WEBVTT - Why did Taylor Swift stop singing in a country accent? 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:04.480 Hey, what's up y'all? Steven, just the heads up. 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.880 We have a No Such Thing listeners survey out right 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:10.559 now that you can take. It's your opportunity to tell 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:12.920 us what you like about the show, what you would 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:15.360 like for us to change about the show. As we're 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.720 thinking about programming for season three of No Such Thing, 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:21.759 this is something we're gonna be paying very close attention to. 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.200 So you can take that survey by either clicking the 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:27.400 link in our show notes or going to No Such 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:32.720 Thing dot show. All right, enjoy today's episode. 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:44.760 Hi'm Manny Noah, and. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:46.800 This is Devin and this is No such Thing the 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:49.840 show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.920 actually doing the research. On today's episode, why did Taylor 0:00:53.960 --> 0:01:00.640 Swift stop singing in a cont reaccent? We explore authenticity 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:02.360 in popular music. 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:11.280 There's no no such thing, no such thing. No touch, thank. 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.680 Touch thank no touch. 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:22.840 Than all right. 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.840 So today's episode was inspired by a listener email. This 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:35.280 is from Joel V. He says, my wife asked me 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.000 a question the other day as we were driving somewhere. 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.800 This is his wife. Why do we only hear pronounce 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:47.120 accents and country music songs? It seems like whenever Americans 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.120 hear songs by British artists, we can never relate a 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:55.800 cer in their accent. However, with country songs, the accent 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:01.360 is clear. Their other top genres were accent is clear. 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:08.920 All right, Joel, great question and miss Jeel. So this 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:11.680 is something we've been talking about over the years and 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.480 thinking about accents and music more broadly before we get 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.400 you know, zero in on Joel's question, how do you 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.080 all feel with this general premise that basically outside of 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:28.200 country music, it's kind of hard to discern accents in music. 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:31.440 Yeah, I don't know if it's that black and white, 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.359 but I certainly I know what they're getting at, which is, 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:38.000 you know, growing up, I've been always fascinated hearing or 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.560 like finding out that a singer is English. You know, 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:43.640 we see this in acting all the time, but it 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:45.840 adds in in music as well. 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.240 I feel like this is more of a thing in 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:54.280 pop music, where it's harder to discern. You know, I 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.880 think our classic example is like we think of like 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:01.280 you're saying, like someone from the UK not being even like, 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.880 oh shoot, I thought you were American, but because you know, 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.480 in let's say genre like rap. 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:12.320 Yeah, it is very clear when is it's close to. 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.680 The spoken word, Yeah, dizzy Rascal. 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:20.079 Yes, there are some of our examples of artists that 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.160 you are like, whoa, I didn't realize this person was 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:24.120 from this place. 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.320 Well I remember, uh do you guys remember Leonna Lewis? 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:27.720 Oh? 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.200 Yeah, so in two thousand and eight. I think she 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:44.640 had the song Bleeding Love, and the reason it's more 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.000 clear to me as you guys know. Obviously I am 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.880 married to an English woman and you like that I 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:53.200 can tell the most obvious difference between the American accent 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:57.760 and English accent is they don't pronounce r, so instead 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:02.160 of first, it'd be like first or whatever, or like 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.920 you know, let's go out there, let's go out there 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:13.040 and Leona Lewis and so you can hear in in 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.680 the verse. It's not just that her accent disappears. They 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:21.720 are literally pronouncing the words like Americans. 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:29.800 So outs songs. 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:31.920 So that's always been you. It would be hard to 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:36.560 act to like accidentally pronounce first like an American, I think, 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:38.600 instead of I don't know, maybe when you're singing you're 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:40.960 reading out enunciating the letters. 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.080 That's kind of my that's my my guess I was 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.240 thinking of. I was thinking about trying to think of 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.560 some examples, and then I was watching a movie yesterday 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:52.919 and Elvis Costello was in it, and Elvis Costello is English. 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.240 He's a rock kind of new wave rock guy. And 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:57.640 I was like, oh, let me, let me listen to 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.480 him and see, because I remember listening to him back 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.360 in middle school or something, and I didn't know anything 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:04.839 about him, and I was listening to him. 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:05.320 Just I guess. 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.159 I assumed he was American, and he had a lyric 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.359 in a song that was like something mister Oswald with 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:21.160 a swastika tattoo tattoo el dude, and I assumed he 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:22.760 was talking about Lee Harvey Oswald. 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:24.479 And I was like, Okay, there's a lot of theories 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:25.000 around this guy. 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:28.640 I've never heard this particular one, so I remember actually 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.360 looking it up then, but it was like, oh, it's 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:35.520 talking about like a well known fascist British politician. 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.719 Yeah, oh that makes sense, and then the references. 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.919 Yeah, So I was like, so it was from that context, clue. 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.080 But even in his songs, that are some songs he's 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.400 more belting it out and some he's not talking, but 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:50.960 a little bit more like faster where it's seems more 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:53.680 closer to language. When I listened to him, I wouldn't. 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:54.800 I don't hear an. 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.600 Accent at all, so it's only the contextual clues of 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.560 what he's singing about away for So yeah. 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:06.120 Reverse examples. Are there Americans that try to sound. 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.640 Yeah, I think there's a lot of like like the 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.440 Ramones kind of do a little effect like whatever Blitz 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:23.480 Creekbop or something you can get, and they're just singing 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:25.040 in a it's just a little style where it's like 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.080 not how you would actually talk if you're a person. 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.840 They're just like a little you know. That's the most 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:37.240 prominent example I can think of. 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.120 And then I was there's a band Rancid, who are 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.279 like later On, who are like very influenced by the Class, 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.320 who are an English band, and the guy's just clearly 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:50.280 doing a Joe Strummer clearly just heard him and is 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:57.760 singing like him. 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:04.800 Say, It's like, I don't know, maybe he's just some 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.039 street punk guy doing this thing, but it's like, yeah, 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:09.320 he's trying to do this thing. 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:11.320 And that's funny because then there were bands copying. This 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.520 guy becomes a real copy of a copy of all 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:18.160 these guys mostly American, trying to sound like this British 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.120 guy from you know, generations before. 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:21.000 Now that's fast. 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.280 But those are the ones I've I've thought. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.120 Of, Oh, the guy from Grila, Damon Alburn from the 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:30.920 band Blur, these English and Gorillas and they I guess 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:32.880 they do a lot more kind of almost talking stuff. 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:35.280 So he you can hear is he sounds extreme. 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.240 He has a strong accent and it comes through in 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:38.960 the music because it's more talking. 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:41.280 Like if you listen to whatever Clint Eastward or any of. 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:47.559 Those songs that happened glad I got Sunshine in a back, 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:49.240 I'm useless. 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:54.040 But belong So there's no no mystery there. Yeah, when 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:54.640 he's melting it. 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:59.000 Out here like the English singers that sound English when 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.200 they sing. So that's her name, Lily Allen, that big 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.160 Lily Allen song from like the mid two thousands. It 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:06.400 was very clear. 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.040 Yeah, and again that's like a little more talking. 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:15.000 But that down next. 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.360 I want to do that for. 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:20.800 Yeah, there's the lack of ours. 