1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: My understanding was this was going to be that I 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: was allowed to ask you some questions as well. I 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: don't know, I'm sure it's okay. Well, I'm gonna add 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: a little. It's supposed to be a conversation. We've had 6 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: a couple of those over the years. I'm Hillary Clinton, 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: and I'm excited to be back with a new season 8 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: of You and Me Both, and to have lots of 9 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: conversations with people I know and admire. And I can't 10 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: think of a better guest to start off this new 11 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: season with than someone I've known for more than twenty 12 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: five years, whom Aberdeen, whom and I first met back 13 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: in six when I was First Lady and she was 14 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: an intern assigned to the office of the First Lady. 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: We've worked together ever since, at the White House, in 16 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: the Senate, at the State Department, traveling the world and 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: criss crossing our country, and a couple of campaign means, 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: and boy have we been through some incredible times together. 19 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: But Huma has her own story to tell, which she 20 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: does so beautifully in her new memoir called Both and 21 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: A Life in Many Worlds. It's been on all kinds 22 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: of best books lists, and I am delighted to get 23 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: to talk to her about her life and about the 24 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: memoir she wrote all about it. So welcome to this podcast, Tuma. 25 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: I have not been as excited for any other interview 26 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: recently as I have been to have a conversation with you, 27 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: because I feel as though the reason this book exists 28 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: is in large part because of you. So I'm looking 29 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: forward to talking to you about him. You know, I 30 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: want to start where you start. Obviously, so many of 31 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: the interviews have focused on your time in the White 32 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: House and serving in the Senate with me, and being 33 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: in the Secretary of State to office at the State 34 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: Department and everything else. But I want our listeners to 35 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: learn more about your childhood. Just give us a little 36 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: bit of an overview, because clearly your family is at 37 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: the center of this story, and I want people to 38 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: know a little bit more about them too. So I 39 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: did choose to start my story with my family history 40 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: because I think this is actually something you and I 41 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: have in common, is we are both curious about other people, 42 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: other cultures, other languages, why people are compelled to do 43 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: certain things or make certain decisions. And for me, ever 44 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: since I was a little girl. I loved reading stories. 45 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: I was brought up in a house with two academics 46 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: who furnished our entire inner lives with books stories. We 47 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: would stage these theater shows for our parents. We loved 48 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: My parents love the theater, and so we'd have performances. 49 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: And so my brother was always the hero. My older 50 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: sister had Deal was always like Princess Leiah, and I 51 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: was always like Chewbacca or like the bad guy who 52 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: gets killed every single time. So when you ask, and 53 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: my little sister, Hibo came four years later, he was 54 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: like this dainty rose and the baby in the family. 55 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: You know, she always got to play the precious little princess. 56 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: So that's the role I played. I was the you know, 57 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: the typical middle child. I was raised in Saudi Arabia, 58 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: as you know, born in Kalamazoo, Michigan immigrant parents. And 59 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this a lot over the last 60 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: weeks because as I do these interviews, I tell people 61 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: all the people who asked me, why did you write 62 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: this book? And I say, to some degree, it's a 63 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: love letter to my father, who died when I was seventeen. 64 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: But he was essentially terminally ill for just about my 65 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: entire life, and we didn't know that it was a diagnosis. 66 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: He was diagnosed with renal failure when I was two. 67 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: We were living in Kalamazoo, Michigan. And it's you know, 68 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: one of the first lines I wrote when I was 69 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: writing this book, which is my father was told he 70 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: was dying, and so he went out and he lived. 71 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: And he was my age. He was forty six when 72 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: he got that diagnosis. I was to My older sister 73 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: was four and my brother was not even ten, and 74 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: you know, collected their kids and we moved to Saudi 75 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: Arabia um two months later. And I think my father, 76 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: not knowing how much time he had left, decided that 77 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: he was everything he wanted to do on his bucket 78 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: list he was going to do. He starts the Thought 79 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: Institute that explored a Muslim minority conditions around the world 80 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: and took us everywhere. And I think that gift of 81 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: being curious and respectful, because really the way he raised 82 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: us was the only way we were all going to 83 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: live in peace together this world. The globe was for 84 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: everyone to come to the table as equals. And I 85 