WEBVTT - No Budget Needed w/ Dana Miranda #914 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.320 Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:07.160 and today we're talking no budget Needed with Dana Miranda. 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.000 No budget needed makes me think of like only add water, 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:34.040 or like no milk necessary, Joel, we're eliminating certain elements. 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:35.720 Or no shirts, no shoes, no service. 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:38.120 Like I was almost thinking we should adopt like a 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.680 new sort of honorary name for the podcast just for 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:42.640 this one episode, right, like instead of how to Money, 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:44.720 we should call it like how Not to Money? Since 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:46.840 I think this is going to feel at odds with 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:49.960 what we typically discuss here on the show, because budgeting 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.559 it's almost synonymous with building wealth, with living the kind 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:56.320 of life you want. But our guest today is offering 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:00.880 an alternative to traditional personal finance advice in favor of 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:05.479 empowering and flexible strategies. We're joined by Dana Miranda, author 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:07.959 of the new book You Don't Need a Budget, which 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.200 comes out later this month, and Dana is a certified 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.800 educator in personal finance. She is also a contributor to 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:18.080 the Times, The Penny Hoarder, Motley Full, Just a Ni 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:20.680 a Few and so Dana, we're really looking forward to 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:22.840 our conversation with you today. Thank you for coming on 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:23.440 the podcast. 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:25.440 Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it too. 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:27.680 Of course, glad to have you. First question we ask 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.400 everyone is what do they like to euplore? John. It lets 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.680 us know a little bit about kind of what you're into, 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.039 how you spend your money. But of course, at the 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.319 same time you're saving and investing for your future. But 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.000 what are you slurging on in the meantime. 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.480 Dana, I like to spend money on long term travel. 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:46.640 So I like to travel just take you know, a 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:48.480 couple of days or a week to go to a place. 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.120 But my favorite thing is to go somewhere for like 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.360 two or three months. And I live in Wisconsin and 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:56.640 it gets very cold and dark here in the winter. 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.200 So the last few years I've also been become a snowbird, 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.360 so I like to travel somewhere at least a little 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:05.040 bit warmer and less snowy for a couple of months 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.880 over the winter and stay in an airbnb or some 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.320 kind of short term rental. Very nice and yeah, and 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:13.000 that ends up being pretty pricey. 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:14.760 Also known as slow travel, right. 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:19.359 Sure that sounds, or the slomatic lifestyle. 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:21.200 I've heard some folks refer to it are you Are 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.480 you going domestic? Are you going overseas? 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:23.680 Like? 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:25.160 What's your preference just. 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:27.320 In the US right now? I'd love to do more 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:29.520 overseas travel, but haven't haven't gotten there yet. 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.480 Well, okay, so you mentioned Wisconsin. We were kind of 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.120 chatting about this before we hit record data. But like, 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.520 it's a wholesome state, it's salt of the earth people, 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:39.160 it's a it's a good group of folks out there. 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:41.760 I guess, what did you learn about money being out 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:43.079 there in the Midwest. 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:49.280 The base of my relationship with money, and from what 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.720 I see in the culture around me in the Midwest 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:57.480 is very focused on work. We learned work ethic, which 0:02:57.560 --> 0:02:59.120 what I didn't know at the time is called the 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:03.160 Protestant work ethic, which is really just it's basically your 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:08.200 duty to work, to work hard, to work diligently, and 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:10.080 that's how you earn money. I grew up in a 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:13.760 working class town, so we were not talking about investment 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:15.799 strategies and how to make our money work for us 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:19.600 and turn our money into more money. You just had 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:21.639 You needed money to live, and you needed to work 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:24.000 to earn money, and so that was kind of where 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:29.240 where your worth lies, and all of the kind of 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:32.840 lessons that I learned about money came from that. So 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.320 if I was working hard and earning money, then I 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.720 was allowed to spend money where it was basically the 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.280 extent of the rules that I learned, and just stay 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:44.920 away from debt because you need to earn your money 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:46.720 rather than borrow it. 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.160 So in some ways those sound like reasonable things to 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:53.520 learn and kind of sort of true, right, Like the 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.920 more you work, the more money you end up having. 