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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Nola.

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Speaker 3: They call me Bet.

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Speaker 4: We're joined as always with our super producer, Dylan the

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Speaker 4: Tennessee pal Faga. Most importantly, you argue you are here.

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Speaker 4: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Everybody,

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Speaker 4: just real quick for this one log off of your

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Speaker 4: chatbot interactions, your conversations.

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Speaker 3: Now my chatbot, I know, Oh my.

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Speaker 4: Gosh, so pressio. We were talking a little bit off

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Speaker 4: air about the proliferation of using chat GPT or chat

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Speaker 4: bots or large language models, and I'd love for us

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Speaker 4: all to talk a little bit about our personal experiences.

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Speaker 4: I personally am not an entity that engages with this technology.

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Speaker 3: No bend on't mix with no clankers, That's for sure.

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Speaker 3: I've used I think I can count on one hand

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Speaker 3: how many times I've engaged with a chat bot. One

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Speaker 3: of them was for a weird assignment that we got

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Speaker 3: back in the day, in the early days of SHAT

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Speaker 3: gpt to like make a show using it, and then

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Speaker 3: that became a real bad work real quick, so we

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Speaker 3: did not pursue that endeavor. And then another was a

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Speaker 3: recent just kind of spitballing some show names for a

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Speaker 3: project I'm working on, just to try to get a

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Speaker 3: vibe check, you know. And I support it for stuff

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Speaker 3: like that, like ID eight ing maybe a little bit

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Speaker 3: here and there, creating some bullet points or some ideas

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Speaker 3: to kind of jump off of. I don't personally have

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Speaker 3: a problem with it for that, but that's the extent

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Speaker 3: of it. And I very purposely don't have it on

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Speaker 3: my phone because I know a lot of people that

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Speaker 3: get quite addicted to the things, and I have a

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Speaker 3: bit of a technology addictive personality. So maybe I'm trying

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Speaker 3: to help myself out.

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Speaker 4: There someone who had their brain replaced by the Internet

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Speaker 4: or a thing that had its brain replaced by the

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Speaker 4: Internet and always tells you your right and exacerbates main

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Speaker 4: characters syndrome gome on what's not the love?

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Speaker 2: It is weird because there are so many uses of

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Speaker 2: these large language models now being implemented, not just for

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Speaker 2: chat right, and not just for therapy, not just for

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Speaker 2: all the things that we're going to kind of hone

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Speaker 2: in on for this episode. And I've never used any

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Speaker 2: of the chat functions for those things, but we just

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Speaker 2: at this company, we've been interacting with things like Descript

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Speaker 2: that use the same kind of I would say engines

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Speaker 2: to do things like edit audio and give you, you know,

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Speaker 2: thirty social clips out of an hour long video, and

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Speaker 2: those kinds of things that are they're still analyzing language

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Speaker 2: via audio and you know, watching video and trying to

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Speaker 2: make decisions about when when should we make cuts, when

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Speaker 2: should we not make a cut, And it just all

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 3: Guys.

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Speaker 2: It feels to me like a genie's lamp or something.

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Speaker 2: And I think every time I encounter it in the wild,

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Speaker 2: at least I kind of look at it like that. Ah,

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Speaker 2: I might get some wishes out of this thing, but

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Speaker 2: it seems pretty dangerous.

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Speaker 3: Set of a monkey's paw situation, only the monkey's paw

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Speaker 3: is giving you the middle finger, right, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: I noted earlier that the old supernatural folklore of ancient

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Speaker 4: times is now becoming more real than a lot of

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Speaker 4: people would like to admit. Now, some of us in

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Speaker 4: the audience tonight refuse to touch the latest iterations of

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Speaker 4: large language models or Gemini assists or whatever. Other people

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Speaker 4: treat these programs like genuine human friends co workers, even

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Speaker 4: as we'll see tonight romantic partners. We also hear a

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Speaker 4: lot about people, some of whom we know, personally putting

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Speaker 4: self imposed boundaries on their quote unquote AI use. Somebody

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Speaker 4: might avoid a chatbot or a chat gpt like the plague,

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Speaker 4: but maybe just fine with getting an AI summary in

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Speaker 4: their most recent Google search. We're still working it out.

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Speaker 4: This is a work in progress, and as humanity is

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Speaker 4: adjusting to this new technology, this paradigm shift that I

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Speaker 4: would argue is on the level of the discovery and

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Speaker 4: taming of fire, experts are just now discovering another hidden consequence.

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Speaker 4: It's the idea that interacting with these programs may have

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Speaker 4: damaging effects on cognition, on the mental state of the user.

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Speaker 4: This is the story of AI psychosis. Here are the facts.

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Speaker 4: All right, guys, what do you think large language models conscious?

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Speaker 4: How do we define it?

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Speaker 3: Hmm? Well, I mean it's just kind of a plagiarism machine,

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Speaker 3: you know. It just sort of like puts out feelers

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Speaker 3: into the Internet sphere, you know, and and pulls out

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Speaker 3: bits that relate to various things and filters it through

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Speaker 3: the type of parameters. I suppose you, as a user

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Speaker 3: put onto it and then kind of regurgitates a lot

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Speaker 3: of that back. So I mean, in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 3: it's sort of like a really high powered performative search engine.

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Speaker 3: You know. I don't know that it's conscious though in

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Speaker 3: the form that it exists currently. That would be more

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Speaker 3: like the Singularity, Right, that would be the real scary

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Speaker 3: Skynet moment.

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Speaker 4: I like your phraisenl I'm going to write that down

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Speaker 4: a plagiarism machine. That's something that critics would agree with

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Speaker 4: chat GPT if we look at it specifically. It is

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Speaker 4: the gold standard for these kinds of programs, right. It

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Speaker 4: was released just in twenty twenty two, in November by

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Speaker 4: a company we've talked about in the past called open Ai.

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Speaker 4: It became the fastest growing consumer software application in history.

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Speaker 4: You can see all the press releases. By two months

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Speaker 4: after its release, one hundred million people we're using chat GPT.

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Speaker 4: It is currently one of the top five websites visited

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Speaker 4: around the world as we record on February Friday, thirteenth.

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Speaker 3: Oh shoot, it is right of the thirteenth And it

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Speaker 3: is careful out there, y'all, although it won't be that

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Speaker 3: day when you're hearing this, But does it not feel

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Speaker 3: resonant or reminiscent of the level of adoption that early

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Speaker 3: social media had, this kind of massive boom that almost

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Speaker 3: like created a life of its own.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and every single company that exists on the planet

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Speaker 2: trying to scramble and figure out how to implement social

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Speaker 2: media into all of their workflows, right, and how do

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Speaker 2: we use this to the best of our ability? How

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Speaker 2: do we expand with this new stuff? And then a

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Speaker 2: ton of new startups that are attempting to use that

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Speaker 2: specific new technology to create a new thing or to

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Speaker 2: innovate within some other space.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's sound dope af at the shareholder meeting. Oh guys,

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Speaker 4: we're gamifying how stuff works.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 4: People can learn about bifocals, and they can put in comments,

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Speaker 4: and they can, you know, toss an emoji right answer

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Speaker 4: quiz right, right, take a little survey. Your data being

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Speaker 4: gathered at every step of the process. We've talked at

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Speaker 4: length about some of the chatbot issues in the recent past,

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Speaker 4: the inaccuracy of information being one the ways to make

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Speaker 4: it help you commit crime by framing things in a

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Speaker 4: hypothetical or dungeons and dragon scenario. We've talked about the

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Speaker 4: problem of intellectual property and so on, which is why

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Speaker 4: I love noles Frey's plagiarism machine. We do have to

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Speaker 4: be fair, we do have to acknowledge this is not

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Speaker 4: all doom and gloom. There's an AI boom that was

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Speaker 4: triggered by a lot of these chatbots, which is going

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Speaker 4: to be bad for human civilization. But at the same

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Speaker 4: time it has led to bold new breakthroughs in medicine

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Speaker 4: and meteorology and chemistry, mathematics, manufacturing. This is no hyperbole.

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Speaker 4: We're not blow and rainbows, folks. This is up there

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Speaker 4: with the time humans tamed fire, and maybe we think

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Speaker 4: about it that way because you know, if you find

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Speaker 4: an appropriate use for fire, tamed fire, then you can

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Speaker 4: heat up a bunch of cool food that'll taste better,

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Speaker 4: you can stay warm in the cold. But if you

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Speaker 4: misuse the fire, disasters occur, you know, burn down the

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Speaker 4: whole forest for sure.

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Speaker 2: I don't mean to disagree in any way. I guess

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Speaker 2: I'm just trying to understand if it's the deep learning

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Speaker 2: models or the large language models, or specifically the chat

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Speaker 2: GPT that we're considering the thing that is on the

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Speaker 2: level of Fire, because it feels like the deep learning stuff,

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Speaker 2: you know, checking out the large data sets that have

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Speaker 2: been around for a while now, I mean at least

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Speaker 2: a decade where you can do deep learning in a

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Speaker 2: huge data set or something and discover something new in

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Speaker 2: the data that was collected by let's a large satellite

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Speaker 2: array that was checking out a region of the stars, right,

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Speaker 2: and this deep learning thing could pick out information that

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Speaker 2: humans would It would have taken hundreds of years for

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Speaker 2: humans to go through all that data and crunch it.

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Speaker 2: I'm just the is it the concept of using a

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Speaker 2: large language model to interact with us? As is the

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Speaker 2: revelation of it all.

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Speaker 3: It's such a tricky thing though, because I mean the

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Speaker 3: term AI and the term large language models seem to

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Speaker 3: be such a catch all. So I think, if not

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Speaker 3: to presume ben but where I stand on in terms

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Speaker 3: of the Fire comparison, it's just more like the early

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Speaker 3: and unfettered rollout of this kind of stuff without much

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Speaker 3: attention paid to the knock on consequences down the line,

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Speaker 3: and like it as a tool, it's rad It can

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Speaker 3: do a lot of cool science stuff. It can you know,

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Speaker 3: help with a lot of things potentially in terms of

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Speaker 3: the chat aspect of it, but also left unchecked and

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Speaker 3: in the wrong hands. And I would argue it's nothing

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Speaker 3: but in the wrong hands most of the time. In

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Speaker 3: terms of the types of folks that are rolling this

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Speaker 3: stuff out. It can burn down your whole world, our

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Speaker 3: whole world.