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: really think that grounding landed me in that White House 86 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: at twenty one as an intern for you, and it 87 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: was an environment that was basically driven inspired. That is 88 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: how you and President Clinton were, the values, the causes, 89 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: the missions, and it's I think one of the reasons 90 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: that it's been hard impossible to leave you. I think 91 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to be in some way of service to 92 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: you until I die, because I mean, I mean not 93 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: to be like dramatic, but I just think it's that 94 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: it's that connection. Well, but I listened to your story. Obviously, 95 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: I've had the great delight of getting to know your mom. 96 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: I wish I could have met your dad, but I 97 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: feel like I have a real sense of him from 98 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: what you've said and certainly the way that you so 99 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: lovingly portray him in the book. But the upbringing they 100 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: gave you is something that so equipped you for the 101 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: work that you started to do when you were twenty one. 102 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: So I think that you became, in wonderful ways the 103 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: product of their values and their understanding of what is 104 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: a life well lived. And one of my favorite memories 105 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: is going to the college in Jetta in Saudi Arabia 106 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: where you grew up that your mother helped us start, 107 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: and that she was still helping to run when I 108 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: was Secretary of State, and we went to this school 109 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: together to really see and be part of your mother's 110 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: lifelong work. And I really admire your mother was on 111 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: the front lines of women's rights. She was, you know, 112 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: involved in the preparation for the Beijing conference where I spoke. 113 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about the role 114 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: that she played also in your life? Certainly in our household, 115 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: education was a religion. My parents told us ever since 116 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: I have conscious memories, you can do anything you want. 117 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: We don't care. All we require is that you be 118 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: educated and to really, you know, push myself to learn 119 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: and grow and experience and to be fearless. And I think, 120 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: I really um I give that credit to my father, 121 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: but also to my mother. She was a refugee, had 122 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: to leave her home in India after the partition and 123 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: fled to Pakistan. They didn't want to She was living 124 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: in Bombay. They had this dream life and then one 125 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: morning everything changed and moost America. She gets a Fulbright scholarship, 126 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: goes to the University of Pennsylvania, meets my father, doesn't 127 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: return to Pakistan to marry the man she was promised 128 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: to meets my father, they get married, and then moves 129 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: to this country. Really, what she did for my father, 130 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: he was the one sort of driving this train and 131 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: she was really along for the ride. But that moment, 132 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: that very first moment, she said, the first year she 133 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: lived there, she would look out the window and every 134 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: time she saw on airplane, she would dream that she 135 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: was on that airplane. And instead of just sort of 136 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: wallowing or being sort of angry and resentful about it, 137 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: she did the opposite. She walked into that university. She 138 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: was working at the first English language university in jed 139 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: Death the time. She was a sociologist. She just immersed 140 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: herself in the culture, in the environment. She taught herself Arabic. 141 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: So even though my father, you know, was kind of 142 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: a hero in our family, my mother is WHENO made 143 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: it all happen. She's the one who would bake brownies 144 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: when we had a bake cell the next morning. She's 145 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: the one who sewed our clothes. And when my father 146 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: was sick, she's the one who essentially aided and abetted 147 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: the illusion that he was healthy even though he was sick, 148 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: And she was the one taking him to the hospital 149 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: in the the middle of the night. She was the one 150 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: cleaning up after him and sort of propping him up 151 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: and allowing him to be this invincible father, and we 152 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: were able to live kind of really these carefree childhoods. 153 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: So when you came to college, eventually to George Washington 154 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: University in Washington, d c. You ben back and forth 155 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: to the United States, but it was shortly after your 156 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: dad had died, and as you beautifully portray in the book, 157 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: that was a devastating event for you and for your family. 