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:59.240 If you work. Matt and I had recently talked about 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.200 this on a Friday flight. There was a study that 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.600 said that, and I just think this makes sense, right 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:06.720 that if you work more hours than your peers, you're 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:08.440 going to have more money. You're going to be investing 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.480 in your human capital. But that's also not the end 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:13.960 of the story. Did you feel like that you kind 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.040 of got short change in your financial education because it 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:17.760 was too focused on the power of work. 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:24.640 It's really incomplete and not completely accurate either, because work, 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.880 and especially you know, high paying work and work that 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:30.360 you can do for a long time or work as 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:32.680 many hours as you want, is not accessible to a 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:36.400 lot of people. So some people might have to stay 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.520 home to take care of children or family. Some people 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.559 have disabilities that restrict how much they can work, health issues, 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:47.240 chronic health issues. Some people live in areas where there 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.960 just are not a lot of work opportunities. And our 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:55.760 culture of work and money, when it stops and only 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.560 measures your worth based on how much you work and 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.560 how much money you can earn from working, we really 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.400 cut out a lot of those people in those circumstances 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.920 and devalue them quite a bit. And then when we 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:14.200 give financial advice based on that basic premise of spend 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.560 less than you earn, we're also cutting those people out, 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:21.119 because if you're not able to earn enough to pay 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:24.799 for your life, then we really don't have any advice 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:25.200 for you. 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.480 Well, as we're talking about work, I guess maybe let's 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:30.320 spend a second and talk about your career. Because you 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:35.039 started working for a personal finance media startup, and during 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:37.080 that time you were making more money. It sounded like 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.840 you were enjoying your job. But I guess share a 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.240 little bit about that experience as you've I don't know, 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.080 maybe you found yourself in a season of life where 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:46.880 it seemed like it was working out for you. 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.560 That's absolutely right. Yeah, Before I started working in personal 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:53.360 finance media. I was a freelancer for about four or 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.240 five years, a freelance writer, and I was making hardly 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.320 any money. I was just scraping by. I just couldn't 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:02.440 figure out how to really break into that career. It 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:04.640 was also I started in twenty ten, so we were 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:06.360 still kind of making our way out of the recession. 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:08.839 I didn't know that because I had started broke to 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.160 begin with, so I didn't didn't realize how bad the 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:13.640 job market was because I was just getting started. But 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:17.400 in twenty fifteen, I got a full time job working 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:21.080 for this digital media startup that ran a personal finance site, 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:25.120 and I was finally making a full time salary with 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:29.839 benefits and saving for retirement and everything that comes with 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.560 a good full time job, and at the same time 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:37.520 getting this masterclass in managing money because I was writing 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.520 about it for the site. I thought going into it 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:42.159 that it was going to be really boring. I hadn't 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:45.080 had any interest in personal finance before that, but I 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:46.719 liked the idea of the job and the people that 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.920 I would be working with and being a full time writer, 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.800 so I gave it a chance. But I really fell 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.000 in love with it. I really loved what I was 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.000 learning about personal finance and the ability to break down 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.800 really complex topics and make them kind of more accessible 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:05.520 for people financially. I was learning a lot, but I 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.120 don't feel like I went through the same kind of 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.040 journey that a lot of people do when they first 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.400 get into personal finance, which is everything that I'm learning 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:15.520 is helping me to pay down debt and make more 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.400 money and get my finances in order. What I really 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:22.600 benefited from was just making more money, having a much 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.240 more stable income, and access to resources that could help 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.200 me kind of get everything else in order. 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:31.400 So you're writing about these topics and yeah, you're making 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:32.920 more money from doing it, but you didn't feel like 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.640 you were able to or you're actually implementing some of 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:38.160 the things that you're writing about and kind of focused on. 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:40.320 I wasn't a lot of it. Even though it was 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:42.720 fun to write about and to explain a lot of it, 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:47.800 didn't feel like it applied to me all that much. 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.120 We were sharing a lot of really nitty gritty at 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.840 the time. It wasn't a ton of investment advice. Like 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:55.880 I said, We were kind of at the tail end 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.440 of the recession, so it was more about helping people 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.640 kind of make ends meet and stretch the money that 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:04.480 they did have, things like even just credit card points, 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.000 or when to use a credit card when it makes 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:09.480 sense to, you know, have a credit card that has 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.679 an annual fee, like all of these kinds of things. 