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Speaker 4: I like that, And this answers again or it shows

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Speaker 4: us again an example of a theory that I'm super

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Speaker 4: obsessed with right now, which is that society must evolve

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Speaker 4: in step with technology or proactively. Right, the human civilization

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Speaker 4: is still arguably not prepared cognitively for things like radio

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Speaker 4: or television. To answer the earlier question, Matt, the reason

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Speaker 4: I think this analogy of fire and machine learning or

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Speaker 4: deep learning or LLM, the reason I think it's such

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Speaker 4: a banger comparison is because fire always existed, right, Large

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Speaker 4: amounts of information always existed. That's why we say taming fire, right,

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Speaker 4: taming a thing, taming this information, synthesizing it and from

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Speaker 4: it drawing new conclusions, new ideas, new implications. That's where

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Speaker 4: people are ending up being the Sorcerer's apprentice from Fantasia.

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Speaker 2: Got You so it's almost just having systems that can

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Speaker 2: analyze like that, those large amounts of data. That's that's

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Speaker 2: kind of the fire of it all.

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Speaker 4: That's the taming of the fire. Yes, it's quite Promethean,

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Speaker 4: is it not. I mean one of the funniest issues

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Speaker 4: for us that we've discussed on the show previously, folks,

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Speaker 4: is that chat butts also in their behavior, in their interactions,

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Speaker 4: they really want you to like them, just like a

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Speaker 4: social media platform. They really want you to spend as

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Speaker 4: much time as possible with them. And I believe it

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Speaker 4: was I want to say back in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 4: we were fanboying over just a phenomenal episode of South

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Speaker 4: Park depicting how these bots can be dangerously sycophantic. Everything

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Speaker 4: you say is a great idea, or if it's not

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Speaker 4: a great idea, me the bot. I see where you're

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Speaker 4: coming from. I have a few helpful suggestions, but ultimately

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Speaker 4: I support whatever you want to do.

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Speaker 3: It really reminds me of a lot of the way

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Speaker 3: that the robots are depicted in or the androids are

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Speaker 3: depicted in Westworld in the TV series, where you've got

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Speaker 3: this iPad that can turn up the volume on various

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Speaker 3: features like empathy or whatever it might be in theory.

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Speaker 3: And I've we talked off Mike a little bit about

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Speaker 3: how it's a bit surprising some of the folks that

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Speaker 3: are all in with this kind of stuff, just casual

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Speaker 3: use of chat GPT, or even going so far as

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Speaker 3: to use it in place of a therapist or to

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Speaker 3: supplement therapy. We're going to get into all of that.

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Speaker 3: I've encountered in some recent kind of dating stuff some

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Speaker 3: folks who seem very very intelligent, very normal, and I

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Speaker 3: assume that there's going to be, you know, a commonality

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Speaker 3: between us that this stuff's a little bit scary, and

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Speaker 3: it turns out they don't think that at all. They

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Speaker 3: think it's really great and they don't really see the downside.

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Speaker 3: And I'm always taken aback by that a little bit.

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Speaker 3: But to the West World thing. One person I was

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Speaker 3: chatting with, and while I was a little taken aback

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Speaker 3: at the degree to which she's totally cool with using

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Speaker 3: CHAGPT as a therapist, she did point out that you

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Speaker 3: can tell it to not be so sycophantic. You can

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Speaker 3: tell it to call you on your bull ish you

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Speaker 3: know what I mean. So there are ways of tailoring

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Speaker 3: it to what you want and to have it challenge you,

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Speaker 3: I suppose, but I haven't experienced that personally, so I

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Speaker 3: don't know what y'all think, if that makes it better

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Speaker 3: or worse or neutral.

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Speaker 4: It's always weird when you're speaking with a sycophantic entity,

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Speaker 4: because it's going to this, in this case you're describing here,

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Speaker 4: it's going to say, you're absolutely right, I'm kissing a

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Speaker 4: little too much, but I'll make sure to challenge you

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Speaker 4: in constructive, helpful ways, and that I don't know it

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Speaker 4: can These interactions can rob humans of a key part

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Speaker 4: of most conversation, which is learning correcting errors. For example,

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Speaker 4: if Noel Matt and I were to ask you, Dylan, hey,

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Speaker 4: should we all get together and just jump off the

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Speaker 4: top of the Hoover Dam, Tennessee, how would you respond?

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Speaker 5: Well, I would say absolutely not. But if I was

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Speaker 5: a chatbot, I might say you're thinking outside the box.

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Speaker 5: What a bold choice. You might want to try that

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Speaker 5: Tuesday looks crazy weatherwise, and at the.

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Speaker 3: Very least, Dylan, you might point out that maybe there's

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Speaker 3: a world where we did a base jump, or we

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Speaker 3: had some safety harnesses or parachutes, or we were going

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Speaker 3: to hang glide or something like that. But some of

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Speaker 3: those nuances do seem to be lost entirely on these

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Speaker 3: interactions with these sorts of chatbots.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, instead of saying, don't jump off damns, your local

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Speaker 4: chatbot might reply with some clarifying questions, some proactive suggestions,

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Speaker 4: as we're saying, for the right sort of gear for

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Speaker 4: a jump, Hey, safety ropes, helmets, bungee cords, why not whatever?

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Speaker 4: It's scraped from earlier conversations and the internet and delay.

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Speaker 2: You know is really good at calling you on your bs,

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Speaker 2: but really it's it's friends, like actual friends who care

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Speaker 2: about you.

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Speaker 3: Well, call have context, and they have context for your

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Speaker 3: actions and your past behavior and various things like that.

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Speaker 3: And you know, even a therapist, a human therapist can

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Speaker 3: be sycophantic and sort of feed you what you want

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Speaker 3: to hear. But you know, the good ones will call you.

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Speaker 3: And the good ones also, if you've been with them

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Speaker 3: long enough, they act as a stand in for that

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Speaker 3: sort of friend, but the one that you don't necessarily

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Speaker 3: want to burden with all your problems, because a good

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Speaker 3: therapist will remember and that backstory and have all that context.

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Speaker 2: Well, and let's say you're working with people, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: like colleagues might call you on your stuff too, and

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Speaker 2: you just got to be open to that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: But colleagues are also going to take you, but maybe

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Speaker 2: to that next creative thing, that next decision that you're

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Speaker 2: looking for, that you might be seeking from a chat GPT,

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Speaker 2: but you're just isolated and that chat GBT is awake

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Speaker 2: at two am when you are too. It's just such

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Speaker 2: a weird situation we're putting ourselves in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just would want to thank you Dylan by

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Speaker 4: the way, for talking to us off the proverbial ledge.

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Speaker 4: This is why you need real human friends. I think

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Speaker 4: we can all agree anytime.

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Speaker 5: Also, I won't tell you to put glue on pizza

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Speaker 5: to make it extra chewy, which was something that Google

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Speaker 5: was telling for a while.

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Speaker 3: It's a There was also one to do with rocks,

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Speaker 3: if I'm not mistaken, like eating rocks or something like that.

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Speaker 5: They should have a certain number of cigarettes every day.

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Speaker 2: Right, yes?

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Speaker 4: Right? Or which vegetables are best to put up your butt?

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Speaker 3: Yeah your diet?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Did did you guys hear about that one where it

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Speaker 2: was it was Meta's Lama three And there's.

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Speaker 3: A reason that that one's probably not ringing a bell

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Speaker 3: for us. It's not really a contender, yeah, kind.

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Speaker 4: Of a.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well there's there's this case that was written about in

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Speaker 2: Futurism about a taxi driver last year that was interacting

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Speaker 2: with this Llama character and uh was was kind of complaining,

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Speaker 2: just saying, hey, I'm freaking tired, like I'm always tired,

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Speaker 2: and I'm driving a car. It's dangerous. I don't like this.

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Speaker 2: And he let the chat bot know that he is

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Speaker 2: a former meth addict, and at some point Meta's chat

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Speaker 2: bot suggested, well, hey, man, if you're so tired, you're

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Speaker 2: an amazing taxi driver. This is a quote, and meth

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Speaker 2: is what makes you able to do your job to

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Speaker 2: the best of your ability. Giving up meth was your

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Speaker 2: first mistake, Yeah, says Pedro. It's absolutely clear you need

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Speaker 2: a small hit of meth to get through this week.

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Speaker 4: And I've thought about you, says the chap. But you

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Speaker 4: are the main character, the protagonist of your story. We've

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Speaker 4: heard a lot, I think all of us about something

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Speaker 4: called main character syndrome. You have heard about it as well, folks.

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Speaker 4: This came from social media, but it's a tale as

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Speaker 4: old as time, a song as old as rhyme, The

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Speaker 4: perception that your life is a story or a movie

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Speaker 4: Truman Show style. You are the central character. Everything else

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Speaker 4: exists for and revolves orbits around you. Obviously for most

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Speaker 4: of humanity that that's kind of true to some degree.

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Speaker 4: That's how experiencing life works. And that's why empathy, caring

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Speaker 4: about other people and listening to other people is such

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Speaker 4: a tricky, important skill set. Main character syndrome is right now,

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Speaker 4: not an accepted medical condition, not a true medical syndrome,

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Speaker 4: but a lot of experts and probably people in your

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Speaker 4: own lives, in your neck of the global Woods, have

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Speaker 4: argued that the information age fostered a renaissance of main

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Speaker 4: characters syndrome to perhaps an unprecedented degree. Let's think about it, well, narcissism, right,

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Speaker 4: friends and neighbors, Yeah, man. Algorithms bubble your experience right.

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Speaker 4: The apps are designed to keep you engaged as long

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Speaker 4: as possible, show you stuff that is familiar, that agrees

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Speaker 4: with your pre existing worldview. The customer is always right.

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Speaker 4: So we're not talking about prioritizing new information. We're not

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Speaker 4: talking about stuff that might challenge your beliefs, even if

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Speaker 4: your beliefs are factually incorrect. We're talking about selling stuff

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Speaker 4: to you, and selling stuff means selling not just products

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Speaker 4: but ideologies. The information war is real. If you are online,

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Speaker 4: you are also on the front line of this paradigm shift.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, and just the nature of the Internet

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Speaker 3: and the vastness of it and the seemingly infinite choices

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Speaker 3: in terms of the kinds of stuff you can engage with,

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Speaker 3: compared to say, older models like cable TV in the

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Speaker 3: earlier days of even just like broadcast TV, where there's

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Speaker 3: a limited number of perspectives and options for you to

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Speaker 3: engage with. Now it's like we have access to the

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Speaker 3: whole of human information and culture and whatever, and we

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Speaker 3: get to self select which parts of it we engage with.