158 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: What was that transition like from finishing, you know, high 159 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: school in Saudi Arabia and then losing your dad and 160 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,359 Speaker 1: then packing up and moving to the US to gw 161 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: for college. I was in such shock. In fact, the 162 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: first conversation I had with my mother after my father's 163 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: funeral was that I wasn't going to go to university, 164 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: that I was going to stay in Saudi Arabia and 165 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: help run my father's institute. And my mother tells me, 166 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: your father would have wanted you to go to school 167 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: in the end, it is your choice. Shortly before he 168 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: had passed away, before he had gotten sick, my father 169 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: told me, um, the biggest challenge I was gonna have 170 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: moving to United States and living there for the first time. 171 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 1: For university. He called it, actually it was going to 172 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: be a revolution, and then it was going to be 173 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,839 Speaker 1: a cultural revolution that you know, I had grown up 174 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: really in a in a society and environment where you know, 175 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 1: we had this very supportive community. It's called the oh 176 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: Math ever present community in Islam. That's just the community 177 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: we lived in. There was always somebody there to help, 178 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: to support, to be there for you. You never had 179 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: a sense of loneliness or isolation. So to walk into 180 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: the George Washington University campus really less than two months 181 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: after I lost my father, you know, being an environment 182 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: that was entirely foreign to me, and I really did 183 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: struggle with that. And the way I dealt with it 184 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: was I threw myself into everything. I joined every student association, 185 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: every cultural club. I kept very, very busy, and I 186 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: studied everything. I mean, I wanted to be a journalist, 187 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: I wanted to be Christian. I'm on poor She'd been 188 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: my model. But I studied political science and I took 189 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: philosophy and creative writing in theater just to see what 190 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: else I would love. And I think it's one of 191 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: the best things I did well then let's fast forward 192 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: a little bit, because you end up applying for and 193 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: being accepted as an intern in the White House, and 194 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: lucky for me, being assigned to the First Lady's Office, 195 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: and give us a bit of an impression about going 196 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: to work in the White House, being assigned to the 197 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: First Lady's Office, meeting me for the listeners kind of 198 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: paint the picture that you do so well in your book. 199 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: I always felt people. I think it was a combination 200 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: of fate, luck, and hard work that landed me in 201 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: that office. Because I had a friend at university who 202 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: was interning from Mike McCurry, who was then the White 203 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: House Press Secretary, And since I had intended to become 204 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: Christian Alman Poor, I thought the only way the best 205 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: way to do that was to get an internship in 206 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: the same office. But I was assigned to the First 207 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: Lady's Policy Office, and that was Milan Ververe your who's 208 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: then your deputy chief of staff for policy. And I 209 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: remember stepping on into the hallway and calling my mother 210 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: from those old brick cell phones and saying, Mom, how 211 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: am I going to be Christian? I'm on poor, If 212 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: I'm in the First Lady's Policy office and not in 213 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: the press office. And my mother said, you know, sometimes 214 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: plan A doesn't work out, but plan B works out 215 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: pretty well. And boy did it ever because going into 216 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: Milan's office, my job as an intern, my first day 217 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: in September was to respond to policy correspondence. And these 218 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: were all the issues First Lady Hillary Clinton a selection 219 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: of issues that she was working on, and I remember 220 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: being stunned opening one folder and it was letters about 221 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: you were advocating for female genital mutilation it becoming illegal 222 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: for it to be practiced in this country, which it 223 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: wasn't illegal at the time. I looked at all these other, 224 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 1: you know, documents early childhood development and healthcare and women's 225 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: rights all over the world. I mean, it just spanned 226 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: so many really important substantive issues and I've I remember 227 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: being hooked almost from day one to the work to 228 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: the information. It was so interesting and it felt so important. Uh, 229 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: this notion of you know, serving people and helping people 230 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: around the world. And you know, when you're an intern 231 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: in the White House, the President and First Lady are 232 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: essentially these mythological figures. You know, you don't see or 233 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: hear from them personally very often. So the first time 234 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 1: I actually met you was re election night November. The 235 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: d n C had charted some planes for staff to 236 00:12:57,679 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: go down, and they'd offered interns an opportunity to buy 237 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: seat on that plane, and a group of interns went down, 238 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: and I remember walking around that lawn um as we 239 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: were gathering looking at the jumbo tron as the states 240 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: were called for President Clinton. I mean, it was politics 241 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: on steroids. I just remember feeling electrified. It just felt, 242 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, so exciting to be there. And after the 243 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: election was called, you both came down with the gores 244 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: and and worked a rope line. And I remember I 245 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: was pretty far back in the crowd, and I remember 246 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: pushing my way through and reaching my hand over the 247 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: shoulders of others, and I will never forget this moment. 