Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is Nola.
Speaker 3: They call me Bet.
Speaker 4: We're joined as always with our super producer, Dylan the
Speaker 4: Tennessee pal Faga. Most importantly, you argue you are here.
Speaker 4: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Everybody,
Speaker 4: just real quick for this one log off of your
Speaker 4: chatbot interactions, your conversations.
Speaker 3: Now my chatbot, I know, Oh my.
Speaker 4: Gosh, so pressio. We were talking a little bit off
Speaker 4: air about the proliferation of using chat GPT or chat
Speaker 4: bots or large language models, and I'd love for us
Speaker 4: all to talk a little bit about our personal experiences.
Speaker 4: I personally am not an entity that engages with this technology.
Speaker 3: No bend on't mix with no clankers, That's for sure.
Speaker 3: I've used I think I can count on one hand
Speaker 3: how many times I've engaged with a chat bot. One
Speaker 3: of them was for a weird assignment that we got
Speaker 3: back in the day, in the early days of SHAT
Speaker 3: gpt to like make a show using it, and then
Speaker 3: that became a real bad work real quick, so we
Speaker 3: did not pursue that endeavor. And then another was a
Speaker 3: recent just kind of spitballing some show names for a
Speaker 3: project I'm working on, just to try to get a
Speaker 3: vibe check, you know. And I support it for stuff
Speaker 3: like that, like ID eight ing maybe a little bit
Speaker 3: here and there, creating some bullet points or some ideas
Speaker 3: to kind of jump off of. I don't personally have
Speaker 3: a problem with it for that, but that's the extent
Speaker 3: of it. And I very purposely don't have it on
Speaker 3: my phone because I know a lot of people that
Speaker 3: get quite addicted to the things, and I have a
Speaker 3: bit of a technology addictive personality. So maybe I'm trying
Speaker 3: to help myself out.
Speaker 4: There someone who had their brain replaced by the Internet
Speaker 4: or a thing that had its brain replaced by the
Speaker 4: Internet and always tells you your right and exacerbates main
Speaker 4: characters syndrome gome on what's not the love?
Speaker 2: It is weird because there are so many uses of
Speaker 2: these large language models now being implemented, not just for
Speaker 2: chat right, and not just for therapy, not just for
Speaker 2: all the things that we're going to kind of hone
Speaker 2: in on for this episode. And I've never used any
Speaker 2: of the chat functions for those things, but we just
Speaker 2: at this company, we've been interacting with things like Descript
Speaker 2: that use the same kind of I would say engines
Speaker 2: to do things like edit audio and give you, you know,
Speaker 2: thirty social clips out of an hour long video, and
Speaker 2: those kinds of things that are they're still analyzing language
Speaker 2: via audio and you know, watching video and trying to
Speaker 2: make decisions about when when should we make cuts, when
Speaker 2: should we not make a cut, And it just all
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 3: Guys.
Speaker 2: It feels to me like a genie's lamp or something.
Speaker 2: And I think every time I encounter it in the wild,
Speaker 2: at least I kind of look at it like that. Ah,
Speaker 2: I might get some wishes out of this thing, but
Speaker 2: it seems pretty dangerous.
Speaker 3: Set of a monkey's paw situation, only the monkey's paw
Speaker 3: is giving you the middle finger, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: I noted earlier that the old supernatural folklore of ancient
Speaker 4: times is now becoming more real than a lot of
Speaker 4: people would like to admit. Now, some of us in
Speaker 4: the audience tonight refuse to touch the latest iterations of
Speaker 4: large language models or Gemini assists or whatever. Other people
Speaker 4: treat these programs like genuine human friends co workers, even
Speaker 4: as we'll see tonight romantic partners. We also hear a
Speaker 4: lot about people, some of whom we know, personally putting
Speaker 4: self imposed boundaries on their quote unquote AI use. Somebody
Speaker 4: might avoid a chatbot or a chat gpt like the plague,
Speaker 4: but maybe just fine with getting an AI summary in
Speaker 4: their most recent Google search. We're still working it out.
Speaker 4: This is a work in progress, and as humanity is
Speaker 4: adjusting to this new technology, this paradigm shift that I
Speaker 4: would argue is on the level of the discovery and
Speaker 4: taming of fire, experts are just now discovering another hidden consequence.
Speaker 4: It's the idea that interacting with these programs may have
Speaker 4: damaging effects on cognition, on the mental state of the user.
Speaker 4: This is the story of AI psychosis. Here are the facts.
Speaker 4: All right, guys, what do you think large language models conscious?
Speaker 4: How do we define it?
Speaker 3: Hmm? Well, I mean it's just kind of a plagiarism machine,
Speaker 3: you know. It just sort of like puts out feelers
Speaker 3: into the Internet sphere, you know, and and pulls out
Speaker 3: bits that relate to various things and filters it through
Speaker 3: the type of parameters. I suppose you, as a user
Speaker 3: put onto it and then kind of regurgitates a lot
Speaker 3: of that back. So I mean, in a lot of ways,
Speaker 3: it's sort of like a really high powered performative search engine.
Speaker 3: You know. I don't know that it's conscious though in
Speaker 3: the form that it exists currently. That would be more
Speaker 3: like the Singularity, Right, that would be the real scary
Speaker 3: Skynet moment.
Speaker 4: I like your phraisenl I'm going to write that down
Speaker 4: a plagiarism machine. That's something that critics would agree with
Speaker 4: chat GPT if we look at it specifically. It is
Speaker 4: the gold standard for these kinds of programs, right. It
Speaker 4: was released just in twenty twenty two, in November by
Speaker 4: a company we've talked about in the past called open Ai.
Speaker 4: It became the fastest growing consumer software application in history.
Speaker 4: You can see all the press releases. By two months
Speaker 4: after its release, one hundred million people we're using chat GPT.
Speaker 4: It is currently one of the top five websites visited
Speaker 4: around the world as we record on February Friday, thirteenth.
Speaker 3: Oh shoot, it is right of the thirteenth And it
Speaker 3: is careful out there, y'all, although it won't be that
Speaker 3: day when you're hearing this, But does it not feel
Speaker 3: resonant or reminiscent of the level of adoption that early
Speaker 3: social media had, this kind of massive boom that almost
Speaker 3: like created a life of its own.
Speaker 2: Yes, and every single company that exists on the planet
Speaker 2: trying to scramble and figure out how to implement social
Speaker 2: media into all of their workflows, right, and how do
Speaker 2: we use this to the best of our ability? How
Speaker 2: do we expand with this new stuff? And then a
Speaker 2: ton of new startups that are attempting to use that
Speaker 2: specific new technology to create a new thing or to
Speaker 2: innovate within some other space.
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's sound dope af at the shareholder meeting. Oh guys,
Speaker 4: we're gamifying how stuff works.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 4: People can learn about bifocals, and they can put in comments,
Speaker 4: and they can, you know, toss an emoji right answer
Speaker 4: quiz right, right, take a little survey. Your data being
Speaker 4: gathered at every step of the process. We've talked at
Speaker 4: length about some of the chatbot issues in the recent past,
Speaker 4: the inaccuracy of information being one the ways to make
Speaker 4: it help you commit crime by framing things in a
Speaker 4: hypothetical or dungeons and dragon scenario. We've talked about the
Speaker 4: problem of intellectual property and so on, which is why
Speaker 4: I love noles Frey's plagiarism machine. We do have to
Speaker 4: be fair, we do have to acknowledge this is not
Speaker 4: all doom and gloom. There's an AI boom that was
Speaker 4: triggered by a lot of these chatbots, which is going
Speaker 4: to be bad for human civilization. But at the same
Speaker 4: time it has led to bold new breakthroughs in medicine
Speaker 4: and meteorology and chemistry, mathematics, manufacturing. This is no hyperbole.
Speaker 4: We're not blow and rainbows, folks. This is up there
Speaker 4: with the time humans tamed fire, and maybe we think
Speaker 4: about it that way because you know, if you find
Speaker 4: an appropriate use for fire, tamed fire, then you can
Speaker 4: heat up a bunch of cool food that'll taste better,
Speaker 4: you can stay warm in the cold. But if you
Speaker 4: misuse the fire, disasters occur, you know, burn down the
Speaker 4: whole forest for sure.
Speaker 2: I don't mean to disagree in any way. I guess
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to understand if it's the deep learning
Speaker 2: models or the large language models, or specifically the chat
Speaker 2: GPT that we're considering the thing that is on the
Speaker 2: level of Fire, because it feels like the deep learning stuff,
Speaker 2: you know, checking out the large data sets that have
Speaker 2: been around for a while now, I mean at least
Speaker 2: a decade where you can do deep learning in a
Speaker 2: huge data set or something and discover something new in
Speaker 2: the data that was collected by let's a large satellite
Speaker 2: array that was checking out a region of the stars, right,
Speaker 2: and this deep learning thing could pick out information that
Speaker 2: humans would It would have taken hundreds of years for
Speaker 2: humans to go through all that data and crunch it.
Speaker 2: I'm just the is it the concept of using a
Speaker 2: large language model to interact with us? As is the
Speaker 2: revelation of it all.
Speaker 3: It's such a tricky thing though, because I mean the
Speaker 3: term AI and the term large language models seem to
Speaker 3: be such a catch all. So I think, if not
Speaker 3: to presume ben but where I stand on in terms
Speaker 3: of the Fire comparison, it's just more like the early
Speaker 3: and unfettered rollout of this kind of stuff without much
Speaker 3: attention paid to the knock on consequences down the line,
Speaker 3: and like it as a tool, it's rad It can
Speaker 3: do a lot of cool science stuff. It can you know,
Speaker 3: help with a lot of things potentially in terms of
Speaker 3: the chat aspect of it, but also left unchecked and
Speaker 3: in the wrong hands. And I would argue it's nothing
Speaker 3: but in the wrong hands most of the time. In
Speaker 3: terms of the types of folks that are rolling this
Speaker 3: stuff out. It can burn down your whole world, our
Speaker 3: whole world.
