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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh

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Speaker 1: and there in the past or the future, I can't tell.

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Speaker 1: It's Chuck and Jerry's here hanging out on the ether.

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Speaker 1: And that makes this stuff you should know hanging out

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Speaker 1: in the ether. She's ethereal she's actually on ether too,

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Speaker 1: to really complete the whole circle. Oh boy, I wish

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Speaker 1: I was so um Chuck, surely you've heard of attachment

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Speaker 1: theory before. It's so fully ingrained into pop culture that

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Speaker 1: I would be really surprised if there are many of

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Speaker 1: our listeners out there who aren't at least passingly familiar

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Speaker 1: with it. Yeah. I had heard of it, and it's um.

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Speaker 1: You know. I think this is a very instructive episode

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Speaker 1: for brand new parents because even if you think you

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Speaker 1: kind of know something about it, I learned a lot. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's you light now because you know, my daughter's seven

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Speaker 1: and a half, so we already screwed up, right. But

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Speaker 1: if you're just starting out with the baby, like, start early,

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Speaker 1: because whatever you do makes a big impact on their

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Speaker 1: adult life. Even Yeah, I think that's one of the

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Speaker 1: things that makes this so interesting, is like you've got

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Speaker 1: a really narrow window to not screw up your kid,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's you. It's on you, like you, the

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Speaker 1: primary caregiver, are responsible for your kids or not, so,

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Speaker 1: says attachment theory. A lot of people question that. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people say humans are way too complex, there's

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Speaker 1: way too many genetic and environmental and social forces working

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Speaker 1: on the individual to shape them. Or but there there

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Speaker 1: does seem to be like a lot of validity to

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Speaker 1: attachment theory, even if it isn't like the thing that

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Speaker 1: forms our personality. Yeah, and I think it's one of

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Speaker 1: those cool things that like, uh and you know, we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the history of it, but it

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Speaker 1: seems like kind of almost right away when we started

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Speaker 1: figuring out that there was attachment, there were some people,

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Speaker 1: even though it's gotten way more popular over the years,

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Speaker 1: to sort of look into this stuff, some people kind

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Speaker 1: of really early on, we're like, all right, well, why

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Speaker 1: like let's try and figure this thing out. Yeah, because attachment, um,

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Speaker 1: we should define it. It's basically a bond, an affinity

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Speaker 1: for that an infant has for their caregiver in vice

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Speaker 1: versa typically um and it is seems to be universal

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Speaker 1: that bond, that attachment between baby and caregiver around the world.

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Speaker 1: It just seems to be a human thing. Uh. It

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Speaker 1: also seems to show up in the animal kingdom, especially

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Speaker 1: among other mammals and primates. Um, it is a thing.

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Speaker 1: And like you said, people are like, but why, And

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Speaker 1: they started asking why after Darwin came along. So the

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Speaker 1: framework that everybody was looking at this through was evolution

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Speaker 1: natural selection. And the first kind of dominant explanation for

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Speaker 1: the whole thing, which we'll get into a little more later,

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Speaker 1: was behaviorism. And the upshot of behaviorism as it was

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Speaker 1: as it applies to um, that bond that forms between

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Speaker 1: baby and caregiver, Um is that the baby wants to

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Speaker 1: be fed, and the caregiver feeds the baby. Ergo, the

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Speaker 1: baby feels good about the caregiver. Yeah, and who cares

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Speaker 1: about your emotions? Yeah, we can't study those anyways. Was

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Speaker 1: kind of the prevailing theory. Yeah, that's exactly right. But

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Speaker 1: then along comes a guy and a lady and another

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Speaker 1: guy riding in on their ponies. It was strangely enough.

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Speaker 1: Uh No, it was a guy named John Bowlby. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There was a woman named Mary Ainsworth, and then there

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Speaker 1: was another guy. Uh, named William Blatts will show up

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Speaker 1: later and like we'll talk about them a little more

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Speaker 1: in a second. But Bowlby basically was among a small

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Speaker 1: handful of people who said that whole behaviorist um explanation

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Speaker 1: doesn't hold up because you can feed a baby and

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Speaker 1: the baby will still be crying, the baby will still

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Speaker 1: want the caregiver um, and sometimes a caregiver can sue

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Speaker 1: the baby without any food. So I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: just food that thereafter. I think it's something more, um, intangible,

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Speaker 1: but just as important as food. Yeah, like if your

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Speaker 1: baby scared, it's yeah, it's not all just about that.

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Speaker 1: You know that milk that you're getting, and you know

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Speaker 1: that stuff is important. Like we talked about in the

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Speaker 1: breastfeeding episode. Uh, you know, we covered you know, those

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Speaker 1: kinds of bonds and attachments that can happen from mother

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Speaker 1: to baby, but we also talked about the fact that

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Speaker 1: that's not you know, the end all be all, necessarily right. No, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: definitely milk is important. Food is important, but they're not

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Speaker 1: breastfeeding bond. Sure, oh the bond, sure, I get to yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the so, yeah, that bond in and of its

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Speaker 1: self is what Bowlby and attachment theory says, is the

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Speaker 1: important part of the bond. It's the bond. It bond.

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Speaker 1: The bond isn't like some um you know, byproduct of

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Speaker 1: that need for food and satisfying of the need for food.

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Speaker 1: It is the thing that the kid wants and that

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Speaker 1: the caregiver gives to the kid a bond, a connection,

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Speaker 1: a social connection with another human being that that cares

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Speaker 1: for that little little baby. Um. And that's it almost

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Speaker 1: sounds like on the surface like well, wait, what's the

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Speaker 1: big difference. The differences is the purpose of the bond

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Speaker 1: is emotional, and behaviorism says the purpose of the bond

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Speaker 1: is strictly to manipulate the person to get food. Right,

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Speaker 1: So there is an enormous amount of difference. And they

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Speaker 1: came up at around the same time, and it turned

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Speaker 1: out that attachment theory basically completely supplanted behaviorism, as we'll see. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think what's interesting is that, uh, at least in

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Speaker 1: our case, Like right when my daughter was born, she

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Speaker 1: comes out, they're like get in there in that other

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Speaker 1: room and take your shirt off, like mom and dad,

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Speaker 1: and like start putting that skin on skin. They call

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Speaker 1: it skin on skin. Yeah, and that skin on skin contact,

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Speaker 1: they say, is just you know, do it as much

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Speaker 1: as you can, as often as you can, uh, from

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Speaker 1: from the get go, which I guess is part of

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Speaker 1: attachment theory, even though that's a physical bond. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I really don't know. It didn't come up, so I

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Speaker 1: it's got to have something to do with it. But

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Speaker 1: I didn't see anything like where that skin on skin