248 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: You reached out through the crowd and you shook my hand. 249 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: You looked right at me and you said, thank you. 250 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: You have no idea was an enter in your office. 251 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: And I will forever remember that moment, and that experience 252 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: that I had is something that has stayed with me. 253 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 1: As you've met people around the world, as you've been 254 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: at these events and done rope lines, and people would say, oh, please, 255 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: please one more handshake. I would always try to say, 256 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: come on this side, shake that person's hand, because that 257 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: was you, that was your own experience. I still remember 258 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 1: my own sending. What that means. It isn't once in 259 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: a lifetime for many people, and for me, I had 260 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: the privilege of that being just the beginning. We're taking 261 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: a quick break. Stay with us. Well, you did such 262 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: an excellent job in my office, and you know, you 263 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: just developed a real reputation as a go to person, 264 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: and you know, we've had some amazing experiences all of 265 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: these years. Is there a favorite trip that we've taken 266 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: together that pops immediately to the front of your brain 267 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: when you think back. That is going to be very, 268 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: very difficult. So my first couple sort of stay in 269 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: my mind because I had no idea what I was doing, 270 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: and you were so patient with me. I remember the 271 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: first day they threw me in because the attitude a 272 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: little bit in our office was a little bit of 273 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: sink or swim, let's see if she can do it 274 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: and uh, And as you well know, I had a 275 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: hard time finding my voice. I whispered, you did not 276 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: speak up. I didn't I did I did not speak up. 277 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: But Um, when you were in the White House, I 278 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: remember UM staffing you on a trip to the Hague, 279 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: and as you were flying over, we got news that 280 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: King Hussein if Jordan had passed away, and you were 281 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: very close to you and the President were very close 282 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: to King Hussein and Queen Nora, and for me, as 283 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: a girl growing up in Saudi Arabia, he was sort 284 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: of this larger than live champion of peace. And I 285 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: remember you've landed in the Hague. We did a few 286 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: events and as you were leaving, you told me to 287 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: get on the plane and I went to that funeral 288 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: and you introduced me to Queen Nora, and this, I mean, 289 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: it was such a big moment for me just you know, personally, 290 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: it meant so much to be included. Um. And then 291 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: the trip to Israel, the fairy first trip to Israel 292 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: in December I made, and you were advancing. I was advancing, 293 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: And I think it's important for listeners to understand what 294 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: that means because people who work for those of us 295 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: in public life, for politics often are going to so 296 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: many different places and you need to send people ahead 297 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: to you know, really nail down the schedule to do 298 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: the walk throughs to figure out what's going to happen, 299 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: and of course, in my case, coordinate with the Secret 300 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: Service and everything that's going on. So here you are, 301 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: this Muslim American having grown up in Saudi Arabia. You're 302 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: sent to Israel to help advance the trip that Bill 303 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: and I, the President and I are going to take. 304 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: There is a moment in your book that ranks so 305 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: true to me, when you've been working closely with the 306 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: advanced team from the Israeli government and you're at a 307 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: meal with them. Describe that, because I found that to 308 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: be so poignant. I grew up in a in a 309 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: country where you know, certainly I did not know any Jews, 310 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: and then you know you Israel was very much the 311 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: other I mean, and this is in the eighties and 312 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: pasting into Fatto was underway. And so even though I 313 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: grew up in a house where my father says, you 314 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: have to explore the other, understand, you know, I didn't. 315 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: I didn't. I just thought there was a different way 316 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: of thinking or existence. I didn't know what I expected. Actually, 317 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: So to land in Jerusalem and we stayed at the 318 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: Jerusalem Hilton that very first trip, and to stand on 319 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: my balcony, and to look out at the Old City 320 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: and see, you know, the most important holy place for 321 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: Jews um, you know, the whaling Wall of Temple Mount. 