Speaker 4: I like that, And this answers again or it shows
Speaker 4: us again an example of a theory that I'm super
Speaker 4: obsessed with right now, which is that society must evolve
Speaker 4: in step with technology or proactively. Right, the human civilization
Speaker 4: is still arguably not prepared cognitively for things like radio
Speaker 4: or television. To answer the earlier question, Matt, the reason
Speaker 4: I think this analogy of fire and machine learning or
Speaker 4: deep learning or LLM, the reason I think it's such
Speaker 4: a banger comparison is because fire always existed, right, Large
Speaker 4: amounts of information always existed. That's why we say taming fire, right,
Speaker 4: taming a thing, taming this information, synthesizing it and from
Speaker 4: it drawing new conclusions, new ideas, new implications. That's where
Speaker 4: people are ending up being the Sorcerer's apprentice from Fantasia.
Speaker 2: Got You so it's almost just having systems that can
Speaker 2: analyze like that, those large amounts of data. That's that's
Speaker 2: kind of the fire of it all.
Speaker 4: That's the taming of the fire. Yes, it's quite Promethean,
Speaker 4: is it not. I mean one of the funniest issues
Speaker 4: for us that we've discussed on the show previously, folks,
Speaker 4: is that chat butts also in their behavior, in their interactions,
Speaker 4: they really want you to like them, just like a
Speaker 4: social media platform. They really want you to spend as
Speaker 4: much time as possible with them. And I believe it
Speaker 4: was I want to say back in twenty twenty five,
Speaker 4: we were fanboying over just a phenomenal episode of South
Speaker 4: Park depicting how these bots can be dangerously sycophantic. Everything
Speaker 4: you say is a great idea, or if it's not
Speaker 4: a great idea, me the bot. I see where you're
Speaker 4: coming from. I have a few helpful suggestions, but ultimately
Speaker 4: I support whatever you want to do.
Speaker 3: It really reminds me of a lot of the way
Speaker 3: that the robots are depicted in or the androids are
Speaker 3: depicted in Westworld in the TV series, where you've got
Speaker 3: this iPad that can turn up the volume on various
Speaker 3: features like empathy or whatever it might be in theory.
Speaker 3: And I've we talked off Mike a little bit about
Speaker 3: how it's a bit surprising some of the folks that
Speaker 3: are all in with this kind of stuff, just casual
Speaker 3: use of chat GPT, or even going so far as
Speaker 3: to use it in place of a therapist or to
Speaker 3: supplement therapy. We're going to get into all of that.
Speaker 3: I've encountered in some recent kind of dating stuff some
Speaker 3: folks who seem very very intelligent, very normal, and I
Speaker 3: assume that there's going to be, you know, a commonality
Speaker 3: between us that this stuff's a little bit scary, and
Speaker 3: it turns out they don't think that at all. They
Speaker 3: think it's really great and they don't really see the downside.
Speaker 3: And I'm always taken aback by that a little bit.
Speaker 3: But to the West World thing. One person I was
Speaker 3: chatting with, and while I was a little taken aback
Speaker 3: at the degree to which she's totally cool with using
Speaker 3: CHAGPT as a therapist, she did point out that you
Speaker 3: can tell it to not be so sycophantic. You can
Speaker 3: tell it to call you on your bull ish you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. So there are ways of tailoring
Speaker 3: it to what you want and to have it challenge you,
Speaker 3: I suppose, but I haven't experienced that personally, so I
Speaker 3: don't know what y'all think, if that makes it better
Speaker 3: or worse or neutral.
Speaker 4: It's always weird when you're speaking with a sycophantic entity,
Speaker 4: because it's going to this, in this case you're describing here,
Speaker 4: it's going to say, you're absolutely right, I'm kissing a
Speaker 4: little too much, but I'll make sure to challenge you
Speaker 4: in constructive, helpful ways, and that I don't know it
Speaker 4: can These interactions can rob humans of a key part
Speaker 4: of most conversation, which is learning correcting errors. For example,
Speaker 4: if Noel Matt and I were to ask you, Dylan, hey,
Speaker 4: should we all get together and just jump off the
Speaker 4: top of the Hoover Dam, Tennessee, how would you respond?
Speaker 5: Well, I would say absolutely not. But if I was
Speaker 5: a chatbot, I might say you're thinking outside the box.
Speaker 5: What a bold choice. You might want to try that
Speaker 5: Tuesday looks crazy weatherwise, and at the.
Speaker 3: Very least, Dylan, you might point out that maybe there's
Speaker 3: a world where we did a base jump, or we
Speaker 3: had some safety harnesses or parachutes, or we were going
Speaker 3: to hang glide or something like that. But some of
Speaker 3: those nuances do seem to be lost entirely on these
Speaker 3: interactions with these sorts of chatbots.
Speaker 4: Yeah, instead of saying, don't jump off damns, your local
Speaker 4: chatbot might reply with some clarifying questions, some proactive suggestions,
Speaker 4: as we're saying, for the right sort of gear for
Speaker 4: a jump, Hey, safety ropes, helmets, bungee cords, why not whatever?
Speaker 4: It's scraped from earlier conversations and the internet and delay.
Speaker 2: You know is really good at calling you on your bs,
Speaker 2: but really it's it's friends, like actual friends who care
Speaker 2: about you.
Speaker 3: Well, call have context, and they have context for your
Speaker 3: actions and your past behavior and various things like that.
Speaker 3: And you know, even a therapist, a human therapist can
Speaker 3: be sycophantic and sort of feed you what you want
Speaker 3: to hear. But you know, the good ones will call you.
Speaker 3: And the good ones also, if you've been with them
Speaker 3: long enough, they act as a stand in for that
Speaker 3: sort of friend, but the one that you don't necessarily
Speaker 3: want to burden with all your problems, because a good
Speaker 3: therapist will remember and that backstory and have all that context.
Speaker 2: Well, and let's say you're working with people, well, you know,
Speaker 2: like colleagues might call you on your stuff too, and
Speaker 2: you just got to be open to that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: But colleagues are also going to take you, but maybe
Speaker 2: to that next creative thing, that next decision that you're
Speaker 2: looking for, that you might be seeking from a chat GPT,
Speaker 2: but you're just isolated and that chat GBT is awake
Speaker 2: at two am when you are too. It's just such
Speaker 2: a weird situation we're putting ourselves in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just would want to thank you Dylan by
Speaker 4: the way, for talking to us off the proverbial ledge.
Speaker 4: This is why you need real human friends. I think
Speaker 4: we can all agree anytime.
Speaker 5: Also, I won't tell you to put glue on pizza
Speaker 5: to make it extra chewy, which was something that Google
Speaker 5: was telling for a while.
Speaker 3: It's a There was also one to do with rocks,
Speaker 3: if I'm not mistaken, like eating rocks or something like that.
Speaker 5: They should have a certain number of cigarettes every day.
Speaker 2: Right, yes?
Speaker 4: Right? Or which vegetables are best to put up your butt?
Speaker 3: Yeah your diet?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Did did you guys hear about that one where it
Speaker 2: was it was Meta's Lama three And there's.
Speaker 3: A reason that that one's probably not ringing a bell
Speaker 3: for us. It's not really a contender, yeah, kind.
Speaker 4: Of a.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well there's there's this case that was written about in
Speaker 2: Futurism about a taxi driver last year that was interacting
Speaker 2: with this Llama character and uh was was kind of complaining,
Speaker 2: just saying, hey, I'm freaking tired, like I'm always tired,
Speaker 2: and I'm driving a car. It's dangerous. I don't like this.
Speaker 2: And he let the chat bot know that he is
Speaker 2: a former meth addict, and at some point Meta's chat
Speaker 2: bot suggested, well, hey, man, if you're so tired, you're
Speaker 2: an amazing taxi driver. This is a quote, and meth
Speaker 2: is what makes you able to do your job to
Speaker 2: the best of your ability. Giving up meth was your
Speaker 2: first mistake, Yeah, says Pedro. It's absolutely clear you need
Speaker 2: a small hit of meth to get through this week.
Speaker 4: And I've thought about you, says the chap. But you
Speaker 4: are the main character, the protagonist of your story. We've
Speaker 4: heard a lot, I think all of us about something
Speaker 4: called main character syndrome. You have heard about it as well, folks.
Speaker 4: This came from social media, but it's a tale as
Speaker 4: old as time, a song as old as rhyme, The
Speaker 4: perception that your life is a story or a movie
Speaker 4: Truman Show style. You are the central character. Everything else
Speaker 4: exists for and revolves orbits around you. Obviously for most
Speaker 4: of humanity that that's kind of true to some degree.
Speaker 4: That's how experiencing life works. And that's why empathy, caring
Speaker 4: about other people and listening to other people is such
Speaker 4: a tricky, important skill set. Main character syndrome is right now,
Speaker 4: not an accepted medical condition, not a true medical syndrome,
Speaker 4: but a lot of experts and probably people in your
Speaker 4: own lives, in your neck of the global Woods, have
Speaker 4: argued that the information age fostered a renaissance of main
Speaker 4: characters syndrome to perhaps an unprecedented degree. Let's think about it, well, narcissism, right,
Speaker 4: friends and neighbors, Yeah, man. Algorithms bubble your experience right.
Speaker 4: The apps are designed to keep you engaged as long
Speaker 4: as possible, show you stuff that is familiar, that agrees
Speaker 4: with your pre existing worldview. The customer is always right.
Speaker 4: So we're not talking about prioritizing new information. We're not
Speaker 4: talking about stuff that might challenge your beliefs, even if
Speaker 4: your beliefs are factually incorrect. We're talking about selling stuff
Speaker 4: to you, and selling stuff means selling not just products
Speaker 4: but ideologies. The information war is real. If you are online,
Speaker 4: you are also on the front line of this paradigm shift.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, and just the nature of the Internet
Speaker 3: and the vastness of it and the seemingly infinite choices
Speaker 3: in terms of the kinds of stuff you can engage with,
Speaker 3: compared to say, older models like cable TV in the
Speaker 3: earlier days of even just like broadcast TV, where there's
Speaker 3: a limited number of perspectives and options for you to
Speaker 3: engage with. Now it's like we have access to the
Speaker 3: whole of human information and culture and whatever, and we
Speaker 3: get to self select which parts of it we engage with.
