WEBVTT - How Attachment Theory Works 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff you should know a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.280 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:16.080 and there in the past or the future, I can't tell. 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:19.400 It's Chuck and Jerry's here hanging out on the ether. 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:22.880 And that makes this stuff you should know hanging out 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:27.560 in the ether. She's ethereal she's actually on ether too, 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.000 to really complete the whole circle. Oh boy, I wish 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:35.240 I was so um Chuck, surely you've heard of attachment 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:40.000 theory before. It's so fully ingrained into pop culture that 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:42.400 I would be really surprised if there are many of 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:45.000 our listeners out there who aren't at least passingly familiar 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:48.600 with it. Yeah. I had heard of it, and it's um. 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.280 You know. I think this is a very instructive episode 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:56.520 for brand new parents because even if you think you 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.760 kind of know something about it, I learned a lot. Uh, 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:02.560 it's you light now because you know, my daughter's seven 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.319 and a half, so we already screwed up, right. But 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.360 if you're just starting out with the baby, like, start early, 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:13.560 because whatever you do makes a big impact on their 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.840 adult life. Even Yeah, I think that's one of the 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:21.360 things that makes this so interesting, is like you've got 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.960 a really narrow window to not screw up your kid, 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.920 and it's it's you. It's on you, like you, the 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.959 primary caregiver, are responsible for your kids or not, so, 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:34.480 says attachment theory. A lot of people question that. A 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:37.880 lot of people say humans are way too complex, there's 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:42.000 way too many genetic and environmental and social forces working 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:46.040 on the individual to shape them. Or but there there 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:48.400 does seem to be like a lot of validity to 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.760 attachment theory, even if it isn't like the thing that 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:54.920 forms our personality. Yeah, and I think it's one of 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:59.000 those cool things that like, uh and you know, we're 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:00.520 going to talk about the history of it, but it 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:04.600 seems like kind of almost right away when we started 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.880 figuring out that there was attachment, there were some people, 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.200 even though it's gotten way more popular over the years, 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:13.560 to sort of look into this stuff, some people kind 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.720 of really early on, we're like, all right, well, why 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.639 like let's try and figure this thing out. Yeah, because attachment, um, 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.840 we should define it. It's basically a bond, an affinity 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:28.760 for that an infant has for their caregiver in vice 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:33.120 versa typically um and it is seems to be universal 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:38.680 that bond, that attachment between baby and caregiver around the world. 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:40.919 It just seems to be a human thing. Uh. It 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:44.400 also seems to show up in the animal kingdom, especially 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.240 among other mammals and primates. Um, it is a thing. 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:50.680 And like you said, people are like, but why, And 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.480 they started asking why after Darwin came along. So the 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.360 framework that everybody was looking at this through was evolution 0:02:57.440 --> 0:03:01.400 natural selection. And the first kind of dominant explanation for 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.320 the whole thing, which we'll get into a little more later, 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.880 was behaviorism. And the upshot of behaviorism as it was 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.960 as it applies to um, that bond that forms between 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.000 baby and caregiver, Um is that the baby wants to 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:18.880 be fed, and the caregiver feeds the baby. Ergo, the 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.560 baby feels good about the caregiver. Yeah, and who cares 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.959 about your emotions? Yeah, we can't study those anyways. Was 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.680 kind of the prevailing theory. Yeah, that's exactly right. But 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:35.840 then along comes a guy and a lady and another 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:42.640 guy riding in on their ponies. It was strangely enough. 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.080 Uh No, it was a guy named John Bowlby. Uh. 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:48.840 There was a woman named Mary Ainsworth, and then there 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.880 was another guy. Uh, named William Blatts will show up 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.520 later and like we'll talk about them a little more 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.240 in a second. But Bowlby basically was among a small 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:03.120 handful of people who said that whole behaviorist um explanation 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:06.960 doesn't hold up because you can feed a baby and 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:09.880 the baby will still be crying, the baby will still 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:14.360 want the caregiver um, and sometimes a caregiver can sue 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.320 the baby without any food. So I don't think it's 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:21.680 just food that thereafter. I think it's something more, um, intangible, 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:25.480 but just as important as food. Yeah, like if your 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.440 baby scared, it's yeah, it's not all just about that. 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.360 You know that milk that you're getting, and you know 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:34.520 that stuff is important. Like we talked about in the 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:38.279 breastfeeding episode. Uh, you know, we covered you know, those 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.520 kinds of bonds and attachments that can happen from mother 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.640 to baby, but we also talked about the fact that 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:50.080 that's not you know, the end all be all, necessarily right. No, Yeah, 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.320 definitely milk is important. Food is important, but they're not 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.880 breastfeeding bond. Sure, oh the bond, sure, I get to yeah, 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.960 but the so, yeah, that bond in and of its 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.280 self is what Bowlby and attachment theory says, is the 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.960 important part of the bond. It's the bond. It bond. 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:10.560 The bond isn't like some um you know, byproduct of 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.799 that need for food and satisfying of the need for food. 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.320 It is the thing that the kid wants and that 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.360 the caregiver gives to the kid a bond, a connection, 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.000 a social connection with another human being that that cares 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:28.320 for that little little baby. Um. And that's it almost 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:30.800 sounds like on the surface like well, wait, what's the 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.120 big difference. The differences is the purpose of the bond 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:36.960 is emotional, and behaviorism says the purpose of the bond 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.760 is strictly to manipulate the person to get food. Right, 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.840 So there is an enormous amount of difference. And they 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.880 came up at around the same time, and it turned 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:52.640 out that attachment theory basically completely supplanted behaviorism, as we'll see. Yeah, 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.920 I think what's interesting is that, uh, at least in 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.200 our case, Like right when my daughter was born, she 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:02.440 comes out, they're like get in there in that other 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:06.360 room and take your shirt off, like mom and dad, 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.240 and like start putting that skin on skin. They call 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.520 it skin on skin. Yeah, and that skin on skin contact, 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:14.600 they say, is just you know, do it as much 