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Speaker 1: Also media. So so prop you listened to the Boston

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Speaker 1: Slide cop, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I just yes, mainly because like I just feel like

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Speaker 2: Boston city people are the most on brand people, like

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Speaker 2: the Boston people are the most Boston ever. And it

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Speaker 2: was a joy to hear Jamie bring back her accent. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because I'm like I missed that. I'm like, I need

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Speaker 2: you to have more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean she does a nice imitation of a

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Speaker 3: Boston accent.

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Speaker 4: I just really a lot of I.

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Speaker 1: Just really want a techno remix of the end of

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Speaker 1: the the side cap video where he's like a fuck,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Robert, could you do it better?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You teach us how to do it? Boy slow.

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Speaker 3: So that was it's like East Boston, you know, I

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Speaker 3: think this guy was some other.

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Speaker 4: Part of town.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm slid in classic Boston line what you would say.

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Speaker 2: I'm getting better it. I'm getting better at it. Yeah

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Speaker 2: you are.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, I'm very I'm very proud of that show. So

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Speaker 1: sixteenth Minute of Fame.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great show to open about sixteenth Minute

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Speaker 3: of Fame. And you know, sixteenth Minute of Fame is

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Speaker 3: made by our friend Jamie Loftus And when we start

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Speaker 3: part four, We're going to talk about Thomas Jefferson's friend

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Speaker 3: Dabney Carr, who died. Anyway, we're back. So we've talked

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Speaker 3: about Dabney a couple of times here. Prop and his

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Speaker 3: best childhood best friend. They go to school together, they

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Speaker 3: live at school together. Then Dabney dies at like thirty,

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Speaker 3: you know, tragically young. And as little kids they had,

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Speaker 3: they'd spent a lot of time hanging out, and you know,

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Speaker 3: the vast property, all these thousands of acres his dad owns.

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Speaker 3: Thomas's favorite part is this place called montes Cello. This

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Speaker 3: place he calls montes Cello, which is like this little mountain.

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Speaker 3: And as a child, he and Dabney made a promise

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Speaker 3: that the first one of them to die would bury

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Speaker 3: the other under a specific oak tree atop Monticello. Jefferson

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Speaker 3: followed up on this promise by having the people he

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Speaker 3: owned dig it because he's not going to dig a

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Speaker 3: grave for his dead friend. And then he took notes

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Speaker 3: like a serial killer about it.

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Speaker 2: Weirdo, But the mountain.

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Speaker 3: Monticello, where his friend chooses to be buried, gets its

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Speaker 3: name from Jefferson, who took the Italian word for small mountain. Now,

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Speaker 3: I've always heard that Monticello was a mountain, and that's

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Speaker 3: what people always say about it. But before I sat

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Speaker 3: down to write these episodes, I hadn't actually looked up

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Speaker 3: the height of the fucker. And as soon as I did,

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Speaker 3: it's eight hundred feet tall. Prop that doesn't seem like

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Speaker 3: a mountain to me. That's a hill, right, That's a hill. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's a fucking hill. And like, I don't know, it's

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Speaker 3: one of those things. There's not actually a universally agreed

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Speaker 3: upon definition of a mountain, right, and this is this

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Speaker 3: is petty. We're talking about a man who does some

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Speaker 3: terrible things. But it annoys me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of yeah, the size of a mountains

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Speaker 2: kind of a vibe thing. But yeah, but I feel like,

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Speaker 2: but you know a mountain when you see it, You

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Speaker 2: know a mountain.

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Speaker 4: When you see it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, some places, like in I think in the UK,

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Speaker 3: I think it's a thousand feet it has to be,

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Speaker 3: so it's not a mountain if we're going by like

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Speaker 3: British standards.

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Speaker 1: Right, But obviously I see you take this very seriously.

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Speaker 1: I do.

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Speaker 3: I'm livid, Sophia. I've never been anything because it's like anger,

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Speaker 3: but I still find it frustrating.

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Speaker 2: Because it's just like, okay, like if we were anyone else,

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Speaker 2: like if it was just like a like I would

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Speaker 2: be like, oh I get it, bro like yeah yeah,

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Speaker 2: not it's mountain, Like.

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Speaker 4: You got a mountain?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, good king, you know what I'm saying, Like, I'll

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Speaker 2: be on your side, But like this fool like nah,

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Speaker 2: fam ain't no damn mountain.

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Speaker 4: It is a hill.

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Speaker 1: If this, if this, if this mountain verus hill issue

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Speaker 1: is so important to you, Robert, and it makes you

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Speaker 1: so livid. I just want you to know I would

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Speaker 1: die on that hill for you.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you, yes, so thank you.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: I looked into it a little further, by which I

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Speaker 3: mean I read an article on adventure dot Com but

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Speaker 3: spelled without the e in the middle of adventure which

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Speaker 3: He points out that both the Oxford English Dictionary and

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Speaker 3: the American English, Merry and Webster Dictionary to find a

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Speaker 3: mountain is a land mass that projects conspicuously above the

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Speaker 3: surrounding area. So they do literally say it's a vibe thing, right, Does.

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Speaker 2: It look like a mountain toew? Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 3: The USGS, the United States Geological Survey used to have

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Speaker 3: a minimum height of a thousand feet for a mountain,

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Speaker 3: but they don't do that anymore. I'm sure Big Mountain

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Speaker 3: got to them, you know, all that mountain money coming

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Speaker 3: to the four anyway, Thomas Jefferson at least got mountain

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Speaker 3: vibes from Monticello, because that's what he always called it,

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Speaker 3: even though it's a hill. Jefferson inherited the property at

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Speaker 3: age twenty one. It had been owned by his father,

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Speaker 3: but he had loved the land since boyhood. The people

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Speaker 3: like he so basically he starts building in seventeen sixty eight.

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Speaker 3: I think that's just when he's finally in like a

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Speaker 3: financial situation where he feels like he can afford to

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Speaker 3: do that. And I say he starts building, he has

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Speaker 3: the people that he owns built.

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Speaker 4: He does not do that.

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Speaker 3: He which he does sometimes hire people too, Like he

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Speaker 3: has laborers come in to do parts of it.

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Speaker 4: Obviously.

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Speaker 3: One of the interesting things is a lot people are

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Speaker 3: fascinated with Monticello.

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Speaker 4: It's like it's a whole deal.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things people will point out is

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Speaker 3: that he is like he designs the whole thing himself.

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Speaker 3: Like he does He's not like a professional architect but

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Speaker 3: he like becomes one because he has like no training,

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Speaker 3: but he drafts blueprints for Monticello, and normally when people

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Speaker 3: are like self proclaimed architects, it's a bad thing. He

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Speaker 3: actually seems to have been pretty good at this, and

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Speaker 3: he like becomes he does like he designs a bunch

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Speaker 3: of professional buildings later in life. Because I started the

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Speaker 3: series by noting that he was kind of the ancient

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Speaker 3: Roman equivalent of a web like he's he's obsessed with

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Speaker 3: ancient Rome, the way that like some people are obsessed

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Speaker 3: with Japan over in the US today. So it's based

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Speaker 3: a lot on like ancient Greek and Roman sort of

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Speaker 3: classic designs. And he, you know, this is like, at

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Speaker 3: least in the things that he expresses through his writing,

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Speaker 3: Monticello was like the center of his being. He wrote

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Speaker 3: about the property. I am happy nowhere else and in

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Speaker 3: no other society, and all my wishes end where I

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Speaker 3: hope my days will end at Monticello. Now the reason

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Speaker 3: for his happiness that that's always portrayed romantically, he was

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Speaker 3: just so in love with this, this land and this

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Speaker 3: beautiful house that he built. I think what's actually happening

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Speaker 3: here is a little more sinister because not that he's

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Speaker 3: just like I really love this hill. I really love

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Speaker 3: this hill.

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Speaker 4: I really like my living room.

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Speaker 3: No, it's the real world constantly falls short of Jefferson's beliefs, right,

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Speaker 3: Those beliefs are kind of incoherent, but he is like

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Speaker 3: a dreamer. He expresses these kind of like constant revolutionary

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Speaker 3: fantasies that never quite come true. Right, the French Revolution.

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Speaker 3: We can argue if it's better or not, but like

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Speaker 3: it doesn't work out the way everyone hoped it would

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Speaker 3: when it.

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Speaker 2: Started, right exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And he has this obsession with like Cato's idea

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Speaker 3: of the idyllic free farmer is the backbone of a

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Speaker 3: mighty republic. And also all these weird beliefs about these

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Speaker 3: independent sacks and explorers who'd founded the colonies, and like

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Speaker 3: none of that's real. And he wants to kind of

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Speaker 3: make these dreams that he has from the things that

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Speaker 3: he's read. He wants to like build. He's kind of

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Speaker 3: the same thing a lot of cult leaders want, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: I just want to go out into the woods and

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Speaker 3: build my own society, a perfect utopia right now. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: in modern America you can do that, and people do,

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Speaker 3: but you have to be a cult leader, right, you

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Speaker 3: have to get a bunch of people to like follow you,

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Speaker 3: otherwise you're not going to be able to build your utopia.

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Speaker 3: Thomas just owns people like That's what he's doing here though, right,

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Speaker 3: he is, he is. This really is very much like

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Speaker 3: a cult leader motivation, but just using slaves. Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: hadn't thought about it that way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, like a place that you could pretend it's

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Speaker 2: like you know, and it becomes like you saying that now,

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Speaker 2: like becomes such a part of the mythos of the South,

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Speaker 2: even like the you know, like the Lost Cause thing

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Speaker 2: I mean that we did where it's just like you

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Speaker 2: want this like Whistling Dixie, you know, lazy afternoon sip

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Speaker 2: and sea tea like kind of lifestyle where we could

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Speaker 2: just hang out and talk about the new scuttle bucket.

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Speaker 2: It's just a perfect like world on our Sunday tea

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Speaker 2: on the porch while we're trying not to catch the vapis.

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Speaker 2: You know, Yes, you just want that, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that is that's what's happening here. Jefferson starts,

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Speaker 3: you know, has construction started in seventeen sixty eight, He

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Speaker 3: moves there for the first time in seventeen seventy. Because

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Speaker 3: their old home, Shadwell, had burned down. They lived at

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Speaker 3: first in an outbuilding until the main house was finished

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Speaker 3: enough to allow occupation. Jefferson occupied the house there with

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Speaker 3: his wife Martha for about ten years before she passes

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Speaker 3: on and he takes a break to.

