Speaker 1: I miss a green for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball.
Speaker 2: In a brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday,
Speaker 2: Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready
Speaker 2: to run off of the hump.
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name
Speaker 1: is Garrett Morrison, and today is Earth Day. I can't
Speaker 1: say I know exactly what people do on Earth Day,
Speaker 1: but on the Frida Egg Podcast we like to talk
Speaker 1: to doctor Cole Thompson about golf's relationship with the environment.
Speaker 1: We had Cole on the podcast last year around this time,
Speaker 1: and as you may or may not recall, he is
Speaker 1: the Assistant Director of Green Section Research for the usg
Speaker 1: and he helps direct the Turf, Grass and Environmental Research Program. Basically,
Speaker 1: Cole works with scientists to identify research projects that might
Speaker 1: be beneficial to golf courses and the people who run them.
Speaker 1: He's a great resource for learning about what the golf
Speaker 1: industry can do to contribute positively to the environment and
Speaker 1: be more sustainable overall. Last year, Cole and I talked
Speaker 1: about general environmental issues as they relate to golf, and
Speaker 1: in this episode we're focusing on water conservation. Water might
Speaker 1: be the single biggest problem that golf faces in the
Speaker 1: twenty first century. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I
Speaker 1: say that we are in an era of climate change
Speaker 1: and increasing drought conditions and golf course superintendents are going
Speaker 1: to have to adjust how they can do. That is
Speaker 1: a question that Cole thinks about all the time. So
Speaker 1: let's get to it. Here is doctor Cole Thompson on
Speaker 1: water conservation in golf. Doctor Cole Thompson, Welcome back to
Speaker 1: the podcast.
Speaker 2: Thanks Gerret, happy to be back.
Speaker 1: So when you were on last year at this time,
Speaker 1: we touched on a broad range of environmental topics. We
Speaker 1: kind of covered the full gamut of issues. For this
Speaker 1: Earth Day, we figured we'd focus a little bit more
Speaker 1: narrowly and talk about water conservation. And I don't think
Speaker 1: it's actually a super narrow topic. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of related issues. But just to get people started thinking
Speaker 1: about this, what is the importance of the water issue
Speaker 1: in golf right now? How would you characterize that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's a good question, and I think
Speaker 2: it's important to focus on water use in golf. Golf
Speaker 2: courses require water, you know, plants require water to grow,
Speaker 2: and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.
Speaker 2: So it's important to be forward thinking about water. And
Speaker 2: I think I think golf course superintendents and facilities are
Speaker 2: very thoughtful in a way they use water today. But
Speaker 2: I think we can I personally think we can always
Speaker 2: do better. And so you know, there's only going to
Speaker 2: be more competition for resources like water as our population
Speaker 2: grows and we have to deliver that resource and the
Speaker 2: other resources that require water to deliver their products to
Speaker 2: our citizens, and so it's important as a society to
Speaker 2: consider it. And so yeah, I think it's a really
Speaker 2: important topic.
Speaker 1: Just in the time that you've been working in the industry,
Speaker 1: how has climate change affected the way that golf courses
Speaker 1: are using water?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question, and it's always
Speaker 2: hard to relate it directly to climate change, but you know,
Speaker 2: in general, you know, we can all know and observe
Speaker 2: that it's getting warmer, and even in my lifetime, it
Speaker 2: seems like from my perspective, the the micro droughts that
Speaker 2: we got in Kansas where I grew up are getting
Speaker 2: more prevalent and longer. And then maybe when we get
Speaker 2: the annual rainfall that you can count on, maybe it
Speaker 2: comes more less frequently, it comes in larger volumes. And
Speaker 2: so I think things like that have have become challenging
Speaker 2: for people just just during my lifetime. As you said,
Speaker 2: the growing seasons are getting are getting longer for more
Speaker 2: northern climates, and so that means that you know, it
Speaker 2: takes more water in a year to grow turf and
Speaker 2: so and then just when it's hotter, that kind of provides, uh,
Speaker 2: when it's warmer, you know, warm temperatures require or make
Speaker 2: a turf use more water to actually complete their growth processes.
Speaker 2: And so so all of these things point to, you know,
Speaker 2: a climate where it takes a little bit more water
Speaker 2: and also a situation where maybe you don't have it
Speaker 2: as naturally readily available through precipitation as you may have
Speaker 2: been used to.
Speaker 1: And I think this dynamic creates an environment culturally where
Speaker 1: golf can be in in a tough position just in
Speaker 1: terms of public relations. I mean, in a time when
Speaker 1: there's less water available and golf courses need more water,
Speaker 1: golf courses seem more and more wasteful to the general public. So,
Speaker 1: how would you describe the state of the public perception
Speaker 1: of golf and water.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the I mean you characterized it. Well, that's
Speaker 2: the typical perception people tend to perceive. Golf course irrigation
Speaker 2: is wasteful, and you know, I guess I can understand that.
Speaker 2: If you don't understand the way that a golf course
Speaker 2: functions or what the real numbers are, it's easy. It's
Speaker 2: easy to just assume that the golf is just waste in.
Speaker 1: Water, willy nilly.