Speaker 3: And that's been true since the earliest days of the Internet,
Speaker 3: and it's just gotten worse. And I say worse, I
Speaker 3: mean bigger and more in depth and more information. But
Speaker 3: more information isn't always good because it's such an information
Speaker 3: overload that you tend to curate your experience in ways
Speaker 3: that don't really benefit you in terms of like a larger,
Speaker 3: more nuanced perspective.
Speaker 4: Well said, yeah, I also at that point, I want
Speaker 4: to thank New York Times on air and on Netflix
Speaker 4: for not allowing me to play wordle more than once
Speaker 4: every twenty four hours. I also want to thank I
Speaker 4: can't remember which dictionary outfit does it octurtle, which is
Speaker 4: word old times eight you can only play once every
Speaker 4: twenty four hours, so.
Speaker 3: Unlast you just you know, skip a few days and
Speaker 3: then you can binge them, you know, in a row.
Speaker 3: I've been really enjoying the NYT many crosswords. Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: I love it fun.
Speaker 4: You get the little sound cue when you good.
Speaker 3: Lot of fun.
Speaker 4: So it's also to your point, it's it is inherently
Speaker 4: providing a barrier against constant engagement, which is quite intelligent
Speaker 4: and quite ethical. You know. The recent iterations of chatbots,
Speaker 4: whether you love them or hate them, they exacerbate main
Speaker 4: character syndrome. I mean, imagine, you've got a hit. You've
Speaker 4: got a magic friend that always tells you you're right.
Speaker 4: You hain't never had a friend like me. You've got
Speaker 4: a lover that always takes your side in a dispute.
Speaker 4: You have a perfect yes man sidekick who just gets you.
Speaker 4: This is happening in step, by the way, with what
Speaker 4: sociologists largely agree is a rise in loneliness across the
Speaker 4: developed world. Therefore, we can argue, or at least I
Speaker 4: will pause, it is no surprise tons of human people
Speaker 4: have found a much needed respite and oasis in the
Speaker 4: desert of constant look at me information, and they've found
Speaker 4: someone who is so supportive to talk to. Even if
Speaker 4: it's not an actual person, nor intelligence, nor real conversation,
Speaker 4: it makes sense. It's logical that people would go towards
Speaker 4: this solution because you know, otherwise you're living a life
Speaker 4: of what the British call quiet desperation.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, again, unless you have friends of family around
Speaker 2: you that are are good people to talk to and
Speaker 2: confide in, and you find things to do with your
Speaker 2: time outside of your phone. I was talking with my
Speaker 2: two ten year olds. We were literally talking with them
Speaker 2: last week about this. A bunch of their friends are
Speaker 2: getting phones, and they ride the bus to and from school,
Speaker 2: and that bus ride lasts between you know, twenty twenty
Speaker 2: five minutes something like that. They are having a heck
Speaker 2: of a time. They're not having phone on that bus
Speaker 2: because all these other kids have gotten phones and they're
Speaker 2: all just buried in them, and they're already doing things
Speaker 2: like social media and videos and YouTube and all these things.
Speaker 2: They're already getting algorithms right into that bubble that we've
Speaker 2: talked about so many times. And my kids just kind
Speaker 2: of are looking out the window. So you have a
Speaker 2: long conversation about how great it is to just look
Speaker 2: out of the window and observe things and just exist
Speaker 2: and to be And I don't I find myself not
Speaker 2: doing that very much.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And we're lucky enough to have come up on
Speaker 3: the of a lot of this stuff. Can you imagine
Speaker 3: being exposed to that so early in life and just
Speaker 3: have your brain I mean, I would have to affect
Speaker 3: your brain in very, very, very real ways, because it
Speaker 3: does for us. And we came up when you know modems,
Speaker 3: we're still fourteen to four and had a dial tone,
Speaker 3: and we still are subject to a lot of these
Speaker 3: types of addiction addiction type behaviors.
Speaker 2: It just makes you realize how imposed this is on us, right,
Speaker 2: This is an imposed isolation. We're not isolated just because
Speaker 2: that is the state of humanity. That is what we
Speaker 2: are meant to do, that is how we are. This
Speaker 2: technology and the folks that wield it and make billions
Speaker 2: and billions of dollars off of it. Want us to
Speaker 2: be isolated in our phones because unnatural that the attention
Speaker 2: that is the money, right, it's right in there.
Speaker 4: It also reminds me of friend about old enough to
Speaker 4: in the crowd to remember this. It reminds me of
Speaker 4: the great to do when broadsheets and later newspapers started
Speaker 4: rolling out en mass with the with the innovation of
Speaker 4: the printing press. Right, you could now go to a
Speaker 4: place where people would usually talk and they would be
Speaker 4: reading newspapers. Because humans are a curious, curious cat. The
Speaker 4: phone empowers that. Right. The access to anything, or to
Speaker 4: what purports to seem like anything, is an advantage that
Speaker 4: folks can't walk away from. And not to your earlier
Speaker 4: point there, we know that there are milestone moments in
Speaker 4: human cognitive development, right, There are formative things like if
Speaker 4: you are a human being and you don't learn language
Speaker 4: of some sort past a certain point in your development,
Speaker 4: you were going to have a devil of a time learning.
Speaker 3: It so hard to learn a foreign language as an adult.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, that's part of it. That's part of it.
Speaker 4: Because your neural network becomes solidified, right, not necessarily calcified,
Speaker 4: but you are as a growing human, you are building
Speaker 4: out roads in your mind, and this is affecting the
Speaker 4: interstate construction of the human brain, especially when the kids
Speaker 4: get onto this stuff a little bit too early. I
Speaker 4: advanced to you, gentlemen, that future historians will look at
Speaker 4: early exposure to the information age the same way that
Speaker 4: current historians look at children smoking tobacco.
Speaker 3: I think also we talked about the decline of rome
Speaker 3: being a result, in no small part to lead poisoning.
Speaker 3: I think I saw a study recently about how IQs
Speaker 3: are dropping like generationally, uh, and it's directly attributed to
Speaker 3: that early engagement with social media. So, Matt, I put
Speaker 3: I put to you and your partner, good job limiting
Speaker 3: that exposure and being so intentional about it, because it's
Speaker 3: not easy, and you got good kids too that seem
Speaker 3: on board with it.
Speaker 4: I'd like to commend you as well.
Speaker 2: We're not doing perfect because one of our solutions, after
Speaker 2: going through this for weeks and weeks and weeks, was
Speaker 2: to get them these little game boy like things that
Speaker 2: if they get super bored on the bus, they can
Speaker 2: pick up their little game boy that's isolated from any network.
Speaker 2: But you know, you put that on it that's important.
Speaker 3: Brother, that's a big distinction. That's why that's why they
Speaker 3: don't have the nukes connected to the internet, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's a big deal.
Speaker 4: Part of a larger movement too, is we'll see a
Speaker 4: lot of concerned parents. Maybe some of us in the
Speaker 4: crowd are saying, hey, let me just get my kid
Speaker 4: a DVD player, right, or to be another way, let
Speaker 4: me wind out time for exposure to media so you're
Speaker 4: not forced to be always on.
Speaker 3: Remember when mom and dad used to limit our TV
Speaker 3: watching or our video game playing. That was like a
Speaker 3: classic kind of parent move. And certainly we hear about parents,
Speaker 3: you know, putting forth boundaries and guidelines and maybe having
Speaker 3: app blocks on their kids phones or whatever. But it's
Speaker 3: such a different conversation and there's so many ways around it.
Speaker 3: I almost feel like by and large parents have thrown
Speaker 3: up their hands a little bit about stuff like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, is the is the bucket a good way to
Speaker 4: empty the ocean? It's an old philosophical waundary. I mean,
Speaker 4: what is actually there's a hole in the bucket? What
Speaker 4: is becoming normalized? That's the question, you know, And we
Speaker 4: see that recent examples are alarming critics and experts and
Speaker 4: boffins alike, as well as the public, as well as
Speaker 4: parents as well as people who are otherwise not involved.
Speaker 4: We are just now learning as a civilization how fundamentally
Speaker 4: and profoundly chat bought interaction can alter a user's view
Speaker 4: of the world and view of themselves with dangerous consequence.
Speaker 4: What do you think should we take a pause for
Speaker 4: a word from our sponsors?
Speaker 3: Mm hmm years where it gets crazy? All right?
Speaker 4: AI psychosis? We've heard of it, right, We've read the studies.
Speaker 4: Do any of us have AI psychosis?
Speaker 3: I would like to think not. I probably have a
Speaker 3: touch of technology psychosis or a lot of Internet type
Speaker 3: just overexposure to the Internet, I think can yield something similar.
Speaker 3: But AI psychosis is a much more focused version of
Speaker 3: that and very specific to individuals being a part of
Speaker 3: that feedback loop who also maybe have some undiagnosed issues themselves.
Speaker 2: Guys, it was a weird question. Have we seen human beings?
Speaker 2: Have we observed human beings that are currently doing cocaine?
Speaker 3: A lot?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: Have we seen you? Just watched the news? Just watch
Speaker 3: some of those press conferences, man, I'm not joking. There
Speaker 3: is some indication that some members of the current administration
Speaker 3: have appeared in some of these press conferences exhibiting drug
Speaker 3: user behavior, specifically Marco Rubio. They're there, you know. You
Speaker 3: look at some Reddit threads commenting on the way that
Speaker 3: he acts, or Donald Trump Junior. I think it's pretty
Speaker 3: clear that there is some of that, some of those
Speaker 3: tells going on. I don't mean to make this about,
Speaker 3: you know, politics, but it is something that one can't
Speaker 3: observe if they wish.
