WEBVTT - James Carville Calls for Democratic Party Unity 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:34.036 Pushkin Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the 0:00:34.116 --> 0:00:37.356 show where we explored the stories behind the stories in 0:00:37.396 --> 0:00:41.076 the news. The biggest stories in this part of twenty 0:00:41.196 --> 0:00:45.476 twenty one are really stories of politics. There were the 0:00:45.556 --> 0:00:50.436 offseason gubernatorial elections in which the Democratic governor of Virginia was, 0:00:50.476 --> 0:00:54.156 surprisingly to everybody, defeated, and the Democratic governor of New 0:00:54.236 --> 0:00:58.476 Jersey barely scraped by, despite the fact that in New Jersey, 0:00:58.516 --> 0:01:02.916 as indeed in Virginia, Joe Biden had defeated Donald Trump handily. 0:01:03.716 --> 0:01:06.956 These issues themselves playing to the question of what Joe 0:01:06.956 --> 0:01:09.556 Biden's national accomplishments are and whether any and he knows 0:01:09.596 --> 0:01:12.876 about them. And then the deeper and more sustained political 0:01:12.876 --> 0:01:16.076 issues about the depth of polarization in our politics, the 0:01:16.236 --> 0:01:20.876 rise of violence, and the long term future of politics 0:01:21.076 --> 0:01:24.156 in the United States. What kind of a guest, you 0:01:24.196 --> 0:01:26.916 may be wondering, would be eager to talk and share 0:01:27.196 --> 0:01:31.676 views about every single element of these if a most unrestrained, 0:01:31.996 --> 0:01:36.636 direct and colorful way possible, Who, indeed but James Carville, 0:01:37.076 --> 0:01:38.916 the man who became known is one of the great 0:01:38.916 --> 0:01:43.036 political strategists of the modern era. After crafting Bill Clinton's 0:01:43.076 --> 0:01:47.636 nineteen ninety two presidential victory. James started working in politics 0:01:47.636 --> 0:01:51.316 long before that, and he continued working in politics long after. 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:56.436 He's a sought after commentator, an analyst, a political adviser, and, 0:01:56.876 --> 0:02:00.516 in the deepest and most positive sense, a character. He 0:02:00.556 --> 0:02:03.476 says what's on his mind without fear or favor, and 0:02:03.556 --> 0:02:07.356 that makes him about the most entertaining podcast guest you 0:02:07.396 --> 0:02:10.916 could begin to imagine, in addition to having things to 0:02:10.956 --> 0:02:15.756 say that are potentially deeply significant and insightful for where 0:02:15.796 --> 0:02:21.316 we are and where we're going. James, thank you so 0:02:21.396 --> 0:02:23.796 much for being here. I want to get into the 0:02:23.876 --> 0:02:27.436 deep trends that are facing changing political life and in 0:02:27.476 --> 0:02:29.556 our country today, but I want to start off with 0:02:29.596 --> 0:02:34.076 something more local, which is the gubernatorial races, both in 0:02:34.156 --> 0:02:38.196 New Jersey where Democrat Film Murphy barely survived and then 0:02:38.436 --> 0:02:41.996 Virginia where Terry mccaugh the Democrat, went down. And I 0:02:42.036 --> 0:02:47.156 want to ask you what your interpretation is of those results. Well, 0:02:47.796 --> 0:02:53.476 I think it speaks to a large issue for reasons 0:02:53.756 --> 0:02:56.596 that are complex, and I don't quite understand, people have 0:02:56.676 --> 0:03:03.156 become willing to believe anything about Democrats. We are immunocompromise 0:03:03.516 --> 0:03:08.436 where people are willing to believe the most outlanderous things 0:03:08.476 --> 0:03:14.156 because a small segment of people who associated to Democratic 0:03:14.196 --> 0:03:20.196 Party come up with these crazy ass ideas that gained currency, 0:03:20.516 --> 0:03:23.516 and we dive into that because I have two part 0:03:23.516 --> 0:03:26.916 answer to that. The first is Donald Trump. He taught 0:03:26.956 --> 0:03:30.156 everybody that you can assert anything and people who want 0:03:30.156 --> 0:03:32.476 to be on your side will listen to you. But 0:03:32.516 --> 0:03:34.196 that's not going to be enough here because a lot 0:03:34.196 --> 0:03:36.596 of those voters in the places you just mentioned who 0:03:36.596 --> 0:03:43.116 went Republican themselves were anti Trump, So that's not quite enough. 