Speaker 2: But when you really like dial down and look at
Speaker 2: the numbers, you get a different perspective. And so something
Speaker 2: that I commonly get asked when I talk about water
Speaker 2: with people. They've somewhere that golf courses need three hundred
Speaker 2: thousand gallons of water a day or something like that,
Speaker 2: and the question is, oh, is this right? And my answer,
Speaker 2: if I'm thinking, well that day is it depends Because Yeah,
Speaker 2: for some golf courses, that could be right around the
Speaker 2: number that they might require per day. In the cooler,
Speaker 2: rainier environments, it's probably more like thirty thousand gallons of
Speaker 2: water a day. Okay, So that's a huge range. So
Speaker 2: it's important to remember that and as we kind of
Speaker 2: bubble that up to the next level. So I guess,
Speaker 2: first of all, just taking those numbers, you know, when
Speaker 2: the average United States citizen uses eighty gallons of water
Speaker 2: a day or so, according to the US Geological Survey,
Speaker 2: And it's probably difficult for most of us even to
Speaker 2: fathom eighty gallons of water, Like we can think eighty
Speaker 2: gallons of milk jugs, but I can't even think off
Speaker 2: the top of my head how much space that would
Speaker 2: take up in my office as I'm sitting here. So
Speaker 2: even that level of water use is hard for people
Speaker 2: to comprehend. And so when you start talking in the
Speaker 2: order of hundreds of thousands of gallons of water a day,
Speaker 2: I just don't think people can comprehend that, And so
Speaker 2: it's important to keep perspective, and so I always like
Speaker 2: to offer that, you know, I asked the question, do
Speaker 2: you know how much water the US as a whole
Speaker 2: withdraws from ground and surface water for different uses in
Speaker 2: a year, and people usually don't, And it's about three
Speaker 2: hundred twenty two billion gallons of water per day, which
Speaker 2: is one hundred and seventeen trillion gallons a year. But
Speaker 2: so if you take that water use rate and compare
Speaker 2: it to golf. Golf is half of a percent of
Speaker 2: total US water use, and so it does sound like
Speaker 2: a lot of water when you're just told that, Hey,
Speaker 2: a golf course in the Western United States uses three
Speaker 2: hundred thousand gallons of water a day.
Speaker 1: And I mean it is.
Speaker 2: But if we get perspective, it's maybe it's maybe not
Speaker 2: quite the narrative that people try to sell it as.
Speaker 1: So it's a proverbial drop in the bucket, is what
Speaker 1: you're saying.
Speaker 2: I should have just said that, yeah.
Speaker 1: In any case. But all right. So this is the
Speaker 1: case with a lot of environmental issues where convenient targets
Speaker 1: can be selected for, you know, to be characterized as wasteful.
Speaker 1: And when it comes to water usage, looking at a
Speaker 1: green golf course in the middle of a city or
Speaker 1: in the middle of a desert can be something to
Speaker 1: point to and say, you know, what are we doing here?
Speaker 1: Why are we using water to keep that place green. Now,
Speaker 1: when it comes to golf courses in environments that are
Speaker 1: typically hostile to turf, like desert golf courses, I find
Speaker 1: myself having a bit of a hard time justifying that
Speaker 1: water usage and so I wonder what your reaction is
Speaker 1: to somebody kind of making distinctions between golf courses in
Speaker 1: environments where turf grass might more naturally and more easily occur,
Speaker 1: and golf courses in environments where maintaining that turf grass
Speaker 1: is very like presumably it is in the desert. Do
Speaker 1: you think that is a useful distinction for people to
Speaker 1: make or are there other issues that we should be
Speaker 1: considering here.
Speaker 2: So I absolutely think that's valid. I always think it's
Speaker 2: important to try to put yourself in the local environment
Speaker 2: where that problem is most prevalent, and so you know,
Speaker 2: you're right in one part. In some parts of the country,
Speaker 2: it takes a little less supplemental irrigation or a lot
Speaker 2: less to provide a golf course, and as you said,
Speaker 2: in the deserts, it takes more water. And so in
Speaker 2: those situations, it's important for me to remember that it's
Speaker 2: that's kind of a local decision, and what are the
Speaker 2: trade offs and policies and other potential uses for water
Speaker 2: in that environment. If the people say it's a public
Speaker 2: golf course, and the people want a golf course or
Speaker 2: that public green space, then you know, I think it's
Speaker 2: up to them to decide if that's a valid use
Speaker 2: of water of that resource, you know, for their community,
Speaker 2: and compare that to the other potential uses for the water.
Speaker 2: I do think, especially in you know, the more arid,
Speaker 2: warm lands or environments for for a golf course, it's
Speaker 2: important to right away make sure that we have a
Speaker 2: logistical golf course, right that we're that we're minimizing the
Speaker 2: irrigation as much as possible, We're growing as little turf
Speaker 2: as possible, just to make sure that we're being really
Speaker 2: thoughtful about, you know, only using as much as we're
Speaker 2: using as little water is required to provide the playing
Speaker 2: conditions of people want in that area, all right.
Speaker 1: So just to set the table for how golf courses
Speaker 1: currently irrigate and how they might change some of those practices,
Speaker 1: I think it would be useful to talk a bit
Speaker 1: about the history of golf course irrigation. I know this
Speaker 1: is not necessarily your area of specialty, but just broad strokes,
Speaker 1: how has golf course irrigation changed from the beginning of
Speaker 1: the game to the present. I presume when golf began
Speaker 1: on the links Land that there wasn't really formal irrigation
Speaker 1: going on there. There was some turf grass management. We
Speaker 1: know that old Tom Morris was very involved in kind
Speaker 1: of innovating that area. But can you give a general
Speaker 1: sense for how irrigation on golf courses developed from that
Speaker 1: point of like basically no irrigation to what we have today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'll give it a shot here. And so,
Speaker 2: I mean from from I think that probably the earliest
Speaker 2: forms of irrigation where you know, horse charm, mule drawn carriages,
Speaker 2: wagons full of water, you know, with the hose or
Speaker 2: some other method of distribution where you're taking a wagon
Speaker 2: a water around the golf course and probably only watering
Speaker 2: the greens early on, and things like that. And then
Speaker 2: irrigation innovation has been pretty impressive and it's changed golf.
Speaker 2: They've kind of evolved together in the in the United
Speaker 2: States and in the world really. But so after the
Speaker 2: horse drawn carriages, you know, you start to get the
Speaker 2: first sprinklers, you know at some point, and some buried
Speaker 2: pipe on the property with quick couplings that are underground.
Speaker 2: And so then instead of drawing or dragging a wagon
Speaker 2: of water around the property and watering it with a hose,
Speaker 2: you know, now you're taking a mobile sprinkler around and
Speaker 2: plugging it into a quick coupler and you know, maybe
Speaker 2: that's just teasing greens at first. Eventually there's a row
Speaker 2: of pipe and couplers down the fairway so you can
Speaker 2: water different parts of the fairway as time goes on.
