1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Palm Oil is vegetable oil made from palm trees, 2 00:00:24,636 --> 00:00:26,716 Speaker 1: and it's hiding in a ton of the stuff we 3 00:00:26,836 --> 00:00:30,916 Speaker 1: use every single day. Palm Oil is in chips, it's 4 00:00:30,956 --> 00:00:35,036 Speaker 1: in crackers, cookies, peanut butter. It's also in soap, it's 5 00:00:35,076 --> 00:00:38,956 Speaker 1: in shampoo, it's in detergent. Palm oil is in lotion, 6 00:00:39,476 --> 00:00:44,076 Speaker 1: it's in lipstick. And you can't even tell by looking 7 00:00:44,116 --> 00:00:46,516 Speaker 1: at the list of ingredients whether a thing you're holding 8 00:00:46,516 --> 00:00:49,396 Speaker 1: in your hand has palm oil in it, because it 9 00:00:49,436 --> 00:00:53,116 Speaker 1: might be listed as vegetable oil, or as spheric acid, 10 00:00:53,276 --> 00:00:57,076 Speaker 1: or as sodium laurel sulfate, or as lots of other things. 11 00:00:57,796 --> 00:01:00,956 Speaker 1: Palm Oil is in so many things because it is very, 12 00:01:01,116 --> 00:01:05,876 Speaker 1: very useful, but also growing all the palm trees to 13 00:01:05,956 --> 00:01:09,436 Speaker 1: make all this palm oil turns out to be really, 14 00:01:09,516 --> 00:01:12,996 Speaker 1: really bad for the planet. So it would be great 15 00:01:13,276 --> 00:01:15,796 Speaker 1: if somebody could come up with a cheap, scalable way 16 00:01:16,116 --> 00:01:25,836 Speaker 1: to get palm oil without palm trees. I'm Jacob Oldstein, 17 00:01:25,916 --> 00:01:28,116 Speaker 1: and this is what's your problem. My guest today is 18 00:01:28,156 --> 00:01:32,476 Speaker 1: Shaa Tku. She's the co founder of C sixteen Biosciences. 19 00:01:32,916 --> 00:01:36,756 Speaker 1: Shaa's problem is this, can you get yeast to make 20 00:01:36,756 --> 00:01:39,836 Speaker 1: a molecule that does basically all the good stuff that 21 00:01:39,876 --> 00:01:42,676 Speaker 1: palm oil does, so that you can get what is 22 00:01:42,756 --> 00:01:50,876 Speaker 1: basically palm oil without palm trees. Why is palm oil 23 00:01:50,996 --> 00:01:52,116 Speaker 1: so great. 24 00:01:52,716 --> 00:01:54,796 Speaker 2: It's really good at what it does, and it does 25 00:01:54,836 --> 00:01:58,156 Speaker 2: a lot of things. So palm oil is a is 26 00:01:58,196 --> 00:02:02,396 Speaker 2: an oil, is a vegetable oil, and oils and fats 27 00:02:02,476 --> 00:02:05,236 Speaker 2: show up in a lot of products. They show up 28 00:02:05,236 --> 00:02:07,836 Speaker 2: in food, they show up in cleaning products, they show 29 00:02:07,916 --> 00:02:12,636 Speaker 2: up even in biodiesel and sustainable aviation fuel and lubricants, 30 00:02:13,516 --> 00:02:17,716 Speaker 2: and palm oil is the most popular among them because 31 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:21,876 Speaker 2: it can do the most things, so it really drives performance. 32 00:02:22,116 --> 00:02:26,916 Speaker 2: In things like soap. It is the molecule responsible for 33 00:02:27,036 --> 00:02:29,396 Speaker 2: foaming and cleansing, which is exactly what you want a 34 00:02:29,436 --> 00:02:33,556 Speaker 2: soap to do. And in things like peanut butter, the 35 00:02:33,636 --> 00:02:37,156 Speaker 2: profile of palm oil is the reason that your peanut 36 00:02:37,196 --> 00:02:42,556 Speaker 2: butter stays together with a really smooth, spoonable emulsion, and 37 00:02:42,596 --> 00:02:44,276 Speaker 2: if you take it out, you have that layer of 38 00:02:44,356 --> 00:02:48,876 Speaker 2: oil separation. So it's really it's about function and performance 39 00:02:49,036 --> 00:02:53,356 Speaker 2: across a very wide range of consumer goods, and no 40 00:02:53,596 --> 00:02:57,916 Speaker 2: other vegetable oil has the same profile that can drive 41 00:02:58,236 --> 00:03:03,396 Speaker 2: those performance properties. And so even if a company wanted 42 00:03:03,436 --> 00:03:07,836 Speaker 2: to replace palm oil in their products, they really haven't 43 00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:11,436 Speaker 2: been able to because they end up having to sacrifice performance, 44 00:03:11,476 --> 00:03:13,836 Speaker 2: and nobody wants to sacrifice performance. 45 00:03:14,396 --> 00:03:16,756 Speaker 1: Why is palm oil bad. 46 00:03:17,876 --> 00:03:20,116 Speaker 2: The only problem with palm oil is the way that 47 00:03:20,156 --> 00:03:24,316 Speaker 2: it's produced, and the way that is produced primarily today 48 00:03:24,836 --> 00:03:29,996 Speaker 2: is by converting land. The tree it really thrives in 49 00:03:30,036 --> 00:03:32,876 Speaker 2: about a five to ten degree range around the equator. 50 00:03:33,636 --> 00:03:37,796 Speaker 2: That land right around the equator is typically primary forest 51 00:03:37,956 --> 00:03:43,196 Speaker 2: tropical rainforest, which is some of the most biodiverse precious 52 00:03:43,276 --> 00:03:47,076 Speaker 2: land on Earth. Their carbon sinks. Thousands of animal species 53 00:03:47,116 --> 00:03:51,076 Speaker 2: call these home, and palm growers over the past few 54 00:03:51,116 --> 00:03:55,276 Speaker 2: decades have really been moving to clear that land. They 55 00:03:55,316 --> 00:04:00,036 Speaker 2: slash and burn it, which emits tons of carbon dioxide 56 00:04:00,076 --> 00:04:02,956 Speaker 2: into the air. They clear the land and they convert 57 00:04:02,996 --> 00:04:07,396 Speaker 2: it to these single crop palm oil plantations, and so 58 00:04:07,476 --> 00:04:11,756 Speaker 2: the main impacts are carbon dioxide emissions. The palm oil 59 00:04:11,796 --> 00:04:15,956 Speaker 2: industry is responsible for about two percent of global greenhouse 60 00:04:15,996 --> 00:04:19,676 Speaker 2: gas emissions, which is more than the entire global aviation 61 00:04:19,796 --> 00:04:23,596 Speaker 2: sector just this one crop. It has an impact on 62 00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:27,636 Speaker 2: land use, which is converting this sort of precious biodiverse 63 00:04:27,876 --> 00:04:32,836 Speaker 2: rainforest into monoculture where other things can't grow, the impact 64 00:04:32,876 --> 00:04:35,476 Speaker 2: on wildlife, and then I would say, last, but not least, 65 00:04:35,556 --> 00:04:38,236 Speaker 2: or sort of the impact on the humans that live there, 66 00:04:38,596 --> 00:04:41,876 Speaker 2: which is it pollutes the air and the water streams. 67 00:04:41,876 --> 00:04:44,276 Speaker 2: But it also puts lots of people out of their 68 00:04:44,396 --> 00:04:48,756 Speaker 2: home and forced into lowage, very hard labor conditions. 69 00:04:49,716 --> 00:04:53,956 Speaker 1: So okay, so that's the broader context. You personally, as 70 00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:57,196 Speaker 1: I understand it, got into the palm oil or alternative 71 00:04:57,196 --> 00:05:00,076 Speaker 1: palm oil business more or less when you were in 72 00:05:00,116 --> 00:05:02,316 Speaker 1: business school, right, you met your co founders in this 73 00:05:03,156 --> 00:05:07,356 Speaker 1: class the title of which I love, class called revolutionary Ventures. 74 00:05:07,476 --> 00:05:10,356 Speaker 1: Great class name. What what exactly happened there? 75 00:05:10,836 --> 00:05:14,156 Speaker 2: We just start asking, Okay, palm oils and fifty percent 76 00:05:14,156 --> 00:05:18,316 Speaker 2: of products on supermarket shelves. It's really it's one of 77 00:05:18,356 --> 00:05:21,676 Speaker 2: the worst emitters from a greenhouse gas perspective, and every 78 00:05:21,756 --> 00:05:25,876 Speaker 2: major consumer packaged goods company knows it and has admitted 79 00:05:25,876 --> 00:05:29,636 Speaker 2: it and has a palm oil policy to switch from 80 00:05:29,716 --> 00:05:31,236 Speaker 2: what they call conflict palm oil. 81 00:05:32,276 --> 00:05:35,476 Speaker 1: But they've all failed, sort of like the net zero 82 00:05:35,876 --> 00:05:38,156 Speaker 1: of consumer packaged goods. 83 00:05:38,636 --> 00:05:42,396 Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely why and why has it failed. Why has 84 00:05:42,476 --> 00:05:50,116 Speaker 2: agriculture failed to solve this problem? And could microbiology create 85 00:05:50,196 --> 00:05:52,196 Speaker 2: a new way to solve this problem? And what would 86 00:05:52,276 --> 00:05:54,876 Speaker 2: have to be true? And we just got started with 87 00:05:54,956 --> 00:05:58,636 Speaker 2: that really simple question and one thousand dollars from MIT, 88 00:05:59,556 --> 00:06:02,996 Speaker 2: and we started thinking from first principles about how what 89 00:06:03,036 --> 00:06:05,316 Speaker 2: would have to be true, and then we started playing 90 00:06:05,316 --> 00:06:07,316 Speaker 2: around in the lab. And that's how we got started. 91 00:06:07,956 --> 00:06:12,796 Speaker 1: I mean, you have this very abstract idea, let's find 92 00:06:13,276 --> 00:06:16,516 Speaker 1: something that can do what palm oil does without palm trees. 