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Speaker 4: Become French for a while.

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Speaker 3: The architecture that he witnessed in Paris inspired further changes

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Speaker 3: to the property when he returned in seventeen eighty nine,

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Speaker 3: and as we noted, he pays for that by using

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Speaker 3: the people that he owns as collateral. His goal when

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Speaker 3: he comes back is to kind of retire from public

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Speaker 3: life and live in Monticello. That only lasts like three

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Speaker 3: or four years. Like he's never actually good at, you know,

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Speaker 3: retiring and given up public life. But when it gets

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Speaker 3: home from France, he's like, I'm so tired of the

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Speaker 3: the weariness of the world.

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Speaker 4: I just want to.

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Speaker 3: Retreat to have a lie, Yeah, having a bullshit all

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Speaker 3: these French exhausting yeah. Yeah, to a lie to someone else, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 3: So part of what's going on here with Monticello is

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Speaker 3: he has built for himself or he has had built

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Speaker 3: for himself a home that includes he's almost made a

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Speaker 3: smart house, right. It is filled with ultra modern amenities

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Speaker 3: and a lot of things that you couldn't actually have

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Speaker 3: in a house until the age of like automation and

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Speaker 3: like machines and electricity, using like human beings to actually

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Speaker 3: fulfill that role. And I was unaware about this. People

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Speaker 3: always talk about, like, how what an architectural marvel it is,

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Speaker 3: but like the idea that he has built a slavery

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Speaker 3: powered smart house was not expressed to me.

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Speaker 4: Wow, that's phrase, that's what it is.

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Speaker 3: You're right, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna read you a quote

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Speaker 3: from the Smithsonian magazine article by Henry Winsack. The mansion

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Speaker 3: sits atop a long tunnel through which slaves unseen hurried

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Speaker 3: back and forth, carrying platters of food, fresh tableware, ice, beer, wine,

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Speaker 3: and linens, while above them, twenty or thirty or forty

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Speaker 3: guests sat listening to Jefferson's dinner table conversation. At one

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Speaker 3: end of the tunnel lay the ice house. At the

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Speaker 3: other the kitchen, a hive of ceaseless activity where the

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Speaker 3: enslaved cooks and their helpers produced one course after another

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Speaker 3: during dinner, Jefferson would open a panel in the side

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Speaker 3: of the fireplace, insert an empty wine bottle, and seconds

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Speaker 3: later pull out a full bottle. We can imagine he

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Speaker 3: would delay explaining how this magic took place until an

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Speaker 3: astonished guest put the question to him. The panel concealed

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Speaker 3: a narrow dumbwaiter that descended into the basement. When Jefferson

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Speaker 3: put an empty bottle in the compartment, a slave waiting

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Speaker 3: in the basement pulled the dumbwaiter down, moved the empty

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Speaker 3: inserted a fresh bottle, and sent it up to the

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Speaker 3: master a matter of seconds. Similarly, platters of hot food

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Speaker 3: magically appeared on a rough volving door fitted with shelves

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Speaker 3: and us and the used plates disappeared from sight. On

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Speaker 3: the same contrivance, guests could not see or hear any

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Speaker 3: of the activity with the leaks between the visible world

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Speaker 3: and the invisible that magically produced Jefferson's abundance.

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Speaker 2: He made it Disneyland.

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Speaker 3: He made a Disneyland. Yeah he's got Yeah, that's crazy, like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's Disneyland. Yeah huh, Yeah, it's a Disneyland and it's

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Speaker 3: all powered by slavery. And I I didn't like I

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Speaker 3: knew that his life, you know, relied heavily on slavery,

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Speaker 3: or I didn't realize like he built like a magical house.

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Speaker 2: He figured out how to hide him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't even see the people serve because that's uncomfortable, right,

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Speaker 3: It's really awkward to like have to look at slavery

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Speaker 3: like yeah, like, especially.

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Speaker 2: As you're discussing the tenants in the in the nuances

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Speaker 2: of liberty, right you know, so it's like we can't

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Speaker 2: just be like, oh, out in the open about it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you've just got your magical wine box that keeps

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Speaker 3: being filled with bottles, Yeah, Disneyland.

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Speaker 4: Yeah kind of.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And in learning this, it kind of brought Jefferson into

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Speaker 3: clarity for me. You know, there's this how can he

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Speaker 3: write so well about the concept of liberty while still

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Speaker 3: owning people?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: Why did he ultimately fail? He used to It seems

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Speaker 3: like he used to when he was younger, have some

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Speaker 3: convictions about abolition, and then he failed, Like why? And

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Speaker 3: it's it's I think part of it at least is

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Speaker 3: because using the people he owned let him mimic aspects

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Speaker 3: of what we would call a first world lifestyle with

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Speaker 3: eighteenth century technology, right, Like it's.

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Speaker 2: Kind of rad. Yeah, Yeah, it's kind of rad to

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Speaker 2: stick a wine bottle into a wall and then a

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Speaker 2: new one comes out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that, honestly, that makes him more

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Speaker 3: comprehensible because we do all see we all know that, Like, shit,

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Speaker 3: that's really convenient, you know, like have like Amazon Prime

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Speaker 3: or whatever. Right, Yes, great being able to get a

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Speaker 3: thing the next day, and you know why you're able

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Speaker 3: to write, Yes, access to all of these like wonderful

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Speaker 3: luxury items like comes through a lot of like not

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Speaker 3: just environmental waste that's you know, we are going to

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Speaker 3: pay for one day, but like a lot of human suffering,

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Speaker 3: and you're all pretty yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like I totally love this, and I think this is

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Speaker 2: the like this is the big This is a big

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Speaker 2: takeaway because it's like, you know again like the answer,

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Speaker 2: you know, motivations of stuff. Again, my organizing premise is

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Speaker 2: like history is just us back then, So like the

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Speaker 2: answer is actually as simple and as obvious as it's.

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Speaker 2: It's not a deep mystery. It's this made my life easier. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I know it's wrong, but god damn it, I

289
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Speaker 2: really I really could use a new pencil holder. So

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Speaker 2: it needs to come right now. I can't wait two days.

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Speaker 2: It has to come right now.

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Speaker 3: I understand that this is the great evil of my era,

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Speaker 3: but I'm not walking down to the wine cellar right all.

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Speaker 3: It makes it so petty but also so comprehensible, I think, exactly. Yeah,

295
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Speaker 3: Monticello has been a famous property for generations, and it's

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Speaker 3: innovative design gets sort of folded in with long standing

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Speaker 3: myths about Jefferson's genius. A classic example would be this

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Speaker 3: quote from John F. Kennedy during a dinner honoring Nobel

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Speaker 3: Prize winners at the White House. I think this is

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Speaker 3: the most extraordinary collection of talent of human knowledge that

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Speaker 3: has ever been gathered together at the White House, with

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Speaker 3: the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone. And

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Speaker 3: you'll you run into that quote a lot because it's

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Speaker 3: it's that like Aaron Sorkin era, like American mythos, like

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Speaker 3: our great like these men were really like Titanic minds.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, it's weird both because like, yeah, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I don't see as much evidence for genius as you do.

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Speaker 3: Like was he a really good writer? Yeah, absolutely, but

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Speaker 3: like I don't know genius. I don't even know if

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Speaker 3: I'd call him a genius writer, right, Like yeah, But

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Speaker 3: more to the point, that's also that's a shitty thing

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Speaker 3: for JFK to say to a bunch of Nobel Prize winners,

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Speaker 3: because the nineteen sixty two Nobel Prize winners list included

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Speaker 3: John Steinbeck, who was the better writer the Jefferson.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,800
Speaker 3: It included Linus Paulin, who had attempted to end the

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Speaker 3: nuclear arms race and like done, made significant progress in

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Speaker 3: doing that. Included Francis Crick, James Watkins, and Maurice Wilkins,

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Speaker 3: who put out a paper describing the helical structure of

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Speaker 3: DNA for the first time. So I actually think that

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Speaker 3: crew is a lot more impressive than the guy who

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Speaker 3: had been to the wine cellar powered by enslaved people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, like a like it's like you say that

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Speaker 2: line and then you stop and look at the room,

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Speaker 2: like when Thomas Jefferson died dined alone. Yeah, he get

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Speaker 2: it because he's the smartest guy ever.

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Speaker 1: Get it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you guys just figured out DNA. He figured out

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Speaker 3: how to get wine bottles up to his house without

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Speaker 3: looking at people.

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Speaker 2: Listen, he figured out how to hide evil. That's what he.

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Speaker 3: Man so as it happens. Obviously, the whole machine that

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00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,760
Speaker 3: was Monticello was powered entirely by the work of child

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Speaker 3: slaves in particular, and by powered, I mean that's what

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00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:18,000
Speaker 3: funded his lifestyle in a very specific way, Like that's

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00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,000
Speaker 3: generally true in that like that was just a thing

337
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,680
Speaker 3: across later, like specifically, young boys are what pay for

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00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 3: Jefferson's lifestyle. You get hints of this in more casual

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Speaker 3: popular coverage of Monticello when rite up i found on

340
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,200
Speaker 3: history dot Com notes at a time when most brick

341
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,920
Speaker 3: was still imported from England, Jefferson chose to mold and

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00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,560
Speaker 3: bake his own bricks with clay found on the property.

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00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,119
Speaker 3: Monticello's grounds provided most of the lumber, stone and limestone,

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Speaker 3: and even the nails used to construct the buildings were

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Speaker 3: manufactured on site. Now that kind of makes it sound

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Speaker 3: like Jefferson is like a shop local pioneers, an off

347
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Speaker 3: grid king, right, Like he's built this. Wow, they even

348
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Speaker 3: made their own nails. That is leaving that description. The

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00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 3: way they talk about the nails leaves out something important,

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Speaker 3: which is that Thomas Jefferson is horribly in debt and

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Speaker 3: because he is not going to work with you, and

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Speaker 3: I would consider a job. He needs a way to

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Speaker 3: cover his bills with labor performed on the property.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Jefferson's image is as like a farmer, right, because he's

356
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Speaker 3: obsessed and he writes a lot like Cato did about

357
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Speaker 3: this Yaleman farmer. Right, So you might expect him to

358
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,800
Speaker 3: have made his living by having slaves work his farm

359
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,679
Speaker 3: men grow crops, which is what I had always assumed. Right,

360
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,240
Speaker 3: he didn't try to do this. But he's a terrible farmer,

361
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,720
Speaker 3: like he's dog shit at the His job is the

362
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Speaker 3: business side of this, right, and.