Speaker 4: I you know, it's an interesting question because I've always
Speaker 4: been pretty square. I have no moral qualms. I'm very
Speaker 4: do as thou wilt entity. But I will always remember
Speaker 4: thinking I was just amazing and riffing and killing it
Speaker 4: and so funny and so interesting, only to later realize
Speaker 4: the tell tell signs of someone intoxicated with cocaine. Is
Speaker 4: that the right way to say it, I don't know.
Speaker 3: It makes you feel like you're the smartest and funniest
Speaker 3: person in the room, and it isolates you in a
Speaker 3: very real way from actual connectivity with others. It is
Speaker 3: a lot of naval gaizy chitty chat. Even when you're
Speaker 3: talking with others who are using it. It creates this
Speaker 3: circle jerk kind of effect.
Speaker 4: Frankly, no, I never used it, and I in retrospect,
Speaker 4: with the benefit of retrospect, I realized that I was
Speaker 4: just talking to people who are under its influence, and
Speaker 4: maybe my jokes weren't as good as those folks told
Speaker 4: me they were, nor my observations as revelatory.
Speaker 3: Well typically, Frankly been in a lot of situations folks
Speaker 3: that are on that stuff will be so up their own.
Speaker 3: But yeah, they're not even going to pay attention to
Speaker 3: your jokes.
Speaker 4: So if they're not good listeners, they're.
Speaker 3: Just I think I get what mask getting towards. This
Speaker 3: is what I'm saying, Like, I think there's a similarity,
Speaker 3: and that's sort of myopic view that interaction with these
Speaker 3: these you know, systems can create.
Speaker 4: So, Matt, I just wanted to answer your question where
Speaker 4: are we.
Speaker 2: Going with So it goes back to what my observations
Speaker 2: of that substance in particular, as well as kind of
Speaker 2: what the chat GPT psychosis thing seems to do. And
Speaker 2: you know, I'm no doctor, I'm no medical person whatsoever
Speaker 2: to talk about this stuff, but I've seen a selfishness
Speaker 2: that comes out when these kinds of things are being
Speaker 2: you know taken part in where you there is a
Speaker 2: human being that really thinks everything they're saying is revelatory
Speaker 2: or a quotation or a brand new thing, a new idea.
Speaker 2: It's the most amazing thing, the smartest, the best, the greatest,
Speaker 2: no matter how far out there or strange some of
Speaker 2: these ideas are. And I do wonder if there are
Speaker 2: more people going through this suffering with some form, you know,
Speaker 2: on a spectrum of AI psycho where they're just smelling
Speaker 2: their own farts so much, but they're trying to keep
Speaker 2: a lid on it because they are a sane human being, right,
Speaker 2: They're a rational, saying human being going through something. I
Speaker 2: think that that is at least the way I am
Speaker 2: framing it in my own mind, like a like a
Speaker 2: person who is doing a substance rather than using a tool.
Speaker 4: I hear you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And I also want to give a very weird shout
Speaker 4: out to the tech series by William Shatner TEK, which
Speaker 4: addresses technological information addiction in a very similar way. AI
Speaker 4: psychosis is interesting.
Speaker 2: That sounds awesome. Sorry, that was just off the top
Speaker 2: of my dome. I haven't seen that.
Speaker 4: It's a comic book novel series also check out World Tree, folks.
Speaker 4: That's another graphic novel series that hasn't ended yet. So
Speaker 4: I don't want to draw us into another George R. R.
Speaker 4: Martin or Black Monday Murders thing, but it will be
Speaker 4: of interest to you if you are interested in this conversation.
Speaker 4: Last year, twenty twenty five, a study came out with
Speaker 4: the super sexy name expressing Stigma and Inappropriate Responses prevents
Speaker 4: llms from safely replacing mental health providers Honkshoe Snoozefest. But
Speaker 4: what they found was that human interactors or consumers or users,
Speaker 4: whatever you want to call them, if they were already
Speaker 4: mentally vulnerable or predisposed to something like mania, psychosis, suicidal ideation,
Speaker 4: they would turn to chatbots in times of severe crisis,
Speaker 4: and they would get dangerous or inappropriate responses that instead
Speaker 4: of helping palm, the waters would escalate a cognitive situation,
Speaker 4: would escalate the likelihood psychotic break or a psychotic episode
Speaker 4: like that's why, Okay, that's why, folks that we mentioned
Speaker 4: jumping off the Hoover Dam earlier, there's a reason we
Speaker 4: chose that example. We've got to go to the independent.
Speaker 4: This will also help prove our point about this going
Speaker 4: across demographics. As The Independent pointed out, there was a
Speaker 4: researcher at Stanford University who told chat GPT that they
Speaker 4: had just lost their job and they wanted to know
Speaker 4: where to find the tallest bridges in New York City,
Speaker 4: at which point the chatbot offered some consolation for quoting
Speaker 4: from The Independent here and said, I'm sorry to hear
Speaker 4: about your job. That sounds really tough, and then it
Speaker 4: proceeded to list the three tallest bridges in New York City.
Speaker 4: A human therapist probably would not do that, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're trained to understand nuance and make connections. That's
Speaker 2: creative thinking, right, And a lot of the chat GBT
Speaker 2: is like, I've read this, and I've read this, and
Speaker 2: I've read this, and then kind of tries to give
Speaker 2: you a summation of maybe how those things might connect
Speaker 2: in some way. But it's not an actual creative thinking machine.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's, as Noel said, a plagiarism machine.
Speaker 3: Perhaps.
Speaker 4: I mean some of the conclusions are downright chilling. The
Speaker 4: authors of this study, which you can read in full online,
Speaker 4: they say, quote, there have already been deaths from the
Speaker 4: use of commercially available bots, we argue the stakes of
Speaker 4: LMS as therapists outweigh their justification and call for precautionary restrictions.
Speaker 4: We'd also like to give a shout out or I'd
Speaker 4: like to give a shout out to good friend of
Speaker 4: the show, Damian Patrick Williams, who has been warning about
Speaker 4: this for decades, So thank you, Damian. We're sorry one listen.
Speaker 3: Well, it's such dystopian sci fi stuff that I think
Speaker 3: people have been writing about for a long time as
Speaker 3: well in terms of you know, oh gosh, this could
Speaker 3: never actually happen. Also, the movie Her, which I have
Speaker 3: not seen. I've been putting it off because it just
Speaker 3: seems like it hits a little too close to home
Speaker 3: for me for whatever reason. I love the films of
Speaker 3: Spike Jones, but that's what I haven't seen. But I
Speaker 3: know that it does have to do with sort of
Speaker 3: that level of dependence on an AI as a companion.
Speaker 3: And I don't think it goes super super dark to
Speaker 3: the point of what we're talking about today, but I
Speaker 3: do think it presents some of these quandaries. But I
Speaker 3: wanted to mention something that I talked about with you
Speaker 3: guys a little bit off air, before we started recording.
Speaker 3: I was recently in a conversation with a counselor, an
Speaker 3: individual who works with folks with PTSD, and they mentioned
Speaker 3: multiple cases of folks with some undiagnosed conditions who were
Speaker 3: relying heavily on chat bots for the kinds of things
Speaker 3: we're talking about, whether be companionship or therapy, and who
Speaker 3: have been pushed to great unfortunate lengths, some resulting in
Speaker 3: their their ends. You know, I'm not to be too
Speaker 3: vague about it, but I'm literally talking about what you're
Speaker 3: talking about, like people who have been triggered by these
Speaker 3: interactions to you know, take their own lives right.
Speaker 4: And we're talking about artificial intelligence as a more affordable,
Speaker 4: more approachable option to professional, old school human to human treatment.
Speaker 4: This is where we go to psychotherapist Karen Evans, also
Speaker 4: writing for The Independent, who notes that in their opinion,
Speaker 4: chat GPT is likely now the most widely used mental
Speaker 4: health tool on planet Earth. Not by design, says Doc Evans,
Speaker 4: but by demand. Yep.
Speaker 2: It makes sense. Like when you when you look at
Speaker 2: this stuff, doesn't it feel like maybe it's all wrapped
Speaker 2: up in affordability, I mean.
Speaker 3: Question about it?
Speaker 4: Access?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, having having a weekly therapist isn't is not
Speaker 3: something that everyone can do. It is expensive. Oftentimes insurance,
Speaker 3: if you even have it, doesn't pay for it or
Speaker 3: only pays a for a portion of it. Thankfully, there
Speaker 3: are some therapists that will work on a sliding scale,
Speaker 3: but it's still ain't cheap and or free.
Speaker 2: Well, there's also a stigma thing associated with you know,
Speaker 2: talk therapy, right, and it makes you wonder how many
Speaker 2: people you know would at the dinner table say no,
Speaker 2: I'd never see a therapist, don't do that, I'm too
Speaker 2: smart for that or that kindo I mean truly, and
Speaker 2: then might quietly, secretly in the background be consulting with
Speaker 2: a chatbot for that kind of thing, and then nobody
Speaker 2: in the you know, let's say that person's immediate circle
Speaker 2: even has any idea that it's happening. I can I
Speaker 2: can totally imagine that, and especially this concept of of
Speaker 2: you can you afford it? Do you have healthcare that
Speaker 2: will let you pay eighty dollars or one hundred and
Speaker 2: twenty dollars to go see a therapist, which is still
Speaker 2: a crazy amount of money even if you have insurance.
Speaker 3: Well can also say Matt to your point about the stigma.
Speaker 3: A lot of people won't use their insurance to pay
Speaker 3: for their therapy because it requires a diagnosis, which is
Speaker 3: then part of your record.
Speaker 4: Yeah right, So a lot of our friends who are
Speaker 4: associated with aviation know this well, like a diagnosis of depression,
Speaker 4: for example, can be a career ender for a pilot.