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:18.400 as you can, as often as you can, uh, from 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:22.520 from the get go, which I guess is part of 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:27.000 attachment theory, even though that's a physical bond. I don't know, 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:29.640 I really don't know. It didn't come up, so I 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:32.359 it's got to have something to do with it. But 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.360 I didn't see anything like where that skin on skin 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.560 contact is an important part of attachment. Yeah, I'm kind 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:40.880 of curious. I'm meant to look into that. But it's 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:43.279 one thing that that's it's a big deal now, you know, 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:45.080 whereas in the old days they were like, you know, 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.200 dad's down the street, you know, in a bar, and 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:53.960 eventually you'll meet your child. Yeah, exactly. And that also 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.960 explains I realized now why you started wearing wide mesh 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:01.560 crop top shirts all the time. Just that skin on 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.680 skin context. Skin to win is our motto. So the 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:09.359 upshot of attachment theories, that's everybody that you're a primary 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:13.680 caregiver and if you make yourself available, if you're responsive 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:18.440 to an infant's needs to be soothed when they're scared, 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:22.040 to be fed when they're hungry, to be hut like cuddled, 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.160 that give them that skin on skin contact. Then the 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:29.080 infant learns that they can depend on that, and that 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.000 gives them a sense of security that in a few 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.720 years they can use to go explore the rest of 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.840 the world knowing they have a safe home base. That's 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:43.280 attachment theory, and that's not If you don't do that exactly, 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.760 then it has all sorts of other effects that make 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:50.239 the kid not secure from that that time on. Yeah, 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.000 and you know, a lot of this may seem like 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.680 uh no dub type of stuff now because we're way 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.440 more um just sort of in tune with that kind 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.480 of thing now, in a little more touchy feeling now, 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.280 So it seems very obvious I think these days. But 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:06.400 as you'll see, and a lot of this has to 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:10.120 do with how you react, um like when the child 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.000 may be upset. It wasn't always that way. I mean, 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:15.320 we'll you know, we'll touch on it later, but there 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.400 up until semi recently, there were times where it was like, no, 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.520 if your child is upset, you know, uh, try and 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:24.760 get them to not be upset in any way you can. 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.480 Maybe that's a punishment, maybe you ignore it. And that 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.720 was sort of the way, and it's just it's crazy 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.160 to think about such an obvious thing as like, no, 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:38.120 you should provide comfort to an upset kid first and 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.320 foremost and kind of work out from there. Uh, you know, 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.960 because I'm not saying there's no like behavioral things you 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.080 need to address, but uh, it's just really interesting that 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:51.280 it took that long to arrive what to me. What 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:55.080 to me is like a really kind of obvious thing. Yeah. 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:59.240 I wonder though, if this is where we finally progress too, 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.000 or if behaviorism was a diversion from stuff we've been 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:09.560 doing before, which probably for a strong resemblance to attachment theory, 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:11.840 you know, yeah, like Tuktok may have been a better 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.760 parent than dad in the nineteen forties. Yeah, and Bob 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:20.360 Dobbs or something. Yeah, exactly. So, um, let's talk about 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.880 the people who who literally changed the world because you 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:27.520 really put your finger on something, something sticky and smelly 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.680 when you said that, Um, it just seems like no, duh, now, 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:37.560 like that is how thoroughly it has completely permeated Western society. Um. 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:40.240 And and you can point to John Bowlby and Mary 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:44.040 Ainsworth is two people who changed the world by by 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:48.120 getting attachment theory across and showing like this actually has 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.640 real legs. Yeah. So Bowlby was a brit Uh. He 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:55.440 was a psychiatrist and he was raised he you know, 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.280 it's pretty clear that he probably had um some kind 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:00.680 of money growing up because he was ra is by 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:05.480 a host of nanny's uh in England. And uh, it 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:07.800 seems like when he got older he was very much 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:13.240 into exploring what that meant to him, because he I 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:17.040 guess had a memory or at least maybe uncovered some 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:21.440 trauma from when he had his main nanny uh split 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.560 for another job when he was really young. And when 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.320 you're a little kid, like if if that's your scene 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.720 growing up, that main nanny, that's like your caregiver. And 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:32.920 so it would I would guess be a kin to 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.559 like mom leaving or something like that. Uh. And this 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:40.760 was in like the what like nineteen thirties. So he 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:44.360 started exploring that, which was a very I think, kind 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.840 of forward introspective kind of thing to be thinking about 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.240 back then. Uh, it doesn't seem like the kind of 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.520 thing that was innate back then, but he started thinking 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.200 about his own life and that really informed his his 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.600 research or his interest in researching it. Yeah, and it 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.679 makes you wonder if that nanny hadn't left and inspired 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.240 him to kind of look into the damage that it did. 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:07.960 I mean, would we even have attachment theory. It's a 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:11.480 it's a big question. May have just had a tougher 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:16.120 time because they really it seems worked great in tandem together, right, 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:21.880 So um bowlby Uh, he started investigating juvenile delinquents. Um. 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:25.640 That was where he started to kind of look for like, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:27.760 if you want to prove a point, go find the 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.840 extremes and then investigate that, and it's the easiest way 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.760 to uncover the mechanations of things. So we started looking 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.600 at juvenile delinquents and basically was like, it's the kids 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.280 home life that that makes them a delinquent. It's nothing else, 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.520 Like you can take poverty away, you can take um, 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.679 you know, rule out all these other factors, and if 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.920 the home life is stable and supportive, the kids probably 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.240 not going to be a juvenile delinquent. If it's not, 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.800 there's a chance the kid will be a juvenile delinquent. 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.360 So out of the gate, he's already contributing to siety 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.920 through his research and his theories. Yeah, and I thought 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.040 it was interesting and that he wasn't necessarily just saying like, 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:10.640 good parent, bad parent. He worked at the London Child 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:14.160 Guidance Clinic and he was looking and in fact wrote 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.200 a letter to the British Medical Journal talking about just 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:21.640 family separations because of jobs, uh and chiefly world War two. 