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Speaker 2: His business at farming.

364
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Speaker 4: Yeah.

365
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Speaker 2: Oh, so he out here saying like, I've made millions

366
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Speaker 2: of dollars on my online store, and I'll teach you

367
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Speaker 2: how to do it right. Where's your I've never seen

368
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,080
Speaker 2: your store. Yeah. And if you're making millions of dollars

369
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,160
Speaker 2: on the store, why are you're teaching classes?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? That he is.

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Speaker 4: He is the old time.

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Speaker 3: The equivalent of that guy sitting in is like garage

373
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Speaker 3: next to a Lamborghini in a bookshelf, being likely a

374
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,879
Speaker 3: book every day. Yeah, do you yelling at you on

375
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,119
Speaker 3: YouTube to send him money so he can tell you

376
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,880
Speaker 3: how to do drop shipping or whatever the fuck. Yeah,

377
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:18,400
Speaker 3: basically now, so you know, he does try to make

378
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,359
Speaker 3: it as a farmer in the business of farming. The

379
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,760
Speaker 3: first crop he really tries is tobacco. Now, the problem

380
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:25,840
Speaker 3: with tobacco is that it's.

381
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Speaker 4: Dog shit for the soil.

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Speaker 2: Right.

383
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Speaker 3: If you just at growing a little bit because you

384
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:30,720
Speaker 3: want to smoke, you can do okay, as long as

385
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 3: you like really know what you're doing and like, yeah,

386
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,400
Speaker 3: you know you understand how to like regenerate the soil

387
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,920
Speaker 3: and stuff. But like tobacco farming on an industrial level,

388
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 3: which is what he and everyone else is trying to

389
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,359
Speaker 3: do because they want to make money. And that's the

390
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,440
Speaker 3: same thing Washington does, the same thing a lot of

391
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:45,800
Speaker 3: people do.

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Speaker 2: Right.

393
00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,919
Speaker 3: The climate is actually changing in Virginia during this period,

394
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 3: so like tobacco becomes something that gets done elsewhere, and

395
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,320
Speaker 3: a lot of them move over to wheat. But the

396
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,399
Speaker 3: other problem that Jefferson has is that Monticello is, you know,

397
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,760
Speaker 3: a hill whatever, but it's like an alpine terrain, righty,

398
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 3: and the soil is bad in that kind of a place.

399
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,200
Speaker 3: You get a hint of this, and like they made

400
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 3: their own bricks for Monticello out of like local clay. Well,

401
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,119
Speaker 3: if there's a lot of clay in the ground, it's

402
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,639
Speaker 3: probably not great for industrial agriculture, right, You kind of

403
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 3: want soil more than clay.

404
00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:20,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't grow clay, guys.

405
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's not not very good to do right now,

406
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,639
Speaker 3: Monticello is he probably he could have if this if

407
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,040
Speaker 3: this was like, you know, somebody who was just trying

408
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 3: to live, you know, off grid or I mean there

409
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,119
Speaker 3: was no grid back then. Everybody lived off grid. But

410
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:35,920
Speaker 3: if there's somebody who was just trying to like live

411
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,399
Speaker 3: in an independent farm and like make all of their

412
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 3: own food, you could do that because they had enough

413
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,800
Speaker 3: land there. But Jefferson needs a business that's going to

414
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 3: get him out of debt, right, so he gets very

415
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 3: excited at first with wheat because wheat is the crop

416
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 3: that wheat is in a lot a lot of ways.

417
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:57,880
Speaker 3: What revitalizes slavery is a profitable industry, right because it's

418
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,200
Speaker 3: it requires a lot. It's for one thing, it's not

419
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,520
Speaker 3: nearly as bad for the soil, So you can do

420
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 3: it a lot more. You have you can at least

421
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 3: have the option of kind of doing it indefinitely without

422
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,680
Speaker 3: the soil failing if you know what you're doing. It

423
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,879
Speaker 3: requires a lot less human labor than tobacco, so you

424
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 3: can grow more wheat with less people, or, as Jefferson

425
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 3: sees it, you can free up a chunk of the

426
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,480
Speaker 3: workforce that you own and have them do other things

427
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 3: that make you right while still selling wheat and making

428
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 3: money off of that wheat is also it requires there's

429
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 3: a more like regimented process to grow and harvest and wheat,

430
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 3: which encourages more on the job training and kind of

431
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 3: a more stratified system for like slavery in these in

432
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,920
Speaker 3: these communities that you've got. And Jefferson wanted Mont to

433
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:46,960
Speaker 3: sell it a function.

434
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Speaker 4: As a community.

435
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 3: It's like an independent little society, which means he needed

436
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,440
Speaker 3: blacksmiths to forge and repair tools. He needed people to

437
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,879
Speaker 3: spin thread and make clothing. There was a tinsmithing operation

438
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 3: on the property. There was a cooper ridge making barrels,

439
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 3: and what we see here. I think it's not worthless

440
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 3: to like tie us to that common kind of rich

441
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,120
Speaker 3: white person dream of having your own intentional off grid community.

442
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 4: In the mountains.

443
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,240
Speaker 3: Only like again, he's not it's not like a cult,

444
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 3: right because they don't have the choice to be there.

445
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you also didn't.

446
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 4: But it is like this, yeah, no, no, you're just

447
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 4: telling people to do it right now.

448
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, the closer you work to the family, like physically,

449
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 3: the closer you are to the house on the top

450
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,920
Speaker 3: of the hill, the higher your place in the slave hierarchy.

451
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 3: Is right, some of the people who are like working

452
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 3: in the house or who were doing stuff like being

453
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 3: a blacksmith would even receive gratuities, as Jefferson called it.

454
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 3: That's what he wrote it out down this which is

455
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 3: basically small amounts of money as like an incentive for

456
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 3: them to work.

457
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:45,119
Speaker 2: Right.

458
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 3: Jefferson took a system for human bondage for agricultural profit,

459
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,360
Speaker 3: and he modernized it into a semi industrial society, still

460
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 3: based around slavery, but also much more complex than just

461
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 3: kind of these like big arms that had existed previously.

462
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 3: And the anchor of profit for Monticello was his nail factory.

463
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 3: That's what makes the money at Monticello is he has

464
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 3: like an industrial factory for producing huge quantities of nails. Wow,

465
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 3: and the best people to make nails are little kids

466
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 3: on No. Part of why he lands on nails as

467
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 3: a profit engine is that in the tobacco era, large

468
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 3: numbers of children were needed in the field because their

469
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 3: tiny hands could kill the bugs. Right, Like, there was

470
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 3: a lot of child labor that was necessary for tobacco.

471
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 3: It's really not for wheat. But obviously Jefferson isn't gonna

472
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 3: let all this perfectly good child labor go to waste.

473
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 3: He's not excited about this because like, oh, good, these

474
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 3: children get to have a childhood. He's excited because, oh,

475
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 3: I can work them in something more profitable, you know,

476
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 3: oh hell yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. In his Farm Book,

477
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 3: Jefferson writes this to describe the standard plan for the

478
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 3: children born into his property. Quote children till ten years

479
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 3: old to serve as nurses. From ten to six the

480
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 3: boys make nails, the girls spin. At sixteen, go into

481
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 3: the ground or learn trades.

482
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:07,479
Speaker 2: O sheesh.

483
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 3: And it's you know, all this stuff in the Farm

484
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 3: Book is a big part of what Winesack bases his

485
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 3: book Master of the Mountain on. We had a lot

486
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 3: of this info about how he's using these like this

487
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 3: child labor system that he consciously crafts for profit, and

488
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 3: it gets hidden. Like one of his biographers, basically, he

489
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 3: doesn't destroy the work, but he just doesn't write about

490
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 3: it when he's like analyzing the farm book for his

491
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 3: for a biography on Jefferson. He like a conscious choice

492
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 3: is made by a lot of historians just to not

493
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 3: go into as much detail as we actually had about

494
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 3: what Jefferson was doing at Monticello because it's ugly.

495
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're so precious about it. Yeah, like there's I'm

496
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,360
Speaker 2: telling you precious about him specifically.

497
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: It doesn't it doesn't quite make sense, right, Like why

498
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 1: is he the equivalent of the white boy of the

499
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: month on tik talk but for all of America in death?

500
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I think the way they want to portray

501
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 3: him is like I keep going back to an artist,

502
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 3: but like a great musician with a heroin problem. That's

503
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 3: how they want to portray him as, Like, well, he

504
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 3: was great and genius, he was brilliant, he has this

505
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 3: he has this fatal flaw, you know, and like that's tragic,

506
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 3: but it doesn't mean that, you know, he didn't do

507
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 3: a lot of great stuff. Yeah, but like you know,

508
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 3: heroin it could be bad for you, but like you're

509
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 3: not harming other people in a way that is evil necessary?

510
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, multiple families, yeah, come on, Yeah.

511
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, like you can destroy like fundamentally your damn it.

512
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 3: And that's kind of how they treat it. Like, yeah,

513
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 3: he had this thing that was like this fatal flaw

514
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 3: where like, no, the man built his own industrial society

515
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 3: around child labor for profit, Like that's what he did.

516
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 3: He knew exactly what he was doing, and he documented it.

517
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 3: Now in that line, he said that like yad, once

518
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 3: everyone's sixteen, they go into the ground or learn trades.

519
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 3: Going into the ground means you're on the lowest rung,

520
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 3: right of the hierarchy you work in in the field, right, Yeah,

521
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 3: And learning a trade, as I said, is like your

522
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 3: best path if you're one of these people to like

523
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,479
Speaker 3: some kind of autonomy, right, because the blacksmith, you kind

524
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 3: of just need to let him be the blacksmith, right

525
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 3: you know.