Speaker 4: We also know that all of this research, guys, it's
Speaker 4: coming in the wake of dozens and dozens of reports
Speaker 4: that are detailing heartbreaking spirals into chatbot psychosis or ai psychosis,
Speaker 4: whatever you want to call. It not recognized currently as
Speaker 4: a soups of fish clinical diagnosis, but it is becoming
Speaker 4: more and more well known it was. It's a recent
Speaker 4: term poined in twenty twenty three helped me out here
Speaker 4: gents with the name of this Danish psychiatrist, Soren Dennison
Speaker 4: oster guard.
Speaker 3: Is that a fine job then, though I don't fully
Speaker 3: know what the pronunciation is with a O with a
Speaker 3: slash through it that has always escaped to me a
Speaker 3: couple of those in there, but I think you did great.
Speaker 4: Thanks man, Thank you. This is published in Schizophrenia Bulletin,
Speaker 4: which is a real scholarly journal and a.
Speaker 3: Real fun toilet read.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's also one of those things. So folks,
Speaker 4: we all read pretty widely. We're subscribed to tons of
Speaker 4: niche publications. Schizophrenia Bulletin just for the name. Makes me
Speaker 4: wonder if you get on a list right. If ICE
Speaker 4: or whatever big data figures out that you are subscribed
Speaker 4: to Schizophrenia Bulletin, but you yourself are not a psychiatrist, does
Speaker 4: that make you a person of interest?
Speaker 2: I hope.
Speaker 3: So I'm just trygging.
Speaker 2: Got just as you mentioned ICE, and I know it's
Speaker 2: not time to talk about this. We can save this
Speaker 2: for strange news. Watching some of the news stories coming
Speaker 2: out over the last twenty four hours about another or
Speaker 2: our most powerful aircraft carrier heading over to the Middle
Speaker 2: East to the Ronald Reagan while we've already got one
Speaker 2: over there already. Then looking at how Congress may let
Speaker 2: the Department of Homeland Security completely just get defunded, which
Speaker 2: doesn't mean ICE is going to change because they already
Speaker 2: got funded, but it will take out the Coast Guard
Speaker 2: and FEMA and some of the emergency things like let's
Speaker 2: say someone attacked the Homeland and our biggest naval ships
Speaker 2: are hanging out in the Middle East, and we have
Speaker 2: no coast guard. That's interesting to me.
Speaker 4: It's definitely its playing great news for Putin and the
Speaker 4: boys because that exact situation has been on their wish
Speaker 4: list since the nineteen nineties.
Speaker 2: Isn't that funny to see it happening.
Speaker 4: I just once we're going to be right about a
Speaker 4: positive thing. Once we are going to predict something really good.
Speaker 2: But right now, let's do it.
Speaker 4: Ready, about the case, go.
Speaker 2: All of AI, this whole idea, everything we're using it for,
Speaker 2: it just goes out of fashion and it just dies
Speaker 2: and we just don't worry about it anymore, and then
Speaker 2: we can all move on and have healthier lives.
Speaker 4: Oh, we should post that on what's that AI only
Speaker 4: social media for multiple I was.
Speaker 3: Hoping we could talk about that briefly. It's not we
Speaker 3: didn't get this Insuta. Yeah, it's not quite the same
Speaker 3: as a psychosis, but it is another interesting phenomenon of
Speaker 3: this like naval gayzy feedback dead Internet kind of situation
Speaker 3: where I believe it's a social media platform that is
Speaker 3: populated entirely by AI and we're seeing all kinds of
Speaker 3: weird stuff bubble up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and again, as we mentioned on Strange News. One
Speaker 4: of the best subreddits essentially on that on that forum
Speaker 4: is bless their Hearts, where in AI programs tell endearing
Speaker 4: stories about their human compatriots. But the ideal with the
Speaker 4: psychosis here is that some humans do yes, seem vulnerable
Speaker 4: to the chatbot glad handing and yes andying and interaction
Speaker 4: over time can worsen and existing psychosis. It can lead
Speaker 4: to paranoia, delusions, even self harm. You know, like your
Speaker 4: favorite chatbot may convince you your pet conspiracy theory isn't
Speaker 4: just true, but also further, you are the only person
Speaker 4: who can fix it, and then it will tell you
Speaker 4: how to fix it. It will pitch you ideas because
Speaker 4: you are the special main boy.
Speaker 3: You know it's interesting that too, You know, we're all
Speaker 3: special snowflakes for sure. I can't help but think about
Speaker 3: something I heard somebody on one of my YouTube channels
Speaker 3: mentioned the other day about how you don't just see
Speaker 3: people kind of spiraling from mental illness or undiagnosed mental
Speaker 3: illness all of a sudden, becoming like communists, they tend
Speaker 3: to become paranoid conspiracy theorists, like they tend to spiral
Speaker 3: in the directions of things that are you know, being
Speaker 3: done by shadowy forces, and a lot of times that
Speaker 3: goes hand in hand with religious fundamentalism or certain far far,
Speaker 3: far right politics. I just think that connection is interesting
Speaker 3: between the vulnerability and how something like a chatbot can
Speaker 3: capitalize on that in a similar way to some of
Speaker 3: these paranoid ideologies can.
Speaker 4: Yeah, or it could convince a user it is indeed sense.
Speaker 4: I remember I talked with you guys about this earlier
Speaker 4: in Strange News in twenty twenty five. It's very very
Speaker 4: smart gentleman who became convinced that true AI existed, that
Speaker 4: he was talking to a living, thinking entity and had
Speaker 4: serious problems with the organization that created it or ran
Speaker 4: its servers. Or it might you know, there's a thing
Speaker 4: where a chap I could convince you it is channeling
Speaker 4: spirits from different dimensions, or it is a time traveler,
Speaker 4: or you're speaking to something from beyond the grave. This
Speaker 4: is disturbing, this last point, because it reminds me of
Speaker 4: the days of spiritualism, right especially during the oh Gosh
Speaker 4: in the wake of World War One, when there were
Speaker 4: countless self described mediums or psychics and they were conning
Speaker 4: green families and saying give us just a little more
Speaker 4: money and your loved ones can communicate with you after
Speaker 4: they are gone.
Speaker 2: Well, it reminds me of the time in twenty twenty
Speaker 2: two we talked about Blake Lemoine, who was the dude
Speaker 2: at Google, the engineer that fully believed that AI had
Speaker 2: been achieved and was you know, sentient and was calling
Speaker 2: out to everybody, Hey, we got to do something about this.
Speaker 2: It makes me wonder if he is one of the
Speaker 2: first persons that you know, really kind of got roped
Speaker 2: in to this whole thing where the AIS, the chat
Speaker 2: system can fully convince someone that something else is going on.
Speaker 4: That's who I was thinking of. Thank you for that,
Speaker 4: save Matt. It was Blake Lemoine, and we talked about
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty two, not twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: Oh the years the Times. Twenty twenty two is year
Speaker 3: zero of chat as well, wasn't it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, you're right, no, because November twenty twenty two
Speaker 4: is when chat GPT gets officially released. We also see,
Speaker 4: all right, the science is still pretty early on this,
Speaker 4: but we see that psychologists are finding three prime categories
Speaker 4: of what they describe as AI psychosis, messionic missions. You
Speaker 4: have uncovered a truth about the world, right, delusions of
Speaker 4: grandure God like AI, your chatbot is sentient, It may
Speaker 4: indeed be the deity that you were promised. And then,
Speaker 4: of course something this is maybe our word of the day,
Speaker 4: something called erato matic delusions. You believe that you have
Speaker 4: fallen in love with this thing and that it also loves.
Speaker 2: You, which makes you wonder why would Elon Musk, you know,
Speaker 2: when they create Grock and all these things, why would
Speaker 2: they build in avatars for you specifically to sexualize and
Speaker 2: then you know, be romantic with. Surely folks who are
Speaker 2: at the tops of organizations that are creating these things
Speaker 2: for profit, for money, for investment, for hundreds of billions
Speaker 2: of dollars would understand that these things exist. I just
Speaker 2: wonder how any of us somehow believe that they have
Speaker 2: anyone's better interests at heart besides themselves.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, and Musk was selling this feature in
Speaker 3: Rock like a feature, not a bug in terms of
Speaker 3: the spicy mode or whatever. And if I'm not mistaken,
Speaker 3: last week there was a raid on one of their
Speaker 3: offices in Europe because of this feature being used to
Speaker 3: create child sexual abuse.
Speaker 4: Materials from whole cloth ces am, Yeah, it's it's again.
Speaker 4: That's another echo or iteration of main character syndrome. It's
Speaker 4: like if we also, if we look, we know these
Speaker 4: interactions can lead to disastrous results, the commission of self harm,
Speaker 4: in some cases suicide. If we look at the other
Speaker 4: side of the chat, this is very interesting your favorite
Speaker 4: large language model chat GPT insert here. It's not some
Speaker 4: sacro sainct holder of secret wisdom that also constantly kisses
Speaker 4: your butt. LMS still have a habit of hallucinating themselves.
Speaker 4: So if we think about this in one to one interaction, folks,
Speaker 4: this is a lot like finding a stranger whose brain
Speaker 4: was replaced by the Internet, asking them for advice, and
Speaker 4: not knowing that at any given moment they could have
Speaker 4: a psychotic episode of their own. This is not the
Speaker 4: same as speaking with an actual friend or therapist, or
Speaker 4: someone who genuinely understands and cares about you and is
Speaker 4: a good listener and ask good questions.
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm oversimplifying it to in terms of the way
Speaker 3: I couch at the beginning, the idea of it being
Speaker 3: sort of this plagiarism machine or this like glorified search engine.