93 00:06:17,956 --> 00:06:20,996 Speaker 1: How do you get from there to a product? 94 00:06:21,116 --> 00:06:24,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the basic idea was, today we make oils 95 00:06:24,396 --> 00:06:31,596 Speaker 2: and fats from petroleum or animals or plants, what if 96 00:06:31,596 --> 00:06:35,996 Speaker 2: we looked at the fungal kingdom microorganisms instead? And so 97 00:06:36,076 --> 00:06:39,236 Speaker 2: the very first step was defining what would have to 98 00:06:39,276 --> 00:06:42,476 Speaker 2: be true at scale for this to succeed. So we 99 00:06:42,596 --> 00:06:45,916 Speaker 2: knew we needed to make I mentioned earlier palm oil 100 00:06:45,996 --> 00:06:47,796 Speaker 2: is so good at what it does because it has 101 00:06:47,836 --> 00:06:53,036 Speaker 2: this really unique profile of fats and not drives performance. 102 00:06:53,036 --> 00:06:55,596 Speaker 1: So it can do lots of different things. It's like 103 00:06:55,756 --> 00:06:57,796 Speaker 1: remarkably useful in many. 104 00:06:57,596 --> 00:06:59,596 Speaker 2: Ways exactly, So we knew if we were going to 105 00:06:59,636 --> 00:07:03,436 Speaker 2: solve this problem we had to nail that profile because 106 00:07:03,436 --> 00:07:05,476 Speaker 2: you had to be able to do all of those 107 00:07:05,676 --> 00:07:07,476 Speaker 2: things remarkably. 108 00:07:07,076 --> 00:07:10,276 Speaker 1: Well, it's not obvious to me that that's the case. 109 00:07:10,316 --> 00:07:11,996 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like you could just bite off 110 00:07:12,036 --> 00:07:14,036 Speaker 1: some of it, right, if you could do the foaming 111 00:07:14,116 --> 00:07:17,076 Speaker 1: part so that you could get palm oil out of shampoo, 112 00:07:17,196 --> 00:07:19,316 Speaker 1: like that would be a big deal, right, I. 113 00:07:19,236 --> 00:07:24,516 Speaker 2: Think that's true. But at this point we had a 114 00:07:24,516 --> 00:07:28,236 Speaker 2: big idea and this really was this really was a 115 00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:32,236 Speaker 2: big problem we were trying to solve, and so that 116 00:07:32,316 --> 00:07:34,396 Speaker 2: was how we thought about it. And so the first 117 00:07:34,396 --> 00:07:37,956 Speaker 2: step is can you find a micro organism which can 118 00:07:37,996 --> 00:07:42,276 Speaker 2: make oil, which can make this profile, this profile that 119 00:07:42,356 --> 00:07:45,076 Speaker 2: looks and functions like pome And just. 120 00:07:44,956 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 1: To be clear, why is a micro organism better than 121 00:07:48,476 --> 00:07:49,076 Speaker 1: a plant? 122 00:07:49,876 --> 00:07:52,996 Speaker 2: One of the I think big promises of this field, 123 00:07:53,076 --> 00:07:56,836 Speaker 2: and when we started thinking about it is plants have 124 00:07:56,996 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 2: big footprints, and right now they require specific conditions of 125 00:08:02,356 --> 00:08:07,436 Speaker 2: growth on arable land, and microorganisms don't need arable land. 126 00:08:07,636 --> 00:08:11,236 Speaker 2: They don't need to convert rainforest and clear them and 127 00:08:11,276 --> 00:08:14,316 Speaker 2: convert them into plantations and kill all the life that 128 00:08:14,356 --> 00:08:21,156 Speaker 2: lives there. Microorganisms can be produced in factories anywhere in 129 00:08:21,196 --> 00:08:21,596 Speaker 2: the world. 130 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:25,436 Speaker 1: They just need a big metal tankt rate heat, and 131 00:08:25,476 --> 00:08:26,396 Speaker 1: some sugar. 132 00:08:26,076 --> 00:08:29,796 Speaker 2: Technricity, some basic, some basic things. I think that was 133 00:08:29,836 --> 00:08:34,396 Speaker 2: the primary sort of concept. The hard question was can 134 00:08:34,516 --> 00:08:38,836 Speaker 2: microorganisms actually make the products? And can they make them 135 00:08:39,156 --> 00:08:42,556 Speaker 2: scalably and can they make them cost effectively? So can 136 00:08:42,596 --> 00:08:46,196 Speaker 2: you make the right product at scale and cost competitively? 137 00:08:46,356 --> 00:08:48,996 Speaker 2: That was the sort of unknown part and that was 138 00:08:49,036 --> 00:08:52,276 Speaker 2: what we had to figure out first. And we basically 139 00:08:52,316 --> 00:08:58,396 Speaker 2: started by screening thousands of microorganisms against that criteria to say, 140 00:08:58,796 --> 00:09:03,876 Speaker 2: could we find an organism that makes the right oil profile. 141 00:09:04,876 --> 00:09:08,756 Speaker 2: It is, in theory robust enough to scale to super 142 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:11,956 Speaker 2: large volumes, because there's tens of millions of metric tons 143 00:09:12,036 --> 00:09:15,676 Speaker 2: of palm oil produced a year, and again we're thinking revolutionary. 144 00:09:15,756 --> 00:09:19,476 Speaker 2: We've got to go really really big and can compete 145 00:09:19,516 --> 00:09:21,076 Speaker 2: on cost and so it's got to be a really 146 00:09:21,116 --> 00:09:23,996 Speaker 2: efficient production system. And so that was the first set 147 00:09:24,036 --> 00:09:25,716 Speaker 2: of questions that we asked. 148 00:09:26,876 --> 00:09:31,836 Speaker 1: And when you're trying to find the right micro organism, 149 00:09:33,236 --> 00:09:36,596 Speaker 1: are you you're looking at the literature? Is there some 150 00:09:36,676 --> 00:09:40,236 Speaker 1: point where you start like growing yeast in a tank? 151 00:09:40,316 --> 00:09:42,276 Speaker 1: I mean, what is it? How do you find how 152 00:09:42,276 --> 00:09:42,756 Speaker 1: do you look? 153 00:09:42,956 --> 00:09:47,756 Speaker 2: Yes? And yes, so you start with the literature, and 154 00:09:47,796 --> 00:09:50,036 Speaker 2: you start with history, and so you look back and 155 00:09:50,076 --> 00:09:54,916 Speaker 2: see what have people made successfully in the past and why, 156 00:09:55,516 --> 00:09:57,676 Speaker 2: And you know, a lot of work had actually been 157 00:09:57,716 --> 00:10:01,316 Speaker 2: done for things like biofuels in the past, which is 158 00:10:01,796 --> 00:10:05,076 Speaker 2: similar to the profile that we were making. There were 159 00:10:05,396 --> 00:10:10,196 Speaker 2: reasons we thought biofuels didn't work as well, but there 160 00:10:10,236 --> 00:10:13,196 Speaker 2: were technical proofs of concept there. So we got to 161 00:10:13,276 --> 00:10:16,556 Speaker 2: learn a lot from history, and then we looked at 162 00:10:16,596 --> 00:10:19,676 Speaker 2: the literature for sure, and one of the things we 163 00:10:19,796 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 2: learned is that again, getting this specific profile of palm 164 00:10:24,236 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 2: is really different than how most industrial microbiology works today. 165 00:10:29,276 --> 00:10:33,836 Speaker 2: Most companies are making fairly simple molecules. They're making alcohol, 166 00:10:34,276 --> 00:10:38,276 Speaker 2: they're making a single molecule protein artificial. You know, vanilla 167 00:10:38,396 --> 00:10:43,316 Speaker 2: is almost one hundred percent made from fermentation today, single molecule. 168 00:10:44,076 --> 00:10:47,196 Speaker 2: This was a complex molecule, and so we quickly learned 169 00:10:47,276 --> 00:10:51,836 Speaker 2: we needed a different type of microorganism, not one that 170 00:10:51,956 --> 00:10:55,836 Speaker 2: was necessarily the best factory with the best set of tools, 171 00:10:56,556 --> 00:11:01,796 Speaker 2: but instead a strain which was just really good at 172 00:11:01,956 --> 00:11:07,756 Speaker 2: getting fat. And so these are referred to as oleagenous. 