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.199 World War two comes along right when he's sort of 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.480 getting into this, and families all of a sudden are 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.280 split up, and he hit on a key thing, which 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:34.360 is like, hey, that's that's no good to have a 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:36.600 parent taken away from a child at an early age. 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:38.760 And I don't think he was saying, like, you know, 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.640 we shouldn't send soldiers to war because uh, their kids 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:44.640 are going to be delinquents later, but he was saying 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.400 this might happen as a result of that. Yeah, and 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.880 even more than just you know, father's going off to war, 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.079 like like children were removed from their parents to get 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.719 them to safer places out in the countryside. Um, if 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.959 you've ever seen The Lady in Black two, the horror 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:05.280 movie that's kind of the premise of it, have yeah 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:07.560 a few times. All these little kids are like removed 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:10.160 from London where it's very dangerous, but their parents need 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.360 to stay behind and contribute to the to the war 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.200 if art working in the factories and yeah, so yeah, 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.080 of course it's going to have that effect. So he's 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.080 telling everybody this like, this might not be the best idea, 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.400 even though the intentions are great. Sorry. And then he 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.640 moves into the juvenile delinquents. He he had a paper 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:31.160 called forty four Juvenile Thieves Their Character and Home Life, 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.320 And that's when he was like, it's the home life 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.560 that's that's the problem. Yeah. He took kind of a 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.640 big swing here because he went all, you know, all 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.160 the way out on a limb to say like, hey, 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.800 your kid maybe like a criminal later in life. Uh. 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:49.600 And they may be using you know, like stealing material things, 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.720 maybe a literal substitute or I guess in a little 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:57.720 substitute there, I go, a figurative substitute for the fact 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.959 that they didn't get the love they needed as a kid. Uh. 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.600 And I think, you know, he I don't think he 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.199 talked about in this paper. But of course later that 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:11.000 could be drug addiction or any sort of bad road 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:14.400 you go down. Yeah, And so he followed that up. 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.280 The World Health Organization, right when the u N starts 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.400 to be form, basically hired him in nineteen fifty to 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:26.040 work on the mental health of homeless children. It is amazing. 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:27.920 This guy was a pretty amazing dude, just based on 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.760 his research right doing this back then, you know, right right, 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.480 especially when the dominant view was no, these are all 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.680 little robots, this stuff doesn't matter at all, and he's saying, no, 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.080 this actually matters a lot. And he came out with 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.280 a book called Childcare and the Growth of Love. It 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.480 was basically bait. I know, it's a great title, but 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.480 it was based on the work and the research that 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.200 he did for the World Health Organization. But he he 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.200 very wisely, I get the impression, wrote it for a 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.560 popular audience and that helped the whole theory gain traction, 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.480 and the theory he was these juvenile delinquents I've been 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.960 investigating um that had a bad home life. Well I 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:07.760 went and figured out where the whole thing starts, and 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:11.680 it starts really early on in infancy, and that it's 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:15.400 all about nurturing the child that leads to proper development, 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.480 and that if you don't nurture the child properly, they're 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.840 going to be psychologically damaged humans for the rest of 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.680 their lives. So let's start figuring out how to nurture 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:26.960 them properly. Yeah, and I think you kind of hit 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.960 on it. The key here was it wasn't a scientific paper. 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.480 This was like, hey, people in the public sphere, let's 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.560 read this book. Yeah. I think that's a good time 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:38.960 for a break. I feel like we could just keep 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.320 going and just say forget the ads. Sure, let's make 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.760 it a Christmas special, but maybe we should take a 0:15:45.760 --> 0:16:12.880 break and then introduce Mary Ainsworth in earnest after that. Huh, agreed? Okay, Chuck, 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.440 So we're back in It's high time that Mary Ainsworth 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:21.160 wrote in on her Palomino and that's a great great 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.440 reference there. Um, we should say Ed helped us out 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.280 with this one. And he made a little aside somewhere 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:29.640 in this article. I can't remember quite where, but he 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.200 wanted to point out that he started looking into Mary 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.800 Ainsworth and expected to find that she was just kind 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.800 of like the woman working behind the scenes who never 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.920 really got credit until long after her death. And he 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.520 said he was very pleasantly surprised to find that Nope, 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.760 she was viewed as a collaborator of Bowlby's, that they 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:49.840 came up with this together, and she was very much 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.920 lauded within her lifetime like she was she was seen 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.120 and respected for her work at it, like during the 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.240 fifties basically, So that's a big deal. I think it's 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:02.520 worth mentioning off the bat, absolutely because I feel like 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.040 we've come up with so many of these stories through 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:09.040 the years in research terms, where like the man stamps 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.240 his name on it and it's like thanks, thanks for 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.560 the help Mary, exactly, Now go give me some coffee. 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:18.200 Yeah exactly. No, that isn't what happened. So Mary Ainsworth 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.320 moves to London. I don't know she did it to 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.119 specifically work with Bowlby or not, but she ended up 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.000 working with him pretty quickly, and she brought with her 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:29.080 a theory that had been worked out by someone else 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.280 she'd worked with. I think he was a bit of 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.960 a mentor to her. His name was William E. Blatts, 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.359 and Blats came up with something called security theory, which 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.320 basically says that if if a kid has security early 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:43.720 in life that they can trust in their their caregiver, 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:48.119 then they have a foundation for exploration later on in life. 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:50.760 And as Ed puts it, it seems like it was 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.560 a bit of a beta version of attachment theory. It's 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.200 kind of like attachment theory without the explanation of why 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.520 or how. Yeah, And it turns out that Mary Ainsworth 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.480 was really good at UM helping to find out the 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.120 why because she knew, like, hey, we can sit around 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.239 and have high tea and theorize all day over here 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.760 in England. And she said, it's very nice. I enjoy 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.040 the high tea. It's one of the reasons I moved. 