WEBVTT - How Golf Courses Can Conserve More Water 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.320 And when I find my ball. 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.319 In a brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday, 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.559 Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:13.680 to run off of the hump. 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.080 Hello, and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.800 is Garrett Morrison, and today is Earth Day. I can't 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.559 say I know exactly what people do on Earth Day, 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:47.120 but on the Frida Egg Podcast we like to talk 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:50.919 to doctor Cole Thompson about golf's relationship with the environment. 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.040 We had Cole on the podcast last year around this time, 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.480 and as you may or may not recall, he is 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.880 the Assistant Director of Green Section Research for the usg 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:05.640 and he helps direct the Turf, Grass and Environmental Research Program. Basically, 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:10.360 Cole works with scientists to identify research projects that might 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.720 be beneficial to golf courses and the people who run them. 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.560 He's a great resource for learning about what the golf 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:20.720 industry can do to contribute positively to the environment and 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.479 be more sustainable overall. Last year, Cole and I talked 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.240 about general environmental issues as they relate to golf, and 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.640 in this episode we're focusing on water conservation. Water might 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.800 be the single biggest problem that golf faces in the 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.040 twenty first century. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.400 say that we are in an era of climate change 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.520 and increasing drought conditions and golf course superintendents are going 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.120 to have to adjust how they can do. That is 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:51.000 a question that Cole thinks about all the time. So 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.240 let's get to it. Here is doctor Cole Thompson on 0:01:54.400 --> 0:02:03.440 water conservation in golf. Doctor Cole Thompson, Welcome back to 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:04.040 the podcast. 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:06.120 Thanks Gerret, happy to be back. 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.640 So when you were on last year at this time, 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.400 we touched on a broad range of environmental topics. We 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:17.400 kind of covered the full gamut of issues. For this 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.160 Earth Day, we figured we'd focus a little bit more 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:26.000 narrowly and talk about water conservation. And I don't think 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.280 it's actually a super narrow topic. There are a lot 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:32.200 of related issues. But just to get people started thinking 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:36.120 about this, what is the importance of the water issue 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:38.720 in golf right now? How would you characterize that? 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:41.560 Yeah, you know, it's a good question, and I think 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.440 it's important to focus on water use in golf. Golf 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:49.079 courses require water, you know, plants require water to grow, 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.679 and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.120 So it's important to be forward thinking about water. And 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:01.200 I think I think golf course superintendents and facilities are 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:03.679 very thoughtful in a way they use water today. But 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:05.880 I think we can I personally think we can always 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.120 do better. And so you know, there's only going to 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:12.840 be more competition for resources like water as our population 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.560 grows and we have to deliver that resource and the 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.679 other resources that require water to deliver their products to 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.320 our citizens, and so it's important as a society to 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.400 consider it. And so yeah, I think it's a really 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:27.040 important topic. 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.040 Just in the time that you've been working in the industry, 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:35.800 how has climate change affected the way that golf courses 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:36.920 are using water? 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.600 Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question, and it's always 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:45.720 hard to relate it directly to climate change, but you know, 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.280 in general, you know, we can all know and observe 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.440 that it's getting warmer, and even in my lifetime, it 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:56.240 seems like from my perspective, the the micro droughts that 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:58.840 we got in Kansas where I grew up are getting 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.480 more prevalent and longer. And then maybe when we get 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.400 the annual rainfall that you can count on, maybe it 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.080 comes more less frequently, it comes in larger volumes. And 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:13.360 so I think things like that have have become challenging 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.320 for people just just during my lifetime. As you said, 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:20.440 the growing seasons are getting are getting longer for more 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.080 northern climates, and so that means that you know, it 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.080 takes more water in a year to grow turf and 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:31.840 so and then just when it's hotter, that kind of provides, uh, 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.880 when it's warmer, you know, warm temperatures require or make 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:39.040 a turf use more water to actually complete their growth processes. 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:42.160 And so so all of these things point to, you know, 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.960 a climate where it takes a little bit more water 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:48.360 and also a situation where maybe you don't have it 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.400 as naturally readily available through precipitation as you may have 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:52.960 been used to. 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:58.240 And I think this dynamic creates an environment culturally where 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:02.400 golf can be in in a tough position just in 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:06.360 terms of public relations. I mean, in a time when 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.480 there's less water available and golf courses need more water, 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:17.480 golf courses seem more and more wasteful to the general public. So, 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.160 how would you describe the state of the public perception 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:23.440 of golf and water. 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.920 Yeah, that's the I mean you characterized it. Well, that's 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:31.840 the typical perception people tend to perceive. Golf course irrigation 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:36.920 is wasteful, and you know, I guess I can understand that. 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.520 If you don't understand the way that a golf course 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:44.000 functions or what the real numbers are, it's easy. It's 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:47.159 easy to just assume that the golf is just waste in. 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:48.239 Water, willy nilly. 