173 00:11:07,916 --> 00:11:11,276 Speaker 2: Oleaginous means oil, and so there's a whole set of 174 00:11:11,436 --> 00:11:15,196 Speaker 2: oleagenous organisms that naturally produce that, And so that was 175 00:11:15,236 --> 00:11:18,956 Speaker 2: the first unlock. They had not really been used in 176 00:11:18,956 --> 00:11:23,036 Speaker 2: industrial scale production historically, so we were going to have 177 00:11:23,156 --> 00:11:25,836 Speaker 2: to build a lot of the tools and the know 178 00:11:25,996 --> 00:11:27,876 Speaker 2: how to be able to grow it. But it was 179 00:11:27,956 --> 00:11:30,756 Speaker 2: really promising. And so then the next step was you 180 00:11:30,836 --> 00:11:33,116 Speaker 2: start to grow it. You get a strain, you do 181 00:11:33,316 --> 00:11:37,476 Speaker 2: really small scale experiments in the lab, and you just 182 00:11:37,596 --> 00:11:40,516 Speaker 2: try to get something which vaguely looks and functions like 183 00:11:40,596 --> 00:11:42,476 Speaker 2: palm oil. And that was that was sort of the 184 00:11:42,476 --> 00:11:43,756 Speaker 2: first big breakthrough for us. 185 00:11:47,556 --> 00:11:52,396 Speaker 1: Did you consider surely you considered synthetic biology? Right like, 186 00:11:52,476 --> 00:11:56,156 Speaker 1: right there in Boston there's a giant at least one 187 00:11:56,196 --> 00:12:00,276 Speaker 1: giant company that you know, their whole business is taking 188 00:12:00,396 --> 00:12:05,596 Speaker 1: yeast and genetically engineering the yeast to produce things other 189 00:12:05,636 --> 00:12:08,796 Speaker 1: than the yeast usually produces. Did you consider that? 190 00:12:09,196 --> 00:12:13,276 Speaker 2: So that was I think maybe our first hypothesis. What 191 00:12:13,316 --> 00:12:17,676 Speaker 2: we learned was it actually doesn't have to be that 192 00:12:17,836 --> 00:12:22,996 Speaker 2: hard like nature. Nature actually does a lot of really 193 00:12:23,076 --> 00:12:26,676 Speaker 2: cool stuff, uh huh, And if we can just work 194 00:12:26,756 --> 00:12:32,556 Speaker 2: with what she nature has already done, that's really promising 195 00:12:32,636 --> 00:12:35,956 Speaker 2: for actually getting this thing to scale and be cheap, 196 00:12:36,396 --> 00:12:38,636 Speaker 2: and I think like, when we look at synthetic biology, 197 00:12:38,796 --> 00:12:40,916 Speaker 2: that was the field that we were sort of enamored 198 00:12:40,956 --> 00:12:43,316 Speaker 2: with at the time and that we thought was very promising. 199 00:12:44,076 --> 00:12:46,156 Speaker 2: But it's a hard field to scale. 200 00:12:45,796 --> 00:12:50,396 Speaker 1: Commercially, notoriously. Right, It's been like on the cusp of 201 00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:52,636 Speaker 1: being huge for twenty years, right, And. 202 00:12:52,556 --> 00:12:56,276 Speaker 2: So looking around the cusp of synthetic biology, but saying, like, 203 00:12:56,796 --> 00:13:00,556 Speaker 2: how do we just like really focus on solving the problem. 204 00:13:00,676 --> 00:13:04,076 Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be the shiniest toolkit it needs 205 00:13:04,116 --> 00:13:06,636 Speaker 2: to solve the problem. Maybe if we take it a 206 00:13:06,676 --> 00:13:09,996 Speaker 2: little bit simpler. And so instead of taking one of 207 00:13:10,036 --> 00:13:14,396 Speaker 2: these sort of industrial microorganisms with a standard toolkit and 208 00:13:14,436 --> 00:13:18,356 Speaker 2: implying all applying all the tools of engineering and trying 209 00:13:18,356 --> 00:13:21,636 Speaker 2: to really force a yeast to do something that it 210 00:13:21,716 --> 00:13:25,236 Speaker 2: doesn't do naturally, what if we've found a yeast that 211 00:13:25,316 --> 00:13:28,756 Speaker 2: actually has evolved for centuries to do exactly what we 212 00:13:28,796 --> 00:13:31,956 Speaker 2: want it to do, and we can force it through 213 00:13:31,996 --> 00:13:36,916 Speaker 2: faster cycles of evolution, and we can use rapid experimentation 214 00:13:37,196 --> 00:13:41,436 Speaker 2: in data to understand better than ever how it grows 215 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:45,676 Speaker 2: and optimize its performance of growth. That sounds a lot 216 00:13:45,716 --> 00:13:49,396 Speaker 2: more promising to actually building a commercially viable solution to 217 00:13:49,476 --> 00:13:51,316 Speaker 2: this problem, and that's where we landed. 218 00:13:51,796 --> 00:13:55,676 Speaker 1: So it seems like the like the fact that there 219 00:13:55,676 --> 00:13:59,916 Speaker 1: are oleagenous micro organisms that you know, oily micro organisms. 220 00:13:59,956 --> 00:14:03,556 Speaker 1: Basically it suggests that the production of oil is like 221 00:14:03,676 --> 00:14:07,196 Speaker 1: profoundly conserved, right, Like we get oil from plants and animals. 222 00:14:07,276 --> 00:14:11,116 Speaker 1: But this fact that it's that there's oily yeast too 223 00:14:11,316 --> 00:14:15,036 Speaker 1: is encouraging in your quest. It's like, oh, there's everything 224 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:17,436 Speaker 1: that lives makes oil, and some things that live make 225 00:14:17,516 --> 00:14:19,116 Speaker 1: a ton of oil. Let's look at the things that 226 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:20,556 Speaker 1: live that already make a ton of oil. 227 00:14:20,676 --> 00:14:23,556 Speaker 2: Yea. Yeah, And it also I think, just says something 228 00:14:23,596 --> 00:14:26,356 Speaker 2: about the value of oils and fats, right, Like, there's 229 00:14:26,556 --> 00:14:30,156 Speaker 2: there's clearly a need for these molecules across across lots 230 00:14:30,156 --> 00:14:31,116 Speaker 2: of appleties. 231 00:14:31,116 --> 00:14:35,756 Speaker 1: The reason they're in everything at the store. So, so 232 00:14:36,356 --> 00:14:39,556 Speaker 1: is there some moment where you're like, we found it, 233 00:14:39,676 --> 00:14:45,716 Speaker 1: We've got the magic yeast. You're still waiting for them. 234 00:14:46,076 --> 00:14:48,876 Speaker 2: No, it's a good question, I mean, I think, and 235 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:52,476 Speaker 2: look like science is never a street line. And so 236 00:14:53,156 --> 00:14:57,036 Speaker 2: in the early days, you know, we had we our 237 00:14:57,196 --> 00:15:01,356 Speaker 2: first approach to this was slightly less simple, right, It 238 00:15:01,396 --> 00:15:08,476 Speaker 2: was a little more innovative and clever, but much harder 239 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:10,436 Speaker 2: to scale. And so I think we thought we had 240 00:15:10,476 --> 00:15:13,756 Speaker 2: that moment and then we had another. 241 00:15:13,756 --> 00:15:16,476 Speaker 1: Wait, wait, tell me, tell me about the one that 242 00:15:16,516 --> 00:15:19,156 Speaker 1: didn't work. Uh, what was the one that ended up 243 00:15:19,196 --> 00:15:19,916 Speaker 1: being too clever? 244 00:15:20,116 --> 00:15:23,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was. Actually so most of most of 245 00:15:23,156 --> 00:15:29,716 Speaker 2: industrial biology today is a single micro organism, engineering, you know, 246 00:15:29,756 --> 00:15:32,756 Speaker 2: the hell out of it, and then scaling it. And 247 00:15:33,276 --> 00:15:37,276 Speaker 2: we sort of said, okay, but actually, in nature again, 248 00:15:37,316 --> 00:15:39,716 Speaker 2: I think we've we've always been very inspired by what 249 00:15:39,836 --> 00:15:45,396 Speaker 2: happens in nature. In nature, you see microorganisms coexist in 250 00:15:45,476 --> 00:15:50,836 Speaker 2: our microbiome, for example, or in lichens on rocks. And 251 00:15:50,916 --> 00:15:53,916 Speaker 2: so what if we took a micro organism like a 252 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:57,236 Speaker 2: yeast that was really good at making oil, and then 253 00:15:57,316 --> 00:16:01,836 Speaker 2: we took one but the yeast needs sugar, and so 254 00:16:01,876 --> 00:16:05,436 Speaker 2: then what if we combined it with an algae that 255 00:16:05,516 --> 00:16:09,236 Speaker 2: was photosynthetic, and so then you don't need sugar, you 256 00:16:09,276 --> 00:16:09,956 Speaker 2: just need the sun. 257 00:16:10,796 --> 00:16:14,396 Speaker 1: That is indeed clever, so you're lowering your input costs. 258 00:16:14,396 --> 00:16:16,556 Speaker 2: Exactly, I need to grow them in the same pot, 259 00:16:16,636 --> 00:16:19,876 Speaker 2: which really nobody had done before. And so this is 260 00:16:19,916 --> 00:16:25,236 Speaker 2: actually our first patent filing. This coculture of yeast and algae. 261 00:16:25,276 --> 00:16:28,716 Speaker 2: And it's actually our first logo for the company, which 262 00:16:28,796 --> 00:16:33,556 Speaker 2: is hideous but made in Microsoft PowerPoint. 263 00:16:33,756 --> 00:16:36,196 Speaker 1: And turned out to be based on an assumption that 264 00:16:36,236 --> 00:16:38,916 Speaker 1: didn't work. It sounds like, but I think it just would. 265 00:16:38,676 --> 00:16:40,796 Speaker 2: Have been very hard to scale it. 266 00:16:40,636 --> 00:16:44,036 Speaker 1: So you have this very elegant idea, which I love 267 00:16:44,116 --> 00:16:48,596 Speaker 1: because it's so satisfying and efficient. What happens, So. 268 00:16:48,596 --> 00:16:53,716 Speaker 2: That's working, and what happens is actually I was at 269 00:16:53,756 --> 00:16:56,876 Speaker 2: a trade show. I was at a food tech trade show, 270 00:16:57,076 --> 00:16:59,636 Speaker 2: just walking the floor. This is really early days. It's 271 00:16:59,676 --> 00:17:02,596 Speaker 2: just me and my co founders. We've like soft committed 272 00:17:02,596 --> 00:17:04,636 Speaker 2: to this concept. And I'm just walking the floor to 273 00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:07,516 Speaker 2: trade show trying to see who cares about palm oil 274 00:17:07,596 --> 00:17:11,676 Speaker 2: and is anybody you know interested? And I run into 275 00:17:11,676 --> 00:17:15,716 Speaker 2: someone who's got a bunch of clever ideas on basically 276 00:17:15,796 --> 00:17:23,196 Speaker 2: waste stream feedstocks so cheaper than sugar, available in millions 277 00:17:23,196 --> 00:17:27,516 Speaker 2: of gallons per year, really scalable, cheap, up cycled. 