322 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 1: To see one of the most important, you know, significant 323 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: sights for for Muslims, the Dome of the Rock. And 324 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: then to know this is where Jesus Christ took his 325 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: final steps on the Via della Rosa, somebody of faith 326 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: of you know, one of the monotheistic faiths. To just 327 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: stare at this space and they had all happened right here. 328 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: It was such an overwhelming experience. And not only that 329 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: I was there on behalf of an administration whose entire 330 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: motivation was to figure out how to get everyone to 331 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: live and work together. And then at the end of 332 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: this week going to lunch, and everybody else on the 333 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: delegation aside from me who had traveled from the White House, 334 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: were American Jews. I mean, it was obviously, you know, 335 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: everybody wanted to go, including me, and so I it 336 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: was funny because all of the name plates were names 337 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: like Shamir and stein and Rosenthal and Steinberg, and then 338 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,479 Speaker 1: Aberdeen was the last one. At the last meal we 339 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: had with the Israeli Foreign Ministry, We're sipping our mint 340 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: tea and the delegation official leans over to me and says, 341 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 1: you know, we really like this American delegation, but you're 342 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: our favorite because you're the most like us. Isn't that amazing? 343 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: And I remember sitting there thinking, yes, he's right. I 344 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: have this cultural connection. I know the food, I understand 345 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,239 Speaker 1: the language. You know. It was such a moment. I 346 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: found a letter I wrote to my mother on hotel 347 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: letter had saying this trip has changed me for or 348 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: changed my life. It was so meaningful. And then I mean, gosh, 349 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: we went to Iceland and we bought boots together. That 350 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: was a fun trip on that heated side. While he 351 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: went to Florence towards the end of the White House, 352 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: you were there for a Third Way conference. I remember, 353 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you got a black coat. We we 354 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: just had so much dancing in Morocco. Oh my gosh 355 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: at the Memmonia Hotel. I mean, there were so many 356 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: great meals. Oh my god. We ate around the world 357 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: and we continue to eat our way around the world. Boy, 358 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: you have fed me very well. I have to thank 359 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: you for that. Or the Saudia do you remember do 360 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: you remember the meal with the Saudi in his tent, 361 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: that tent in the desert a palace. It was the 362 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: biggest tent I had ever seen. It was when I 363 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: was Secretary of State and we were meeting with then 364 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: King Abdolah and he had all of his UH top officials. 365 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: I had my traveling party, plus the press, and they 366 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: laid out a meal for us in another part of 367 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: the tent. That was the biggest buffet I've ever seen. 368 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 1: It went around three sides of that big tent. Remember, 369 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: it was unbelievable, and they kept you know, you would 370 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: take a little bit, they don't. What's more, what's none 371 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: of us. It occurred to none of us to brief 372 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: you properly. This is actually my failure. You and the 373 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: king are walking along this buffet, and you had this 374 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: man with a tray behind you, and it had one 375 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 1: plate with empty spoons and then one empty plate for 376 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: the dirty spoons. And as you walk down the buffet, 377 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: you were meant to sample and then discard the spoon 378 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: and then tell the other gentleman I would like this, 379 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: and I would like that. And then you get to 380 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: the end. Then you sit down and they start bringing 381 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: you plates and plates. The foods you had sampled, and 382 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: you're like, no, I'm already full because you had basically 383 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: eaten at the buffet. And then I bring you your 384 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: cards over that you're supposed to, you know, raise with 385 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: his majesty, And as you're about to raise these points, 386 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: a TV screen come up from the middle of the 387 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: table and the soccer match. It was a soccer match, 388 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: so that nobody could overhear us. Right, that was a 389 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: strategy conversation. We'll be right back. So you probably know 390 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: better than anybody. What would people be most surprised about 391 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: traveling with me. I think the fact that I still 392 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: can't get over this. How you can like be getting 393 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: ready for a really big bilateral meeting or speech and 394 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: we're flying somewhere and then you just fall asleep in 395 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: the chair next to me, like when you were secretaries, 396 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: and it was like unbelievable, and then you wake up 397 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: you're like, Okay, I'm good, you know. I think maybe 398 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: the big secret that nobody knows is that everyone says 399 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: you're so well prepared, you're so briefed, and I don't 400 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: really I don't know. I think you you're either a 401 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: speed reader or you digest information. You just know a 402 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: lot of stuff because on those plane rides we spend 403 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: a lot of time eating lack and joking, teasing Philip 404 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: who was always asleep. Um, but the way you can 405 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: digest information, I think it's probably a big support. I've 406 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: had a lot of experiences, as you know. You know, 407 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: I did a recent master class about resilience and talked 408 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: about you know, what it's like to pick yourself up. 409 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: Everybody gets knocked down. We all have to figure out 410 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: how to keep going. And as part of that master class, 411 