1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,320
Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,

2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,160
Speaker 1: and today we're talking no budget Needed with Dana Miranda.

3
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,000
Speaker 2: No budget needed makes me think of like only add water,

4
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:34,040
Speaker 2: or like no milk necessary, Joel, we're eliminating certain elements.

5
00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:35,720
Speaker 1: Or no shirts, no shoes, no service.

6
00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,120
Speaker 2: Like I was almost thinking we should adopt like a

7
00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,680
Speaker 2: new sort of honorary name for the podcast just for

8
00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,640
Speaker 2: this one episode, right, like instead of how to Money,

9
00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,720
Speaker 2: we should call it like how Not to Money? Since

10
00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,840
Speaker 2: I think this is going to feel at odds with

11
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,960
Speaker 2: what we typically discuss here on the show, because budgeting

12
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,559
Speaker 2: it's almost synonymous with building wealth, with living the kind

13
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,320
Speaker 2: of life you want. But our guest today is offering

14
00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,880
Speaker 2: an alternative to traditional personal finance advice in favor of

15
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,479
Speaker 2: empowering and flexible strategies. We're joined by Dana Miranda, author

16
00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,959
Speaker 2: of the new book You Don't Need a Budget, which

17
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,200
Speaker 2: comes out later this month, and Dana is a certified

18
00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,800
Speaker 2: educator in personal finance. She is also a contributor to

19
00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,080
Speaker 2: the Times, The Penny Hoarder, Motley Full, Just a Ni

20
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,680
Speaker 2: a Few and so Dana, we're really looking forward to

21
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,840
Speaker 2: our conversation with you today. Thank you for coming on

22
00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:23,440
Speaker 2: the podcast.

23
00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it too.

24
00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,680
Speaker 1: Of course, glad to have you. First question we ask

25
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,400
Speaker 1: everyone is what do they like to euplore? John. It lets

26
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,680
Speaker 1: us know a little bit about kind of what you're into,

27
00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,039
Speaker 1: how you spend your money. But of course, at the

28
00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,319
Speaker 1: same time you're saving and investing for your future. But

29
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,000
Speaker 1: what are you slurging on in the meantime.

30
00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,480
Speaker 3: Dana, I like to spend money on long term travel.

31
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,640
Speaker 3: So I like to travel just take you know, a

32
00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,480
Speaker 3: couple of days or a week to go to a place.

33
00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,120
Speaker 3: But my favorite thing is to go somewhere for like

34
00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,360
Speaker 3: two or three months. And I live in Wisconsin and

35
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,640
Speaker 3: it gets very cold and dark here in the winter.

36
00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,200
Speaker 3: So the last few years I've also been become a snowbird,

37
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,360
Speaker 3: so I like to travel somewhere at least a little

38
00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,040
Speaker 3: bit warmer and less snowy for a couple of months

39
00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,880
Speaker 3: over the winter and stay in an airbnb or some

40
00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,320
Speaker 3: kind of short term rental. Very nice and yeah, and

41
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,000
Speaker 3: that ends up being pretty pricey.

42
00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:14,760
Speaker 1: Also known as slow travel, right.

43
00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,359
Speaker 2: Sure that sounds, or the slomatic lifestyle.

44
00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,200
Speaker 1: I've heard some folks refer to it are you Are

45
00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,480
Speaker 1: you going domestic? Are you going overseas?

46
00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:23,680
Speaker 2: Like?

47
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:25,160
Speaker 1: What's your preference just.

48
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,320
Speaker 3: In the US right now? I'd love to do more

49
00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:29,520
Speaker 3: overseas travel, but haven't haven't gotten there yet.

50
00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 2: Well, okay, so you mentioned Wisconsin. We were kind of

51
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,120
Speaker 2: chatting about this before we hit record data. But like,

52
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,520
Speaker 2: it's a wholesome state, it's salt of the earth people,

53
00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,160
Speaker 2: it's a it's a good group of folks out there.

54
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,760
Speaker 1: I guess, what did you learn about money being out

55
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,079
Speaker 1: there in the Midwest.

56
00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:49,280
Speaker 3: The base of my relationship with money, and from what

57
00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,720
Speaker 3: I see in the culture around me in the Midwest

58
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,480
Speaker 3: is very focused on work. We learned work ethic, which

59
00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,120
Speaker 3: what I didn't know at the time is called the

60
00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,160
Speaker 3: Protestant work ethic, which is really just it's basically your

61
00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:08,200
Speaker 3: duty to work, to work hard, to work diligently, and

62
00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,080
Speaker 3: that's how you earn money. I grew up in a

63
00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,760
Speaker 3: working class town, so we were not talking about investment

64
00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,799
Speaker 3: strategies and how to make our money work for us

65
00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 3: and turn our money into more money. You just had

66
00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,639
Speaker 3: You needed money to live, and you needed to work

67
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,000
Speaker 3: to earn money, and so that was kind of where

68
00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,240
Speaker 3: where your worth lies, and all of the kind of

69
00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,840
Speaker 3: lessons that I learned about money came from that. So

70
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,320
Speaker 3: if I was working hard and earning money, then I

71
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 3: was allowed to spend money where it was basically the

72
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,280
Speaker 3: extent of the rules that I learned, and just stay

73
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,920
Speaker 3: away from debt because you need to earn your money

74
00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 3: rather than borrow it.

75
00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 1: So in some ways those sound like reasonable things to

76
00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,520
Speaker 1: learn and kind of sort of true, right, Like the

77
00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,920
Speaker 1: more you work, the more money you end up having.

78
00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,240
Speaker 1: If you work. Matt and I had recently talked about

79
00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,200
Speaker 1: this on a Friday flight. There was a study that

80
00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,600
Speaker 1: said that, and I just think this makes sense, right

81
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,720
Speaker 1: that if you work more hours than your peers, you're

82
00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:08,440
Speaker 1: going to have more money. You're going to be investing

83
00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 1: in your human capital. But that's also not the end

84
00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,960
Speaker 1: of the story. Did you feel like that you kind

85
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,040
Speaker 1: of got short change in your financial education because it

86
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:17,760
Speaker 1: was too focused on the power of work.

87
00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:24,640
Speaker 3: It's really incomplete and not completely accurate either, because work,

88
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,880
Speaker 3: and especially you know, high paying work and work that

89
00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:30,360
Speaker 3: you can do for a long time or work as

90
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,680
Speaker 3: many hours as you want, is not accessible to a

91
00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,400
Speaker 3: lot of people. So some people might have to stay

92
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,520
Speaker 3: home to take care of children or family. Some people

93
00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,559
Speaker 3: have disabilities that restrict how much they can work, health issues,

94
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,240
Speaker 3: chronic health issues. Some people live in areas where there

95
00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,960
Speaker 3: just are not a lot of work opportunities. And our

96
00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,760
Speaker 3: culture of work and money, when it stops and only

97
00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,560
Speaker 3: measures your worth based on how much you work and

98
00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,560
Speaker 3: how much money you can earn from working, we really

99
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,400
Speaker 3: cut out a lot of those people in those circumstances

100
00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,920
Speaker 3: and devalue them quite a bit. And then when we

101
00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:14,200
Speaker 3: give financial advice based on that basic premise of spend

102
00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,560
Speaker 3: less than you earn, we're also cutting those people out,

103
00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,119
Speaker 3: because if you're not able to earn enough to pay

104
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,799
Speaker 3: for your life, then we really don't have any advice

105
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:25,200
Speaker 3: for you.