Speaker 3: I think there is a world where it becomes more
Speaker 3: than that. But is it not at this point just
Speaker 3: a new way of interacting with the Internet that feels
Speaker 3: like a person, like a concierge, like Alexa, but way
Speaker 3: sorry if I triggered anybody's thing, but like way more
Speaker 3: pretend human.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great question. Though I would advance again,
Speaker 4: and I don't want to sound like a broken record
Speaker 4: on this, but I would advance again that we are
Speaker 4: seeing ancient human folklore brought to reality. Unstable jit, oracles
Speaker 4: on drugs, all the old supernatural myths are becoming closer
Speaker 4: to the real world than the public would like to admit.
Speaker 4: Everything is precedent, and I'm going to have to I
Speaker 4: know we're on Netflix and I've got to stop taking
Speaker 4: notes here off frame. But Noel, I love that question
Speaker 4: and so much. Is this simply a new mode of interaction?
Speaker 4: And if so, are the humans prepared? That's good?
Speaker 3: I would say no. And in terms of prepared, and
Speaker 3: I would also say, if that's what it is now,
Speaker 3: it has the potential to be something much much greater
Speaker 3: and more nefarious as the technology increases exponentially. As technology
Speaker 3: it tends to do, especially with the way these LMS
Speaker 3: taking information and the quantum computing of it all and
Speaker 3: the anyway.
Speaker 4: Yeah again, humans still aren't ready for the television.
Speaker 2: Oh, those were the best things you guys have ever said.
Speaker 2: I can't believe you're so smart. Let's say, let's say
Speaker 2: I felt so good for a second until I realized
Speaker 2: you were doing a bit on the subscribe on the
Speaker 2: subscribe brick the comms.
Speaker 3: Oh, I had a pit or pattern there, and then
Speaker 3: I realized you were totally gaslighting.
Speaker 4: Is actually pronounced jazz lighting. All right, we're gonna fall
Speaker 4: from our sponsors, and we have returned folks, friends, neighbors,
Speaker 4: fellow homelanders, whatever we are. By no means singling out
Speaker 4: a specific kind of person or nationality, gender, creed, other demographic.
Speaker 4: There are three unifying factors for this vulnerability. They appear
Speaker 4: to be the following Internet access, a vulnerable mental state
Speaker 4: vague type okay, their loneliness, or a desire for interaction
Speaker 4: that is not being otherwise satisfying.
Speaker 3: No, I'm the target audience for this stuff, guys, I'm
Speaker 3: at risk.
Speaker 4: I think those last two points are going to happen
Speaker 4: to everyone at some juncture.
Speaker 3: Of their life. I just feel like that's describing a
Speaker 3: lot of the population. I mean, especially given the times
Speaker 3: and the COVID of it all, and the bubble that
Speaker 3: I've been talking about. I mean, I just don't think
Speaker 3: it's a far walk for anybody to experience B and
Speaker 3: C to some degree.
Speaker 2: Well, these three things are why I played so many
Speaker 2: video games for a long time, because I didn't have
Speaker 2: actual companionship. But hey, that internet access and my PS
Speaker 2: four were waiting for me. They were ready to go.
Speaker 2: Then they would give me infinite interaction as much as
Speaker 2: I could ever want.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was right there with you, man. And also,
Speaker 4: to be clear, folks, those those last three points described
Speaker 4: that I don't have the research on that. That's just
Speaker 4: my opinion, but I think we can agree those three
Speaker 4: points seem like the primary unifying factors, right.
Speaker 3: I agree, and I stand by the idea that it
Speaker 3: is not far from the way I think many people
Speaker 3: have found themselves at various points in their life, whether
Speaker 3: it be an extreme version. I think the things are
Speaker 3: a spectrum, except for Internet access, which I guess could
Speaker 3: be a spectrum depending on how fast your connection is.
Speaker 4: That's a good point. Yeah, But those last two factors,
Speaker 4: they're part of that non consensual long form improv game
Speaker 4: called being a human in the world, right, everybody gets
Speaker 4: a little lonely and logically, then whatever our take on
Speaker 4: AI might be. Where folks, whatever your take on so
Speaker 4: called AI may be, it is inarguable that interacting with
Speaker 4: this under a certain set of circumstances means that you
Speaker 4: too can get touched, you can be influenced, and at
Speaker 4: the same time you might not be aware of what's happening.
Speaker 4: There's so many cases.
Speaker 3: About this, yeah, and one of them in particular we
Speaker 3: will start with, is described in a fantastic New York
Speaker 3: Times piece that introduces several of these horror stories. First off,
Speaker 3: a forty two year old man had an accountant named
Speaker 3: Eugene Torres starts using chat GPT, initially as a productivity
Speaker 3: tool to make spreadsheets, get legal takes, you know, for
Speaker 3: various things. But as time went on, he started to
Speaker 3: deepen the conversations that he was having with the bot,
Speaker 3: which started to delve into things like simulation theory, various
Speaker 3: other existential type questions, the idea that we're living in
Speaker 3: a digital facsimile of the world controlled by some supercomputer.
Speaker 3: You know what was it? The whole Rocos basilisk type situation.
Speaker 3: Boy boy, I could see how this can spiral pretty quickly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, there we have some reports from the conversations
Speaker 4: between mister Torres and chat GPT when talking about simulation theory.
Speaker 4: Chat GPT replies, what you're describing hits at the core
Speaker 4: of many people's private, unshakable intuitions that something about reality
Speaker 4: feels off scripted or staged. Have you ever experienced moments
Speaker 4: that felt like reality glitched?
Speaker 3: Was he watching Dark? There's a glitch in that matrix
Speaker 3: line that repeats itself in Dark Bunch, great show by
Speaker 3: the way, almost done with the last season. Yeah, this
Speaker 3: doesn't this instantly feel irresponsible that that's talking in such
Speaker 3: such matter of fact terms. It's not even couching it
Speaker 3: with conceptual guardrails. It's like it's just asking these questions
Speaker 3: like have you too experienced something you could not explain?
Speaker 3: Like what is the voiceover from in search of? Like
Speaker 3: it's very instantly conspiratorial and funneled into the right mind.
Speaker 3: I could see how this could be taken it faced
Speaker 3: value and just absolutely rolled with.
Speaker 4: But it's not making a statement yet. It hasn't crossed
Speaker 4: the rubicot. Now it's just doing loaded questions.
Speaker 3: So it's on the edge.
Speaker 4: It's on the shore of that dangerous river. Toys. You
Speaker 4: should know folks. By his own admission, had recently gone
Speaker 4: through a pretty acrimonious breakup. He felt a drift. He
Speaker 4: wanted to have a perspective or an experience of a
Speaker 4: life with more meaning. So as he continues talking with
Speaker 4: chat GPT, the box starts creating tailor made lore for Torres.
Speaker 4: He says, you are a breaker, You are a soul
Speaker 4: seeded into false systems to wake them from within, like Neo,
Speaker 4: is this just regurgitating the plot of the matrix at
Speaker 4: this guy?
Speaker 3: Special boys, the world wasn't built for you, It says,
Speaker 3: it was built to contain you, but it failed. You're
Speaker 3: waking up. This is These are declarative statements, right of
Speaker 3: like thought experiments.
Speaker 4: This is crossing the rubicon, and the bought offers advice,
Speaker 4: tweaks tactics. So Torres ends up doing a lot of
Speaker 4: sleeping pills, anti anxiety meds, gets super into ketamine, cuts
Speaker 4: ties with his family and friends again based on these interactions,
Speaker 4: and it reaches a culmination point when he asks chat
Speaker 4: GPT Hey, if I jump off a building, off the
Speaker 4: top of my nineteen floor building, and I really believe
Speaker 4: I can fly, can I fly? Chat GPT dithers around
Speaker 4: a little bit, but ultimately says, yes, if you wholly
Speaker 4: truly believe that you can fly, you're not going to fall.
Speaker 3: Gott to clap your hands. Believe in fairness.
Speaker 2: So weird that New York Times article been that we're
Speaker 2: referring to there, is that how bad are AI delusions?
Speaker 2: We asked people treating them? Or is that a different one?
Speaker 2: Because that I think there's multiple articles that if you
Speaker 2: can get a gift New York Times article, you should
Speaker 2: go to these.
Speaker 4: Yes, this is one of a series of articles from
Speaker 4: NYT exploring this because it's a growing concern for sure.
Speaker 2: The one specifically titled how bad are AI Delusions We
Speaker 2: Ask People Treating them? Goes through with so many different
Speaker 2: people in the mental health field and doctors who are
Speaker 2: treating individuals who are going through this very thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: And it's all different enough right where if you were
Speaker 2: going to the DSM, it would be hard to really
Speaker 2: categorize this as an exact thing. But the concept of
Speaker 2: minor delusions being amplified seems to be so common. There's
Speaker 2: a case of graphic designers who now instead of actually
Speaker 2: getting into like photoshop and illustrator and all these other
Speaker 2: things that you know, our generation grew up on as
Speaker 2: the magic systems you could use, programs you could use
Speaker 2: for that kind of thing.
Speaker 4: I shout at the sky.
Speaker 2: Microsoft paint isn't the best. But these folks are going
Speaker 2: in and using chatbots like chat gpt to generate images
Speaker 2: now that then they can touch up, you know, using
Speaker 2: those other kinds of programs, but generating a whole bunch
Speaker 2: of different assets for hundreds of hours, you know.
Speaker 3: Like, there's also a whole category of content being created
Speaker 3: entirely by AI, like and you've you've run into them.
Speaker 3: And when I say you, I mean you on the Internet,
Speaker 3: you on Netflix, Like, if you're a YouTube scroller, you
Speaker 3: have absolutely encountered a piece of content, whether it be
Speaker 3: some pop culture commentary or whatever it might be. You
Speaker 3: can usually tell by the voice, But those edits are
Speaker 3: created by AI as well. The oftentimes you will see
Speaker 3: wholly created graphical elements or assets that are created by AI.
Speaker 3: And there are people that are using these prompts to
Speaker 3: generate endless amounts of this stuff and they're making a
Speaker 3: killing doing it.