0:03:44.036 --> 0:03:45.596 The other element has got to have something to do 0:03:45.596 --> 0:03:50.196 with the internal politics of at least the publicly facing discussion, 0:03:50.996 --> 0:03:54.556 where I do think that what's happened is that super prominent, 0:03:54.676 --> 0:03:57.476 especially younger voices on the left side of the party, 0:03:58.036 --> 0:04:02.596 have tremendous sway in the public conversation, as more moderate 0:04:02.636 --> 0:04:06.436 voices just say okay, I hear you, but don't stand 0:04:06.476 --> 0:04:08.916 up and argue against that side of the party because 0:04:08.916 --> 0:04:11.436 they think, well, we have the votes anyway, we have 0:04:11.516 --> 0:04:13.356 the power in the party anyway, there's no point in 0:04:13.396 --> 0:04:17.436 wasting our energy in fighting with you publicly. And what's more, 0:04:17.436 --> 0:04:19.116 you'll bring us down. So we're just not going to 0:04:19.196 --> 0:04:21.836 do that. And then when a Republican goes out and 0:04:21.876 --> 0:04:23.756 says you have to believe this about the Democrats, the 0:04:23.796 --> 0:04:26.556 public says, Okay, I guess we do believe because you 0:04:26.596 --> 0:04:28.916 haven't been we don't visibly see you fighting with the 0:04:28.996 --> 0:04:32.836 left wing of your party. So, by the way, I'm 0:04:32.836 --> 0:04:35.356 not a modern Democrat. I'm allible Democrat. And I take 0:04:35.396 --> 0:04:38.596 all of these little exams online, you know, Yeah, there's 0:04:38.636 --> 0:04:40.676 a thousand of them. Then I always come out like 0:04:40.716 --> 0:04:43.076 an eight point two or something. All right, But what 0:04:43.156 --> 0:04:46.316 I'm not is a leftist. But you got to understand it. 0:04:46.396 --> 0:04:51.156 That is part of the Democratic coalition. It's not a 0:04:51.156 --> 0:04:54.836 big part at all, all right, not at all. I 0:04:54.876 --> 0:04:58.836 could fight you election after the election in Manhattan, in 0:04:58.996 --> 0:05:02.276 New York City, in Cleveland and New Orleans and anywhere 0:05:02.276 --> 0:05:05.356 you want to look, and they are in my view, 0:05:05.436 --> 0:05:07.756 and you have a lot of it in academia. To me, 0:05:07.796 --> 0:05:12.116 they're kind of silly, all right. They're not evil. They're 0:05:12.156 --> 0:05:16.596 just I think, silly and try to change the language, 0:05:16.596 --> 0:05:19.156 and people just resist and don't want to talk about 0:05:19.716 --> 0:05:23.756 the significant part of their party is out now evil 0:05:24.596 --> 0:05:26.356 I mean, I mean, I mean, none of it in 0:05:26.436 --> 0:05:32.076 a fruitcake. Yeah, yes, yes, yeah. Supposed you have a 0:05:32.116 --> 0:05:34.716 grandchild of a niece, a nephew and they come to 0:05:34.756 --> 0:05:37.756 you and they say, I'm gonna I'm gonna work in 0:05:37.796 --> 0:05:41.036 the LC's office. It will be the deputy communications person. 0:05:41.116 --> 0:05:43.716 You would your reaction would be, well, that's fine, you're 0:05:43.756 --> 0:05:45.916 gonna meet some interesting people or probably some of the 0:05:45.956 --> 0:05:48.236 things that you have Kate and I can't go along with, 0:05:48.396 --> 0:05:50.436 but there'll be a hell of an experience. Please do it. 0:05:51.036 --> 0:05:53.196 If your niece, your grandchild comes you and says I'm 0:05:53.236 --> 0:05:56.036 going to work from Martrey Taylor Green, you jump off 0:05:56.036 --> 0:05:59.796 the bridge. Your life is open. It's not a comparable event. 