106
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,480
Speaker 2: Well, as we're talking about work, I guess maybe let's

107
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,320
Speaker 2: spend a second and talk about your career. Because you

108
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:35,039
Speaker 2: started working for a personal finance media startup, and during

109
00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,080
Speaker 2: that time you were making more money. It sounded like

110
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,840
Speaker 2: you were enjoying your job. But I guess share a

111
00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,240
Speaker 2: little bit about that experience as you've I don't know,

112
00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,080
Speaker 2: maybe you found yourself in a season of life where

113
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:46,880
Speaker 2: it seemed like it was working out for you.

114
00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,560
Speaker 3: That's absolutely right. Yeah, Before I started working in personal

115
00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,360
Speaker 3: finance media. I was a freelancer for about four or

116
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,240
Speaker 3: five years, a freelance writer, and I was making hardly

117
00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,320
Speaker 3: any money. I was just scraping by. I just couldn't

118
00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,440
Speaker 3: figure out how to really break into that career. It

119
00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,640
Speaker 3: was also I started in twenty ten, so we were

120
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,360
Speaker 3: still kind of making our way out of the recession.

121
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,839
Speaker 3: I didn't know that because I had started broke to

122
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,160
Speaker 3: begin with, so I didn't didn't realize how bad the

123
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,640
Speaker 3: job market was because I was just getting started. But

124
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,400
Speaker 3: in twenty fifteen, I got a full time job working

125
00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,080
Speaker 3: for this digital media startup that ran a personal finance site,

126
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,120
Speaker 3: and I was finally making a full time salary with

127
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,839
Speaker 3: benefits and saving for retirement and everything that comes with

128
00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,560
Speaker 3: a good full time job, and at the same time

129
00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,520
Speaker 3: getting this masterclass in managing money because I was writing

130
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,520
Speaker 3: about it for the site. I thought going into it

131
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,159
Speaker 3: that it was going to be really boring. I hadn't

132
00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,080
Speaker 3: had any interest in personal finance before that, but I

133
00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:46,719
Speaker 3: liked the idea of the job and the people that

134
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,920
Speaker 3: I would be working with and being a full time writer,

135
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,800
Speaker 3: so I gave it a chance. But I really fell

136
00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,000
Speaker 3: in love with it. I really loved what I was

137
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,000
Speaker 3: learning about personal finance and the ability to break down

138
00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,800
Speaker 3: really complex topics and make them kind of more accessible

139
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,520
Speaker 3: for people financially. I was learning a lot, but I

140
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,120
Speaker 3: don't feel like I went through the same kind of

141
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,040
Speaker 3: journey that a lot of people do when they first

142
00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 3: get into personal finance, which is everything that I'm learning

143
00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,520
Speaker 3: is helping me to pay down debt and make more

144
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,400
Speaker 3: money and get my finances in order. What I really

145
00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,600
Speaker 3: benefited from was just making more money, having a much

146
00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,240
Speaker 3: more stable income, and access to resources that could help

147
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 3: me kind of get everything else in order.

148
00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,400
Speaker 1: So you're writing about these topics and yeah, you're making

149
00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:32,920
Speaker 1: more money from doing it, but you didn't feel like

150
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,640
Speaker 1: you were able to or you're actually implementing some of

151
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,160
Speaker 1: the things that you're writing about and kind of focused on.

152
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,320
Speaker 3: I wasn't a lot of it. Even though it was

153
00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,720
Speaker 3: fun to write about and to explain a lot of it,

154
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:47,800
Speaker 3: didn't feel like it applied to me all that much.

155
00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,120
Speaker 3: We were sharing a lot of really nitty gritty at

156
00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,840
Speaker 3: the time. It wasn't a ton of investment advice. Like

157
00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,880
Speaker 3: I said, We were kind of at the tail end

158
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,440
Speaker 3: of the recession, so it was more about helping people

159
00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,640
Speaker 3: kind of make ends meet and stretch the money that

160
00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,480
Speaker 3: they did have, things like even just credit card points,

161
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,000
Speaker 3: or when to use a credit card when it makes

162
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 3: sense to, you know, have a credit card that has

163
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,679
Speaker 3: an annual fee, like all of these kinds of things.

164
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,880
Speaker 3: It was really interesting for me to learn that stuff.

165
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,800
Speaker 3: But I was in a position where I had a

166
00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:18,960
Speaker 3: terrible credit score because I had had years of debt

167
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,440
Speaker 3: and very little money to be able to dig myself

168
00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 3: out of it, and so I couldn't even qualify for

169
00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,840
Speaker 3: a credit card. So I was like starting way back

170
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,360
Speaker 3: behind the starting line of what we were advising for people.

171
00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,760
Speaker 3: And this was supposed to be kind of the accessible

172
00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,320
Speaker 3: version of personal finance that was like kind of the

173
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:43,600
Speaker 3: common folk personal finance that was a response to the

174
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,720
Speaker 3: kind of like Moley Fool or even like CNBC where

175
00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,200
Speaker 3: they were mostly talking about investment and things that seemed

176
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:52,600
Speaker 3: inaccessible to a lot of people.

177
00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:54,839
Speaker 1: Is that one of the problems in the personal finance space.

178
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,800
Speaker 1: I think, I think you're pointing out something that is

179
00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,240
Speaker 1: real here. I think Matt and I maybe like to

180
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,560
Speaker 1: think that at times times, the education we're giving on

181
00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,199
Speaker 1: how to money is a one on one, but it's

182
00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,079
Speaker 1: probably not. It's probably a two to oh one or

183
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:06,640
Speaker 1: a twoho two class or something like that. And then

184
00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:08,000
Speaker 1: there are things that are three to oh one or

185
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,200
Speaker 1: even more advanced. But is it just that we don't

186
00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:16,200
Speaker 1: have enough people speaking to the most important things that

187
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,480
Speaker 1: like almost to speaking to people who feel like they're

188
00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:19,800
Speaker 1: starting behind the starting line.

189
00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,880
Speaker 3: We definitely don't have enough of that, and I think

190
00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,840
Speaker 3: sometimes when we do highlight voices that are speaking to

191
00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,840
Speaker 3: those people, we're still not talking to people who themselves

192
00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,280
Speaker 3: are in that position where we're often kind of theorizing.

193
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:38,800
Speaker 3: You know, we attempted to do We've attempted to do

194
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,200
Speaker 3: that in various personal finance sites that I've worked for.

195
00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:48,520
Speaker 3: Is this idea of taking diversity of you know, diverse

196
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,240
Speaker 3: communities and diversity of experience into consideration, but not taking

197
00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,840
Speaker 3: that too where you'd think would be the natural conclusion,

198
00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,840
Speaker 3: which is to speak to people or higher writers to

199
00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,880
Speaker 3: be able to speak to the actual experience of growing

200
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,760
Speaker 3: up in poverty or being exiled from your community because

201
00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,040
Speaker 3: you're an LGBT person whose parents are no longer going

202
00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,560
Speaker 3: to support you in adulthood. Experiences like that, we would

203
00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,760
Speaker 3: sort of pay lip service to it, but don't hear

204
00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,720
Speaker 3: enough from those people to hear what is actually practical

205
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,760
Speaker 3: advice that can help you based on your real circumstances.

206
00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:23,520
Speaker 1: Gotcha.

207
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 2: So you're talking aboutloved experience, and I will say that

208
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,960
Speaker 2: my lived experience was that budgeting helped me tremendously.

209
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,599
Speaker 1: Dana, let's talk. I kind of want to get to

210
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:33,960
Speaker 1: the mission I guess of your book.