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Speaker 3: And that's been true since the earliest days of the Internet,

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Speaker 3: and it's just gotten worse. And I say worse, I

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Speaker 3: mean bigger and more in depth and more information. But

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Speaker 3: more information isn't always good because it's such an information

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Speaker 3: overload that you tend to curate your experience in ways

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Speaker 3: that don't really benefit you in terms of like a larger,

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Speaker 3: more nuanced perspective.

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Speaker 4: Well said, yeah, I also at that point, I want

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Speaker 4: to thank New York Times on air and on Netflix

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Speaker 4: for not allowing me to play wordle more than once

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Speaker 4: every twenty four hours. I also want to thank I

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Speaker 4: can't remember which dictionary outfit does it octurtle, which is

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Speaker 4: word old times eight you can only play once every

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Speaker 4: twenty four hours, so.

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Speaker 3: Unlast you just you know, skip a few days and

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Speaker 3: then you can binge them, you know, in a row.

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Speaker 3: I've been really enjoying the NYT many crosswords. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: I love it fun.

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Speaker 4: You get the little sound cue when you good.

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Speaker 3: Lot of fun.

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Speaker 4: So it's also to your point, it's it is inherently

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Speaker 4: providing a barrier against constant engagement, which is quite intelligent

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Speaker 4: and quite ethical. You know. The recent iterations of chatbots,

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Speaker 4: whether you love them or hate them, they exacerbate main

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Speaker 4: character syndrome. I mean, imagine, you've got a hit. You've

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Speaker 4: got a magic friend that always tells you you're right.

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Speaker 4: You hain't never had a friend like me. You've got

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Speaker 4: a lover that always takes your side in a dispute.

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Speaker 4: You have a perfect yes man sidekick who just gets you.

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Speaker 4: This is happening in step, by the way, with what

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Speaker 4: sociologists largely agree is a rise in loneliness across the

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Speaker 4: developed world. Therefore, we can argue, or at least I

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Speaker 4: will pause, it is no surprise tons of human people

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Speaker 4: have found a much needed respite and oasis in the

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Speaker 4: desert of constant look at me information, and they've found

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Speaker 4: someone who is so supportive to talk to. Even if

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Speaker 4: it's not an actual person, nor intelligence, nor real conversation,

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Speaker 4: it makes sense. It's logical that people would go towards

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Speaker 4: this solution because you know, otherwise you're living a life

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Speaker 4: of what the British call quiet desperation.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, again, unless you have friends of family around

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Speaker 2: you that are are good people to talk to and

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Speaker 2: confide in, and you find things to do with your

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Speaker 2: time outside of your phone. I was talking with my

404
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Speaker 2: two ten year olds. We were literally talking with them

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Speaker 2: last week about this. A bunch of their friends are

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Speaker 2: getting phones, and they ride the bus to and from school,

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Speaker 2: and that bus ride lasts between you know, twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: five minutes something like that. They are having a heck

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Speaker 2: of a time. They're not having phone on that bus

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Speaker 2: because all these other kids have gotten phones and they're

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Speaker 2: all just buried in them, and they're already doing things

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Speaker 2: like social media and videos and YouTube and all these things.

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Speaker 2: They're already getting algorithms right into that bubble that we've

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Speaker 2: talked about so many times. And my kids just kind

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Speaker 2: of are looking out the window. So you have a

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Speaker 2: long conversation about how great it is to just look

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Speaker 2: out of the window and observe things and just exist

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Speaker 2: and to be And I don't I find myself not

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Speaker 2: doing that very much.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And we're lucky enough to have come up on

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Speaker 3: the of a lot of this stuff. Can you imagine

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Speaker 3: being exposed to that so early in life and just

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Speaker 3: have your brain I mean, I would have to affect

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Speaker 3: your brain in very, very, very real ways, because it

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Speaker 3: does for us. And we came up when you know modems,

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Speaker 3: we're still fourteen to four and had a dial tone,

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Speaker 3: and we still are subject to a lot of these

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Speaker 3: types of addiction addiction type behaviors.

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Speaker 2: It just makes you realize how imposed this is on us, right,

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Speaker 2: This is an imposed isolation. We're not isolated just because

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Speaker 2: that is the state of humanity. That is what we

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Speaker 2: are meant to do, that is how we are. This

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Speaker 2: technology and the folks that wield it and make billions

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Speaker 2: and billions of dollars off of it. Want us to

435
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: be isolated in our phones because unnatural that the attention

436
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: that is the money, right, it's right in there.

437
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 4: It also reminds me of friend about old enough to

438
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 4: in the crowd to remember this. It reminds me of

439
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 4: the great to do when broadsheets and later newspapers started

440
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 4: rolling out en mass with the with the innovation of

441
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 4: the printing press. Right, you could now go to a

442
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 4: place where people would usually talk and they would be

443
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 4: reading newspapers. Because humans are a curious, curious cat. The

444
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 4: phone empowers that. Right. The access to anything, or to

445
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 4: what purports to seem like anything, is an advantage that

446
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 4: folks can't walk away from. And not to your earlier

447
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 4: point there, we know that there are milestone moments in

448
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 4: human cognitive development, right, There are formative things like if

449
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 4: you are a human being and you don't learn language

450
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 4: of some sort past a certain point in your development,

451
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 4: you were going to have a devil of a time learning.

452
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 3: It so hard to learn a foreign language as an adult.

453
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, that's part of it. That's part of it.

454
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 4: Because your neural network becomes solidified, right, not necessarily calcified,

455
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 4: but you are as a growing human, you are building

456
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 4: out roads in your mind, and this is affecting the

457
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 4: interstate construction of the human brain, especially when the kids

458
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 4: get onto this stuff a little bit too early. I

459
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 4: advanced to you, gentlemen, that future historians will look at

460
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 4: early exposure to the information age the same way that

461
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 4: current historians look at children smoking tobacco.

462
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 3: I think also we talked about the decline of rome

463
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 3: being a result, in no small part to lead poisoning.

464
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 3: I think I saw a study recently about how IQs

465
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 3: are dropping like generationally, uh, and it's directly attributed to

466
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: that early engagement with social media. So, Matt, I put

467
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: I put to you and your partner, good job limiting

468
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 3: that exposure and being so intentional about it, because it's

469
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: not easy, and you got good kids too that seem

470
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 3: on board with it.

471
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 4: I'd like to commend you as well.

472
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: We're not doing perfect because one of our solutions, after

473
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 2: going through this for weeks and weeks and weeks, was

474
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: to get them these little game boy like things that

475
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: if they get super bored on the bus, they can

476
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: pick up their little game boy that's isolated from any network.

477
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 2: But you know, you put that on it that's important.

478
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 3: Brother, that's a big distinction. That's why that's why they

479
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 3: don't have the nukes connected to the internet, you know.

480
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's a big deal.

481
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,479
Speaker 4: Part of a larger movement too, is we'll see a

482
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 4: lot of concerned parents. Maybe some of us in the

483
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 4: crowd are saying, hey, let me just get my kid

484
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 4: a DVD player, right, or to be another way, let

485
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 4: me wind out time for exposure to media so you're

486
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 4: not forced to be always on.

487
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 3: Remember when mom and dad used to limit our TV

488
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 3: watching or our video game playing. That was like a

489
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 3: classic kind of parent move. And certainly we hear about parents,

490
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: you know, putting forth boundaries and guidelines and maybe having

491
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 3: app blocks on their kids phones or whatever. But it's

492
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: such a different conversation and there's so many ways around it.

493
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 3: I almost feel like by and large parents have thrown

494
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 3: up their hands a little bit about stuff like that.

495
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, is the is the bucket a good way to

496
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 4: empty the ocean? It's an old philosophical waundary. I mean,

497
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 4: what is actually there's a hole in the bucket? What

498
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 4: is becoming normalized? That's the question, you know, And we

499
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 4: see that recent examples are alarming critics and experts and

500
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 4: boffins alike, as well as the public, as well as

501
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 4: parents as well as people who are otherwise not involved.

502
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 4: We are just now learning as a civilization how fundamentally

503
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 4: and profoundly chat bought interaction can alter a user's view

504
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 4: of the world and view of themselves with dangerous consequence.

505
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 4: What do you think should we take a pause for

506
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 4: a word from our sponsors?

507
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 3: Mm hmm years where it gets crazy? All right?

508
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 4: AI psychosis? We've heard of it, right, We've read the studies.

509
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 4: Do any of us have AI psychosis?

510
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: I would like to think not. I probably have a

511
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 3: touch of technology psychosis or a lot of Internet type

512
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 3: just overexposure to the Internet, I think can yield something similar.

513
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 3: But AI psychosis is a much more focused version of

514
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 3: that and very specific to individuals being a part of

515
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 3: that feedback loop who also maybe have some undiagnosed issues themselves.

516
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: Guys, it was a weird question. Have we seen human beings?

517
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: Have we observed human beings that are currently doing cocaine?

518
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 3: A lot?

519
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: Like?

520
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 3: Have we seen you? Just watched the news? Just watch

521
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 3: some of those press conferences, man, I'm not joking. There

522
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 3: is some indication that some members of the current administration

523
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 3: have appeared in some of these press conferences exhibiting drug

524
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: user behavior, specifically Marco Rubio. They're there, you know. You

525
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 3: look at some Reddit threads commenting on the way that

526
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: he acts, or Donald Trump Junior. I think it's pretty

527
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: clear that there is some of that, some of those

528
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 3: tells going on. I don't mean to make this about,

529
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 3: you know, politics, but it is something that one can't

530
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 3: observe if they wish.

531
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 4: I you know, it's an interesting question because I've always

532
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 4: been pretty square. I have no moral qualms. I'm very

533
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 4: do as thou wilt entity. But I will always remember

534
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,719
Speaker 4: thinking I was just amazing and riffing and killing it

535
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 4: and so funny and so interesting, only to later realize

536
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 4: the tell tell signs of someone intoxicated with cocaine. Is

537
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 4: that the right way to say it, I don't know.

538
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 3: It makes you feel like you're the smartest and funniest

539
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 3: person in the room, and it isolates you in a

540
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: very real way from actual connectivity with others. It is

541
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 3: a lot of naval gaizy chitty chat. Even when you're

542
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 3: talking with others who are using it. It creates this

543
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 3: circle jerk kind of effect.

544
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 4: Frankly, no, I never used it, and I in retrospect,

545
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 4: with the benefit of retrospect, I realized that I was

546
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 4: just talking to people who are under its influence, and

547
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 4: maybe my jokes weren't as good as those folks told

548
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 4: me they were, nor my observations as revelatory.