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Speaker 1: contact is an important part of attachment. Yeah, I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of curious. I'm meant to look into that. But it's

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Speaker 1: one thing that that's it's a big deal now, you know,

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Speaker 1: whereas in the old days they were like, you know,

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Speaker 1: dad's down the street, you know, in a bar, and

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Speaker 1: eventually you'll meet your child. Yeah, exactly. And that also

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Speaker 1: explains I realized now why you started wearing wide mesh

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Speaker 1: crop top shirts all the time. Just that skin on

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Speaker 1: skin context. Skin to win is our motto. So the

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Speaker 1: upshot of attachment theories, that's everybody that you're a primary

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Speaker 1: caregiver and if you make yourself available, if you're responsive

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Speaker 1: to an infant's needs to be soothed when they're scared,

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Speaker 1: to be fed when they're hungry, to be hut like cuddled,

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Speaker 1: that give them that skin on skin contact. Then the

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Speaker 1: infant learns that they can depend on that, and that

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Speaker 1: gives them a sense of security that in a few

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Speaker 1: years they can use to go explore the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world knowing they have a safe home base. That's

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Speaker 1: attachment theory, and that's not If you don't do that exactly,

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Speaker 1: then it has all sorts of other effects that make

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Speaker 1: the kid not secure from that that time on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, a lot of this may seem like

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Speaker 1: uh no dub type of stuff now because we're way

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Speaker 1: more um just sort of in tune with that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing now, in a little more touchy feeling now,

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Speaker 1: So it seems very obvious I think these days. But

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Speaker 1: as you'll see, and a lot of this has to

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Speaker 1: do with how you react, um like when the child

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Speaker 1: may be upset. It wasn't always that way. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we'll you know, we'll touch on it later, but there

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Speaker 1: up until semi recently, there were times where it was like, no,

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Speaker 1: if your child is upset, you know, uh, try and

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Speaker 1: get them to not be upset in any way you can.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's a punishment, maybe you ignore it. And that

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Speaker 1: was sort of the way, and it's just it's crazy

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Speaker 1: to think about such an obvious thing as like, no,

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Speaker 1: you should provide comfort to an upset kid first and

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Speaker 1: foremost and kind of work out from there. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: because I'm not saying there's no like behavioral things you

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Speaker 1: need to address, but uh, it's just really interesting that

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Speaker 1: it took that long to arrive what to me. What

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Speaker 1: to me is like a really kind of obvious thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I wonder though, if this is where we finally progress too,

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Speaker 1: or if behaviorism was a diversion from stuff we've been

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Speaker 1: doing before, which probably for a strong resemblance to attachment theory,

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, like Tuktok may have been a better

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Speaker 1: parent than dad in the nineteen forties. Yeah, and Bob

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Speaker 1: Dobbs or something. Yeah, exactly. So, um, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the people who who literally changed the world because you

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Speaker 1: really put your finger on something, something sticky and smelly

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Speaker 1: when you said that, Um, it just seems like no, duh, now,

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Speaker 1: like that is how thoroughly it has completely permeated Western society. Um.

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Speaker 1: And and you can point to John Bowlby and Mary

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Speaker 1: Ainsworth is two people who changed the world by by

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Speaker 1: getting attachment theory across and showing like this actually has

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Speaker 1: real legs. Yeah. So Bowlby was a brit Uh. He

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Speaker 1: was a psychiatrist and he was raised he you know,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty clear that he probably had um some kind

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Speaker 1: of money growing up because he was ra is by

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Speaker 1: a host of nanny's uh in England. And uh, it

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Speaker 1: seems like when he got older he was very much

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Speaker 1: into exploring what that meant to him, because he I

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Speaker 1: guess had a memory or at least maybe uncovered some

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Speaker 1: trauma from when he had his main nanny uh split

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Speaker 1: for another job when he was really young. And when

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Speaker 1: you're a little kid, like if if that's your scene

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Speaker 1: growing up, that main nanny, that's like your caregiver. And

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Speaker 1: so it would I would guess be a kin to

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Speaker 1: like mom leaving or something like that. Uh. And this

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Speaker 1: was in like the what like nineteen thirties. So he

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Speaker 1: started exploring that, which was a very I think, kind

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Speaker 1: of forward introspective kind of thing to be thinking about

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Speaker 1: back then. Uh, it doesn't seem like the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing that was innate back then, but he started thinking

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Speaker 1: about his own life and that really informed his his

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Speaker 1: research or his interest in researching it. Yeah, and it

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Speaker 1: makes you wonder if that nanny hadn't left and inspired

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Speaker 1: him to kind of look into the damage that it did.

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Speaker 1: I mean, would we even have attachment theory. It's a

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Speaker 1: it's a big question. May have just had a tougher

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Speaker 1: time because they really it seems worked great in tandem together, right,

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Speaker 1: So um bowlby Uh, he started investigating juvenile delinquents. Um.

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Speaker 1: That was where he started to kind of look for like,

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Speaker 1: if you want to prove a point, go find the

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Speaker 1: extremes and then investigate that, and it's the easiest way

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Speaker 1: to uncover the mechanations of things. So we started looking

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Speaker 1: at juvenile delinquents and basically was like, it's the kids

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Speaker 1: home life that that makes them a delinquent. It's nothing else,

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Speaker 1: Like you can take poverty away, you can take um,

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Speaker 1: you know, rule out all these other factors, and if

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Speaker 1: the home life is stable and supportive, the kids probably

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Speaker 1: not going to be a juvenile delinquent. If it's not,

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Speaker 1: there's a chance the kid will be a juvenile delinquent.

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Speaker 1: So out of the gate, he's already contributing to siety

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Speaker 1: through his research and his theories. Yeah, and I thought

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Speaker 1: it was interesting and that he wasn't necessarily just saying like,

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Speaker 1: good parent, bad parent. He worked at the London Child

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Speaker 1: Guidance Clinic and he was looking and in fact wrote

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Speaker 1: a letter to the British Medical Journal talking about just

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Speaker 1: family separations because of jobs, uh and chiefly world War two.