278 00:17:28,356 --> 00:17:33,036 Speaker 1: And just to contextualize that, I mean, growing yeast is 279 00:17:33,156 --> 00:17:35,156 Speaker 1: very simple, and people say all you need to do 280 00:17:35,236 --> 00:17:38,196 Speaker 1: is feed them sugar, but you're pointing out here, like 281 00:17:38,356 --> 00:17:39,596 Speaker 1: sugar is not free. 282 00:17:39,716 --> 00:17:40,396 Speaker 2: Sugar's not free. 283 00:17:40,996 --> 00:17:44,356 Speaker 1: Palm oil is like very efficiently produced and very cheap, 284 00:17:44,436 --> 00:17:48,076 Speaker 1: and so even the input cost of the sugar is important, 285 00:17:48,156 --> 00:17:50,076 Speaker 1: is an important cost that you need to drive down 286 00:17:50,076 --> 00:17:50,556 Speaker 1: if you're going. 287 00:17:50,516 --> 00:17:52,996 Speaker 2: To be for rich. It's all math. And I think 288 00:17:53,236 --> 00:17:57,956 Speaker 2: when like to sort of to anchor this around the 289 00:17:58,036 --> 00:18:01,996 Speaker 2: key problem at this point, the scientific solution we had 290 00:18:02,396 --> 00:18:06,956 Speaker 2: was elegant and clever, but we're also trying to build 291 00:18:06,956 --> 00:18:12,876 Speaker 2: a business, and I think, you know, oftentimes science based businesses, 292 00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:16,116 Speaker 2: it's easy to forget that, you know, And I think 293 00:18:16,476 --> 00:18:19,316 Speaker 2: we were really trying to anchor and say, yes, this 294 00:18:19,396 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 2: is elegant and clever, However, how do we build this 295 00:18:22,436 --> 00:18:26,116 Speaker 2: into a sustainable, profitable, scalable business over time? And we 296 00:18:26,156 --> 00:18:29,396 Speaker 2: were really early, but I think we were always anchored 297 00:18:29,396 --> 00:18:33,196 Speaker 2: towards that in the early days. And sugar and where 298 00:18:33,236 --> 00:18:35,836 Speaker 2: we got our sugar and what we paid for our 299 00:18:35,876 --> 00:18:41,356 Speaker 2: sugar was sort of the critical question we unlocked as 300 00:18:41,356 --> 00:18:44,356 Speaker 2: an insight that we needed to solve from the early days. 301 00:18:44,476 --> 00:18:48,276 Speaker 1: This is the fundamental sort of techno economic problem. And 302 00:18:48,356 --> 00:18:51,756 Speaker 1: so it seems I don't want to attach too much 303 00:18:51,836 --> 00:18:57,116 Speaker 1: to the photosynthesis solution, but just to be very clear. 304 00:18:57,436 --> 00:18:59,996 Speaker 1: I love that solution. It seems like you're solving the problem. 305 00:19:00,596 --> 00:19:03,236 Speaker 1: Why why didn't you go that way? 306 00:19:04,516 --> 00:19:08,196 Speaker 2: To two reasons. One was sort of biology and one 307 00:19:08,236 --> 00:19:14,316 Speaker 2: was manufacturing from a biology perspective. Clever, but you know, 308 00:19:15,796 --> 00:19:19,356 Speaker 2: actually still really hard to get two micro organisms to 309 00:19:19,516 --> 00:19:24,276 Speaker 2: grow in sync efficiently together, which again all goes back 310 00:19:24,316 --> 00:19:28,236 Speaker 2: to the math or the technoeconomics of making this scalable. 311 00:19:28,596 --> 00:19:32,116 Speaker 2: And the second was a manufacturing problem, which is, because 312 00:19:32,156 --> 00:19:34,836 Speaker 2: it was so novel, we would actually need to build 313 00:19:35,036 --> 00:19:39,756 Speaker 2: totally new bioreactors to support this, and then you're not 314 00:19:39,876 --> 00:19:43,916 Speaker 2: only a technology company, you're now manufacturing all the parts. 315 00:19:43,956 --> 00:19:47,716 Speaker 2: It just would have become too much and too expensive. 316 00:19:48,116 --> 00:19:53,756 Speaker 1: Okay, too clever, too too too far, too far out 317 00:19:53,876 --> 00:19:56,276 Speaker 1: beyond the technological frontier at some level. 318 00:19:56,356 --> 00:19:59,556 Speaker 2: And so back in sugar being the core problem that 319 00:19:59,596 --> 00:20:03,156 Speaker 2: we needed to solve to make this work, we started 320 00:20:03,196 --> 00:20:06,876 Speaker 2: trying a bunch of you know, waste, things that would 321 00:20:06,916 --> 00:20:11,076 Speaker 2: be totally not obvious an organism could grow on them, 322 00:20:11,556 --> 00:20:16,036 Speaker 2: things that didn't have tons of residual carbon, things that 323 00:20:16,116 --> 00:20:19,436 Speaker 2: had inhibitors, things that were known to actually inhibit growth, 324 00:20:19,516 --> 00:20:22,556 Speaker 2: not enable growth. And we started growing. And this is 325 00:20:22,556 --> 00:20:23,636 Speaker 2: again very early. 326 00:20:23,516 --> 00:20:25,796 Speaker 1: Days, you're looking for all those things because they're cheap, 327 00:20:25,796 --> 00:20:27,836 Speaker 1: because you're looking for a thing that's cheaper than just 328 00:20:27,956 --> 00:20:33,156 Speaker 1: buying granulated sugar or whatever you buy for regular yeast. Yeah, 329 00:20:33,396 --> 00:20:34,356 Speaker 1: cheap and abundant. 330 00:20:34,436 --> 00:20:37,796 Speaker 2: Cheap and abundant. And this is this is early days, 331 00:20:37,876 --> 00:20:40,676 Speaker 2: So it's scrappy science. It's just me and my co founders. 332 00:20:40,676 --> 00:20:43,996 Speaker 2: We don't have any sophisticated lab tools. But we get 333 00:20:43,996 --> 00:20:46,436 Speaker 2: some of those samples and we start growing our yeast 334 00:20:46,876 --> 00:20:50,676 Speaker 2: and it turns out the yeast grows on anything. 335 00:20:51,476 --> 00:20:52,316 Speaker 1: Oh that's great. 336 00:20:52,436 --> 00:20:54,556 Speaker 2: This was one of our This was maybe back to 337 00:20:54,596 --> 00:20:57,796 Speaker 2: your question, one of our biggest insights and breakthroughs. Yeah, 338 00:20:57,796 --> 00:20:59,236 Speaker 2: and it was a really important one. 339 00:20:59,356 --> 00:21:01,436 Speaker 1: Say like what if we just give it garbage? 340 00:21:01,636 --> 00:21:02,516 Speaker 2: Totally it works. 341 00:21:02,556 --> 00:21:03,436 Speaker 1: It's eating garbage. 342 00:21:03,476 --> 00:21:06,116 Speaker 2: And we later literally did that, like we we food 343 00:21:06,116 --> 00:21:08,276 Speaker 2: waste to something people talk about a lot, which is 344 00:21:09,196 --> 00:21:12,636 Speaker 2: an unsolved problem on many fronts. But we worked with 345 00:21:12,836 --> 00:21:15,556 Speaker 2: you know, food waste collection here in New York, and 346 00:21:15,596 --> 00:21:19,756 Speaker 2: we just basically fetied garbage and it was growing. There 347 00:21:19,756 --> 00:21:22,676 Speaker 2: are other reasons I think that's hard to scale, but yeah, 348 00:21:22,756 --> 00:21:26,676 Speaker 2: basically we found not only can our yeast make this 349 00:21:27,796 --> 00:21:31,876 Speaker 2: hard to replicate profile of palm oil that nothing else 350 00:21:32,076 --> 00:21:37,756 Speaker 2: has produced naturally before. Aside from palm oil, it can 351 00:21:37,836 --> 00:21:41,636 Speaker 2: also grow on anything. It can eat anything, and that 352 00:21:41,956 --> 00:21:44,996 Speaker 2: was a key unlock for So we'd solved the product 353 00:21:45,276 --> 00:21:47,596 Speaker 2: side of it, and now we were well on our 354 00:21:47,636 --> 00:21:50,076 Speaker 2: way to solving the cost side of it and the 355 00:21:50,076 --> 00:21:51,116 Speaker 2: scalability side of it. 356 00:21:51,436 --> 00:21:57,356 Speaker 1: The particular strain of yeast, when do you find that, like, 357 00:21:57,396 --> 00:21:58,276 Speaker 1: what is that moment? 358 00:21:58,356 --> 00:22:04,796 Speaker 2: Pretty early, actually, pretty early, we had identified, based on 359 00:22:04,836 --> 00:22:10,276 Speaker 2: our criteria of the right profile and from literature, a 360 00:22:10,356 --> 00:22:14,156 Speaker 2: believable ability to scale, So things like can it grow 361 00:22:14,396 --> 00:22:18,916 Speaker 2: on a wide range of temperatures without breaking? Or is 362 00:22:18,956 --> 00:22:22,156 Speaker 2: it really fragile? And if the temperature changes. All of 363 00:22:22,156 --> 00:22:26,836 Speaker 2: these things model into cost at scale manufacturing. So we 364 00:22:26,876 --> 00:22:30,076 Speaker 2: screened for those things pretty early, and we pretty early 365 00:22:30,116 --> 00:22:33,236 Speaker 2: on had identified the yeast strain that we work with 366 00:22:33,316 --> 00:22:35,436 Speaker 2: today as the best version. 