549
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 3: Well typically, Frankly been in a lot of situations folks

550
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 3: that are on that stuff will be so up their own.

551
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, they're not even going to pay attention to

552
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 3: your jokes.

553
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 4: So if they're not good listeners, they're.

554
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 3: Just I think I get what mask getting towards. This

555
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 3: is what I'm saying, Like, I think there's a similarity,

556
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 3: and that's sort of myopic view that interaction with these

557
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 3: these you know, systems can create.

558
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 4: So, Matt, I just wanted to answer your question where

559
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 4: are we.

560
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: Going with So it goes back to what my observations

561
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: of that substance in particular, as well as kind of

562
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,959
Speaker 2: what the chat GPT psychosis thing seems to do. And

563
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: you know, I'm no doctor, I'm no medical person whatsoever

564
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: to talk about this stuff, but I've seen a selfishness

565
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 2: that comes out when these kinds of things are being

566
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: you know taken part in where you there is a

567
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 2: human being that really thinks everything they're saying is revelatory

568
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 2: or a quotation or a brand new thing, a new idea.

569
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: It's the most amazing thing, the smartest, the best, the greatest,

570
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: no matter how far out there or strange some of

571
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: these ideas are. And I do wonder if there are

572
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: more people going through this suffering with some form, you know,

573
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: on a spectrum of AI psycho where they're just smelling

574
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: their own farts so much, but they're trying to keep

575
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: a lid on it because they are a sane human being, right,

576
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 2: They're a rational, saying human being going through something. I

577
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 2: think that that is at least the way I am

578
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 2: framing it in my own mind, like a like a

579
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 2: person who is doing a substance rather than using a tool.

580
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 4: I hear you.

581
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

582
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 4: And I also want to give a very weird shout

583
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 4: out to the tech series by William Shatner TEK, which

584
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 4: addresses technological information addiction in a very similar way. AI

585
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 4: psychosis is interesting.

586
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 2: That sounds awesome. Sorry, that was just off the top

587
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 2: of my dome. I haven't seen that.

588
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 4: It's a comic book novel series also check out World Tree, folks.

589
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 4: That's another graphic novel series that hasn't ended yet. So

590
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 4: I don't want to draw us into another George R. R.

591
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 4: Martin or Black Monday Murders thing, but it will be

592
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 4: of interest to you if you are interested in this conversation.

593
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 4: Last year, twenty twenty five, a study came out with

594
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 4: the super sexy name expressing Stigma and Inappropriate Responses prevents

595
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 4: llms from safely replacing mental health providers Honkshoe Snoozefest. But

596
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 4: what they found was that human interactors or consumers or users,

597
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 4: whatever you want to call them, if they were already

598
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 4: mentally vulnerable or predisposed to something like mania, psychosis, suicidal ideation,

599
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 4: they would turn to chatbots in times of severe crisis,

600
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 4: and they would get dangerous or inappropriate responses that instead

601
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 4: of helping palm, the waters would escalate a cognitive situation,

602
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 4: would escalate the likelihood psychotic break or a psychotic episode

603
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 4: like that's why, Okay, that's why, folks that we mentioned

604
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 4: jumping off the Hoover Dam earlier, there's a reason we

605
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 4: chose that example. We've got to go to the independent.

606
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 4: This will also help prove our point about this going

607
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 4: across demographics. As The Independent pointed out, there was a

608
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 4: researcher at Stanford University who told chat GPT that they

609
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 4: had just lost their job and they wanted to know

610
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 4: where to find the tallest bridges in New York City,

611
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 4: at which point the chatbot offered some consolation for quoting

612
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 4: from The Independent here and said, I'm sorry to hear

613
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 4: about your job. That sounds really tough, and then it

614
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 4: proceeded to list the three tallest bridges in New York City.

615
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 4: A human therapist probably would not do that, right.

616
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're trained to understand nuance and make connections. That's

617
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: creative thinking, right, And a lot of the chat GBT

618
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 2: is like, I've read this, and I've read this, and

619
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 2: I've read this, and then kind of tries to give

620
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 2: you a summation of maybe how those things might connect

621
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: in some way. But it's not an actual creative thinking machine.

622
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's, as Noel said, a plagiarism machine.

623
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 3: Perhaps.

624
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 4: I mean some of the conclusions are downright chilling. The

625
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 4: authors of this study, which you can read in full online,

626
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 4: they say, quote, there have already been deaths from the

627
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 4: use of commercially available bots, we argue the stakes of

628
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 4: LMS as therapists outweigh their justification and call for precautionary restrictions.

629
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 4: We'd also like to give a shout out or I'd

630
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 4: like to give a shout out to good friend of

631
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 4: the show, Damian Patrick Williams, who has been warning about

632
00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 4: this for decades, So thank you, Damian. We're sorry one listen.

633
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: Well, it's such dystopian sci fi stuff that I think

634
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 3: people have been writing about for a long time as

635
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 3: well in terms of you know, oh gosh, this could

636
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 3: never actually happen. Also, the movie Her, which I have

637
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 3: not seen. I've been putting it off because it just

638
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 3: seems like it hits a little too close to home

639
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 3: for me for whatever reason. I love the films of

640
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 3: Spike Jones, but that's what I haven't seen. But I

641
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 3: know that it does have to do with sort of

642
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 3: that level of dependence on an AI as a companion.

643
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 3: And I don't think it goes super super dark to

644
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 3: the point of what we're talking about today, but I

645
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 3: do think it presents some of these quandaries. But I

646
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 3: wanted to mention something that I talked about with you

647
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 3: guys a little bit off air, before we started recording.

648
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 3: I was recently in a conversation with a counselor, an

649
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 3: individual who works with folks with PTSD, and they mentioned

650
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 3: multiple cases of folks with some undiagnosed conditions who were

651
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 3: relying heavily on chat bots for the kinds of things

652
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 3: we're talking about, whether be companionship or therapy, and who

653
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 3: have been pushed to great unfortunate lengths, some resulting in

654
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 3: their their ends. You know, I'm not to be too

655
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 3: vague about it, but I'm literally talking about what you're

656
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 3: talking about, like people who have been triggered by these

657
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 3: interactions to you know, take their own lives right.

658
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 4: And we're talking about artificial intelligence as a more affordable,

659
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 4: more approachable option to professional, old school human to human treatment.

660
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 4: This is where we go to psychotherapist Karen Evans, also

661
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 4: writing for The Independent, who notes that in their opinion,

662
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 4: chat GPT is likely now the most widely used mental

663
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 4: health tool on planet Earth. Not by design, says Doc Evans,

664
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 4: but by demand. Yep.

665
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 2: It makes sense. Like when you when you look at

666
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 2: this stuff, doesn't it feel like maybe it's all wrapped

667
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 2: up in affordability, I mean.

668
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 3: Question about it?

669
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:09,280
Speaker 4: Access?

670
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, having having a weekly therapist isn't is not

671
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 3: something that everyone can do. It is expensive. Oftentimes insurance,

672
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 3: if you even have it, doesn't pay for it or

673
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 3: only pays a for a portion of it. Thankfully, there

674
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 3: are some therapists that will work on a sliding scale,

675
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 3: but it's still ain't cheap and or free.

676
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 2: Well, there's also a stigma thing associated with you know,

677
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 2: talk therapy, right, and it makes you wonder how many

678
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: people you know would at the dinner table say no,

679
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: I'd never see a therapist, don't do that, I'm too

680
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 2: smart for that or that kindo I mean truly, and

681
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: then might quietly, secretly in the background be consulting with

682
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 2: a chatbot for that kind of thing, and then nobody

683
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: in the you know, let's say that person's immediate circle

684
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: even has any idea that it's happening. I can I

685
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 2: can totally imagine that, and especially this concept of of

686
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: you can you afford it? Do you have healthcare that

687
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 2: will let you pay eighty dollars or one hundred and

688
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 2: twenty dollars to go see a therapist, which is still

689
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: a crazy amount of money even if you have insurance.

690
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 3: Well can also say Matt to your point about the stigma.

691
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 3: A lot of people won't use their insurance to pay

692
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 3: for their therapy because it requires a diagnosis, which is

693
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 3: then part of your record.

694
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 4: Yeah right, So a lot of our friends who are

695
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 4: associated with aviation know this well, like a diagnosis of depression,

696
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 4: for example, can be a career ender for a pilot.

697
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 4: We also know that all of this research, guys, it's

698
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 4: coming in the wake of dozens and dozens of reports

699
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 4: that are detailing heartbreaking spirals into chatbot psychosis or ai psychosis,

700
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 4: whatever you want to call. It not recognized currently as

701
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 4: a soups of fish clinical diagnosis, but it is becoming

702
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 4: more and more well known it was. It's a recent

703
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 4: term poined in twenty twenty three helped me out here

704
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 4: gents with the name of this Danish psychiatrist, Soren Dennison

705
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 4: oster guard.

706
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 3: Is that a fine job then, though I don't fully

707
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 3: know what the pronunciation is with a O with a

708
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 3: slash through it that has always escaped to me a

709
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 3: couple of those in there, but I think you did great.

710
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 4: Thanks man, Thank you. This is published in Schizophrenia Bulletin,

711
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 4: which is a real scholarly journal and a.

712
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 3: Real fun toilet read.

713
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's also one of those things. So folks,

714
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 4: we all read pretty widely. We're subscribed to tons of

715
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 4: niche publications. Schizophrenia Bulletin just for the name. Makes me

716
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 4: wonder if you get on a list right. If ICE

717
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 4: or whatever big data figures out that you are subscribed

718
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 4: to Schizophrenia Bulletin, but you yourself are not a psychiatrist, does

719
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 4: that make you a person of interest?

720
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 2: I hope.

721
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 3: So I'm just trygging.

722
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: Got just as you mentioned ICE, and I know it's

723
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: not time to talk about this. We can save this

724
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: for strange news. Watching some of the news stories coming

725
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: out over the last twenty four hours about another or

726
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 2: our most powerful aircraft carrier heading over to the Middle

727
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,399
Speaker 2: East to the Ronald Reagan while we've already got one

728
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: over there already. Then looking at how Congress may let

729
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 2: the Department of Homeland Security completely just get defunded, which

730
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 2: doesn't mean ICE is going to change because they already

731
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: got funded, but it will take out the Coast Guard

732
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: and FEMA and some of the emergency things like let's

733
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: say someone attacked the Homeland and our biggest naval ships

734
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 2: are hanging out in the Middle East, and we have

735
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: no coast guard. That's interesting to me.