526
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

527
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 3: So if you were a boy before you had chance

528
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 3: to do either of those things, you worked in the nailery, right,

529
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 3: you made nails.

530
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 4: And that quote I read.

531
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 3: Earlier makes it sound like the nails are just kind

532
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 3: of part of Jefferson's plan for a self sufficient community,

533
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 3: but the reality is that they are where his money.

534
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 4: Is coming from.

535
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 3: For quite a while, the most successful profit earning business

536
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 3: in Monticello, and alone paid for all of his family's food.

537
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 3: The nailer reopened in seventeen ninety four, and in a

538
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 3: seventeen ninety five letter, Jefferson explained his reasons for starting

539
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 3: it in a letter to a French friend. In returning

540
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 3: home after an absence of ten years, I found my

541
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 3: farm so much deranged that I saw evidently that it

542
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 3: was necessary for me to find some other resource.

543
00:25:58,680 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 4: In the meantime.

544
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 3: Cancluded at length to begin a manufacture of nails, which

545
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: needs little or no capital. And I now employ a

546
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 3: dozen little boys from ten to sixteen years of age,

547
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 3: overlooking all the details of their business myself, and drawing

548
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 3: from it a profit on which I can get along

549
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 3: until I put my farms into a course of yielding profit.

550
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 2: Two things I never thought about is, oh, yeah, nails

551
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 2: have to be made, and just you just go to

552
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: store and get nails, Like I forgot about that. There's that.

553
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: And then secondly I was like, oh, yeah, what was

554
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 2: his farm doing for the ten years he was going?

555
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 2: That was another thing I just I didn't think about

556
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 2: it right now, like yeah, what what? Like who was

557
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 2: was is there any right on it? Who was there?

558
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: Like and why didn't thereby.

559
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 4: Leave Like, yeah, well, we'll talk about that.

560
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 3: He has white people who are employed as overseers.

561
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 4: Who he is.

562
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 3: Some of them are like kind of business partners of his,

563
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 3: but like as part of their job and like being

564
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 3: a partner, they get a cut of like the profits

565
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 3: from the wheat or whatever, but they also have to

566
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 3: manage the overseers who live on the property and a

567
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: responsible pity and line.

568
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 2: Right, you knew that propaganda overseers.

569
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we'll talk a little bit more about that

570
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 3: later because we have some of his letters to his

571
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 3: overseers while he's in Paris, so we actually know when

572
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 3: he's talking about liberty some of the things he's directing

573
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 3: them to do, and they're pretty ugly. But the other things, yeah, yeah,

574
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 3: you're right, you know, I don't know. I don't have

575
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 3: a good way to lead into the ads. Just just

576
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 3: listen to the ads and we'll come back and talk

577
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 3: about nails and crimes against humanity and we're back. So

578
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 3: Jefferson is managing you know, Monticello from Paris, as we

579
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 3: talked about through like letters and stuff that he sends back,

580
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 3: and the other thing he's doing in Paris is he's

581
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 3: spending shitloads of money and going even more into debt

582
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 3: because he is just not actually capable of living on

583
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 3: like a normal allowance. Right Like Again, for all of

584
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 3: his talk about like autonomy and self discipline, he's never

585
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 3: able to like live within his means. Yes, I always

586
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 3: find funny when he leaves for public office in seventeen

587
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 3: ninety four. He comes back in seventeen eighty nine, but

588
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 3: he leaves public office for a while in seventeen ninety four.

589
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 3: Jefferson is horribly in debt, right Like, he doesn't he

590
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 3: goes even more into debt in France, and he doesn't

591
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 3: get out of it in those like five years where

592
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 3: he's back in the US, but he's still kind of

593
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 3: like working in politics. And around that time, Jefferson states

594
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 3: publicly that he wants to retire, and he kind of

595
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 3: frames this as like I need to get away from,

596
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 3: you know, Washington. I had to get away from like this,

597
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 3: this cutthroat political world so that I can be a farmer.

598
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 3: And he kind of compares himself to Cincinnatus, who is this?

599
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of Cincinnatus?

600
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 4: Prop No, he was this.

601
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 3: He was a Roman general who, like Romans, used to

602
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 3: like elect a dictator, right yeah, when they had like

603
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 3: a problem, right, like there's a war, we're getting invaded,

604
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: we need a guy to be in charge for six months.

605
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 3: Cincinnatus was this like farmer who he got all this

606
00:28:58,240 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: power because he was the only guy who could win

607
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 3: this war, and then he gave it all up because

608
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 3: what he really wanted to be was a farmer. That's

609
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 3: what he loved more than anything. I actually don't that

610
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: may actually be what Cincinnatus did, but Jefferson likes to

611
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 3: compare himself to Cincinnatus.

612
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: Yeah that's like no.

613
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 3: One needed you in DC, bro, And like, by the way,

614
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 3: you suck at farming.

615
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, the game needs me, guys.

616
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, deaf Cincinnatus couldn't grow shit.

617
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: Yeah how about that?

618
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 4: Uh huh.

619
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 3: Now, the real reason why he like basically goes into

620
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 3: retirement is that he needs to get a handle on

621
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: his debts. He talks to his colleagues in Washington about, like,

622
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 3: I actually can't keep working in politics. I really got

623
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 3: to like fix Monticello, like otherwise I'm gonna lose everything

624
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: in American Sphinx Ellis estimates Jefferson's debt at several hundred

625
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 3: thousand dollars. Now, this was a common state of affair

626
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 3: for wealthy quote unquote wealthy Virginia planters. Right, but it's

627
00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 3: embarrassing too. And Jefferson attempted to defray his responsibility for

628
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 3: his bad economic situation by blaming his overseers for not

629
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 3: hitting the workers enough. Now it's such a.

630
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: Continued but yeah, yeah it.

631
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: Is.

632
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 3: It's such like a No, it's not that like I'm

633
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 3: planning things badly. It's not that I picked a bad

634
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 3: location for a working farm, right, Like, fundamentally a lot

635
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 3: of this comes down to Monticello is a bad place

636
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: to do what he's trying to do. But like he

637
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: can't accept any of that, so he's got to find

638
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 3: someone to blame. And it's like, well, my overseers aren't

639
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 3: strict enough, you know, that's got to be.

640
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 4: That's got to be what's going on?

641
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 2: Taught him?

642
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: Location, location location.

643
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: No, you know, it's middle management. You know these managers

644
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: they don't want to work. Did you hire all them?

645
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: Was it?

646
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 4: Yeah?

647
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: You hired them all?

648
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, and so this is entirely you yeah, yeah, yeah,

649
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: so and I you know, I think it's one of

650
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: those things he can't admit this public. I think he knows,

651
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: and part of why we I think he knows is

652
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 3: that he writes this in a letter to his daughter

653
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 3: during this period. The unprofitable condition of Virginia estates in general,

654
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 3: leaves it next to impossible for the holder of one

655
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 3: to avoid ruin, and this condition will continue until some

656
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: change takes place in the mode of working them. In

657
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 3: the meantime, nothing can save us and our children from

658
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 3: beggary but a determination to get a year beforehand and

659
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 3: restrain ourselves vigorously to the clear profits of the last.

660
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 3: And I find that fascinating because he's admitting, well, it

661
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 3: seems like none of these big Virginia farms, that our

662
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 3: whole culture is based on, these huge plantations, basically none

663
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 3: of them work right, none of them can like actually

664
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: make a profit. We're all horribly in debt and it's

665
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: getting worse every year.

666
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: Uh huh.

667
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 3: Maybe our whole culture is wrong. Maybe we built a

668
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 3: bad society. He's like, no, we need more financial discipline.

669
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're not. Like, I don't know, guys, Maybe

670
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: there's maybe just ain't working.

671
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 4: Yeah. Maybe we built a civilization and we should start over.

672
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: I love it.

673
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 4: Maybe without the slaves.

674
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: I hate it, but I love it.

675
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

676
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, So he refused to actually live within his means,

677
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 3: and he refused to sell his lands past a certain

678
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 3: point because he saw his land as his only real wealth,

679
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 3: and thus that's what he was going to pass down

680
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 3: to his kids. He did attempt to make a business

681
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 3: out of wheat, but he was dogshit at this, just

682
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 3: like he was dogshit at everything he tried to do

683
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 3: with farms. Jefferson actually operated seven farms on his vast holdings,

684
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 3: but only about ten percent of the acreagch he owned

685
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 3: was actually under cultivation. So when he hit upon nails

686
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: as a business, he treated it as a life preserver,

687
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 3: making it the focus of his day to day exertions.

688
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 3: This passage from American Sphinx describes how much of a

689
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 3: personal focus Jefferson made of his new nail business.

690
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 4: Quote.

691
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 3: Every morning except Sunday, he walked over to the nailery

692
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 3: soon after dawn to weigh out the nail rod for

693
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 3: each worker, then returned at dusk to weigh the nails

694
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 3: each had made and calculated how much iron had been

695
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 3: wasted by the most and least efficient workers. Isaac Jefferson

696
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 3: recalled that his former master made it clear to all

697
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 3: hands that the nailery was a personal priority and that

698
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: special privileges would be accorded the best nail makers. He

699
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: gave the boys in the nail factory a pound of

700
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 3: meat a week. He gave them that worked the best

701
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 3: a suit of red or blue, and encouraged them mightily.

702
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 3: Jefferson even added the nailary to his familiar refrain in

703
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: the pastoral mode, I am so much immersed in farming

704
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 3: and nail making. He reported in the fall of seventeen

705
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 3: ninety four that politics are entirely banished from my mind. Now, wow,

706
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 3: this is not I think it's worth emphasizing, like a

707
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 3: tiny picturesque blacksmith shop. This is a little factory. Right Yeah,

708
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 3: it is dirty, and it is loud, and it is

709
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 3: maybe not dangerous compared to the work most adults were doing,

710
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 3: but it is very dangerous work for children.

711
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: Right Like.

712
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 3: It makes money though, right Like, it's actually very profitable.

713
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 3: And this is kind of another example of him being

714
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 3: a hypocrite, because he writes a lot about like industrialization

715
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 3: and like what's happening in you know, back in Great

716
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 3: Britain during the early Industrial Revolution, is like hideous and

717
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 3: he has all this like these hippie back to the

718
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 3: land ethos that he expresses a lot in writing. But

719
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 3: the only real money making venture he was good at

720
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 3: was like a nail factory.