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.240 But when you really like dial down and look at 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.200 the numbers, you get a different perspective. And so something 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:59.160 that I commonly get asked when I talk about water 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:03.159 with people. They've somewhere that golf courses need three hundred 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.840 thousand gallons of water a day or something like that, 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.400 and the question is, oh, is this right? And my answer, 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:15.240 if I'm thinking, well that day is it depends Because Yeah, 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.360 for some golf courses, that could be right around the 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:22.120 number that they might require per day. In the cooler, 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.120 rainier environments, it's probably more like thirty thousand gallons of 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.400 water a day. Okay, So that's a huge range. So 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.120 it's important to remember that and as we kind of 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.680 bubble that up to the next level. So I guess, 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.160 first of all, just taking those numbers, you know, when 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:41.080 the average United States citizen uses eighty gallons of water 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:44.200 a day or so, according to the US Geological Survey, 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:46.920 And it's probably difficult for most of us even to 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.800 fathom eighty gallons of water, Like we can think eighty 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.360 gallons of milk jugs, but I can't even think off 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.080 the top of my head how much space that would 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.440 take up in my office as I'm sitting here. So 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:58.880 even that level of water use is hard for people 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:02.440 to comprehend. And so when you start talking in the 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.720 order of hundreds of thousands of gallons of water a day, 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.360 I just don't think people can comprehend that, And so 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.080 it's important to keep perspective, and so I always like 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.400 to offer that, you know, I asked the question, do 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.360 you know how much water the US as a whole 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:19.720 withdraws from ground and surface water for different uses in 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.040 a year, and people usually don't, And it's about three 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.120 hundred twenty two billion gallons of water per day, which 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:29.600 is one hundred and seventeen trillion gallons a year. But 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:31.800 so if you take that water use rate and compare 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.600 it to golf. Golf is half of a percent of 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.840 total US water use, and so it does sound like 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:39.840 a lot of water when you're just told that, Hey, 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.000 a golf course in the Western United States uses three 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:43.560 hundred thousand gallons of water a day. 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:44.400 And I mean it is. 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.680 But if we get perspective, it's maybe it's maybe not 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.080 quite the narrative that people try to sell it as. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.680 So it's a proverbial drop in the bucket, is what 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:55.120 you're saying. 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:57.520 I should have just said that, yeah. 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:02.680 In any case. But all right. So this is the 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.240 case with a lot of environmental issues where convenient targets 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:11.880 can be selected for, you know, to be characterized as wasteful. 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.600 And when it comes to water usage, looking at a 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.000 green golf course in the middle of a city or 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.400 in the middle of a desert can be something to 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.320 point to and say, you know, what are we doing here? 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:27.600 Why are we using water to keep that place green. Now, 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:31.880 when it comes to golf courses in environments that are 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:36.640 typically hostile to turf, like desert golf courses, I find 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:40.959 myself having a bit of a hard time justifying that 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.880 water usage and so I wonder what your reaction is 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:49.319 to somebody kind of making distinctions between golf courses in 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:54.520 environments where turf grass might more naturally and more easily occur, 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:59.280 and golf courses in environments where maintaining that turf grass 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:03.199 is very like presumably it is in the desert. Do 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:05.800 you think that is a useful distinction for people to 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.360 make or are there other issues that we should be 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:10.040 considering here. 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:14.000 So I absolutely think that's valid. I always think it's 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:17.440 important to try to put yourself in the local environment 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.719 where that problem is most prevalent, and so you know, 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.319 you're right in one part. In some parts of the country, 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:27.959 it takes a little less supplemental irrigation or a lot 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.240 less to provide a golf course, and as you said, 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:35.319 in the deserts, it takes more water. And so in 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:40.319 those situations, it's important for me to remember that it's 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.959 that's kind of a local decision, and what are the 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:47.360 trade offs and policies and other potential uses for water 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.520 in that environment. If the people say it's a public 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.079 golf course, and the people want a golf course or 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:56.840 that public green space, then you know, I think it's 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.800 up to them to decide if that's a valid use 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:04.160 of water of that resource, you know, for their community, 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.920 and compare that to the other potential uses for the water. 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:12.520 I do think, especially in you know, the more arid, 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.800 warm lands or environments for for a golf course, it's 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.880 important to right away make sure that we have a 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.920 logistical golf course, right that we're that we're minimizing the 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:27.480 irrigation as much as possible, We're growing as little turf 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:29.800 as possible, just to make sure that we're being really 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.800 thoughtful about, you know, only using as much as we're 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.440 using as little water is required to provide the playing 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.400 conditions of people want in that area, all right. 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:42.560 So just to set the table for how golf courses 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:47.640 currently irrigate and how they might change some of those practices, 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.400 I think it would be useful to talk a bit 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.040 about the history of golf course irrigation. I know this 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:58.800 is not necessarily your area of specialty, but just broad strokes, 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:03.199 how has golf course irrigation changed from the beginning of 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.120 the game to the present. I presume when golf began 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:10.079 on the links Land that there wasn't really formal irrigation 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.599 going on there. There was some turf grass management. We 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.839 know that old Tom Morris was very involved in kind 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:20.800 of innovating that area. But can you give a general 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.439 sense for how irrigation on golf courses developed from that 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:28.439 point of like basically no irrigation to what we have today. 