211
00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you say that you and a liberate folks

212
00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,520
Speaker 2: from what you call budget culture, and so first of all,

213
00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,200
Speaker 2: can you define that like what actually like what do

214
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:44,520
Speaker 2: you define as budget culture?

215
00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:49,480
Speaker 3: Budget culture is what I call the dominant way that

216
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,200
Speaker 3: we think, teach, and talk about money in our culture.

217
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,600
Speaker 3: It's really similar to what I see in diet culture,

218
00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,320
Speaker 3: which people are a lot of times a lot more

219
00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:04,400
Speaker 3: familiar with, in that it kind of defaults to restriction

220
00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:10,120
Speaker 3: and shame, and we focus on individual responsibility rather than

221
00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,800
Speaker 3: accounting for the ways that the systems that we're part

222
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,240
Speaker 3: of impact our financial circumstances.

223
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,920
Speaker 1: I think you're right that shame has a big role

224
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,640
Speaker 1: in personal finance. So much of the time it has

225
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,080
Speaker 1: traditionally and some of the loudest voices often heap the

226
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,800
Speaker 1: most shame on people who have made mistakes, and so

227
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,080
Speaker 1: they ask for advice and then they're berated for having

228
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:36,640
Speaker 1: done the things they did when they didn't know any better.

229
00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,360
Speaker 1: You're thinking of a certain guy from Tennessee that let's

230
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:39,719
Speaker 1: do this. I'm not trying to call, so I'm not

231
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,560
Speaker 1: pointing figures here in particular.

232
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,559
Speaker 2: I'm I think it also happens to be the physically

233
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:46,520
Speaker 2: loudest voice in the room.

234
00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,000
Speaker 1: Sure, but I think there are other people this is

235
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:50,920
Speaker 1: this is a constant problem. I think in the personal

236
00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,480
Speaker 1: finance space that shame is a cudgel that's used against

237
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,960
Speaker 1: people often when they don't have the resources, or the

238
00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,960
Speaker 1: tools or the no house. I think you're pointing out

239
00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 1: something important there. Does it have to be the case? Though?

240
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,760
Speaker 1: Can there be a healthy approach to budget culture that

241
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,199
Speaker 1: doesn't involve those things where we kind of don't through

242
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:09,240
Speaker 1: out the baby with the bathwater.

243
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,760
Speaker 3: I think that any way of managing money that works

244
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,840
Speaker 3: for you, Like you said that, you feel like your

245
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,760
Speaker 3: journey involved budgeting and that was really important for you.

246
00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,520
Speaker 3: I would never tell somebody, First of all, I would

247
00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,480
Speaker 3: never say, well, actually that probably didn't help you, Like

248
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 3: you know, your experience. And I would also never say, like,

249
00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,440
Speaker 3: if you're doing it and it feels good for you,

250
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,240
Speaker 3: I wouldn't push you away from keeping a budget. I

251
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,439
Speaker 3: definitely wrote the book for people who are constantly being

252
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,560
Speaker 3: told you need a budget and that it has to

253
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,600
Speaker 3: be where you start your money management, and it's just

254
00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,679
Speaker 3: not making sense for them. We need that variety of

255
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,120
Speaker 3: voices and people need to hear it's okay if the

256
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 3: majority of the advice that you're hearing doesn't work for you.

257
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,079
Speaker 3: There are other ways to do this, and you can

258
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 3: listen to what makes sense for you. So I know

259
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,120
Speaker 3: a lot of people who read the book will probably

260
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,320
Speaker 3: still come out of it following a lot of really

261
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,200
Speaker 3: traditional financial advice because it's hard to go against the

262
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,240
Speaker 3: grain with the systems that we're part of. But it's

263
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,080
Speaker 3: important to have that voice in the room that says,

264
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 3: when something doesn't make sense to you, it's okay to

265
00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:19,360
Speaker 3: try something else.

266
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,120
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, maybe there's an alternative path. And I mean

267
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,040
Speaker 1: this is I don't have to keep trying to jam

268
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:25,200
Speaker 1: a square peg in a round hole.

269
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:26,520
Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the reasons we were

270
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,240
Speaker 2: most excited to have you on too, because so I

271
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,160
Speaker 2: tend like I'm like that personality type that I literally

272
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 2: still budget Dana, and I do zero some budgeting, Like

273
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,480
Speaker 2: literally I'm accounting for every single penny and I know

274
00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,679
Speaker 2: where every cent is spent. But I'm also maybe a

275
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,400
Speaker 2: little what do you call that, adh not adhd ocd

276
00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,920
Speaker 2: that's the actress looking for Whereas with.

277
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,640
Speaker 1: You, though you're you're a little more like shooting from

278
00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,400
Speaker 1: the hit. I'm more free spirited, and I also have

279
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,400
Speaker 1: been pretty frugal over time, so I kind of generally

280
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,000
Speaker 1: know where I'm at most of the time. But I

281
00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,560
Speaker 1: don't pinch pennies, and I don't micromanage where the money goes,

282
00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,000
Speaker 1: and I don't say, oh, my grocery spending was twenty

283
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,760
Speaker 1: bucks over this month. Guess I got to get that

284
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,600
Speaker 1: in line. I just I don't think about money in

285
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,960
Speaker 1: that way, and as long as I am doing the

286
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,160
Speaker 1: you know, paying myself first and moving in the right

287
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,000
Speaker 1: direction when it comes to building networth, I'm just not

288
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:15,280
Speaker 1: stressing about the details.

289
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,920
Speaker 2: But for you in particular, like you are great at

290
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,560
Speaker 2: like ballparking figures like that is a gift, and I've

291
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,600
Speaker 2: seen you do this, whether it's estimating, I don't even

292
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:24,720
Speaker 2: know what, but like you are the.

293
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:26,960
Speaker 1: Number of jelly beans in a jar map, Yes.

294
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,280
Speaker 2: Like literally, it's everything, like anything from that's like physical

295
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,440
Speaker 2: like that, to just kind of ballparking, like how much

296
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,440
Speaker 2: something should cost? Like you are so dang good at

297
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 2: ballparking figures, that's.

298
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,640
Speaker 1: Why should go on the price is right, Oh, that's why. Yeah,

299
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,560
Speaker 1: you grow up watching right with your grandma. Right, Oh, yeah,

300
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 1: I get it.

301
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:42,920
Speaker 2: But there are a lot of folks who don't have

302
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:44,960
Speaker 2: that skill or that gift whatever it is that you

303
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,200
Speaker 2: want to call it. And so Dana, like, how would

304
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 2: you recommend for folks to improve their finances without the framework,

305
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 2: without the structure that a budget allows you.