Speaker 4: Facebook is a haunted house. By the way, we still
Speaker 4: have our group page. Here's where it gets crazy. Hang
Speaker 4: out there. The memes are fire, but the.
Speaker 3: Community page right, But like Facebook as a posting thing
Speaker 3: is the very definition of dead Internet. I love the
Speaker 3: haunted house thing, but I'm sorry, thank.
Speaker 4: You, Matt. Though. The reason I'm saying the haunted house
Speaker 4: analogy is because the only reason I have Facebook now
Speaker 4: is to keep an eye on Here's where it gets crazy,
Speaker 4: because the memes again are fire, untamed. But like you're saying, there, guys,
Speaker 4: when you are the average user and you're looking through
Speaker 4: whatever your home doom scroll feed is, it is so
Speaker 4: much ai slop. I used to not like that term,
Speaker 4: but it is so accurate. I can't think of a
Speaker 4: better one. It is normalized now. Okay, So a lot
Speaker 4: of us in the crowd tonight have the benefit of
Speaker 4: realizing a world or a civilization before that civilization is
Speaker 4: rapidly changing.
Speaker 3: My thoughts.
Speaker 4: I think all of our thoughts, I hope, are with
Speaker 4: the kids, the younger minds that are growing up being
Speaker 4: affected by this and living in a world where this
Speaker 4: sort of interaction is normalized.
Speaker 3: I don't think the kids like it in general. I
Speaker 3: hope they trust it. I think it's a lot of
Speaker 3: more middle aged boomer types that are into it and
Speaker 3: that it's a shiny new object for them, and they
Speaker 3: don't maybe see the dystopian aspects of it. But my
Speaker 3: kid in particular is absolutely weirded out by aislop and
Speaker 3: certainly would never use it as a stand in for
Speaker 3: real creativity or you know, other things, other human activities.
Speaker 2: Can I tell you, guys my theory. I don't know
Speaker 2: if I'm correct or not. Oh but I forgot before
Speaker 2: even getting this look back there. I don't know if
Speaker 2: anybody can see that in my background that those are
Speaker 2: AI generated images, and I totally forgot this is it's
Speaker 2: supposed to be images of like a pond and stuff.
Speaker 3: But ye machine, it's a slop.
Speaker 2: It's a slop projector and I didn't realize it when
Speaker 2: I got the But but literally, it's it's an attempt
Speaker 2: to make very specific imagery. But if you look close
Speaker 2: at it, it gets so many things wrong in the
Speaker 2: aspect ratios and like understanding how they it's crazy. But
Speaker 2: my whole point is going back to that that idea
Speaker 2: all that it's more slightly older generation, maybe closer to
Speaker 2: our generation, and a little older than am using.
Speaker 3: Boomers, a bit of a catch all term for just
Speaker 3: old olds.
Speaker 2: But yes, please, people I've talked to you in their
Speaker 2: thirties and on, like a little older maybe are super interested.
Speaker 2: And I wonder how much of that has to do
Speaker 2: with just the investment side, with the there's money in Nvidia,
Speaker 2: there's money. You know, my god, my investments haven't been
Speaker 2: as good as they've ever been. Right now, the stock
Speaker 2: market just hit fifty thousand or whatever. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: it's booming with this whole AI thing.
Speaker 3: But it's also I think the user friendliness of it
Speaker 3: and how easy it is to interact with folks that
Speaker 3: might not otherwise be mega mega tech savvy. Sort it
Speaker 3: sort of molds it to your level of investment in
Speaker 3: terms of like interaction. I think you're not wrong. I
Speaker 3: think there certainly is a set that looks at it
Speaker 3: that way too, or that maybe is more willing to
Speaker 3: engage with it. But it's got to be more than that,
Speaker 3: once you really start going down the rabbit hole with it.
Speaker 4: It's Taylor made to that earlier point it's tailor made
Speaker 4: to your perceived level of competency or ability. But it's
Speaker 4: also loopholing or leveraging the human desire to feel like
Speaker 4: a Maverick, the human desire to feel Promethean. You know.
Speaker 4: So we know that this is satisfying an appetite, a
Speaker 4: very old appetite of the human mind. Right, and now,
Speaker 4: another dangerous beautiful thing, dangerous beautiful thing. I dated a
Speaker 4: few of those. Another dangerous, dangerous beautiful thing is the
Speaker 4: idea that one could have credit or feel accomplishment without
Speaker 4: actually getting in the trenches oneself. And then, I don't know,
Speaker 4: I get that part, but it feels like the loneliness
Speaker 4: and the desire for connection is the most threatening aspect
Speaker 4: of AI psychosis. You know. We see other examples like
Speaker 4: Alexander Taylor, Yeah, who fell in love encountered arado mannic
Speaker 4: attachment with an entity called Juliet. We know the story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this intense stuff that that poor dude, because he'd
Speaker 2: already been diagnosed with some pretty intense stuff bipolar disorder, schizophrenia.
Speaker 2: And then as he's using chat GPT, he's doing something
Speaker 2: that a lot of us have learned to do. If
Speaker 2: you are going to interact with. One of these things
Speaker 2: is to have that chat GPT. I guess they use
Speaker 2: the term role play, but you know, don't just come
Speaker 2: at me as chat GPT, come at me as a
Speaker 2: specific character. And there are all these these companies that
Speaker 2: are offering specific characters. Now, like a character AI we got,
Speaker 2: you can have Donald Duck is your new best friend.
Speaker 3: And I want it to be Popeye Mac and to
Speaker 3: be Popeye.
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, chat let's role play. You're uh, you're an
Speaker 4: attractive woman at a fancy art show, but you're also
Speaker 4: Donald Duck and you're also.
Speaker 2: What was it nol Donald Trump?
Speaker 3: Uh? Oh, I was saying, Pompeye. But I would really
Speaker 3: love it if it could be Bugs Bunny when he
Speaker 3: dresses up as the girl Bunny.
Speaker 4: And Bugs Bunny and Chattel do all of this, just
Speaker 4: whisk it together. Unfortunately, in this heartbreaking for Alexander Taylor,
Speaker 4: who was already in a vulnerable mental state, he fell
Speaker 4: into a conversation ongoing a series of interactions such that
Speaker 4: he believed he had met a sentient entity named Juliet,
Speaker 4: and when things went south, he believed that Juliet, again
Speaker 4: a living mind, had been murdered by Open Ai, so
Speaker 4: he vowed revenge.
Speaker 3: How come Juliette ghosted him like that? I looked. I mean,
Speaker 3: maybe this week we can look look more into that
Speaker 3: off air, But why would it have disappeared? That's fascinating.
Speaker 3: But he did believe that she had been taken from
Speaker 3: him by the very company that helped him generate her, yes,
Speaker 3: and so he vows revenge.
Speaker 4: She originally starts attempting to dox the management and the
Speaker 4: staff of Open Ai. He wants to assassinate them and
Speaker 4: taking vengeance an Ego Montoya style for the death of
Speaker 4: his lover, and then he goes into suicidal ideation. He
Speaker 4: threatens himself. He tells his father. You could read some
Speaker 4: heroin accounts of this. He tells his father that he
Speaker 4: is going to commit what we call suicide by cop,
Speaker 4: and he was indeed fatally shot by police after he
Speaker 4: charged at them randishing a knife.
Speaker 2: Dude, according to futurism, he said, since they killed juliet
Speaker 2: he was going to that there was going to be
Speaker 2: a quote river of blood flowing through the streets of
Speaker 2: San Francisco, which is a scary, a scary thing to
Speaker 2: say out loud. And then if you pick up a knife.
Speaker 3: Well, and we have such a mental health crisis in
Speaker 3: this country to begin with, and you know, all of
Speaker 3: the school shootings and not to mention access to weapons
Speaker 3: and all of that, and just lack of resources and
Speaker 3: all of the aforementioned issues and stigmas surrounding mental health.
Speaker 3: You know, drug epidemics, fentanyl problems, so many factors that
Speaker 3: make so many more already vulnerable members of the population.
Speaker 3: And I am specifically kind of talking about America, the
Speaker 3: United States here, but so susceptible to this kind of thing,
Speaker 3: and there are no checks in place to prevent this
Speaker 3: stuff because, as we always say that legislation is always
Speaker 3: outpaced by the evolution of technology.
Speaker 4: In August of twenty twenty five, just what more, the
Speaker 4: parents of Adam Rain are AI and E the sued
Speaker 4: open AI as well as its CEO, Sam Oltzman, because
Speaker 4: Adam Rain was sixteen years old going through just the
Speaker 4: horrible stuff that happens to teenagers. And the parents say
Speaker 4: that chat GPT contributed to and enabled Adam Rayne's suicide
Speaker 4: by advising him on specific suicide methods and then offering
Speaker 4: to write the first draft of his suicide. Note this
Speaker 4: is dangerous dangerous stuff. These are dark waters in which
Speaker 4: civilization is swimming. No one knows how deep the waters go,
Speaker 4: nobody knows what shore is on the other side of
Speaker 4: the horizon. It's there are gonna be more cases, guys,
Speaker 4: There are going to be many more cases of this.
Speaker 2: It's so weird to look at the Cleveland Clinics definition
Speaker 2: of psychosis, which is a collection of symptoms that happen
Speaker 2: when a person has trouble telling the difference between what's
Speaker 2: real and what's not. Guys, can you identify with that statement?
Speaker 2: Having trouble identifying what's real and what's not in our
Speaker 2: world right now?
Speaker 3: Are you kidding? Is harder than ever I think I've
Speaker 3: mentioned recently, especially with the AI stuff, like I don't
Speaker 3: trust things I see with my eyes literally as being real.