0:06:00.236 --> 0:06:04.236 They're not comparable people. But the thing is it gives 0:06:04.276 --> 0:06:08.436 a it gives the equivalence caucus. Well, yeah, you got them, 0:06:08.636 --> 0:06:10.836 but we've got that. Yeah, you got some silly people, 0:06:10.916 --> 0:06:14.916 we got some criminals. Okay, that's a difference between all 0:06:14.996 --> 0:06:20.516 right having a silly idea and Sam in the goddamn capital. Okay, 0:06:20.516 --> 0:06:22.956 it's too different. I could not agree with you more 0:06:22.996 --> 0:06:25.756 that we're talking about radically different things. One thing it 0:06:25.756 --> 0:06:27.716 really strikes me is that, you know, when I was 0:06:27.756 --> 0:06:30.836 first learning about politics, the Republican Party was self presenting 0:06:30.836 --> 0:06:33.876 itself as moral. They called themselves moral. They had a 0:06:33.916 --> 0:06:36.836 group called the Moral Majority, and Democrats were the party 0:06:36.876 --> 0:06:38.876 of liberalism, which was a party of tolerance, where we 0:06:38.876 --> 0:06:40.676 didn't preach that we were moral. On the other side 0:06:40.716 --> 0:06:43.596 was not moral, that said. A lot of the most 0:06:43.636 --> 0:06:46.716 deeply committed activists on the left of the Democratic Party, 0:06:46.796 --> 0:06:50.516 or some of them called themselves democratic socialists, are highly 0:06:50.556 --> 0:06:53.636 focused on a politics of morality. They think that supporters 0:06:53.676 --> 0:06:55.916 on the other side are not just wrong, but are bad, 0:06:56.356 --> 0:07:00.516 and that worldviews that they disagree with are not just wrong, 0:07:00.556 --> 0:07:05.076 but our evil, our racist or grounded in racism, or 0:07:05.796 --> 0:07:08.556 our capitalist in a way that's not excusable. And that 0:07:08.636 --> 0:07:11.676 seems to me to drive a lot of the debate 0:07:11.716 --> 0:07:15.036 in which liberal Democrats or moderate Democrats don't want to 0:07:15.076 --> 0:07:17.276 get into it. They don't want to fight over these questions. 0:07:17.676 --> 0:07:21.836 But I understand that. Okay, it's a small part of 0:07:21.876 --> 0:07:26.396 the Democratic Party. Agreed. Agreed, They're a big part of 0:07:26.436 --> 0:07:30.876 the culture, and they're given a much bigger megaphone than 0:07:31.276 --> 0:07:34.556 their votes deserve. They lose every freaking election. The only 0:07:34.596 --> 0:07:38.476 election that can never win is primary in some poor 0:07:38.556 --> 0:07:43.476 old Democrat in a plus Cook plus PBI forty district. 0:07:43.556 --> 0:07:45.996 They don't run against Republicans. All they run is in Mouth, 0:07:46.796 --> 0:07:51.556 all right, that's what they experts at and in people 0:07:51.756 --> 0:07:54.916 don't want to live like that. So when people live 0:07:54.956 --> 0:08:00.276 in fear, they just don't do it. And I was 0:08:00.276 --> 0:08:02.756 steaching two lane, and I said, look, the only reason 0:08:03.556 --> 0:08:05.956 that I'm not inviting David Duke to speak to this 0:08:05.996 --> 0:08:08.596 class because I just don't want the president university crap 0:08:08.596 --> 0:08:12.156 of pineapp apple. And you know i'd call it, but philosophically, 0:08:12.636 --> 0:08:15.956 I'm an old liberal, like even Bernie Sanders. As much 0:08:15.996 --> 0:08:18.916 as I tussle with Bernie, he's the same way. And 0:08:19.076 --> 0:08:23.436 a lot of old line a clu Ada Democrats that are. 0:08:24.076 --> 0:08:25.996 And I'm bored to come bore out of the Southern 0:08:26.076 --> 0:08:29.436 Democratic tradition. But this shit makes me uncomfortable at some level. 0:08:30.076 --> 0:08:32.996 But I'm not uncomfortable enough to challenge it because it'll 0:08:33.076 --> 0:08:37.916 just scream it out. I haven't gotten any significant pushback 0:08:37.956 --> 0:08:42.516 from a democratic strategist, opportunites, consultant, whatever you want to 0:08:42.516 --> 0:08:47.156 call them, saying your misdiagnosis, James. No, yep, they're just that. 0:08:47.396 --> 0:08:51.236 No one, no one believes that. But I'm gonna draw 0:08:51.316 --> 0:08:54.036 back a little bit because I'm tired of fighting with 0:08:54.156 --> 0:08:57.036 other Democrats because I think the country's on the go 0:08:57.116 --> 0:08:58.956 the wrong fucking way here. All right, this is not 0:09:00.076 --> 0:09:02.756 that was gonna be. That was gonna be my next question, Um, 0:09:03.116 --> 0:09:06.596 what is your assessment of the odds of genuine disaster 0:09:06.716 --> 0:09:11.076 in twenty twenty two and twenty twenty four to Yeah, 0:09:11.196 --> 0:09:13.356 if you go in and you're having a medical test, 0:09:14.116 --> 0:09:16.996 all right, and what's the odd that you say, fuck this, 0:09:17.116 --> 0:09:20.316 I