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:22.560 Yeah, does Adele do this? 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.560 I was I was just yeah, let's pay that's this 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.640 is my my belting theory. If you're belting it out 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:30.800 and Adele is one of our great belters. 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:32.760 I think it's a lot harder to hear. 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.800 Ye this way, her singing accent is nowhere near Well 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:37.520 that's the thing, yeah, because that's the thing. 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.480 You know, she has a very thick accent talking. 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:43.240 And Jennydale is little chopnut bits of eel which is 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.800 probably just boiled actually now think about it, so got 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:46.839 no flavor in it at all. 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:48.320 Because that's I was trying to think of, like, Okay, 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:51.439 the Beatles, and it's like, I, you obviously know they're English, 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:53.960 but it's more like, Okay, I recognize that's John Lennon's voice, 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.439 and I know how he sounds when he's talking. Yeah, 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.000 I don't actually think there's an accent when he's singing. 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:01.000 Then there's obviously song is when they're doing more of 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:03.560 a talk like you can hear it more, but mostly 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.000 if you hear whatever Tristan Showder or something, Yeah, I wouldn't. 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.000 Think that, but let's hear Adele. 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:14.880 Yeah, they they by starting in my hoating that fever 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.040 pictures bringing me out the dog. 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.600 It's just kind of like the classic soul singer voice, 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:23.760 you know that doesn't necessarily sound English. 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:24.760 What about Taylor Swift. 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:26.640 Yeah, you think about it. 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.640 Like when she first came out, she was singing in 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:35.240 that like crazy Nashville country accent. Like I remember one 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.080 of my good friends, his cousin like went to like 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:42.640 high school with or elementary school younger with Taylor Swift 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.640 and she's from Pennsylvania. And I was like, wait a minute, 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.200 you went to school with Taylor. Isn't Taylor Swift from. 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.520 Like yeah, Kentucky or yeah, somewhere down. 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.760 So it's like, no, she's from Pennsylvania. 0:09:53.840 --> 0:10:00.880 And he said street singing out tadonio window when we're 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:02.839 on the phone and it's all real. 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:05.760 So because it's late and your mama don't. 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.040 Know a song is that's crazy? Actually haven't. I don't know. 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:10.200 I've never heard that song. 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:10.760 Yeah. 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.920 This her transition to pop was like a gradual thing, 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.319 right like nineteen eighty nine, I guess was. 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.240 Like the one that was fully no. 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:19.400 Yeah, like I'm not. 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:23.480 Pretending anymore at all, but that early stuff that's really 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:24.920 like a country toWin. 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.440 Yeah, fully country accent as opposed to what I was 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:29.760 imagining was like a little bit of a you know, 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:30.400 a tilt. 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:31.240 Yeah. 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:34.840 No, that's like, yeah, that's a little bit crazy and 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:36.440 then you know, and I she's making pop music and 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.280 like it doesn't exist anymore. But this is the crazy 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.079 thing when I was looking for this. So she performed 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:46.960 this more recently on the Error's tour, so I was curious, 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:52.040 how does it sound? How similar this tailor sounds? Does 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:53.240 she go back to that twang? 0:10:53.480 --> 0:11:07.680 And he said, don't know. 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:08.640 She's done like the pop version now. 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.920 She completely lost the accent. Wow, or more accurately, she's 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:13.240 no longer putting on an ac. 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.679 Yeah, it's like, you know, obviously she was much younger 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.440 when that song came out. But this is not like, Okay, 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.319 my voice is different, I'm singing in different key. 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:30.080 This is like the different Yeah. 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:31.240 Yeah, So what I want to do is I'm gonna 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.080 play some songs and I want you guys to try 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:34.960 to guess. 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.760 It's like where the artist is from. The one rules. 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.120 If you know who the artist is, don't say. 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:41.760 Anything where the artist is from in terms of just 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:42.640 their nationality. 0:11:43.600 --> 0:12:05.400 Yeah, I don't know this. 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.640 I don't know this song either. Well, carrying the song, 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.320 I'm just clar there's something away. 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:14.719 I get five dollars if I get this. 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.040 There was something about the way he said the word 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.280 to t O that I thought was English. 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.520 Yeah, I'm getting English vibes, but I'm I'm in my head. 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:26.880 Now, okay, So that is McGhee from New Jersey. What 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:28.240 the he? 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:29.400 Wow? 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:30.400 That's incredible? 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:36.760 All right, let me play and a little faith in me. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:40.800 In his car the only star a lord on his 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:46.160 nerve and the camerasine cops they could have been stars 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.800 and this news scream I'm. 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:50.360 Going UK again. 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.880 I think he said cameras in a very UK way. 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.359 There's a couple of cameras. 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:56.120 What do we got? 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.280 This one's a little bit of a cheat. It's Mustafa 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:04.280 He's so, I'll give you half a point for that. 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.400 We in Canada, Toronto, Toronto? 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:08.760 Did you have an accent there? 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.280 I'll give you half a point because you know, okay, 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:16.080 the queen's on the Queen's on the money. Yeah, i'll 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:18.440 give you that one. Okay, I'll give you guys an 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:18.880 easy one. 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.880 I ain't really got no, so I pulled. I just 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.400 hope that God don't take them all my niggas. We 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:28.240 drive step in the street and we. 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.000 Were waiting on the life go and hope he's saved 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.400 the way for the calls right there. 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:32.880 We hoping. 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:35.720 I feel I don't know, I'm scared now, but they 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.480 wouldn't be dropping that word like that over there. So yeah, 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:40.480 this guy's American. 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.920 Yeah this is no cap from Mobile, Alabama. 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:46.360 All right, let's still. 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:53.760 Away if left today, but if goodbye to safe. 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:58.880 But this has to be like one of the one 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:01.000 direction guys. 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:01.840 What a flus, the mind. 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:04.760 Far behind and the. 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.520 Never American American. 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.720 I'm gonna go English, English, you're American. 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:11.800 You're both wrong? 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:12.959 What this is? 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.120 Troy Savonne from Australia. 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.760 I was like, he see me too? I thought it 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:23.160 was like, what's the what's the guy's name from? Not 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:29.120 him the dane zay because he said never without an R. 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.640 But I guess in Australia they also do that. 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.080 You guys did horrible at that game, did any right? 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.880 Yeah, we got a half point for Canadian. I should 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.400 also get a half point for Australian. So I got 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:40.120 a full point. 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.720 So maybe we're not so good at well, at least 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.680 you two aren't so good at the certain Yeah, well 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.360 at least we think we are. So we are gonna 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.080 be joined by New Yorker music writer and critic call 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:56.280 and we're gonna go deep on genre gatekeeping and of 0:14:56.360 --> 0:15:01.360 course accents in popular music. All that after the break. 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:12.720 All right, fellas, I need you to help me with 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:14.720 a problem that I got. You know, usually we're the 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.200 ones helping other people with their problems. But I'm about 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.600 to go abroad and I'm going to watch Met games. Noah, 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:20.480 how can I watch them? 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:21.080 That's a tough one. 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.320 Maybe get a really large telescope. 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:25.320 I don't think that's the best way to do it. Manny, 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:27.200 Do you have any solutions on how I can watch 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:27.680 Mets games? 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.480 You broad I think I've got a slightly more practical 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:34.200 solution for you, Devin. 