367 00:22:36,316 --> 00:22:38,876 Speaker 1: So tell me about tell me about the strain of yeast. 368 00:22:39,556 --> 00:22:45,156 Speaker 2: So it is oleagenous, so it naturally produces oil and 369 00:22:45,196 --> 00:22:48,076 Speaker 2: it's really good. So basically it can produce up to 370 00:22:48,196 --> 00:22:53,076 Speaker 2: ninety percent of its body weight in lipids in facts. 371 00:22:53,596 --> 00:22:59,196 Speaker 2: When we started working with it, which was seven years ago, 372 00:23:00,316 --> 00:23:03,316 Speaker 2: the genome had been sequenced, so there was enough data 373 00:23:03,396 --> 00:23:07,436 Speaker 2: about it, and there were a couple of universities that 374 00:23:07,716 --> 00:23:10,996 Speaker 2: had started to do work on it. So we weren't, 375 00:23:11,076 --> 00:23:13,916 Speaker 2: you know, the first people to discover it, but it 376 00:23:13,996 --> 00:23:17,556 Speaker 2: wasn't something that was really ubiquitous like a baker's yeast 377 00:23:17,636 --> 00:23:20,836 Speaker 2: or a brewer's yeast, and so we had enough data 378 00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:24,436 Speaker 2: to believe that it was compelling and we started working 379 00:23:24,436 --> 00:23:24,756 Speaker 2: with it. 380 00:23:25,156 --> 00:23:26,716 Speaker 1: What's what's it called? 381 00:23:27,796 --> 00:23:30,556 Speaker 2: It's we don't really say the name of it. 382 00:23:30,596 --> 00:23:32,796 Speaker 1: Isn't it in a patent? You didn't patent the name of. 383 00:23:32,716 --> 00:23:34,676 Speaker 2: It it is, but they haven't been published yet. 384 00:23:35,676 --> 00:23:40,076 Speaker 1: Okay, well, I'll keep my eye out. So you've got 385 00:23:40,116 --> 00:23:46,596 Speaker 1: your yeast, you can feed at garbage. And this is 386 00:23:46,756 --> 00:23:50,316 Speaker 1: like what kind of scale are you doing this set like? 387 00:23:50,516 --> 00:23:53,836 Speaker 1: Is it like like a like a lab bench? Is 388 00:23:53,876 --> 00:23:55,756 Speaker 1: it like a pot? 389 00:23:56,276 --> 00:24:01,756 Speaker 2: It's both. In the early days when we were sort 390 00:24:01,796 --> 00:24:05,156 Speaker 2: of looking to get our first round of funding, we 391 00:24:05,156 --> 00:24:07,956 Speaker 2: were going, you know, on stage at y Combinator for 392 00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:09,436 Speaker 2: something called Demo Day. 393 00:24:09,876 --> 00:24:12,236 Speaker 1: So why Commeter is the famous startup incubator. 394 00:24:12,276 --> 00:24:16,316 Speaker 2: Correct, So they'd taken a bet on our revolutionary venture 395 00:24:17,116 --> 00:24:20,196 Speaker 2: and we were so early, I mean We basically had 396 00:24:20,236 --> 00:24:25,636 Speaker 2: some some shape flask, so millileater. But at the end 397 00:24:25,716 --> 00:24:28,436 Speaker 2: of demo day, you know, we're still We're a science 398 00:24:28,476 --> 00:24:31,676 Speaker 2: project at this point with a really big market. And 399 00:24:31,756 --> 00:24:35,916 Speaker 2: so we had this i'd say pressure to want to 400 00:24:36,476 --> 00:24:39,236 Speaker 2: make it real. One of you know the things about 401 00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:44,156 Speaker 2: science based businesses. It's great, the concept is great, but 402 00:24:44,516 --> 00:24:46,916 Speaker 2: to get funding, you need to make it real as 403 00:24:46,956 --> 00:24:49,116 Speaker 2: soon as possible. As soon as it's real, people get it. 404 00:24:49,156 --> 00:24:52,076 Speaker 2: And so we felt we needed pressure to be able 405 00:24:52,076 --> 00:24:56,756 Speaker 2: to make something not in tiny, little milli leader quantities, 406 00:24:57,036 --> 00:24:59,876 Speaker 2: but something that I could hold up on stage in 407 00:24:59,916 --> 00:25:03,076 Speaker 2: a room full of hundreds or thousands of people could 408 00:25:03,116 --> 00:25:08,316 Speaker 2: see as material. And so we had one lab bench 409 00:25:08,396 --> 00:25:12,236 Speaker 2: that we were rent and we were just having problems 410 00:25:12,276 --> 00:25:17,196 Speaker 2: in the lab. The standards were not working, we were 411 00:25:17,516 --> 00:25:20,836 Speaker 2: not making enough oil, the experiments weren't working, and so 412 00:25:21,836 --> 00:25:25,116 Speaker 2: we went over to a friend's house who was a homebrewer, 413 00:25:25,356 --> 00:25:30,796 Speaker 2: actually a beer brewer, and we used his big pot 414 00:25:31,236 --> 00:25:33,796 Speaker 2: for making what he uses to make beer at home 415 00:25:34,436 --> 00:25:37,036 Speaker 2: out on his porch. So normally you think about science 416 00:25:37,076 --> 00:25:41,436 Speaker 2: as being very precious in a controlled environment, etc. We 417 00:25:41,636 --> 00:25:43,756 Speaker 2: just did the opposite. We were like, we just got 418 00:25:43,796 --> 00:25:46,516 Speaker 2: to go for it. So we went out onto his porch, 419 00:25:47,196 --> 00:25:49,996 Speaker 2: used his home beer brewing material and we call it 420 00:25:50,036 --> 00:25:53,596 Speaker 2: sort of porch yeast, and we brewed a batch of 421 00:25:53,756 --> 00:25:55,676 Speaker 2: oil from there. 422 00:25:57,196 --> 00:25:59,836 Speaker 1: And then what do you get? What is the output? 423 00:26:00,156 --> 00:26:00,796 Speaker 2: A sludge? 424 00:26:02,156 --> 00:26:04,316 Speaker 1: I don't like so it looks like muddy water? What's 425 00:26:04,356 --> 00:26:04,796 Speaker 1: it look like? 426 00:26:04,876 --> 00:26:09,596 Speaker 2: It does? But it's pretty. So our yeast actually produces karateids. 427 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:12,756 Speaker 2: Caratenoids are also found in carrots. Beta carotene is what 428 00:26:12,876 --> 00:26:15,836 Speaker 2: makes carrots orange, and it's why carrots are good for 429 00:26:15,876 --> 00:26:19,956 Speaker 2: eye health. And so our sledge is orangish basically cool. 430 00:26:19,996 --> 00:26:22,516 Speaker 2: So it's actually quite pretty. It's like a it's like 431 00:26:22,556 --> 00:26:26,076 Speaker 2: a it's like a creamsicle almost. 432 00:26:26,236 --> 00:26:29,116 Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, okay, so you got your creamsicle sludge. 433 00:26:29,196 --> 00:26:31,756 Speaker 1: It's demo day. What like you put it in like 434 00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:34,316 Speaker 1: a plastic jug or something. 435 00:26:34,036 --> 00:26:36,276 Speaker 2: Just like basically what happens. We had to fly to 436 00:26:36,316 --> 00:26:40,716 Speaker 2: California with it and we put it in a plastic 437 00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:44,316 Speaker 2: jug basically, and we carried it around in our rental 438 00:26:44,396 --> 00:26:48,156 Speaker 2: car all week. And then we got on stage and 439 00:26:48,276 --> 00:26:49,916 Speaker 2: you know, we had a sort of line where we're 440 00:26:49,956 --> 00:26:52,996 Speaker 2: talking about palm oil, and we kind of held the 441 00:26:54,396 --> 00:26:57,316 Speaker 2: jug with a little bit of oil, and we said, 442 00:26:57,756 --> 00:27:01,396 Speaker 2: and this is palm oil, but it's made from yeast 443 00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:03,796 Speaker 2: and not trees. 444 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:08,116 Speaker 1: Still to come on the show. Getting from that homebrewed 445 00:27:08,196 --> 00:27:13,836 Speaker 1: jug of creamsicle sludge to hundreds of tons of creamsicle sledge. 446 00:27:26,476 --> 00:27:29,796 Speaker 1: We're not yet to scale and cost, which clearly are hard, 447 00:27:30,396 --> 00:27:32,356 Speaker 1: but at least in terms of the thing, you've got 448 00:27:32,356 --> 00:27:32,756 Speaker 1: the thing. 449 00:27:33,836 --> 00:27:36,716 Speaker 2: We've got this, okay, And I think we got the 450 00:27:36,756 --> 00:27:40,916 Speaker 2: thing pretty early. Yeah, And that was important because, as 451 00:27:40,956 --> 00:27:42,916 Speaker 2: you allude to, we have a whole bunch of other 452 00:27:42,956 --> 00:27:45,836 Speaker 2: problems to solve, and so you know, as you're building 453 00:27:45,836 --> 00:27:47,916 Speaker 2: a business like this, I think we try to think 454 00:27:47,956 --> 00:27:51,716 Speaker 2: about what's the most important thing to solve, what's the 455 00:27:51,716 --> 00:27:55,676 Speaker 2: most important problem to solve right now? And at that point, 456 00:27:55,716 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 2: it was still the stuff around. The technology basically works, 457 00:28:00,156 --> 00:28:03,676 Speaker 2: so further it prove that it can scale, prove that 458 00:28:03,716 --> 00:28:08,236 Speaker 2: you can get to competitive economics, and then figure out 459 00:28:08,396 --> 00:28:11,876 Speaker 2: actually scale, figure out mark, go to market, figure out 460 00:28:11,876 --> 00:28:14,236 Speaker 2: all of that later. But that was really the first 461 00:28:14,276 --> 00:28:15,236 Speaker 2: big problem. 