don't want it. It's way hard that Okay, if 0:09:20.396 --> 0:09:23.316 that's going in and doing a heart cast or something 0:09:23.436 --> 0:09:25.596 in the dodge that I was gonna die, age highs 0:09:25.596 --> 0:09:29.116 that we have a genuine catastrophe in I say, I 0:09:29.196 --> 0:09:31.036 should I just die of a heart attack? Man to 0:09:31.116 --> 0:09:34.276 stay away from me. Yeah, I can't put a number 0:09:34.316 --> 0:09:37.516 on it, but it's unbelievably for the fear that people 0:09:37.556 --> 0:09:39.316 like me have, We're not We're not. It's not crazy 0:09:39.316 --> 0:09:44.236 to be that a fred And it's not crazy for 0:09:45.516 --> 0:09:49.196 people to say at some point we're such a danger. 0:09:49.676 --> 0:09:52.196 We just got to stop fighting with each other, all right. 0:09:52.196 --> 0:09:55.916 And I'll be the first. I've always been willing to criticize, 0:09:56.036 --> 0:09:59.076 and I think justifiably, don't get me wrong, but sometimes 0:09:59.076 --> 0:10:01.196 you got to subjugate, which you really think for the 0:10:01.276 --> 0:10:03.476 greater good of the country. And I think we're entering 0:10:03.516 --> 0:10:06.076 a period like that. I really do. Well, let me 0:10:06.076 --> 0:10:08.276 ask you about that, because I like to say that too. 0:10:08.316 --> 0:10:10.036 I always say, you know, and things get bad enough, 0:10:10.076 --> 0:10:12.316 we reach and recognize that we have enough in common 0:10:12.316 --> 0:10:15.476 that we have to pull together. But you know, pandemic, 0:10:15.956 --> 0:10:20.356 national shutdown, economy through the floor, that all just happened, 0:10:20.756 --> 0:10:22.756 and it did not pull us together. It did not 0:10:22.836 --> 0:10:26.716 produce any kind of unification. And what's more, in some way, 0:10:26.916 --> 0:10:28.436 we got through it. I mean, I'm not saying we're 0:10:28.436 --> 0:10:30.076 all the way through it. We're not. I'm not saying 0:10:30.076 --> 0:10:33.116 we're not through it without consequences. There are consequences. But 0:10:33.476 --> 0:10:34.956 we did get through it. And so that sort of 0:10:34.996 --> 0:10:37.356 makes me wonder what did it take. What would it 0:10:37.396 --> 0:10:39.836 take for us to actually say we got to pull together. 0:10:40.516 --> 0:10:44.196 I don't think we saw it all right. I mean, 0:10:44.556 --> 0:10:48.956 we exist, and you know, the Kenya treasury is still 0:10:49.036 --> 0:10:52.436 with the benchmark of the world. But I'm not sure 0:10:52.516 --> 0:10:55.876 that we food yesh. I mean, we had a insurrection, 0:10:55.916 --> 0:10:59.876 which is one of the great criminal acts, political criminal acts, 0:10:59.876 --> 0:11:06.796 and since what's something and we're still dealing with it. 0:11:07.356 --> 0:11:09.716 I don't think we threw it at all. In the 0:11:09.796 --> 0:11:14.036 aftermath of that insurrection. We've had a total breakdown in 0:11:14.076 --> 0:11:17.436 the capacity of our institutions to blame anybody for it. 0:11:18.156 --> 0:11:22.596 And you know, we've got centure that has no effect 0:11:22.636 --> 0:11:26.236 on members of the House who are centured money off 0:11:26.276 --> 0:11:28.076 of it. Yeah, exactly, they turn around and raise money 0:11:28.116 --> 0:11:30.956 off it the next day. Forty three percent of this 0:11:31.156 --> 0:11:34.556 country doesn't want it to get better, and I'm afraid 0:11:34.636 --> 0:11:39.516 another eight percent have just checked out. Yeah. So if 0:11:39.556 --> 0:11:41.996 that's the case, I'm not clear on what it takes 0:11:42.036 --> 0:11:45.236 to so that the kind of the grand talk that 0:11:45.316 --> 0:11:48.356 I believe in of being able to find our way 0:11:48.356 --> 0:11:50.596 back to the middle. I'm I worry that I'm wrong. 