306
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,760
Speaker 3: Well, you mentioned the paying yourself first, and I think

307
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,200
Speaker 3: that's a really good approach to kind of manage your

308
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 3: money in a way that feels safe but also kind

309
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:12,360
Speaker 3: of empowering and affirming and non restrictive. So I lay

310
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,680
Speaker 3: out in the book kind of a series of exercises

311
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,520
Speaker 3: that I call a money map that can help you

312
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,760
Speaker 3: basically get the lay of the land of your finances

313
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,840
Speaker 3: and understand what the income you have coming in, the

314
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,240
Speaker 3: resources you have access to, the financial commitments that you

315
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 3: have to meet every month, and the financial goals that

316
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,000
Speaker 3: you want to work towards. And once you know that,

317
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,200
Speaker 3: you can take that information and see then what is

318
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,040
Speaker 3: essentially left over to spend. If you follow all of

319
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,520
Speaker 3: those kind of steps, if you meet all those commitments,

320
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,840
Speaker 3: and you work toward those goals in a certain way,

321
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,800
Speaker 3: you can see what you have left to spend. I

322
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,880
Speaker 3: call that a yes fund, because when you're wondering whether

323
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,160
Speaker 3: or not you can afford to buy something, I want

324
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 3: the answer to be yes, and so you can then

325
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 3: turn to your Yes fund. It's inspired by a bank

326
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,280
Speaker 3: account that I used to have called a safe to

327
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 3: spend account that no longer exists, unfortunately. But the reason

328
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,120
Speaker 3: that I recommend something like this instead of a budget

329
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,520
Speaker 3: is a budget tends to be a way to plan

330
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,200
Speaker 3: for how you use every dollar a lot of times,

331
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:25,560
Speaker 3: encourages you to track all of your spending and encourages

332
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,200
Speaker 3: you to set restrictions on how you spend money. And

333
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,920
Speaker 3: so a lot of times the answer is no when

334
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,560
Speaker 3: you're wondering if you can spend, and a money map

335
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,840
Speaker 3: is a way to when you're If you're not good

336
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,720
Speaker 3: at making those ballpark estimations, you can get it all

337
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,760
Speaker 3: sort of laid out and see what your financial circumstances

338
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,720
Speaker 3: are on paper, in the numbers, so that you can

339
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,640
Speaker 3: really understand if you start to move things around, how

340
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,000
Speaker 3: certain financial decisions and how certain spending decisions are going

341
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 3: to impact other parts of your financial plan. So you

342
00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,680
Speaker 3: can see if certain financial moves are going to mean

343
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,440
Speaker 3: you can't pay your rent one month, or if moving

344
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,840
Speaker 3: into a new place that has higher rent, how is

345
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,600
Speaker 3: that going to impact your savings goals or you're spending

346
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,359
Speaker 3: things like that. It just kind of gives you that

347
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,560
Speaker 3: information if you're not able to kind of visualize it yourself.

348
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 2: Sure, Okay, Yeah, so I like that because what it

349
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,840
Speaker 2: sounds like. It sounds like a creative way to solve

350
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,199
Speaker 2: problems that are being presented by just not having an

351
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,159
Speaker 2: unlimited bank account, right, and so is a part of

352
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,679
Speaker 2: the Yes Fund getting creative and finding ways to fund

353
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,800
Speaker 2: some of the spending that you are looking to prioritize.

354
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, the purpose of it is to not have to

355
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,399
Speaker 3: think about what you're spending so much of where your

356
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,720
Speaker 3: money is going, because you will do the pay yourself

357
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 3: first method by funding your commitments and funding your goals,

358
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,560
Speaker 3: and then the money that you have you can just spend,

359
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,720
Speaker 3: So as long as there's money in your account, you

360
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,440
Speaker 3: can spend that money without having to think about how

361
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:03,000
Speaker 3: it's impacting your goals and financial commitments. And for me,

362
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,800
Speaker 3: it's just a way of getting money off your mind,

363
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 3: which is kind of what I'm always looking for, is

364
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:10,720
Speaker 3: to not have to think about money all the time.

365
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,680
Speaker 3: It sounds like a lot of people I think who

366
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,960
Speaker 3: really like budgeting or spend tracking maybe enjoy that more

367
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,280
Speaker 3: or feel a little more kind of orderly or in

368
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,680
Speaker 3: control doing that. I just prefer to not think about

369
00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,399
Speaker 3: whether or not I can spend money, and so I

370
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,399
Speaker 3: like to set up my finances in a way that

371
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:29,760
Speaker 3: I don't have to worry about that.

372
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,159
Speaker 2: Well, that's so fascinating because, like so the reason I budget,

373
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:34,920
Speaker 2: and this is one of the ways that I think

374
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,280
Speaker 2: I was able to actually vocalize it when my wife

375
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,680
Speaker 2: and I when we're dating or engage at the time,

376
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 2: but that we were able to get on the same

377
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,359
Speaker 2: page was that I was able to realize that by budgeting,

378
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,639
Speaker 2: that was a way for us to not have to

379
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,440
Speaker 2: think about it because we've sort of siloed it, right,

380
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 2: like we've quarantined it, and it was in this part

381
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:55,159
Speaker 2: of our brain where we would intentionally proactively talk about it,

382
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,479
Speaker 2: but then after that we didn't have to worry about it.

383
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,560
Speaker 2: And so I guess we're arriving at the the same

384
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,480
Speaker 2: solution in two very different ways.

385
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,120
Speaker 1: But but yeah, I could. I guess I could see

386
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,160
Speaker 1: how your approach there also does.

387
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,479
Speaker 2: That by kind of being like, all right, I can

388
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,080
Speaker 2: do whatever I want with this money because this is

389
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,120
Speaker 2: the yes fund, this is the safe to spend money.

390
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 2: I don't like there's no second guessing after. In your case,

391
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,520
Speaker 2: I guess you're talking about setting that money aside to

392
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:19,119
Speaker 2: build wealth.

393
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I love that too, that you said you

394
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 3: sort of siloed it. You created a space to make

395
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,000
Speaker 3: financial decisions, and then you could just go about your

396
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 3: life and not have to constantly be making financial decisions,

397
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,119
Speaker 3: because when you are doing that, you realize that every

398
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,200
Speaker 3: single thing you do throughout the day it has something

399
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,360
Speaker 3: to do with money. Whether you're making decisions about how

400
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,120
Speaker 3: you work, or you're spending money, or even just making

401
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,359
Speaker 3: decisions about how to spend your free time or even

402
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 3: just having free time, there's always this thing in the

403
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:48,879
Speaker 3: back of your mind that's like, I could be more

404
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,399
Speaker 3: productive right now, you're never not thinking about money. So

405
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 3: anything that works for you and your family to set

406
00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 3: that burden aside, I'm all for ye.

407
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 1: You're in that you have that some of that free

408
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,400
Speaker 1: time and you say maybe I should go do this thing.

409
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 1: Oh wait that costs money. Should I spend money? Or

410
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 1: should do something you know that less expensive with my

411
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 1: free time? Like going? I like those are the kinds

412
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 1: of I think decisions. We're like, I don't know that

413
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 1: confront us all the time as just humans living this life.

414
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 1: Or We've got more that we want to get to

415
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,480
Speaker 1: with you, Dana and including we want to talk about

416
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 1: budgeting non budgeting tips that you have in the money space.

417
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 1: We'll get to some more discussion with data writing for this.

418
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 1: All right, we are back.

419
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,199
Speaker 2: From the break talking with Dana Miranda and why no

420
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 2: budget is necessary. And Dana, let's talk about a few

421
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 2: lines of attack some of the different chapters in your

422
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 2: book that would be considered I would say heresy most

423
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 2: of the personal finance, Well, you write that you don't

424
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:56,679
Speaker 2: have to earn your living?

425
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 1: Can you explain what you mean by that?

426
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 3: So is going off of what I was talking about

427
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 3: earlier with work ethic when you really break it down,

428
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 3: when you break down the idea that when we talk

429
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:15,159
Speaker 3: about earning a living, it is suggesting that you have

430
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,400
Speaker 3: to do something to be worthy of having a life,

431
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 3: of having shelter and food and comfort and healthcare and

432
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 3: the things that keep you alive. It's kind of an

433
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,680
Speaker 3: absurd concept if you really think about it, and it's

434
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 3: the way that our economic system is set up under capitalism,

435
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:39,439
Speaker 3: that resources exist separate from us, and we have to

436
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 3: do something to be able to purchase those resources and

437
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,479
Speaker 3: have access to them. So the idea that you have

438
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 3: to earn a living, I really want to push back

439
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 3: against and break that down again because that's not accessible

440
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 3: to a lot of people. And we have to separate

441
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,640
Speaker 3: our personal worth and the way that we value other

442
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 3: people from the work that they do, especially the work

443
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,439
Speaker 3: that they do to earn money, so that we're not

444
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 3: devaluing people who are unable to work or choose not

445
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 3: to work outside of the home for any reason.