462 00:28:16,636 --> 00:28:19,756 Speaker 1: I mean, it always seems with things in a lab. 463 00:28:19,796 --> 00:28:22,716 Speaker 1: And this is like Pad Brown from Impossible Foods says 464 00:28:22,756 --> 00:28:25,796 Speaker 1: this too. It's like it's hard to grow plants and animals. 465 00:28:25,796 --> 00:28:27,716 Speaker 1: They're big, they take up a lot of space. If 466 00:28:27,756 --> 00:28:29,436 Speaker 1: you could do a thing in a va, it should 467 00:28:29,516 --> 00:28:32,556 Speaker 1: be cheaper. Like, clearly it's hard. There's a lot embedded 468 00:28:32,596 --> 00:28:36,876 Speaker 1: in that should right, but at a just first principles level, 469 00:28:37,036 --> 00:28:40,716 Speaker 1: it seems totally plausible'. 470 00:28:40,236 --> 00:28:45,236 Speaker 2: That's the promise of what we're all working on the 471 00:28:45,276 --> 00:28:47,876 Speaker 2: place where the rubber hits the road is like you 472 00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:50,876 Speaker 2: have to be making the right molecule and the right market. 473 00:28:50,876 --> 00:28:54,076 Speaker 1: And scale is really hard, right that, Like agriculture is 474 00:28:54,156 --> 00:28:57,996 Speaker 1: so highly it's so vast, there's so much economy of scale. 475 00:28:58,436 --> 00:29:03,036 Speaker 1: It's very efficient. I mean, obviously there's like externalities that 476 00:29:03,036 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 1: they're not paying for, but like, even so agriculture is 477 00:29:07,436 --> 00:29:09,996 Speaker 1: super efficient, say that for it, they're very good at 478 00:29:10,036 --> 00:29:11,436 Speaker 1: making a lot of what they make cheap. 479 00:29:11,476 --> 00:29:14,276 Speaker 2: Laying it is, they've also had a really long time 480 00:29:14,476 --> 00:29:17,516 Speaker 2: to make it efficient. And so one of the just 481 00:29:17,796 --> 00:29:21,276 Speaker 2: challenges of I would say, like any novel technology competing 482 00:29:21,276 --> 00:29:25,116 Speaker 2: against a big incumbent like that and specifically ours, is 483 00:29:25,716 --> 00:29:29,516 Speaker 2: they've had a century plus advantage on us for getting 484 00:29:29,516 --> 00:29:32,476 Speaker 2: it to scale, for getting those costs, and so of 485 00:29:32,556 --> 00:29:34,756 Speaker 2: course it takes us more time and money to get there. 486 00:29:34,796 --> 00:29:38,756 Speaker 2: Of course we're disadvantage. Can we get there? Yes, but 487 00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:42,876 Speaker 2: you've got to have ambitious people building the technology. You've 488 00:29:42,876 --> 00:29:45,596 Speaker 2: got to have funding support deploying it, you've got to 489 00:29:45,596 --> 00:29:48,556 Speaker 2: have customers adopting it. And so you know, we've I 490 00:29:48,676 --> 00:29:51,036 Speaker 2: believe we can get there, but it takes time and money. 491 00:29:51,556 --> 00:29:55,996 Speaker 1: You've got your palm oil substitute, You've got some money. 492 00:29:57,076 --> 00:29:59,236 Speaker 1: What are a couple of the key things you have 493 00:29:59,276 --> 00:30:01,956 Speaker 1: figured out since then to get from where you were 494 00:30:01,996 --> 00:30:02,836 Speaker 1: then to where you are now. 495 00:30:02,956 --> 00:30:09,316 Speaker 2: Yeah. So at that point, again, the technology was basically working, 496 00:30:09,916 --> 00:30:14,436 Speaker 2: and so a couple of key things were getting enough 497 00:30:14,596 --> 00:30:19,156 Speaker 2: data to be able to build a cost model that 498 00:30:19,316 --> 00:30:23,716 Speaker 2: was believable. So in the early days you don't really 499 00:30:23,836 --> 00:30:27,636 Speaker 2: have credible data. You can guess and you can directionally 500 00:30:27,676 --> 00:30:32,276 Speaker 2: say I think in theory it's possible, it's possible. 501 00:30:32,316 --> 00:30:35,476 Speaker 1: Sure, I mean it's very hard to build a credible 502 00:30:35,516 --> 00:30:39,476 Speaker 1: model based on using your friend's home brew kit exactly. 503 00:30:40,036 --> 00:30:42,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so in the early days it was all 504 00:30:42,876 --> 00:30:48,196 Speaker 2: based on theoretical possibility. So one of the important pieces 505 00:30:48,596 --> 00:30:56,476 Speaker 2: was getting enough data repeatedly and showing improvements that indicated 506 00:30:57,116 --> 00:31:01,236 Speaker 2: we're actually on track. To hit those theoretical limits. So 507 00:31:01,316 --> 00:31:04,156 Speaker 2: a really important step. And by the way, this is 508 00:31:04,276 --> 00:31:08,316 Speaker 2: ever evolving. We update our model basically daily with new 509 00:31:08,916 --> 00:31:14,116 Speaker 2: up dates. But getting something that indicated we could hit 510 00:31:14,676 --> 00:31:19,636 Speaker 2: you know, single digits dollars per kilogram, and. 511 00:31:19,556 --> 00:31:21,956 Speaker 1: So you need to prove that. I mean, obviously it 512 00:31:21,996 --> 00:31:23,636 Speaker 1: needs to be true or your company is not going 513 00:31:23,716 --> 00:31:26,676 Speaker 1: to work, but you need to prove it. What to 514 00:31:26,716 --> 00:31:28,556 Speaker 1: get funding, you need to prove it to get advanced 515 00:31:28,556 --> 00:31:30,276 Speaker 1: commitments from from buyers. 516 00:31:30,796 --> 00:31:33,756 Speaker 2: Both of those both we also needed to prove it 517 00:31:34,076 --> 00:31:34,876 Speaker 2: to ourselves. 518 00:31:35,236 --> 00:31:37,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, seriously, why are we doing this? 519 00:31:37,836 --> 00:31:41,676 Speaker 2: Seriously? You know, like we started this, it was possible, 520 00:31:41,916 --> 00:31:44,716 Speaker 2: but we didn't really know. And so I think it 521 00:31:44,796 --> 00:31:46,916 Speaker 2: was important for us to say and again we know 522 00:31:46,996 --> 00:31:49,356 Speaker 2: that this field is hard, and so we had to 523 00:31:49,396 --> 00:31:53,716 Speaker 2: really be able to say we believe credibly that we 524 00:31:53,756 --> 00:31:56,156 Speaker 2: can get this to a cost structure that will work. 525 00:31:56,196 --> 00:31:59,996 Speaker 2: And that was just a really important milestone for us 526 00:32:00,036 --> 00:32:03,956 Speaker 2: to hit. So the data to support a cost that 527 00:32:04,076 --> 00:32:07,516 Speaker 2: could be competitive was really important, and that came on 528 00:32:07,556 --> 00:32:13,596 Speaker 2: the back of years of experiments and improvements to the bioprocess. 529 00:32:14,956 --> 00:32:18,036 Speaker 1: What cost are you at now? What cost per kilogram? 530 00:32:18,156 --> 00:32:21,756 Speaker 2: So at scale, we're below ten dollars at kilogram, okay, 531 00:32:21,796 --> 00:32:24,316 Speaker 2: which is really close to where we need to be. 532 00:32:25,436 --> 00:32:28,476 Speaker 2: We've still got ability to improve that and we will. 533 00:32:28,756 --> 00:32:32,116 Speaker 2: But we're pretty happy with where we are today for 534 00:32:32,516 --> 00:32:36,036 Speaker 2: being pretty early into the commercial life cycle of the company. 535 00:32:36,196 --> 00:32:38,596 Speaker 1: I mean, is that price? Does that price mean there 536 00:32:38,596 --> 00:32:41,236 Speaker 1: are companies that will buy from you at that price 537 00:32:41,436 --> 00:32:44,276 Speaker 1: and sell at something of a premium sort of analogous 538 00:32:44,316 --> 00:32:46,716 Speaker 1: to like organic food or something some people are willing 539 00:32:46,756 --> 00:32:48,476 Speaker 1: to pay more? Is it like that? Is that where 540 00:32:48,476 --> 00:32:49,036 Speaker 1: you are now? 541 00:32:49,156 --> 00:32:51,436 Speaker 2: Yeah? So that's where the technology is. 542 00:32:52,076 --> 00:32:52,556 Speaker 1: Yeah. 543 00:32:52,596 --> 00:32:56,796 Speaker 2: In terms of commercial, we launched commercially for the first 544 00:32:56,876 --> 00:32:58,676 Speaker 2: time a little over a year ago. 545 00:32:58,996 --> 00:33:01,436 Speaker 1: That's your own, your own product. 546 00:33:01,636 --> 00:33:04,836 Speaker 2: We did launch with our own product. The business model 547 00:33:05,036 --> 00:33:07,876 Speaker 2: is B to B ingredients, but we did launch with 548 00:33:07,916 --> 00:33:12,476 Speaker 2: our own products. So am I allowed to curse on here? 549 00:33:12,556 --> 00:33:13,436 Speaker 2: Or should I? Yes? 550 00:33:13,596 --> 00:33:14,196 Speaker 1: Yes, you are. 551 00:33:14,996 --> 00:33:21,036 Speaker 2: So. We launched the Palmless platform for sustainable ingredients last March. 552 00:33:21,676 --> 00:33:25,156 Speaker 2: It was introducing our platform really to the world for 553 00:33:25,196 --> 00:33:28,876 Speaker 2: the first time, and with it, we launched a direct 554 00:33:28,916 --> 00:33:33,476 Speaker 2: to consumer product which was a nourishing oil and we 555 00:33:33,596 --> 00:33:35,876 Speaker 2: called it Save the Fucking Rainforest. 