721
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: Industrializing is industrializing?

722
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, a child powered nail factory.

723
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, bro, Like, come on, man, where's your self awareness?

724
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 4: The great man?

725
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just gone.

726
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 3: It also represented an efficiency that he found attractive. He

727
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 3: seems to have been bothered on some fundamental level by

728
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 3: the idea that enslaved young boys would spend their time idle,

729
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 3: having like a childhood or whatever. He wrote that the

730
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 3: nailery made him happy because quote it would employ a

731
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 3: parcel of boys who would otherwise be idle. That ellis

732
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 3: quote I included earlier includes a line about how he

733
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 3: would reward his best workers with extra meat, you know,

734
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 3: better clothes, But Winesack points out that he really treated

735
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 3: them as part of like a mechanism by which he

736
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 3: managed his society, like this is a machine to him,

737
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 3: that's what's happening here.

738
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 4: Quote.

739
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 3: Those who did well received a new suit of clothes,

740
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 3: and they it also expect to graduate, as it were,

741
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 3: to training as artisans, rather than going in the ground

742
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 3: as common field slaves. Some nail boys rose in the

743
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 3: plantation hierarchy to become house servants, blacksmiths, carpenters, or Cooper's.

744
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, you stratify, you stratify, Yeah, the slaves

745
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 2: in a way that pits us against each other. Yeah nah,

746
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 2: it's and then you're fighting for scraps. Yeah, yeah, you're

747
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: doing like there's there's that version of it, the evil version.

748
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,959
Speaker 2: And there's also the fact that like you are using

749
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: this almost as a training program to to fill out

750
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: positions in the rest of the property, right, like, and

751
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 2: that's part of those traps. And it's so efficient, like

752
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 2: this this wheel by which he yeah, no, I get it.

753
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 2: These are transferable skills. You know that, if he were

754
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: a decent man, would be like, I'm giving you job training,

755
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 2: so you can go anywhere. You're not to make you

756
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: can go anywhere, get a job. You know what I'm saying, Like, yeah,

757
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 2: but that's not what you're doing because you can't go Yeah, yeah.

758
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 4: That is right.

759
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 3: So two months after starting the name factory, he wrote

760
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 3: that it quote now provides completely for the maintenance of

761
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 3: my family. The first two months of labor by his

762
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 3: nail boys prayed for the entire yearly grocery bill of

763
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 3: Jefferson's family. Right, that's how big a deal this is

764
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 3: for him. In seventeen ninety six, his gross income from

765
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 3: nails was like two thousand dollars, which is, you know,

766
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 3: pretty good money. Back then, his main competitor, this says

767
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 3: a lot, was the local prison.

768
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

769
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah.

770
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: Oh the hell is this world? Okay, so fucked up?

771
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can see why his biographers for years would

772
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 3: like hide this shit, right, yeah, Like it doesn't match

773
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 3: any of the other things that they want people to

774
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 3: believe about the man.

775
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: They were like, if we take out, you know, the

776
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 1: fact that he was a pedophile, an abusive piece of shit,

777
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: a terrible business owner, yeah.

778
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, they wrote his life the way he wrote the Bible.

779
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 3: Yeah right, yeah, yeah exactly, kind.

780
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 2: Of remove all the shit I don't like.

781
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, it's it's it's something else.

782
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,760
Speaker 3: So it's probably worth noting that the nailery did involve

783
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 3: labor from some young free white boys as well. They

784
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 3: were paid fifty cents a day on Saturdays to feed

785
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 3: the fire that were only allowed to work at Saturdays

786
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 3: because they had school to go to right. Yeah, so

787
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 3: Jefferson is capable of understanding yeah right, like what the

788
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 3: actual decent thing.

789
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: To do would be a cave man guys.

790
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well there is One of the stories

791
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 3: here I found is like there's you get this little

792
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 3: piece of like kind of some of the inherent decency

793
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 3: of some of the little kids, like some of his

794
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 3: kids and grandkids, because his grandchildren were known to volunteer

795
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,720
Speaker 3: at the nailory sometimes so that the boys that Thomas

796
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 3: owned could go take days off to go fishing. Wow,

797
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 3: so you get little legs again. Other people are capable

798
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 3: of treating them like people, right, Yeah, Jefferson, isn't I

799
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 3: found that interesting?

800
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: You gotta yeah, without oversimplifying, but like you got to

801
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 2: beat the humanity out of that kid. Yeah you know

802
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 2: what I mean, because the kid looks at him and goes, well,

803
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: he's a kid, Like I'm a kid. He sucks. He's

804
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: there every day. Yeah, dude, look bro, I can do

805
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: I can do at least a date. You know what

806
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: I'm saying.

807
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is.

808
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: And someone has to come and tell you, yeah, well no,

809
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 2: because yeah you're not property.

810
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, they don't need days off, they don't really

811
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 3: want them, they're fine. You have to like lie and

812
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 3: abuse people to get them like that. I think it's

813
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 3: such an interesting example of just like, well, yeah, these

814
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 3: kids just notice that these other kids don't get to

815
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 3: have a childhood and did something about it.

816
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 2: Right.

817
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 3: Interesting The little bits like that you get, I guess

818
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 3: are also maybe one of the ways that these kids

819
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 3: get to speak a little bit out into history, like

820
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 3: the y beach that was denied them. But you have

821
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 3: to assume, you have to assume the kind of communication

822
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 3: that like led to that, like even if it was

823
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 3: just communication, like, wow, these kids look obviously unhappy here.

824
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

825
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 4: I thought about that a lot after reading.

826
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, such a human moment, you know.

827
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 4: Yeah.

828
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 3: So, back during his years in France and when he'd

829
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 3: written notes on the State of Virginia, Jefferson had written

830
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 3: at length his belief that black people were not mentally

831
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 3: capable of being free. Right, That's a big part of

832
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 3: like how he defends himself to these like French intellectuals.

833
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 3: The success he'd had in turning Monticello into a functioning

834
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 3: complex industrial society made some of his or semi industrial society,

835
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,280
Speaker 3: made some of his French friends who came and visited

836
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 3: him at Monticello, Like Duke de la Rochefucoli and Court

837
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 3: basically be like, I know what you said about these folks,

838
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 3: but like it seems like they're capable of doing all

839
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 3: sorts of very complicated jobs that are everything they'd need

840
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 3: to do in order to live independently and free.

841
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 2: Right, seem pretty smart to me.

842
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 3: They seem like they're capable of building an entire society

843
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 3: on their own.

844
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 2: Basically, you're telling me these people, case of the people

845
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: that built your house, Yeah, unable to survive on their own.

846
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

847
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like they have a lot of the

848
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 3: same kinds of skills that we consider skilled labor in

849
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 3: outside of society. And so like Duke de la Roche Fucolianchor,

850
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 3: who's like one of his friends who visits Monticello, is

851
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 3: so impressed that he's like, Hey, this is great. This

852
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 3: means you can like free these people, right, Like you've

853
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 3: taught them all this, so like now they can be free, right, Thomas.

854
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 2: Remember what you said when we was in France about that,

855
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 2: Like it seemed like the problem solved.

856
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we're doing that, right, do we do we?

857
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 1: Right? Yeah?

858
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 2: Yeah?

859
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 3: The Duke recorded Jefferson's response this way quote, he sees

860
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 3: so many difficulties in their emancipation, and he had so

861
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 3: many conditions to render it practicable that it is thus

862
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 3: reduced to the impossible and it's too hard.

863
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

864
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 3: Part of why he does that, or why jeff like

865
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 3: Jefferson's argument is again, it comes down to race mixing,

866
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: right yeah. Like he's like, if we free these then

867
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 3: they'll inevitably going to like Mary and have children with

868
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 3: white people, right yeah. Part of his justification to this

869
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 3: guy is like, again, it all comes down to race mixing.

870
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 3: He's been doing this for a while since France. And

871
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 3: what's interesting to me is not like the specifics of

872
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 3: his beliefs on like this kind of stuff and how

873
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,439
Speaker 3: it ties. I mean, it is interesting that it ties

874
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 3: into scientific racism, which Jefferson usually doesn't get blamed for,

875
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 3: and he is very much a part of that. But

876
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 3: what's really interesting to me is that, like, first off,

877
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 3: he's actively doing this thing. Yes that like he says,

878
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 3: is this reason why these people can't be free?

879
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 2: Yes?

880
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 3: Second, it's as a public figure, right, he supports brutal

881
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 3: punishments for this, as I noted earlier, when he's revising

882
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 3: Virginia's slave code. He proposes that any white woman who

883
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 3: gives birth to mix mixed race children be cast out

884
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 3: from protection of the law. But a few years earlier,

885
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 3: right after he'd finished notes on the State of Virginia,

886
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 3: he sold one of the women he owned to a

887
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 3: white man with the understanding that she would be freed

888
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 3: by him and they would live his husband and wife. Right,

889
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 3: And he was willing to do this. This guy is

890
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 3: a friend of his, So you get this mix of like, well,

891
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 3: he clearly doesn't actually have a problem with this, but

892
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 3: he thinks it's very important in public to have a

893
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 3: problem with this.

894
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and God, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's to have books, right, right.

895
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, Now, where I think this gets most disgusting is

896
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 3: in his public protestations of his gentleness as a master.

897
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 3: He would drop lines like I love industry and abhor severity, right, basically,

898
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 3: like I love it when people are working. I hate

899
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 3: the idea of like God forbid you know, having to

900
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 3: punish you know, these people, Oh, what a horrible thought. Right,

901
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 3: And he would regularly in his public writings attack overseers.

902
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: Right.

903
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 3: He called them degraded, unprincipled, violent people, which in many

904
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 3: cases they were that's not an all fair thing, right, yes,

905
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 3: but he's also hiring these guys.

906
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,439
Speaker 1: Was like, yeah, like so fucking fake.

907
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah this this this is it. You're not like

908
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 2: this this this the Thomas Jefferson I know. Yeah, you know,

909
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 2: just like about the whole you know, misigenation. And then

910
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 2: like we're all like Nikki, you have like twenty nine

911
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 2: black children, like were you talking about? And and it

912
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 2: also brings up an interesting point about how like there

913
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: was a time that like having a mixed relationship was

914
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 2: an act of protest.