Speaker 2: And it was really, I think, you know, not until
Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties or so, when the pop up sprinkler
Speaker 2: that we're familiar with today was actually a reality where
Speaker 2: it's buried in the ground and is hooked to pipe
Speaker 2: and it pops up and can deliver water on demand
Speaker 2: and automatically. That was another big innovation to kind of
Speaker 2: the electronic and hydraulic controllers that allow you to control
Speaker 2: the irrigation system from you know, areas besides where that
Speaker 2: specific irrigation head is. And then you know, after World
Speaker 2: War Two, you know, I think is when those kind
Speaker 2: of fully underground automated irrigation systems were becoming common. But
Speaker 2: it wasn't. It still wasn't until the you know, sixties
Speaker 2: or seventies until we really started replacing a lot of
Speaker 2: these quick coupler based systems with irrigation systems that were
Speaker 2: you know, automated and buried underground. And then even at
Speaker 2: that point, you know, there's there's been different stages where
Speaker 2: you know, you might have one or two heads around
Speaker 2: a tee and you probably have the green pretty well covered,
Speaker 2: but then it's maybe just a single row of irrigation heads.
Speaker 2: That was kind of you know, whenever I think about it,
Speaker 2: that's the oldest kind of irrigation system when it's fully
Speaker 2: automated and you have the sprinklers and everything. And then
Speaker 2: at some point we get two rows of irrigation heads
Speaker 2: in the fairways, and then you know, maybe the fairway
Speaker 2: gets bigger, maybe there's three rows of heads, and then
Speaker 2: you start to get the heads shown up in roughs
Speaker 2: and you see multiple heads show up around greens, so
Speaker 2: you can irrigate the greens and the surrounds differently. And
Speaker 2: so the irrigate, the precision of irrigation has definitely grown,
Speaker 2: and the footprint that we're able to irrigate on demand
Speaker 2: has grown with time. And so you can see where
Speaker 2: that probably begets more water use, but you know, you
Speaker 2: can also take a step back and see where that
Speaker 2: allows some efficiency where just because the heads are there
Speaker 2: doesn't mean you have to use them all the time.
Speaker 1: So, just talking about the present day, what are some
Speaker 1: of the reasons that golf courses might want to consider
Speaker 1: changing their irrigation practices.
Speaker 2: So, one of the biggest challenges with irrigation is delivering
Speaker 2: the water where you want it, when you want it.
Speaker 2: And you could have had a top of the line
Speaker 2: system twenty years ago, and it's it's base level. It's
Speaker 2: not going to compare to the you know, the uniformity
Speaker 2: of the systems that are out today, and especially how
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's it's going to be less efficient
Speaker 2: just by virtue of time, right, and components wear out
Speaker 2: and you know, maybe some deferred maintenance. And so when
Speaker 2: the goal is to deliver water where you want it,
Speaker 2: you want your tool, you want that arrow in the
Speaker 2: quiver to be to be efficient and provide the water
Speaker 2: where you want it, when you want it, and so
Speaker 2: that that can be a big challenge. And so it's
Speaker 2: the other component here is that playing conditions are better
Speaker 2: when it's drier. Right. In my opinion, nobody it's not
Speaker 2: really a lot of fun to be around on a
Speaker 2: wet golf course. And so I think that it's important
Speaker 2: to remember that that conserving water just kind of meshes
Speaker 2: well with fun golf and so even if your motivation
Speaker 2: wasn't to conserve water, getting water where you want it,
Speaker 2: and only providing that amount to get your playing conditions,
Speaker 2: it's going to be easier if your irrigation system is
Speaker 2: well maintained and up to date. And so, you know, again,
Speaker 2: I think it's important to remember that. I think superintendents
Speaker 2: are already very thoughtful about the way that they irrigate,
Speaker 2: and you know as and so I think we can
Speaker 2: be assured of that. And then just remember that, like
Speaker 2: we mentioned earlier, there's only going to be increasing demands
Speaker 2: for water in the future. And so if we already
Speaker 2: need to make some investments in the golf course and
Speaker 2: in the irrigation system to be able to deliver the
Speaker 2: water where we need it more efficiently, you know that
Speaker 2: needs only going to increase with time. So I think
Speaker 2: it's a good time to start making the case if
Speaker 2: we need to make investments to improve irrigation efficiency.
Speaker 1: So you sent me a few well established ways that
Speaker 1: golf courses can conserve more water and distribute water more efficiently,
Speaker 1: and maybe we could just talk about each in turn.
Speaker 1: I don't understand every bullet point on this list, so
Speaker 1: I'm curious to kind of find out exactly what this
Speaker 1: would involve. And you know, I think this is a
Speaker 1: great thing for golfers because irrigation can be a bit
Speaker 1: of a mystery, and so I'm going to learn a
Speaker 1: lot in just figuring out what are the ways that
Speaker 1: an irrigation scheme can be improved and can be rendered
Speaker 1: more efficient. This is just something that golf course golfers
Speaker 1: rarely think about, but maybe should be thinking about in
Speaker 1: this era. So why don't we start with why don't
Speaker 1: we start with precision irrigation. We've talked about that a
Speaker 1: little bit, but what are some of the ways that
Speaker 1: irrigation can be made more precise? And maybe you could
Speaker 1: just start by talking about what does it mean for
Speaker 1: irrigation to be more precise?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so there's there's two components here, and one
Speaker 2: that we already touched on a little bit, and that's
Speaker 2: just delivering the water where and how you want it.