446
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I totally get what you're pointing out here.

447
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 1: It also just I'm thinking for some reason about hunter

448
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: gatherer societies or early agricultural societies and how just to

449
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: stay alive life was work in a lot of ways.

450
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: So do you think I guess in my mind, work

451
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,360
Speaker 1: and human existence are inextricably tied together. Do you think

452
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 1: that that shouldn't be the case in modern society.

453
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 3: There's definitely a difference between the work that it takes

454
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 3: to kind of live a life and you know, maybe

455
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 3: keep yourself fed or safe for whatever. When you're talking

456
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 3: hunter gatherer societies and working to earn money. So when

457
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 3: you're working a job to earn money to buy those things,

458
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 3: you're essentially having to prove to probably a corporation or

459
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 3: some kind of company that is holding all the wealth.

460
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,679
Speaker 3: You're having to give them some of your time and

461
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 3: skills and energy in order to get just a little

462
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,479
Speaker 3: bit of that wealth in order to be able to

463
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 3: buy the things that those companies are selling. And so

464
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 3: it becomes this kind of weird cycle of just needing

465
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 3: to work for a living. So I think the you know,

466
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 3: the idea of the Protestant work ethic that I mentioned

467
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 3: is newly named thing, but it's kind of an ancient

468
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 3: idea and it probably makes more sense when you're in

469
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 3: a society where people are just taking care of their

470
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 3: families and communities and themselves day to day and that's

471
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 3: the work you're doing. Certainly as a human or any animal.

472
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 3: You can't just get through life literally not doing anything,

473
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 3: you know, getting up and moving. But most of us

474
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 3: wouldn't want to either. But the difference comes when there's

475
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 3: that line of like you have to work to earn

476
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,959
Speaker 3: money to buy that life, and that that option is

477
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 3: restricted from a lot of people in various ways.

478
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,479
Speaker 2: Well, I like that you said that it's not that

479
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 2: we should not have to do anything, because I think

480
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: somewhere some of your booky you wrote that money should

481
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 2: be easy and even you know, kind of going back

482
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 2: to whether it's we're talking about work ethic or even

483
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 2: when it comes to budgeting, And I mean, I think

484
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 2: it's great to look at some of the different If

485
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: you have a current model that's laid out before you

486
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 2: and it's not working, certainly consider something different. But like,

487
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 2: if I think to anything in my life that I

488
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: was proud of, it oftentimes took a whole lot of work.

489
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 2: Even as a kid, I can think back to like

490
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 2: coming across some cheat codes on this video game and

491
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: you'd enter in the cheat codes and all of a

492
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 2: sudden you got I don't know ninety nine lives or.

493
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: Something like that. There was no like satisfaction there's and

494
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if beating the game isn't nearly as fulfilling.

495
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 2: As opposed to like having slogged through with your friends

496
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 2: over the course of weeks and months. I guess what

497
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 2: are your thoughts there, just as far as the and

498
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: maybe this is a part of that Protestant work ethic,

499
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 2: but like I would say, an inherent goodness that comes

500
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: from the sort of struggle where we are required to

501
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 2: sweat and you know, sacrifice as well, Like that's a

502
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 2: massive part of being able to achieve different goals, and

503
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 2: there isn't the same kind of satisfaction in my view

504
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 2: when you bypass that.

505
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think you have to think about what the

506
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 3: purpose is. You know. The video game example is a

507
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 3: really good example of kind of how we approach money

508
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 3: in our culture too, because when you use cheat codes

509
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 3: and you just basically skip ahead, you're considering the purpose

510
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: to be beating the game or beating what's the thing

511
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 3: at the end.

512
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: Called the ultimate boss, beating.

513
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 3: The boss at the end. But that's not really the

514
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 3: purpose of playing video games. The purpose is to you know,

515
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 3: have fun with your friends, or spend the time strategizing

516
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 3: or discovering things in the world of the video game.

517
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 3: If everyone can just jump to the end, then there's

518
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 3: really no reason to have the game. There are other

519
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 3: ways to do that. So I think a lot of

520
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 3: times we approach money in that same way of like,

521
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 3: all we want to do is a mass wealth and

522
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 3: a mass the most wealth and hold on to it

523
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 3: as much as we can. But that's really skipping to

524
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 3: the end. The point of having money is to be

525
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 3: able to live the lives that we want, and if

526
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 3: we're not doing that, then we're really missing out.

527
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're poking a finger in the eye

528
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: of the Fire movement there a little bit, which, oh yeah,

529
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: I'm kind of I'm with you on, like, oh yeah,

530
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: I think there is that sort of element let me

531
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: gather as much under my wings as I can, and

532
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: often without the thought process for what a life well

533
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: lived looks like. And not that every one of the

534
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: Fire movements like that, not at all. We've had a

535
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: lot of friends who ascribe to that, and there's some

536
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: wisdom I'm gleaned from that movement. But I think, yeah,

537
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: you're right, Like, what's it all for is an important

538
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: question to ask along the way.

539
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 3: There's a ton of variety in the Fire movement, and

540
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 3: I think the conversations there are really interesting. It certainly

541
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 3: started with that idea of just make as much money

542
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 3: as possible with as many sacrifices as you can handle. Yeah,

543
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 3: and then sort of branched off where a lot of

544
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 3: people I think, started to see this idea of financial

545
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 3: independence sounds really great, so that they don't have to

546
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: work for a living, which is a great concept. But

547
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 3: then they thought, but I don't want it to be

548
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 3: at the expense of my life for five or ten years.

549
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 3: I don't want that to be the only thing I'm

550
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 3: thinking about. And so then we have Slow Fire and

551
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 3: other movements that have come along to kind of expand

552
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 3: that idea, and I think it's bringing up really interesting

553
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: things in the way that we relate to money and work.

554
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: I agree. I think, yeah, the healthiest part of the

555
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: Fire movement has brought up in the past five years,

556
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: and it's been around those kinds of conversations and it's

557
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: created different paths towards financial independence and a little less

558
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: of an adversarial relationship to work. I think maybe that

559
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: was at the beginning that was kind of the moniker,

560
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: but that's changed. I want to ask you about debt.

561
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: There are a couple of things that you write about

562
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: that I think also would be kind of if it

563
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: was a personal finance textbook, they'd be like, sorry, I

564
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: don't know if we can include that. Right. You talk

565
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: about leveraging debt to improve your financial situation, but can't

566
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: take me on more debt create more money problems for

567
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: people down the road. How do you think about the

568
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: role of debt in people's lives.