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:19.639 Those cucumber sandwiches are dealish, Yeah, finky thinky sandwiches are lovely, 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.480 But like, we need to do, like we need to 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.440 try and prove this stuff and do experimentation. And one 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.560 of the experiments, uh, they ended up working together at 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:35.320 Johns Hopkins University, and she developed a very famous experiment called, 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:44.800 uh Strange, the Strange Situation Capitalist capitals, And it sounds 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.800 kind of mean, but it's not as mean as it 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:51.040 got and you'll find out, you know, later on that uh, 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:53.199 this other character comes in that was kind of a 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.679 human monster with his experiments. But the strange situation was 0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:00.119 basically a situation where you had a a kid and 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:05.080 their caregiver in a room for twenty one minutes, and 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.440 over those twenty one minutes, there would be a series 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:12.160 of comings and goings of the caregiver and a stranger 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:14.840 so like, and there was some overlap here and there, 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.439 so that the caregiver would be there and then a 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.280 stranger would enter. And then every time one of them 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:24.199 would leave, that was labeled as a conspicuous exit. Whatever 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.520 that means, I am leaving, I guess so. But and 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:30.879 it wasn't like the stranger would come in and just 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.280 sit there with crossed arms like they It says that 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:38.399 the stranger would be like geared towards the child's activities 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:42.040 or whatever. So I would like to see it in action, 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.800 to see what they actually did. But um, it was 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.480 just a series of comings and goings with the goal 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:50.800 to basically kind of see what, you know, how the 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:54.560 child reacts in what to their mind might look feel 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:59.800 like a crisis, and how strongly they respond to everybody, 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.359 to the caregiver leaving, to the stranger coming in, to 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.639 perhaps bonding some with the stranger or not, then the 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.400 stranger leaving, and then if you're mad when the caregiver 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:11.520 comes back because they left, or if you were just 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.240 super relieved. So there's like all kinds of things you 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:19.480 can unpack with the capitals, capitals, strange situation, right, But 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.640 what she found is that there's really just a few 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.680 buckets that you can put these responses in, which is 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:29.680 really something that means you're onto something when you're like, wow, 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.760 this is crazy. These kids are acting or responding within 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:36.000 one of three or four ways. And um even more 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.120 important or just as important, I should say, she also 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:44.840 did some field work in Uganda, UM studying like infant 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:49.280 caregiver bonding, and um found that like, these kids respond 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:53.280 in the same way as American kids do, UM in 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:56.879 these same four buckets. So she was definitely onto something 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:00.560 for sure. Yeah, and that kind of work game super 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:04.040 important as far as uh, you know, because it wasn't 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:08.080 just like let's just uh explored that what's happening with 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.520 these American babies, like if they wanted to find out 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.520 if it was a cross cultural and then eventually drilling 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.639 down even more to like socio economic and stuff like that. 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:21.160 So all just super valuable stuff for sure. So UM, 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:24.040 it's like you said, Bowlby came up with the theories, 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:27.480 and Ainsworth figured out how to how to explain why 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:31.320 those theories did a pretty good job of explaining bonding 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:35.399 and attachment right. Um, So just to kind of like 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.359 get a little further into behaviorism and what they were 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:41.600 up against by by coming up with this completely radical 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.200 new idea of what makes a good human being. Um, 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:47.480 they were up against behaviorism. And one of the most 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:52.399 famous behaviorists was BF Skinner, And what B. F. Skinner 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.760 was working on was operant conditioning, which is you take 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:58.200 a behavior and you pair it with a consequence. It 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:00.200 can be a reward, it can be a punished meant. 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.080 But depending on whether you want to encourage that behavior 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:07.120 or discourage that behavior, you punish it or you reward it. Right, 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:11.560 And that means that that behavior then is learned. That's 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:15.080 the basis of behavioralism. That it's that these behaviors are 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.919 learned traits. Uh. And that's not at all what Bulby 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:23.600 and Ainsworth were finding. They came to realize or believe that, um, 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:26.840 that bonding and attachment was an innate trait, not a 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:32.080 learned trait. Right. So, like if you have affection towards someone, 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.639 it's not there because you need it, but it is 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:40.920 just a stimulus basically to further the caregiving. That's the 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:44.840 behaviorist viewpoint. Yeah, and you know, Skinner in a skinner Box, 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:46.560 which I feel like we've talked to that about that 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.920 a bunch of times for sure. But the so like 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:53.520 these guys were saying like they they turned this behavioristum 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:59.200 explanation for bonding um into like child rearing practices and 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:02.280 like wrote book and basically said like, if your baby 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:04.440 is crying and you pick that baby up and soThe that, 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:07.960 you have just reinforced crying behavior and they're going to 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:10.520 cry for the rest of their life. So you should 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:16.120 probably never approach a crying baby, just ignore them. Basically, Yeah, 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:19.800 they almost treated it as if you were like, uh, 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:23.240 that that was equivalent to a child having a tantrum later, 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:26.439 you know, and this is just it's not the same thing. 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:29.359 There is a behavior's named John B. Watson. I think 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:32.240 we've spoken about him before to his name is very familiar, 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:35.320 but he wrote a parenting book and um a couple 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:39.240 of excerpts from it are as follows. He said that 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:42.520 you should never hug or kiss your kid or let 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:45.720 them sit on your lap. Get this, you should shake 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:48.840 hands with them in the morning. Well I agree with 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:52.920 that parton if they if they've done an extraordinary good 0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:56.920 job at some difficult task, then maybe you can give 0:23:56.960 --> 0:23:59.359 them a pat on the head and then if you 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:03.480 must must, then you can kiss them once on the 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:06.480 forehead when they say good night. This was like the 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:09.720 the the interaction that they said, if you do this 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:11.920 with your kid, you're gonna produce a good kid, not 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:18.000 a um a social deviant monster who And frankly, this 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:21.320 fully explains the boomer generation because this is about the 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:23.600 time that these kids are being born and raised. Yeah, 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:27.560 when was his uh when was Watson around the fifties? 