Speaker 2: And so years ago, the sprinklers or irrigation heads that
Speaker 2: golfers will see were only able to be controlled on
Speaker 2: a block. You know, you would turn on four or
Speaker 2: eight heads at a time, something like that, And so
Speaker 2: you're already losing resolution in terms of the hydrologic zone
Speaker 2: that might be present in a fair way, that could
Speaker 2: be on a slope in the wet or end of
Speaker 2: that slope. The lower end of that slope doesn't need
Speaker 2: the heads to come on, but the higher end you
Speaker 2: know they might, but you turn them on all at
Speaker 2: the same time. So that's a lack of precision. So
Speaker 2: a big innovation was the valve in head control system,
Speaker 2: and that just means that you can control an individual head.
Speaker 2: You can turn on this sprinkler head without turning on
Speaker 2: all the others, and so that's that's a level of precision.
Speaker 2: Golf course superintendents commonly take it even further. If you
Speaker 2: ever see your superintendent or their staff out hand watering
Speaker 2: putting greens, this is an exercise and irrigation precision because
Speaker 2: they irrigate the green to a certain level with the
Speaker 2: overhead irrigation system the sprinklers. That is, to provide you know,
Speaker 2: just enough water to make sure they're going to get
Speaker 2: by for the day. Usually greens might be irrigated daily
Speaker 2: in the summer in certain instances to make sure they're
Speaker 2: not too wet, and then but as you start to
Speaker 2: get dry spots, especially in the heat of the day.
Speaker 2: That's when you see the crew out there with hose
Speaker 2: spot watering, and again that's just that's just a it's
Speaker 2: a it's a lowjack, but it's very, very definitely intended
Speaker 2: to be precision irrigation so that you're not overwatering a whole,
Speaker 2: over overwatering the green. And so again, this is stuff
Speaker 2: like this I think people overlook when we talk about
Speaker 2: precision irrigation. It's fun to talk about the technology and
Speaker 2: the new things that are out there, but you know,
Speaker 2: precision precision management has been in the DNA of golf
Speaker 2: course superintendents for a long time. For a long time,
Speaker 2: they've been treating greens a little bit differently because they
Speaker 2: know this one's in the shade and this one's south facing,
Speaker 2: and so that's really what it means is treating each
Speaker 2: area the way that it needs to be treated, given
Speaker 2: given its local conditions.
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Speaker 1: the episode. Let's talk about efficient water delivery, and there
Speaker 1: are two parts of this that you've identified. One is
Speaker 1: irrigation system's maintenance. So you know keeping the irrigation systems themselves,
Speaker 1: I guess up to date and you know, making sure
Speaker 1: that they've been repaired and things like that. And then
Speaker 1: the second part of that is subsurface drip irrigation, which
Speaker 1: is again something that I don't know about, and so
Speaker 1: we'll find out about that. But let's start with the
Speaker 1: importance of maintaining irrigation systems and how that helps with
Speaker 1: efficient water delivery. And I guess when you say efficient
Speaker 1: water delivery, you mean just like we're not wasting water
Speaker 1: in the process of getting it to where it needs
Speaker 1: to go on the golf course. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: And so you can imagine a scenario where if a
Speaker 2: irrigation system is poorly adjusted, you will overwater certain areas
Speaker 2: and underwater others. And you can see this well, will
Speaker 2: may be able to see this if they see like
Speaker 2: an arc, a perfect arc or circle in a turf,
Speaker 2: and that's indicating that, you know, maybe the pressure is
Speaker 2: low or something where you're not getting what we aim
Speaker 2: for right now, which is head to head coverage, where
Speaker 2: that that sprinkler will throw water from its location to
Speaker 2: the next head and the other adjacent irrigation head or
Speaker 2: sprinkler is doing the same thing, and those together are
Speaker 2: providing the precipitation rate that you're after. Right, That's how
Speaker 2: we talk about irrigation two is precipitation rate, because that's
Speaker 2: what we're out of or that's what we're trying to replace,
Speaker 2: and so so that that delivers a precipitation rate you're after.
Speaker 2: If one head is not throwing far enough for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: then the precipitation rate is going to be light. And
Speaker 2: so you can you can start to see that if
Speaker 2: you see this kind of circular area and you just
Speaker 2: know that, you know, for whatever reason, the irrigation system
Speaker 2: is not adjusted well and the uniformity of the water
Speaker 2: delivery is is just not where it needs to be.
Speaker 1: And that can be solved by, you know, often by
Speaker 1: just addressing the mechanism that delivers the water, making sure
Speaker 1: it's repaired, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so irrigation heads, you know, themselves, can
Speaker 2: go bad. It can be a pressure situation where there's
Speaker 2: not enough pressure to the head and that can that
Speaker 2: can be poor design or routing of the pipe. That
Speaker 2: can be a problem with the pump that's delivering the
Speaker 2: water to the system. It can be nozzles that are
Speaker 2: bad in the heads that are that are just not
Speaker 2: throwing the water the way they that the design intended.
Speaker 2: It can it can be a list of things. It
Speaker 2: can also be a very simple thing like having a
Speaker 2: level sprinkler head. A sprinkler head needs to be level
Speaker 2: with the ground to make sure that it's and also
Speaker 2: not low and set below the surface. So if you've
Speaker 2: ever seen a sprinkler head, you know, hitting a tree
Speaker 2: or a bush or the ground or tall grass and
Speaker 2: not throwing water the way it's intended to, that that's
Speaker 2: affecting the delivery of water.
Speaker 1: Yeah, welcome to my lawn outside, just like yeah, the
Speaker 1: irrigation heads are all over the place, all right. So
Speaker 1: subsurface drip irrigation is part of this question of efficient
Speaker 1: water delivery. What is subsurface drip irrigation? Is it a
Speaker 1: new thing? And is it something that not many golf
Speaker 1: courses have?
Speaker 2: So it is not a new thing in relative terms,
Speaker 2: but it's also not something that a lot of golf
Speaker 2: courses use. There are some that have it in different locations.
Speaker 2: You might see it on bunker faces or things like
Speaker 2: that that are hard or difficult to water with sprinklers.
Speaker 2: But basically, what where you would most commonly see it,
Speaker 2: and I should correct myself. I bet a lot of
Speaker 2: golf courses do have it in landscaping beds because that's
Speaker 2: where that's where we see a lot of drip irrigation.