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Speaker 1: World War two comes along right when he's sort of

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Speaker 1: getting into this, and families all of a sudden are

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Speaker 1: split up, and he hit on a key thing, which

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Speaker 1: is like, hey, that's that's no good to have a

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Speaker 1: parent taken away from a child at an early age.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think he was saying, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't send soldiers to war because uh, their kids

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Speaker 1: are going to be delinquents later, but he was saying

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Speaker 1: this might happen as a result of that. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: even more than just you know, father's going off to war,

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Speaker 1: like like children were removed from their parents to get

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Speaker 1: them to safer places out in the countryside. Um, if

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Speaker 1: you've ever seen The Lady in Black two, the horror

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Speaker 1: movie that's kind of the premise of it, have yeah

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Speaker 1: a few times. All these little kids are like removed

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Speaker 1: from London where it's very dangerous, but their parents need

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Speaker 1: to stay behind and contribute to the to the war

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Speaker 1: if art working in the factories and yeah, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course it's going to have that effect. So he's

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Speaker 1: telling everybody this like, this might not be the best idea,

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Speaker 1: even though the intentions are great. Sorry. And then he

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Speaker 1: moves into the juvenile delinquents. He he had a paper

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Speaker 1: called forty four Juvenile Thieves Their Character and Home Life,

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Speaker 1: And that's when he was like, it's the home life

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Speaker 1: that's that's the problem. Yeah. He took kind of a

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Speaker 1: big swing here because he went all, you know, all

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Speaker 1: the way out on a limb to say like, hey,

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Speaker 1: your kid maybe like a criminal later in life. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And they may be using you know, like stealing material things,

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Speaker 1: maybe a literal substitute or I guess in a little

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Speaker 1: substitute there, I go, a figurative substitute for the fact

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Speaker 1: that they didn't get the love they needed as a kid. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, he I don't think he

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Speaker 1: talked about in this paper. But of course later that

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Speaker 1: could be drug addiction or any sort of bad road

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Speaker 1: you go down. Yeah, And so he followed that up.

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Speaker 1: The World Health Organization, right when the u N starts

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Speaker 1: to be form, basically hired him in nineteen fifty to

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Speaker 1: work on the mental health of homeless children. It is amazing.

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Speaker 1: This guy was a pretty amazing dude, just based on

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Speaker 1: his research right doing this back then, you know, right right,

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Speaker 1: especially when the dominant view was no, these are all

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Speaker 1: little robots, this stuff doesn't matter at all, and he's saying, no,

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Speaker 1: this actually matters a lot. And he came out with

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Speaker 1: a book called Childcare and the Growth of Love. It

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Speaker 1: was basically bait. I know, it's a great title, but

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Speaker 1: it was based on the work and the research that

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Speaker 1: he did for the World Health Organization. But he he

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Speaker 1: very wisely, I get the impression, wrote it for a

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Speaker 1: popular audience and that helped the whole theory gain traction,

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Speaker 1: and the theory he was these juvenile delinquents I've been

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Speaker 1: investigating um that had a bad home life. Well I

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Speaker 1: went and figured out where the whole thing starts, and

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Speaker 1: it starts really early on in infancy, and that it's

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Speaker 1: all about nurturing the child that leads to proper development,

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Speaker 1: and that if you don't nurture the child properly, they're

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Speaker 1: going to be psychologically damaged humans for the rest of

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Speaker 1: their lives. So let's start figuring out how to nurture

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Speaker 1: them properly. Yeah, and I think you kind of hit

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Speaker 1: on it. The key here was it wasn't a scientific paper.

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Speaker 1: This was like, hey, people in the public sphere, let's

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Speaker 1: read this book. Yeah. I think that's a good time

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Speaker 1: for a break. I feel like we could just keep

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Speaker 1: going and just say forget the ads. Sure, let's make

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Speaker 1: it a Christmas special, but maybe we should take a

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Speaker 1: break and then introduce Mary Ainsworth in earnest after that. Huh, agreed? Okay, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: So we're back in It's high time that Mary Ainsworth

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Speaker 1: wrote in on her Palomino and that's a great great

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Speaker 1: reference there. Um, we should say Ed helped us out

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Speaker 1: with this one. And he made a little aside somewhere

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Speaker 1: in this article. I can't remember quite where, but he

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Speaker 1: wanted to point out that he started looking into Mary

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Speaker 1: Ainsworth and expected to find that she was just kind

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Speaker 1: of like the woman working behind the scenes who never

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Speaker 1: really got credit until long after her death. And he

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Speaker 1: said he was very pleasantly surprised to find that Nope,

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Speaker 1: she was viewed as a collaborator of Bowlby's, that they

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Speaker 1: came up with this together, and she was very much

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Speaker 1: lauded within her lifetime like she was she was seen

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Speaker 1: and respected for her work at it, like during the

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Speaker 1: fifties basically, So that's a big deal. I think it's

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Speaker 1: worth mentioning off the bat, absolutely because I feel like

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Speaker 1: we've come up with so many of these stories through

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Speaker 1: the years in research terms, where like the man stamps

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Speaker 1: his name on it and it's like thanks, thanks for

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Speaker 1: the help Mary, exactly, Now go give me some coffee.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. No, that isn't what happened. So Mary Ainsworth

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Speaker 1: moves to London. I don't know she did it to

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Speaker 1: specifically work with Bowlby or not, but she ended up

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Speaker 1: working with him pretty quickly, and she brought with her

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Speaker 1: a theory that had been worked out by someone else

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Speaker 1: she'd worked with. I think he was a bit of

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Speaker 1: a mentor to her. His name was William E. Blatts,

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Speaker 1: and Blats came up with something called security theory, which

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Speaker 1: basically says that if if a kid has security early

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Speaker 1: in life that they can trust in their their caregiver,

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Speaker 1: then they have a foundation for exploration later on in life.

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Speaker 1: And as Ed puts it, it seems like it was

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Speaker 1: a bit of a beta version of attachment theory. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of like attachment theory without the explanation of why

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Speaker 1: or how. Yeah, And it turns out that Mary Ainsworth

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Speaker 1: was really good at UM helping to find out the

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Speaker 1: why because she knew, like, hey, we can sit around

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Speaker 1: and have high tea and theorize all day over here

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Speaker 1: in England. And she said, it's very nice. I enjoy

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Speaker 1: the high tea. It's one of the reasons I moved.