0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:30.680 This is Yeah, I'd be curious to find out what 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:34.160 his h if he had children, how that went. They're 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:38.240 still like trembling. I'm guessing they just want that pat 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:40.879 on the head when they meet somebody. But I mean 0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:43.440 imagine that people were like, yeah, that's a great idea. 0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:45.200 I can shake hands with my kid in the morning, 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:47.480 and they're gonna turn out to be aces. They're going 0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:50.480 to be the toast when they get older. Yeah. No 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:55.919 good uh yeah nice nice ref that almost slipped by me. Um. 0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:59.600 Should we talk about the three sort of buckets, which 0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:02.840 basically clear the three attachment styles? I think we should 0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:06.920 all right, Well, the first one is uh, well that 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:10.160 it turned out that there were four, but um, thankfully, 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:13.040 the fourth is is a very small percentage of infants 0:25:13.720 --> 0:25:17.040 are exposed to this kind of attachment. But the first 0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:21.200 is secure and that means you know, you're you're doing 0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:25.280 great as apparent. That means you're nurturing and you respond. 0:25:25.400 --> 0:25:26.920 And again a lot of this is what to do 0:25:26.960 --> 0:25:30.280 when your kid is upset. You're responding with um support 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:34.280 and by calming them and by nurturing them rather than 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:38.760 you know, doing the Watson method. And again, in turn, 0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:40.320 I know it sounds like we're beating a dead horse, 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:43.640 but that will make the child feel secure. They're gonna 0:25:43.640 --> 0:25:46.720 feel supported. Uh, They're gonna feel like they're able to 0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:51.680 express negative emotions. And I think that is a semi 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:55.320 modern thing. Is is like negative feelings are okay, Like 0:25:55.840 --> 0:25:59.040 you're not supposed to get your child to quit crying. 0:25:59.119 --> 0:26:01.760 You're supposed to say, cry it out, feel those feelings 0:26:02.240 --> 0:26:05.440 and let's like talk about them, um, and then shake 0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:11.560 hands afterwards, shake hands. They well done. Here's a cucumber sandwich. Uh. 0:26:11.680 --> 0:26:14.480 And this is called and organized and they're sort of 0:26:14.680 --> 0:26:18.960 uh further um described as organized or disorganized. This one 0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:25.200 is organized. And I think what which is a pretty 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:28.119 good number of infants apparently are are brought up and 0:26:28.240 --> 0:26:31.320 nurtured in this way, right. And also to circle it back, 0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:34.240 Mary Ainsworth is the one who's like, Okay, there's a 0:26:34.280 --> 0:26:38.880 lot of kids kids who respond in this way, right. 0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:43.399 And what she's finding is that in that strange situation test, 0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:47.879 the secure children will be distressed when their parents leaves 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:50.920 and then will be relieved when the parent comes back. 0:26:51.240 --> 0:26:53.680 They will go to the parent for comfort, and then 0:26:53.720 --> 0:26:56.360 the parent finds it very easy to calm the child down, 0:26:56.640 --> 0:26:58.760 comfort them, and then the child goes back to playing 0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:01.200 with the toys like nothing ever happened. It all just 0:27:01.320 --> 0:27:04.360 rolled off their back. That that is the that forms 0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:07.520 that secure attachment, right. Um. And like you said, it's 0:27:07.600 --> 0:27:10.080 organized because the kid knows that they can go to 0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:12.120 the parent, the parents canna reassure them, and then it's 0:27:12.160 --> 0:27:14.160 going to be all good. Yeah, there's like a structure 0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:18.840 there that even an infant can understand. It's so basic exactly. Um. 0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:21.600 The next one that she found, I think covers about 0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:27.879 of infants. It's avoidant and this one is where the 0:27:28.000 --> 0:27:31.120 caregiver just doesn't really give the kid what they need. 0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:34.800 And we're talking infants here, right, doesn't like the the 0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:37.520 the infant is in distress, and the caregiver might just 0:27:37.720 --> 0:27:40.000 like ignore them, They might get annoyed with them. They 0:27:40.080 --> 0:27:43.320 might kind of mock the kids distress and like little babelo, 0:27:43.520 --> 0:27:46.000 what's will that will baby? Or you upset kind of thing, 0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:49.440 which I mean, I can't imagine how many times I've 0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:51.400 heard that in my life, like in movies, are on TV, 0:27:51.520 --> 0:27:53.280 and probably even in real life. And when you step 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:55.920 back and realize that you're mocking an infant and you're 0:27:56.000 --> 0:27:58.560 screwing them up as you do it, well, here's how 0:27:58.600 --> 0:28:02.040 you screw them up right, and um, in the actual 0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:07.440 strange situation, Um, the kid is totally normal that you 0:28:07.760 --> 0:28:10.879 can't really distinguish them from the secure kids until the 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:14.200 caregiver leaves and the secure kids member they became distressed. 0:28:14.600 --> 0:28:18.360 The avoidant kids they're actually like, I'm I'm all good, 0:28:18.400 --> 0:28:21.320 I'm just gonna keep playing with these Lincoln logs, right, 0:28:22.200 --> 0:28:24.679 although I think it's a little old for infants, but regardless, 0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:28.680 And then when the caregiver comes back, they either ignore 0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:31.280 the caregiver or may actually like go away from the 0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:35.080 caregiver because what they've learned is that their emotions upset 0:28:35.160 --> 0:28:37.840 the caregiver. So they have to manage their own emotions 0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:39.880 and they have to hide them. And that is what 0:28:40.040 --> 0:28:43.040 the you learn as an infant if you have an 0:28:43.080 --> 0:28:47.440 avoidant attachment. Yeah, like this, this behavior drives my caregiver 0:28:47.520 --> 0:28:50.280 away from me, so I have to go into my 0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:53.640 room to be upset or something. It's sort of just 0:28:53.720 --> 0:28:56.480 occurring to me reading all this. That how much the 0:28:56.600 --> 0:29:01.440 story of Popeye the Sailor Man, because to play Popeye 0:29:01.640 --> 0:29:05.080 when he was an infinct then Peppy wasn't around. Uh, 0:29:05.680 --> 0:29:08.160 there was a lot of like they had a lot 0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:12.400 of unpacking to do. He and Pappy, I don't remember that. 0:29:13.200 --> 0:29:16.520 I just remember him beating people up. Yeah. Pappy was 0:29:16.760 --> 0:29:20.160 Popeye's dad, and he didn't get the love he needed 0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:24.400 when he was an infink. Uh. And so that's probably 0:29:24.440 --> 0:29:28.880 why he was violent huh later in life. Yeah, I 0:29:28.920 --> 0:29:32.080 mean that makes sense. Although if he had been disorganized, 0:29:32.160 --> 0:29:35.520 it would have made more sense that he was violent. Uh, 0:29:35.640 --> 0:29:39.720 it was Popeye organized, I guess, I don't know. I 0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:43.000 mean I would say he's probably disorganized, had a disorganized 0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:46.480 attachment because that's the one that's associated with violence. Yeah. 0:29:46.960 --> 0:29:50.760 I think Pappy was cold. So if Pappy was cold, 0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:55.719 he probably would have developed avoidance, right yeah, if Pappy 0:29:56.000 --> 0:30:02.000 was um uh inconsistent, Where Pappy was sometimes like oh 0:30:02.080 --> 0:30:05.800 it's okay, you know, and reassured little infant Popeye and 0:30:05.880 --> 0:30:09.880 then other times ignored infant Popeye. Infant Popeye would learn 0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:15.360 that there was no real way to depend on Pappy 0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:18.000 and no real way to predict when Pappy was going 0:30:18.080 --> 0:30:22.160 to respond to Popeye's needs. Right yeah. This inconsistency, this 0:30:22.240 --> 0:30:26.000 is called the resistant bucket. It almost seems that it 0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:30.440 does as much damage as uh as the other one. 0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:37.160 It's like, yeah, yeah, I mean there, I mean this 0:30:37.320 --> 0:30:40.360 is something I've learned as apparent that like structure, like 0:30:40.520 --> 0:30:43.680 kids really really count on that, even though they don't 0:30:43.760 --> 0:30:46.360 know that they count on that because they don't understand 0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:50.800 it at that point. But like disrupting uh schedule and 0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:55.240 disrupting a structure UH is very um like it shouldn't 0:30:55.240 --> 0:30:58.120 be taken lightly, as apparent, even small things. And Emily 0:30:58.160 --> 0:31:00.760 and I find ourselves all the time still just being like, 0:31:00.880 --> 0:31:03.479 oh god, you know, we didn't really think about like um, 0:31:03.800 --> 0:31:07.480 coming back from them by vacation or or just launching 0:31:07.520 --> 0:31:10.680 back into school like we're parents. We can or adults, 0:31:10.760 --> 0:31:13.440 we can kind of zig and zag with life, but 0:31:13.600 --> 0:31:15.280 you can't always count on a kid to be able 0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:17.920 to do that. Uh. And I think that's sort of 0:31:18.560 --> 0:31:21.640 um in a way, that that sort of inconsistency playing out, 0:31:22.040 --> 0:31:25.320 you know as a kid gets older. Right, Yeah, no, totally. 