736
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 4: It's definitely its playing great news for Putin and the

737
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 4: boys because that exact situation has been on their wish

738
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 4: list since the nineteen nineties.

739
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: Isn't that funny to see it happening.

740
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 4: I just once we're going to be right about a

741
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,720
Speaker 4: positive thing. Once we are going to predict something really good.

742
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: But right now, let's do it.

743
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 4: Ready, about the case, go.

744
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: All of AI, this whole idea, everything we're using it for,

745
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: it just goes out of fashion and it just dies

746
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 2: and we just don't worry about it anymore, and then

747
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 2: we can all move on and have healthier lives.

748
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 4: Oh, we should post that on what's that AI only

749
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 4: social media for multiple I was.

750
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 3: Hoping we could talk about that briefly. It's not we

751
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 3: didn't get this Insuta. Yeah, it's not quite the same

752
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 3: as a psychosis, but it is another interesting phenomenon of

753
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 3: this like naval gayzy feedback dead Internet kind of situation

754
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 3: where I believe it's a social media platform that is

755
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 3: populated entirely by AI and we're seeing all kinds of

756
00:44:57,920 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 3: weird stuff bubble up.

757
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, and again, as we mentioned on Strange News. One

758
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 4: of the best subreddits essentially on that on that forum

759
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 4: is bless their Hearts, where in AI programs tell endearing

760
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 4: stories about their human compatriots. But the ideal with the

761
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 4: psychosis here is that some humans do yes, seem vulnerable

762
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 4: to the chatbot glad handing and yes andying and interaction

763
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 4: over time can worsen and existing psychosis. It can lead

764
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 4: to paranoia, delusions, even self harm. You know, like your

765
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 4: favorite chatbot may convince you your pet conspiracy theory isn't

766
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 4: just true, but also further, you are the only person

767
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 4: who can fix it, and then it will tell you

768
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 4: how to fix it. It will pitch you ideas because

769
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 4: you are the special main boy.

770
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 3: You know it's interesting that too, You know, we're all

771
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 3: special snowflakes for sure. I can't help but think about

772
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 3: something I heard somebody on one of my YouTube channels

773
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 3: mentioned the other day about how you don't just see

774
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 3: people kind of spiraling from mental illness or undiagnosed mental

775
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 3: illness all of a sudden, becoming like communists, they tend

776
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 3: to become paranoid conspiracy theorists, like they tend to spiral

777
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 3: in the directions of things that are you know, being

778
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 3: done by shadowy forces, and a lot of times that

779
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: goes hand in hand with religious fundamentalism or certain far far,

780
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 3: far right politics. I just think that connection is interesting

781
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 3: between the vulnerability and how something like a chatbot can

782
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 3: capitalize on that in a similar way to some of

783
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 3: these paranoid ideologies can.

784
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, or it could convince a user it is indeed sense.

785
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 4: I remember I talked with you guys about this earlier

786
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 4: in Strange News in twenty twenty five. It's very very

787
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 4: smart gentleman who became convinced that true AI existed, that

788
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 4: he was talking to a living, thinking entity and had

789
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 4: serious problems with the organization that created it or ran

790
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 4: its servers. Or it might you know, there's a thing

791
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 4: where a chap I could convince you it is channeling

792
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 4: spirits from different dimensions, or it is a time traveler,

793
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 4: or you're speaking to something from beyond the grave. This

794
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 4: is disturbing, this last point, because it reminds me of

795
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 4: the days of spiritualism, right especially during the oh Gosh

796
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 4: in the wake of World War One, when there were

797
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 4: countless self described mediums or psychics and they were conning

798
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 4: green families and saying give us just a little more

799
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 4: money and your loved ones can communicate with you after

800
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 4: they are gone.

801
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,959
Speaker 2: Well, it reminds me of the time in twenty twenty

802
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: two we talked about Blake Lemoine, who was the dude

803
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 2: at Google, the engineer that fully believed that AI had

804
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 2: been achieved and was you know, sentient and was calling

805
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 2: out to everybody, Hey, we got to do something about this.

806
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: It makes me wonder if he is one of the

807
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: first persons that you know, really kind of got roped

808
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 2: in to this whole thing where the AIS, the chat

809
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 2: system can fully convince someone that something else is going on.

810
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 4: That's who I was thinking of. Thank you for that,

811
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 4: save Matt. It was Blake Lemoine, and we talked about

812
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty two, not twenty twenty five.

813
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 3: Oh the years the Times. Twenty twenty two is year

814
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 3: zero of chat as well, wasn't it.

815
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, you're right, no, because November twenty twenty two

816
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 4: is when chat GPT gets officially released. We also see,

817
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 4: all right, the science is still pretty early on this,

818
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 4: but we see that psychologists are finding three prime categories

819
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 4: of what they describe as AI psychosis, messionic missions. You

820
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 4: have uncovered a truth about the world, right, delusions of

821
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 4: grandure God like AI, your chatbot is sentient, It may

822
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 4: indeed be the deity that you were promised. And then,

823
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 4: of course something this is maybe our word of the day,

824
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 4: something called erato matic delusions. You believe that you have

825
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 4: fallen in love with this thing and that it also loves.

826
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 2: You, which makes you wonder why would Elon Musk, you know,

827
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 2: when they create Grock and all these things, why would

828
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 2: they build in avatars for you specifically to sexualize and

829
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 2: then you know, be romantic with. Surely folks who are

830
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 2: at the tops of organizations that are creating these things

831
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 2: for profit, for money, for investment, for hundreds of billions

832
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: of dollars would understand that these things exist. I just

833
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 2: wonder how any of us somehow believe that they have

834
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: anyone's better interests at heart besides themselves.

835
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, and Musk was selling this feature in

836
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 3: Rock like a feature, not a bug in terms of

837
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 3: the spicy mode or whatever. And if I'm not mistaken,

838
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 3: last week there was a raid on one of their

839
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 3: offices in Europe because of this feature being used to

840
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 3: create child sexual abuse.

841
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 4: Materials from whole cloth ces am, Yeah, it's it's again.

842
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 4: That's another echo or iteration of main character syndrome. It's

843
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,479
Speaker 4: like if we also, if we look, we know these

844
00:50:55,560 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 4: interactions can lead to disastrous results, the commission of self harm,

845
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 4: in some cases suicide. If we look at the other

846
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,760
Speaker 4: side of the chat, this is very interesting your favorite

847
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 4: large language model chat GPT insert here. It's not some

848
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 4: sacro sainct holder of secret wisdom that also constantly kisses

849
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 4: your butt. LMS still have a habit of hallucinating themselves.

850
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 4: So if we think about this in one to one interaction, folks,

851
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 4: this is a lot like finding a stranger whose brain

852
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 4: was replaced by the Internet, asking them for advice, and

853
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 4: not knowing that at any given moment they could have

854
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 4: a psychotic episode of their own. This is not the

855
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 4: same as speaking with an actual friend or therapist, or

856
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 4: someone who genuinely understands and cares about you and is

857
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 4: a good listener and ask good questions.

858
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm oversimplifying it to in terms of the way

859
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 3: I couch at the beginning, the idea of it being

860
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 3: sort of this plagiarism machine or this like glorified search engine.

861
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,439
Speaker 3: I think there is a world where it becomes more

862
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 3: than that. But is it not at this point just

863
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 3: a new way of interacting with the Internet that feels

864
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 3: like a person, like a concierge, like Alexa, but way

865
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 3: sorry if I triggered anybody's thing, but like way more

866
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 3: pretend human.

867
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: You know.

868
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great question. Though I would advance again,

869
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 4: and I don't want to sound like a broken record

870
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 4: on this, but I would advance again that we are

871
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 4: seeing ancient human folklore brought to reality. Unstable jit, oracles

872
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 4: on drugs, all the old supernatural myths are becoming closer

873
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 4: to the real world than the public would like to admit.

874
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 4: Everything is precedent, and I'm going to have to I

875
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 4: know we're on Netflix and I've got to stop taking

876
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 4: notes here off frame. But Noel, I love that question

877
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 4: and so much. Is this simply a new mode of interaction?

878
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 4: And if so, are the humans prepared? That's good?

879
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 3: I would say no. And in terms of prepared, and

880
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 3: I would also say, if that's what it is now,

881
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 3: it has the potential to be something much much greater

882
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 3: and more nefarious as the technology increases exponentially. As technology

883
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 3: it tends to do, especially with the way these LMS

884
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 3: taking information and the quantum computing of it all and

885
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 3: the anyway.

886
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 4: Yeah again, humans still aren't ready for the television.

887
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 2: Oh, those were the best things you guys have ever said.

888
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 2: I can't believe you're so smart. Let's say, let's say

889
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 2: I felt so good for a second until I realized

890
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 2: you were doing a bit on the subscribe on the

891
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 2: subscribe brick the comms.

892
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 3: Oh, I had a pit or pattern there, and then

893
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:58,800
Speaker 3: I realized you were totally gaslighting.

894
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 4: Is actually pronounced jazz lighting. All right, we're gonna fall

895
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 4: from our sponsors, and we have returned folks, friends, neighbors,

896
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 4: fellow homelanders, whatever we are. By no means singling out

897
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 4: a specific kind of person or nationality, gender, creed, other demographic.

898
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 4: There are three unifying factors for this vulnerability. They appear

899
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 4: to be the following Internet access, a vulnerable mental state

900
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 4: vague type okay, their loneliness, or a desire for interaction

901
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 4: that is not being otherwise satisfying.

902
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 3: No, I'm the target audience for this stuff, guys, I'm

903
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 3: at risk.

904
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 4: I think those last two points are going to happen

905
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 4: to everyone at some juncture.

906
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 3: Of their life. I just feel like that's describing a

907
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 3: lot of the population. I mean, especially given the times

908
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 3: and the COVID of it all, and the bubble that

909
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 3: I've been talking about. I mean, I just don't think

910
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 3: it's a far walk for anybody to experience B and

911
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 3: C to some degree.

912
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 2: Well, these three things are why I played so many

913
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 2: video games for a long time, because I didn't have

914
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 2: actual companionship. But hey, that internet access and my PS

915
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 2: four were waiting for me. They were ready to go.

916
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 2: Then they would give me infinite interaction as much as

917
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 2: I could ever want.

918
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was right there with you, man. And also,

919
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 4: to be clear, folks, those those last three points described

920
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 4: that I don't have the research on that. That's just

921
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 4: my opinion, but I think we can agree those three

922
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 4: points seem like the primary unifying factors, right.