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.400 Yeah, yeah, I'll give it a shot here. And so, 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.360 I mean from from I think that probably the earliest 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:38.360 forms of irrigation where you know, horse charm, mule drawn carriages, 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.719 wagons full of water, you know, with the hose or 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.920 some other method of distribution where you're taking a wagon 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.320 a water around the golf course and probably only watering 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.000 the greens early on, and things like that. And then 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:55.280 irrigation innovation has been pretty impressive and it's changed golf. 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:58.160 They've kind of evolved together in the in the United 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.880 States and in the world really. But so after the 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.000 horse drawn carriages, you know, you start to get the 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.280 first sprinklers, you know at some point, and some buried 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:11.000 pipe on the property with quick couplings that are underground. 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.040 And so then instead of drawing or dragging a wagon 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.320 of water around the property and watering it with a hose, 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.240 you know, now you're taking a mobile sprinkler around and 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.000 plugging it into a quick coupler and you know, maybe 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.400 that's just teasing greens at first. Eventually there's a row 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.400 of pipe and couplers down the fairway so you can 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:30.679 water different parts of the fairway as time goes on. 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.480 And it was really, I think, you know, not until 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.720 the nineteen thirties or so, when the pop up sprinkler 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.400 that we're familiar with today was actually a reality where 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:42.880 it's buried in the ground and is hooked to pipe 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.400 and it pops up and can deliver water on demand 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.920 and automatically. That was another big innovation to kind of 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:53.079 the electronic and hydraulic controllers that allow you to control 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.800 the irrigation system from you know, areas besides where that 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:01.480 specific irrigation head is. And then you know, after World 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.199 War Two, you know, I think is when those kind 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:10.240 of fully underground automated irrigation systems were becoming common. But 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.760 it wasn't. It still wasn't until the you know, sixties 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.240 or seventies until we really started replacing a lot of 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.360 these quick coupler based systems with irrigation systems that were 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:23.080 you know, automated and buried underground. And then even at 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:25.720 that point, you know, there's there's been different stages where 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:29.040 you know, you might have one or two heads around 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:32.160 a tee and you probably have the green pretty well covered, 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.920 but then it's maybe just a single row of irrigation heads. 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.280 That was kind of you know, whenever I think about it, 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.680 that's the oldest kind of irrigation system when it's fully 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.080 automated and you have the sprinklers and everything. And then 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.600 at some point we get two rows of irrigation heads 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.160 in the fairways, and then you know, maybe the fairway 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.760 gets bigger, maybe there's three rows of heads, and then 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:54.680 you start to get the heads shown up in roughs 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.319 and you see multiple heads show up around greens, so 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:01.240 you can irrigate the greens and the surrounds differently. And 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:05.160 so the irrigate, the precision of irrigation has definitely grown, 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.080 and the footprint that we're able to irrigate on demand 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:11.280 has grown with time. And so you can see where 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.920 that probably begets more water use, but you know, you 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:16.679 can also take a step back and see where that 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.560 allows some efficiency where just because the heads are there 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:21.080 doesn't mean you have to use them all the time. 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.360 So, just talking about the present day, what are some 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.600 of the reasons that golf courses might want to consider 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:32.280 changing their irrigation practices. 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.600 So, one of the biggest challenges with irrigation is delivering 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:38.400 the water where you want it, when you want it. 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.200 And you could have had a top of the line 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.960 system twenty years ago, and it's it's base level. It's 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.720 not going to compare to the you know, the uniformity 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.600 of the systems that are out today, and especially how 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.280 it's you know, it's it's going to be less efficient 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:57.680 just by virtue of time, right, and components wear out 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.480 and you know, maybe some deferred maintenance. And so when 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:03.640 the goal is to deliver water where you want it, 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.720 you want your tool, you want that arrow in the 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.800 quiver to be to be efficient and provide the water 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:11.480 where you want it, when you want it, and so 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:15.480 that that can be a big challenge. And so it's 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:20.080 the other component here is that playing conditions are better 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.720 when it's drier. Right. In my opinion, nobody it's not 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.080 really a lot of fun to be around on a 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:29.040 wet golf course. And so I think that it's important 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.800 to remember that that conserving water just kind of meshes 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:37.160 well with fun golf and so even if your motivation 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.200 wasn't to conserve water, getting water where you want it, 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.520 and only providing that amount to get your playing conditions, 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.160 it's going to be easier if your irrigation system is 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.640 well maintained and up to date. And so, you know, again, 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.080 I think it's important to remember that. I think superintendents 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.440 are already very thoughtful about the way that they irrigate, 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.040 and you know as and so I think we can 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:02.880 be assured of that. And then just remember that, like 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:05.440 we mentioned earlier, there's only going to be increasing demands 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.040 for water in the future. And so if we already 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.080 need to make some investments in the golf course and 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.320 in the irrigation system to be able to deliver the 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.360 water where we need it more efficiently, you know that 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.600 needs only going to increase with time. So I think 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.040 it's a good time to start making the case if 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.800 we need to make investments to improve irrigation efficiency. 