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.880 It was really interesting for me to learn that stuff. 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:16.800 But I was in a position where I had a 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:18.960 terrible credit score because I had had years of debt 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:21.440 and very little money to be able to dig myself 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.400 out of it, and so I couldn't even qualify for 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:28.840 a credit card. So I was like starting way back 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.360 behind the starting line of what we were advising for people. 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.760 And this was supposed to be kind of the accessible 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.320 version of personal finance that was like kind of the 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:43.600 common folk personal finance that was a response to the 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:47.720 kind of like Moley Fool or even like CNBC where 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:51.200 they were mostly talking about investment and things that seemed 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:52.600 inaccessible to a lot of people. 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:54.839 Is that one of the problems in the personal finance space. 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:56.800 I think, I think you're pointing out something that is 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.240 real here. I think Matt and I maybe like to 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.560 think that at times times, the education we're giving on 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:03.199 how to money is a one on one, but it's 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:05.079 probably not. It's probably a two to oh one or 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:06.640 a twoho two class or something like that. And then 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:08.000 there are things that are three to oh one or 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:10.200 even more advanced. But is it just that we don't 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:16.200 have enough people speaking to the most important things that 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.480 like almost to speaking to people who feel like they're 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:19.800 starting behind the starting line. 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.880 We definitely don't have enough of that, and I think 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.840 sometimes when we do highlight voices that are speaking to 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:31.840 those people, we're still not talking to people who themselves 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:36.280 are in that position where we're often kind of theorizing. 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:38.800 You know, we attempted to do We've attempted to do 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.200 that in various personal finance sites that I've worked for. 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:48.520 Is this idea of taking diversity of you know, diverse 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:53.240 communities and diversity of experience into consideration, but not taking 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:56.840 that too where you'd think would be the natural conclusion, 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.840 which is to speak to people or higher writers to 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:02.880 be able to speak to the actual experience of growing 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:06.760 up in poverty or being exiled from your community because 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:11.040 you're an LGBT person whose parents are no longer going 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.560 to support you in adulthood. Experiences like that, we would 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:16.760 sort of pay lip service to it, but don't hear 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.720 enough from those people to hear what is actually practical 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.760 advice that can help you based on your real circumstances. 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:23.520 Gotcha. 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.240 So you're talking aboutloved experience, and I will say that 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.960 my lived experience was that budgeting helped me tremendously. 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:32.599 Dana, let's talk. I kind of want to get to 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:33.960 the mission I guess of your book. 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:36.920 Yeah, because you say that you and a liberate folks 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.520 from what you call budget culture, and so first of all, 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:43.200 can you define that like what actually like what do 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:44.520 you define as budget culture? 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:49.480 Budget culture is what I call the dominant way that 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.200 we think, teach, and talk about money in our culture. 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.600 It's really similar to what I see in diet culture, 0:10:57.640 --> 0:10:59.320 which people are a lot of times a lot more 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:04.400 familiar with, in that it kind of defaults to restriction 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:10.120 and shame, and we focus on individual responsibility rather than 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.800 accounting for the ways that the systems that we're part 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.240 of impact our financial circumstances. 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:22.920 I think you're right that shame has a big role 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:24.640 in personal finance. So much of the time it has 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.080 traditionally and some of the loudest voices often heap the 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.800 most shame on people who have made mistakes, and so 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.080 they ask for advice and then they're berated for having 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:36.640 done the things they did when they didn't know any better. 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:38.360 You're thinking of a certain guy from Tennessee that let's 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:39.719 do this. I'm not trying to call, so I'm not 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:41.560 pointing figures here in particular. 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:45.559 I'm I think it also happens to be the physically 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:46.520 loudest voice in the room. 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.000 Sure, but I think there are other people this is 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:50.920 this is a constant problem. I think in the personal 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:54.480 finance space that shame is a cudgel that's used against 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.960 people often when they don't have the resources, or the 0:11:58.000 --> 0:11:59.960 tools or the no house. I think you're pointing out 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.760 something important there. Does it have to be the case? Though? 