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Speaker 1: Those cucumber sandwiches are dealish, Yeah, finky thinky sandwiches are lovely,

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Speaker 1: But like, we need to do, like we need to

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Speaker 1: try and prove this stuff and do experimentation. And one

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Speaker 1: of the experiments, uh, they ended up working together at

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Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins University, and she developed a very famous experiment called,

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Speaker 1: uh Strange, the Strange Situation Capitalist capitals, And it sounds

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Speaker 1: kind of mean, but it's not as mean as it

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Speaker 1: got and you'll find out, you know, later on that uh,

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Speaker 1: this other character comes in that was kind of a

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Speaker 1: human monster with his experiments. But the strange situation was

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Speaker 1: basically a situation where you had a a kid and

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Speaker 1: their caregiver in a room for twenty one minutes, and

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Speaker 1: over those twenty one minutes, there would be a series

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Speaker 1: of comings and goings of the caregiver and a stranger

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Speaker 1: so like, and there was some overlap here and there,

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Speaker 1: so that the caregiver would be there and then a

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Speaker 1: stranger would enter. And then every time one of them

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Speaker 1: would leave, that was labeled as a conspicuous exit. Whatever

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Speaker 1: that means, I am leaving, I guess so. But and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't like the stranger would come in and just

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Speaker 1: sit there with crossed arms like they It says that

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Speaker 1: the stranger would be like geared towards the child's activities

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Speaker 1: or whatever. So I would like to see it in action,

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Speaker 1: to see what they actually did. But um, it was

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Speaker 1: just a series of comings and goings with the goal

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Speaker 1: to basically kind of see what, you know, how the

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Speaker 1: child reacts in what to their mind might look feel

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Speaker 1: like a crisis, and how strongly they respond to everybody,

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Speaker 1: to the caregiver leaving, to the stranger coming in, to

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Speaker 1: perhaps bonding some with the stranger or not, then the

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Speaker 1: stranger leaving, and then if you're mad when the caregiver

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Speaker 1: comes back because they left, or if you were just

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Speaker 1: super relieved. So there's like all kinds of things you

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Speaker 1: can unpack with the capitals, capitals, strange situation, right, But

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Speaker 1: what she found is that there's really just a few

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Speaker 1: buckets that you can put these responses in, which is

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Speaker 1: really something that means you're onto something when you're like, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is crazy. These kids are acting or responding within

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Speaker 1: one of three or four ways. And um even more

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Speaker 1: important or just as important, I should say, she also

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Speaker 1: did some field work in Uganda, UM studying like infant

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Speaker 1: caregiver bonding, and um found that like, these kids respond

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Speaker 1: in the same way as American kids do, UM in

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Speaker 1: these same four buckets. So she was definitely onto something

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Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, and that kind of work game super

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Speaker 1: important as far as uh, you know, because it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just like let's just uh explored that what's happening with

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Speaker 1: these American babies, like if they wanted to find out

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Speaker 1: if it was a cross cultural and then eventually drilling

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Speaker 1: down even more to like socio economic and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: So all just super valuable stuff for sure. So UM,

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Speaker 1: it's like you said, Bowlby came up with the theories,

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Speaker 1: and Ainsworth figured out how to how to explain why

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Speaker 1: those theories did a pretty good job of explaining bonding

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Speaker 1: and attachment right. Um, So just to kind of like

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Speaker 1: get a little further into behaviorism and what they were

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Speaker 1: up against by by coming up with this completely radical

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Speaker 1: new idea of what makes a good human being. Um,

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Speaker 1: they were up against behaviorism. And one of the most

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Speaker 1: famous behaviorists was BF Skinner, And what B. F. Skinner

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Speaker 1: was working on was operant conditioning, which is you take

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Speaker 1: a behavior and you pair it with a consequence. It

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Speaker 1: can be a reward, it can be a punished meant.

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Speaker 1: But depending on whether you want to encourage that behavior

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Speaker 1: or discourage that behavior, you punish it or you reward it. Right,

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Speaker 1: And that means that that behavior then is learned. That's

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Speaker 1: the basis of behavioralism. That it's that these behaviors are

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Speaker 1: learned traits. Uh. And that's not at all what Bulby

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Speaker 1: and Ainsworth were finding. They came to realize or believe that, um,

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Speaker 1: that bonding and attachment was an innate trait, not a

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Speaker 1: learned trait. Right. So, like if you have affection towards someone,

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Speaker 1: it's not there because you need it, but it is

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Speaker 1: just a stimulus basically to further the caregiving. That's the

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Speaker 1: behaviorist viewpoint. Yeah, and you know, Skinner in a skinner Box,

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Speaker 1: which I feel like we've talked to that about that

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Speaker 1: a bunch of times for sure. But the so like

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Speaker 1: these guys were saying like they they turned this behavioristum

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Speaker 1: explanation for bonding um into like child rearing practices and

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Speaker 1: like wrote book and basically said like, if your baby

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Speaker 1: is crying and you pick that baby up and soThe that,

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Speaker 1: you have just reinforced crying behavior and they're going to

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Speaker 1: cry for the rest of their life. So you should

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Speaker 1: probably never approach a crying baby, just ignore them. Basically, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they almost treated it as if you were like, uh,

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Speaker 1: that that was equivalent to a child having a tantrum later,

402
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 1: you know, and this is just it's not the same thing.

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Speaker 1: There is a behavior's named John B. Watson. I think

404
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Speaker 1: we've spoken about him before to his name is very familiar,

405
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Speaker 1: but he wrote a parenting book and um a couple

406
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Speaker 1: of excerpts from it are as follows. He said that

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Speaker 1: you should never hug or kiss your kid or let

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Speaker 1: them sit on your lap. Get this, you should shake

409
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Speaker 1: hands with them in the morning. Well I agree with

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Speaker 1: that parton if they if they've done an extraordinary good

411
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 1: job at some difficult task, then maybe you can give

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Speaker 1: them a pat on the head and then if you

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Speaker 1: must must, then you can kiss them once on the

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Speaker 1: forehead when they say good night. This was like the

415
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Speaker 1: the the interaction that they said, if you do this

416
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Speaker 1: with your kid, you're gonna produce a good kid, not

417
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: a um a social deviant monster who And frankly, this

418
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: fully explains the boomer generation because this is about the

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Speaker 1: time that these kids are being born and raised. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when was his uh when was Watson around the fifties?

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Speaker 1: This is Yeah, I'd be curious to find out what

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Speaker 1: his h if he had children, how that went. They're

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Speaker 1: still like trembling. I'm guessing they just want that pat

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Speaker 1: on the head when they meet somebody. But I mean

425
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Speaker 1: imagine that people were like, yeah, that's a great idea.

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Speaker 1: I can shake hands with my kid in the morning,

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Speaker 1: and they're gonna turn out to be aces. They're going

428
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: to be the toast when they get older. Yeah. No

429
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: good uh yeah nice nice ref that almost slipped by me. Um.

430
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: Should we talk about the three sort of buckets, which

431
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: basically clear the three attachment styles? I think we should

432
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: all right, Well, the first one is uh, well that

433
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 1: it turned out that there were four, but um, thankfully,

434
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: the fourth is is a very small percentage of infants

435
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: are exposed to this kind of attachment. But the first

436
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: is secure and that means you know, you're you're doing

437
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: great as apparent. That means you're nurturing and you respond.

438
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: And again a lot of this is what to do

439
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: when your kid is upset. You're responding with um support

440
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: and by calming them and by nurturing them rather than

441
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: you know, doing the Watson method. And again, in turn,

442
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: I know it sounds like we're beating a dead horse,

443
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: but that will make the child feel secure. They're gonna

444
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: feel supported. Uh, They're gonna feel like they're able to

445
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: express negative emotions. And I think that is a semi

446
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: modern thing. Is is like negative feelings are okay, Like

447
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: you're not supposed to get your child to quit crying.