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.760 So you sent me a few well established ways that 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:34.720 golf courses can conserve more water and distribute water more efficiently, 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.080 and maybe we could just talk about each in turn. 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.000 I don't understand every bullet point on this list, so 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.240 I'm curious to kind of find out exactly what this 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.800 would involve. And you know, I think this is a 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.440 great thing for golfers because irrigation can be a bit 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.000 of a mystery, and so I'm going to learn a 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.840 lot in just figuring out what are the ways that 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:02.000 an irrigation scheme can be improved and can be rendered 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.080 more efficient. This is just something that golf course golfers 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.520 rarely think about, but maybe should be thinking about in 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:12.160 this era. So why don't we start with why don't 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.639 we start with precision irrigation. We've talked about that a 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.359 little bit, but what are some of the ways that 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.960 irrigation can be made more precise? And maybe you could 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.359 just start by talking about what does it mean for 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:28.400 irrigation to be more precise? 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:31.560 Yeah, and so there's there's two components here, and one 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:33.280 that we already touched on a little bit, and that's 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:35.840 just delivering the water where and how you want it. 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:40.399 And so years ago, the sprinklers or irrigation heads that 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:44.840 golfers will see were only able to be controlled on 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.720 a block. You know, you would turn on four or 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.800 eight heads at a time, something like that, And so 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:55.880 you're already losing resolution in terms of the hydrologic zone 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:57.640 that might be present in a fair way, that could 0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.200 be on a slope in the wet or end of 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.960 that slope. The lower end of that slope doesn't need 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:03.840 the heads to come on, but the higher end you 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:05.479 know they might, but you turn them on all at 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.000 the same time. So that's a lack of precision. So 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:12.159 a big innovation was the valve in head control system, 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.960 and that just means that you can control an individual head. 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.720 You can turn on this sprinkler head without turning on 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:22.600 all the others, and so that's that's a level of precision. 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.280 Golf course superintendents commonly take it even further. If you 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.439 ever see your superintendent or their staff out hand watering 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.960 putting greens, this is an exercise and irrigation precision because 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.119 they irrigate the green to a certain level with the 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:40.840 overhead irrigation system the sprinklers. That is, to provide you know, 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:42.840 just enough water to make sure they're going to get 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:45.680 by for the day. Usually greens might be irrigated daily 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.760 in the summer in certain instances to make sure they're 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.240 not too wet, and then but as you start to 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:53.680 get dry spots, especially in the heat of the day. 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.960 That's when you see the crew out there with hose 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.560 spot watering, and again that's just that's just a it's 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:04.120 a it's a lowjack, but it's very, very definitely intended 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.320 to be precision irrigation so that you're not overwatering a whole, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.879 over overwatering the green. And so again, this is stuff 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.320 like this I think people overlook when we talk about 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.840 precision irrigation. It's fun to talk about the technology and 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.800 the new things that are out there, but you know, 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.200 precision precision management has been in the DNA of golf 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:25.480 course superintendents for a long time. For a long time, 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.159 they've been treating greens a little bit differently because they 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:30.439 know this one's in the shade and this one's south facing, 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:33.280 and so that's really what it means is treating each 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.480 area the way that it needs to be treated, given 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:37.560 given its local conditions. 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.720 This episode of the Friday Podcast is brought to you 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:47.280 by Club Champion. 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Let's talk about efficient water delivery, and there 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:09.879 are two parts of this that you've identified. One is 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:16.000 irrigation system's maintenance. So you know keeping the irrigation systems themselves, 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.240 I guess up to date and you know, making sure 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:21.879 that they've been repaired and things like that. And then 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:25.240 the second part of that is subsurface drip irrigation, which 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:28.159 is again something that I don't know about, and so 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:30.960 we'll find out about that. But let's start with the 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:35.480 importance of maintaining irrigation systems and how that helps with 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:38.480 efficient water delivery. And I guess when you say efficient 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:42.160 water delivery, you mean just like we're not wasting water 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:44.560 in the process of getting it to where it needs 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:47.399 to go on the golf course. Yeah, that's right. 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:49.520 And so you can imagine a scenario where if a 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:55.000 irrigation system is poorly adjusted, you will overwater certain areas 0:21:55.280 --> 0:22:00.240 and underwater others. And you can see this well, will 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:02.000 may be able to see this if they see like 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:05.320 an arc, a perfect arc or circle in a turf, 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:08.200 and that's indicating that, you know, maybe the pressure is 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:11.200 low or something where you're not getting what we aim 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:13.800 for right now, which is head to head coverage, where 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:17.440 that that sprinkler will throw water from its location to 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:21.240 the next head and the other adjacent irrigation head or 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.280 sprinkler is doing the same thing, and those together are 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.760 providing the precipitation rate that you're after. Right, That's how 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:30.479 we talk about irrigation two is precipitation rate, because that's 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:33.760 what we're out of or that's what we're trying to replace, 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:37.920 and so so that that delivers a precipitation rate you're after. 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.080 If one head is not throwing far enough for whatever reason, 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:44.359 then the precipitation rate is going to be light. And 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:46.479 so you can you can start to see that if 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:48.720 you see this kind of circular area and you just 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:51.399 know that, you know, for whatever reason, the irrigation system 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:55.600 is not adjusted well and the uniformity of the water 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:59.119 delivery is is just not where it needs to be. 