915
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 4: Yeah you know that.

916
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: That's like such an interesting moment where it was like, no,

917
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 2: this is this is me being a part of the revolution,

918
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: you know, such a it's a weird position to be.

919
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 2: You know, it's just wow, I just I don't know,

920
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 2: I just think about that stuff. And then yeah and

921
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 2: then publicly yeah anyway, yeah that's sad. And then yeah,

922
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:58,919
Speaker 2: and and the overseer thing, this like of the many

923
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 2: things that are so inferior rating. It's just like not

924
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 2: only are not only you're calling yourself a farmer who

925
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 2: don't do no damn farming, you know what I'm saying. Now, Now,

926
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 2: now you you get somebody, you get a goon basically,

927
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: you know, to do the shit that you ain't got

928
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 2: the you ain't got the stomach to do anyway because

929
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 2: you know you're wrong. And then you got the nerve

930
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 2: to stand by and be like, well, I hate we

931
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: have to do this. I wish you would just like

932
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: just comply. I don't want to have to get the Yeah.

933
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: I hate it, but you.

934
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just if you'd have just worked until you die,

935
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: you know, I know it's.

936
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 3: Friday and I hate to do this.

937
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally, you kinda have to work forever. Yeah, like

938
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 4: it's it's and it's interesting.

939
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 3: Like again he gets such a there's so many historians,

940
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 3: even up to the pretty recent period, are willing to

941
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 3: like go to bad about like how relatively nice he is.

942
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 3: But Jefferson, not only is he hiring overseers, He's not

943
00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 3: just it's not just that. Like, while he hires overseers

944
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 3: because everybody does, you have to have someone to watch

945
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 3: it for you. He hires overseers and talks about the

946
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 3: violence he wants them to do. Right, Wow, And we're

947
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 3: going to get into that, but first, here's an awkward

948
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 3: ad break.

949
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:17,439
Speaker 4: And we're back.

950
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 3: So the standard punishment for a slave who tried to

951
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 3: escape and got caught was what was called an iron collar.

952
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 3: This is a torture device that forces spikes up behind

953
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 3: each ear, so that if the person with the collar

954
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 3: turns their head, they are like stabbing themselves.

955
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: Basically.

956
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 3: Now, this is a famously evil thing, right like when

957
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 3: people in Europe are talking about the horrible evil of

958
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 3: the American system, these collars are one of the things

959
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 3: that get written about, right and Jefferson and notes in

960
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: the State of Virginia, which is again him trying to

961
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 3: defend the United States to France, writes about how these

962
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 3: are one of the worst parts of this really cruel,

963
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 3: hideous system. Nine he ordered his property manager to purchase

964
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 3: a load of callers.

965
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 4: Weinsek.

966
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 3: In his exploration of Jefferson's farm book and correspondence, lays

967
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 3: out a clear pattern. Jefferson often says the right thing,

968
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 3: or at least the less cruel thing, but then acts

969
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 3: with as much cruelty as any other master. He cites

970
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 3: the seventeen ninety two letter by Jefferson to his executive overseer,

971
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 3: Colonel Randolph, about replacing a retiring overseer and the need

972
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 3: to balance Cruelty and Goodness quote. In his response to Randolph,

973
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 3: Jefferson also wrote, my first wish is that the laborers

974
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,919
Speaker 3: may be well treated. But what it appears at first

975
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 3: glance to be an ironclad declaration of principle turns out

976
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 3: to be just what Jefferson said. It was a wish,

977
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 3: and it was qualified by a second wish that they

978
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 3: may enable me to have that treatment continued by making

979
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 3: as much as will admit it. You see what he's

980
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 3: saying there, Like I want to treat them well, and

981
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 3: I hope they make me enough money that I don't

982
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 3: have to have them beat right.

983
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what he says.

984
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: Hey, you know, yeah, I look, dude, this is look nobody,

985
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 2: I don't want this. Yeah, but like if you like

986
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 2: basically you're choosing it, like if you choose not to

987
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 2: because it's your choice, Yeah, choosing not to be compliant

988
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: and work hard. Look if the system works, if you

989
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:18,879
Speaker 2: work the system.

990
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 3: Just right, Yeah, yeah, that is exactly like, Yeah, what

991
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 3: he's saying here. I'm going to continue that quote from

992
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 3: win Sex book. First, this was Jefferson's contract with the slaves.

993
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 3: I wish to treat you well, but if you do

994
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 3: not produce enough, there will be harsh measures. Second, it

995
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 3: was Jefferson's contract with himself. Having made this mental compact

996
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 3: with the slaves, he could absolve himself from blame for

997
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 3: anything unpleasant.

998
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 4: The slaves were at.

999
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 3: Fault, right, So he's doing this, he's expressing this because

1000
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 3: that way he can be like, well, we have this

1001
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 3: agreement and you guys didn't make enough, right, it's not

1002
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 3: me having you punished.

1003
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: You know.

1004
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:56,399
Speaker 2: There's his through line. His through line is dang, it's

1005
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: it's all clear. Now. His through nine. His through line

1006
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 2: is I'm going to find a way to absolve myself,

1007
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: Like whatever we're doing, no matter what it is, I'm

1008
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 2: going to provide myself an out. And that's continually what

1009
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,720
Speaker 2: he continues to do, like as a politician, as a farmer,

1010
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 2: as a husband, as a father, and now in this

1011
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 2: in this context, it's like, oh, but yeah, he's always

1012
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 2: finding himself an out.

1013
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 4: Right, right, Yeah, that's that's the guy.

1014
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that guy.

1015
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 4: All of this, if it can be made.

1016
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 3: More infuriating, it is made more infuriating by the reality

1017
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 3: of Jefferson's correspondence with a man named Benjamin Banneker.

1018
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 4: Have you heard, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know Benjamin h.

1019
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1020
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 3: Now Banneker was born to well that we were not

1021
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 3: entirely certain, but probably was born to two free black

1022
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 3: parents in Maryland.

1023
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1024
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,399
Speaker 3: Educated as a he was educated as a child. He's

1025
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,439
Speaker 3: taught to read. It's arithmetic, and he inherits some land

1026
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 3: which he farms with considerably more aptitude than Thomas Jefferson

1027
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 3: farmed anything.

1028
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: Right.

1029
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 3: Yes, Now, Bannicker was an early mathematician, and he was

1030
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 3: in fact so able at mathematics that by the late

1031
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 3: seventeen hundreds he had a popular almanac that Jefferson and

1032
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 3: many other Americans used, like puts out a really good

1033
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 3: and an almanac.

1034
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 4: You have to think about. An almanac is like it's

1035
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 4: like an.

1036
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 3: iPhone, right, it is a it is a the product

1037
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 3: of intense science that is absolutely necessary for your day

1038
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 3: to day life if you're a farmer, right, And it's

1039
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 3: it's impressive being able to like understand astronomy and all

1040
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff, like well enough to to make

1041
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 3: a good almanac is difficult. At age twenty one, an

1042
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 3: ideaf how smart this guy is. When he's twenty one

1043
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 3: years old, Banneker borrows a pocket watch from a friend,

1044
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 3: and carves his own functioning watch out of wood based

1045
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 3: on the pocket watch he borrows that like works his

1046
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 3: whole life, just a like you know, a polymath.

1047
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, I need a.

1048
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 2: Double check my my history. But I believe he designed

1049
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 2: this the disc of Washington, DC.

1050
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 4: Oh did he? I didn't know that.

1051
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, he designed the roads, yeah, Jesus Yeah. Yeah, like

1052
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: so that was like one of those things that I

1053
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:15,919
Speaker 2: I that was one of the yeah, one of the things. Yes, Yeah,

1054
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 2: he established the borders of District of Columbia. So like

1055
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 2: he actually designed Jesus Rose. Now granted they're very annoying now,

1056
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 2: but that's because they were made for then, you know

1057
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 2: what I'm saying. But he definitely designed him.

1058
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 3: You can't blame him for not assuming DC would ever

1059
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 3: get that big Yeah, of course.

1060
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1061
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 3: So Jefferson had cited, if you remember back to I

1062
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 3: think our second episode, he had cited some of his

1063
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 3: evidence and notes in the City of Virginia when he

1064
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 3: when he wrote out, well here's why I think white

1065
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 3: people are superior. One of it was that he hadn't

1066
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,439
Speaker 3: run into a black man who knew Euclid. Right, Well,

1067
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 3: here's a black mathematician who is definitely better at math

1068
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 3: than utah us. Right, Yes, you would think like, well,

1069
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 3: maybe that talking to this guy should have some impact

1070
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,720
Speaker 3: on him. Right. And in seventeen ninety one, Anniker actually

1071
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 3: sends Jefferson a letter and he he quotes the Declaration

1072
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 3: of Independence back to Jefferson and is like, hey, man,

1073
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 3: like what the fuck?

1074
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 2: Right?

1075
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 3: Like, He's still like, how can you write all this

1076
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:14,919
Speaker 3: and do this? And I love the way he gets

1077
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 3: Tom's ass here quote this is Bannecker. But sir, how

1078
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 3: pitiable is it to reflect that although you were so

1079
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 3: fully convinced of the benevolence of the Father of mankind,

1080
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 3: and of his equal and impartial distribution of those rights

1081
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 3: and privileges which he had conferred upon them, that you

1082
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 3: should at the same time counteract his mercies and detaining

1083
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 3: by fraud and violence so numerous a part of my brethren,

1084
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 3: under groaning, captivity, and cruel oppression, that you should at

1085
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,240
Speaker 3: the same time be found guilty of that most criminal

1086
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 3: act which you professedly detested in others with respect to yourselves,

1087
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,320
Speaker 3: He's like, where I'm standing here as bad as the

1088
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 3: King was.

1089
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 2: Yes, you sound just like yeah, you ain't shit.

1090
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1091
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 2: And also What I love too about that, that is

1092
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 2: the him saying like, you're doing this to my brethren,

1093
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 2: because even in a brains freed, intelligent black people were like,

1094
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 2: well they're different, Like that's the exception, Like you not,

1095
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 2: these are that's what y'all normally like you and section

1096
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 2: like no they me yeah, wear them they're no, No,

1097
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 2: that's my brothers. Yeah.