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Our link will also give you four 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:33.080 extra months on the two year plan, and there's no 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.280 risk because Nord has a thirty day money back guarantee. 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.600 The link is in the show notes. That's NordVPN dot 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:46.440 com slash nst. 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:46.320 So. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.560 In the studio, we're joined by Quay, who's a critic 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.920 inter writer at The New Yorker and author of Major Labels, 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.320 A History of Popular Music, and Seven Genres. 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.040 Good News, Bad News. You have my book here? 0:16:59.200 --> 0:16:59.520 It's like that. 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:01.000 I was looking you have the cover. I was like, wow, 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.640 why does it have a kind of a plastic key. 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:04.800 That's a library book. 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:08.320 I support my local library, and you know what, I 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.720 was doing early in this podcast was I was buying 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.760 every single book, and then I got some books that 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:14.720 I didn't want to keep. 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:16.840 I see you're saying this might be one of them. 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:18.120 Well, we'll find out. 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:20.920 This is the audition by the end of the episode. 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:23.000 You know, is that a thing on your show? Like 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:25.120 at the end of the episode, if it goes well, 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:26.880 I get to watch you log onto Amazon. 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:32.080 And so just as a reminder, uh, this episode started 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.639 with a question from unless your named Joel, why do 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:37.800 we only hear pronounce accents in country music? 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:40.680 First of all, do you agree with that premise? 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:46.040 No, that's insane. Okay, all right, right on the same page. Well, like, 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:46.840 what's an accent? 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:47.320 Right? 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:50.920 And to be fair to Joel, he says pronounced accents 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:52.800 like you. Yes, I think he thinks you can hear 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.080 you know, if someone's got an English accent, for example. 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.159 Well, I wonder if when Joel says pronounced accents he 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:00.639 means fake? 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:02.680 Is that his polite way of saying fake? 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:04.280 I think he yes. 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:09.720 From the rest of the email, it seems like performative maybe, 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:10.520 if not fake. 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:13.520 Well, yes, it's. 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.400 Funny because in one definition, any musician who has any 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.399 the accent is performative by definition if you're performing. But 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:21.720 yes in terms of in terms of there being a 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.280 noticeable difference between the accent and the way you talk 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.360 in every day life, or a sense that the accent 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.800 is there to help you try to like fit in 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.480 with the genre you're part of. Yeah, you hear some 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:33.959 of that in country, but yeah, I think you hear 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.240 in other places too. Obviously, country has a more regional 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.240 identity in some ways, although even that gets a little 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:43.280 complicated by what. 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:44.280 We mean by regional. 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:46.560 There's a lot of different there's a lot of different 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:48.280 reasons a person might have an accent. 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.560 So yes, you tell me where are we going? 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.560 But I want to start with country music, okay, because 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:00.879 that was where you know, that was Joe. But you 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.679 talk about this Country is an interesting genre because I 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:05.400 think it gate keeps in a way that a lot 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:06.800 of other genres just don't. 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.000 I disagree, but please, oh okay. 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:16.080 There is this thing in country music in which they 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:19.760 love to talk about sort of like authenticity and holding 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.120 on to that. And there are certain when you talk 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.320 about this in your books, certain signifiers of country music 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.560 that we all know of. So can you talk a 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:32.400 little bit about sort of like country music's positioning of 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:36.760 sort of like authenticity and sort of this fear of 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.760 like almost being too big and like holding on to that. 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:41.960 Well, I want to zoom out a little bit, because 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:45.080 when I think about musical genres, I think of them 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:49.320 as communities. And it's like a community of listeners and musicians, 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:51.879 sometimes literally in the same room. But sometimes it's just 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.560 like you're listening to the music and you're like imagining 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:56.440 the other people that might also listen to this. 0:19:56.440 --> 0:20:00.080 Music, and you know, you're listening to Dolly Parton, and. 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.520 For the half hour that the album lasts, you can 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:08.919 become the kind of person who listens to Dolly Parton, 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:11.000 Like that's part of the fun. And so when you 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:16.240 think about a community, any community needs gatekeeping. Sometimes a 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:19.640 gatekeeping might be like literally turning people away, and especially 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:21.960 if you want it to feel to have some sense 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.439 of intimacy, some sense of like, oh, me and you 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.040 have something in common that's a little different from those 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:30.560 people out there. We need some way to distinguish ourselves, 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:33.240 and you know, accents can be one way of doing that. 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.000 That could be one signal I use this kind of language, 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:39.239 I you know, you know but also vocabulary and all 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.600 sorts of things. And so I think that I think 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:47.080 that the question of how inclusive or exclusive a community 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:49.240 is is a little bit hard to It's a little 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.439 bit hard to define because it depends who wants to 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.680 get in and and you know you're and again, the 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.080 bigger your community is, the more you're going to maybe 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:00.560 look to charts or other metrics of success to see. 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:01.600 Like what we all agree on. 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.880 And so yeah, the question of like it's hard. So yeah, 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:07.760 it's hard to even know how you would rank, Like 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:13.159 does country is country music more gatekeepery than techno? I 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:16.320 don't know, man, Like techno has some rules and those 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.200 clubs might be like literally hard to get into, whereas 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:21.600 like anyone can buy a ticket to a country music concert. 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:24.960 So I think that in country music, yes there's gatekeeping, 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.000 but there is I think more than that, there's a 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:30.280 sense of identity. And so the question of what that 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.440 identity is is obviously. 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:38.440 Extremely vexed in every genre, including country music. You could 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:40.119 look at them not playing Beyonce, but you have to 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:42.000 keep in mind these are the same radio stations that 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:45.040 also don't play Taylor Swift because they also don't view 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.200 Taylor Swift as like really country enough, sure, but they're 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:49.639 happy to play shaboozi. 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.840 Can you walk us through this country music identity? 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:01.160 It starts as a kind of disparate thing, right, country 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:04.840 and Western when Billboard is doing these charts of country 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:08.360 music and Western music, and those are thought of as 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.320 like maybe slightly separate things. Right, you think about the 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:15.400 musical traditions of the American Southeast. You think about what 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:18.719 would be called sometimes hillbilly music, You think about string bands, 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:22.280 and then you think about Western music, the iconography of cowboys, 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:27.000 you know, Texas swing, all sorts of stuff, and that 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:31.879 stuff kind of mashes together and it becomes something with 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:34.920 a more specific identity. And in some ways that identity 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.560 is inclusive, right, because you know, the idea that someone 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:41.320 in Nashville, Tennessee would wear a cowboy hat is a 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:43.080 little weird. In the first place. There's not a lot 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:46.320 of ranches in Nashville, Tennessee. So the western thing kind 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:50.280 of migrates, but it also becomes exclusive in various ways. 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:53.000 One way it becomes exclusive is, you know, it's thought 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:55.359 of as this is rural music and a lot of 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:56.159 country songs. 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:57.840 From the beginning of its existence as a. 