569
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah. I talk about debt products as a resource

570
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 3: that's available to you right in line. Like when I

571
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 3: talk about making a money map. There's a column for

572
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 3: your income, there's a column for your assets, column for

573
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 3: community resources you have access to, and there's a column

574
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 3: for debt resources, so credit and loans that you could

575
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 3: tap into. And I think it's really important to see

576
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 3: debt that way, because if we just approach debt with fear,

577
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 3: we could be restricting a lot of times the resources

578
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: that we have access to, especially if we're not able

579
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,479
Speaker 3: to or for some reason don't want to expand what

580
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 3: we can earn in income using debt. It can help

581
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 3: you live the life that you want to live, or

582
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 3: access things that you need that you might not otherwise

583
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: be able to. And we know that we talk about

584
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 3: it with businesses a lot leveraging debt. Almost every business

585
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 3: is based on some kind of debt that they're leveraging

586
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 3: and they're just kind of managing it. Business businesses as

587
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 3: an entity or business owners don't tend to have this

588
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: idea of needing to get out of debt as quickly

589
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: as possible. It's just kind of one of the resources

590
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 3: available to them. And we don't extend that same grace

591
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 3: a lot of times to individuals, especially working class or

592
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 3: middle class individuals, but we do tend to extend it

593
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 3: to like really wealthy individuals a lot of times. But

594
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 3: we could kind of use it in the same way.

595
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: Why do you think that is?

596
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: That's actually I think that's an interesting point that you

597
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: bring up the fact that, I mean everything that you

598
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: just said, the differences between an institution or a business

599
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: and their ability to take on debt, and it just

600
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 2: hanging out as opposed to how it is that we

601
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: as individuals approach our debt typically. Is it because our

602
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: finances are simpler? I'm curious if you have a theory

603
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: as to why it's more acceptable for businesses as opposed

604
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: to individuals.

605
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 3: I think it's kind of a broad systemic thing. So

606
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 3: when we look at sort of the way that our

607
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: financial systems and our sort of society and culture in

608
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: general are organized, it's really to favor people who are

609
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 3: already wealthy, individuals who are already wealthy, and to favor

610
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 3: businesses amassing more wealth, and so we give them the

611
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 3: tools to do that. And all of our financial products

612
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: and services are crafted through legislation that we create and regulation,

613
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: and so those entities are able to appeal to the

614
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 3: people creating those regulations that can kind of shape and

615
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 3: craft those products, and individuals don't have that same kind

616
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 3: of leverage a lot of times to influence that regulation

617
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 3: and legislation. And there's also in that sort of system

618
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 3: where we want to just where wealth is kind of

619
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 3: a mass in a very small sort of portion of

620
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 3: our culture, it doesn't benefit that system to have a

621
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 3: lot of individuals be able to tap into a lot

622
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 3: of resources, because that kind of has to go one

623
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 3: direction in order for those financial institutions to make money

624
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 3: off of us borrowing from them. If we were able

625
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 3: to borrow just as easily. The system wouldn't work in

626
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 3: the same way. So I think it's kind of a

627
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 3: broad sort of critique of our financial systems and of

628
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 3: capitalism that is a little bit beyond kind of what

629
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 3: I get into as a personal finance educator. But when

630
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 3: you're thinking about why do we have that distinction, I

631
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 3: think it's important to kind of ask those systemic questions.

632
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: Another thing you say at one point in the book,

633
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: you say, you don't have to pay all your bills,

634
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: and that would be like a personal finance one on

635
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: one course. It would be like, pay your bills on

636
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: time every single month would be the advice given. Why

637
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: why do you maybe think that's not quite on point?

638
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, And my editor really pushed me because I originally

639
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 3: said you don't have to pay your bills, and she said,

640
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: maybe just you don't have to pay all of your bills.

641
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 3: She's oftened it a little, which is probably a good idea.

642
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 3: The idea is less that you can just let your

643
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: bills pile up and become overdue, and more of looking

644
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 3: at your kind of living expenses, which we often think

645
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 3: about as fixed expenses, looking at them as more changeable

646
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 3: and considering them as financial commitments that you've made, So

647
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 3: you have to actively make a commitment, which means you

648
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 3: can also choose actively to uncommit from something. So I

649
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 3: mentioned earlier, you know, thinking about how the amount of

650
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 3: money you're putting toward housing in rent or mortgage or

651
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: something impacts the other things that you're doing in life.

652
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 3: So if you're living somewhere and regularly paying really high rent,

653
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: that is impacting your ability to save for something in

654
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 3: the future, or it's impacting your ability to spend day

655
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 3: to day in the way that you want to. You

656
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 3: don't have to feel like you're just stuck with that expense.

657
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 3: You can get creative. And I share a story in

658
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 3: the book about a couple who was living in LA

659
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 3: with really high rent and they wanted to make a

660
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 3: change in the way that they were working. So their

661
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: income was going to be cut way down, and in

662
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 3: order to accommodate that, they ended the lease early on

663
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 3: their LA apartment and they bought an airstream and moved

664
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 3: into that and now are years later, are still living

665
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 3: in an RV and traveling around the country, so they

666
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: have much lower cost of living to be able to

667
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 3: accommodate that. So that's a big, extreme kind of lifestyle change.

668
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 3: But I want to encourage people to look at financial

669
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 3: commitments and think about what kinds of commitments can you

670
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 3: cut if you need to, and also sometimes what can

671
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 3: go overdo? What can be left to sit or pile

672
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 3: up or whatever, and what are the consequences if you

673
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 3: let that happen, and can you live with those consequences?

674
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 1: Like some bills are more important than others, the mortgage

675
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: more important than the credit card payment. Yeah.

676
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 2: Well, and as you are explaining to this, Dana, what

677
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 2: I'm hearing you say too is that, like we have

678
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 2: more agency and control over our finances as individuals than

679
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: maybe your chapter headings would make you think that you believe,

680
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: which is honestly refreshing, right, Like the ability for us

681
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: as individuals to choose, you know what, I.

682
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: Don't giving up the expensive apartment.

683
00:34:58,440 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 2: I don't want to live here anymore because this is

684
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 2: an important to me anymore. Like to me, like, that's

685
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: the empowering message that I can totally get behind. And

686
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 2: so I guess in a similar vein one of your

687
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 2: chapter headings talks about not needing investment accounts, is there

688
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: like a silver ligning that's gonna make Joel and Matt

689
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: happy about it, all right, talking about that one.

690
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 3: Make So the stance that I come into that conversation

691
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 3: with is that investing is by necessity an ethical dilemma,

692
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 3: depending on where your values stand. But where my value

693
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 3: stand is that in order to make money from investments,

694
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 3: the underlying companies have to make a profit, and in

695
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 3: order to make a profit, they need to exploit something

696
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 3: in the equation. So there are exploiting people for labor,

697
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 3: they're exploiting environmental resources, they're exploiting consumers with unfair pricing,

698
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 3: things like that, and that's how we make money from investing.

699
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 3: And so just sort of that underlying system of extracting

700
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 3: capital comes with an ethical dilemma. So I kind of

701
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 3: start there, but then also talk about the reality that

702
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: we don't have a strong social safety net in this

703
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 3: country that allows you to age and stop working at

704
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 3: some point very easily if you don't have an investment account.

705
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 3: So the message in that chapter is investing is unethical

706
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 3: but maybe inevitable.

707
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: Do you think exploitation has to be part of it,

708
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: or is every business built around exploitation, or could you

709
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 1: reframe it and say that many businesses are built around service,

710
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: and they have a duty to serve their customers and

711
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: their competition with other people to serve those customers, and

712
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 1: that they know if they want to stay in business

713
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: and continue to stick around, they have to please the

714
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: people they're trying to reach. Like, do you think there's

715
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: an element of that too, or is exploitation kind of

716
00:36:59,000 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: the only.