Speaker 2: Even in residential settings, it's very common, and it's it's
Speaker 2: just this buried pipe, or it might be in the
Speaker 2: mulch of a planning bed and it has emitters or
Speaker 2: holes cut in the pipe, or there's a style of
Speaker 2: pipe that just kind of seeps where it's designed to
Speaker 2: kind of akin to a soaker hose if you ever
Speaker 2: have to water your foundation, depending on where you live
Speaker 2: in the country, and it's just putting water out at
Speaker 2: at at a rate that you want, and it's the
Speaker 2: water ideally is is not being exposed to the air.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's just being emitted into the soil and
Speaker 2: then it passes through the soil by capillary flow. You know,
Speaker 2: water just flows from high to low concentration and you
Speaker 2: you you deliver the water to the root zone without
Speaker 2: ever having to throw it in the air. And so
Speaker 2: it's again it's traditionally been used in landscaping beds. It's
Speaker 2: we see it more and more in turf. It's it's
Speaker 2: I've seen it in you know kind of the turf islands.
Speaker 2: We call them into suite in between a sidewalk and
Speaker 2: a curb where there's really no use for a sprinkler,
Speaker 2: the drip can be used there. And we've even funded
Speaker 2: some projects in recent years where people are experimenting with
Speaker 2: it on isolated tea boxes and saving a tremendous amount
Speaker 2: of water twofold because they're not again watering the surround
Speaker 2: of the tea, they're only watering the tea. And because
Speaker 2: of the efficiency of not losing water to evaporation and
Speaker 2: just the really efficient delivery of the water. I mean,
Speaker 2: you can save up to eighty percent of water compared
Speaker 2: to sprinkler irrigation if you get that subsurface drip system
Speaker 2: tuned the right way. And so it's not without challenges.
Speaker 2: I mean in turf we also air eate, We punch
Speaker 2: holes in the ground, and we top dress, and we
Speaker 2: do all these things that could potentially damage this drip line.
Speaker 2: And if you were going to irrigate a fairway, you
Speaker 2: would have to lay a lot of drip line because
Speaker 2: it's got to be you know, eight or so inches
Speaker 2: apart and just a few inches deep. And so it's
Speaker 2: not without challenges, but the efficiency is so great that
Speaker 2: I think we can overcome some of those challenges to
Speaker 2: use this as a as a more and more as
Speaker 2: a tool for water conservation and golf.
Speaker 1: So my understanding of what you're saying is that the
Speaker 1: kind of traditional model of irrigating golf courses has depends
Speaker 1: did on these sprinkler heads that throw water into the air,
Speaker 1: and of course some of the water goes away and
Speaker 1: before it hits the turf, whereas subsurface drip irrigation it's
Speaker 1: it's almost like direct injection, like it it gets it,
Speaker 1: it's right into where it needs to be. But subsurface
Speaker 1: drip irrigation, if I understand correctly, has traditionally not been
Speaker 1: used extensively with turf. Now would subsurface drip irrigation work
Speaker 1: best and kind of these sort of specialized applications as
Speaker 1: opposed to general coverage, what it work best in places
Speaker 1: like teeing areas and things like that.
Speaker 2: I think that's a lot. So first of all, you
Speaker 2: thank you for explaining that better than me. That's exactly
Speaker 2: what drip irrigation is. And and yes, I think the
Speaker 2: first kind of good target for using drip irrigation are
Speaker 2: you know, bunker faces, Tea's things like that. But I
Speaker 2: think we can go beyond that. I think I think
Speaker 2: we just have to take the step to especially where
Speaker 2: water is really precious and limiting in some geographies, you know,
Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's time to to to
Speaker 2: give it a try and and and use it a
Speaker 2: little more broadly for more broad coverage that part of
Speaker 2: the catches you you probably still need overhead irrigation. You
Speaker 2: probably still need sprinklers so you can water, infertilizer or
Speaker 2: other for other uses, or if you have to seed.
Speaker 2: I think you can't. You can establish grass with drip irrigation,
Speaker 2: but it's you know, there are still times. I guess
Speaker 2: what I'm trying to say is where you might want
Speaker 2: that irrigation head, so you might end up having both.
Speaker 2: This might just be an add on to an existing
Speaker 2: irrigation system, but it could could really increase efficiency and
Speaker 2: I think the people that are using it now for
Speaker 2: turf irrigation on a golf course would really be considered innovative. Again,
Speaker 2: I don't want to give the message that it's not
Speaker 2: out there. People are using it, but it's it's definitely
Speaker 2: one of the lesser used things that that has been
Speaker 2: known for a while.
Speaker 1: All Right. So the remaining ways that courses can can
Speaker 1: serve more water that you sent me are things that
Speaker 1: I am a bit more familiar with than the kind
Speaker 1: of irrigation system fundamentals that that we've been talking about
Speaker 1: so far. These the rest of these things are things
Speaker 1: that golfers will actually see. One is efficient water storage.
Speaker 1: This won't necessarily be a playing element on a golf course,
Speaker 1: but what you mean by this is capturing more water
Speaker 1: and you know, you know, building some infrastructure on the
Speaker 1: golf course so that you know, water that comes down naturally,
Speaker 1: can you know, sort of efficiently go to another place
Speaker 1: on the golf course, you know, like a basin or
Speaker 1: a pond or something like that, so that it can
Speaker 1: be captured there and it doesn't just go to waste.