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:01.760 Genre are about the fact that the singers themselves used 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:04.080 to live in some rural place, or America used to 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:06.920 be rural, and now we've come to the city, which 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:09.160 is what creates the country music industry. Right now we've 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:11.600 come to we're at the Wheeling Jamboree, or we're at 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:14.840 the Grand Ole Opry in Nashville. But we remember the 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:16.800 way things used to be. So that sense of like 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:18.960 we remember how things used to be when things were 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.280 more rural is a big part of the identity of 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:25.080 country music as a rural genre. At various points, it 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:28.400 comes to be perceived as a Southern genre. The western 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:29.080 part sort. 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:30.680 Of like fades away a little bit. 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:33.320 You know, nowadays you don't say country in Western you 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:38.120 say country. Obviously, one of the most fun ones which 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:40.800 I've saved until now, is it comes to be thought 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:44.880 of as white music. And this despite the fact that obviously, 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:47.080 if you look at the history of country music, there's 0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:50.199 tons of black musicians who have contributed to this history. 0:23:50.320 --> 0:23:52.879 Here's Dave Ford Bailey with the fox Chains. 0:24:06.160 --> 0:24:09.119 And what happens at a certain point is that the 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:12.520 genre itself comes to be seen as segregated in a 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:16.200 way that kind of mirrors the segregation of American life. 0:24:16.640 --> 0:24:19.639 So the white performers from this genre are kind of 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:22.800 pulled out towards this thing that gets called country music, 0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:24.960 and some of the black performers you might say, are 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:29.200 excluded from that tradition or are considered more rhythm and blues. 0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:32.399 And so you know, you have Ray Charles making a 0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:36.560 country album that doesn't necessarily get played on country radio stations. 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:45.000 Here's that brocm hat what Time has. 0:24:46.800 --> 0:24:49.840 So part of the identity of the genre is it's 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:52.479 going to be a white genre. Ye, And that's a 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:55.440 thing that is hard to That's an interesting thing to 0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:57.000 kind of grapple with because I think a lot of 0:24:57.040 --> 0:24:59.280 people have a reaction when they hear that of like, 0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:03.040 that's really that it's white. But then you think about 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:05.679 R and B, which is thought of as a black genre. 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:08.639 Well, Jack Carlow would say otherwise. 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:12.640 That's right, come on and Jack with his extra tall 0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:13.520 hat ely. 0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:17.360 I mean, obviously I love it when people are playing 0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:21.800 in transgressing in that kind of a way. So, but generally, 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:23.920 the idea that R and B music is black music 0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:26.840 is often talked about as something to celebrate like this, 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:29.440 this is a black musical tradition, like this is great, 0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:31.439 this is something to be proud of. But you know, 0:25:32.080 --> 0:25:35.000 if you do the math, in a country that's what 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:39.400 thirteen percent black, if you have black genres, you're also 0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:43.600 gonna have white genres, just like mathematically and so the 0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:46.919 and so to. One way I think about country music 0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:51.960 is that it's it's almost mathematically necessary if you're gonna 0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:55.640 have some disproportionately black genres in America that in a country. 0:25:55.359 --> 0:25:57.959 That's still whatever it is, fifty eight percent non Hispanic 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:02.000 white or something, you're gonna have some disproportionately white genres. 0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:03.760 And then the question is, well, like, how do we 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:06.159 think about that, and how do we think about diversity 0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:07.800 within a genre? And the reason I bring up R 0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:08.080 and B. 0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:10.520 Is because it's a good example of how like we 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:12.879 might not want that. We might not look at R 0:26:12.920 --> 0:26:14.480 and B and be like, wow, that's a shame that 0:26:14.480 --> 0:26:15.720 it's so many black performers. 0:26:15.760 --> 0:26:17.520 I wish it was only thirteen percent black. 0:26:17.359 --> 0:26:22.320 Performers and half percent Hispanic and you know, so you know, 0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:27.920 I don't think it's obvious that musical segregation is bad. 0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:29.919 Or is a problem in a genre. 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:31.840 One of the things I love about popular music is 0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:35.240 that it reflects America, good, bad, and otherwise. And so 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:39.280 to the extent that Americans are living somewhat segregated lives, 0:26:39.880 --> 0:26:42.919 I would expect and even in a way celebrate the 0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:46.480 idea that music would reflect that, rather than sugarcoating it, 0:26:46.600 --> 0:26:49.560 or rather than pretending something different is happening. So yes, 0:26:49.600 --> 0:26:53.000 country has and still does kind of grapple with its 0:26:53.040 --> 0:26:56.520 identity as white music. So yes, you get all these things, 0:26:56.560 --> 0:26:58.960 and you still have this, but you do still have 0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:02.600 this trace of an accent. And when we think of 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:04.720 an accent, we kind of think of a country accent 0:27:04.800 --> 0:27:17.240 as a singular thing taking to the place, whereas, of 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:21.879 course traditionally someone from Georgia and someone from Texas have 0:27:21.960 --> 0:27:24.600 pretty different ways of speaking, especially if you're from one 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:28.240 of those places. In country music, one of the things 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:31.600 that happens is that all these different regional musical traditions 0:27:31.640 --> 0:27:36.679 sort of combine into one sort of all the same 0:27:36.760 --> 0:27:39.439 but sort of different mega tradition. Right, you get country 0:27:39.520 --> 0:27:43.000 music out of all these different regional traditions that exist 0:27:43.080 --> 0:27:46.800 before it. And so similarly, maybe and I'm not a linguist, 0:27:46.840 --> 0:27:48.800 maybe you get something that sort of feels like a 0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:53.240 country accent, so that when Taylor Swift from outside of 0:27:53.240 --> 0:27:58.600 Pittsburgh is making country records and sending them to country radio, 0:27:59.240 --> 0:28:01.120 she's using a little bit more of. 0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:01.959 A country accent. 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:14.040 And when she starts making records that are more considered 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:17.120 or marketed or influenced by pop music, you hear less 0:28:17.160 --> 0:28:29.560 of that. Sage Sea, and I think, I think you 0:28:29.600 --> 0:28:32.840 know we're talking about music, right, So we're talking about singers, 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:35.280 and we're talking about people using their voice and also 0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:39.040 using words to create music. So whenever you're turning words 0:28:39.080 --> 0:28:41.959 into music, the question of how you pronounce those words 0:28:42.320 --> 0:28:45.360 is going to be an important musical strategy. Right, So 0:28:45.400 --> 0:28:47.480 that the sounds of country music, the sound of a 0:28:47.520 --> 0:28:51.240 pedal steel or of an electric guitar, maybe we associate 0:28:51.320 --> 0:28:54.880 that with certain pronunciations, a certain way of dropping a g, 0:28:55.160 --> 0:28:58.280 a certain way of extending a vowel here or there. 0:28:58.680 --> 0:29:00.000 So when you start. 0:28:59.800 --> 0:29:03.240 Making that music, I think, I don't want to say naturally, 0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:04.960 it's hard to know what is or isn't natural, but 0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:08.360 I think it's it's inevitable that people would start using 0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:10.160 that sort of accent. 0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:11.120 Because it feels organic. 0:29:11.280 --> 0:29:12.920 Yeah, it feels like it's linked to the sort of 0:29:13.000 --> 0:29:14.960 music you want you're making, and that you know this 0:29:15.080 --> 0:29:17.640 once you start looking for that, that's everywhere, right. That's like, 0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:20.320 that's like British rock bands in the sixties singing with 0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:23.000 an American accent because that's what seems to go with 0:29:23.120 --> 0:29:25.320 rock and roll, and like, if you try to pin 0:29:25.440 --> 0:29:35.200 down Mick Jagger's accent, you'd be like, whoa, it's not English. 0:29:36.400 --> 0:29:39.440 And you know, a certain kind of American drawl seemed 0:29:39.440 --> 0:29:42.000 like it fit with a backbeat and an electric guitar, 0:29:42.120 --> 0:29:45.880 and so yeah, there is a certain way of having 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:47.920 an accent that seems to fit with country music. And 0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:50.720 I think that, as with anything that has to do 0:29:50.760 --> 0:29:52.760 with music, I think there's a corny way to do it. 0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:55.120 There's a way to do it that doesn't feel that corny, 0:29:55.640 --> 0:29:58.720 and so obviously part of your job as a as 0:29:58.760 --> 0:30:01.680 a singer, as a a performer of popular music is 0:30:01.720 --> 0:30:06.080 not to seem corny. That's like really important, and there's 0:30:06.120 --> 0:30:07.840 no rules about how to do that. It's just like 0:30:07.880 --> 0:30:10.680 the audience is gonna decide what does and doesn't feel 0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:14.280 a little ridiculous, and you know, and it's fascinating when 0:30:14.320 --> 0:30:16.720 you see people from other parts of the world. Right, 0:30:17.360 --> 0:30:20.960 you see Shania Twain from Canada, you're still. 0:30:20.800 --> 0:30:21.640 The one over. 0:30:27.360 --> 0:30:31.240 You see Keith Urban, Yeah, I believe born in New Zealand, 0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:33.600 but spent some time in Australia. People always getting mad 0:30:33.640 --> 0:30:35.760 if you if you messed that up, but yes, from 0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:45.280 that part of the world somebody, and yes, well I 0:30:45.320 --> 0:30:47.720 personally think it would be fascinating to hear like a 0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:51.240 Keith Urban record with like a thick accent that suggests 0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:54.400 Australia and New Zealand. Obviously, he's found a way to 0:30:54.440 --> 0:30:57.000 do it where it's not corny, he doesn't sound like 0:30:57.000 --> 0:30:59.960 he's on he ha. But it fits into other songs 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:01.920 you hear on the radio, so it's not jumping out 0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:04.000 at you of like, what's this guy from a different 0:31:04.000 --> 0:31:06.840 country doing on my radio station? So yeah, people find 0:31:06.840 --> 0:31:09.800 a way to fit in and hopefully not make it 0:31:09.840 --> 0:31:11.080 sound too ridiculous. 