0:31:25.840 --> 0:31:29.800 And like in this strange situation UM experiment, these kids 0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:33.480 were distressed even before the parent left, They were distressed 0:31:33.480 --> 0:31:35.680 while the parent was gone, and then when the parent 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:39.040 came back, they might be angry to the parent, they 0:31:39.120 --> 0:31:43.120 might be um clingy to the parent. And I saw 0:31:43.200 --> 0:31:47.960 this explained as these kids develop a preoccupation with their attachment. 0:31:48.400 --> 0:31:51.120 They're they're not sure when their their caretakers going to 0:31:51.200 --> 0:31:53.520 respond to him, so they can't focus on anything else 0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:56.360 but whether or not their caretaker is going to respond 0:31:56.400 --> 0:31:59.360 to them. And they by being clingy there like trying 0:31:59.400 --> 0:32:03.120 to force the caregiver to respond. They may cry louder 0:32:03.200 --> 0:32:06.040 than other kids because they're trying to force the caregiver 0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:10.160 to respond. And that's the ambivalent or resistant attachment style. 0:32:10.240 --> 0:32:12.360 And yeah, it is. It is a sad way to 0:32:12.400 --> 0:32:15.680 screw up a kid. It seems like, Yeah, the final one, 0:32:15.880 --> 0:32:18.760 which is the smallest bucket is the only one that's 0:32:18.840 --> 0:32:22.840 labeled is disorganized. Even though resistant is pretty chaotic, it's 0:32:22.840 --> 0:32:26.160 still organized, like you said, but this is And a 0:32:26.240 --> 0:32:29.000 lot of times they point out that the caregiver in 0:32:29.080 --> 0:32:33.560 the disorganized case is UM may have a trauma that 0:32:33.680 --> 0:32:35.880 they suffered. This is sort of like that cycle that 0:32:36.000 --> 0:32:39.000 repeats itself. Or they may have like some mental health 0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:43.680 issue or something and are not UM maybe not able 0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:46.200 to like concentrate on the needs of the kids so 0:32:47.080 --> 0:32:50.360 or at least consistently. So it's also inconsistent, just like 0:32:50.520 --> 0:32:56.600 resistant is. But this feels like inconsistent plus right right, 0:32:56.760 --> 0:32:59.760 It's it's like, um, you may intimidate the kid to 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:02.280 up crying. You may yell at the kid to stop crying. 0:33:02.560 --> 0:33:05.440 I get the impression with an ambivalent resistant kid, the 0:33:05.520 --> 0:33:08.320 caretakers not yelling at you, are trying to intimidate you. 0:33:08.400 --> 0:33:10.960 They're just not responding. In some cases this is like 0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:15.400 really mean stuff. Or they might be inconsistent in that 0:33:15.920 --> 0:33:19.400 there they choose to soothe, but they're doing it without 0:33:19.480 --> 0:33:22.200 any real emotion. They're like, oh, it's okay, you're gonna 0:33:22.240 --> 0:33:24.600 be fine. It's the right kind of thing. And so 0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:30.240 that kids not getting any right, and they're not getting support. 0:33:30.320 --> 0:33:35.080 But not only that, their caregiver, the one person who's 0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:37.480 supposed to be the source of stability in the entire 0:33:37.680 --> 0:33:41.000 universe for that kid, is a source of fear. And 0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:46.440 so in the strange situation experiment, kids who had disorganized attachment, 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:50.360 they might go to the stranger just as as frequently 0:33:50.440 --> 0:33:52.320 as they might go to their parents. When they came back, 0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:55.000 they might run from their parents. They might freeze and 0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:57.680 not know which person to go to. They might be 0:33:57.800 --> 0:34:00.720 confused because their caregiver is a source of fear and 0:34:00.760 --> 0:34:03.320 they but they still have that need, they just don't 0:34:03.360 --> 0:34:06.520 know where to get it. It's extremely sad um and 0:34:06.640 --> 0:34:09.080 it is the kind that seems to really lead to 0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:15.359 serious problems UM early in life and then on into adulthood. 0:34:15.880 --> 0:34:18.040 You ever do that thing, uh, you know, you me 0:34:18.120 --> 0:34:19.680 ever do that thing where you put Momo in the 0:34:19.760 --> 0:34:22.160 middle of you and you stand for apart and you 0:34:22.239 --> 0:34:25.000 both start calling her. Yeah, I don't think either one 0:34:25.080 --> 0:34:27.239 of us could bear to know that we weren't the one. 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:30.280 But I know pretty well that she would go to human. 0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:32.120 She wouldn't be happy about it, but she would go 0:34:32.200 --> 0:34:35.799 to UM. That's sad Um, I don't know why people 0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:38.400 would do that, but I've seen that done on the internet. 0:34:38.600 --> 0:34:42.440 Probably is a joke, Like, surely no one would do 0:34:42.600 --> 0:34:45.880 that and put any like stock in it. Speaking of 0:34:45.960 --> 0:34:50.000 a joke, you showed me this. There was this meme recently. Um, 0:34:50.239 --> 0:34:52.560 although this comes out in a couple of weeks, so 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:55.279 this meme will probably be ancient by then. But there's 0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:59.520 a trend I think on TikTok where kids, um fake 0:34:59.719 --> 0:35:03.440 re being the news that their parents favorite celebrity has died, 0:35:03.880 --> 0:35:10.480 and then they they tape it and like, oh man, 0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:12.680 I can understand being upset about it because it's just 0:35:12.800 --> 0:35:16.359 like really emotionally abusive. But at the same time, if 0:35:16.400 --> 0:35:18.320 you watch like a highlight reel of some of the 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:22.080 some of the more pronounced responses, it's it's tough not 0:35:22.239 --> 0:35:24.360 to crack up. I haven't seen any of them. I 0:35:24.440 --> 0:35:26.560 just solved that some celebrities are like pretty ticked off 0:35:26.560 --> 0:35:29.440 about it. Why would the celebrities be ticked off? I 0:35:29.480 --> 0:35:32.560 don't know our celebrities ever ticked off. I don't know 0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:36.440 celebrities who needs them. Remember that point at the very 0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:40.880 beginning of the pandemic where we almost got rid of celebrities. 0:35:41.960 --> 0:35:45.879 Do you remember when everybody was so sick of celebrities? 0:35:45.920 --> 0:35:49.280 There was that whole gal Goodo screwed up about singing. 0:35:49.320 --> 0:35:52.719 Imagine Madonna in the bath with Rose Pedal talking about 0:35:52.719 --> 0:35:56.239 how everybody's equal and everybody was just kind of sick 0:35:56.320 --> 0:35:58.320 and tired of celebrities right then, and it seemed like 0:35:58.400 --> 0:36:02.200 we were gonna shed our our fascination with them. It 0:36:02.360 --> 0:36:05.600 just didn't pan out. Good luck. Yeah, right, all right, 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:09.319 we should probably take our second break, uh, and then 0:36:09.360 --> 0:36:12.320 we'll talk about you know, we mentioned testing these theories, 0:36:12.800 --> 0:36:15.359 and there's more to it than just the capital est 0:36:15.400 --> 0:36:18.640 capitalist strange situation. So we'll be back right after this 0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:42.600 to talk about testing. All right. When it comes to 0:36:42.719 --> 0:36:47.680 testing these kind of a lot of psychological testing, but 0:36:47.840 --> 0:36:51.719 especially this, it's pretty tough because in order to get 0:36:51.800 --> 0:36:54.000 like a robust test, we've talked about it over and over, 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:57.520 you need to be able to repeat stuff. You need 0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:00.680 to be able to have large sample sizes. Uh, and 0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:04.160 it's really tough in this case because, uh, it's hard 0:37:04.200 --> 0:37:06.360 to get you know, when you're studying humans like this, 0:37:06.920 --> 0:37:10.600 and especially this kind of thing where you study infinite attachment, 0:37:10.640 --> 0:37:11.920 and then you want to know what they're like later 0:37:12.000 --> 0:37:14.839 in life. This is really long drawn out studies over 0:37:15.000 --> 0:37:19.000 years and years, even decades, and it's hard to get 0:37:19.080 --> 0:37:21.719 like a large sample size. So right out of the gate, 0:37:22.280 --> 0:37:26.080 your longevity is hampered, your sample size is hampered. And 0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:29.719 then the other big knock is it's really impossible to 0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:34.560 not uh think about the variables that might come up 0:37:34.640 --> 0:37:38.839 that would also influence uh the outcomes, which in this case, 0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:42.759 it's like it's almost an infinite list of variables that 0:37:42.840 --> 0:37:47.160 could affect uh, these kinds of studies. Yeah, like are 0:37:47.239 --> 0:37:50.960 you going to screen the study participants for um, you know, 0:37:51.560 --> 0:37:54.600 genetic traits that you are going to try to control 0:37:54.680 --> 0:37:58.120 for or whether there's lead paint in their home. Um. 0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:00.880 There's just so much stuff, And it also is based 0:38:00.920 --> 0:38:04.480 on how complex humans are, how many influences we have. 0:38:05.280 --> 0:38:09.120 But the upshot of it is is that attachment theory 0:38:09.200 --> 0:38:13.919 has been the dominant explanation for UM, how little baby 0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:17.399 personalities are formed, uh and how we kind of view 0:38:17.520 --> 0:38:22.080 the world from that point on UM for sixty years now. 0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:25.160 And one of the reasons why is because it holds up. 0:38:25.320 --> 0:38:28.040 There's a lot of criticisms of it. It's not perfect, 0:38:28.360 --> 0:38:33.560 it's not complete, but the gist of it generally holds up. Yeah. 0:38:33.800 --> 0:38:36.239 And you know, we mentioned mary An's worth doing work 0:38:36.280 --> 0:38:39.440 in Uganda and UH studying like kind of cross cultural 0:38:40.080 --> 0:38:43.120 UH lengths and ties, and they did find that it 0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:46.319 is basically cross cultural UH and as we'll see even 0:38:46.440 --> 0:38:50.920 within like different animal species as well. But UH, children 0:38:50.960 --> 0:38:56.400 basically of all cultures do exhibit these attachment theory behaviors. 