1098
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 3: And that's kind of what Jefferson does, is he like

1099
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 3: he says to he praises Bannicker, He's like, you're a

1100
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 3: credit to your race basically, right, yeah, Like, but he

1101
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 3: won't he's not willing to admit that, like, and this

1102
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 3: means I was wrong, right, And therefore it turns out

1103
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,320
Speaker 3: if you just let people go to school, some of

1104
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 3: them will learn about YOUU clip, you know, like they

1105
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 3: did it Tom. Yeah, yeah, he does right basically that like, well,

1106
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 3: I guess maybe this does show that that you black

1107
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 3: people are intellectually equal to white people. And he writes,

1108
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 3: I can add with truth that nobody wishes more ardently

1109
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,280
Speaker 3: to see a good system commenced for raising the condition

1110
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,479
Speaker 3: of both their body and mind to what it ought

1111
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 3: to be. So again, he's not willing to count. He

1112
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,439
Speaker 3: says all this, but then he doesn't do anything about it. Yeah,

1113
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 3: and after Banniker dies, in that letter he had said,

1114
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 3: I'm going to send your almanac off to this French philosopher.

1115
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 3: I know he'll be so impressed. And then as soon

1116
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 3: as Bannicker dies, Jefferson's like he lied about.

1117
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 4: Writing that almanac.

1118
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 3: Couldn't have been him, Yeah, couldn't have been him. I

1119
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 3: don't think it was him.

1120
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think he did that anyway.

1121
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 4: Anyway, that guy made a lot.

1122
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 2: Of great points. Man, it seems that it seems that

1123
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 2: the Negro could really learn anything. Anyway.

1124
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, in eighteen hundred, TJ was elected to the presidency. Now,

1125
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 3: I should note that when I asked this question of

1126
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 3: my search engine to double check the AI summaries at

1127
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 3: eighteen oh one, which is wrong. So again, don't trust

1128
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 3: these AI summary things. They get really basic shit wrong.

1129
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 3: This is not a hard question to answer, and.

1130
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,240
Speaker 1: Didn't want to know more. Listen to a better offline.

1131
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah on this network, yep, yop, yop.

1132
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 3: Now you would assume right that now that to mus president, right,

1133
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 3: this would be theer if he really did have deeply

1134
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 3: held beliefs about emancipation. Well, now, he's literally the president.

1135
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 3: He should be able to do something, right.

1136
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, we always we had power, now

1137
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 2: we have it.

1138
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he does worse than nothing. So Jefferson is

1139
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 3: a Francophile, right, really loves France, really loves the French,

1140
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 3: and he loves the French Revolution.

1141
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 4: And you know, being that guy.

1142
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,800
Speaker 3: Once he becomes president, he is happy to be approached

1143
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 3: by Louis Pischon the charge a fair of the French Republic,

1144
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 3: which talked a good game about liberty, but was also

1145
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 3: at that point in the process of trying to crush

1146
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 3: the first successful slave rebellion of the modern era in Haiti.

1147
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 3: And this is obviously, this is when Napoleon is running things,

1148
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,399
Speaker 3: and at this point it's not Haiti at Sandamang. Now

1149
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 3: that successful revolution had as its most prominent leader, one

1150
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 3: of the most impressive men of that century, to Saint Loeviture.

1151
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 3: Right now, Pichon wanted to know what the third President

1152
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 3: would do if France sent its army to San Domain.

1153
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,760
Speaker 3: And here's how Thomas Fleming, former president of the Society

1154
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 3: of American Historians, describes his response. Jefferson's reply exceeded Pichon's

1155
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 3: most sanguine hopes. The new president urged Pichan to tell

1156
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 3: his government that that America was eager to help restore

1157
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 3: French rule in San Domain. He was pleased that France

1158
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,360
Speaker 3: wanted to send an army to crush the Black rebels.

1159
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 3: Nothing would be easier for us than to furnish your

1160
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 3: army and fleet with everything and to reduce to Saint

1161
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 3: to starvation. Jefferson said, So again, this guy who's like

1162
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 3: the inevitable world revolution for liberty has started as soon

1163
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 3: as the Haitians overthrow their slave masters, goes, well, yeah,

1164
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 3: we got to starve with those people to death.

1165
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:40,720
Speaker 2: Well that's different.

1166
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's out of them.

1167
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's around the corner. Like, that's cool. We

1168
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 2: could send him down there.

1169
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 3: That's easy, be easy as hell for us. Yeah, we

1170
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:51,839
Speaker 3: had lots of boats, so I should note that. Well,

1171
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 3: the obviously, you know, the story of the international community

1172
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 3: fucking over Haiti is a long one. That's what we've

1173
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:01,280
Speaker 3: done several episodes on it. Yeah, the French do capture

1174
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,919
Speaker 3: to Saint. He dies in captivity, but their whole army

1175
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,280
Speaker 3: is either you know, a lot of them die by rebels,

1176
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 3: and like I think most of them it's just the

1177
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 3: yellow fever, right, Yeah, anyway, it does not go well,

1178
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 3: they do not, Yeah, but their attempt is so brutal

1179
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 3: that in the wake of their failure, a rebel general

1180
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 3: named Jean Jacques de Saline's massacres every French white person

1181
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:25,800
Speaker 3: he can get his hands on and makes himself the

1182
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 3: new ruler of what he starts to call Haiti. Right,

1183
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 3: So thanks for that, Thomas, great work. Now, Jefferson had

1184
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,839
Speaker 3: often expressed his terror at the inevitability of a race

1185
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 3: war if emancipation didn't proceed on very specific ever shifting

1186
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 3: lines the reality, and I think that's why this story

1187
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 3: is worth telling. Part of why, obviously it's worth telling

1188
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 3: for a lot of reasons, is that Jefferson himself provokes

1189
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 3: a race war by betraying his own stated revolutionary beliefs,

1190
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 3: the instant a group of slaves freese themselves, and tries

1191
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 3: to start a republic.

1192
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, that guy. Yeah, that guy.

1193
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 3: So people might get frustrated that we're not really going

1194
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 3: to cover his presidency in detail, his beliefs about manifest destiny,

1195
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,319
Speaker 3: his role in the ideological underpinnings of US colonial expansionism,

1196
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 3: because again, there was just so much to say specifically

1197
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 3: about Jefferson and slavery, and I really wanted to keep

1198
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 3: us focused on that. I do think there's one more

1199
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 3: aspect of his president, or of his life as it

1200
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 3: results relates to slavery, that is worth discussing. And this

1201
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 3: brings me to a guy named Edward Coles. Coles came

1202
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 3: from old money, a family with a pedigree at least

1203
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 3: as impressive as Jefferson's own. Like Thomas, he inherited land,

1204
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 3: and eventually he inherited a bunch of human beings. Like Jefferson,

1205
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 3: in his youth, it became clear to him that slavery

1206
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 3: was evil and the system had to be destroyed. Unlike Jefferson,

1207
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 3: Coles actually believed this. He was influenced by the death

1208
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 3: of George Washington, who had come to similar conclusions about

1209
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 3: slavery and wrote in his will that his domestics should

1210
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 3: be freed after his death. Now, the reality is that

1211
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 3: about half only about half the people held at Mount

1212
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 3: Vernon remained like got freed in relatively short order. About

1213
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 3: half of them were slaves in many cases for decades afterwards.

1214
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 3: But it would be accurate to say that Washington was

1215
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 3: more committed to emancipating the people he owned than Jefferson

1216
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 3: would prove to be. Yeah. That said, for the purposes

1217
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 3: of what Coles see his important it's that Washington is

1218
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 3: seen as having made a real commitment to emancipation. Right, So,

1219
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 3: when his own father dies, Coles tells his family right away,

1220
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 3: I'm going to free all of the family slaves. His

1221
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 3: family calls this folly and attacks him for giving up

1222
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 3: the comforts his parents had worked so hard to gain.

1223
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 2: He's going to piss away.

1224
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it is like that's it is like, yeah, yeah,

1225
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 3: that is exactly how they talk about it. Now, this

1226
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 3: was such a problem that his brother, who had been

1227
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 3: Thomas Jefferson's personal secretary, gets Cole's a job offer from

1228
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 3: the next president, James Madison as his private secretary. Coles

1229
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 3: decides he's going to turn the job down because he

1230
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 3: really wants to make emancipating all of these people he's

1231
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 3: inherited a priority. But James Monroe basically convinces him that, like,

1232
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 3: if you do this, if you get this job, you'll

1233
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 3: get into that you can change the system from the inside.

1234
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 3: If you really want to fight for emancipation, this will

1235
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 3: teach you how to do it more effectively. Right, So

1236
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 3: he makes that call, you know, for a while, and

1237
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 3: he spends five years living in luxury at the White House,

1238
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 3: being waited on hand and foot and seeing how men

1239
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 3: like the President lived while regularly encountering coffles of chained

1240
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 3: slaves being marched from the Oxen Block makes him angrier

1241
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 3: and angrier, and in eighteen fourteen, he decides to reach

1242
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 3: out to former President Jefferson. And his thinking here is like,

1243
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 3: I don't think I can do this from inside. We

1244
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 3: have to have some kind of big movement that's going

1245
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 3: to lead us to emancipation. And you're the profit of liberty, right,

1246
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 3: Can you help me with this? Yeah?

1247
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 4: Do you want to do this together?

1248
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 3: You know, he writes, to.

1249
00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 2: Bring that same energy. You remember all of the stuff

1250
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 2: he co Yeah.

1251
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like this used to matter to you.

1252
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 3: Can we try it? He writes in one letter, My

1253
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 3: object is to entreat and beseech you to exert your

1254
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 3: knowledge and influence and devising and getting into operations some

1255
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 3: plan for the gradual emancipation of slavery. Coles wanted Jefferson

1256
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 3: to help him write a general emancipation plan for Virginia

1257
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 3: and introduce it to the state. Jefferson gave him a

1258
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 3: semi polite fuck you, saying like, yes, slavery is bad,

1259
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 3: but just that too many Americans, you know, you and

1260
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 3: I get how evil this is, but there's just too

1261
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 3: many people who don't get it, you know. Particularly you

1262
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 3: know who was really to blame. It's the young people.