717
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 3: Thing you see technically under capitalism, Like if you're getting

718
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 3: into sort of a philosophical place, exploitation is built in

719
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 3: because that's where profit comes from. If a company is

720
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 3: making profits, that money is not going to the people

721
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 3: who created the value necessarily. But that is a technical detail,

722
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 3: and I don't think you need to make financial decisions

723
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 3: based on that. I do talk in the book about

724
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 3: considering investing in local businesses or building your own business,

725
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 3: And there's a lot less of what we think of

726
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 3: as exploitation in the way that those businesses tend to

727
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,959
Speaker 3: run because the people who are running them are stakeholders

728
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 3: in their community. They have a much closer relationship with

729
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 3: the workers that are adding value to the business, They

730
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 3: have a much closer relationship with the consumers and the

731
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 3: community that's being affected by it, and so the decisions

732
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 3: that are being made there are going to be a

733
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: lot more ethical and you can get a lot closer

734
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 3: or to something that kind of makes sense. The problem

735
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 3: with the way that our systems are set up is

736
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 3: that it's pretty tough to make a retirement plan that's

737
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 3: just based around investing in those kinds of businesses because

738
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 3: you know, we have tax advantages.

739
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: All businesses aren't taking investors most of the time.

740
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, a lot of or building your own business

741
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 3: can be really tough and you end up putting a

742
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 3: lot of money into it and like I said, taking

743
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: on a lot of debt rather than just accumulating money

744
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 3: like you could in an investment account. And we also

745
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: have again regulation and legislation set up to steer people

746
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 3: toward retirement accounts and investment accounts.

747
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,439
Speaker 2: Well, I think we can agree though that the more

748
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: local you get, not to say that there isn't fraud

749
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 2: that takes place on a local level, but just waste, right,

750
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: Like the higher up you go and the more global

751
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: you know, like not just national but even global, but

752
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: something gets like there is a lot more room for

753
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 2: there to be practices that are tough to.

754
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: Tough to get behind. Regig just greater levels of bureaucracy

755
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: and overhead and a distance from the customers. Yeah as well.

756
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that's certainly a massive argument for

757
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: things more at a local level. But Dandy, you've shared

758
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 2: some critiques with the I don't know more of the

759
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 2: traditional approach to personal finances, but we'll get to some

760
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: of the different alternatives that you mentioned in your book

761
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: as well'll get to that more right after this.

762
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: All right, we're back. We're still talking with Dana or Randa.

763
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: Her new book is you Don't Need a Budget, and

764
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: that I think it, Matt, When you first read the

765
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 1: headline or where you first read the title of that book,

766
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 1: you cried, a single tier. A single tier went down

767
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: your face because you love budget so much. Me, I

768
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: was like, I kind of agree with her, but I

769
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: think I think it's situationally dependent at least. And data

770
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: one of the things you talk about in your book.

771
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: You say that the head, the heart, and health should

772
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: be motivating factors for how we make financial decisions. Do

773
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: you think that traditional personal finance advice minimizes those elemental

774
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 1: parts of who we are?

775
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 3: Very much? I do. Traditional financial advice I think focuses

776
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 3: very much on the head, which is your sort of

777
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 3: more financial goals, the numbers, the spreadsheets, the way that

778
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 3: you're thinking and making decisions. It's very much focused on

779
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 3: just that part and minimizes a lot of times heart

780
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 3: and health and heart is what I think of as

781
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 3: like your passions and your values and sort of the

782
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 3: core of who you are and your health is your

783
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 3: best interest living life in a way that supports your

784
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 3: physical and mental and social health. And we've sort of

785
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 3: moved in recent years, maybe in the last five or

786
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 3: ten years, to focusing a little more on financial wellness

787
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 3: and thinking about how our financial decisions have that impact

788
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 3: on the heart. We think about choosing work that we're

789
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 3: passionate about. We think about how we can use money

790
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 3: to support joy and peace and ease in our day

791
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 3: to day lives, and not just towards amassing the right

792
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 3: amount of wealth in the right amount of time or

793
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 3: something that's very head focused. But I still see that

794
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: we don't think much about our health, our physical and

795
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 3: mental health and well being in the way that we

796
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 3: teach personal finance. That kind of is still left out

797
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 3: of the conversation.

798
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 1: It's almost like someone needs to start a healthy, rich

799
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: substock or something like that.

800
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 3: Yes, Yeah, someone needs to get that conversation going.

801
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: Someone needs to jump on that ur L. That's the

802
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: name of Data's site. You know what.

803
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 2: Like, what keeps standing out to me, I guess is

804
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 2: the fact that a lot of what you're saying we

805
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: actually do agree with, as far as maybe the mechanics

806
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 2: right or in this case, the way you're framing it

807
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: here the head, like how the numbers work, this is

808
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: how interest works. This will you have more money or

809
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 2: less money at the end of the day if you're

810
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 2: doing X, y Z. But it's almost as if the

811
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 2: general mindset, like the overall attitude towards how you're thinking

812
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 2: about your relationship to money. It's like maybe that's what's changing.

813
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 2: Do you think that that's an accurate way to maybe

814
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 2: summarize some of the different approaches to personal finances out there?

815
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, all three of those things are important. I'm

816
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 3: not saying that we're currently focused on the head and

817
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 3: we need to move into you know, heart and health,

818
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: but that you have to consider all three of those

819
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: elements of financial wellness and rather than just focusing on

820
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 3: the advice that helps you achieve specific financial goals, so

821
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 3: it's important to see all of those layers in the

822
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 3: financial decisions that you're making and to understand what you

823
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 3: need to support all of those elements of your well being.

824
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,439
Speaker 1: Daniel, you've levied some critiques against the system, right, and

825
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: I think we're particularly talking about the American system of

826
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: economics capitalism in particular. I'm curious, though, when you look

827
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: at the numbers. We live in the most prosperous country

828
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: in the history of the world, and there is I

829
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: think a reason that people are lined up to immigrate

830
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: to the United States. Typically that's because they believe it's

831
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: the land of opportunity. They have more ability to move

832
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: up and down the income spectrum. Typically move up the

833
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: income spectrum from wherever they are coming from, they have

834
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: a chance at a better life. I even heard someone

835
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: the other day who's from Canada and they said the

836
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: best move I ever made was coming to the United States.

837
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: And I was like, Oh, that's really interesting because it's

838
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: not like Canada is not a prosperous country. You have

839
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: a lot of opportunity there as well. So I'm curious.

840
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: I guess when you see that and you see that

841
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who want to come here

842
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: and see this as the land of opportunity. What does

843
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: that say to you? I guess about the system and

844
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: how other people perceive it.

845
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 3: We have a really effective story in the United States

846
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 3: about the opportunities that people can have under capitalism, and

847
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 3: that continues to motivate people to essentially feed that that

848
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 3: system and do things like support tax cuts for the

849
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 3: wealthy or something because of promises that are made under

850
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 3: the system. But more and more, as we move through history,

851
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 3: more and more the decisions that we're making are making

852
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 3: that kind of mobility harder. And I don't have I

853
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 3: don't have the numbers behind this in my head, but

854
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 3: it is getting harder since you know, about the nineteen eighties,

855
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 3: as we really started changing the way that we regulate

856
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 3: financial products and companies and work. It's getting a lot

857
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 3: harder to have that kind of class mobility that we

858
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 3: lionize in the United States, and the gap between classes

859
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 3: of people is getting bigger and bigger, and so a

860
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 3: lot of that benefit that is part of the American

861
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 3: story is going to a very small percentage of people

862
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 3: in a really kind of profound way, and it's getting

863
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 3: a lot harder for the rest of us, like the

864
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 3: vast majority of us to really be able to tap

865
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 3: into that, and so we're kind of actually stuck without

866
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 3: a ton of mobility. We're sort of stuck in wherever

867
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 3: we whatever kind of class we were born into.