0:31:11.160 --> 0:31:11.920 Obviously, there are. 0:31:11.840 --> 0:31:16.120 Moments in popular music where people lean into their local accent, right, 0:31:16.240 --> 0:31:18.560 and that can be that could be a musical strategy, 0:31:18.640 --> 0:31:21.520 right if your kneecap and you're like, we're not going 0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:23.240 to rap all the time in English, We're going to 0:31:23.360 --> 0:31:33.800 use our indigenous Irish language mockery, and then in other 0:31:33.840 --> 0:31:36.080 times people want to be part of a tradition, so 0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:40.320 they're delivering lyrics in English. I think a professional linguist 0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:43.200 could probably write a really interesting paper and probably has 0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:46.680 about the use of English in K pop and the 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:50.880 use of sometimes not quite idiomatic English, And maybe there's 0:31:50.920 --> 0:31:54.000 a maybe there's a specific thing where then, like if 0:31:54.040 --> 0:31:57.200 you're in katsi or something, you're using a kind of 0:31:57.280 --> 0:32:00.440 k pop ish English to signal that you along to 0:32:00.480 --> 0:32:16.040 this K pop community, even though obviously the music and 0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:18.400 the language of K pop is very much influenced by 0:32:18.440 --> 0:32:19.440 American pop music. 0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:23.240 Yeah, yeah, it's this weird sort of I think there 0:32:23.280 --> 0:32:26.120 was an interview or people were questioning some of the 0:32:26.200 --> 0:32:27.520 members of cats I about. 0:32:27.280 --> 0:32:29.920 Like why did you guys use these lyrics and his song? 0:32:29.960 --> 0:32:33.600 And they're like if you didn't write this, Like yeah, 0:32:33.840 --> 0:32:35.600 it sounds kind of weird to us too, But now 0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:37.520 it's becoming its own new thing of. 0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:39.440 Like, well, and you see that that's similar, that's like 0:32:39.440 --> 0:32:40.160 Britney spears. 0:32:40.200 --> 0:32:40.880 Yeah, exactly. 0:32:40.920 --> 0:32:44.240 Maybe one more time, Max Martin like he didn't know that. 0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:44.920 We don't say that. 0:32:45.520 --> 0:32:49.520 Yeah, for those of you who don't know Max Martin 0:32:49.720 --> 0:32:54.240 is a legendary Swedish producer and songwriter. He's produced some 0:32:54.280 --> 0:32:56.680 of the biggest pop hits over the last thirty years, 0:32:57.000 --> 0:33:02.320 working with Britney Spears, Taylor Swift, the Backstreet Boys and more. 0:33:02.880 --> 0:33:06.320 Hit Me One More Time, Don't That's Not Yet? Or 0:33:06.440 --> 0:33:08.560 like you know when you think of like Backstreet Boys, Yeah, 0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:10.479 I want to say I want it that way, like 0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:15.120 what are you talking and yes, and if a song 0:33:15.160 --> 0:33:17.640 becomes big enough, we're like, oh, that's just the language 0:33:17.640 --> 0:33:18.200 of pop music. 0:33:18.320 --> 0:33:19.680 Yeah, it becomes its own thing. 0:33:24.760 --> 0:33:28.480 I want to go back to your country music example, 0:33:28.800 --> 0:33:31.920 because you talk about in your book too, especially early 0:33:32.040 --> 0:33:35.240 days of country music, of these white artists who are 0:33:35.560 --> 0:33:39.120 writing speaking to this like hip hop example, as if 0:33:39.320 --> 0:33:42.160 they are a black artists in trying to use black lingo. 0:33:42.760 --> 0:33:46.480 And I think of the Tom Hanks scene in the 0:33:46.520 --> 0:33:49.000 New Elvis movie of like you know, zoom into his face, 0:33:49.040 --> 0:33:55.920 he's like he's white in like just realization that like 0:33:56.200 --> 0:33:59.040 Elvis is not a black guy. You talk about sort 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:01.800 of like what was the goal of these artists during 0:34:01.800 --> 0:34:04.360 that time, and you know, these white person trying to. 0:34:04.400 --> 0:34:08.360 Sound black quote unquote or you know, taken from black artists. 0:34:08.440 --> 0:34:09.240 You know, it's funny. 0:34:09.480 --> 0:34:13.400 Authenticity is a slippery thing to define, but it's a 0:34:13.520 --> 0:34:16.719 quality that often people seek out in popular music. But 0:34:16.800 --> 0:34:19.239 it's not the only quality that people seek out in 0:34:19.280 --> 0:34:23.120 popular music. You might you might pair authenticity with something 0:34:23.200 --> 0:34:26.239 more like relatability. Right, So you hear a voice and 0:34:26.280 --> 0:34:29.400 you're like, oh, this person's kind of normal, this person's 0:34:29.480 --> 0:34:31.080 kind of like me, and right, maybe. 0:34:30.840 --> 0:34:32.879 The opposite of that is like whoa this. 0:34:32.800 --> 0:34:35.359 Person comes really comes from the real, whatever the real 0:34:35.440 --> 0:34:38.120 is supposed to be, right, this person represents a very 0:34:38.120 --> 0:34:41.240 different world from my world. And so yes, there's certainly 0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:45.520 moments in American music where, you know, in the Elvis example, 0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:48.840 maybe to listeners in that moment, a certain kind of 0:34:48.920 --> 0:35:00.799 rhythm and blues is associated with black singers, like there 0:35:00.840 --> 0:35:03.360 was something exciting about a singer who could get close 0:35:03.400 --> 0:35:05.440 to that. You know, you see maybe some of that 0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:08.000 with Eminem, who Eminem was. 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:09.400 Always very careful. 0:35:09.520 --> 0:35:14.200 I think that he's not he's not doing anything where 0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:17.239 it sounds like putting on a show exactly, But he's 0:35:17.280 --> 0:35:21.719 also not necessarily talking the way a white kid from 0:35:21.800 --> 0:35:22.520 Detroit who. 0:35:22.440 --> 0:35:24.080 Wasn't a rapper might talk. 0:35:24.600 --> 0:35:27.400 And like there's certain things he can say and can't say, 0:35:27.480 --> 0:35:29.920 and like, you know, he could say yo, and it 0:35:29.960 --> 0:35:32.279 doesn't sound that weird, but there's maybe other things that 0:35:32.320 --> 0:35:34.239 he would say that he would sound as if he 0:35:34.360 --> 0:35:38.360 was leaning into it a little too much. And so yeah, obviously, 0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:41.200 at various points there's this moment in Elvis's career where 0:35:41.719 --> 0:35:45.800 being perceived as like maybe he's black could be helpful. 0:35:46.680 --> 0:35:50.480 But obviously, given the demographics of America, it's more often 0:35:50.520 --> 0:35:53.560 helpful to be perceived as part of the majority group. 0:35:53.600 --> 0:35:57.200 And it's not a coincidence that Elvis, a white guy, 0:35:57.320 --> 0:35:59.760 ends up selling a lot, or that Eminem a white 0:35:59.760 --> 0:36:02.359 guy ends up selling a lot. And so I think, 0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:05.239 and that's something that the musicians have to have to 0:36:05.239 --> 0:36:08.160 figure out, right, like with my voice, like what am 0:36:08.200 --> 0:36:11.840 I signaling to people? And often there's a move I 0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:14.000 think you often see a move early if we're talking 0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:16.640 about this particular thing of like white artists who might 0:36:16.680 --> 0:36:20.680 be perceived vocally as black. Maybe that's something that happens 0:36:20.719 --> 0:36:24.359 a little more early in the career. And sometimes there's 0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:28.200 a move later in the career toward music that seems 0:36:28.400 --> 0:36:32.720 more authentic or race appropriate or something. You know, there's 0:36:32.760 --> 0:36:35.200 some It's funny, you know if you think about like 0:36:35.239 --> 0:36:38.799 the trajectory of kid rock, where he starts his career. 0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:40.560 Really wanting to be part of this hip hop. 0:36:40.440 --> 0:36:43.160 Scene, sway to the groove that no want chop. 0:36:43.280 --> 0:36:45.840 Sam moved to the kid in Black Breath bos not 0:36:45.920 --> 0:36:48.279 a cheap heart job, but a rock the second So 0:36:48.520 --> 0:36:50.400 fuck coryon Man, Johnny Dell. 0:36:50.480 --> 0:36:53.680 Then let's go, and then eventually finds his own identity, 0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:57.640 which is very much a reclamation of his roots and 0:36:57.719 --> 0:37:01.760 the music his father listened to and living way outside 0:37:01.800 --> 0:37:05.160 of the city in Detroit and literally going to Hank 0:37:05.160 --> 0:37:06.480 Williams Junior shows with his. 0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:11.960 Dad, living my life and a slow hell different girl 0:37:12.080 --> 0:37:19.719 every night at the hotel, I Hain't Seen the Sunshine 0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:23.840 and three Damn Day, and there. 0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:26.480 Is this this idea of like, well, yeah, over time 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:28.640 you return to what you quote unquote really are. 0:37:28.960 --> 0:37:32.360 Yeah, Post Malone another great example of this, starting with 0:37:32.400 --> 0:37:33.560 White iverson. 0:37:33.360 --> 0:37:40.040 Yeah, Saucy, I'm Sargon, I'm swaggon. 0:37:41.120 --> 0:37:43.759 Too, like fully making country music now. 0:37:44.080 --> 0:37:48.880 The Last Cars, Last Chancers, ninety five truck Is Dancers, 0:37:49.120 --> 0:37:51.280 a couple of trucks, an chin. 0:37:51.520 --> 0:37:53.880 And you know, I would I imagine and hope he's 0:37:53.920 --> 0:37:55.759 not done yet. I hope we get a metalcore record 0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:59.520 from him. I know he enjoys, uh that kind of 0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:02.560 music is well. I think sometimes we forget what it 0:38:02.680 --> 0:38:04.640 was like for us when we were teenagers and trying 0:38:04.680 --> 0:38:07.000 to figure out, like, well, I want to be cool. 0:38:07.560 --> 0:38:09.640 What does it sound like if I'm cool? Like if 0:38:09.640 --> 0:38:11.160 I use this word, if I use that word. 0:38:11.320 --> 0:38:14.279 And sometimes in this context we even talk about appropriation, 0:38:15.000 --> 0:38:18.719 which I think sometimes I think sometimes there's more of 0:38:18.760 --> 0:38:21.239 it than we realize. Like there are things that we 0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:25.680 learn and literally hear from birth, from our parents, but 0:38:26.000 --> 0:38:28.320 most of the rest of our lives is things that 0:38:28.440 --> 0:38:31.280 we pick up from our friends, yes, or from someone else, 0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:33.800 or like, yeah, you didn't come out of the womb. 0:38:34.200 --> 0:38:36.560 No matter what race you are, you maybe didn't come 0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:39.799 out of the womb like hip hop, or you didn't 0:38:39.840 --> 0:38:42.920 come out of the womb country, you know. And so 0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:46.120 there is a certain idea of like we're forming our 0:38:46.239 --> 0:38:49.520 identity based on, you know, what sort of feels right. 0:38:49.680 --> 0:38:52.279 And as I said, with musicians, with people, it's the 0:38:52.320 --> 0:38:55.360 same way where sometimes it can feel corny. We probably 0:38:55.400 --> 0:38:58.040 all know people that are like trying a little too hard, 0:38:58.480 --> 0:39:00.600 and it doesn't necessarily mean that they're trying too hard 0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:03.560 in a way that transgresses a racial boundary. Right, it 0:39:03.600 --> 0:39:05.759 could be like a white person trying too hard with 0:39:05.960 --> 0:39:08.640 like a certain identity that we think of as white. Yeah, 0:39:09.680 --> 0:39:12.160 and so yes, the idea of like trying a little 0:39:12.200 --> 0:39:15.600 bit but not too hard is something that musicians definitely do. 0:39:15.800 --> 0:39:16.800 And yes, so you hear that. 0:39:17.239 --> 0:39:21.120 You hear that with accents, And again, accents are an 0:39:21.160 --> 0:39:25.240 important musical tool which you're making pop music with your voice, 0:39:25.560 --> 0:39:29.480 and it's you know, I think you've seen that, especially 0:39:29.520 --> 0:39:33.000 with hip hop, where when hip hop goes international it 0:39:33.120 --> 0:39:35.640 sounds a little different, Like Polish hip hop sounds a 0:39:35.680 --> 0:39:38.239 little different because the rapping is in Polish and so 0:39:38.800 --> 0:39:41.279 you get different rhythms. You hear that in certainly in 0:39:41.320 --> 0:39:44.880 the UK, and the rhythms of like Black English speech 0:39:45.480 --> 0:39:48.320 you know, gives you grime and gives you UK drill 0:39:48.760 --> 0:39:51.640 and like literally the beats are different and the way 0:39:51.680 --> 0:39:54.160 they ride the beats, right, you have rappers being more 0:39:54.360 --> 0:39:55.880 in the front of the beat rather than riding the 0:39:55.920 --> 0:39:58.200 back of the beat. And so yeah, you hear that 0:39:58.600 --> 0:40:01.120 naturally from the speech patterns and the fact that the 0:40:01.400 --> 0:40:05.000 Caribbean influence in West African influence in the UK influences 0:40:05.080 --> 0:40:09.520 the Black British accent, but also means that some of 0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:13.000 the hip hop has closer relationships to afrobeats at the 0:40:13.040 --> 0:40:15.840 dance hall reggae because that's also in the vocals. 0:40:16.000 --> 0:40:18.040 How could you mean that you'll be empty Tommy, then 0:40:18.560 --> 0:40:24.520 breast listen, look baby done your back and then dipen 0:40:24.600 --> 0:40:27.440 your back and then diga back and then more back 0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:28.040 in one minute. 0:40:32.200 --> 0:40:34.000 I feel like we're currently in the era of hip 0:40:34.040 --> 0:40:40.240 hop that is like, at least in the US, well mainstream. 0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:41.520 About to make a big claim. I want to say 0:40:41.520 --> 0:40:42.200 a big claim. 