0:11:51.636 --> 0:11:55.796 I'll do too. I'm worried at you all wrong. Yeah, Okay, Yeah, 0:11:56.036 --> 0:12:01.436 I mean I'm really worried. I'm not saying that is 0:12:01.476 --> 0:12:03.636 going to end poorly, but I'm saying the odds of 0:12:03.636 --> 0:12:06.996 that happening are way too high. One thing that made 0:12:07.076 --> 0:12:10.116 me optimistic is too strong, but made me makes me 0:12:10.156 --> 0:12:13.716 feel positive is looking at Stacey Abrams and what she 0:12:13.756 --> 0:12:18.316 accomplished in Georgia using turnout in twenty twenty, and I 0:12:18.356 --> 0:12:21.156 was really curious to hear your view about that. I mean, 0:12:21.196 --> 0:12:23.836 she in her case, it's a multi year strategy with 0:12:23.916 --> 0:12:26.716 a theory, an operation to try to bring it about 0:12:26.876 --> 0:12:30.756 and at least under those election conditions, really impressive results 0:12:31.276 --> 0:12:34.636 on presidential election and then both Senate seats. I worry 0:12:34.636 --> 0:12:36.756 a little bit we're too dependent on those Senate seats. 0:12:37.076 --> 0:12:39.156 But but I want to hear what you think about that, 0:12:39.596 --> 0:12:42.156 the Stacey Abrams strategy and how it's been executed. So 0:12:42.316 --> 0:12:44.476 I have a lot of thoughts about that. First of all, 0:12:44.276 --> 0:12:48.156 we p to Peacia academic research, the lead research. I 0:12:48.236 --> 0:12:51.596 want to say to Stoppel, who's at hard news data 0:12:51.716 --> 0:12:57.476 from the ninth and it basically compared Stacy in Georgia. Shoot, 0:12:57.516 --> 0:13:00.836 I think it was Reverend Barba North Carolina. Wait, in, 0:13:00.956 --> 0:13:03.916 this is my real issue with these left issues. They 0:13:03.956 --> 0:13:05.996 don't want to engage in politics. They think it's like 0:13:06.116 --> 0:13:10.916 a dirty business. If you're not willing to engage in politics, 0:13:10.996 --> 0:13:14.836 you're just full of shit, all right. Reverend Barbara North Carolina, 0:13:14.996 --> 0:13:19.716 he organized around idealism and Stacy organized around politics, and 0:13:19.916 --> 0:13:25.116 like went out campaign for like like Democrats brought up bills, etcetera, etcetera. 0:13:26.236 --> 0:13:30.116 Georgia's voted blue in twenty twenty and North Carolina didn't. 0:13:30.236 --> 0:13:34.116 And it's it's a very compelling piece of research, and 0:13:34.196 --> 0:13:36.676 it's a compelling piece of political science. I recommend it 0:13:36.716 --> 0:13:39.436 to everybody. You have to get your hands dirty, and 0:13:39.596 --> 0:13:41.876 you've got to compromise, and you gotta push, and you 0:13:41.956 --> 0:13:45.276 gotta do this. And once you start thinking that you 0:13:45.396 --> 0:13:48.476 have to wear a condom anytime you're around politics, you've 0:13:48.556 --> 0:13:52.276 lost the game. And I think that is in her 0:13:52.396 --> 0:13:57.236 cohorts research showed that very demonstravely. I have a very 0:13:57.316 --> 0:14:02.356 high opinion of politics. But I do think the problem 0:14:02.596 --> 0:14:05.596 is one side, I go back to my central thesis, 0:14:05.836 --> 0:14:11.556 is out of their goddamn minds, literally accepted of criminality, 0:14:13.196 --> 0:14:16.556 and the other side is caught up in what I 0:14:16.596 --> 0:14:22.476 would say is not particularly productive, almost theological view of 0:14:22.556 --> 0:14:27.436 the world, a zealous thing that they called the dictatorship 0:14:27.476 --> 0:14:31.556 of the politarium. This is the dictatorship of overwhelmingly over 0:14:31.796 --> 0:14:35.316 educated whites trying to dictate to the rest of the 0:14:35.396 --> 0:14:40.436 country's something that they're not interested in buying. When you 0:14:40.676 --> 0:14:43.396 investigate this to few people, and they're very good. They did, 0:14:43.436 --> 0:14:48.236 like a four thousand sample divide America into nine different 0:14:48.316 --> 0:14:54.476 subgroups for Democratic, for Republican, one independently. In the Democratic Party, 0:14:54.956 --> 0:14:59.636 the extreme left was like eleven percent of the party. 0:14:59.996 --> 0:15:03.116 It was the only majority white part of our coalition. 