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: I interviewed you about mentorship and passing on some of 412 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: these lessons. But do you have advice about what to 413 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: do in the face of weariness and pessimism and discouragement 414 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: that you'd want to share for me? Every day I 415 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: get up, and maybe this is the result of being 416 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: raised in house with an ill parent. Every day I 417 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 1: wake up and I'm healthy. Um. I have gratitude just 418 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: to be alive and to be in this world. And 419 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: even on days when I thought things were really bad, 420 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: and boy, I have definitely had some experiences in my 421 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: life that are really bad. I am somehow able to 422 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: recognize that there are millions of people in this world 423 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: that have it worse than I do. And I think 424 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: that's what has kept me going. And for me, I 425 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: had the benefit of being raised by parents who I 426 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: think resilience is something that you build. I think you're 427 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: not just born with it. I think it can be 428 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: in cocaine. And and you've done that with your son. 429 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: Jordan's who I have just been overjoyed to get to 430 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 1: know and watching him grow up, and he is just 431 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: such a joyful, determined, you know young man, you know 432 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: to have. I was raised on a household of radical empathy. 433 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: I work for a boss who has radical empathy that 434 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: bosses you. My father, when he was twenty one, broke 435 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,719 Speaker 1: his back. He was an equestrian in the riding school 436 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: at university and he's forced through him and he fell 437 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: and he hurt his back and for a week was 438 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: crawling around and finally when his friends took him into 439 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: the doctor, uh, they said, have you been walking around 440 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: on a broken back? Like? That's the man who raised me. 441 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: And actually we took horse writing lessons when I was young, 442 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure I've ever told you the story. 443 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: And I was about fifteen. My horse Buttercup that I 444 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: was supposed to be doing my writing exercises inside the shed, 445 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 1: and Buttercup just snapped and I couldn't. We went into 446 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: a canter and I lost control and I was thrown 447 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: from my horse and landed right on my back. Both 448 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,719 Speaker 1: my parents were there, and they came running over, and 449 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: my mother, you know, immediately says, no, that's it, that's it. 450 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: This is too dangerous. You know. We were going home immediately. 451 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: And my father, who walked his whole life with a 452 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: hunchback because he broken his back, looks right at me 453 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: and he says, no, she has to get back on 454 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: that horse. I mean that determination that resolved. They made 455 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: sure I was okay. You know. I limped around a 456 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: little bit, but they got me back on Buttercup immediately, 457 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: and I remember I shaking. I was so scared, but 458 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: I didn't. And throughout my childhood, my parents would do that. 459 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: Go go talk to our guests in the living room, 460 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: Go read your poetry, Go call the travel agent and 461 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: find out about flights. I think it's so you're doing 462 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: that with Jordan too. I'm doing that with Jordan, not 463 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 1: as much as you know. I I think I intentionally 464 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 1: need to do more, but yes, I bring him along 465 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: with me places. You know clearly I value your advice, 466 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: your strategic thinking, your organizational ability, all of that. But 467 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: I want to ask the question that's on everybody's mind, 468 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: where did you get your fashion sense? I mean, here 469 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: you are, growing up mostly in Saudi Arabia, and in 470 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 1: the book you write about how you just loved reading 471 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: Vogue magazine and who knew years later you'd become a 472 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: close friend of Anna Wintour. But you know, from the 473 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: little I know about the time you were growing up, 474 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: you you know you were covered. That was expected except 475 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: in special occasions when you could be pretty much in 476 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: a very close private environment. So how did you end 477 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: up with this love of fashion? You wanted to be 478 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: an international correspondent like Christian I'm in poor But one 479 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: of the first things everybody notices about you is that 480 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: you really are an iconic fashionista yourself. So first of all, 481 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: I'd like to point out and when I'm wearing one 482 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: of my favorite all time accessories, and it is this 483 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: patent leather belt that first Lady Hillary Clinton gifted to 484 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: me as you were leaving the White House. Well, of course, 485 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: because I had outgrown its sad like and you know, 486 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: and by the way. It was mostly dented in one notch, 487 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: which was the thinnest, smallest things. One you wouldn't I 488 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: used to have a waste. I mean, any years since 489 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: I have seen it, but I know it's still so. 490 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: I know you, I know that there's this thing out 491 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: there you don't really care about fashion, but you do 492 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 1: have some exquisite pieces. Now, I don't have a memory 493 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: in my life where I didn't love something about dressing up. 494 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: I was definitely a girl's girl looking pretty and we're 495 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: hearing ribbons and Vogue magazine was my most prized possession 496 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: and I would tear out My mother was a beautiful seamstress. Beautiful. 