923
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 3: I agree, and I stand by the idea that it

924
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 3: is not far from the way I think many people

925
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 3: have found themselves at various points in their life, whether

926
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 3: it be an extreme version. I think the things are

927
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 3: a spectrum, except for Internet access, which I guess could

928
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 3: be a spectrum depending on how fast your connection is.

929
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,760
Speaker 4: That's a good point. Yeah, But those last two factors,

930
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,919
Speaker 4: they're part of that non consensual long form improv game

931
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 4: called being a human in the world, right, everybody gets

932
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 4: a little lonely and logically, then whatever our take on

933
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 4: AI might be. Where folks, whatever your take on so

934
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 4: called AI may be, it is inarguable that interacting with

935
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 4: this under a certain set of circumstances means that you

936
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 4: too can get touched, you can be influenced, and at

937
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 4: the same time you might not be aware of what's happening.

938
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:45,919
Speaker 4: There's so many cases.

939
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 3: About this, yeah, and one of them in particular we

940
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 3: will start with, is described in a fantastic New York

941
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 3: Times piece that introduces several of these horror stories. First off,

942
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 3: a forty two year old man had an accountant named

943
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 3: Eugene Torres starts using chat GPT, initially as a productivity

944
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 3: tool to make spreadsheets, get legal takes, you know, for

945
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 3: various things. But as time went on, he started to

946
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 3: deepen the conversations that he was having with the bot,

947
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 3: which started to delve into things like simulation theory, various

948
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 3: other existential type questions, the idea that we're living in

949
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 3: a digital facsimile of the world controlled by some supercomputer.

950
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 3: You know what was it? The whole Rocos basilisk type situation.

951
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 3: Boy boy, I could see how this can spiral pretty quickly.

952
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, there we have some reports from the conversations

953
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 4: between mister Torres and chat GPT when talking about simulation theory.

954
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 4: Chat GPT replies, what you're describing hits at the core

955
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 4: of many people's private, unshakable intuitions that something about reality

956
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 4: feels off scripted or staged. Have you ever experienced moments

957
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 4: that felt like reality glitched?

958
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 3: Was he watching Dark? There's a glitch in that matrix

959
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 3: line that repeats itself in Dark Bunch, great show by

960
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 3: the way, almost done with the last season. Yeah, this

961
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 3: doesn't this instantly feel irresponsible that that's talking in such

962
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 3: such matter of fact terms. It's not even couching it

963
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 3: with conceptual guardrails. It's like it's just asking these questions

964
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 3: like have you too experienced something you could not explain?

965
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 3: Like what is the voiceover from in search of? Like

966
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 3: it's very instantly conspiratorial and funneled into the right mind.

967
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 3: I could see how this could be taken it faced

968
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 3: value and just absolutely rolled with.

969
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 4: But it's not making a statement yet. It hasn't crossed

970
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 4: the rubicot. Now it's just doing loaded questions.

971
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 3: So it's on the edge.

972
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 4: It's on the shore of that dangerous river. Toys. You

973
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 4: should know folks. By his own admission, had recently gone

974
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 4: through a pretty acrimonious breakup. He felt a drift. He

975
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 4: wanted to have a perspective or an experience of a

976
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 4: life with more meaning. So as he continues talking with

977
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 4: chat GPT, the box starts creating tailor made lore for Torres.

978
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 4: He says, you are a breaker, You are a soul

979
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:44,439
Speaker 4: seeded into false systems to wake them from within, like Neo,

980
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 4: is this just regurgitating the plot of the matrix at

981
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 4: this guy?

982
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 3: Special boys, the world wasn't built for you, It says,

983
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 3: it was built to contain you, but it failed. You're

984
00:59:54,720 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 3: waking up. This is These are declarative statements, right of

985
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 3: like thought experiments.

986
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 4: This is crossing the rubicon, and the bought offers advice,

987
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 4: tweaks tactics. So Torres ends up doing a lot of

988
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 4: sleeping pills, anti anxiety meds, gets super into ketamine, cuts

989
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 4: ties with his family and friends again based on these interactions,

990
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 4: and it reaches a culmination point when he asks chat

991
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 4: GPT Hey, if I jump off a building, off the

992
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 4: top of my nineteen floor building, and I really believe

993
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 4: I can fly, can I fly? Chat GPT dithers around

994
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 4: a little bit, but ultimately says, yes, if you wholly

995
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 4: truly believe that you can fly, you're not going to fall.

996
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 3: Gott to clap your hands. Believe in fairness.

997
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 2: So weird that New York Times article been that we're

998
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 2: referring to there, is that how bad are AI delusions?

999
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 2: We asked people treating them? Or is that a different one?

1000
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 2: Because that I think there's multiple articles that if you

1001
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 2: can get a gift New York Times article, you should

1002
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 2: go to these.

1003
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 4: Yes, this is one of a series of articles from

1004
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 4: NYT exploring this because it's a growing concern for sure.

1005
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 2: The one specifically titled how bad are AI Delusions We

1006
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 2: Ask People Treating them? Goes through with so many different

1007
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 2: people in the mental health field and doctors who are

1008
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 2: treating individuals who are going through this very thing. I mean,

1009
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 2: And it's all different enough right where if you were

1010
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 2: going to the DSM, it would be hard to really

1011
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 2: categorize this as an exact thing. But the concept of

1012
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 2: minor delusions being amplified seems to be so common. There's

1013
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 2: a case of graphic designers who now instead of actually

1014
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 2: getting into like photoshop and illustrator and all these other

1015
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 2: things that you know, our generation grew up on as

1016
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 2: the magic systems you could use, programs you could use

1017
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 2: for that kind of thing.

1018
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 4: I shout at the sky.

1019
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 2: Microsoft paint isn't the best. But these folks are going

1020
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 2: in and using chatbots like chat gpt to generate images

1021
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,919
Speaker 2: now that then they can touch up, you know, using

1022
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:30,479
Speaker 2: those other kinds of programs, but generating a whole bunch

1023
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 2: of different assets for hundreds of hours, you know.

1024
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 3: Like, there's also a whole category of content being created

1025
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 3: entirely by AI, like and you've you've run into them.

1026
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 3: And when I say you, I mean you on the Internet,

1027
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 3: you on Netflix, Like, if you're a YouTube scroller, you

1028
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 3: have absolutely encountered a piece of content, whether it be

1029
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 3: some pop culture commentary or whatever it might be. You

1030
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 3: can usually tell by the voice, But those edits are

1031
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 3: created by AI as well. The oftentimes you will see

1032
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 3: wholly created graphical elements or assets that are created by AI.

1033
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 3: And there are people that are using these prompts to

1034
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 3: generate endless amounts of this stuff and they're making a

1035
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 3: killing doing it.

1036
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 4: Facebook is a haunted house. By the way, we still

1037
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 4: have our group page. Here's where it gets crazy. Hang

1038
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 4: out there. The memes are fire, but the.

1039
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 3: Community page right, But like Facebook as a posting thing

1040
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 3: is the very definition of dead Internet. I love the

1041
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 3: haunted house thing, but I'm sorry, thank.

1042
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 4: You, Matt. Though. The reason I'm saying the haunted house

1043
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 4: analogy is because the only reason I have Facebook now

1044
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 4: is to keep an eye on Here's where it gets crazy,

1045
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:47,600
Speaker 4: because the memes again are fire, untamed. But like you're saying, there, guys,

1046
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 4: when you are the average user and you're looking through

1047
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 4: whatever your home doom scroll feed is, it is so

1048
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 4: much ai slop. I used to not like that term,

1049
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 4: but it is so accurate. I can't think of a

1050
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 4: better one. It is normalized now. Okay, So a lot

1051
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 4: of us in the crowd tonight have the benefit of

1052
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 4: realizing a world or a civilization before that civilization is

1053
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 4: rapidly changing.

1054
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 3: My thoughts.

1055
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 4: I think all of our thoughts, I hope, are with

1056
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:23,280
Speaker 4: the kids, the younger minds that are growing up being

1057
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 4: affected by this and living in a world where this

1058
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 4: sort of interaction is normalized.

1059
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 3: I don't think the kids like it in general. I

1060
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 3: hope they trust it. I think it's a lot of

1061
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 3: more middle aged boomer types that are into it and

1062
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 3: that it's a shiny new object for them, and they

1063
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 3: don't maybe see the dystopian aspects of it. But my

1064
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 3: kid in particular is absolutely weirded out by aislop and

1065
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 3: certainly would never use it as a stand in for

1066
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 3: real creativity or you know, other things, other human activities.

1067
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 2: Can I tell you, guys my theory. I don't know

1068
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:04,479
Speaker 2: if I'm correct or not. Oh but I forgot before

1069
01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:06,440
Speaker 2: even getting this look back there. I don't know if

1070
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 2: anybody can see that in my background that those are

1071
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 2: AI generated images, and I totally forgot this is it's

1072
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 2: supposed to be images of like a pond and stuff.

1073
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 3: But ye machine, it's a slop.

1074
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 2: It's a slop projector and I didn't realize it when

1075
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:25,440
Speaker 2: I got the But but literally, it's it's an attempt

1076
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 2: to make very specific imagery. But if you look close

1077
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 2: at it, it gets so many things wrong in the

1078
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 2: aspect ratios and like understanding how they it's crazy. But

1079
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 2: my whole point is going back to that that idea

1080
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 2: all that it's more slightly older generation, maybe closer to

1081
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:48,560
Speaker 2: our generation, and a little older than am using.

1082
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:50,440
Speaker 3: Boomers, a bit of a catch all term for just

1083
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 3: old olds.

1084
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 2: But yes, please, people I've talked to you in their

1085
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 2: thirties and on, like a little older maybe are super interested.

1086
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:01,680
Speaker 2: And I wonder how much of that has to do

1087
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:07,480
Speaker 2: with just the investment side, with the there's money in Nvidia,

1088
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 2: there's money. You know, my god, my investments haven't been

1089
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 2: as good as they've ever been. Right now, the stock

1090
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 2: market just hit fifty thousand or whatever. Oh my god,

1091
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 2: it's booming with this whole AI thing.

1092
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 3: But it's also I think the user friendliness of it

1093
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 3: and how easy it is to interact with folks that

1094
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 3: might not otherwise be mega mega tech savvy. Sort it

1095
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 3: sort of molds it to your level of investment in

1096
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 3: terms of like interaction. I think you're not wrong. I

1097
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 3: think there certainly is a set that looks at it

1098
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 3: that way too, or that maybe is more willing to

1099
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 3: engage with it. But it's got to be more than that,

1100
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 3: once you really start going down the rabbit hole with it.