0:15:03.876 --> 0:15:06.316 That'll tell you something. Somebody's got a call this for 0:15:06.436 --> 0:15:10.076 what it is, right, Yeah, and that is I mean 0:15:10.116 --> 0:15:12.116 that also fits into the stay Abrams approach. I mean 0:15:12.196 --> 0:15:14.836 she won over and got turned out from black voters, 0:15:14.996 --> 0:15:17.476 not by running to the left of the of the party, 0:15:17.556 --> 0:15:20.796 but running things back towards the center right. And she 0:15:20.916 --> 0:15:23.636 did also a little better around the state with the whites, 0:15:24.396 --> 0:15:28.076 you know, particularly in like northern you know, some of 0:15:28.196 --> 0:15:31.116 these areas not not great. You know, we had a 0:15:31.196 --> 0:15:34.716 theory in twenty twenty. We've spent ninety million dollars and 0:15:34.836 --> 0:15:40.676 seventy seven counties in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin, and we 0:15:40.716 --> 0:15:45.276 actually changed the boat those counties by somewhere between three 0:15:45.356 --> 0:15:49.436 and six. That changes sea level. Yep, that changes sea level. 0:15:50.436 --> 0:15:54.876 Once they have this sort of urban strategy that we're 0:15:54.916 --> 0:15:57.716 gonna have educated whites and by park it's at the 0:15:57.756 --> 0:16:02.636 ADI just not enough because they're not enough. They're not 0:16:02.876 --> 0:16:05.316 enough white people. They're not enough white people of that 0:16:06.236 --> 0:16:10.036 very strategic and located. And by the way, the black 0:16:10.116 --> 0:16:14.916 indigenous people of color becoming, if anything, slightly less democratic. 0:16:15.796 --> 0:16:18.236 In eighteen percent of the people in this country elect 0:16:18.316 --> 0:16:21.716 fifty two senators. Right, So unless you're willing to just 0:16:21.836 --> 0:16:26.236 throw the unless the Senate doesn't count, your strategy is stupid. 0:16:27.236 --> 0:16:29.996 It's not gonna happen. Yeah, what about those proposals that 0:16:30.076 --> 0:16:33.876 I think of frankly is crazy to break up big 0:16:34.276 --> 0:16:37.636 democratic states and create more states, which obviously the Republicans 0:16:37.676 --> 0:16:40.876 could retaliate with Texas at least. But when you hear 0:16:40.916 --> 0:16:42.996 that kind of thing, when I hear it, I just 0:16:43.076 --> 0:16:45.876 think crazy talk. Don't waste my time. It should I 0:16:45.956 --> 0:16:49.036 be more realistic about that. Yeah, you should be more. 0:16:49.116 --> 0:16:53.556 You should be worried. In Batterygees where I grew up, 0:16:54.156 --> 0:16:56.276 Corville was twenty miles south of bat Rage. I went 0:16:56.316 --> 0:16:58.556 to college, and they just have this thing where it's 0:16:58.596 --> 0:17:02.836 just kind of white part of South batter Rouge wants 0:17:02.836 --> 0:17:05.156 to break off from the parish because they don't want 0:17:05.196 --> 0:17:08.396 to support schools in non white districts. I mean, it's 0:17:08.396 --> 0:17:12.276 a pretty clear what the motivation is. It's very popular, 0:17:12.796 --> 0:17:15.116 and you can just see as you see these polls 0:17:15.196 --> 0:17:19.036 and you're started to dimiss them, like thirty eight percent succession, 0:17:20.516 --> 0:17:24.316 really succession? You can wait a minute. You know, urban areas. 0:17:25.116 --> 0:17:27.436 You know, I grew up in Louisiana, though all in 0:17:27.556 --> 0:17:29.236 versus the rest of the state. I cut my teeth 0:17:29.236 --> 0:17:33.196 in Pennsylvania politics, it's always Philadelphia versus the rest of 0:17:33.236 --> 0:17:38.156 the state. And boy, if you look at Texas ship 0:17:38.516 --> 0:17:41.636 eighty percent of the growth in Texas is all in quote, 0:17:41.756 --> 0:17:46.396 democratic rural counties unquote. I mean, it's all in Harris 0:17:46.476 --> 0:17:51.556 and Dallas and Tarrant and Travis and Bayer and there's 0:17:51.596 --> 0:17:56.556 everything else. And so that this is a it's a dangerous, 0:17:56.996 --> 0:17:59.436 dangerous idea that's taken more hold than I would like. 0:18:01.436 --> 0:18:12.916 We'll be right back, James. Another topic I wanted to 0:18:12.956 --> 0:18:15.756 ask you about, which is only obliquely related to this, 0:18:16.036 --> 0:18:20.796 is executive privilege. So you've got Steve Bannon, who's you know, 0:18:20.916 --> 0:18:24.236 about as unpleasant a person as you can imagine, just 0:18:24.396 --> 0:18:28.036 been federally charged for contempt of Congress for asserting that 0:18:28.196 --> 0:18:32.836 executive privilege would protect him from having to testify with 0:18:32.956 --> 0:18:35.636 Donald Trump telling him so, and you know, as a 0:18:35.716 --> 0:18:40.196 matter of existing law, he is wrong, and presumably if 0:18:40.236 --> 0:18:43.116 it gets to a jury, he'll be convicted. But it 0:18:43.236 --> 0:18:46.596 does raise an underlying question, which is, and you've had 0:18:46.636 --> 0:18:49.476 this experience yourself of being a close advisor of presidents. 