0:40:42.480 --> 0:40:43.799 Mainstream hip hop. 0:40:44.160 --> 0:40:46.440 It it has become a bit flattened in terms of 0:40:46.920 --> 0:40:50.400 regional sounds. I think there are more underground stuff that 0:40:50.680 --> 0:40:54.120 definitely you know, you took about Detroit, and there's definitely 0:40:54.200 --> 0:40:57.400 some more interesting stuff happening that's not in the mainstream. 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:01.320 But there was a time when certain radio stations wouldn't 0:41:01.320 --> 0:41:04.200 play music from different areas, right, so New York radio 0:41:04.239 --> 0:41:07.120 stations would only play quote unquote New York artists. Think 0:41:07.160 --> 0:41:11.680 about this with outcast in the nineties being booed at 0:41:11.719 --> 0:41:12.400 the Source Awards. 0:41:14.680 --> 0:41:16.600 So here's some background for you who are not hip 0:41:16.640 --> 0:41:17.160 hop heads. 0:41:17.280 --> 0:41:21.480 In nineteen ninety five, Source Magazine is this huge New 0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:25.000 York based hip hop magazine. They have an award show 0:41:25.239 --> 0:41:29.160 based out of New York and Outcasts. The Atlanta Group 0:41:29.360 --> 0:41:31.279 wins for best New Artists and. 0:41:31.320 --> 0:41:35.240 The winner and ladies help me out Outcast. 0:41:38.200 --> 0:41:40.560 And the New York crowd boost them because at the time, 0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:44.560 New Yorkers aren't interested in hearing music from down South, 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:48.680 for even in the West Coast. And Andre three thousand, 0:41:48.760 --> 0:41:52.600 who's a member of Outcasts, says this infamous line, but 0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:53.800 it's like this, though. 0:41:54.160 --> 0:41:58.959 I'm tied of folks, you know what I'm saying, Clothed. 0:41:58.680 --> 0:42:00.320 Minded folks, you know what I'm saying. We got a 0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:01.800 demo table on them by the want to hear. But 0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:03.520 it's like that the South got something to say. That's 0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:04.239 all I got to say. 0:42:05.000 --> 0:42:07.560 New York radio stations would not play out Cast because 0:42:07.840 --> 0:42:11.160 they weren't seen as you know, being cool to New Yorkers. 0:42:11.239 --> 0:42:12.840 But also this had a lot to do with the 0:42:12.960 --> 0:42:17.839 economy and the technical infrastructure. Like people used to buy 0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:22.239 their records at stores, so there were distributors that would 0:42:22.280 --> 0:42:25.560 distribute records in you know, Southwest wholesale or whatever the 0:42:25.600 --> 0:42:28.879 big distributors were, especially in the nineties, and you would 0:42:28.960 --> 0:42:32.399 build your audience through record stores, through shows, and through 0:42:32.520 --> 0:42:35.959 terrestrial radio stations. So you'd get hot in your town 0:42:36.400 --> 0:42:38.839 and then you'd try to expand outward from your town, 0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:43.120 and literally, in a pre internet age, you're just listening 0:42:43.160 --> 0:42:45.479 to a different radio station in New York than someone 0:42:45.640 --> 0:42:45.799 is in. 0:42:45.800 --> 0:42:48.400 Houston, or in Atlanta or in Orlando. 0:42:48.960 --> 0:42:51.400 And so yeah, it was just like it was literally 0:42:51.440 --> 0:42:55.320 different radio stations, different record stores, different compact discs, and 0:42:55.400 --> 0:42:58.239 also different people. So you know that guy you knew 0:42:58.239 --> 0:43:00.839 from high school that became a rapper, it's gonna sound 0:43:00.960 --> 0:43:03.960 very different if you're in the Bay Area versus if 0:43:03.960 --> 0:43:06.960 you're in Philadelphia. So yeah, like everything, like a lot 0:43:07.000 --> 0:43:10.759 of things in American life, it was very fragmented, like 0:43:10.840 --> 0:43:11.040 it was. 0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:12.399 It's I think it's hard. 0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:14.880 I think it's probably hard for younger people to even understand, 0:43:15.000 --> 0:43:18.880 Like it was hard to get those albums, Like I 0:43:18.920 --> 0:43:21.720 would mail order those albums because there's all this crazy 0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:24.279 down South stuff happening and we're not getting it in 0:43:24.360 --> 0:43:24.759 New York. 0:43:25.160 --> 0:43:25.200 No. 0:43:25.480 --> 0:43:29.440 So, yes, there was a time when the hip hop 0:43:29.520 --> 0:43:32.360 world was a lot more fragmented. And you know, obviously 0:43:32.440 --> 0:43:35.160 at the time the artists it was cool that they 0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:36.880 could sort of make a living, but they were it 0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:38.960 was frustrating to the artists, right, They're like, how come 0:43:39.040 --> 0:43:42.360 how do I break through? And so, yeah, there was 0:43:42.480 --> 0:43:45.239 this idea of fragmentation. And because hip hop is so 0:43:45.560 --> 0:43:50.560 closely based on the rhythms of spoken language, you get 0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:55.880 like different beat patterns based on different on different accents 0:43:56.000 --> 0:43:59.040 and different slang and different vocabulary, and so yeah, you 0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:02.560 get this incredible diversity where the music sounds different based 0:44:02.600 --> 0:44:04.800 on the local slang and the local speech patterns. 0:44:05.040 --> 0:44:08.920 Is that diversity in the sounds of a genre unique 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:12.279 to hip hop? For such a young genre, you would 0:44:12.320 --> 0:44:14.839 imagine that everything would sound kind of similar and before 0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:18.759 it started to break out, But in other genres as 0:44:18.840 --> 0:44:21.520 they kind of first were formed, did you get that 0:44:21.760 --> 0:44:22.799 level of fragmentation. 0:44:23.360 --> 0:44:28.040 I think hip hop is really good at taking like 0:44:29.000 --> 0:44:32.040 vernacular culture and turning it into music, right, So you 0:44:32.160 --> 0:44:36.160 have this incredible diversity underneath, which is maybe a little 0:44:36.200 --> 0:44:38.480 bit different if you have like a guitar bassed genre 0:44:38.680 --> 0:44:41.040 where everyone's got to learn guitar, and then yeah, the 0:44:41.120 --> 0:44:43.600 licks might be a little different and these people play 0:44:43.640 --> 0:44:47.880 the stratocaster and these people play the telecaster, like and 0:44:48.160 --> 0:44:50.160 you do hear some diversity, But yes, I. 0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:50.680 Think hip hop. 0:44:50.800 --> 0:44:53.160 One of the great strengths of hip hop was that 0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:57.719 there was this incredible untapped linguistic richness in all these 0:44:57.760 --> 0:45:02.240 different communities, where for hip hop it was just maybe 0:45:02.320 --> 0:45:04.680 guys who would be just like telling stories on the 0:45:04.760 --> 0:45:07.040 corner and everyone in the neighborhood would be like, Yeah, 0:45:07.080 --> 0:45:10.040 that guy's really funny, or like they would just gather 0:45:10.239 --> 0:45:12.760 that guy's a good storyteller, or that guy's got good jokes, 0:45:13.160 --> 0:45:15.520 but it didn't have a way to travel outside the neighborhood. 0:45:15.600 --> 0:45:17.719 So so one of the things that hip hop did 0:45:17.800 --> 0:45:20.359 really well was it took this thing that felt really 0:45:20.480 --> 0:45:24.520 local and and blew it up. And I think even 0:45:24.640 --> 0:45:27.480 now a lot of the best hip hop sounds really local. 0:45:27.560 --> 0:45:30.560 There's something there's something really seductive about the idea of like, oh, 0:45:30.640 --> 0:45:33.640 I'm in this person's world and you know, this is 0:45:33.719 --> 0:45:36.600 what it's like when you're like with NBA Young. 0:45:36.480 --> 0:45:39.920 Boy and his crew, and this is the Baton rouge vibe. 0:45:40.040 --> 0:45:41.960 And I can hear that in the music in a 0:45:42.320 --> 0:45:44.840 way that feels really unmediated and and. 0:45:44.960 --> 0:45:56.239 Direct sum trumpsas straight from others. 0:45:56.600 --> 0:45:58.239 Well, I felt like that might have been at the 0:45:58.280 --> 0:46:01.120 core of the whole. I mean the Drake Kendrick or 0:46:01.239 --> 0:46:06.000 he Kendrick makes music that is so personal and intimate sounding, 0:46:06.000 --> 0:46:08.960 whereas Drake and I'm a Drake apologist obviously, but it's 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:11.160 just like, based on the song, it could sound like 0:46:11.200 --> 0:46:13.399 it's from anywhere in the country. And so I think 0:46:13.440 --> 0:46:16.319 there's a level of authenticity in Kendrick's music where it's like, oh, 0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:17.800 this is clearly his life. 0:46:18.160 --> 0:46:21.040 Yeah, although you know it was, It's funny. 0:46:21.080 --> 0:46:23.920 It was kind of later in Kendrick's career that he 0:46:24.120 --> 0:46:27.279 really started to lean into the sounds of LA hip hop, 0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:29.960 you know what I mean, Like the early records when 0:46:29.960 --> 0:46:32.600 he was considered like a little more conscious or something, 0:46:33.960 --> 0:46:34.520 maybe had a. 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:36.920 Little less geographical specificity. 0:46:37.640 --> 0:46:38.359 What if the dream? 0:46:40.560 --> 0:46:41.120 What's the stream? 0:46:41.320 --> 0:46:44.320 And as complicated as the scenes things we match it 0:46:44.440 --> 0:46:46.799 actually happened in real life situations. 0:46:48.719 --> 0:46:49.000 They did. 0:46:49.080 --> 0:46:52.200 He was also looking back to freestyle fellowship and other 0:46:52.440 --> 0:46:55.279 more like underground LA things, and so one of the 0:46:55.400 --> 0:46:58.719 interesting things that happened was that you know, over the 0:46:58.880 --> 0:47:01.840 years and then especially at that like uh not like 0:47:02.000 --> 0:47:06.160 us moment, you got something that felt very specific to 0:47:06.440 --> 0:47:07.239 lay Right. 0:47:07.320 --> 0:47:08.720 Hey, I'm Trippman, I'm slatting. 0:47:08.760 --> 0:47:11.600 I'm like, what's that. 0:47:16.400 --> 0:47:16.560 I got? 0:47:16.640 --> 0:47:19.239 Mustard, He's gonna bring the whole city together, And if 0:47:19.280 --> 0:47:22.120 you're from LA you're like part of Kendrick's crew, And 0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:25.560 that's not exactly the feeling you got. And Drake is 0:47:26.080 --> 0:47:27.960 interesting in a different way, right because he has this 0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:31.640 relationship with Houston and he has like probably one of 0:47:31.680 --> 0:47:34.040 the best ears in the history of hip hop. Yeah, 0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:36.759 like just his knack for being like, oh, there's something 0:47:36.880 --> 0:47:39.719 cool going on halfway around the world, right, I think. 0:47:39.760 --> 0:47:42.680 I think One Dance by Drake is like one of 0:47:42.760 --> 0:47:47.400 those songs that's sort of like so prescient, so influential, Right, I. 0:47:47.560 --> 0:47:52.840 Need one got out of scene mind one more time, idol, 0:47:53.440 --> 0:47:55.480 how if I was taking old. 0:48:00.440 --> 0:48:03.920 Kiss think about like the whole afrobeats movement that comes 0:48:04.280 --> 0:48:06.279 after the success of One Dance and the fact that 0:48:06.360 --> 0:48:09.160 Drake was able to hear Oh this African thing and 0:48:09.239 --> 0:48:10.960 it's kind of got a Caribbean feel, which we have 0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:15.000 in Canada, but it's also this interesting other UK London 0:48:15.120 --> 0:48:19.760 legos thing that's happening. So yes, I think, and the idea, 0:48:20.360 --> 0:48:22.600 and you know at various times. You know, there's obviously 0:48:22.680 --> 0:48:25.600 some videos where you hear Drake talking and he's got 0:48:25.680 --> 0:48:27.560 like a thick Canadian accent. 0:48:27.680 --> 0:48:30.759 You're like, oh, right, the whole world, look around, look 0:48:30.800 --> 0:48:33.680 around you, look at this. We created this. This didn't 0:48:33.680 --> 0:48:35.680 exist before we were here. Look around at the square. 0:48:35.719 --> 0:48:37.279 I promised you right now we did this. 0:48:37.360 --> 0:48:38.520 Doesn't matter what anybody says. 0:48:38.560 --> 0:48:39.280 They could say it's. 0:48:39.120 --> 0:48:41.640 Disrespectful, they could say it's dis and that everybody. 0:48:41.680 --> 0:48:44.440 But part of his skill was this thing that traditionally 0:48:44.520 --> 0:48:46.719 rappers weren't supposed to do, which was he can kind 0:48:46.760 --> 0:48:49.040 of like move around and he can borrow sounds from 0:48:49.080 --> 0:48:51.400 different regions. And you know, in the old days that 0:48:51.520 --> 0:48:55.759 might have seemed inauthentic. But you know, Drake's success it 0:48:55.880 --> 0:48:58.240 sort of made hip hop fans think a little differently 0:48:58.320 --> 0:48:59.400 about authenticity. 0:48:59.480 --> 0:49:01.200 Right, He's like, yeah, wearing a sweater, Like, so. 0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:02.640 What I'm gonna say. 0:49:02.640 --> 0:49:04.320 It feels like the slider has changed now, Right, you 0:49:04.360 --> 0:49:06.680 were talking about these two sort of like knobs. There 0:49:06.800 --> 0:49:09.080 is like does it sound good? And is it quote 0:49:09.120 --> 0:49:11.439 unquote authentic? And I feel like now in hip hop 0:49:12.040 --> 0:49:14.200 it's really like does it sound good. People don't really 0:49:14.280 --> 0:49:18.200 care about authenticity that much. Authenticity as long as the 0:49:18.239 --> 0:49:20.160 person feels like it's like it's cool. 0:49:20.480 --> 0:49:22.920 But authenticity can mean so many different things, right. It 0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:25.880 can mean like do you have credibility in your neighborhood? 