Speaker 1: So can you talk about how golf courses can more
Speaker 1: efficiently store water and then more efficiently divert water as well,
Speaker 1: and how this can help courses concern or more water.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I don't think I have much to add
Speaker 2: on the on the on the storage component. I think
Speaker 2: you characterize that well where you know, it's just it's
Speaker 2: just capturing what we can from natural precipitation so that
Speaker 2: we can use it for irrigation. And essentially you're creating
Speaker 2: a surface water that you're going to use to irrigate
Speaker 2: the golf course. And and this is pretty common. And
Speaker 2: if you have this setup, you know, it's common for
Speaker 2: a golf course maybe to be able to supplement that
Speaker 2: that irrigation pond with municipal water if they need to,
Speaker 2: but many most of the time they may not need
Speaker 2: to do that. So I don't think I need to
Speaker 2: try to add anything there the diversion component, you know,
Speaker 2: for me, as always, we're just diverting the use of
Speaker 2: what would have been potable water. And this has been
Speaker 2: about fifteen percent of golf courses, is our best estimate
Speaker 2: right now, use affluent water or recycled waste water for irrigation.
Speaker 2: And it's just you know, it's it's pretty salty water,
Speaker 2: but it's it's water that has been treated and so
Speaker 2: it's it's appropriate for you use for irrigation. And it
Speaker 2: just reduces the strain on the potable water supply.
Speaker 1: And this might factor into something that we talked about
Speaker 1: last year when you were on the podcast which is
Speaker 1: ecosystem services that golf courses can provide. And I think
Speaker 1: that water storage, water diversion can contribute to these services
Speaker 1: that a golf course might provide the surrounding community, especially
Speaker 1: water storage. Could you talk about how water storage might
Speaker 1: actually be important for the area surrounding a golf course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. And so especially during a
Speaker 2: storm event where you've got you've got a lot of
Speaker 2: water and it's going to go somewhere and maybe flood
Speaker 2: the community and flood some infrastructure. Golf courses are these
Speaker 2: green spaces that are you know, they're poorous that the
Speaker 2: water can infiltrate the soil, and so they can serve
Speaker 2: as kind of detention basins to to divert storm water from,
Speaker 2: you know, infrastructure that might have otherwise flood. And we've
Speaker 2: been supporting some scientists that have been estimating the potential
Speaker 2: for golf courses to do that, and it is pretty
Speaker 2: interesting to see, especially in certain locations, how a golf
Speaker 2: course can provide that service to a community and help
Speaker 2: prevent some flooding.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about drought tolerant grasses. These I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm right or wrong about this, but
Speaker 1: I feel like I've been hearing more and more about
Speaker 1: drought tolerant strains of turf lately than I had at
Speaker 1: any time before. I know, these are becoming It's a
Speaker 1: huge topic among golf courses in California and other places
Speaker 1: that are struggling with drought right now. So what are
Speaker 1: some of the latest developments on the drought tolerant grass front.
Speaker 2: You know, this is kind of part of the long
Speaker 2: game of improving drought tolerance and the water footprint of golf.
Speaker 2: When you know, there were a series of droughts in
Speaker 2: the seventies and eighties that really kind of led to
Speaker 2: the creation of the research program that I manage, and
Speaker 2: it was all one of the main initiatives was to
Speaker 2: develop grasses that were more drought tolerant. And you know,
Speaker 2: fortunately for people in the Southern United States, these grasses
Speaker 2: have more or less kind of existed there for a while.
Speaker 2: It's the Bermuda grasses of the world that I mentioned
Speaker 2: earlier that are just to have lower water use rates,
Speaker 2: but they've been continuously improved to have through breeding programs
Speaker 2: at universities and private companies to have better turf traits,
Speaker 2: you know, to grow more compactly to be you know,
Speaker 2: fine textured and dense and provide the golf conditioning that
Speaker 2: we want. And then you mentioned California. That's another area that,
Speaker 2: especially along the coast, traditionally has been more cool season grasses.
Speaker 2: That the temperatures in that climate really favor cool season grasses,
Speaker 2: but the arid nature of the climate favors warm season
Speaker 2: grasses more. We would like to see water use efficiency
Speaker 2: and we're seeing lots of in the last few years,
Speaker 2: you know, lots of regrassing programs in in California and
Speaker 2: in the transition zone to where people are making the
Speaker 2: change from cool season grasses. And you know, I think
Speaker 2: off the top, you can be pretty comfortable that a
Speaker 2: golf course is going to save about twenty five percent
Speaker 2: in water just from making that transition, and it could
Speaker 2: be more, and then they could have other you know,
Speaker 2: economic savings because these grasses tend to also you know,
Speaker 2: require a little less fertilizer, they have fewer pests, and
Speaker 2: so it's a compounding factor where it can be a
Speaker 2: good a good investment in many ways, even if the
Speaker 2: original plan was just to reduce water use in some
Speaker 2: way and so that's where the developments have primarily been
Speaker 2: are trying to get these warm season grasses so they
Speaker 2: can be used more locations. But I think we can
Speaker 2: you know, there's also been developments in cool season grasses
Speaker 2: for the northern United States because you know, we started
Speaker 2: talking about climate change and the fact that you know,
Speaker 2: the more northern parts of the United States are getting warmer,
Speaker 2: and so that's probably also helping with the adaptation of
Speaker 2: some of these grasses that are typically more southern grasses.
Speaker 2: But you know, I think we can really focus a
Speaker 2: little bit more on drought tolerance and salinity tolerance and
Speaker 2: things like that, and cool season grasses as well, and
Speaker 2: probably make some gains to help the areas where currently
Speaker 2: the warm season grasses are not well adapted. And so
Speaker 2: that's that's definitely still a frontier and something we need
Speaker 2: to work.
Speaker 1: On all right now. Overall, reducing the amount of irrigated plants,
Speaker 1: both turf and non turf. That is the other big
Speaker 1: front in trying to conserve water. So we've talked so
Speaker 1: far about you know, just making irrigation systems more precise
Speaker 1: and more efficient, capturing water, diverting water in efficient ways.
Speaker 1: We've talked about drought tolerant grasses. That's that's a big frontier.