0:18:49.676 --> 0:18:54.596 So how much should communications between the president and senior 0:18:54.636 --> 0:18:58.396 advisors continue to be protected even when the next president 0:18:58.476 --> 0:19:01.676 says I waive the privilege. I'm happy for the information 0:19:01.796 --> 0:19:06.156 to come out. Well, I mean it should be protected 0:19:06.476 --> 0:19:12.316 pretty vigorously. Okay, Now if he should not be protected, right, Okay, 0:19:12.676 --> 0:19:15.756 that's the bright line. That's that's the bright line. You know, 0:19:15.796 --> 0:19:18.756 if you say, look, if we negotiate this, or you know, 0:19:18.916 --> 0:19:22.356 this guy wants a postmaster and Shoeboygan, and so we 0:19:22.436 --> 0:19:24.756 can give him a postmaster ship and Seboygan and we 0:19:24.796 --> 0:19:27.596 can get his vote on that, that that obviously should 0:19:27.636 --> 0:19:32.796 be protected. To the Instagram. Yeah, I think executive privilege 0:19:32.916 --> 0:19:37.516 does have a pretty solid place in the law. But 0:19:37.956 --> 0:19:39.916 by the way, I think if any if he goes 0:19:39.996 --> 0:19:42.636 to jail to be his cellmate, you could make a 0:19:42.716 --> 0:19:45.756 good Eighth Amendment Cruel and unusual punishment. Can you mand 0:19:45.836 --> 0:19:48.076 what he smells? Like, oh my God, you had to 0:19:48.116 --> 0:19:52.716 said his name. Sell that Jesus, he'd have people looking 0:19:52.876 --> 0:19:56.436 looking for the gas chamber. I'm not I'm ever going 0:19:56.516 --> 0:19:59.036 to touch that one, although I'd be very surprised if 0:19:59.036 --> 0:20:01.836 he sees the inside of a prison, very very surprised, 0:20:01.876 --> 0:20:04.036 but not impossible. Do you think, by the way, speaking 0:20:04.076 --> 0:20:06.396 of Bennon, do you think that as a kind of 0:20:06.636 --> 0:20:09.036 intellectual father of Trump is um because you know, tru 0:20:09.316 --> 0:20:11.316 himself did not invent Trump. Isn't that much as clear 0:20:11.396 --> 0:20:14.196 And although success as a thousand fathers, it's clear that 0:20:14.276 --> 0:20:19.076 Bennon is one of them. Is he someone whose political insights, 0:20:19.196 --> 0:20:22.756 in your view, were powerful? I mean they're bad. I 0:20:22.796 --> 0:20:24.996 don't think there's any question about that. They're very bad. 0:20:25.556 --> 0:20:28.556 But what is he someone you put in the kind 0:20:28.596 --> 0:20:32.276 of short list of people who, like you, have the 0:20:32.356 --> 0:20:34.596 kind of political clarity and vision to see what's coming 0:20:34.636 --> 0:20:37.076 down the road? I mean Karl Rove, whose politics I 0:20:37.156 --> 0:20:39.716 don't particularly care for, and neither do you. I think 0:20:39.756 --> 0:20:43.116 he clearly does fall into that category. But does Steve 0:20:43.196 --> 0:20:47.876 Bannon fit in that category? I think Bannon's genius was 0:20:47.996 --> 0:20:53.916 he saw a dormant narrating that people would just really 0:20:54.156 --> 0:20:58.356 ready to respond to. And I hate to say it. 0:20:59.516 --> 0:21:04.516 I hope that Bennonism's crushed, But again, I don't know. 0:21:04.676 --> 0:21:06.516 He could. He could be one of the more relevant 0:21:06.556 --> 0:21:12.116 people in next not American consulting. Yeah, I hate giving 0:21:12.156 --> 0:21:17.796 a guy. Clearly, you have this kind of Thanksgiving Day table, 0:21:18.036 --> 0:21:21.836 you know, Uncle Joe spouting shit off. It was a 0:21:21.916 --> 0:21:27.036 lot more popular than you didn't We would have liked. Yeah, yeah, 0:21:27.476 --> 0:21:29.796 what do you think explains it having been dormant for 0:21:29.876 --> 0:21:31.756 as long as it was, Because that's one thing that's 0:21:31.756 --> 0:21:34.436 fascinating about it. Like you said, it's not really that 0:21:34.676 --> 0:21:37.356 new and narrative in its essence. That's why you call 0:21:37.396 --> 0:21:40.876 it dormant. It was there all along. We just people 0:21:40.956 --> 0:21:43.396 like like us thought to ourselves, Yeah, there's Uncle Joe, 0:21:43.876 --> 0:21:45.876 but that's not how you win elections in the United States. 