556 00:33:36,516 --> 00:33:40,596 Speaker 1: Under Palmless nourishing its skin. It's skincare right, to be clear, 557 00:33:40,636 --> 00:33:42,836 Speaker 1: it's not nourishing in the sense in hair. 558 00:33:42,676 --> 00:33:45,316 Speaker 2: Body, So you can use it in any of those, 559 00:33:45,396 --> 00:33:49,036 Speaker 2: but just don't eat it. And so we launched that 560 00:33:49,636 --> 00:33:52,956 Speaker 2: the product sold out in two hours. We had over 561 00:33:52,996 --> 00:33:57,676 Speaker 2: a billion media impressions with zero dollars marketing spend, and 562 00:33:58,036 --> 00:34:02,036 Speaker 2: most excitingly, we had inbounds from about one hundred and 563 00:34:02,076 --> 00:34:05,996 Speaker 2: forty seven manufacturers of consumer goods. 564 00:34:06,076 --> 00:34:09,356 Speaker 1: Are customers right, and that I mean that product is 565 00:34:09,396 --> 00:34:11,996 Speaker 1: basically marketing right, Like you're not selling that to make 566 00:34:12,076 --> 00:34:15,036 Speaker 1: money or it's not. It's like marketing swag that people 567 00:34:15,116 --> 00:34:15,516 Speaker 1: pay for it. 568 00:34:15,676 --> 00:34:18,116 Speaker 2: It goes back, it goes back to the idea of 569 00:34:18,276 --> 00:34:19,076 Speaker 2: making it real. 570 00:34:19,676 --> 00:34:20,276 Speaker 1: Yeah right. 571 00:34:20,396 --> 00:34:23,116 Speaker 2: I can go and try to sell to these companies 572 00:34:23,556 --> 00:34:27,316 Speaker 2: and we can spend you know a long time in conversation, 573 00:34:28,036 --> 00:34:30,716 Speaker 2: but by making it real by putting a product out 574 00:34:30,756 --> 00:34:34,396 Speaker 2: there by the way, like you know, getting every meach 575 00:34:34,436 --> 00:34:39,316 Speaker 2: major media publication wanting to write about it. So since 576 00:34:39,396 --> 00:34:42,996 Speaker 2: then we've started selling the product to customers. So we 577 00:34:43,036 --> 00:34:47,756 Speaker 2: have closed multiple purchase orders. We've sold you know, metric 578 00:34:47,876 --> 00:34:52,516 Speaker 2: tons of our oil too. Manufacturers. We've started in beauty 579 00:34:52,556 --> 00:34:56,076 Speaker 2: and personal care, and so one of those companies launched 580 00:34:56,156 --> 00:35:00,356 Speaker 2: a soap bar. Last year, we've had companies launch We've 581 00:35:00,356 --> 00:35:02,756 Speaker 2: got one that's launching a sun care product soon, so 582 00:35:02,796 --> 00:35:07,476 Speaker 2: we've had a dozen or so customers place purchase orders. 583 00:35:07,196 --> 00:35:09,996 Speaker 2: The third thing that's happened really in the past year 584 00:35:10,396 --> 00:35:16,356 Speaker 2: is the EU has passed landmark legislation, the EU Deforestation Regulation, 585 00:35:16,916 --> 00:35:20,836 Speaker 2: where they are monitoring seven crops, including palm oil and 586 00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:25,836 Speaker 2: swabean oil. And for companies that importing use these crops, 587 00:35:26,276 --> 00:35:29,596 Speaker 2: they have to have a totally new way of validating 588 00:35:30,036 --> 00:35:32,836 Speaker 2: that they did not come from deforestation, and if they 589 00:35:32,876 --> 00:35:35,236 Speaker 2: are unable to do that, they can be fined up 590 00:35:35,276 --> 00:35:38,356 Speaker 2: to five percent of their annual revenue, which is a 591 00:35:38,436 --> 00:35:39,756 Speaker 2: material stick. 592 00:35:39,916 --> 00:35:43,356 Speaker 1: Sure sure, and so it's going to basically drive up 593 00:35:43,356 --> 00:35:46,476 Speaker 1: the cost of palm oil to companies selling in your own. 594 00:35:46,556 --> 00:35:48,956 Speaker 2: It will also dry up supply because most of the 595 00:35:48,956 --> 00:35:52,716 Speaker 2: palm oil today you just can't prove if it came 596 00:35:52,756 --> 00:35:53,516 Speaker 2: from deforestation. 597 00:35:53,916 --> 00:35:57,196 Speaker 1: So that regulation is what you were waiting for as 598 00:35:57,196 --> 00:35:58,556 Speaker 1: a company, is what you're telling me. 599 00:35:58,796 --> 00:36:01,996 Speaker 2: I couldn't have told you that. We thought this would 600 00:36:02,036 --> 00:36:07,276 Speaker 2: have happened, but it's a great tailwind, so I would say, 601 00:36:07,316 --> 00:36:11,396 Speaker 2: we're in conversations with men of the largest food manufacturers, 602 00:36:12,356 --> 00:36:16,196 Speaker 2: and we are very close to converting to a multi 603 00:36:16,276 --> 00:36:19,716 Speaker 2: year agreement with a large consumer goods manufacturer in Europe 604 00:36:19,796 --> 00:36:20,196 Speaker 2: as well. 605 00:36:20,796 --> 00:36:22,596 Speaker 1: Why might you fail? 606 00:36:26,436 --> 00:36:30,476 Speaker 2: We're taking on I mean nothing about this is easy. 607 00:36:33,156 --> 00:36:35,836 Speaker 2: Going from an idea to a technology that works in 608 00:36:35,916 --> 00:36:45,836 Speaker 2: scales that's using biology, nonetheless, is not easy. Tackling a large, 609 00:36:45,836 --> 00:36:52,436 Speaker 2: mostly commodity market with lots of momentum is not easy. 610 00:36:53,276 --> 00:36:57,876 Speaker 2: And getting large multinationals to change their buying behavior is 611 00:36:57,916 --> 00:37:02,316 Speaker 2: not easy. And in order to win, we have to 612 00:37:02,396 --> 00:37:04,556 Speaker 2: get really big, really. 613 00:37:04,356 --> 00:37:08,996 Speaker 1: Fast, because if you don't get really big, the oil 614 00:37:09,116 --> 00:37:10,436 Speaker 1: won't be cheap enough, as. 615 00:37:10,316 --> 00:37:12,596 Speaker 2: Simple as that, That's right, It won't be cheap enough. 616 00:37:12,796 --> 00:37:17,076 Speaker 2: And we can't solve the needs of these large companies. 617 00:37:17,436 --> 00:37:20,036 Speaker 2: Ah right, the company I was just talking about. You know, 618 00:37:20,196 --> 00:37:24,316 Speaker 2: these companies may buy hundreds of thousands to millions of 619 00:37:24,396 --> 00:37:26,836 Speaker 2: metric tons of palm oil per year. 620 00:37:27,156 --> 00:37:28,916 Speaker 1: And how much can you make Now. 621 00:37:28,716 --> 00:37:32,196 Speaker 2: We're on track to make hundreds of metric tons this year, 622 00:37:32,236 --> 00:37:34,036 Speaker 2: which is great, by the way. 623 00:37:33,956 --> 00:37:36,156 Speaker 1: Like right, but you need to go up a thousand 624 00:37:36,396 --> 00:37:38,556 Speaker 1: x now basically, but. 625 00:37:38,556 --> 00:37:42,556 Speaker 2: We need to go bigger faster, and like, that's the 626 00:37:42,676 --> 00:37:44,956 Speaker 2: number one thing that keeps me up at night is 627 00:37:45,396 --> 00:37:49,316 Speaker 2: we have we have brought this thing to market so 628 00:37:49,556 --> 00:37:52,316 Speaker 2: fast and faster than most people thought was possible for 629 00:37:52,436 --> 00:37:56,316 Speaker 2: a biotech. But we're not just competing with biotechs, right, Like, 630 00:37:56,356 --> 00:38:01,316 Speaker 2: we're competing in this big world, and from a company perspective, 631 00:38:01,636 --> 00:38:04,916 Speaker 2: also from a climate perspective, we have to go bigger, faster, 632 00:38:05,516 --> 00:38:09,436 Speaker 2: and so you know, if we fail, it's because we 633 00:38:09,516 --> 00:38:13,996 Speaker 2: can't get big enough, fast enough. And I don't you know, 634 00:38:14,356 --> 00:38:19,916 Speaker 2: perhaps there's a technical reason for that. That seems unlikely. 635 00:38:19,996 --> 00:38:24,076 Speaker 2: The technology works, so it's probably something else. 636 00:38:24,236 --> 00:38:27,076 Speaker 1: So it's execution risk. It's execution risk, I think. 637 00:38:27,116 --> 00:38:30,356 Speaker 2: So you know, it's we're making real widgets. We're making 638 00:38:30,436 --> 00:38:31,596 Speaker 2: real physical. 