0:49:26.120 --> 0:49:28.640 Like it might literally in hip hop traditionally, one thing 0:49:28.680 --> 0:49:30.920 it's meant is like can you put on your jewelry 0:49:30.960 --> 0:49:33.879 and walk down the street? Right, that's a kind of authenticity, 0:49:34.120 --> 0:49:37.320 But obviously another kind of authenticity is like does this 0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:38.960 music reflect who you really are? 0:49:39.320 --> 0:49:40.200 Does this feel like you? 0:49:40.320 --> 0:49:40.360 Do? 0:49:40.440 --> 0:49:41.920 We feel like we're getting to know you? 0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:45.279 And that's maybe a more traditional pop kind of authenticity, 0:49:45.320 --> 0:49:48.560 where you're communicating through the music, and what people want 0:49:48.719 --> 0:49:50.680 is a sense that they can make a kind of 0:49:50.760 --> 0:49:54.399 personal connection with you, and that it's less about necessarily 0:49:54.560 --> 0:49:57.239 like what's your reputation in the neighborhood? And it's more like, 0:49:57.800 --> 0:50:01.280 does this highly artificial thing you're doing into a microphone 0:50:01.640 --> 0:50:04.640 somehow feel honest? And I think that kind of that's 0:50:04.640 --> 0:50:08.080 a kind of authenticity too, and that's really important, right, 0:50:08.120 --> 0:50:10.759 And a kid gets that from Tyler the Creator and 0:50:10.840 --> 0:50:12.959 it has nothing to do with like, oh, is Tyler 0:50:13.080 --> 0:50:15.040 the Creator a tough guy or not, They're like, you know, 0:50:15.160 --> 0:50:18.440 I'm getting to know this person and his worldview and 0:50:18.680 --> 0:50:21.640 he doesn't seem like anyone else, and I'm really getting 0:50:21.640 --> 0:50:22.080 a sense. 0:50:21.960 --> 0:50:24.440 This point of view. This is not some guy in 0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:26.439 an office telling him to make this type of music. 0:50:26.480 --> 0:50:28.640 But I think also we've kind of like we sort 0:50:28.640 --> 0:50:31.640 of hinted at but not really talked about one of 0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:33.160 the things that I think a lot of people think 0:50:33.200 --> 0:50:36.880 about when it comes to accents, which is diversity and 0:50:36.960 --> 0:50:39.680 geographical diversity. And this idea that a lot of people 0:50:39.800 --> 0:50:42.920 have that we're so much more connected now we can 0:50:43.000 --> 0:50:46.799 hear each other now, is some of that geographic diversity 0:50:47.200 --> 0:50:51.040 maybe going away? And it's interesting when you look at 0:50:51.080 --> 0:50:54.719 the studies of this, there is some sign of that, 0:50:55.440 --> 0:50:57.800 but the asterisk, as far as I can tell, is 0:50:57.920 --> 0:51:02.600 that that's happening more within races than between races. There 0:51:02.680 --> 0:51:05.080 is some there's some research to suggest that black and 0:51:05.200 --> 0:51:08.960 white speech patterns are actually getting further apart, but that 0:51:09.120 --> 0:51:12.280 within white speech patterns in America, some of the regional 0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:16.600 variety is disappearing, right like the classic New York accent, 0:51:16.719 --> 0:51:20.239 maybe even the classic Boston accent. And then within black 0:51:20.280 --> 0:51:24.560 speech patterns, some of that geographic diversity is disappearing, but 0:51:24.680 --> 0:51:27.399 that black and white are diverging, and there would also 0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:30.239 be that would be confounded also by class. A lot 0:51:30.280 --> 0:51:33.560 of times you have more regional variation among working class people, 0:51:34.080 --> 0:51:36.000 and if there's more if a higher percentage of black 0:51:36.000 --> 0:51:38.560 people are working class than white people, then you would 0:51:38.719 --> 0:51:43.120 you would expect more speech diversity among black people in 0:51:43.239 --> 0:51:46.000 the US to begin with than white people. And so 0:51:46.520 --> 0:51:49.920 but even when you think about culture, like the ways 0:51:50.000 --> 0:51:53.080 in which the Internet in some ways does have a 0:51:53.160 --> 0:51:56.680 leveling effect, but it also enables the creation of these 0:51:56.800 --> 0:52:02.080 weird niches and communities, and you know, whatever, whatever you 0:52:02.120 --> 0:52:04.320 can think of, there's a community devoted to it and 0:52:04.400 --> 0:52:07.280 probably a sub community of people who find it sexually arousing, 0:52:07.440 --> 0:52:11.040 right like, And so the idea that people can find 0:52:11.120 --> 0:52:14.680 these groups the internet feels often and social media feels 0:52:14.719 --> 0:52:17.400 like it's doing both at once. It's kind of connecting everyone, 0:52:17.680 --> 0:52:20.640 but it's also enabling the creation of these communities. And 0:52:20.760 --> 0:52:24.000 so that's something that we're kind of starting only really 0:52:24.000 --> 0:52:27.640 starting to figure out, is like how much regional variety 0:52:27.760 --> 0:52:30.040 is there going to be in accents in ten years, 0:52:30.120 --> 0:52:32.520 in twenty years, And you know, this is just talking 0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:35.160 about English in America. Yeah, right, if you look at 0:52:35.280 --> 0:52:37.480 if you look at other countries, not just in the UK, 0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:39.239 where some of the same stuff is happening, some of 0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:42.320 the regional variety is maybe declining a little bit. But 0:52:42.440 --> 0:52:45.719 then of course you also have British accents that are 0:52:45.760 --> 0:52:50.160 influenced by African languages, by Indian languages, and then you 0:52:50.320 --> 0:52:53.920 have these kind of like international versions of English that 0:52:54.040 --> 0:52:56.560 are emerging because you have so many people using English 0:52:56.600 --> 0:52:59.800 to communicate for whom maybe that's not their native language. 0:53:00.040 --> 0:53:02.280 So you have these different some of them are creoles 0:53:02.320 --> 0:53:03.960 and some of them are maybe not quite creoles. 0:53:04.280 --> 0:53:06.880 So you have that, and then you have that happening 0:53:06.960 --> 0:53:07.920 with other languages. 0:53:08.040 --> 0:53:11.719 Right, You're having you think about the different accents within 0:53:11.840 --> 0:53:15.240 Spanish speakers in the Americas, and you know these moments 0:53:15.280 --> 0:53:17.839 where an English speaker might not notice of like, oh 0:53:18.239 --> 0:53:20.960 that's bad Bunny doing kind of a Dominican accent to 0:53:21.120 --> 0:53:24.439 like tip his cap to dembo music, you know, from 0:53:24.640 --> 0:53:31.680 from the home of reggaetone or something. I think we 0:53:31.800 --> 0:53:35.239 could be having this same conversation in Spanish with people 0:53:35.280 --> 0:53:37.920 talking about like how come everyone who does reggaetone has 0:53:38.000 --> 0:53:40.120 to affront like they're from Puerto Rico even when they're not. 0:53:46.120 --> 0:53:50.640 I think different accents are gonna continue to be linked 0:53:50.719 --> 0:53:53.440 to different genres, right, you think about reggae, and like 0:53:54.760 --> 0:53:57.279 just about anyone who starts singing reggae, whether it's something 0:53:57.320 --> 0:54:00.440 more rootsy or more dance hall, is gonna do something 0:54:00.520 --> 0:54:02.399 that's like a little bit of an accent. Now you're 0:54:02.400 --> 0:54:04.400 gonna hear a little even if you're Jason Moraz or 0:54:04.440 --> 0:54:05.760 something before the cool. 0:54:05.600 --> 0:54:06.359 Doune run out. 0:54:06.440 --> 0:54:09.080 I'll be giving it my bestness and not that's going 0:54:09.120 --> 0:54:12.279 to stop me, but divine into invention. I reckon it's 0:54:12.320 --> 0:54:18.799 again matter to win some more, learn somebody. 0:54:18.600 --> 0:54:20.520 Right because those are the rhythms in the music, So 0:54:20.920 --> 0:54:22.800 that's gonna bring out the rhythms in the speech. So 0:54:22.880 --> 0:54:24.960 I think that that's something that I think that that's 0:54:25.000 --> 0:54:28.719 something that's definitely gonna continue and that you hear again, 0:54:28.840 --> 0:54:30.680 not just in country, not just you know, you hear 0:54:30.760 --> 0:54:32.400 that in you know, if you're listening to Blink one 0:54:32.480 --> 0:54:35.200 eight two and you're like, is that a calid like 0:54:35.719 --> 0:54:38.360 Tom's voice? Is that a California version of an English 0:54:38.480 --> 0:54:39.640 version of an American accent. 0:54:40.120 --> 0:54:42.239 Let's talk a little bit about we've touched on it 0:54:42.920 --> 0:54:45.319 and to all these other genres, but just like pop 0:54:45.440 --> 0:54:48.239 music more generally, you know, talking about like a Harry 0:54:48.320 --> 0:54:52.400 Styles or Adele and this idea of you know, these 0:54:52.560 --> 0:54:56.880 UK artists singing in you know, a quote unquote American accent. 0:54:57.520 --> 0:54:59.480 Would you attribute that to like you're saying, this is 0:54:59.600 --> 0:55:02.799 just like we associate with, you know, quote unquote pop 0:55:02.920 --> 0:55:05.520 music and how it should sound like or do you 0:55:05.600 --> 0:55:09.439 think it's a purposeful like you know, Adele's talking voice 0:55:09.520 --> 0:55:12.719 is very different than her singing voice. Yeah, I don't 0:55:12.800 --> 0:55:14.960 know that. Maybe she would be as big if she's 0:55:14.960 --> 0:55:16.799 singing in her you know, talking voice. 0:55:16.800 --> 0:55:17.520 I would love to hear it. 0:55:17.640 --> 0:55:19.399 I would love to hear it too, but I don't 0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:21.200 know if it would have as wide of an appeal. 0:55:21.400 --> 0:55:23.960 Traditionally, hip hop is unusual, right because hip hop there 0:55:24.000 --> 0:55:26.680 really is the expectation that the talking voice and the 0:55:26.760 --> 0:55:27.319 rapping voice. 0:55:27.400 --> 0:55:29.040 Rapp it is a little closer to talking, so it's 0:55:29.080 --> 0:55:29.520 gonna match. 0:55:29.680 --> 0:55:32.400 Yeah, singing is always going to be like it's not 0:55:32.440 --> 0:55:35.919 necessarily opera where like you open your mouth a big voice, 0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:37.960 you're singing in Italian it's a whole different thing. 0:55:38.280 --> 0:55:40.680 But there is more of a separation between singing a 0:55:40.760 --> 0:55:44.080 song stretching out the words yeah, and doing an interview. 0:55:44.239 --> 0:55:45.600 And so and yeah. 0:55:45.680 --> 0:55:48.839 I think, you know, Adele is making music that's influenced 0:55:49.160 --> 0:55:54.160 by a particular tradition, whether it's you know, Whitney Houston 0:55:54.280 --> 0:55:57.120 or whoever her influence is, and that's an American tradition, 0:55:57.239 --> 0:56:00.480 it's partly a Black American tradition, and so you're hearing 0:56:00.560 --> 0:56:02.799 that in her voice. You know, Harry Styles is kind 0:56:02.800 --> 0:56:05.120 of interesting because like you're hearing some of the American 0:56:05.200 --> 0:56:08.200 boy bands, but you're also hearing, you know, some beatles. 0:56:08.640 --> 0:56:11.480 Sweet Creature. 0:56:13.160 --> 0:56:18.000 Had another talk about where it's going on, but weird 0:56:19.280 --> 0:56:23.240 still young some of that, some of that Paul McCartney 0:56:23.280 --> 0:56:25.680 and some of that stuff, which is you know, influenced 0:56:25.680 --> 0:56:28.800 by America but routed through the UK. So yeah, I 0:56:28.880 --> 0:56:33.840 think that you're definitely again, for most of these singers, 0:56:33.880 --> 0:56:35.799 I think it's pretty intuitive, right. 0:56:35.920 --> 0:56:37.600 It's not like they have a plan. 0:56:37.719 --> 0:56:39.640 It's like they go into the studio and they start 0:56:39.680 --> 0:56:41.360 feeling it, and they start vibing and they're listening to 0:56:41.400 --> 0:56:44.640 their favorite records and what comes out sounds. 0:56:44.320 --> 0:56:46.880 A little bit like their version of their favorite records. 0:56:47.600 --> 0:56:49.439 Like I said, I think because I love hip hop, 0:56:50.000 --> 0:56:54.200 I'm a sucker for vernacular and for local languages and 0:56:54.360 --> 0:56:57.759 for music where the rhythms are different because of the 0:56:57.840 --> 0:57:00.799 local language. Right. But again, one thing that popular music 0:57:00.920 --> 0:57:04.200 does is find what used to be called the lowest 0:57:04.200 --> 0:57:06.640 common denominator, which used to always be said with a sneer. 0:57:06.680 --> 0:57:08.360 And I never understood why. I'm like, you mean, the 0:57:08.440 --> 0:57:11.120 thing that appeals to the most people. Yeah, like, And 0:57:11.280 --> 0:57:13.560 so often that means doing something that's a little bit 0:57:13.680 --> 0:57:18.760 less peculiar and feels a little bit more maybe neutral, 0:57:19.240 --> 0:57:22.520 so that when you're listening to Adele, whether you're in 0:57:22.560 --> 0:57:25.560 America or India, or you know, whether you're in your 0:57:25.640 --> 0:57:28.960 Yugoslavia or Indonesia, like you're kind of hearing the song 0:57:29.040 --> 0:57:31.760 and you're not thinking too much about her specific neighborhood. 0:57:31.840 --> 0:57:33.880 Mm hmm. So we say, in this case, like the 0:57:33.920 --> 0:57:35.440 American accent is the neutral? 0:57:36.880 --> 0:57:39.360 Yeah, yes, it feels a little neutral. And you know, 0:57:39.520 --> 0:57:44.480 obviously in the UK, where the discourse about accent and 0:57:44.600 --> 0:57:48.400 class is a lot more sophisticated than here, and so 0:57:48.520 --> 0:57:52.800 you have all these fights about BBC and received pronunciation 0:57:53.520 --> 0:57:56.040 and the idea of like, you know, the Queen's English, Yeah, 0:57:56.680 --> 0:57:59.720 the King's English, And you know, the idea that certain 0:57:59.760 --> 0:58:02.640 acts sense are related to class, and that if you're 0:58:02.720 --> 0:58:04.919 putting that on that could be embarrassing, the same way 0:58:05.040 --> 0:58:09.040 we might consider certain racial accent transgressions to be embarrassing. 