497 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: I think it's one of the reasons I really love 498 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: clothes is my mother. I would see her, you know, 499 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: I would go to the material shops in the old 500 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: city in budd with her. I opened my my whole 501 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: story about you know, shopping in blod and you bolts 502 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: of fabric and chiffon and silk, and it was just 503 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: this magical you could create something extraordinary out of this material. 504 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: And watching my mother so and those Vogue magazines that 505 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: sort of really just became a bit of a you know, 506 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: fascination of mine in a way to express myself because 507 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: I was fairly quiet in my early twenties and beyond. Well, 508 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: you know. That brings me to this crazy idea that 509 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: people have been pitching us about a food and travel show. 510 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: But I think it should be food and fashion. And 511 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: I'm really into this, And I mean I can be 512 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: the total kind of nerd about this, because you know, 513 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: my idea of fashion is you know, pretty limited. Odd, 514 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: let's be honest. But I recognize it when I see it, 515 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: and I think that would be kind of fun. I 516 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: think here's what I think. I think we could do 517 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: a show where we travel around the world. I could 518 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: style you in different places and then I was shot 519 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: to myself. It would be both and then and then 520 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: we would go to some we would try some amazing food, 521 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: and then we would like have a hike somewhere. I 522 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: think that's like we both love hiking. We do love 523 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: walking and being outdoors. All right, this show. We gotta 524 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: figure out what the show would be called, though, Oh 525 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: my gosh, I don't know. I don't have no idea. 526 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: Hungary with human and Hillary. I think that's hilarious. That's 527 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: a great idea, you know, But this is part of 528 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: why you and I have been together so long, because 529 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: in the worst of times, we've always been able not 530 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: just to pick ourselves up, which sounds kind of, you know, 531 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: just utilitarian, like okay, one foot in front of the other, 532 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: but to find enjoyment and to force ourselves get outside 533 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: for that walk, go for that wonderful meal that you 534 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: know we want to enjoy together, Get a bunch of 535 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: people that you care about and that you want to 536 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: get to know together, and sit around at table and 537 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: then you know, you know, for me, it's really fun 538 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: to help people and find ways to help people. And 539 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: you have been a wonderful partner to me in this 540 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: because we used to get handed little slips of paper 541 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: that people would put in my hand or yours saying, 542 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: you know, can you help me with this problem with 543 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: my you know, child, or I've lost my job, or 544 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: I see an injustice somewhere, what can you do to 545 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: help me? And you know, so we also share that 546 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: it's that idea that you expressed earlier, radical empathy. You know, 547 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: when you try to put yourself into somebody else's experience 548 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: and I think you wanted to read something before I 549 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: do want to read and I. You know, we wrapped up, 550 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: and I want to end by asking you about what 551 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: your hopes are for the new year. But but I 552 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: want you to read that excerpt from your book. I 553 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: want to read the excerpt, and I do want to 554 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: recall all than many many hours and people one of 555 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: the things people asking about all the time. But two 556 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: things they asked me. Number one, what did she ask 557 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: you not to put in the book? What did she 558 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: say you couldn't put in? I said nothing, literally nothing. 559 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: It's all in there, including when she broke her elbow 560 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: and I saw it and fainted and peeting my pants, 561 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: and you said, go take care of her. Um. The 562 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: second thing people always asked me, what do you guys 563 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: talk about? You're always in these like secret conversations. You're 564 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: whispering in her ear, And how much time we would 565 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: spend with you saying, do you remember that woman I 566 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: met yesterday, you know at the coffee shop who had 567 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: that problem with there's son? How many of those quote 568 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: unquote secret conversations that we had that was about somebody else? 569 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: And I always share this with people, and they said, 570 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: you know what, what's it really like? You know? Camp 571 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: politics is so tough and you know, how can you 572 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: see optimistic? And I always say it's because I remember 573 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: following you around this country, starting in really into that 574 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: especially in two thousand and eight and two thousand and sixteen, 575 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: into people's homes, into coffee shops and school gymnasiums, And 576 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: as you're on that stage and then working that rope line, 577 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: we walk around, we talk to people. We are carrying 578 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: the hopes, dreams, fears, and aspirations of all of these people. 