0:38:57.080 --> 0:38:59.040 But there were some differences, and I think what the 0:38:59.080 --> 0:39:03.279 main ones they found, doubt was that their proportions of 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:07.240 the attachment styles were different depending on the culture, although 0:39:07.680 --> 0:39:10.080 they also said that I think they found out later 0:39:10.200 --> 0:39:15.879 that UM, socio economic differences even outweighed cultural differences, right. Yeah, 0:39:15.880 --> 0:39:19.160 and I also saw that UM, typically peers are thought 0:39:19.239 --> 0:39:22.640 to influence the development of a person's personality way more 0:39:22.680 --> 0:39:26.120 than any other factors. UM. But that's not to say 0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:29.359 that your attachment doesn't have influences on on the rest 0:39:29.440 --> 0:39:32.319 of your life, right. UM. The thing that they found, though, 0:39:32.520 --> 0:39:34.920 one of the things that makes the strange situation tests 0:39:35.120 --> 0:39:39.480 difficult is that, yes, the responses among infants are universal 0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:41.600 and fit into those four buckets, but the way that 0:39:41.800 --> 0:39:46.360 that caregivers soothe infants is is culturally constructed. It's not 0:39:46.440 --> 0:39:49.880 the same around cultures. So if you're conducting this test 0:39:49.960 --> 0:39:53.040 in the Czech Republic, you have to figure out how 0:39:53.160 --> 0:39:55.880 the people in the Czech Republic soothe their kids and 0:39:55.960 --> 0:39:59.640 then quantify the results based on those different ways of 0:39:59.680 --> 0:40:03.640 sooth their kids or not. Yeah, Czech Republic. Huh sure. 0:40:04.000 --> 0:40:07.560 That first thing that came to mind it was I'd 0:40:07.600 --> 0:40:10.640 like to go to Prague. I try to go to 0:40:10.719 --> 0:40:15.080 Prague in my backpacking adventure years ago. But our europass, 0:40:16.040 --> 0:40:20.400 our your rail pass did not cover Prague. Weird at 0:40:20.440 --> 0:40:23.399 the time. I think it probably does now, but this was, uh, 0:40:23.560 --> 0:40:25.520 you know, this is in the mid early to mid nineties, 0:40:26.640 --> 0:40:29.400 so anyway, I didn't go to Prague. Okay, should we 0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:34.040 talk about the monster. Yeah, a guy named Harry Harlow. 0:40:34.120 --> 0:40:38.400 We've talked about him before, sure, I know we have. 0:40:38.840 --> 0:40:40.880 We definitely have it think in a video in a 0:40:41.040 --> 0:40:46.320 video explainer. But his bastards of science rookie card is 0:40:46.360 --> 0:40:51.280 worth a lot of money and he is a total bastard. 0:40:51.480 --> 0:40:53.160 If there's a hell, this guy's in it, there's just 0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:56.839 no way, shape or form around it. Because his experiments 0:40:56.880 --> 0:40:59.440 seemed to have gone well beyond the realm of science 0:40:59.480 --> 0:41:02.600 and into just torture. Yeah. So what he did was 0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:06.080 worked with monkeys. Uh. And one of the main things 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:08.040 he did as far as attachment theory go, is he 0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:12.040 got to this one experiment he would get to artificial 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:16.560 surrogate monkey mommy's there was one that was covered in cloth, 0:41:16.680 --> 0:41:18.200 and there was one that was just made of like 0:41:18.320 --> 0:41:21.720 chicken wire, and they were both warned by a light bulb. 0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:24.759 But again, one is cloth, one is chicken wire. And 0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:28.720 he would uh, well, he found out that infant monkeys 0:41:28.760 --> 0:41:33.239 would bond with the cloth mother, no surprise. But if 0:41:33.480 --> 0:41:38.560 you started having the wire only mother provide milk, infants 0:41:38.600 --> 0:41:42.240 would go to feed with the wire uh monkey mama, 0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:46.719 and then cuddle with the cloth monkey mama. Uh. And 0:41:46.840 --> 0:41:48.200 you you know, you hear that, and you think, like, 0:41:48.320 --> 0:41:50.080 all right, that that doesn't sound like the worst thing 0:41:50.120 --> 0:41:53.040 in the world. But what he started doing it just 0:41:53.160 --> 0:41:56.320 it seems like he got increasingly more disturbing. Uh. He 0:41:56.360 --> 0:42:00.880 would raise infant monkeys in isolation, uh some times parcels, 0:42:00.920 --> 0:42:07.120 sometimes complete isolation. Uh. This would you know, basically cause 0:42:07.200 --> 0:42:10.680 mental illness in these monkeys as they grew older. He 0:42:10.920 --> 0:42:14.920 would uh some of these monkeys were so messed up 0:42:14.960 --> 0:42:17.359 that they couldn't do things like mate later in life, 0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:22.400 and he wanted to to test like intergenerationality of these effects. 0:42:22.760 --> 0:42:25.879 So what would the messed up monkeys little monkey kids 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:28.719 be like? But these monkeys were so messed up the 0:42:28.760 --> 0:42:34.120 females they couldn't mate. So he invented a contraption which basically, uh, 0:42:34.640 --> 0:42:39.120 required that the female monkey mate. And I guess that's 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:41.440 as deep as we need to go. Yeah. Um. He 0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:43.440 also had something that he liked to call the Pit 0:42:43.600 --> 0:42:48.720 of Despair, which was an inverted pyramid. It produced total 0:42:48.840 --> 0:42:52.680 isolation um, and that the monkeys that were inserted into 0:42:52.719 --> 0:42:55.600 the Pit of Despair were introduced to it starting at 0:42:55.640 --> 0:42:58.520 three weeks old. And so like, I mean, we know 0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:02.200 now what solitary confinement can do on an adult human 0:43:02.320 --> 0:43:05.319 after a very short time. Imagine being raised from three 0:43:05.360 --> 0:43:08.440 weeks old in solitary confinement your entire life and it 0:43:08.560 --> 0:43:11.239 just breaks you mentally, it breaks your spirit, it breaks 0:43:11.280 --> 0:43:15.640 everything about you. And again, yes, this guy showed with 0:43:15.800 --> 0:43:20.359 the wire monkey experiment that behaviorism was wrong, that they 0:43:20.440 --> 0:43:23.240 weren't just after food. They needed a bond, They needed 0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:26.080 an affection, and that need is so strong they would 0:43:26.120 --> 0:43:30.359 actually bond with a cloth covered wire monkey. That's where 0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:33.239 his experiment should have stopped, because beyond that, he's not 0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:35.759 really contributing much to it, aside from showing that you 0:43:35.840 --> 0:43:39.120 can really break monkeys by isolating them from a very 0:43:39.200 --> 0:43:42.479 early age. And even one of his students said later 0:43:42.600 --> 0:43:45.000 on that it was clear to many people the work 0:43:45.120 --> 0:43:49.520 was really violating ordinary sensibilities that anybody with respect for life, 0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:52.680 for people would find this offensive, and he was absolutely 0:43:52.800 --> 0:43:56.400 right about that. Absolutely. Um. One of the kind of 0:43:56.440 --> 0:43:59.320 cool things now that we have learned because of attachment 0:43:59.400 --> 0:44:04.600 theory is again like it gave a real blueprint for 0:44:05.239 --> 0:44:08.960 how to parent from day one. And uh, you know, 0:44:09.120 --> 0:44:12.320 behaviorism was the dominant theory before this came along, and 0:44:12.760 --> 0:44:15.400 it was really just a see change and how we 0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:19.959 saw child rearing and you know, thank goodness they came along. 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:23.919 I guess we should talk a little bit about James Robertson, right. Yeah, 0:44:24.080 --> 0:44:27.120 I think it's great because this was in terms he 0:44:27.440 --> 0:44:29.120 you know, it's like this is all great and like 0:44:30.200 --> 0:44:32.480 as far as like how to parent better and stuff 0:44:32.520 --> 0:44:35.960 like that, but this was also a time when you know, 0:44:36.440 --> 0:44:39.400 hospital visitation of course, you know, pre COVID. You know, 0:44:39.480 --> 0:44:42.279 things are all messed up now because people it was 0:44:42.360 --> 0:44:45.600 kind of brought back to this place where you couldn't, 0:44:45.960 --> 0:44:47.440 you know, sort of be with your kid in the 0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:49.880 hospital if they were sick a lot of times because 0:44:49.960 --> 0:44:54.560 visitation rules and rites just weren't the same back then. So, uh, 0:44:54.719 --> 0:44:57.880 James Robertson comes around. He worked with Bulby in the 0:44:57.960 --> 0:45:02.000 fifties and he started noticing like, hey, this is really 0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:05.920 messed up that you'll send a a very young child 0:45:06.040 --> 0:45:08.680 to the hospital and basically tell the parents to wait 0:45:08.719 --> 0:45:11.480 at the door, and it's super stressful. And he wrote 0:45:11.520 --> 0:45:14.560 a book, I'm Sorry. He made a documentary short film 0:45:14.600 --> 0:45:17.160 called A Two year Old Goes to the Hospital and 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:20.440 it showed these traumas that like when these and it's 0:45:20.480 --> 0:45:23.800 already bad enough that these children are being hospitalized, but 0:45:23.960 --> 0:45:26.719 imagine doing that and saying like, sorry, your parents can't 0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:30.040 like come and see you except for very specific times 0:45:30.040 --> 0:45:32.680 of day. Uh. And you know, I guess they're still 0:45:32.719 --> 0:45:35.400 visiting hours in certain circumstances. But it is not like 0:45:35.520 --> 0:45:37.960 that anymore, and largely due to the fact of the 0:45:38.000 --> 0:45:40.759 work of James Robertson. And it's not just hospitals like 0:45:41.000 --> 0:45:44.440 you think about any refugee crisis or like you know, 0:45:45.040 --> 0:45:49.239 separation of of families at the border, which is something 0:45:49.280 --> 0:45:52.080 that has happened in recent years. And you know, this 0:45:52.239 --> 0:45:54.880 is why people got so upset because like we have 0:45:55.440 --> 0:45:58.480 undeniable proof of like the damage that that does, and 0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:02.080 and like what a rama that is for a child 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:04.839 and of course also for the parents. So it wasn't 0:46:04.880 --> 0:46:08.719 just hospital stuff. It's like splitting up families period, right, 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:11.279 I mean, like and it does permanent damage too. It 0:46:11.360 --> 0:46:16.560 seems irrevocable or largely irrevocable. Another way that attachment theory 0:46:16.719 --> 0:46:19.960 has really affected society is that it's the it's the 