1263
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 3: You know, they don't really love liberty the way my

1264
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 3: generation did. He is disappointing, Yeah, disappointing, but they don't

1265
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 3: like it liberty the way I do.

1266
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 2: And it was there. I mean, it's and it's on

1267
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 2: them anyway. You remember that, as you said last time,

1268
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 2: it's like kids will figure it out. They don't love liberty.

1269
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is, it is.

1270
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 3: He does kind of start that ball rolling too, all

1271
01:00:56,320 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 3: of our great democratic traditions. Fuck them kids, the kids.

1272
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 2: That should that should be the T shirt, Thomas Jefferson some.

1273
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 4: Fuck them kids.

1274
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1275
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 3: Now, At the same time, he argued that the fight

1276
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 3: for emancipation was the responsibility of the young. He's just

1277
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 3: too old and tired to do it now. Cole's was

1278
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 3: left alone and his credit He's like eventually like, well, okay,

1279
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 3: I guess I can't do this, right. I can't make

1280
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 3: the country fix this problem. So you know what I

1281
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 3: am going to do is not be a fucking hypocrite.

1282
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 3: And he travels with he takes the seventeen people he owns,

1283
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 3: and he purchases like one hundred and sixty acres for

1284
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 3: each of them, along with a bunch of farming equipment

1285
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 3: and sets them all up independently on free farms.

1286
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 2: Let's go.

1287
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 4: He actually does the thing.

1288
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 2: Dude, It was already a nail. Like your first nail

1289
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 2: in the coffin is when the guy goes, well, no,

1290
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 2: take the job, because you can change him. You could

1291
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:55,440
Speaker 2: work from within, you could be the you could be

1292
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 2: the adult in the room. Like listen, guys, Yeah, that

1293
01:01:58,600 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 2: don't work man.

1294
01:01:59,680 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1295
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 2: You can't sway an institution like that.

1296
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 4: Yeah. And he does eventually like realize, do the right thing.

1297
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's nice.

1298
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 3: Another one of Thomas Jefferson's friends was the revolutionary war

1299
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 3: hero Thatius Kosyusko who leaves Jefferson. This is one of

1300
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 3: his friends who, like is, becomes an abolitionist, right, and

1301
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 3: he's frustrated that Jefferson. You know, Jefferson's always got these excuses,

1302
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 3: and so when he dies Thtius is like, here's twenty grand.

1303
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 3: Here's a bunch of money. You can use, like half

1304
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 3: of it on your own debts, use the rest to

1305
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 3: free your slaves and buy them land and equipment for

1306
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 3: them to farm. Right, I'm giving you the money pays

1307
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 3: toll even solve a bunch of your problems, right, Damn.

1308
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: I'm giving you to buy it like I'm putting my money. Look, man,

1309
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 2: I'm a pony up. Yeah no, excuse bro, Yeah yeah.

1310
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 3: And he he makes Jefferson the executor of his will,

1311
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 3: so it should be Jefferson's job to do this. Jefferson refuses.

1312
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 3: He just doesn't do it. He doesn't take the money.

1313
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 3: Yeah from Master of the Mountain quote. If Jefferson had

1314
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 3: accepted Kazuyusko's bequest, as much as half of it would

1315
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 3: have gone not to Jefferson, but in effect to his slaves,

1316
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 3: to the purchase price for land, livestock, equipment, and transportation

1317
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 3: to get them started in a place such as Illinois

1318
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 3: or Ohio. Moreover, the slaves most suited for immediate emancipation,

1319
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 3: Smith's Cooper's carpenters, the most skilled farmers were the very

1320
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 3: ones whom Jefferson most wanted to keep. He also shrank

1321
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 3: from any public identification with the cause of emancipation. So

1322
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 3: part of why he does it is he just doesn't

1323
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 3: want to get into the debate, right, he's a political

1324
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Yeah, that's such a vile thing. Like

1325
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 3: your friend, literally, and you were in a horrible debt.

1326
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 2: You can Yeah, he removed every possible obstacle. Yeah, Jefferson

1327
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 2: still wouldn't do it and still wasn't down.

1328
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1329
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 3: Thomas Jefferson died July fourth, eighteen twenty six, leaving a

1330
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 3: debt of more than one hundred and seven thousand dollars

1331
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 3: for his children to manage. Monticello never became an engine

1332
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 3: of profit, at least not one that could generate enough

1333
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 3: money to cover the interest on his debts. He died delusional,

1334
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 3: sure a public lottery would be created to pay for

1335
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 3: his daughter and her family to keep Monticello and his slaves,

1336
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 3: But within a year, his descendants had sold the land,

1337
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 3: everything inside the house, the famous house itself, and one

1338
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:26,919
Speaker 3: hundred and thirty human beings. Only seven of the people

1339
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 3: that he'd owned were freed, and only five of those

1340
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 3: people were freed by Jefferson in his will and again Washington,

1341
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:35,919
Speaker 3: who's not at all a saint here freeze about half

1342
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 3: of the people at Mount Vernon, So even by that standard,

1343
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 3: not a great guy.

1344
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 1: No.

1345
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:47,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a quote about Jefferson as an abolitionist or

1346
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 3: an emancipator. That's like, never did a man get more

1347
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 3: credit for that which he did not do?

1348
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 2: And yeah that is a dope quote. Yeah, yeah, never

1349
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 2: did a man get mo credit for some he do?

1350
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 4: God dog.

1351
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, well prop that's the episodes, all right, man, I'm

1352
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 2: glad it's as dead.

1353
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 1: As he is.

1354
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's kind of where I stand.

1355
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, bro, Like and like you said, like we ain't

1356
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 2: even talked about him as a president and Mamith's destiny

1357
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 2: and all that shit that like is its own. Yeah

1358
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 2: that we be here, We be here till till December

1359
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 2: talking about all that.

1360
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:30,920
Speaker 3: Right right, Yeah, there's a lot more to say about him,

1361
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 3: but yeah, I think we've done.

1362
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 2: No, this is perfect because it's no, this is definitely

1363
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 2: perfect because it's like you need something to say, like

1364
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 2: before a person gets into the hero status, let us

1365
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:47,400
Speaker 2: remember that this man ain't no hero, you know, and

1366
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 2: I I just you know us, we follow politics, we

1367
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 2: follow geopolitics, we follow all this stuff, and there may

1368
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:58,040
Speaker 2: be characters who may step up and may do something

1369
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 2: that's like, oh, that's cool. You know, it's eight points

1370
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 2: for your team, you know. But like, like, let's think

1371
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 2: about this dude that you're trying to give, you know,

1372
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 2: trying to give some give dap to like that man

1373
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 2: is not your friend, you know, and and people need

1374
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 2: to just yeah, like like this is important. It's just

1375
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 2: like how yo, antenna's up before you start, like man

1376
01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 2: is that man is not a hero. And I'm so

1377
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 2: glad you did this and I got to be a

1378
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 2: part of it so I can make fun of him.

1379
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 2: But I will say this, I will say this. I

1380
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 2: believe that there's I might be pulling this out of

1381
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 2: my ass just like him. A gathering of his descendants

1382
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 2: like that that continues and that they're like, we need

1383
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 2: our money. Like you know, I'm saying like, yo, like

1384
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 2: this is what you promised us. We need where our

1385
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 2: money at. And I'm like, I hope they get their money. Yeah,

1386
01:06:57,520 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 2: I mean I hope we all get our money in operations.

1387
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 3: But it still, yeah, I'm supportive of preparations. I will

1388
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 3: have to say he didn't have any money when her

1389
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 3: you can take it all literally, never.

1390
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 1: Do that so funny.

1391
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, hey, I'll write your check, bro, you know,

1392
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 2: just don't cash it till Tuesday.

1393
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. Uh classic welch prop. You have a podcast Tics.

1394
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 2: Of Politics with pop with pop YEP with Soda and yeah,

1395
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 2: where I kind of teach you how to like hey

1396
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 2: U Joe Antennas like don't trust that, don't trust him

1397
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 2: over there. That boy ain't no good.

1398
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying.

1399
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, so that Yeah, seasons cranking, really trying to

1400
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 2: like step our game up. We're doing hood politics for eyeballs.

1401
01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 2: Also that I've attempted to remove this the swear words

1402
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 2: from so that, like you know, you can if you're

1403
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 2: if you're so inclined to have ears around that you're

1404
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:06,440
Speaker 2: trying to keep swear words away from I got one

1405
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 2: for you, what I'm saying, excellent, And I got a book,

1406
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 2: poetry book, terra form.

1407
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:12,960
Speaker 4: That's right, that's right.

1408
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 1: If you don't do some kind of project called you

1409
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:17,559
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, I feel like.

1410
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 2: We're I don't know what it is.

1411
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:24,640
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is yet, you know what, Like.

1412
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,040
Speaker 2: I know right before I even send off the audio

1413
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 2: to Matt. I go through and edit them out. I say,

1414
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:39,639
Speaker 2: I say, it's so much, it's embarrassing. When I listen

1415
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:41,760
Speaker 2: back to myself, it'll be like, you know what I'm saying.

1416
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 2: So it's like I have all the time. Yeah, one day,

1417
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 2: you know what I'm gonna do.

1418
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 1: Just for you.

1419
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to chop them all and put them on

1420
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 2: one file and.

1421
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:55,960
Speaker 1: Just like, oh I want to you know what I'm saying, remixed?

1422
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:58,120
Speaker 2: I need it on a boat man. You know what

1423
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:01,440
Speaker 2: I'm saying. Okay, I'll tell that it's hilarious.

1424
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 3: Well, what I'm saying is thank you, and uh yeah

1425
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 3: I was. Folks, want to donate some money to the

1426
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:12,280
Speaker 3: Portland Diaper Bank to help people who don't have much

1427
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 3: money afford diapers or you know, just have diapers for free,

1428
01:09:16,320 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 3: you can do fundme Portland Diaper Bank. Behind the Bastards

1429
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 3: and yeah, that'll that'll get you what you need.

1430
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,200
Speaker 1: My dog has decided we're done. She's she's playing in

1431
01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:31,679
Speaker 1: the background. If you so, it's it's over.

1432
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 3: Bye bye.

1433
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1434
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,120
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1435
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com. Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1436
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.