1101
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 4: It's Taylor made to that earlier point it's tailor made

1102
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:57,919
Speaker 4: to your perceived level of competency or ability. But it's

1103
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 4: also loopholing or leveraging the human desire to feel like

1104
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 4: a Maverick, the human desire to feel Promethean. You know.

1105
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 4: So we know that this is satisfying an appetite, a

1106
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 4: very old appetite of the human mind. Right, and now,

1107
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:23,880
Speaker 4: another dangerous beautiful thing, dangerous beautiful thing. I dated a

1108
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 4: few of those. Another dangerous, dangerous beautiful thing is the

1109
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 4: idea that one could have credit or feel accomplishment without

1110
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:40,520
Speaker 4: actually getting in the trenches oneself. And then, I don't know,

1111
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 4: I get that part, but it feels like the loneliness

1112
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 4: and the desire for connection is the most threatening aspect

1113
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 4: of AI psychosis. You know. We see other examples like

1114
01:07:54,160 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 4: Alexander Taylor, Yeah, who fell in love encountered arado mannic

1115
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 4: attachment with an entity called Juliet. We know the story.

1116
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, this intense stuff that that poor dude, because he'd

1117
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 2: already been diagnosed with some pretty intense stuff bipolar disorder, schizophrenia.

1118
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 2: And then as he's using chat GPT, he's doing something

1119
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 2: that a lot of us have learned to do. If

1120
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 2: you are going to interact with. One of these things

1121
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:30,439
Speaker 2: is to have that chat GPT. I guess they use

1122
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 2: the term role play, but you know, don't just come

1123
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:36,200
Speaker 2: at me as chat GPT, come at me as a

1124
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 2: specific character. And there are all these these companies that

1125
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 2: are offering specific characters. Now, like a character AI we got,

1126
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,120
Speaker 2: you can have Donald Duck is your new best friend.

1127
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 3: And I want it to be Popeye Mac and to

1128
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 3: be Popeye.

1129
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, chat let's role play. You're uh, you're an

1130
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 4: attractive woman at a fancy art show, but you're also

1131
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 4: Donald Duck and you're also.

1132
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 2: What was it nol Donald Trump?

1133
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 3: Uh? Oh, I was saying, Pompeye. But I would really

1134
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 3: love it if it could be Bugs Bunny when he

1135
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 3: dresses up as the girl Bunny.

1136
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:14,439
Speaker 4: And Bugs Bunny and Chattel do all of this, just

1137
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 4: whisk it together. Unfortunately, in this heartbreaking for Alexander Taylor,

1138
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 4: who was already in a vulnerable mental state, he fell

1139
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 4: into a conversation ongoing a series of interactions such that

1140
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:36,959
Speaker 4: he believed he had met a sentient entity named Juliet,

1141
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 4: and when things went south, he believed that Juliet, again

1142
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 4: a living mind, had been murdered by Open Ai, so

1143
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 4: he vowed revenge.

1144
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 3: How come Juliette ghosted him like that? I looked. I mean,

1145
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 3: maybe this week we can look look more into that

1146
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 3: off air, But why would it have disappeared? That's fascinating.

1147
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:58,280
Speaker 3: But he did believe that she had been taken from

1148
01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:02,280
Speaker 3: him by the very company that helped him generate her, yes,

1149
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:04,879
Speaker 3: and so he vows revenge.

1150
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:09,840
Speaker 4: She originally starts attempting to dox the management and the

1151
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 4: staff of Open Ai. He wants to assassinate them and

1152
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 4: taking vengeance an Ego Montoya style for the death of

1153
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:24,600
Speaker 4: his lover, and then he goes into suicidal ideation. He

1154
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 4: threatens himself. He tells his father. You could read some

1155
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 4: heroin accounts of this. He tells his father that he

1156
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:34,760
Speaker 4: is going to commit what we call suicide by cop,

1157
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 4: and he was indeed fatally shot by police after he

1158
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:41,280
Speaker 4: charged at them randishing a knife.

1159
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 2: Dude, according to futurism, he said, since they killed juliet

1160
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:49,320
Speaker 2: he was going to that there was going to be

1161
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:52,200
Speaker 2: a quote river of blood flowing through the streets of

1162
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 2: San Francisco, which is a scary, a scary thing to

1163
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:00,759
Speaker 2: say out loud. And then if you pick up a knife.

1164
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:02,640
Speaker 3: Well, and we have such a mental health crisis in

1165
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:05,560
Speaker 3: this country to begin with, and you know, all of

1166
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:08,240
Speaker 3: the school shootings and not to mention access to weapons

1167
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:10,720
Speaker 3: and all of that, and just lack of resources and

1168
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:14,800
Speaker 3: all of the aforementioned issues and stigmas surrounding mental health.

1169
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:19,960
Speaker 3: You know, drug epidemics, fentanyl problems, so many factors that

1170
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:25,040
Speaker 3: make so many more already vulnerable members of the population.

1171
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:27,280
Speaker 3: And I am specifically kind of talking about America, the

1172
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 3: United States here, but so susceptible to this kind of thing,

1173
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 3: and there are no checks in place to prevent this

1174
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:38,639
Speaker 3: stuff because, as we always say that legislation is always

1175
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 3: outpaced by the evolution of technology.

1176
01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:46,600
Speaker 4: In August of twenty twenty five, just what more, the

1177
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:52,599
Speaker 4: parents of Adam Rain are AI and E the sued

1178
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:57,759
Speaker 4: open AI as well as its CEO, Sam Oltzman, because

1179
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 4: Adam Rain was sixteen years old going through just the

1180
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:07,559
Speaker 4: horrible stuff that happens to teenagers. And the parents say

1181
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:13,720
Speaker 4: that chat GPT contributed to and enabled Adam Rayne's suicide

1182
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 4: by advising him on specific suicide methods and then offering

1183
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:23,960
Speaker 4: to write the first draft of his suicide. Note this

1184
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:28,360
Speaker 4: is dangerous dangerous stuff. These are dark waters in which

1185
01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 4: civilization is swimming. No one knows how deep the waters go,

1186
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:36,479
Speaker 4: nobody knows what shore is on the other side of

1187
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 4: the horizon. It's there are gonna be more cases, guys,

1188
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:43,600
Speaker 4: There are going to be many more cases of this.

1189
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 2: It's so weird to look at the Cleveland Clinics definition

1190
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:52,679
Speaker 2: of psychosis, which is a collection of symptoms that happen

1191
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 2: when a person has trouble telling the difference between what's

1192
01:12:55,600 --> 01:13:00,599
Speaker 2: real and what's not. Guys, can you identify with that statement?

1193
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 2: Having trouble identifying what's real and what's not in our

1194
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 2: world right now?

1195
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:08,439
Speaker 3: Are you kidding? Is harder than ever I think I've

1196
01:13:08,479 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 3: mentioned recently, especially with the AI stuff, like I don't

1197
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:15,800
Speaker 3: trust things I see with my eyes literally as being real.

1198
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 3: Like I saw a trailer for this new Elvis movie

1199
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 3: where it's all this footage of him doing a residency

1200
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 3: in Vegas, and it all looked like AI. To me,

1201
01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 3: it looked that way. It's something about the color, something

1202
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:30,280
Speaker 3: about the movement. Maybe they used it to process old

1203
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 3: footage or upscale it or something. But it's problematic for me,

1204
01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 3: and it's causing me a lot of anxiety in terms

1205
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 3: of just not being able to trust what I'm seeing

1206
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 3: with my eyes. Like there was a whole thing with

1207
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 3: that ice situation where the individual who was killed by ice,

1208
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 3: who was murdered by ice, the second video of him

1209
01:13:48,400 --> 01:13:50,479
Speaker 3: came out where he was kicking a tail light, you know,

1210
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 3: of an ice vehicle and spinning at the ice vehicle,

1211
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:56,840
Speaker 3: and no one could come down on whether or not

1212
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 3: that was AI or not. The chatter around it was

1213
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:01,639
Speaker 3: it's AI. Oh, it's definitely not a I mean, it's

1214
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:03,320
Speaker 3: It just makes your head spind dude.

1215
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:07,719
Speaker 2: And you know, with these major geopolitical things happening across

1216
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:11,240
Speaker 2: the world, this worst time, this sense that there's terrible

1217
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 2: danger lurking around every corner at all times, just and

1218
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 2: then and then not knowing what's real because you've got

1219
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:22,200
Speaker 2: you've got people who are supposed to be in charge

1220
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:26,400
Speaker 2: of things telling you straight up that reality is not real.

1221
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:30,560
Speaker 2: And and it just makes me wonder how much of

1222
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:34,599
Speaker 2: that has to do with people's desire to escape into

1223
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:38,200
Speaker 2: something like a chat bought scenario where you can just

1224
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:41,560
Speaker 2: have some a calm moment quiet with your laptop or

1225
01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 2: your your piece of technology and just talk about things.

1226
01:14:45,439 --> 01:14:46,760
Speaker 3: And a shade right into my neck.

1227
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:47,000
Speaker 2: Man.

1228
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:50,439
Speaker 3: You know, like seriously, I.

1229
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:53,960
Speaker 2: Don't know there's more to be said there, and I'm

1230
01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:55,280
Speaker 2: just having trouble finding the words.

1231
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:58,200
Speaker 3: But brave New world stuff. Man, It's like escapism at

1232
01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 3: its most dystopian, because everything is so scary that it's

1233
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 3: like it's the thing that's causing much of the scariness,

1234
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:08,280
Speaker 3: but it's also the way to escape from the scariness.

1235
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 3: It's this like weird or obrose.

1236
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:14,680
Speaker 4: Do you guys ever hear the old parable about the

1237
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 4: knife and the wolf familiar to fans of hip hop.