448
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: You're supposed to say, cry it out, feel those feelings

449
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: and let's like talk about them, um, and then shake

450
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: hands afterwards, shake hands. They well done. Here's a cucumber sandwich. Uh.

451
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: And this is called and organized and they're sort of

452
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: uh further um described as organized or disorganized. This one

453
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: is organized. And I think what which is a pretty

454
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: good number of infants apparently are are brought up and

455
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: nurtured in this way, right. And also to circle it back,

456
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: Mary Ainsworth is the one who's like, Okay, there's a

457
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: lot of kids kids who respond in this way, right.

458
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: And what she's finding is that in that strange situation test,

459
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: the secure children will be distressed when their parents leaves

460
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 1: and then will be relieved when the parent comes back.

461
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: They will go to the parent for comfort, and then

462
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: the parent finds it very easy to calm the child down,

463
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: comfort them, and then the child goes back to playing

464
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: with the toys like nothing ever happened. It all just

465
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 1: rolled off their back. That that is the that forms

466
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: that secure attachment, right. Um. And like you said, it's

467
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: organized because the kid knows that they can go to

468
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 1: the parent, the parents canna reassure them, and then it's

469
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: going to be all good. Yeah, there's like a structure

470
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: there that even an infant can understand. It's so basic exactly. Um.

471
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: The next one that she found, I think covers about

472
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: of infants. It's avoidant and this one is where the

473
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 1: caregiver just doesn't really give the kid what they need.

474
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: And we're talking infants here, right, doesn't like the the

475
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: the infant is in distress, and the caregiver might just

476
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: like ignore them, They might get annoyed with them. They

477
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: might kind of mock the kids distress and like little babelo,

478
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: what's will that will baby? Or you upset kind of thing,

479
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: which I mean, I can't imagine how many times I've

480
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: heard that in my life, like in movies, are on TV,

481
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: and probably even in real life. And when you step

482
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: back and realize that you're mocking an infant and you're

483
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: screwing them up as you do it, well, here's how

484
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: you screw them up right, and um, in the actual

485
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: strange situation, Um, the kid is totally normal that you

486
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: can't really distinguish them from the secure kids until the

487
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: caregiver leaves and the secure kids member they became distressed.

488
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: The avoidant kids they're actually like, I'm I'm all good,

489
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna keep playing with these Lincoln logs, right,

490
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: although I think it's a little old for infants, but regardless,

491
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: And then when the caregiver comes back, they either ignore

492
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: the caregiver or may actually like go away from the

493
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: caregiver because what they've learned is that their emotions upset

494
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: the caregiver. So they have to manage their own emotions

495
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: and they have to hide them. And that is what

496
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: the you learn as an infant if you have an

497
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: avoidant attachment. Yeah, like this, this behavior drives my caregiver

498
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: away from me, so I have to go into my

499
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: room to be upset or something. It's sort of just

500
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: occurring to me reading all this. That how much the

501
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: story of Popeye the Sailor Man, because to play Popeye

502
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: when he was an infinct then Peppy wasn't around. Uh,

503
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: there was a lot of like they had a lot

504
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: of unpacking to do. He and Pappy, I don't remember that.

505
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: I just remember him beating people up. Yeah. Pappy was

506
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: Popeye's dad, and he didn't get the love he needed

507
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: when he was an infink. Uh. And so that's probably

508
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: why he was violent huh later in life. Yeah, I

509
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: mean that makes sense. Although if he had been disorganized,

510
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: it would have made more sense that he was violent. Uh,

511
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: it was Popeye organized, I guess, I don't know. I

512
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: mean I would say he's probably disorganized, had a disorganized

513
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: attachment because that's the one that's associated with violence. Yeah.

514
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: I think Pappy was cold. So if Pappy was cold,

515
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,719
Speaker 1: he probably would have developed avoidance, right yeah, if Pappy

516
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: was um uh inconsistent, Where Pappy was sometimes like oh

517
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: it's okay, you know, and reassured little infant Popeye and

518
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: then other times ignored infant Popeye. Infant Popeye would learn

519
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: that there was no real way to depend on Pappy

520
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: and no real way to predict when Pappy was going

521
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: to respond to Popeye's needs. Right yeah. This inconsistency, this

522
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: is called the resistant bucket. It almost seems that it

523
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: does as much damage as uh as the other one.

524
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, yeah, I mean there, I mean this

525
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: is something I've learned as apparent that like structure, like

526
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: kids really really count on that, even though they don't

527
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: know that they count on that because they don't understand

528
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: it at that point. But like disrupting uh schedule and

529
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: disrupting a structure UH is very um like it shouldn't

530
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: be taken lightly, as apparent, even small things. And Emily

531
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: and I find ourselves all the time still just being like,

532
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 1: oh god, you know, we didn't really think about like um,

533
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: coming back from them by vacation or or just launching

534
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: back into school like we're parents. We can or adults,

535
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: we can kind of zig and zag with life, but

536
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: you can't always count on a kid to be able

537
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: to do that. Uh. And I think that's sort of

538
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: um in a way, that that sort of inconsistency playing out,

539
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: you know as a kid gets older. Right, Yeah, no, totally.

540
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: And like in this strange situation UM experiment, these kids

541
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: were distressed even before the parent left, They were distressed

542
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: while the parent was gone, and then when the parent

543
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: came back, they might be angry to the parent, they

544
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: might be um clingy to the parent. And I saw

545
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: this explained as these kids develop a preoccupation with their attachment.

546
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: They're they're not sure when their their caretakers going to

547
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: respond to him, so they can't focus on anything else

548
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: but whether or not their caretaker is going to respond

549
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: to them. And they by being clingy there like trying

550
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: to force the caregiver to respond. They may cry louder

551
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: than other kids because they're trying to force the caregiver

552
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: to respond. And that's the ambivalent or resistant attachment style.

553
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: And yeah, it is. It is a sad way to

554
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: screw up a kid. It seems like, Yeah, the final one,

555
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: which is the smallest bucket is the only one that's

556
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: labeled is disorganized. Even though resistant is pretty chaotic, it's

557
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: still organized, like you said, but this is And a

558
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: lot of times they point out that the caregiver in

559
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: the disorganized case is UM may have a trauma that

560
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: they suffered. This is sort of like that cycle that

561
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: repeats itself. Or they may have like some mental health

562
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: issue or something and are not UM maybe not able

563
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: to like concentrate on the needs of the kids so

564
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: or at least consistently. So it's also inconsistent, just like

565
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: resistant is. But this feels like inconsistent plus right right,

566
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: It's it's like, um, you may intimidate the kid to

567
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: up crying. You may yell at the kid to stop crying.