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.439 And that can be solved by, you know, often by 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:07.000 just addressing the mechanism that delivers the water, making sure 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:08.080 it's repaired, et cetera. 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:11.159 Yeah, I mean, so irrigation heads, you know, themselves, can 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:13.680 go bad. It can be a pressure situation where there's 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:15.960 not enough pressure to the head and that can that 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:18.200 can be poor design or routing of the pipe. That 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:20.520 can be a problem with the pump that's delivering the 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:23.879 water to the system. It can be nozzles that are 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:25.960 bad in the heads that are that are just not 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.240 throwing the water the way they that the design intended. 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:32.520 It can it can be a list of things. It 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:35.040 can also be a very simple thing like having a 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.200 level sprinkler head. A sprinkler head needs to be level 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:40.600 with the ground to make sure that it's and also 0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:43.560 not low and set below the surface. So if you've 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.160 ever seen a sprinkler head, you know, hitting a tree 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:48.680 or a bush or the ground or tall grass and 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:50.960 not throwing water the way it's intended to, that that's 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:52.480 affecting the delivery of water. 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:58.240 Yeah, welcome to my lawn outside, just like yeah, the 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:00.399 irrigation heads are all over the place, all right. So 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:05.480 subsurface drip irrigation is part of this question of efficient 0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:10.280 water delivery. What is subsurface drip irrigation? Is it a 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:13.000 new thing? And is it something that not many golf 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:13.520 courses have? 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:17.919 So it is not a new thing in relative terms, 0:24:18.800 --> 0:24:20.880 but it's also not something that a lot of golf 0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:25.440 courses use. There are some that have it in different locations. 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:29.240 You might see it on bunker faces or things like 0:24:29.320 --> 0:24:33.760 that that are hard or difficult to water with sprinklers. 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:37.320 But basically, what where you would most commonly see it, 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:39.800 and I should correct myself. I bet a lot of 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:42.760 golf courses do have it in landscaping beds because that's 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:45.120 where that's where we see a lot of drip irrigation. 0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:49.480 Even in residential settings, it's very common, and it's it's 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:51.359 just this buried pipe, or it might be in the 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:53.800 mulch of a planning bed and it has emitters or 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:56.200 holes cut in the pipe, or there's a style of 0:24:56.240 --> 0:24:58.520 pipe that just kind of seeps where it's designed to 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:02.040 kind of akin to a soaker hose if you ever 0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:04.359 have to water your foundation, depending on where you live 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:07.080 in the country, and it's just putting water out at 0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:09.560 at at a rate that you want, and it's the 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:13.360 water ideally is is not being exposed to the air. 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:17.000 It's it's it's just being emitted into the soil and 0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:21.320 then it passes through the soil by capillary flow. You know, 0:25:21.760 --> 0:25:24.879 water just flows from high to low concentration and you 0:25:25.359 --> 0:25:27.600 you you deliver the water to the root zone without 0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:29.840 ever having to throw it in the air. And so 0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:33.560 it's again it's traditionally been used in landscaping beds. It's 0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:36.280 we see it more and more in turf. It's it's 0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:39.280 I've seen it in you know kind of the turf islands. 0:25:39.359 --> 0:25:42.159 We call them into suite in between a sidewalk and 0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:45.560 a curb where there's really no use for a sprinkler, 0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:49.359 the drip can be used there. And we've even funded 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:52.440 some projects in recent years where people are experimenting with 0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:56.119 it on isolated tea boxes and saving a tremendous amount 0:25:56.160 --> 0:26:00.480 of water twofold because they're not again watering the surround 0:26:00.520 --> 0:26:04.159 of the tea, they're only watering the tea. And because 0:26:04.200 --> 0:26:07.800 of the efficiency of not losing water to evaporation and 0:26:07.960 --> 0:26:11.040 just the really efficient delivery of the water. I mean, 0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:14.600 you can save up to eighty percent of water compared 0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:18.720 to sprinkler irrigation if you get that subsurface drip system 0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:22.200 tuned the right way. And so it's not without challenges. 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:25.040 I mean in turf we also air eate, We punch 0:26:25.119 --> 0:26:27.480 holes in the ground, and we top dress, and we 0:26:27.560 --> 0:26:31.359 do all these things that could potentially damage this drip line. 0:26:32.359 --> 0:26:34.399 And if you were going to irrigate a fairway, you 0:26:34.440 --> 0:26:36.840 would have to lay a lot of drip line because 0:26:36.840 --> 0:26:38.879 it's got to be you know, eight or so inches 0:26:38.920 --> 0:26:41.960 apart and just a few inches deep. And so it's 0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:45.800 not without challenges, but the efficiency is so great that 0:26:45.880 --> 0:26:48.240 I think we can overcome some of those challenges to 0:26:48.880 --> 0:26:51.080 use this as a as a more and more as 0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:52.880 a tool for water conservation and golf. 0:26:53.720 --> 0:26:56.560 So my understanding of what you're saying is that the 0:26:56.800 --> 0:26:59.960 kind of traditional model of irrigating golf courses has depends 0:27:00.119 --> 0:27:02.880 did on these sprinkler heads that throw water into the air, 0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:06.119 and of course some of the water goes away and 0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:10.680 before it hits the turf, whereas subsurface drip irrigation it's 0:27:10.880 --> 0:27:14.119 it's almost like direct injection, like it it gets it, 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:18.399 it's right into where it needs to be. But subsurface 0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:22.320 drip irrigation, if I understand correctly, has traditionally not been 0:27:22.440 --> 0:27:27.360 used extensively with turf. Now would subsurface drip irrigation work 0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:31.639 best and kind of these sort of specialized applications as 0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:34.720 opposed to general coverage, what it work best in places 0:27:34.800 --> 0:27:36.840 like teeing areas and things like that. 0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:38.960 I think that's a lot. So first of all, you 0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:41.919 thank you for explaining that better than me. That's exactly 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:45.600 what drip irrigation is. And and yes, I think the 0:27:45.720 --> 0:27:49.199 first kind of good target for using drip irrigation are 0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:53.320 you know, bunker faces, Tea's things like that. But I 0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:55.640 think we can go beyond that. I think I think 0:27:55.680 --> 0:27:58.160 we just have to take the step to especially where 0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:02.639 water is really precious and limiting in some geographies, you know, 0:28:02.720 --> 0:28:05.040 I think it's I think it's time to to to 0:28:05.119 --> 0:28:07.680 give it a try and and and use it a 0:28:07.720 --> 0:28:11.119 little more broadly for more broad coverage that part of 0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:14.200 the catches you you probably still need overhead irrigation. You 0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:18.040 probably still need sprinklers so you can water, infertilizer or 0:28:18.119 --> 0:28:20.520 other for other uses, or if you have to seed. 0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:24.320 I think you can't. You can establish grass with drip irrigation, 0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:27.120 but it's you know, there are still times. I guess 0:28:27.160 --> 0:28:28.520 what I'm trying to say is where you might want 0:28:28.560 --> 0:28:31.359 that irrigation head, so you might end up having both. 0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:33.280 This might just be an add on to an existing 0:28:33.320 --> 0:28:36.760 irrigation system, but it could could really increase efficiency and 0:28:37.000 --> 0:28:39.280 I think the people that are using it now for 0:28:39.520 --> 0:28:42.840 turf irrigation on a golf course would really be considered innovative. Again, 0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:44.600 I don't want to give the message that it's not 0:28:44.720 --> 0:28:47.360 out there. People are using it, but it's it's definitely 0:28:47.520 --> 0:28:49.920 one of the lesser used things that that has been 0:28:50.040 --> 0:28:50.840 known for a while. 