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.760 Can there be a healthy approach to budget culture that 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.199 doesn't involve those things where we kind of don't through 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:09.240 out the baby with the bathwater. 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.760 I think that any way of managing money that works 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:14.840 for you, Like you said that, you feel like your 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.760 journey involved budgeting and that was really important for you. 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.520 I would never tell somebody, First of all, I would 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.480 never say, well, actually that probably didn't help you, Like 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.440 you know, your experience. And I would also never say, like, 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.440 if you're doing it and it feels good for you, 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:35.240 I wouldn't push you away from keeping a budget. I 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.439 definitely wrote the book for people who are constantly being 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.560 told you need a budget and that it has to 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.600 be where you start your money management, and it's just 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.679 not making sense for them. We need that variety of 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:52.120 voices and people need to hear it's okay if the 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.360 majority of the advice that you're hearing doesn't work for you. 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.079 There are other ways to do this, and you can 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.400 listen to what makes sense for you. So I know 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.120 a lot of people who read the book will probably 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.320 still come out of it following a lot of really 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.200 traditional financial advice because it's hard to go against the 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.240 grain with the systems that we're part of. But it's 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.080 important to have that voice in the room that says, 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.520 when something doesn't make sense to you, it's okay to 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:19.360 try something else. 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:22.120 Sure, yeah, maybe there's an alternative path. And I mean 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:24.040 this is I don't have to keep trying to jam 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:25.200 a square peg in a round hole. 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:26.520 And I think that's one of the reasons we were 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.240 most excited to have you on too, because so I 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.160 tend like I'm like that personality type that I literally 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.120 still budget Dana, and I do zero some budgeting, Like 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.480 literally I'm accounting for every single penny and I know 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.679 where every cent is spent. But I'm also maybe a 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:44.400 little what do you call that, adh not adhd ocd 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.920 that's the actress looking for Whereas with. 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:49.640 You, though you're you're a little more like shooting from 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.400 the hit. I'm more free spirited, and I also have 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:55.400 been pretty frugal over time, so I kind of generally 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.000 know where I'm at most of the time. But I 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:00.560 don't pinch pennies, and I don't micromanage where the money goes, 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.000 and I don't say, oh, my grocery spending was twenty 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:04.760 bucks over this month. Guess I got to get that 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.600 in line. I just I don't think about money in 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.960 that way, and as long as I am doing the 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.160 you know, paying myself first and moving in the right 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.000 direction when it comes to building networth, I'm just not 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:15.280 stressing about the details. 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.920 But for you in particular, like you are great at 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.560 like ballparking figures like that is a gift, and I've 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.600 seen you do this, whether it's estimating, I don't even 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:24.720 know what, but like you are the. 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:26.960 Number of jelly beans in a jar map, Yes. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.280 Like literally, it's everything, like anything from that's like physical 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.440 like that, to just kind of ballparking, like how much 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.440 something should cost? Like you are so dang good at 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:35.440 ballparking figures, that's. 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.640 Why should go on the price is right, Oh, that's why. Yeah, 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.560 you grow up watching right with your grandma. Right, Oh, yeah, 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:41.560 I get it. 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:42.920 But there are a lot of folks who don't have 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:44.960 that skill or that gift whatever it is that you 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.200 want to call it. And so Dana, like, how would 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:51.120 you recommend for folks to improve their finances without the framework, 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.440 without the structure that a budget allows you. 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.760 Well, you mentioned the paying yourself first, and I think 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.200 that's a really good approach to kind of manage your 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.800 money in a way that feels safe but also kind 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:12.360 of empowering and affirming and non restrictive. So I lay 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:15.680 out in the book kind of a series of exercises 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:17.520 that I call a money map that can help you 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.760 basically get the lay of the land of your finances 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.840 and understand what the income you have coming in, the 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:28.240 resources you have access to, the financial commitments that you 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:32.000 have to meet every month, and the financial goals that 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:36.000 you want to work towards. And once you know that, 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:40.200 you can take that information and see then what is 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:44.040 essentially left over to spend. If you follow all of 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.520 those kind of steps, if you meet all those commitments, 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.840 and you work toward those goals in a certain way, 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:50.800 