568
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: I get the impression with an ambivalent resistant kid, the

569
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: caretakers not yelling at you, are trying to intimidate you.

570
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: They're just not responding. In some cases this is like

571
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: really mean stuff. Or they might be inconsistent in that

572
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: there they choose to soothe, but they're doing it without

573
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: any real emotion. They're like, oh, it's okay, you're gonna

574
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: be fine. It's the right kind of thing. And so

575
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: that kids not getting any right, and they're not getting support.

576
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: But not only that, their caregiver, the one person who's

577
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: supposed to be the source of stability in the entire

578
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: universe for that kid, is a source of fear. And

579
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: so in the strange situation experiment, kids who had disorganized attachment,

580
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: they might go to the stranger just as as frequently

581
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: as they might go to their parents. When they came back,

582
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: they might run from their parents. They might freeze and

583
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: not know which person to go to. They might be

584
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: confused because their caregiver is a source of fear and

585
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: they but they still have that need, they just don't

586
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: know where to get it. It's extremely sad um and

587
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: it is the kind that seems to really lead to

588
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 1: serious problems UM early in life and then on into adulthood.

589
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: You ever do that thing, uh, you know, you me

590
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: ever do that thing where you put Momo in the

591
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: middle of you and you stand for apart and you

592
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: both start calling her. Yeah, I don't think either one

593
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: of us could bear to know that we weren't the one.

594
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 1: But I know pretty well that she would go to human.

595
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: She wouldn't be happy about it, but she would go

596
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: to UM. That's sad Um, I don't know why people

597
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: would do that, but I've seen that done on the internet.

598
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: Probably is a joke, Like, surely no one would do

599
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: that and put any like stock in it. Speaking of

600
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: a joke, you showed me this. There was this meme recently. Um,

601
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: although this comes out in a couple of weeks, so

602
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: this meme will probably be ancient by then. But there's

603
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: a trend I think on TikTok where kids, um fake

604
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: re being the news that their parents favorite celebrity has died,

605
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: and then they they tape it and like, oh man,

606
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: I can understand being upset about it because it's just

607
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: like really emotionally abusive. But at the same time, if

608
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 1: you watch like a highlight reel of some of the

609
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: some of the more pronounced responses, it's it's tough not

610
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: to crack up. I haven't seen any of them. I

611
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: just solved that some celebrities are like pretty ticked off

612
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: about it. Why would the celebrities be ticked off? I

613
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: don't know our celebrities ever ticked off. I don't know

614
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: celebrities who needs them. Remember that point at the very

615
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: beginning of the pandemic where we almost got rid of celebrities.

616
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 1: Do you remember when everybody was so sick of celebrities?

617
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 1: There was that whole gal Goodo screwed up about singing.

618
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: Imagine Madonna in the bath with Rose Pedal talking about

619
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: how everybody's equal and everybody was just kind of sick

620
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 1: and tired of celebrities right then, and it seemed like

621
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: we were gonna shed our our fascination with them. It

622
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: just didn't pan out. Good luck. Yeah, right, all right,

623
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: we should probably take our second break, uh, and then

624
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 1: we'll talk about you know, we mentioned testing these theories,

625
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: and there's more to it than just the capital est

626
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: capitalist strange situation. So we'll be back right after this

627
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: to talk about testing. All right. When it comes to

628
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: testing these kind of a lot of psychological testing, but

629
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: especially this, it's pretty tough because in order to get

630
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: like a robust test, we've talked about it over and over,

631
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: you need to be able to repeat stuff. You need

632
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: to be able to have large sample sizes. Uh, and

633
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: it's really tough in this case because, uh, it's hard

634
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: to get you know, when you're studying humans like this,

635
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: and especially this kind of thing where you study infinite attachment,

636
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: and then you want to know what they're like later

637
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 1: in life. This is really long drawn out studies over

638
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: years and years, even decades, and it's hard to get

639
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: like a large sample size. So right out of the gate,

640
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: your longevity is hampered, your sample size is hampered. And

641
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: then the other big knock is it's really impossible to

642
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: not uh think about the variables that might come up

643
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 1: that would also influence uh the outcomes, which in this case,

644
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: it's like it's almost an infinite list of variables that

645
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: could affect uh, these kinds of studies. Yeah, like are

646
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: you going to screen the study participants for um, you know,

647
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: genetic traits that you are going to try to control

648
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: for or whether there's lead paint in their home. Um.

649
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: There's just so much stuff, And it also is based

650
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: on how complex humans are, how many influences we have.

651
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: But the upshot of it is is that attachment theory

652
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 1: has been the dominant explanation for UM, how little baby

653
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 1: personalities are formed, uh and how we kind of view

654
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: the world from that point on UM for sixty years now.

655
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why is because it holds up.

656
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: There's a lot of criticisms of it. It's not perfect,

657
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: it's not complete, but the gist of it generally holds up. Yeah.

658
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: And you know, we mentioned mary An's worth doing work

659
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: in Uganda and UH studying like kind of cross cultural

660
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: UH lengths and ties, and they did find that it

661
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: is basically cross cultural UH and as we'll see even

662
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: within like different animal species as well. But UH, children

663
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: basically of all cultures do exhibit these attachment theory behaviors.

664
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: But there were some differences, and I think what the

665
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: main ones they found, doubt was that their proportions of

666
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 1: the attachment styles were different depending on the culture, although

667
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: they also said that I think they found out later

668
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 1: that UM, socio economic differences even outweighed cultural differences, right. Yeah,

669
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: and I also saw that UM, typically peers are thought

670
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: to influence the development of a person's personality way more

671
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: than any other factors. UM. But that's not to say

672
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 1: that your attachment doesn't have influences on on the rest

673
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: of your life, right. UM. The thing that they found, though,

674
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: one of the things that makes the strange situation tests

675
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: difficult is that, yes, the responses among infants are universal

676
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: and fit into those four buckets, but the way that

677
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 1: that caregivers soothe infants is is culturally constructed. It's not

678
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: the same around cultures. So if you're conducting this test

679
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: in the Czech Republic, you have to figure out how

680
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: the people in the Czech Republic soothe their kids and

681
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: then quantify the results based on those different ways of

682
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: sooth their kids or not. Yeah, Czech Republic. Huh sure.

683
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: That first thing that came to mind it was I'd

684
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: like to go to Prague. I try to go to

685
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: Prague in my backpacking adventure years ago. But our europass,

686
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: our your rail pass did not cover Prague. Weird at

687
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: the time. I think it probably does now, but this was, uh,

688
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: you know, this is in the mid early to mid nineties,

689
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: so anyway, I didn't go to Prague. Okay, should we

690
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: talk about the monster. Yeah, a guy named Harry Harlow.