0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:55.760 All Right. So the remaining ways that courses can can 0:28:55.800 --> 0:28:59.640 serve more water that you sent me are things that 0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:02.920 I am a bit more familiar with than the kind 0:29:02.920 --> 0:29:07.600 of irrigation system fundamentals that that we've been talking about 0:29:07.720 --> 0:29:11.080 so far. These the rest of these things are things 0:29:11.120 --> 0:29:16.840 that golfers will actually see. One is efficient water storage. 0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:20.360 This won't necessarily be a playing element on a golf course, 0:29:20.880 --> 0:29:26.560 but what you mean by this is capturing more water 0:29:26.880 --> 0:29:30.960 and you know, you know, building some infrastructure on the 0:29:31.040 --> 0:29:34.680 golf course so that you know, water that comes down naturally, 0:29:35.440 --> 0:29:38.400 can you know, sort of efficiently go to another place 0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:40.880 on the golf course, you know, like a basin or 0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:44.239 a pond or something like that, so that it can 0:29:44.360 --> 0:29:48.040 be captured there and it doesn't just go to waste. 0:29:48.480 --> 0:29:51.640 So can you talk about how golf courses can more 0:29:51.760 --> 0:29:57.520 efficiently store water and then more efficiently divert water as well, 0:29:57.800 --> 0:30:00.880 and how this can help courses concern or more water. 0:30:01.880 --> 0:30:04.040 Yeah, So I don't think I have much to add 0:30:04.120 --> 0:30:06.320 on the on the on the storage component. I think 0:30:06.360 --> 0:30:08.800 you characterize that well where you know, it's just it's 0:30:08.840 --> 0:30:11.320 just capturing what we can from natural precipitation so that 0:30:11.400 --> 0:30:14.240 we can use it for irrigation. And essentially you're creating 0:30:14.280 --> 0:30:16.800 a surface water that you're going to use to irrigate 0:30:16.840 --> 0:30:19.640 the golf course. And and this is pretty common. And 0:30:20.000 --> 0:30:22.920 if you have this setup, you know, it's common for 0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:25.120 a golf course maybe to be able to supplement that 0:30:25.560 --> 0:30:28.720 that irrigation pond with municipal water if they need to, 0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:31.320 but many most of the time they may not need 0:30:31.400 --> 0:30:33.800 to do that. So I don't think I need to 0:30:33.840 --> 0:30:36.920 try to add anything there the diversion component, you know, 0:30:37.080 --> 0:30:39.600 for me, as always, we're just diverting the use of 0:30:40.040 --> 0:30:43.080 what would have been potable water. And this has been 0:30:43.840 --> 0:30:46.600 about fifteen percent of golf courses, is our best estimate 0:30:46.720 --> 0:30:51.160 right now, use affluent water or recycled waste water for irrigation. 0:30:51.920 --> 0:30:54.560 And it's just you know, it's it's pretty salty water, 0:30:54.720 --> 0:30:58.080 but it's it's water that has been treated and so 0:30:58.240 --> 0:31:01.040 it's it's appropriate for you use for irrigation. And it 0:31:01.200 --> 0:31:04.040 just reduces the strain on the potable water supply. 0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:08.160 And this might factor into something that we talked about 0:31:08.560 --> 0:31:10.600 last year when you were on the podcast which is 0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:16.480 ecosystem services that golf courses can provide. And I think 0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:23.320 that water storage, water diversion can contribute to these services 0:31:23.400 --> 0:31:26.920 that a golf course might provide the surrounding community, especially 0:31:27.040 --> 0:31:29.280 water storage. Could you talk about how water storage might 0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:33.680 actually be important for the area surrounding a golf course. 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:36.480 Yeah, that's a good point. And so especially during a 0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:38.800 storm event where you've got you've got a lot of 0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:42.080 water and it's going to go somewhere and maybe flood 0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:45.520 the community and flood some infrastructure. Golf courses are these 0:31:45.600 --> 0:31:50.000 green spaces that are you know, they're poorous that the 0:31:50.200 --> 0:31:53.160 water can infiltrate the soil, and so they can serve 0:31:53.200 --> 0:31:57.760 as kind of detention basins to to divert storm water from, 0:31:58.080 --> 0:32:01.120 you know, infrastructure that might have otherwise flood. And we've 0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:04.600 been supporting some scientists that have been estimating the potential 0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:06.880 for golf courses to do that, and it is pretty 0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:11.600 interesting to see, especially in certain locations, how a golf 0:32:11.680 --> 0:32:14.360 course can provide that service to a community and help 0:32:14.400 --> 0:32:15.200 prevent some flooding. 0:32:15.880 --> 0:32:21.440 Let's talk about drought tolerant grasses. These I mean, I 0:32:21.480 --> 0:32:23.480 don't know if I'm right or wrong about this, but 0:32:23.880 --> 0:32:26.480 I feel like I've been hearing more and more about 0:32:27.080 --> 0:32:32.160 drought tolerant strains of turf lately than I had at 0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:35.960 any time before. I know, these are becoming It's a 0:32:36.080 --> 0:32:40.080 huge topic among golf courses in California and other places 0:32:40.160 --> 0:32:43.479 that are struggling with drought right now. So what are 0:32:43.520 --> 0:32:48.120 some of the latest developments on the drought tolerant grass front. 0:32:48.800 --> 0:32:50.640 You know, this is kind of part of the long 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:55.080 game of improving drought tolerance and the water footprint of golf. 0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:57.840 When you know, there were a series of droughts in 0:32:57.880 --> 0:33:00.440 the seventies and eighties that really kind of led to 0:33:00.560 --> 0:33:03.520 the creation of the research program that I manage, and 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:05.880 it was all one of the main initiatives was to 0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:10.880 develop grasses that were more drought tolerant. And you know, 0:33:11.000 --> 0:33:14.120 fortunately for people in the Southern United States, these grasses 0:33:14.240 --> 0:33:17.720 have more or less kind of existed there for a while. 0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:21.040 It's the Bermuda grasses of the world that I mentioned 0:33:21.080 --> 0:33:23.640 earlier that are just to have lower water use rates, 0:33:24.000 --> 0:33:27.680 but they've been continuously improved to have through breeding programs 0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:32.960 at universities and private companies to have better turf traits, 0:33:33.080 --> 0:33:35.840 you know, to grow more compactly to be you know, 0:33:35.960 --> 0:33:39.440 fine textured and dense and provide the golf conditioning that 0:33:39.520 --> 0:33:43.760 we want. And then you mentioned California. That's another area that, 0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:47.360 especially along the coast, traditionally has been more cool season grasses. 0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:51.600 That the temperatures in that climate really favor cool season grasses, 0:33:51.720 --> 0:33:55.600 but the arid nature of the climate favors warm season 0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:58.040 grasses more. We would like to see water use efficiency 0:33:58.120 --> 0:34:00.680 and we're seeing lots of in the last few years, 0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:06.920 you know, lots of regrassing programs in in California and 0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:09.600 in the transition zone to where people are making the 0:34:09.719 --> 0:34:12.200 change from cool season grasses. And you know, I think 0:34:12.360 --> 0:34:14.600 off the top, you can be pretty comfortable that a 0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:16.800 golf course is going to save about twenty five percent 0:34:17.320 --> 0:34:22.160 in water just from making that transition, and it could 0:34:22.239 --> 0:34:25.400 be more, and then they could have other you know, 0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:29.200 economic savings because these grasses tend to also you know, 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:31.880 require a little less fertilizer, they have fewer pests, and 0:34:32.000 --> 0:34:35.239 so it's a compounding factor where it can be a 0:34:35.320 --> 0:34:37.960 good a good investment in many ways, even if the 0:34:38.040 --> 0:34:42.360 original plan was just to reduce water use in some 0:34:42.520 --> 0:34:46.080 way and so that's where the developments have primarily been 0:34:46.160 --> 0:34:48.040 are trying to get these warm season grasses so they 0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:50.680 can be used more locations. But I think we can 0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:53.760 you know, there's also been developments in cool season grasses 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:56.280 for the northern United States because you know, we started 0:34:56.280 --> 0:34:58.680 talking about climate change and the fact that you know, 0:34:59.200 --> 0:35:01.640 the more northern parts of the United States are getting warmer, 0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:05.400 and so that's probably also helping with the adaptation of 0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:08.520 some of these grasses that are typically more southern grasses. 