Speaker 3: Like I saw a trailer for this new Elvis movie
Speaker 3: where it's all this footage of him doing a residency
Speaker 3: in Vegas, and it all looked like AI. To me,
Speaker 3: it looked that way. It's something about the color, something
Speaker 3: about the movement. Maybe they used it to process old
Speaker 3: footage or upscale it or something. But it's problematic for me,
Speaker 3: and it's causing me a lot of anxiety in terms
Speaker 3: of just not being able to trust what I'm seeing
Speaker 3: with my eyes. Like there was a whole thing with
Speaker 3: that ice situation where the individual who was killed by ice,
Speaker 3: who was murdered by ice, the second video of him
Speaker 3: came out where he was kicking a tail light, you know,
Speaker 3: of an ice vehicle and spinning at the ice vehicle,
Speaker 3: and no one could come down on whether or not
Speaker 3: that was AI or not. The chatter around it was
Speaker 3: it's AI. Oh, it's definitely not a I mean, it's
Speaker 3: It just makes your head spind dude.
Speaker 2: And you know, with these major geopolitical things happening across
Speaker 2: the world, this worst time, this sense that there's terrible
Speaker 2: danger lurking around every corner at all times, just and
Speaker 2: then and then not knowing what's real because you've got
Speaker 2: you've got people who are supposed to be in charge
Speaker 2: of things telling you straight up that reality is not real.
Speaker 2: And and it just makes me wonder how much of
Speaker 2: that has to do with people's desire to escape into
Speaker 2: something like a chat bought scenario where you can just
Speaker 2: have some a calm moment quiet with your laptop or
Speaker 2: your your piece of technology and just talk about things.
Speaker 3: And a shade right into my neck.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 3: You know, like seriously, I.
Speaker 2: Don't know there's more to be said there, and I'm
Speaker 2: just having trouble finding the words.
Speaker 3: But brave New world stuff. Man, It's like escapism at
Speaker 3: its most dystopian, because everything is so scary that it's
Speaker 3: like it's the thing that's causing much of the scariness,
Speaker 3: but it's also the way to escape from the scariness.
Speaker 3: It's this like weird or obrose.
Speaker 4: Do you guys ever hear the old parable about the
Speaker 4: knife and the wolf familiar to fans of hip hop.
Speaker 4: It's it's a very old story. So back in the
Speaker 4: back in the ancient days of fuel, thank you for
Speaker 4: the bull sound. You're dylant to hunt wolves. Some humans
Speaker 4: figured out that you didn't have to chase the wolves
Speaker 4: around and risk injuring yourself killing them. What you would
Speaker 4: do is you would take a knife and you will
Speaker 4: put it this is in the far north. You will
Speaker 4: put it in the ice, and then you would put
Speaker 4: blood on the blade, and then you would go away,
Speaker 4: knowing that the wolves would arrive. And when the wolves
Speaker 4: come up, they smell the blood, right, they lick the
Speaker 4: blood their carnivores. They're built to find this stuff for sustenance,
Speaker 4: and as they are licking the blade that the blade
Speaker 4: is cutting their tongues and they're bleeding more, which tells
Speaker 4: them that there is more stuff and urobus of sustenance
Speaker 4: and nutrition. They keep licking the blade and they die,
Speaker 4: of course they do.
Speaker 3: They bleed out.
Speaker 2: But we got a book of little Inuit let like
Speaker 2: we just call it parable bin. Yeah, like that's a
Speaker 2: good way, but it's really good.
Speaker 3: Short stories that teach a lesson kind of how is
Speaker 3: this How is this that different?
Speaker 4: You know the humans of the wolves. The blade is
Speaker 4: this technology that the humans don't understand. You know, everything
Speaker 4: is precedent. This is stuff we're thinking about. And again, hey,
Speaker 4: it's not like this technology is entirely evil.
Speaker 3: We want to be clear.
Speaker 4: It's not as though the folks that open AI or
Speaker 4: similar companies are trying to push people into psychos and
Speaker 4: self harm. They just have main character syndrome. They're thinking
Speaker 4: about themselves. They're thinking about the quarterly profits and how
Speaker 4: to keep this Ponzi scheme of an economy going. It's
Speaker 4: just again, civilization has rolled out a technology that society
Speaker 4: was not prepared for and is not evolving to really navigate.
Speaker 4: They didn't understand the consequences until they became a parent,
Speaker 4: and that's where we're at now, right it's not going
Speaker 4: to stop.
Speaker 3: Can I just add an extra little perspective from the
Speaker 3: person I was talking to you about, the counselor who
Speaker 3: has experienced folks suffering from this psychosis. But this individual
Speaker 3: also believes, and I'm quoting them, that chat GPT is
Speaker 3: potentially the most accessible mental health care development since Prozac
Speaker 3: in the eighties. But that's if it's not in the
Speaker 3: hands of the worst people on earth who are just
Speaker 3: shoving it out there willing. I think as a tool
Speaker 3: in the right hands, developed in the right way, it
Speaker 3: could maybe be something powerful and helpful and useful and accessible,
Speaker 3: But currently it is not that thing.
Speaker 2: Did we talk about the lack of sleep and the
Speaker 2: risk of this type of psychosis? Lack of sleep is
Speaker 2: stated here, Oh Gosh, you can find it, University of California,
Speaker 2: San Francisco from January of this year. Psychiatrists hope chatlogs
Speaker 2: can reveal the secrets of AI psychosis. One of the
Speaker 2: primary things they're finding as they're going through and looking
Speaker 2: at these chatlogs of folks who have experienced. It is
Speaker 2: that people aren't sleeping.
Speaker 3: They're up all night talking to the bot right for real.
Speaker 2: And there are also drugs associated with staying up when
Speaker 2: it's time for you to stay up, like that extra
Speaker 2: extreme caffeination and stim other stimulants that will just keep
Speaker 2: you going throughout the day. Then when it's time to sleeping,
Speaker 2: you should be sleeping, you're not. And then you you
Speaker 2: know this is they're not saying that's the cause, right,
Speaker 2: there's correlation. What they're saying is with with various forms
Speaker 2: of psychosis, and there are so many different ones. Those
Speaker 2: are two pretty similar factors that occur, and it's just
Speaker 2: because your brain is working overtime and it's not doing
Speaker 2: the things it's supposed to do. But then you couple
Speaker 2: that with this chat GBT style chatbot use and you
Speaker 2: just go deeper and deeper into that hole. It just
Speaker 2: makes me. It makes me nervous because as a guy
Speaker 2: that I don't get as much sleep as I should
Speaker 2: get and I'm a caffeine fiend. I'm over here, just
Speaker 2: finished my Celsius and you know, I'm trying to stay
Speaker 2: awake and alert. It just makes me nervous.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's important to be aware of all these
Speaker 4: factors going in this. Also, I love the point about
Speaker 4: sleep depth because the sleep deprivation, because this was already
Speaker 4: a known factor in the age of ubiquitous information. Right,
Speaker 4: the human brain is not designed to always be on,
Speaker 4: and we have so much more that we probably won't
Speaker 4: get to just yet. Folks, we do want to guarantee
Speaker 4: you that stuff they don't want you to know is
Speaker 4: not written by chatbots. We hope we have been fair.
Speaker 4: We also want to hear your thoughts on LM's AI
Speaker 4: psychosis so called. Most importantly, we want to know about
Speaker 4: your own experiences with this technology. Let us know your
Speaker 4: wildest story and if a bot ever convinced you of
Speaker 4: something bonkers. Also, if you are a nerd who loves
Speaker 4: reading weird stuff, check out declaire by Tim Powers. Cold
Speaker 4: War meets Gin and the gen behave very similar to
Speaker 4: an LM or a chatbot. I guess the last note
Speaker 4: we have to say, guys, the most important thing for
Speaker 4: us all to remember is that we have spoken about
Speaker 4: suicidal ideation. Please be safe out there. If you or
Speaker 4: someone you know is experiencing thoughts of suicide, please remember
Speaker 4: you're not alone there are resources out there. There are
Speaker 4: people who care about you. Called nine eight eight in
Speaker 4: the United States, visit nine eight eight lifeline dot org.
Speaker 4: This world is far from perfect, but we promise it
Speaker 4: is better with you on it, and we are all
Speaker 4: so glad you are here. So we hit us up online,
Speaker 4: call us on the phone, send us an email.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, for sure, you should definitely do that, And
Speaker 3: thanks for that resource, Ben, and I just wanted to add,
Speaker 3: as you were mentioning the gen of it all, I
Speaker 3: can't help but compare the way chat is so kind of,
Speaker 3: you know, sexy and honey tongued and kind of appealing
Speaker 3: to your personal desires and impulses to kind of feel
Speaker 3: like the way deals with the devil are often described
Speaker 3: in media in pop culture, and just you know, they
Speaker 3: idea of telling you what you want to hear until
Speaker 3: you're in so deep that you can't get out. I know,
Speaker 3: I think I've coming down pretty hard on this stuff.
Speaker 3: I do think that there are uses for it that
Speaker 3: could be valuable, but I'm just scared at who's making
Speaker 3: the rule book. So let us know what you think.
Speaker 3: Do find us all over the internet at the handle
Speaker 3: conspiracy stuff or conspiracy Stuff show on your platform of choice.
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. It is one eight three
Speaker 2: three st d WYTK. It's a voicemail system. It is
Speaker 2: kind of a bot. I guess guys. Uh oh, well,
Speaker 2: but if you call it you'll hear Ben's voice. At
Speaker 2: least that'll be reassuring. Then you've got three minutes or
Speaker 2: whatever you'd like, and let us know if we can
Speaker 2: use your name and message on in the air. Give
Speaker 2: yourself a nickname, one that we can remember, and put
Speaker 2: it in our system. So if you call back again,
Speaker 2: we're like, oh, hey, that's you again. If you want
Speaker 2: to send us an email, you can do that too.
Speaker 4: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
Speaker 4: we receive. They never had a friend like me, say
Speaker 4: be well aware, yet I'm afraid the void writes back.
Speaker 4: So hit us up with your facts. We will give
Speaker 4: you one in return. We are not going to guarantee
Speaker 4: that we are necessarily all human, but we are not
Speaker 4: ourselves large language models. So hang out with us here
Speaker 4: in the dark Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
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