691
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: We've talked about him before, sure, I know we have.

692
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: We definitely have it think in a video in a

693
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 1: video explainer. But his bastards of science rookie card is

694
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 1: worth a lot of money and he is a total bastard.

695
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: If there's a hell, this guy's in it, there's just

696
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 1: no way, shape or form around it. Because his experiments

697
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: seemed to have gone well beyond the realm of science

698
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: and into just torture. Yeah. So what he did was

699
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: worked with monkeys. Uh. And one of the main things

700
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: he did as far as attachment theory go, is he

701
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: got to this one experiment he would get to artificial

702
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: surrogate monkey mommy's there was one that was covered in cloth,

703
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: and there was one that was just made of like

704
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 1: chicken wire, and they were both warned by a light bulb.

705
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: But again, one is cloth, one is chicken wire. And

706
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 1: he would uh, well, he found out that infant monkeys

707
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: would bond with the cloth mother, no surprise. But if

708
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: you started having the wire only mother provide milk, infants

709
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,240
Speaker 1: would go to feed with the wire uh monkey mama,

710
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: and then cuddle with the cloth monkey mama. Uh. And

711
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: you you know, you hear that, and you think, like,

712
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: all right, that that doesn't sound like the worst thing

713
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: in the world. But what he started doing it just

714
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 1: it seems like he got increasingly more disturbing. Uh. He

715
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: would raise infant monkeys in isolation, uh some times parcels,

716
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: sometimes complete isolation. Uh. This would you know, basically cause

717
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: mental illness in these monkeys as they grew older. He

718
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: would uh some of these monkeys were so messed up

719
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 1: that they couldn't do things like mate later in life,

720
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 1: and he wanted to to test like intergenerationality of these effects.

721
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: So what would the messed up monkeys little monkey kids

722
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: be like? But these monkeys were so messed up the

723
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: females they couldn't mate. So he invented a contraption which basically, uh,

724
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: required that the female monkey mate. And I guess that's

725
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: as deep as we need to go. Yeah. Um. He

726
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: also had something that he liked to call the Pit

727
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 1: of Despair, which was an inverted pyramid. It produced total

728
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: isolation um, and that the monkeys that were inserted into

729
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: the Pit of Despair were introduced to it starting at

730
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: three weeks old. And so like, I mean, we know

731
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: now what solitary confinement can do on an adult human

732
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: after a very short time. Imagine being raised from three

733
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: weeks old in solitary confinement your entire life and it

734
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: just breaks you mentally, it breaks your spirit, it breaks

735
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: everything about you. And again, yes, this guy showed with

736
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 1: the wire monkey experiment that behaviorism was wrong, that they

737
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 1: weren't just after food. They needed a bond, They needed

738
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: an affection, and that need is so strong they would

739
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 1: actually bond with a cloth covered wire monkey. That's where

740
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 1: his experiment should have stopped, because beyond that, he's not

741
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: really contributing much to it, aside from showing that you

742
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: can really break monkeys by isolating them from a very

743
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,479
Speaker 1: early age. And even one of his students said later

744
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: on that it was clear to many people the work

745
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: was really violating ordinary sensibilities that anybody with respect for life,

746
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: for people would find this offensive, and he was absolutely

747
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: right about that. Absolutely. Um. One of the kind of

748
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 1: cool things now that we have learned because of attachment

749
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: theory is again like it gave a real blueprint for

750
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: how to parent from day one. And uh, you know,

751
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 1: behaviorism was the dominant theory before this came along, and

752
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: it was really just a see change and how we

753
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,959
Speaker 1: saw child rearing and you know, thank goodness they came along.

754
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,919
Speaker 1: I guess we should talk a little bit about James Robertson, right. Yeah,

755
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: I think it's great because this was in terms he

756
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: you know, it's like this is all great and like

757
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: as far as like how to parent better and stuff

758
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: like that, but this was also a time when you know,

759
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: hospital visitation of course, you know, pre COVID. You know,

760
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: things are all messed up now because people it was

761
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: kind of brought back to this place where you couldn't,

762
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: you know, sort of be with your kid in the

763
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: hospital if they were sick a lot of times because

764
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: visitation rules and rites just weren't the same back then. So, uh,

765
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: James Robertson comes around. He worked with Bulby in the

766
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: fifties and he started noticing like, hey, this is really

767
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: messed up that you'll send a a very young child

768
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: to the hospital and basically tell the parents to wait

769
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: at the door, and it's super stressful. And he wrote

770
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: a book, I'm Sorry. He made a documentary short film

771
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: called A Two year Old Goes to the Hospital and

772
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: it showed these traumas that like when these and it's

773
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 1: already bad enough that these children are being hospitalized, but

774
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: imagine doing that and saying like, sorry, your parents can't

775
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: like come and see you except for very specific times

776
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: of day. Uh. And you know, I guess they're still

777
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: visiting hours in certain circumstances. But it is not like

778
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: that anymore, and largely due to the fact of the

779
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: work of James Robertson. And it's not just hospitals like

780
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: you think about any refugee crisis or like you know,

781
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: separation of of families at the border, which is something

782
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: that has happened in recent years. And you know, this

783
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: is why people got so upset because like we have

784
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: undeniable proof of like the damage that that does, and

785
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: and like what a rama that is for a child

786
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 1: and of course also for the parents. So it wasn't

787
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: just hospital stuff. It's like splitting up families period, right,

788
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: I mean, like and it does permanent damage too. It

789
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: seems irrevocable or largely irrevocable. Another way that attachment theory

790
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: has really affected society is that it's the it's the

791
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: dominant rationale that forms the basis for how society approaches

792
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: families that have problems and that their kids involved um

793
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: and attachment theory basically says it's better to leave a

794
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: kid in a troubled home and leave the existing attachments

795
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: intact than to remove the kid. If you can support

796
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 1: the troubled home and make it into a better home

797
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: so that everyone involved has less problems and therefore the

798
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: relationship between the caregivers and the kid are better. That

799
00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: that's attachment theory, and it kind of it points out like,

800
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: just what's at steak like attachment theory. If it's not right,

801
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: then we might be doing something wrong by leaving kids

802
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: in troubled homes, right, um, like like kids lives are

803
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: at stake, And then you can extend it even further

804
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: in that attachment theory is how parents raise kids now,

805
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: so the effects of attachment theory are going to be

806
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: felt for generations and generations and generations. So hopefully it

807
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: is right. It seems like it's right. But if if

808
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: we come to find like, no, actually it's really harmful,