0:35:09.040 --> 0:35:12.279 But you know, I think we can really focus a 0:35:12.320 --> 0:35:15.200 little bit more on drought tolerance and salinity tolerance and 0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:17.400 things like that, and cool season grasses as well, and 0:35:17.920 --> 0:35:20.920 probably make some gains to help the areas where currently 0:35:20.960 --> 0:35:23.520 the warm season grasses are not well adapted. And so 0:35:23.640 --> 0:35:25.839 that's that's definitely still a frontier and something we need 0:35:25.880 --> 0:35:26.320 to work. 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:32.240 On all right now. Overall, reducing the amount of irrigated plants, 0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:37.439 both turf and non turf. That is the other big 0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:41.480 front in trying to conserve water. So we've talked so 0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:45.840 far about you know, just making irrigation systems more precise 0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:51.000 and more efficient, capturing water, diverting water in efficient ways. 0:35:51.560 --> 0:35:55.960 We've talked about drought tolerant grasses. That's that's a big frontier. 0:35:57.520 --> 0:36:00.319 Reducing the amount of irrigated plants on a golf course 0:36:00.560 --> 0:36:03.400 is in many ways a design question, and so it 0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:06.040 excites me a little bit. You know, this podcast is 0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:08.640 very much about golf course architecture and golf course design 0:36:08.640 --> 0:36:12.440 a lot of the times. And so when courses are 0:36:12.520 --> 0:36:16.319 looking to reduce the amount of stuff that they're irrigating, 0:36:17.280 --> 0:36:20.560 how do they typically go about that and what are 0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:23.480 some of the big questions that they need to ask? 0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:26.800 Yeah, and so I think you're right, it is a 0:36:26.880 --> 0:36:30.440 design question, and it comes down to what's you know, 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:33.920 what is a what is a golf course? And kind 0:36:33.920 --> 0:36:37.759 of philosophically, and if we look at you know, the 0:36:37.880 --> 0:36:40.240 numbers right now for land use on a golf course, 0:36:40.520 --> 0:36:42.279 a golf course is one hundred and fifty or some 0:36:42.440 --> 0:36:45.399 acres and eighty to ninety of that is maintained turf. 0:36:46.840 --> 0:36:49.920 But that's it's on the decline, and I think, you know, 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:52.560 this is where we'll probably see more of that. And 0:36:52.680 --> 0:36:56.160 so I think the consideration to your design point is, 0:36:56.760 --> 0:36:58.840 you know, where are the playing corridors, where are the 0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:02.400 golfers going? Where you need turf to to have the 0:37:02.840 --> 0:37:05.320 routing that's desired, and how do you want people to 0:37:05.320 --> 0:37:06.600 play that course? And where do you where do you 0:37:06.719 --> 0:37:08.520 not need the turf? And where can where can you 0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:12.640 save And because we know that with taking turf out 0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:16.400 of the out of play and naturalizing it and in 0:37:16.560 --> 0:37:19.600 some way, you know, saves water and saves other resources 0:37:19.640 --> 0:37:21.520 and saves emissions because you're not gonna have to mow 0:37:21.560 --> 0:37:24.080 as much, and so it's it can be a benefit 0:37:24.160 --> 0:37:27.759 all around. I added other plants in there because you know, 0:37:27.840 --> 0:37:29.640 people I think sometimes think we're just going to turn 0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:32.120 off the sprinklers and and there you go. We've taken 0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:34.919 turf out of play. And in most cases that's that's 0:37:35.000 --> 0:37:38.440 not going to be a desirable situation. There's going to 0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:41.959 be some type of redesign, regrading, re establishment of the area. 0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:45.080 Even in the West, it's often some zero component where 0:37:45.120 --> 0:37:49.040 there's you know, some dg some some zero plants, rocks, 0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:51.160 other things like that, and and you need to install 0:37:51.200 --> 0:37:54.160 irrigation for those plants as well. They're probably not going 0:37:54.280 --> 0:37:57.560 to thrive without a little bit of that drip irrigation 0:37:57.680 --> 0:38:00.719 we talked about earlier. So there's an investment there as well, 0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:06.080 and plant material and infegation in irrigation infrastructure. So I 0:38:06.120 --> 0:38:07.880 guess it's just important to remember that that if you 0:38:07.960 --> 0:38:10.920 whatever you replace, you might still be using water unless 0:38:10.920 --> 0:38:14.680 you just go completely to a non vegetated landscape or 0:38:14.840 --> 0:38:18.120 or something that you're expecting to turn over and recover, 0:38:18.760 --> 0:38:20.320 you know, in the wet parts of the year and 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:22.160 just go away in the dry parts of the year. 0:38:22.160 --> 0:38:24.080 And there's some opportunities to do that. Some of the 0:38:24.440 --> 0:38:26.680 some of the desert grasses and things like that can 0:38:27.120 --> 0:38:29.840 can really tolerate an extended period of drought and then 0:38:29.880 --> 0:38:33.200 they recover very well when it rains for the for 0:38:33.320 --> 0:38:36.560 the amount of traffic and and the you know, esthetic 0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:40.239 that they're providing. So it's it's it's a nuanced question, 0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:42.719 but that that's where I come from on taking turf 0:38:42.760 --> 0:38:44.800 out of play and considering what that actually means for 0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:45.479 the golf course. 0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:49.040 Yeah, some of what you're saying about, you know, what 0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:53.160 might replace turf for what might remain after you take 0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:57.960 out turf gets at a problem that superintendents have often 0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:01.200 brought up with me when I start talking about the 0:39:01.280 --> 0:39:05.720 wonders of naturalized areas, and often the reaction of superintendents 0:39:05.800 --> 0:39:08.680 is man, you don't know how much work it takes 0:39:09.280 --> 0:39:14.440 to maintain these supposedly naturalized areas, and so what are 0:39:14.480 --> 0:39:18.520 some of the challenges there and how can golf courses 0:39:18.800 --> 0:39:22.160 address them? And you know, will it just take more labor? 0:39:22.920 --> 0:39:27.600 Are we replacing irrigation with just more labor? Or you 0:39:27.680 --> 0:39:30.160 know what, what are some of the consequences of going 0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:33.160 to naturalized areas as opposed to turf. 0:39:33.840 --> 0:39:36.800 Sometimes, you know, from my perspective, where the natural And 0:39:37.040 --> 0:39:39.200 you're right, I guess I should say that just to 0:39:39.320 --> 0:39:41.759 go naturalized does not mean that it's going to be 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:44.000 a no maintenance area or that you're never going to 0:39:44.040 --> 0:39:46.160 have to touch it again. And that is something that's 0:39:46.200 --> 0:39:49.440 a common, you know, consideration we hear from superintendents, and 0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:52.120 I think I think some of the biggest challenges come 0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:55.359 when you go to a naturalized grass setting where you've 0:39:55.400 --> 0:39:59.360 got you know, you could have a really difficult situation 0:39:59.520 --> 0:40:03.120 for play where people are losing golf balls, it's hard 0:40:03.200 --> 0:40:05.200 to play out of there, and and it slows down 0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:07.880 play and and it's often difficult to control weeds in 0:40:07.960 --> 0:40:11.719 those situations because the you know, the chemistry or the 0:40:11.880 --> 0:40:14.640 the herbicides, the tools you want to control the weeds, 0:40:14.960 --> 0:40:17.920 you know, maybe aren't a good fit for the naturalized 0:40:17.960 --> 0:40:19.960 grass that you have there. And so it can be 0:40:20.120 --> 0:40:24.160 extremely it can it can be difficult, and you know, 0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:26.399 people are even doing things to try to slow down 0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:29.359 the native grasses and in the way that they grow 0:40:29.440 --> 0:40:32.800 to enhance playability. But then as you reduce kind of 0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:35.799 the the that natural grass that well, then then more 0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:38.080 weeds come in, and so then it's not esthetically pleasing, 0:40:38.160 --> 0:40:41.040 and so it's it's it's full of trade offs, and 0:40:41.160 --> 0:40:43.320 I think that that's why people just have to be 0:40:43.480 --> 0:40:48.040 really thoughtful about where these naturalized areas go and and 0:40:48.200 --> 0:40:50.920 what a what an area that you take out where 0:40:50.920 --> 0:40:53.360 you remove turf should be. And it's often not just 0:40:53.480 --> 0:40:55.799 let it grow up to whatever wants to grow there, 0:40:55.840 --> 0:40:57.839 because that's not going to be something that I don't 0:40:57.840 --> 0:40:59.800 think golfers will enjoy and it'll be a pain for 0:41:00.000 --> 0:41:03.120 superintendent to manage. So it does have to be, you know, 0:41:03.239 --> 0:41:06.520 kind of a thoughtful, systemic approach to decide what to 0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:07.680 do with naturalized areas. 