579 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: And think about the responsibility you felt on your shoulders 580 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: when you walked out of those events and got into 581 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: that car and got on that plane and went back 582 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: to Washington to serve wherever it was in the Senator beyond, 583 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: and how that motivated you to keep going and it 584 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: really inspired me to follow you. And so that's I 585 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: think what we spend a lot of our time, and 586 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: those whispering conversations that people talk about. So this is 587 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: one of my favorite passages in the book and uh 588 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: And it's towards the end of the book and I 589 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: write about all the things that um I have learned 590 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: from Hillary Clinton. I have learned all kinds of things, 591 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: how to be confident, brave, unfailingly empathetic, future focused, tough, 592 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: and gracious. She and I have had countless adventures over 593 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: the past twenty five years, and who knows what lies 594 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: in the future. But I am still certain about one thing. 595 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton would have been an exceptional president of the 596 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: United States, maybe one of the best presidents. I say 597 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: that with even more conviction and resolve today than when 598 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: I believed it as a starry eyed young woman. The 599 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: overarching quest of her public life has always been how 600 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: to help every man, woman, and child reach their full potential. 601 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: That purpose drove every policy rollout, every bill in the Senate, 602 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: every speech she delivered, every town and country she visited, 603 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: every book she wrote. Her focus was always how to 604 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: give each child the opportunity to grow and flourish, every 605 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: parent the tools to raise healthy, educated children, Every person 606 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: the right to live in dignity, every worker the protections 607 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: and rights to succeed and thrive. As president, she would 608 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: have done the tough things, the right things, the messy 609 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: but necessary things. She would have reached across the aisle 610 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: and forced divergent opinions to the table to help all Americans. 611 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: She would have served her country, not herself. Maybe it 612 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: won't happen in her lifetime or line, but I am 613 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: confident that history will remember her as one of the 614 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: American greats. It's my favorite passage in the book, and 615 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: I really well it goes on, but it means the 616 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: world to me because you know, you and I we've 617 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: spent I don't know by this time, millions of hours 618 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: together and it's given me a lot of confidence having 619 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: you by my side, um, during all those years. And 620 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: I'm so proud of you, and I'm so I'm so 621 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: not just excited, but grateful you wrote this book. It 622 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: is both your story and a universal story. Okay, so 623 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: what are your hopes for the new year, my friend? Well, 624 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: I hope to eat good food first and foremost. Um, 625 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:49,719 Speaker 1: I hope, But who did you would believe how honestly 626 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: you are like the Queen of Pasta. I'm looking forward 627 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: to the world. I also, I you know, I'm looking 628 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: forward to this seeing the end days of this pan Demmick. 629 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,479 Speaker 1: And as you and I have been talking about a 630 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: lot over the last few days and weeks, what can 631 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: we do as part of the mission that we are 632 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: on together to help other people, young people, young leaders? Like, 633 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: what are the ways that we can participate in the world. 634 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: And I'm excited to see about any new adventures. I mean, 635 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: you always, as I say, you're always the one who 636 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: comes up with these crazy ideas. I'm just along for 637 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: the ride, so ideas, um, but wishing everybody happy healthy 638 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: New Year. And I'm thrilled to be in this conversation 639 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: with you. It is a wonderful, wonderful opportunity for me to, 640 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: you know, not only have this conversation with you, but 641 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,959 Speaker 1: to underscore how special you are and how lucky I've 642 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: been to have you in my life, um, for all 643 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: these years. So let's just keep going, my friend, wherever 644 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: that journey leads us, uh to more food, more adventure, 645 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: more fashion, more fun, and more radical empathy. I couldn't 646 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 1: have set it better myself. Thank you so much. Whoma 647 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: Abideen's new memoir is called Both and A Life in 648 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: Many Worlds, and I promise you won't be able to 649 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: put it down. You and Me Both is brought to 650 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, 651 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Whoma Aberdeen, 652 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lona Vlmorro 653 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: and Benita Zalman. Our engineer is Zach McNeice, and original 654 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: music is by Forrest Gray. If you like you and 655 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: me both, tell someone else about it. 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