809
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: I'll be pretty surprised. But it would be a really

810
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: big deal because of how pervasive that whole thing is

811
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: and how many different parts of society it touches. Yeah,

812
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: for sure. All right, so I guess we should wind

813
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: it up with just a little bit about adult attachment

814
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,760
Speaker 1: styles because this is you know, we've been talking about children,

815
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 1: of course, because they are the ones that you would

816
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,720
Speaker 1: most often think of as far as being attached and bonding,

817
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 1: but uh, this happens into adulthood and uh. One great

818
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: example of several is the classic student mentor relationship, and

819
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: this is sort of the same thing. The whole idea

820
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: behind a student mentor isn't so different than uh, infant

821
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: and parent in that the mentor should allow a student

822
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 1: like a really safe haven to explore and to discover

823
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: the possibilities and to study and provide that like secure

824
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: home base for them. Right. There's also other studies on

825
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: whether UM attachment might be related to your political orientation. Uh,

826
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 1: maybe yes or no. Then there's nothing conclusive religion, whether

827
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 1: you're religious or not. There's a little more evidence for that.

828
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: But the one that really is part of pop culture

829
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: and seems to have some sort of UM validity to

830
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: it is how attachment in infancy translates to attachment in

831
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: adult romantic relationships. That's right, And this is the kind

832
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: of stuff that uh, if you've had trouble and adult

833
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: romantic relationships, hopefully you have therapied this out some because

834
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: nine times out of ten, UM, you can probably dive

835
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: deep enough to find out, Oh, this has a lot

836
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: to do with how I was raised, with how I

837
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: partner up with people Now I hate my mom and dad.

838
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: It turns out that that can be the revelation a

839
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,280
Speaker 1: lot of time. Sadly, so they've they've kind of traced

840
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: like if you're what your attachment style is to what

841
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: you're likely to be like in a relationship. And UM,

842
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: one of them, the resistant ambivalent one, the one where

843
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: you're preoccupied with attachment and you're kind of clingy. That

844
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: translates oftentimes to a person who is emotionally needy and insecure,

845
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 1: maybe jealous, maybe really threatened by anything that might you know,

846
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: come between them and and the their mate. Um. That

847
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: that is what it translates to in an adult relationship.

848
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 1: And again people are really really comple x. You might

849
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: check some of those boxes, you might check some other boxes.

850
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: This is like a general umbrella, but there does seem

851
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,760
Speaker 1: to be a pretty solid correlation between these. What about

852
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: um avoidant so avoidant uh? And this is it all

853
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: kind of makes sense to me. Uh, They they're more

854
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: likely to value freedom later in life. And then also

855
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: on the downside, seek out a relationship that might be

856
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: emotionally distant. Uh. Intimacy maybe a problem and they might

857
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: reject those kind of relationships, right because they've learned that

858
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 1: they can't depend on anybody else, they have to depend

859
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: on themselves, so they don't feel comfortable in intimate relationships.

860
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: And then the uh crime de la creme is secure

861
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: of course, of course, and that means you are way

862
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: more likely to have a really great relationship romantically later

863
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,399
Speaker 1: in life, or maybe a series of them if you're lucky,

864
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: or maybe just one if that's your bag. But the

865
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: point is, players double through that one. The point is

866
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: you're more likely to have really good relationships and you

867
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 1: and you know, feel safe and secure and provide comfort

868
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: to your romantic partner and depend on that comfort from them,

869
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: and be intimate and be open and all the great

870
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 1: things that we strive to be. All of your haircuts

871
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: turn out great, you whistle while your work. Everybody just

872
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: loves you. That's the secure relationship. I just got a

873
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: great haircut. What's great? What's great about this though? Is there?

874
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 1: It's definitely been shown that you can change your attachment

875
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: style as an adult. You can change how you interact

876
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: with your romantic partner as an adult. You're not doomed,

877
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: you're not trapped like this. This stuff can change, but

878
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 1: it takes self reflection and introspection usually, like you said,

879
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: through the hypotherapy, to to be successful at that. Yep, yes, sir,

880
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 1: good stuff, good stuff. You got anything else? I got

881
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,879
Speaker 1: nothing else. Chuck's got nothing else, I got nothing else.

882
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: That means it's time for a listener mail. All right,

883
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this hot off the presses. This is

884
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: sinning like twenty minutes ago, flying by the seat of

885
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 1: our pants here uh and this is You're not gonna

886
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 1: leave this anonymous because I haven't checked back with this person.

887
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,240
Speaker 1: But this is in reference to the Tarot episode. Guys,

888
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,280
Speaker 1: what gives is how it starts? I've loved every episode

889
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: I've listened to, but the terror win was insulting. I

890
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: think you joked that it is was all made up,

891
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 1: and then in all caps, so is everything. Everything is

892
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 1: something made up in someone's head. Shakespeare's made up, baseball

893
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: is made up. Norse mythology is made up. The recipe

894
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 1: for jello salad is made up. The only difference between

895
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,399
Speaker 1: the tero and any other belief is time. Just because

896
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: it isn't ancient doesn't mean that it's less valid. Less

897
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: valid way of looking at the world interesting. I just

898
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 1: I'm chomping at the bit, chuck uh me. Sitting down

899
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,720
Speaker 1: with my cards now to reflect on an inner turmoil

900
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 1: is no different than someone getting on their knees to

901
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: pray about a problem. Maybe you should get into that

902
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 1: and study Christianity in that same attitude, you would have

903
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: a revolt. So this person says, I'm not mad, I'm

904
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 1: just disappointed. Okay from Anonymous. Huh yeah, I'm a check

905
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 1: with this person. They may not want this out there,

906
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: that's fine. I'm with you. I find it a little

907
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: flawed as far as their argument codes. Like, people don't

908
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,879
Speaker 1: sit down with a recipe for jello salad and use

909
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,399
Speaker 1: that to try to predict their future, reflect on what's

910
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 1: going on in their life. The same with baseball. Yeah,

911
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 1: you could kind of compare it to religion or something

912
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: like that, or praying. I agree with that, but I

913
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: think the fact that it didn't exist and then became

914
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: extant to make playing card games a little more interesting

915
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: is kind of a fatal flaw in it. Okay, hold on,

916
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: I'm taking notes. Salad based baseball not in the same

917
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: as Tara. Okay, nice, all right at that? On final

918
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 1: good thank you and thank you too, Anonymous. Sorry we

919
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 1: let you down, But them's the brakes when you're talking

920
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 1: about tarot. That's right. Um. If you want to get

921
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: in touch with this, like Anonymous, did you can? You

922
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: can send us an email to stuff podcast at iHeart

923
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production

924
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,879
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit

925
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen

926
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.