Speaker 1: Reducing the amount of irrigated plants on a golf course
Speaker 1: is in many ways a design question, and so it
Speaker 1: excites me a little bit. You know, this podcast is
Speaker 1: very much about golf course architecture and golf course design
Speaker 1: a lot of the times. And so when courses are
Speaker 1: looking to reduce the amount of stuff that they're irrigating,
Speaker 1: how do they typically go about that and what are
Speaker 1: some of the big questions that they need to ask?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I think you're right, it is a
Speaker 2: design question, and it comes down to what's you know,
Speaker 2: what is a what is a golf course? And kind
Speaker 2: of philosophically, and if we look at you know, the
Speaker 2: numbers right now for land use on a golf course,
Speaker 2: a golf course is one hundred and fifty or some
Speaker 2: acres and eighty to ninety of that is maintained turf.
Speaker 2: But that's it's on the decline, and I think, you know,
Speaker 2: this is where we'll probably see more of that. And
Speaker 2: so I think the consideration to your design point is,
Speaker 2: you know, where are the playing corridors, where are the
Speaker 2: golfers going? Where you need turf to to have the
Speaker 2: routing that's desired, and how do you want people to
Speaker 2: play that course? And where do you where do you
Speaker 2: not need the turf? And where can where can you
Speaker 2: save And because we know that with taking turf out
Speaker 2: of the out of play and naturalizing it and in
Speaker 2: some way, you know, saves water and saves other resources
Speaker 2: and saves emissions because you're not gonna have to mow
Speaker 2: as much, and so it's it can be a benefit
Speaker 2: all around. I added other plants in there because you know,
Speaker 2: people I think sometimes think we're just going to turn
Speaker 2: off the sprinklers and and there you go. We've taken
Speaker 2: turf out of play. And in most cases that's that's
Speaker 2: not going to be a desirable situation. There's going to
Speaker 2: be some type of redesign, regrading, re establishment of the area.
Speaker 2: Even in the West, it's often some zero component where
Speaker 2: there's you know, some dg some some zero plants, rocks,
Speaker 2: other things like that, and and you need to install
Speaker 2: irrigation for those plants as well. They're probably not going
Speaker 2: to thrive without a little bit of that drip irrigation
Speaker 2: we talked about earlier. So there's an investment there as well,
Speaker 2: and plant material and infegation in irrigation infrastructure. So I
Speaker 2: guess it's just important to remember that that if you
Speaker 2: whatever you replace, you might still be using water unless
Speaker 2: you just go completely to a non vegetated landscape or
Speaker 2: or something that you're expecting to turn over and recover,
Speaker 2: you know, in the wet parts of the year and
Speaker 2: just go away in the dry parts of the year.
Speaker 2: And there's some opportunities to do that. Some of the
Speaker 2: some of the desert grasses and things like that can
Speaker 2: can really tolerate an extended period of drought and then
Speaker 2: they recover very well when it rains for the for
Speaker 2: the amount of traffic and and the you know, esthetic
Speaker 2: that they're providing. So it's it's it's a nuanced question,
Speaker 2: but that that's where I come from on taking turf
Speaker 2: out of play and considering what that actually means for
Speaker 2: the golf course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, some of what you're saying about, you know, what
Speaker 1: might replace turf for what might remain after you take
Speaker 1: out turf gets at a problem that superintendents have often
Speaker 1: brought up with me when I start talking about the
Speaker 1: wonders of naturalized areas, and often the reaction of superintendents
Speaker 1: is man, you don't know how much work it takes
Speaker 1: to maintain these supposedly naturalized areas, and so what are
Speaker 1: some of the challenges there and how can golf courses
Speaker 1: address them? And you know, will it just take more labor?
Speaker 1: Are we replacing irrigation with just more labor? Or you
Speaker 1: know what, what are some of the consequences of going
Speaker 1: to naturalized areas as opposed to turf.
Speaker 2: Sometimes, you know, from my perspective, where the natural And
Speaker 2: you're right, I guess I should say that just to
Speaker 2: go naturalized does not mean that it's going to be
Speaker 2: a no maintenance area or that you're never going to
Speaker 2: have to touch it again. And that is something that's
Speaker 2: a common, you know, consideration we hear from superintendents, and
Speaker 2: I think I think some of the biggest challenges come
Speaker 2: when you go to a naturalized grass setting where you've
Speaker 2: got you know, you could have a really difficult situation
Speaker 2: for play where people are losing golf balls, it's hard
Speaker 2: to play out of there, and and it slows down
Speaker 2: play and and it's often difficult to control weeds in
Speaker 2: those situations because the you know, the chemistry or the
Speaker 2: the herbicides, the tools you want to control the weeds,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe aren't a good fit for the naturalized
Speaker 2: grass that you have there. And so it can be
Speaker 2: extremely it can it can be difficult, and you know,
Speaker 2: people are even doing things to try to slow down
Speaker 2: the native grasses and in the way that they grow
Speaker 2: to enhance playability. But then as you reduce kind of
Speaker 2: the the that natural grass that well, then then more
Speaker 2: weeds come in, and so then it's not esthetically pleasing,
Speaker 2: and so it's it's it's full of trade offs, and
Speaker 2: I think that that's why people just have to be
Speaker 2: really thoughtful about where these naturalized areas go and and
Speaker 2: what a what an area that you take out where
Speaker 2: you remove turf should be. And it's often not just
Speaker 2: let it grow up to whatever wants to grow there,
Speaker 2: because that's not going to be something that I don't
Speaker 2: think golfers will enjoy and it'll be a pain for
Speaker 2: superintendent to manage. So it does have to be, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of a thoughtful, systemic approach to decide what to
Speaker 2: do with naturalized areas.
Speaker 1: All right, So a lot of the issues that we've
Speaker 1: discussed today have to do with what golf course managers
Speaker 1: and golf course superintendents might consider for the future of
Speaker 1: their golf courses. But I mean, I think that a
Speaker 1: lot of the impetus for change in the golf course
Speaker 1: industry has to come from from players and from golfers,
Speaker 1: you know, looking at courses and asking questions about how
Speaker 1: they're maintained. And I'm not saying necessarily golfers need to
Speaker 1: be a pain in the butt to the gms and
Speaker 1: the superintendents at their courses. But what are some of
Speaker 1: the things that you think the everyday golfer can start
Speaker 1: noticing or start asking about golf courses as they relate
Speaker 1: to water conservation. What are just some kind of simple,
Speaker 1: sort of actionable items simple. I shouldn't have said simple,
Speaker 1: because nothing about this is simple, But I mean, so
Speaker 1: at least some understandable things that you know, say you
Speaker 1: have your home course, and most golfers are not really
Speaker 1: going to know are we conserving water? Are we using
Speaker 1: too much water? Or are we being as efficient as possible?