0:21:45.916 --> 0:21:47.756 There's certain things that you can't say, even if you're 0:21:47.756 --> 0:21:49.996 the Republican candidate running for president. You can have a 0:21:50.036 --> 0:21:53.196 whistle dog whistle to racism, but you can't overtly be 0:21:53.276 --> 0:21:55.916 a racist. Turns out not true, right, You can say 0:21:55.916 --> 0:21:58.716 a lot of things openly that we thought you couldn't say, 0:21:58.716 --> 0:22:00.636 and not just we, but everyone in the political game 0:22:00.996 --> 0:22:03.956 thought you couldn't say it openly, So why why was that? 0:22:04.156 --> 0:22:06.236 Why don't we get as long a period in which 0:22:06.316 --> 0:22:08.956 these things were inappropriate to say or believed to mean 0:22:08.996 --> 0:22:11.676 a rope to say politically as we actually got said. 0:22:11.916 --> 0:22:14.116 It kind of started the obligation kind of started with 0:22:14.236 --> 0:22:15.996 Lee at Water. He said, you know, you used to 0:22:16.036 --> 0:22:17.916 be able to stand up and say blah blah blah, 0:22:18.036 --> 0:22:22.436 but now you got to say busting of urban you 0:22:22.556 --> 0:22:27.076 from And what the balance of the world said is no, 0:22:27.356 --> 0:22:31.596 you don't. You just go you go right for the jugular. 0:22:32.476 --> 0:22:37.436 And you know, the Republican Party for a long time 0:22:37.676 --> 0:22:42.436 was sort of more interested in service and capitalism's needs. 0:22:42.876 --> 0:22:47.076 But again, yeah, I think that we we don't speak 0:22:47.116 --> 0:22:50.476 in coded languages so much anymore. And I actually kind 0:22:50.476 --> 0:22:54.516 of like coded languages. That's the kind of language is dangerous. 0:22:55.876 --> 0:22:58.956 It is really dangerous because dangerous people hear it and 0:22:59.036 --> 0:23:02.916 believe it. That's a danger and that something does And look, 0:23:03.916 --> 0:23:07.356 you could go a long way in America feeling to 0:23:07.436 --> 0:23:12.596 people's prejudices and fears, and it's really a if you 0:23:12.636 --> 0:23:15.956 stop and you think about it, product, there have an 0:23:16.076 --> 0:23:19.556 idea that they and I hear this all the time. 0:23:19.756 --> 0:23:22.076 I hear from family members, I hear from people I 0:23:22.196 --> 0:23:23.836 grew up with. You know, James, this is not the 0:23:23.876 --> 0:23:26.236 same country we grew up in. I said, of course 0:23:26.276 --> 0:23:29.876 it's not. It's not going to be just named country. 0:23:30.716 --> 0:23:36.196 And there's some idea that there's some restoration. And you're right, 0:23:36.276 --> 0:23:41.116 if you're a white male, your status in American society 0:23:41.236 --> 0:23:45.276 has been severely disminished. Yeah, people like you and I 0:23:45.996 --> 0:23:49.036 are not particularly distressed about the changes that are coming 0:23:49.036 --> 0:23:50.556 to the country. We think we bring a lot of 0:23:50.596 --> 0:23:52.596 people to the table that wouldn't be there before, and 0:23:52.676 --> 0:23:56.316 as opposed to relying on a talent pool of just 0:23:56.996 --> 0:23:59.876 college educated white males, we have this drawing on this 0:24:00.276 --> 0:24:05.836 enormously vast and increased talent book. Right, But you gotta 0:24:05.916 --> 0:24:10.356 understand that people are very fearful of that, sure, and 0:24:10.516 --> 0:24:13.596 they think there's a way that we can go back 0:24:14.316 --> 0:24:16.636 to the old ways. That's that's what's really at work 0:24:16.756 --> 0:24:20.796 at American politics is that people like us are kind 0:24:20.836 --> 0:24:24.076 of enthusiastic about the kind of demographic changes that are 0:24:24.116 --> 0:24:26.716 happening in the United States. But there are a lot 0:24:26.796 --> 0:24:29.036 of people that are very fearful of these changes, and 0:24:29.716 --> 0:24:32.836