0:41:08.280 --> 0:41:11.200 All right, So a lot of the issues that we've 0:41:11.560 --> 0:41:16.200 discussed today have to do with what golf course managers 0:41:16.560 --> 0:41:21.160 and golf course superintendents might consider for the future of 0:41:21.520 --> 0:41:24.800 their golf courses. But I mean, I think that a 0:41:24.880 --> 0:41:29.200 lot of the impetus for change in the golf course 0:41:29.239 --> 0:41:33.600 industry has to come from from players and from golfers, 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:37.799 you know, looking at courses and asking questions about how 0:41:37.840 --> 0:41:41.080 they're maintained. And I'm not saying necessarily golfers need to 0:41:41.160 --> 0:41:44.160 be a pain in the butt to the gms and 0:41:44.200 --> 0:41:47.840 the superintendents at their courses. But what are some of 0:41:47.960 --> 0:41:50.680 the things that you think the everyday golfer can start 0:41:51.200 --> 0:41:56.360 noticing or start asking about golf courses as they relate 0:41:56.480 --> 0:41:59.840 to water conservation. What are just some kind of simple, 0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:06.840 sort of actionable items simple. I shouldn't have said simple, 0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:11.880 because nothing about this is simple, But I mean, so 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:14.960 at least some understandable things that you know, say you 0:42:15.120 --> 0:42:18.560 have your home course, and most golfers are not really 0:42:18.640 --> 0:42:21.839 going to know are we conserving water? Are we using 0:42:21.920 --> 0:42:25.600 too much water? Or are we being as efficient as possible? 0:42:26.000 --> 0:42:28.319 And so what what can golfers do at their home 0:42:28.400 --> 0:42:30.880 courses to encourage more conservation? 0:42:31.400 --> 0:42:33.879 Yeah, it's a it's a good question, and I think 0:42:34.520 --> 0:42:37.880 I think golfers can feel assured that whatever their situation, 0:42:38.560 --> 0:42:41.560 I would be pretty confident to say that their superintendent 0:42:41.680 --> 0:42:45.359 and their decision makers are delivering water in the most 0:42:45.400 --> 0:42:49.080 efficient way they can to produce the product or the 0:42:49.120 --> 0:42:52.719 conditions that golfers expect with the infrastructure that they have. 0:42:53.600 --> 0:42:56.919 And so the challenges with water conservation often come down 0:42:57.000 --> 0:43:00.000 to infrastructure, which we've spent along a lot of time 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:05.359 I'm talking about today, and expectations. And so if superintendent's 0:43:05.360 --> 0:43:07.640 buy and large know how and where they can save water, 0:43:07.760 --> 0:43:10.719 they just need in some ways the freedom and resources 0:43:10.760 --> 0:43:13.400 to do so. And so I think it's fair for 0:43:13.719 --> 0:43:15.880 golfers to ask these questions. I think it's important for 0:43:15.960 --> 0:43:18.439 golfers to ask these questions. But I think they've also 0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:22.480 got to realize that, you know, the expectations of the 0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:27.320 clientele of the golfing body for a golf course determine 0:43:27.440 --> 0:43:31.439 how far a superintendent can go with, you know, letting 0:43:31.520 --> 0:43:34.719 things go a little brown and having variable expectations during 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:37.040 a dry period. That could be a big way to 0:43:37.120 --> 0:43:40.239 save a lot of water. Is just you know, understanding 0:43:40.360 --> 0:43:43.800 that drought will happen during the summer sometimes and we 0:43:43.920 --> 0:43:46.319 might have some turf dormancy but you know, we're going 0:43:46.360 --> 0:43:48.040 to irrigate enough to make sure it doesn't die and 0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:50.839 it'll come back when it rains again or when we're 0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:54.360 no longer in a water shortage. And so these types 0:43:54.440 --> 0:43:58.719 of recalibrations and expectations I think are really important to 0:43:58.800 --> 0:44:03.040 the discussion around water conservation, and as important are the 0:44:03.120 --> 0:44:06.240 infrastructure questions you have to be able to. We're willing 0:44:06.840 --> 0:44:11.799 to invest and make sure that the golf course has 0:44:11.880 --> 0:44:15.240 what it needs in terms of irrigation and plant materials. 0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:17.319 You know, maybe it's time to regrass and get something 0:44:17.360 --> 0:44:19.120 that's more drought tolerant. Maybe it's time to take on 0:44:19.200 --> 0:44:21.239 a capital project and take some turf out of play, 0:44:21.560 --> 0:44:23.880 put in some new parts of an irrigation system, install 0:44:23.960 --> 0:44:27.759 some drip, and see what happens in terms of water conservation. 0:44:27.960 --> 0:44:31.560 So again, I think totally fair and important questions that 0:44:31.600 --> 0:44:34.200 golfers should be asking, But I think they've got to 0:44:34.560 --> 0:44:36.719 remember that at the end of the day, it comes 0:44:36.800 --> 0:44:39.200 down to what the golf course has for infrastructure and 0:44:39.280 --> 0:44:41.200 what the expectations are for that golf course. 0:44:42.400 --> 0:44:45.600 Now, from your perspective, as you're looking toward the future 0:44:45.920 --> 0:44:49.480 of the programs that you're helping run at the USGA. 0:44:50.440 --> 0:44:53.880 What are some areas of research related to water in 0:44:54.000 --> 0:44:57.399 golf that you're really excited about. What are the most 0:44:57.800 --> 0:45:02.440 potentially fruitful frontiers for advances that. 0:45:02.880 --> 0:45:05.560 I appreciate that question. That's a good one, because I 0:45:05.600 --> 0:45:07.680 think there's a lot to be excited about right now. 0:45:08.960 --> 0:45:12.200 We actually didn't talk about soil moisture meters, and you 0:45:12.280 --> 0:45:15.439 know how you know they can be used to even 0:45:15.560 --> 0:45:17.480 kind of that kind of they kind of provide that 0:45:18.400 --> 0:45:20.600 you know what your irrigation threshold is or what your 0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:23.480 drying threshold is, and that moisture meter is able to 0:45:24.040 --> 0:45:26.239 tell you that and tell you when it's dry, and 0:45:26.440 --> 0:45:28.799 it can tell you that quickly and in a site 0:45:28.840 --> 0:45:32.239 specific way, and so you can deliver water again only 0:45:32.280 --> 0:45:35.000 when where it's needed. And I think that those types 0:45:35.040 --> 0:45:37.399 of projects where we were were kind of showing people 0:45:37.760 --> 0:45:41.040 how to better use some of these existing technologies and 0:45:41.480 --> 0:45:46.000 what that means for water conservation and the bottom line 0:45:46.040 --> 0:45:47.600 for a golf course at the end of a year. 0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:50.320 I think I think those can be really beneficial and 0:45:50.360 --> 0:45:54.680 impactful for the industry. Apart from that, I mean, I 0:45:54.719 --> 0:45:59.200 think we still we're going to continue down the breeding 0:46:00.200 --> 0:46:04.360 realm of work and that workstream. The worst thing to 0:46:04.440 --> 0:46:08.200 do after you've improved any plant through breeding is to 0:46:08.360 --> 0:46:11.000 just stop, because you can keep getting a percent or 0:46:11.040 --> 0:46:13.879 two gains every year if you keep going. So twenty 0:46:13.960 --> 0:46:16.080 years from now, if we would have stopped, we would 0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:19.319 really probably regret that decision. And so I think you're 0:46:19.320 --> 0:46:21.319 going to continue to see us thinking about the long 0:46:21.400 --> 0:46:23.759 game and trying to do that type of work. And 0:46:23.840 --> 0:46:27.520 then I really want to learn from other sectors within 0:46:27.600 --> 0:46:31.879 the agriculture industry and use some of these innovative technologies 0:46:32.000 --> 0:46:35.200 and sensory based systems that we're not using in turf 0:46:35.280 --> 0:46:37.160 right now, and I think we can find ways to 0:46:37.239 --> 0:46:40.960 apply them to where it will be really scalable to 0:46:41.160 --> 0:46:44.919 quickly make irrigation decisions without having to install a bunch 0:46:44.960 --> 0:46:46.760 of you So I'm west your sensors in the ground, 0:46:47.360 --> 0:46:49.960 and so I think those are the types of projects 0:46:50.000 --> 0:46:53.239 that I'm most interested in and excited about. And really 0:46:53.280 --> 0:46:56.279 it comes down to just you know, managing as precisely 0:46:56.360 --> 0:46:59.359 as we can and being as informed as we can 0:46:59.840 --> 0:47:02.800 through data, and so we just want to find ways 0:47:02.800 --> 0:47:04.480 to enable that excellent. 0:47:04.560 --> 0:47:06.839 All right, Well, it sounds like there is a lot 0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:10.040 to be worried about, but there's also a good deal 0:47:10.120 --> 0:47:13.680 to be excited about on the research front. I appreciate 0:47:13.760 --> 0:47:16.880 you coming back on the podcast again, Cale, and I 0:47:16.920 --> 0:47:20.640 guess when Earth Day twenty twenty three comes around, we'll 0:47:20.680 --> 0:47:23.680 have you back again. Maybe maybe we'll figure out another 0:47:23.920 --> 0:47:28.040 domain of your research to investigate. But thanks so much 0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:30.160 for coming on today. Appreciate it. Sounds great. 0:47:30.239 --> 0:47:30.439 Kurt. 0:47:30.560 --> 0:47:43.600 Thanks. This episode of the Frida Egg Podcast was edited 0:47:43.680 --> 0:47:46.200 by Meg Atkins. If you'd like to keep up with 0:47:46.239 --> 0:47:48.360 what we're doing at the Frida Egg and with general 0:47:48.400 --> 0:47:51.640 happenings in the golf world, subscribe to the Frida Egg newsletter. 0:47:52.000 --> 0:47:54.600 It's free, it comes out three days a week, and 0:47:54.800 --> 0:47:57.359 it'll keep you up to date with current events and golf. 0:47:57.840 --> 0:48:01.680 So go to the fridagg dot com click subscribe. Thanks 0:48:01.719 --> 0:48:02.160 for listening.