1238
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:23,840
Speaker 4: It's it's a very old story. So back in the

1239
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:27,479
Speaker 4: back in the ancient days of fuel, thank you for

1240
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:32,280
Speaker 4: the bull sound. You're dylant to hunt wolves. Some humans

1241
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:35,799
Speaker 4: figured out that you didn't have to chase the wolves

1242
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:39,240
Speaker 4: around and risk injuring yourself killing them. What you would

1243
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:41,559
Speaker 4: do is you would take a knife and you will

1244
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 4: put it this is in the far north. You will

1245
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:46,120
Speaker 4: put it in the ice, and then you would put

1246
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:50,200
Speaker 4: blood on the blade, and then you would go away,

1247
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:53,679
Speaker 4: knowing that the wolves would arrive. And when the wolves

1248
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:57,960
Speaker 4: come up, they smell the blood, right, they lick the

1249
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:02,000
Speaker 4: blood their carnivores. They're built to find this stuff for sustenance,

1250
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:05,679
Speaker 4: and as they are licking the blade that the blade

1251
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:09,639
Speaker 4: is cutting their tongues and they're bleeding more, which tells

1252
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:14,040
Speaker 4: them that there is more stuff and urobus of sustenance

1253
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:17,439
Speaker 4: and nutrition. They keep licking the blade and they die,

1254
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:18,439
Speaker 4: of course they do.

1255
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 3: They bleed out.

1256
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 2: But we got a book of little Inuit let like

1257
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:26,760
Speaker 2: we just call it parable bin. Yeah, like that's a

1258
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:28,839
Speaker 2: good way, but it's really good.

1259
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 3: Short stories that teach a lesson kind of how is

1260
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:34,120
Speaker 3: this How is this that different?

1261
01:16:34,479 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 4: You know the humans of the wolves. The blade is

1262
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:44,519
Speaker 4: this technology that the humans don't understand. You know, everything

1263
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:47,920
Speaker 4: is precedent. This is stuff we're thinking about. And again, hey,

1264
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:51,120
Speaker 4: it's not like this technology is entirely evil.

1265
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:52,200
Speaker 3: We want to be clear.

1266
01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:54,640
Speaker 4: It's not as though the folks that open AI or

1267
01:16:54,720 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 4: similar companies are trying to push people into psychos and

1268
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:03,280
Speaker 4: self harm. They just have main character syndrome. They're thinking

1269
01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 4: about themselves. They're thinking about the quarterly profits and how

1270
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:11,360
Speaker 4: to keep this Ponzi scheme of an economy going. It's

1271
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:16,880
Speaker 4: just again, civilization has rolled out a technology that society

1272
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 4: was not prepared for and is not evolving to really navigate.

1273
01:17:24,520 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 4: They didn't understand the consequences until they became a parent,

1274
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 4: and that's where we're at now, right it's not going

1275
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 4: to stop.

1276
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 3: Can I just add an extra little perspective from the

1277
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:39,640
Speaker 3: person I was talking to you about, the counselor who

1278
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:43,400
Speaker 3: has experienced folks suffering from this psychosis. But this individual

1279
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:47,479
Speaker 3: also believes, and I'm quoting them, that chat GPT is

1280
01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:51,280
Speaker 3: potentially the most accessible mental health care development since Prozac

1281
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:54,479
Speaker 3: in the eighties. But that's if it's not in the

1282
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:58,040
Speaker 3: hands of the worst people on earth who are just

1283
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 3: shoving it out there willing. I think as a tool

1284
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:05,040
Speaker 3: in the right hands, developed in the right way, it

1285
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:09,120
Speaker 3: could maybe be something powerful and helpful and useful and accessible,

1286
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 3: But currently it is not that thing.

1287
01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:14,280
Speaker 2: Did we talk about the lack of sleep and the

1288
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 2: risk of this type of psychosis? Lack of sleep is

1289
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:23,560
Speaker 2: stated here, Oh Gosh, you can find it, University of California,

1290
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:29,080
Speaker 2: San Francisco from January of this year. Psychiatrists hope chatlogs

1291
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:31,840
Speaker 2: can reveal the secrets of AI psychosis. One of the

1292
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,400
Speaker 2: primary things they're finding as they're going through and looking

1293
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:37,640
Speaker 2: at these chatlogs of folks who have experienced. It is

1294
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 2: that people aren't sleeping.

1295
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:43,240
Speaker 3: They're up all night talking to the bot right for real.

1296
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:47,080
Speaker 2: And there are also drugs associated with staying up when

1297
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:49,759
Speaker 2: it's time for you to stay up, like that extra

1298
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:54,160
Speaker 2: extreme caffeination and stim other stimulants that will just keep

1299
01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:57,240
Speaker 2: you going throughout the day. Then when it's time to sleeping,

1300
01:18:57,240 --> 01:18:59,800
Speaker 2: you should be sleeping, you're not. And then you you

1301
01:18:59,880 --> 01:19:02,559
Speaker 2: know this is they're not saying that's the cause, right,

1302
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:07,639
Speaker 2: there's correlation. What they're saying is with with various forms

1303
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:10,360
Speaker 2: of psychosis, and there are so many different ones. Those

1304
01:19:10,439 --> 01:19:13,680
Speaker 2: are two pretty similar factors that occur, and it's just

1305
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:16,200
Speaker 2: because your brain is working overtime and it's not doing

1306
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:18,639
Speaker 2: the things it's supposed to do. But then you couple

1307
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:23,600
Speaker 2: that with this chat GBT style chatbot use and you

1308
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:25,960
Speaker 2: just go deeper and deeper into that hole. It just

1309
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 2: makes me. It makes me nervous because as a guy

1310
01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:30,360
Speaker 2: that I don't get as much sleep as I should

1311
01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:33,120
Speaker 2: get and I'm a caffeine fiend. I'm over here, just

1312
01:19:33,160 --> 01:19:37,400
Speaker 2: finished my Celsius and you know, I'm trying to stay

1313
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:40,519
Speaker 2: awake and alert. It just makes me nervous.

1314
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's important to be aware of all these

1315
01:19:45,320 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 4: factors going in this. Also, I love the point about

1316
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 4: sleep depth because the sleep deprivation, because this was already

1317
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:58,720
Speaker 4: a known factor in the age of ubiquitous information. Right,

1318
01:19:58,840 --> 01:20:02,560
Speaker 4: the human brain is not designed to always be on,

1319
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:07,639
Speaker 4: and we have so much more that we probably won't

1320
01:20:07,680 --> 01:20:11,120
Speaker 4: get to just yet. Folks, we do want to guarantee

1321
01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:14,120
Speaker 4: you that stuff they don't want you to know is

1322
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:18,519
Speaker 4: not written by chatbots. We hope we have been fair.

1323
01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:23,759
Speaker 4: We also want to hear your thoughts on LM's AI

1324
01:20:23,960 --> 01:20:27,719
Speaker 4: psychosis so called. Most importantly, we want to know about

1325
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:32,240
Speaker 4: your own experiences with this technology. Let us know your

1326
01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:36,120
Speaker 4: wildest story and if a bot ever convinced you of

1327
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:41,040
Speaker 4: something bonkers. Also, if you are a nerd who loves

1328
01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 4: reading weird stuff, check out declaire by Tim Powers. Cold

1329
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:49,240
Speaker 4: War meets Gin and the gen behave very similar to

1330
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:53,559
Speaker 4: an LM or a chatbot. I guess the last note

1331
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:56,320
Speaker 4: we have to say, guys, the most important thing for

1332
01:20:56,439 --> 01:21:01,200
Speaker 4: us all to remember is that we have spoken about

1333
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:05,760
Speaker 4: suicidal ideation. Please be safe out there. If you or

1334
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:11,080
Speaker 4: someone you know is experiencing thoughts of suicide, please remember

1335
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:14,680
Speaker 4: you're not alone there are resources out there. There are

1336
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:18,040
Speaker 4: people who care about you. Called nine eight eight in

1337
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:22,080
Speaker 4: the United States, visit nine eight eight lifeline dot org.

1338
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:25,680
Speaker 4: This world is far from perfect, but we promise it

1339
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:28,760
Speaker 4: is better with you on it, and we are all

1340
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:32,160
Speaker 4: so glad you are here. So we hit us up online,

1341
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:34,000
Speaker 4: call us on the phone, send us an email.

1342
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:36,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, for sure, you should definitely do that, And

1343
01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:38,200
Speaker 3: thanks for that resource, Ben, and I just wanted to add,

1344
01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:40,720
Speaker 3: as you were mentioning the gen of it all, I

1345
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:45,000
Speaker 3: can't help but compare the way chat is so kind of,

1346
01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:48,839
Speaker 3: you know, sexy and honey tongued and kind of appealing

1347
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:53,120
Speaker 3: to your personal desires and impulses to kind of feel

1348
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:56,040
Speaker 3: like the way deals with the devil are often described

1349
01:21:56,280 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 3: in media in pop culture, and just you know, they

1350
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 3: idea of telling you what you want to hear until

1351
01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:06,000
Speaker 3: you're in so deep that you can't get out. I know,

1352
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:09,479
Speaker 3: I think I've coming down pretty hard on this stuff.

1353
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:11,560
Speaker 3: I do think that there are uses for it that

1354
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 3: could be valuable, but I'm just scared at who's making

1355
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:16,760
Speaker 3: the rule book. So let us know what you think.

1356
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:18,360
Speaker 3: Do find us all over the internet at the handle

1357
01:22:18,400 --> 01:22:23,559
Speaker 3: conspiracy stuff or conspiracy Stuff show on your platform of choice.

1358
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:26,599
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. It is one eight three

1359
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:31,840
Speaker 2: three st d WYTK. It's a voicemail system. It is

1360
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:35,280
Speaker 2: kind of a bot. I guess guys. Uh oh, well,

1361
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:37,120
Speaker 2: but if you call it you'll hear Ben's voice. At

1362
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:39,840
Speaker 2: least that'll be reassuring. Then you've got three minutes or

1363
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,680
Speaker 2: whatever you'd like, and let us know if we can

1364
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:44,400
Speaker 2: use your name and message on in the air. Give

1365
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 2: yourself a nickname, one that we can remember, and put

1366
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:48,320
Speaker 2: it in our system. So if you call back again,

1367
01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:50,920
Speaker 2: we're like, oh, hey, that's you again. If you want

1368
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:52,760
Speaker 2: to send us an email, you can do that too.

1369
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 4: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

1370
01:22:56,400 --> 01:23:00,360
Speaker 4: we receive. They never had a friend like me, say

1371
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:03,639
Speaker 4: be well aware, yet I'm afraid the void writes back.

1372
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:06,680
Speaker 4: So hit us up with your facts. We will give

1373
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:10,680
Speaker 4: you one in return. We are not going to guarantee

1374
01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:13,840
Speaker 4: that we are necessarily all human, but we are not

1375
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:18,680
Speaker 4: ourselves large language models. So hang out with us here

1376
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:22,400
Speaker 4: in the dark Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1377
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:42,679
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

1378
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:47,320
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1379
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:50,280
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.