Speaker 1: And so what what can golfers do at their home
Speaker 1: courses to encourage more conservation?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a good question, and I think
Speaker 2: I think golfers can feel assured that whatever their situation,
Speaker 2: I would be pretty confident to say that their superintendent
Speaker 2: and their decision makers are delivering water in the most
Speaker 2: efficient way they can to produce the product or the
Speaker 2: conditions that golfers expect with the infrastructure that they have.
Speaker 2: And so the challenges with water conservation often come down
Speaker 2: to infrastructure, which we've spent along a lot of time
Speaker 2: I'm talking about today, and expectations. And so if superintendent's
Speaker 2: buy and large know how and where they can save water,
Speaker 2: they just need in some ways the freedom and resources
Speaker 2: to do so. And so I think it's fair for
Speaker 2: golfers to ask these questions. I think it's important for
Speaker 2: golfers to ask these questions. But I think they've also
Speaker 2: got to realize that, you know, the expectations of the
Speaker 2: clientele of the golfing body for a golf course determine
Speaker 2: how far a superintendent can go with, you know, letting
Speaker 2: things go a little brown and having variable expectations during
Speaker 2: a dry period. That could be a big way to
Speaker 2: save a lot of water. Is just you know, understanding
Speaker 2: that drought will happen during the summer sometimes and we
Speaker 2: might have some turf dormancy but you know, we're going
Speaker 2: to irrigate enough to make sure it doesn't die and
Speaker 2: it'll come back when it rains again or when we're
Speaker 2: no longer in a water shortage. And so these types
Speaker 2: of recalibrations and expectations I think are really important to
Speaker 2: the discussion around water conservation, and as important are the
Speaker 2: infrastructure questions you have to be able to. We're willing
Speaker 2: to invest and make sure that the golf course has
Speaker 2: what it needs in terms of irrigation and plant materials.
Speaker 2: You know, maybe it's time to regrass and get something
Speaker 2: that's more drought tolerant. Maybe it's time to take on
Speaker 2: a capital project and take some turf out of play,
Speaker 2: put in some new parts of an irrigation system, install
Speaker 2: some drip, and see what happens in terms of water conservation.
Speaker 2: So again, I think totally fair and important questions that
Speaker 2: golfers should be asking, But I think they've got to
Speaker 2: remember that at the end of the day, it comes
Speaker 2: down to what the golf course has for infrastructure and
Speaker 2: what the expectations are for that golf course.
Speaker 1: Now, from your perspective, as you're looking toward the future
Speaker 1: of the programs that you're helping run at the USGA.
Speaker 1: What are some areas of research related to water in
Speaker 1: golf that you're really excited about. What are the most
Speaker 1: potentially fruitful frontiers for advances that.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that question. That's a good one, because I
Speaker 2: think there's a lot to be excited about right now.
Speaker 2: We actually didn't talk about soil moisture meters, and you
Speaker 2: know how you know they can be used to even
Speaker 2: kind of that kind of they kind of provide that
Speaker 2: you know what your irrigation threshold is or what your
Speaker 2: drying threshold is, and that moisture meter is able to
Speaker 2: tell you that and tell you when it's dry, and
Speaker 2: it can tell you that quickly and in a site
Speaker 2: specific way, and so you can deliver water again only
Speaker 2: when where it's needed. And I think that those types
Speaker 2: of projects where we were were kind of showing people
Speaker 2: how to better use some of these existing technologies and
Speaker 2: what that means for water conservation and the bottom line
Speaker 2: for a golf course at the end of a year.
Speaker 2: I think I think those can be really beneficial and
Speaker 2: impactful for the industry. Apart from that, I mean, I
Speaker 2: think we still we're going to continue down the breeding
Speaker 2: realm of work and that workstream. The worst thing to
Speaker 2: do after you've improved any plant through breeding is to
Speaker 2: just stop, because you can keep getting a percent or
Speaker 2: two gains every year if you keep going. So twenty
Speaker 2: years from now, if we would have stopped, we would
Speaker 2: really probably regret that decision. And so I think you're
Speaker 2: going to continue to see us thinking about the long
Speaker 2: game and trying to do that type of work. And
Speaker 2: then I really want to learn from other sectors within
Speaker 2: the agriculture industry and use some of these innovative technologies
Speaker 2: and sensory based systems that we're not using in turf
Speaker 2: right now, and I think we can find ways to
Speaker 2: apply them to where it will be really scalable to
Speaker 2: quickly make irrigation decisions without having to install a bunch
Speaker 2: of you So I'm west your sensors in the ground,
Speaker 2: and so I think those are the types of projects
Speaker 2: that I'm most interested in and excited about. And really
Speaker 2: it comes down to just you know, managing as precisely
Speaker 2: as we can and being as informed as we can
Speaker 2: through data, and so we just want to find ways
Speaker 2: to enable that excellent.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, it sounds like there is a lot
Speaker 1: to be worried about, but there's also a good deal
Speaker 1: to be excited about on the research front. I appreciate
Speaker 1: you coming back on the podcast again, Cale, and I
Speaker 1: guess when Earth Day twenty twenty three comes around, we'll
Speaker 1: have you back again. Maybe maybe we'll figure out another
Speaker 1: domain of your research to investigate. But thanks so much
Speaker 1: for coming on today. Appreciate it. Sounds great.
Speaker 2: Kurt.
Speaker 1: Thanks. This episode of the Frida Egg Podcast was edited
Speaker 1: by Meg Atkins. If you'd like to keep up with
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