you can see what you have left to spend. I 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.880 call that a yes fund, because when you're wondering whether 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.160 or not you can afford to buy something, I want 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.520 the answer to be yes, and so you can then 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.480 turn to your Yes fund. It's inspired by a bank 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:04.280 account that I used to have called a safe to 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:10.200 spend account that no longer exists, unfortunately. But the reason 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.120 that I recommend something like this instead of a budget 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.520 is a budget tends to be a way to plan 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.200 for how you use every dollar a lot of times, 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:25.560 encourages you to track all of your spending and encourages 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:29.200 you to set restrictions on how you spend money. And 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:30.920 so a lot of times the answer is no when 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:33.560 you're wondering if you can spend, and a money map 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.840 is a way to when you're If you're not good 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:41.720 at making those ballpark estimations, you can get it all 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.760 sort of laid out and see what your financial circumstances 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.720 are on paper, in the numbers, so that you can 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.640 really understand if you start to move things around, how 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.000 certain financial decisions and how certain spending decisions are going 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:57.400 to impact other parts of your financial plan. So you 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.680 can see if certain financial moves are going to mean 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.440 you can't pay your rent one month, or if moving 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.840 into a new place that has higher rent, how is 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.600 that going to impact your savings goals or you're spending 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.359 things like that. It just kind of gives you that 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.560 information if you're not able to kind of visualize it yourself. 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.359 Sure, Okay, Yeah, so I like that because what it 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:20.840 sounds like. It sounds like a creative way to solve 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:24.199 problems that are being presented by just not having an 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.159 unlimited bank account, right, and so is a part of 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.679 the Yes Fund getting creative and finding ways to fund 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.800 some of the spending that you are looking to prioritize. 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.639 Yeah, the purpose of it is to not have to 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.399 think about what you're spending so much of where your 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.720 money is going, because you will do the pay yourself 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:47.840 first method by funding your commitments and funding your goals, 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.560 and then the money that you have you can just spend, 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:53.720 So as long as there's money in your account, you 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.440 can spend that money without having to think about how 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:03.000 it's impacting your goals and financial commitments. And for me, 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:06.800 it's just a way of getting money off your mind, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:08.800 which is kind of what I'm always looking for, is 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:10.720 to not have to think about money all the time. 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:13.680 It sounds like a lot of people I think who 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.960 really like budgeting or spend tracking maybe enjoy that more 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:20.280 or feel a little more kind of orderly or in 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.680 control doing that. I just prefer to not think about 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.399 whether or not I can spend money, and so I 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.399 like to set up my finances in a way that 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:29.760 I don't have to worry about that. 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.159 Well, that's so fascinating because, like so the reason I budget, 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:34.920 and this is one of the ways that I think 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.280 I was able to actually vocalize it when my wife 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:39.680 and I when we're dating or engage at the time, 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:40.800 but that we were able to get on the same 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.359 page was that I was able to realize that by budgeting, 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:46.639 that was a way for us to not have to 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.440 think about it because we've sort of siloed it, right, 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.320 like we've quarantined it, and it was in this part 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:55.159 of our brain where we would intentionally proactively talk about it, 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:57.479 but then after that we didn't have to worry about it. 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.560 And so I guess we're arriving at the the same 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.480 solution in two very different ways. 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.120 But but yeah, I could. I guess I could see 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.160 how your approach there also does. 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.479 That by kind of being like, all right, I can 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:11.080 do whatever I want with this money because this is 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:13.120 the yes fund, this is the safe to spend money. 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.520 I don't like there's no second guessing after. In your case, 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:18.520 I guess you're talking about setting that money aside to 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:19.119 build wealth. 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.080 Yeah, And I love that too, that you said you 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.800 sort of siloed it. You created a space to make 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:27.000 financial decisions, and then you could just go about your 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.760 life and not have to constantly be making financial decisions, 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.119 because when you are doing that, you realize that every 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.200 single thing you do throughout the day it has something 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.360 to do with money. Whether you're making decisions about how 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.120 you work, or you're spending money, or even just making 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.359