0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:26.440 dominant rationale that forms the basis for how society approaches 0:46:26.560 --> 0:46:31.000 families that have problems and that their kids involved um 0:46:31.280 --> 0:46:35.200 and attachment theory basically says it's better to leave a 0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:40.759 kid in a troubled home and leave the existing attachments 0:46:40.800 --> 0:46:45.640 intact than to remove the kid. If you can support 0:46:45.719 --> 0:46:48.839 the troubled home and make it into a better home 0:46:49.360 --> 0:46:52.279 so that everyone involved has less problems and therefore the 0:46:52.760 --> 0:46:55.759 relationship between the caregivers and the kid are better. That 0:46:55.920 --> 0:47:00.120 that's attachment theory, and it kind of it points out like, 0:47:00.280 --> 0:47:04.160 just what's at steak like attachment theory. If it's not right, 0:47:04.719 --> 0:47:07.799 then we might be doing something wrong by leaving kids 0:47:07.840 --> 0:47:12.000 in troubled homes, right, um, like like kids lives are 0:47:12.040 --> 0:47:14.759 at stake, And then you can extend it even further 0:47:14.880 --> 0:47:17.440 in that attachment theory is how parents raise kids now, 0:47:17.880 --> 0:47:20.560 so the effects of attachment theory are going to be 0:47:20.680 --> 0:47:24.440 felt for generations and generations and generations. So hopefully it 0:47:24.600 --> 0:47:27.200 is right. It seems like it's right. But if if 0:47:27.320 --> 0:47:29.600 we come to find like, no, actually it's really harmful, 0:47:29.719 --> 0:47:32.680 I'll be pretty surprised. But it would be a really 0:47:32.800 --> 0:47:35.520 big deal because of how pervasive that whole thing is 0:47:35.600 --> 0:47:38.520 and how many different parts of society it touches. Yeah, 0:47:38.600 --> 0:47:40.960 for sure. All right, so I guess we should wind 0:47:41.000 --> 0:47:44.080 it up with just a little bit about adult attachment 0:47:44.160 --> 0:47:46.760 styles because this is you know, we've been talking about children, 0:47:46.800 --> 0:47:49.839 of course, because they are the ones that you would 0:47:49.880 --> 0:47:52.720 most often think of as far as being attached and bonding, 0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:57.319 but uh, this happens into adulthood and uh. One great 0:47:57.400 --> 0:48:03.600 example of several is the classic student mentor relationship, and 0:48:04.040 --> 0:48:06.040 this is sort of the same thing. The whole idea 0:48:06.120 --> 0:48:10.440 behind a student mentor isn't so different than uh, infant 0:48:10.520 --> 0:48:14.520 and parent in that the mentor should allow a student 0:48:14.600 --> 0:48:18.720 like a really safe haven to explore and to discover 0:48:18.800 --> 0:48:22.160 the possibilities and to study and provide that like secure 0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:25.920 home base for them. Right. There's also other studies on 0:48:26.120 --> 0:48:31.120 whether UM attachment might be related to your political orientation. Uh, 0:48:31.320 --> 0:48:35.239 maybe yes or no. Then there's nothing conclusive religion, whether 0:48:35.320 --> 0:48:38.320 you're religious or not. There's a little more evidence for that. 0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:42.680 But the one that really is part of pop culture 0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:46.920 and seems to have some sort of UM validity to 0:48:47.080 --> 0:48:53.600 it is how attachment in infancy translates to attachment in 0:48:53.719 --> 0:48:58.480 adult romantic relationships. That's right, And this is the kind 0:48:58.560 --> 0:49:02.040 of stuff that uh, if you've had trouble and adult 0:49:02.160 --> 0:49:06.960 romantic relationships, hopefully you have therapied this out some because 0:49:07.600 --> 0:49:10.680 nine times out of ten, UM, you can probably dive 0:49:11.040 --> 0:49:13.759 deep enough to find out, Oh, this has a lot 0:49:13.840 --> 0:49:16.560 to do with how I was raised, with how I 0:49:16.719 --> 0:49:19.920 partner up with people Now I hate my mom and dad. 0:49:20.000 --> 0:49:24.120 It turns out that that can be the revelation a 0:49:24.200 --> 0:49:27.280 lot of time. Sadly, so they've they've kind of traced 0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:30.560 like if you're what your attachment style is to what 0:49:30.760 --> 0:49:33.520 you're likely to be like in a relationship. And UM, 0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:36.279 one of them, the resistant ambivalent one, the one where 0:49:36.320 --> 0:49:39.880 you're preoccupied with attachment and you're kind of clingy. That 0:49:40.239 --> 0:49:45.640 translates oftentimes to a person who is emotionally needy and insecure, 0:49:46.000 --> 0:49:49.800 maybe jealous, maybe really threatened by anything that might you know, 0:49:50.120 --> 0:49:53.880 come between them and and the their mate. Um. That 0:49:54.239 --> 0:49:57.520 that is what it translates to in an adult relationship. 0:49:57.840 --> 0:50:00.799 And again people are really really comple x. You might 0:50:00.880 --> 0:50:03.040 check some of those boxes, you might check some other boxes. 0:50:03.280 --> 0:50:06.120 This is like a general umbrella, but there does seem 0:50:06.200 --> 0:50:10.760 to be a pretty solid correlation between these. What about 0:50:11.400 --> 0:50:16.200 um avoidant so avoidant uh? And this is it all 0:50:16.239 --> 0:50:18.080 kind of makes sense to me. Uh, They they're more 0:50:18.160 --> 0:50:22.160 likely to value freedom later in life. And then also 0:50:22.239 --> 0:50:25.200 on the downside, seek out a relationship that might be 0:50:25.280 --> 0:50:28.960 emotionally distant. Uh. Intimacy maybe a problem and they might 0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:32.160 reject those kind of relationships, right because they've learned that 0:50:32.200 --> 0:50:34.320 they can't depend on anybody else, they have to depend 0:50:34.400 --> 0:50:37.200 on themselves, so they don't feel comfortable in intimate relationships. 0:50:37.760 --> 0:50:42.960 And then the uh crime de la creme is secure 0:50:43.000 --> 0:50:45.319 of course, of course, and that means you are way 0:50:45.400 --> 0:50:49.560 more likely to have a really great relationship romantically later 0:50:49.680 --> 0:50:52.399 in life, or maybe a series of them if you're lucky, 0:50:53.400 --> 0:50:57.080 or maybe just one if that's your bag. But the 0:50:57.320 --> 0:51:00.520 point is, players double through that one. The point is 0:51:00.600 --> 0:51:02.840 you're more likely to have really good relationships and you 0:51:02.960 --> 0:51:06.760 and you know, feel safe and secure and provide comfort 0:51:06.840 --> 0:51:09.759 to your romantic partner and depend on that comfort from them, 0:51:10.440 --> 0:51:13.560 and be intimate and be open and all the great 0:51:13.600 --> 0:51:16.320 things that we strive to be. All of your haircuts 0:51:16.360 --> 0:51:19.759 turn out great, you whistle while your work. Everybody just 0:51:19.920 --> 0:51:23.640 loves you. That's the secure relationship. I just got a 0:51:23.680 --> 0:51:27.120 great haircut. What's great? What's great about this though? Is there? 0:51:27.400 --> 0:51:29.920 It's definitely been shown that you can change your attachment 0:51:30.000 --> 0:51:33.840 style as an adult. You can change how you interact 0:51:33.960 --> 0:51:37.840 with your romantic partner as an adult. You're not doomed, 0:51:37.880 --> 0:51:40.800 you're not trapped like this. This stuff can change, but 0:51:41.480 --> 0:51:45.239 it takes self reflection and introspection usually, like you said, 0:51:45.280 --> 0:51:49.359 through the hypotherapy, to to be successful at that. Yep, yes, sir, 0:51:50.160 --> 0:51:53.719 good stuff, good stuff. You got anything else? I got 0:51:53.800 --> 0:51:56.879 nothing else. Chuck's got nothing else, I got nothing else. 0:51:57.400 --> 0:52:01.480 That means it's time for a listener mail. All right, 0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:04.719 I'm gonna call this hot off the presses. This is 0:52:04.760 --> 0:52:07.640 sinning like twenty minutes ago, flying by the seat of 0:52:07.640 --> 0:52:10.839 our pants here uh and this is You're not gonna 0:52:10.880 --> 0:52:12.879 leave this anonymous because I haven't checked back with this person. 0:52:13.560 --> 0:52:17.240 But this is in reference to the Tarot episode. Guys, 0:52:17.600 --> 0:52:21.280 what gives is how it starts? I've loved every episode 0:52:21.320 --> 0:52:24.160 I've listened to, but the terror win was insulting. I 0:52:24.280 --> 0:52:27.600 think you joked that it is was all made up, 0:52:28.320 --> 0:52:32.320 and then in all caps, so is everything. Everything is 0:52:32.400 --> 0:52:37.120 something made up in someone's head. Shakespeare's made up, baseball 0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:41.000 is made up. Norse mythology is made up. The recipe 0:52:41.040 --> 0:52:43.839 for jello salad is made up. The only difference between 0:52:43.840 --> 0:52:46.399 the tero and any other belief is time. Just because 0:52:46.440 --> 0:52:49.239 it isn't ancient doesn't mean that it's less valid. Less 0:52:49.280 --> 0:52:53.759 valid way of looking at the world interesting. I just 0:52:53.920 --> 0:52:57.799 I'm chomping at the bit, chuck uh me. Sitting down 0:52:57.880 --> 0:53:00.720 with my cards now to reflect on an inner turmoil 0:53:00.840 --> 0:53:03.360 is no different than someone getting on their knees to 0:53:03.480 --> 0:53:05.960 pray about a problem. Maybe you should get into that 0:53:06.880 --> 0:53:09.920 and study Christianity in that same attitude, you would have 0:53:09.960 --> 0:53:13.960 a revolt. So this person says, I'm not mad, I'm 0:53:14.000 --> 0:53:18.759 just disappointed. Okay from Anonymous. Huh yeah, I'm a check 0:53:18.800 --> 0:53:20.480 with this person. They may not want this out there, 0:53:20.920 --> 0:53:23.160 that's fine. I'm with you. I find it a little 0:53:23.480 --> 0:53:26.239 flawed as far as their argument codes. Like, people don't 0:53:26.280 --> 0:53:28.879 sit down with a recipe for jello salad and use 0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:31.399 that to try to predict their future, reflect on what's 0:53:31.400 --> 0:53:34.359 going on in their life. The same with baseball. Yeah, 0:53:34.440 --> 0:53:36.520 you could kind of compare it to religion or something 0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:39.239 like that, or praying. I agree with that, but I 0:53:40.040 --> 0:53:43.160 think the fact that it didn't exist and then became 0:53:43.800 --> 0:53:48.680 extant to make playing card games a little more interesting 0:53:48.880 --> 0:53:51.600 is kind of a fatal flaw in it. Okay, hold on, 0:53:51.680 --> 0:53:56.600 I'm taking notes. Salad based baseball not in the same 0:53:56.920 --> 0:54:00.640 as Tara. Okay, nice, all right at that? On final 0:54:01.160 --> 0:54:03.520 good thank you and thank you too, Anonymous. Sorry we 0:54:03.680 --> 0:54:06.759 let you down, But them's the brakes when you're talking 0:54:06.760 --> 0:54:09.799 about tarot. That's right. Um. If you want to get 0:54:09.800 --> 0:54:12.160 in touch with this, like Anonymous, did you can? You 0:54:12.239 --> 0:54:14.880 can send us an email to stuff podcast at iHeart 0:54:14.960 --> 0:54:20.440 radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production 0:54:20.480 --> 0:54:23.879 of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit 0:54:23.960 --> 0:54:27.000 the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen 0:54:27.120 --> 0:54:28.080 to your favorite shows.