639 00:38:31,156 --> 00:38:34,196 Speaker 1: Things, physical things that soon people will be eating, right, 640 00:38:34,276 --> 00:38:37,676 Speaker 1: which is non trivial. What does your company look like 641 00:38:37,716 --> 00:38:40,116 Speaker 1: in I don't know. I often say like five years 642 00:38:40,116 --> 00:38:41,876 Speaker 1: at this point, but I feel like for your company, 643 00:38:41,916 --> 00:38:45,436 Speaker 1: I want to say a year or eighteen months or something, right, like, 644 00:38:45,476 --> 00:38:46,956 Speaker 1: if things go well, where are you're going to be 645 00:38:46,996 --> 00:38:47,916 Speaker 1: in a year or two? 646 00:38:48,036 --> 00:38:50,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we're at a really exciting point. We 647 00:38:51,636 --> 00:38:54,476 Speaker 2: just crossed the bridge a year ago we were just 648 00:38:54,516 --> 00:38:58,516 Speaker 2: an R and D company. Now we're commercial. It's a 649 00:38:58,556 --> 00:39:01,836 Speaker 2: really exciting point in the company's life. And again, you know, 650 00:39:01,916 --> 00:39:04,436 Speaker 2: we've made some small sales. We know people want the thing, 651 00:39:04,916 --> 00:39:08,716 Speaker 2: but now it's like gas. We need to put the 652 00:39:08,716 --> 00:39:12,076 Speaker 2: gas on right, go time, go time. And so in 653 00:39:12,116 --> 00:39:17,756 Speaker 2: a year or two we want to be making money, 654 00:39:17,916 --> 00:39:20,116 Speaker 2: you know, like I want that. And the thing is 655 00:39:20,116 --> 00:39:21,836 Speaker 2: is that our we didn't really talk about this, but 656 00:39:21,836 --> 00:39:24,276 Speaker 2: our go to market has started, you know, instead of 657 00:39:24,316 --> 00:39:28,956 Speaker 2: tackling the really big, really cheap market first, which is 658 00:39:29,116 --> 00:39:31,596 Speaker 2: by the way, what biofuels companies did and what a 659 00:39:31,596 --> 00:39:35,396 Speaker 2: lot of companies have done by chasing food first, we've 660 00:39:35,436 --> 00:39:39,236 Speaker 2: taken more of the sort of Tesla approach. Start in 661 00:39:39,276 --> 00:39:42,396 Speaker 2: a market where you can make a better performing product 662 00:39:42,436 --> 00:39:45,596 Speaker 2: and people are willing to pay premiums, and then take 663 00:39:45,636 --> 00:39:47,236 Speaker 2: all the money that you make and funnel it back 664 00:39:47,236 --> 00:39:50,476 Speaker 2: into the business, drive scale, drive down cost, and then 665 00:39:50,556 --> 00:39:51,876 Speaker 2: take on the big market. 666 00:39:52,516 --> 00:39:56,996 Speaker 1: And your Tesla roadster is like sixty dollars skin oil. 667 00:39:57,356 --> 00:40:00,916 Speaker 2: Yes, basically, so it's in the beauty and personal care industry. 668 00:40:00,956 --> 00:40:05,876 Speaker 2: And our customers will sell products anywhere. Sometimes they're they're 669 00:40:06,116 --> 00:40:08,356 Speaker 2: you know, thirty dollars, but sometimes they're two hundred and 670 00:40:08,356 --> 00:40:11,196 Speaker 2: thirty dollars. Yeah, but in that market, there's a willingness 671 00:40:11,196 --> 00:40:15,516 Speaker 2: to pay, there's fast adoption, and they care about both 672 00:40:15,516 --> 00:40:19,516 Speaker 2: innovation and sustainability, which is what we care about, and 673 00:40:19,596 --> 00:40:23,436 Speaker 2: so we're really driving forward there. But we do have 674 00:40:23,476 --> 00:40:26,276 Speaker 2: ambitions to move into food I would say within about 675 00:40:26,316 --> 00:40:28,916 Speaker 2: two years as well. And so we're chasing a lot 676 00:40:28,916 --> 00:40:32,676 Speaker 2: of things in the next two years, which is go 677 00:40:32,796 --> 00:40:36,716 Speaker 2: become the hottest ingredient in beauty and personal care, make, 678 00:40:36,956 --> 00:40:41,116 Speaker 2: you know, get revenue material in support of that, and 679 00:40:43,036 --> 00:40:46,036 Speaker 2: get the business to a position where we can start 680 00:40:46,076 --> 00:40:50,196 Speaker 2: to really scale it from a profitability perspective and move 681 00:40:50,196 --> 00:40:55,236 Speaker 2: into more markets geographically, larger scale and new markets like food. 682 00:40:58,036 --> 00:41:00,236 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 683 00:41:10,036 --> 00:41:13,196 Speaker 1: Now it's time for the lightning round. What's your favorite 684 00:41:13,196 --> 00:41:14,556 Speaker 1: product that contains palm oil? 685 00:41:15,396 --> 00:41:17,836 Speaker 2: I love chocolate and all almost all the chocolate, and 686 00:41:17,876 --> 00:41:20,236 Speaker 2: I like the I love like gas station chocolate. 687 00:41:20,436 --> 00:41:23,676 Speaker 1: Uh huh, cheap, crappy, garbage chocolate. 688 00:41:24,156 --> 00:41:27,556 Speaker 2: I know, sorry, mom, but they they've almost all got 689 00:41:27,596 --> 00:41:29,076 Speaker 2: palm oil. Unfortunately. 690 00:41:31,396 --> 00:41:33,276 Speaker 1: What do you wish more people knew about yeast? 691 00:41:35,676 --> 00:41:40,236 Speaker 2: I think yeast, and like microbes and micro organisms, they 692 00:41:40,236 --> 00:41:45,676 Speaker 2: have a negative connotation, but like they're really amazing, They're 693 00:41:45,716 --> 00:41:49,716 Speaker 2: really this workhorse, they're natural, and so I just wish 694 00:41:49,796 --> 00:41:52,796 Speaker 2: that they had a positive connotation instead of a negative connotation. 695 00:41:53,756 --> 00:41:57,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, if one didn't think infection, it would help. Yeah, yeah, 696 00:41:57,396 --> 00:41:58,076 Speaker 1: that's what I think. 697 00:41:58,396 --> 00:41:59,996 Speaker 2: It's better than bacteria. 698 00:42:00,596 --> 00:42:04,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, fair. But yeah, before you went to grad school, 699 00:42:04,476 --> 00:42:07,076 Speaker 1: you worked at Goldman Sachs. What is one thing that 700 00:42:07,116 --> 00:42:09,756 Speaker 1: you learned at Goldman that's been useful to you running 701 00:42:09,756 --> 00:42:10,196 Speaker 1: a company. 702 00:42:10,316 --> 00:42:13,996 Speaker 2: I really learned how to work at Goldman as a 703 00:42:14,036 --> 00:42:17,836 Speaker 2: twenty two year old who knew like nothing. I think 704 00:42:17,876 --> 00:42:20,516 Speaker 2: it was a really incredible training ground, and I think 705 00:42:20,556 --> 00:42:24,036 Speaker 2: it just felt a great foundation for how to work, 706 00:42:24,076 --> 00:42:28,156 Speaker 2: how to communicate, And I'm very grateful for my time there. 707 00:42:29,276 --> 00:42:32,036 Speaker 1: What's the most underrated LCD sound system song? 708 00:42:33,476 --> 00:42:36,236 Speaker 2: Someone great? 709 00:42:36,596 --> 00:42:38,436 Speaker 1: What's one thing I should not do if I go 710 00:42:38,476 --> 00:42:41,116 Speaker 1: to Austin, Texas? 711 00:42:41,756 --> 00:42:45,796 Speaker 2: Uh? Hot, take don't eat tex Mex because it's better 712 00:42:45,836 --> 00:42:46,916 Speaker 2: in San Antonio. 713 00:42:47,716 --> 00:42:52,196 Speaker 1: Okay, San Antonio is your hometown. Yeah, Okay, Well, if 714 00:42:52,196 --> 00:42:55,476 Speaker 1: I'm in San Antonio, where should I eat tex Mex tech? 715 00:42:55,516 --> 00:42:56,956 Speaker 2: Amalina? 716 00:42:58,156 --> 00:43:01,476 Speaker 1: What was one surprising thing about meeting Prince William and 717 00:43:01,516 --> 00:43:02,156 Speaker 1: Kate Middleton. 718 00:43:07,156 --> 00:43:13,036 Speaker 2: Gosh, so many. I mean I was not intimidated at first. 719 00:43:13,236 --> 00:43:16,916 Speaker 2: You know, their staff was really training us on how 720 00:43:16,956 --> 00:43:20,396 Speaker 2: to approach them. I did not think I was intimidated. 721 00:43:20,436 --> 00:43:22,996 Speaker 2: I you know, when I met them, and as soon 722 00:43:23,036 --> 00:43:25,676 Speaker 2: as they walked in the room, it's like my heart 723 00:43:25,756 --> 00:43:28,996 Speaker 2: hit the ceiling. It was just they have this royal presence, 724 00:43:29,076 --> 00:43:33,116 Speaker 2: and they have this really strong presence. They're also both 725 00:43:33,236 --> 00:43:36,676 Speaker 2: lovely and they knew they knew so much about palm oil, 726 00:43:36,756 --> 00:43:40,796 Speaker 2: so they were really well well prepped and informed and 727 00:43:41,436 --> 00:43:42,036 Speaker 2: it was lovely. 728 00:43:42,276 --> 00:43:46,156 Speaker 1: Yeah. So you were inspired by this class you took 729 00:43:46,196 --> 00:43:48,916 Speaker 1: at MIT called Revolutionary Ventures, And I'm curious, what is 730 00:43:49,036 --> 00:43:51,836 Speaker 1: one thing that you learned in that class that has 731 00:43:51,996 --> 00:43:52,596 Speaker 1: stayed with you. 732 00:43:56,996 --> 00:44:04,876 Speaker 2: Technology is necessary, but not sufficient. Revolutionary ventures always require 733 00:44:05,116 --> 00:44:09,316 Speaker 2: a breakthrough in technology, but that's just a fraction what 734 00:44:09,356 --> 00:44:13,716 Speaker 2: it takes to actually get things successful. There's the adoption piece, 735 00:44:13,876 --> 00:44:17,356 Speaker 2: there's the funding piece, there's the scaling piece. So technology 736 00:44:17,476 --> 00:44:19,156 Speaker 2: is critical, but insufficient. 737 00:44:22,556 --> 00:44:27,476 Speaker 1: Sheratku is the co founder and CEO of C sixteen Biosciences. 738 00:44:28,516 --> 00:44:32,316 Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang, edited by 739 00:44:32,356 --> 00:44:37,076 Speaker 1: Lydia Jean Kott and engineered by Sarah Bruguer. Please email 740 00:44:37,196 --> 00:44:41,276 Speaker 1: us at problem at pushkin dot fm. Tell us how 741 00:44:41,276 --> 00:44:43,596 Speaker 1: we can make the show better, who we should interview. 742 00:44:44,036 --> 00:44:46,076 Speaker 1: We're going to take a couple weeks off, but we'll 743 00:44:46,116 --> 00:44:49,956 Speaker 1: be back before too long. I'm Jacob Goldstein. Thanks for listening.