are
Speaker 1: on together to help other people, young people, young leaders? Like,
Speaker 1: what are the ways that we can participate in the world.
Speaker 1: And I'm excited to see about any new adventures. I mean,
Speaker 1: you always, as I say, you're always the one who
Speaker 1: comes up with these crazy ideas. I'm just along for
Speaker 1: the ride, so ideas, um, but wishing everybody happy healthy
Speaker 1: New Year. And I'm thrilled to be in this conversation
Speaker 1: with you. It is a wonderful, wonderful opportunity for me to,
Speaker 1: you know, not only have this conversation with you, but
Speaker 1: to underscore how special you are and how lucky I've
Speaker 1: been to have you in my life, um, for all
Speaker 1: these years. So let's just keep going, my friend, wherever
Speaker 1: that journey leads us, uh to more food, more adventure,
Speaker 1: more fashion, more fun, and more radical empathy. I couldn't
Speaker 1: have set it better myself. Thank you so much. Whoma
Speaker 1: Abideen's new memoir is called Both and A Life in
Speaker 1: Many Worlds, and I promise you won't be able to
Speaker 1: put it down. You and Me Both is brought to
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Speaker 1: and Benita Zalman. Our engineer is Zach McNeice, and original
Speaker 1: music is by Forrest Gray. If you like you and
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Speaker 1: See you next week.