0:58:09.280 --> 0:58:11.800 And I think also pop music is so powerful and 0:58:12.000 --> 0:58:15.120 seeps into our lives that a big enough song, a 0:58:15.120 --> 0:58:17.880 big enough artist can change what we think of as 0:58:17.960 --> 0:58:21.640 the normal accent. You know, you think about the way 0:58:22.560 --> 0:58:26.880 that moment in the nineteen eighties where people discovered so 0:58:27.040 --> 0:58:29.320 called Valley girls speech patterns so like to. 0:58:29.360 --> 0:58:31.920 Guarante it looks like Salawan placing it and I want 0:58:32.040 --> 0:58:33.160 like to get my tarnils done. 0:58:33.200 --> 0:58:33.920 I'm old lady like. 0:58:34.000 --> 0:58:37.080 His Oh my god, your tarnails were like so broady, 0:58:37.160 --> 0:58:37.480 it was like. 0:58:37.880 --> 0:58:40.680 And like that that sort of makes its way into 0:58:40.800 --> 0:58:43.560 popular music, and you know, by the time you hear 0:58:43.680 --> 0:58:48.320 Katie Perry singing California Girls, you're maybe hearing an. 0:58:48.240 --> 0:58:48.800 Echo of that. 0:58:53.160 --> 0:58:55.040 Crazy speaking. 0:58:56.800 --> 0:58:59.840 And again, part of the fun of pop music is 0:59:00.120 --> 0:59:06.800 make believe. Whether we're listening to like some drill track 0:59:07.120 --> 0:59:07.720 or we're listening to. 0:59:07.760 --> 0:59:09.040 Like a main mainstream pop song. 0:59:09.160 --> 0:59:10.600 Part of the fun of it is like you can 0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:13.400 learn the lyrics, maybe in the privacy of your own car, 0:59:13.560 --> 0:59:15.800 you can sing along, and you can like be that 0:59:15.960 --> 0:59:17.880 person a little bit. And I think that's something you 0:59:18.000 --> 0:59:19.920 don't have with movies in the same way you can 0:59:20.120 --> 0:59:22.760 you can memorize movie dialogue, but there is something about 0:59:23.040 --> 0:59:27.040 popular music where you can kind of become that person. Yes, 0:59:27.160 --> 0:59:30.280 and sometimes sometimes an accent might seem like a barrier 0:59:30.360 --> 0:59:32.920 to that, but sometimes an accent might be part of 0:59:33.000 --> 0:59:33.320 the fun. 0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:38.920 All Right. That was Kay, writer and critic at The 0:59:39.040 --> 0:59:39.600 New Yorker. 0:59:40.000 --> 0:59:44.000 If you enjoy this conversation, check out his book Major Labels, 0:59:44.560 --> 0:59:48.560 available anywhere purchase books, or if you want to be 0:59:48.640 --> 0:59:50.840 like me, you can rent it at your vocal library. 0:59:51.280 --> 0:59:52.960 Well, now I'm interested which one of you has the 0:59:53.000 --> 0:59:53.760 strongest accent? 0:59:54.400 --> 0:59:57.760 Probably Devin, I would vote Devon. Yeah, wow, I think so. 0:59:58.080 --> 1:00:00.240 This is like this American Life episode where they got 1:00:00.280 --> 1:00:01.480 their testosterone tested. 1:00:02.440 --> 1:00:04.919 We got to do that anyway, that's also probably Devan. 1:00:06.240 --> 1:00:07.040 We're no such thing. 1:00:07.320 --> 1:00:24.560 After the break, Okay, we're back many Noah, Devin. All Right, 1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:26.560 so that was Okay, I learned a lot. 1:00:26.920 --> 1:00:28.800 Yeah, really fun conversation. 1:00:28.440 --> 1:00:30.160 I felt like, you know, I was back in school, 1:00:30.520 --> 1:00:30.680 you know. 1:00:31.560 --> 1:00:35.320 Yeah, yeah, like kind of shooting ship at the cafeteria table. 1:00:35.400 --> 1:00:37.160 M hm, going through all of our. 1:00:37.320 --> 1:00:40.959 Through all our favorite artists, artists I don't really know about. 1:00:41.040 --> 1:00:43.080 I got some people we should make a playlist for 1:00:43.120 --> 1:00:43.680 this episode. 1:00:43.800 --> 1:00:46.640 Yeah, people love the playlist a lot of I'm sure 1:00:46.720 --> 1:00:48.680 I'm looking at the clicks and people are listening. 1:00:49.440 --> 1:00:50.560 I'm sure all ten of you. 1:00:50.920 --> 1:00:52.160 Yeah, so scroll down. 1:00:53.720 --> 1:00:56.760 But what I was trying to think about, you know, 1:00:57.360 --> 1:00:59.560 after you know, we've had that conversation, I guess a 1:00:59.600 --> 1:01:02.400 week ago now, and during that time, I've been trying 1:01:02.400 --> 1:01:05.200 to think through are there any examples We talked a 1:01:05.240 --> 1:01:06.880 lot about, you know, people sort of like playing in 1:01:06.920 --> 1:01:10.280 different playgrounds and sort of like just wearing different hats. 1:01:10.840 --> 1:01:12.680 So it was like, who's the last person that we 1:01:12.800 --> 1:01:15.160 know of who's gotten like sort of like negative backlash 1:01:15.280 --> 1:01:18.200 for doing a thing that is like not what we 1:01:18.200 --> 1:01:20.000 would think of as authentic to them. 1:01:20.640 --> 1:01:26.439 Yeah, mister Harlow, mister Jack Hard Now he's wearing kangle hats. 1:01:26.440 --> 1:01:30.240 It's like give so for for those of you who 1:01:30.280 --> 1:01:34.880 are not online, uh, in a way that us three 1:01:34.920 --> 1:01:40.160 are Jack Carlow is a white rapper, grew up outside 1:01:40.160 --> 1:01:46.000 of I'm going to say Louisville, Kentucky's pop brand. 1:01:47.720 --> 1:01:48.000 I got. 1:01:50.200 --> 1:01:53.640 He has decided on this new album that he's put out, 1:01:53.800 --> 1:01:56.360 he got bored of his wrapping, so he wanted to 1:01:56.480 --> 1:01:58.080 make a R and B album. 1:02:05.240 --> 1:02:07.680 We go around Together singers. That all. 1:02:09.640 --> 1:02:12.120 Part of I feel like some of the conversation around 1:02:12.160 --> 1:02:15.280 this album is really about the conversation he had on 1:02:15.760 --> 1:02:18.840 the New York Times Popcasts, which is their music podcast, 1:02:19.480 --> 1:02:21.600 in which they were talking to him about, you know, 1:02:22.000 --> 1:02:23.760 like we talked about earlier in this episode, a lot 1:02:23.840 --> 1:02:26.600 of white artists who come up in some you know, 1:02:26.960 --> 1:02:31.960 like hip hop, often pivot to wider genres. 1:02:31.640 --> 1:02:34.439 John saying, you didn't retreat into a whiter genre. In fact, 1:02:35.080 --> 1:02:41.120 you arguably went into deeper into its deeper into black. 1:02:41.520 --> 1:02:45.320 So is that was that conscious? Absolutely, because you like 1:02:45.520 --> 1:02:47.320 pushing that boundary that line. 1:02:47.520 --> 1:02:49.000 I think I love black music. 1:02:49.200 --> 1:02:52.640 I love the sound amo, I love the sound of 1:02:52.680 --> 1:02:53.200 black music. 1:02:53.560 --> 1:02:55.720 So Jack Carlow puts out this R and B album, 1:02:55.800 --> 1:02:57.880 there's a little bit of backlash. 1:02:58.960 --> 1:03:00.720 And the fact that he's cosplaying. 1:03:01.560 --> 1:03:03.520 It's kind of like a yeah, a little bit of 1:03:03.600 --> 1:03:06.160 a black guy, you know, both in his you know, 1:03:06.360 --> 1:03:08.400 like sort of the promo for the album in terms 1:03:08.400 --> 1:03:09.800 of like is what he's wearing? 1:03:10.000 --> 1:03:12.200 Yeah? Yeah, My issue with it is just is just 1:03:12.280 --> 1:03:14.160 not very good. Like it's kind of just like a 1:03:14.240 --> 1:03:15.280 boring moment. 1:03:15.280 --> 1:03:19.120 It's not interesting he talks about, you know, in his interviews, 1:03:19.160 --> 1:03:21.880 like he didn't do any like voice training or like, 1:03:21.960 --> 1:03:23.240 you know, it's just sort of I'm like, so, what. 1:03:23.280 --> 1:03:25.080 Did you do? They're prepared to make this R and 1:03:25.160 --> 1:03:25.640 B album? 1:03:26.320 --> 1:03:28.280 You know, it's like that's an interesting question. Is the 1:03:28.360 --> 1:03:32.160 only thing stopping you from kind of respecting this for 1:03:32.320 --> 1:03:35.040 lack of a better word, is that it's not good? 1:03:35.520 --> 1:03:37.600 Like what if the music was good and catchy? 1:03:38.000 --> 1:03:39.120 Yeah, I wouldn't mind as much. 1:03:39.040 --> 1:03:41.640 Because I feel like, oh yeah, because I feel like 1:03:42.200 --> 1:03:45.560 I was never a huge head but Mac Miller, Yeah, yeah, 1:03:45.640 --> 1:03:47.160 he kind of moved into more of an R and 1:03:47.240 --> 1:03:48.320 B space too. 1:03:48.400 --> 1:03:49.479 I feel like that's true. 1:03:50.000 --> 1:03:53.480 And granted I don't think he was ever like I mean, 1:03:53.520 --> 1:03:57.400 obviously very successful, but it's successful in a different way 1:03:57.440 --> 1:04:00.880 where I feel like more respect did I guess then, 1:04:01.120 --> 1:04:04.360 Jack Harlowe and I'm wondering why exactly, even though he 1:04:04.440 --> 1:04:06.760 did change his sound, but not in a you didn't 1:04:06.760 --> 1:04:09.200 get like whiter in the you know, not you know, 1:04:09.440 --> 1:04:12.600 in the same generally the same way or direction as 1:04:12.880 --> 1:04:13.400 what we're seeing. 1:04:13.480 --> 1:04:13.600 Now. 1:04:13.840 --> 1:04:17.280 Well, here's a maybe a weird way to end this episode, 1:04:17.800 --> 1:04:19.320 but I think it does speak to this. 1:04:20.880 --> 1:04:21.840 Who just came to mind. 1:04:21.960 --> 1:04:24.680 Also maybe because he's a friend of Drew Ski, but 1:04:24.800 --> 1:04:29.760 Timothy Shallomey right for Mary Supreme. Yeah, he was promoting 1:04:30.360 --> 1:04:33.920 this latest film, this you know, Oscar nominated film, and 1:04:35.080 --> 1:04:37.400 to get people to go see it, he was doing 1:04:37.520 --> 1:04:40.800 a lot of things that people saw as like black coated. 1:04:40.920 --> 1:04:46.960 He was leaning into his you know, wigger uh wigernoess 1:04:48.360 --> 1:04:50.920 you can say. And there was a little bit of 1:04:50.960 --> 1:04:55.000 backlash online of like Timothy, like, you're doing this rapping thing. 1:04:55.360 --> 1:04:58.440 You're you know, you're hanging out with Drew Ski, You're 1:04:58.480 --> 1:05:00.520 being a little too quote unquote black. 1:05:00.840 --> 1:05:02.640 Really, I'm just a fan, you know, I'm a fan 1:05:02.760 --> 1:05:07.120 of of black culture and hip hop and all of it. 1:05:07.280 --> 1:05:10.800 And how could you be, you know, a child of 1:05:10.880 --> 1:05:13.240 American culture without being influenced by it. 1:05:13.280 --> 1:05:15.840 So it's a fine line, and that rubbed people a 1:05:15.920 --> 1:05:17.680 bit the wrong way because they didn't feel like it 1:05:17.800 --> 1:05:20.080 was authentic to who he was, and there was people 1:05:20.120 --> 1:05:22.360 defending him saying, hey, he grew up in New York 1:05:22.520 --> 1:05:25.360 around black people. He's been rapping, you know, he was 1:05:25.440 --> 1:05:27.960 rapping super Base in high school. You know, like he's 1:05:28.040 --> 1:05:30.160 been down with the cause. But there was this conversation 1:05:30.240 --> 1:05:32.920 about like authenticity or are you putting on a costume 1:05:32.960 --> 1:05:33.880 when it's convenient for you? 1:05:34.080 --> 1:05:36.040 Well, yeah, then it's like that's the code switching thing, 1:05:36.040 --> 1:05:37.600 because then when he's sitting down to do a more 1:05:37.640 --> 1:05:40.360 serious interview, he's not acting. Yes, I think that's more 1:05:40.720 --> 1:05:45.160 what irks people generally, whereas it's so transparent in that way. 1:05:45.200 --> 1:05:48.600 And I don't think it's like conscious conscious in a 1:05:48.720 --> 1:05:51.480 certain way of course, but I don't think, you know, 1:05:51.520 --> 1:05:53.720 I don't think he and like his team sat down 1:05:53.760 --> 1:05:56.840 and were like, Okay, when you go to this, do this. 1:05:57.000 --> 1:05:58.720 It's like I think it comes easy to him. And 1:05:58.920 --> 1:06:01.080 granted he's an actor, you know, but yeah, yeah, I 1:06:01.400 --> 1:06:05.400 guess it's it's not as like manipulative as it might sound. 1:06:05.640 --> 1:06:08.400 Yeah, yeah, like malicious, I guess it is my my thinking. 1:06:08.560 --> 1:06:09.040 I agree. 1:06:09.400 --> 1:06:12.040 I'm also from uh, you know, I grew up in 1:06:12.120 --> 1:06:16.200 a very poor, low income neighborhood that was like fifty 1:06:16.600 --> 1:06:19.840 white and fifty percent black, and those white guys do exist, 1:06:20.120 --> 1:06:22.440 like yeah, totally like and then they'll go to college 1:06:22.480 --> 1:06:25.040 and like you know, kind of uh, straighten up. 1:06:24.960 --> 1:06:25.360 A little bit. 1:06:25.600 --> 1:06:28.360 But I could totally see why some people were skeptical 1:06:28.440 --> 1:06:31.320 because he does come like if your first introduction to 1:06:31.360 --> 1:06:34.240 Timothy Schuldmy was like prestige actor, yes, and then you 1:06:34.280 --> 1:06:36.480 see him doing this, well you really need to do 1:06:36.520 --> 1:06:38.320 is go back to those YouTube videos from him in 1:06:38.400 --> 1:06:38.880 high school. 1:06:39.320 --> 1:06:41.480 I drag, I got Dog Dog. 1:06:43.320 --> 1:06:49.120 Cat with FIFA. Thank you know your little pollard. 1:06:49.240 --> 1:06:50.840 Now I'm a Randrick Pop with a B. 1:06:56.360 --> 1:06:57.400 That's it for today's show. 1:06:57.800 --> 1:07:00.640 If you are a new listener, you may want to 1:07:00.680 --> 1:07:03.280 check out our episode on is Taylor Swift Bigger than 1:07:03.320 --> 1:07:06.240 Michael Jackson. It is number thirty six. I'm going to 1:07:06.280 --> 1:07:08.280 link to it in the show notes, and also just 1:07:08.400 --> 1:07:10.200 check out our whole archive. We got a lot of 1:07:10.240 --> 1:07:13.800 great episodes. They're all pretty evergreen, so you can make 1:07:13.840 --> 1:07:16.120 your way through it. No such thing as a production 1:07:16.240 --> 1:07:19.560 of kaleidoscope content. Our executive producers are kad Osbourne and 1:07:19.640 --> 1:07:22.240 men guest Kadakudur. The show is created by many Fidel 1:07:22.320 --> 1:07:25.240 No Friedman and Me, Devin Joseph. The in credit song 1:07:25.360 --> 1:07:29.120 by Manny, mixing by Steve Bone. Additional music for this 1:07:29.200 --> 1:07:33.720 episode by Zeno Peterrelli. Our guest this week was Kellifa 1:07:33.920 --> 1:07:37.000 from The New Yorker. Thank you UK. Visit No Such 1:07:37.080 --> 1:07:39.760 Thing not show to subscribe to our newsletter. If you 1:07:39.840 --> 1:07:42.240 have feedback for us, or a question you want us 1:07:42.280 --> 1:07:45.240 to answer, you can email us at Manny Noah Devin 1:07:45.360 --> 1:07:46.520 at gmail dot com. 1:07:46.800 --> 1:07:47.919 We'll be back next 1:07:48.200 --> 1:07:52.880 Hes heals No such thing