868
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 2: I think when you look at home, affordability, that's something

869
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 2: that probably I bet a lot of folks look to

870
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 2: as like, man, my parents and my grandparents, they all

871
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 2: have the ability to afford I guess at the time

872
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,399
Speaker 2: the housing boom, like they're all the ranges that were

873
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,439
Speaker 2: being built, so like everybody had the ability to buy

874
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: their own home. But still I can still not think

875
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 2: of a country I'd rather live than myself, even with

876
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,959
Speaker 2: the US and all of its flaws and all the

877
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 2: flaws that capitalism has, I mean, certainly not perfect, but man,

878
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 2: it's tough for me to look past like the innovation

879
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: that takes place here in the US, Like even like

880
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 2: healthcare as busted of a system we have, Like if

881
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 2: folks are looking for like the very best health care,

882
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:13,919
Speaker 2: like when it comes to you know, just think about

883
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 2: vain know the vaccines that we were able to roll

884
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: out and stend out to the rest of the world.

885
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: But even certain things like it makes me think of

886
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 2: like cancer research and treatments, like people come from all

887
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: over the world because of I certainly don't want to

888
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 2: make an argument for that. Our healthcare system.

889
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: Is it only costs twice as much as every other

890
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: developed country, and what could be wrong. It is not

891
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but we are

892
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: because of the way we're structured. We are incentivizing the

893
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: cures for a lot of these diseases and treatments for

894
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: a lot of these diseases that aren't getting made anywhere else.

895
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: And so in some ways, some of these other countries

896
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 1: are riding our coatails. And so there's that element too.

897
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 1: So I don't know what to do to fix a

898
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: busted system, but I feel like, Dana, you pointed out

899
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: some of the flaws incredibly well, and specifically some of

900
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: the flaws out of the ways that we think about

901
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: personal finance. Your perspective is an important one. So thank

902
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 1: you so much, Dana for joining us on the show today.

903
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: And where can our listeners find out more about you

904
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: and your new book?

905
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me, and I also really appreciate

906
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 3: you being willing to have the conversation and look at

907
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 3: that kind of counter countercultural perspective. So you can find

908
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 3: out all about the book at youdn'tneedabudget dot com and

909
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 3: you can follow me on substag or to subscribe through

910
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 3: email to healthy Rich at healthy rich dot co.

911
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 2: Heck, yeah, we'll make sure to link to all that

912
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 2: in our show notes as well. Dana, thank you so

913
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 2: much for speaking with us today.

914
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for having me all right, Matt, that was

915
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,439
Speaker 1: a really interesting conversation with Dana. Miranda and I think

916
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: she comes from a different perspective than you and I

917
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: typically do, but we wanted to hear from her, and

918
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: I learned a lot talking to her, and I really

919
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: loved kind of reading her book and hearing her approach.

920
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 1: I'm curious, what was your big takeaway from this conversation. Well, say,

921
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 1: I was encouraged.

922
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 2: I guess Towards the end of the conversation, I realized

923
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 2: that it seems like we've got more in common than

924
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: maybe the title of her book or the chapter headings

925
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 2: in her book might make you think. And when she

926
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: was talking about choosing what bills to pay, you can

927
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 2: have those clickable headlines, Matt and I totally understand that.

928
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 2: But when she was talking about certain bills being more

929
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: important than others. Like the root of what she was

930
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: talking about and what she said was that, like, you

931
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: have actively committed to taking on this financial obligation, this expense,

932
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 2: and you can actively uncommit to doing that too. And

933
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 2: so what is at the core of that is autonomy,

934
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,359
Speaker 2: an agency, and an ability for us as individuals to

935
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: choose how it is that we want to live our life,

936
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 2: as opposed to being like taking a more passive approach

937
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 2: or posture towards your our personal finances where we're counting

938
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 2: on the government to bail us out or to take

939
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 2: care of this, or for somebody else, or not even

940
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 2: the government, but even like some nonprofit where we're just

941
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 2: sitting on the sidelines waiting for them to come along.

942
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: And sometimes that's necessary, right, There is not a hard times.

943
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: There is a.

944
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 2: Place for organizations like that, for churches, for just some

945
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 2: of the systems that we've even set up through our government.

946
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: Like I'm not I'm not one to say to burn

947
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 2: it all down in that we need to be completely

948
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,439
Speaker 2: abolishing our garment. I'm not advocating for anarchy. Matt doesn't

949
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 2: want kids to school lunches. We need we need rules

950
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 2: for our government with the kids eat, I say, Matt.

951
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 1: To function, but I guess yeah.

952
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 2: I wanted to highlight the fact that I was encouraged

953
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,439
Speaker 2: that at the end of the day, we do have

954
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 2: power to direct our lives, not only by what we

955
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 2: choose to do, but what it is that we choose

956
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 2: to spend our money.

957
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: On and what we choose not to spend our money one. So,

958
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: I think my big takeaway was when we were talking

959
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: about debt and she was talking about nuanced in Shades

960
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:44,720
Speaker 1: of Gray in how we think about debt and which

961
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: debts we choose to pay off and win. And I

962
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of wisdom in that this is

963
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: something I think maybe she comes at it from a

964
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: slightly different slant than you and I do, but I

965
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: think she's spot on like you and I are.

966
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 3: Not.

967
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: Debt is bad. Payoff debt as quickly as possible, short

968
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 1: of people. Some debt can be good debt. Some debt

969
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 1: can actually fuel your financial journey at times. I think

970
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: if we be really really careful, because there are a

971
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: lot of nefarious forms of debt that can derail your

972
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 1: financial journey, they might get you something that you want

973
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: now that maybe you should have waited for and saved

974
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: up for. But there are other times where taking on

975
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 1: a measured amount of debt can help you make more progress.

976
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: So just maybe we need a more nuanced discussion about debt.

977
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 1: That's something we try to do here on the show. Yeah,

978
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:30,959
Speaker 1: and we always have Yeah when people ask us questions

979
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 1: about it. Well, yeah, don't take out a personal loan.

980
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: Personal loans suck. Credit card debt sucks. But then there

981
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: are other forms of debt that can be beneficial to

982
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 1: your ultimate ability to earn more, to buy a house

983
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: that you don't have, you know, cash to pay for

984
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: the full thing for, like a mortgage can make sense, right,

985
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 1: So just be thoughtful about debt, but maybe don't rule

986
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: debt out of your life altogether. Totally.

987
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is one of those instances where I feel

988
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 2: like we are in the extreme middle. We're kind of

989
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 2: like refereeing a fight between Dave Raims and Dana Miranda

990
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 2: when it comes to different things like this. But yeah,

991
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 2: in the end, certainly glad that we were able to

992
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 2: spend a minute and talk with Dana Miranda. Joel, Let's

993
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 2: get to the beer that you and I enjoyed during

994
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 2: this episode, which was a silent accord is what this

995
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 2: was by Six Bridges brewing out of John's Creek. And

996
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've ever had a beer by

997
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 2: these guys on the show is different Georgia or Atlanta

998
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 2: suburb And no, I don't think I ever had any

999
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: beer by these guys.

1000
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: But I picked this one up, saw it on the shelf,

1001
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 1: and I was like, that looks interesting. And this to me,

1002
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: I like the Matt label. Yeah, it makes me want

1003
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 1: to scratch up with my fingernail. This beer reminded me

1004
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 1: of a beer by another local brewery, Creature Comforts. They're

1005
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 1: Cocoa Bunny. Oh, because it's got the coconut and vanilla

1006
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,320
Speaker 1: thing going on in This is in a milk stout.

1007
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: They do a milk porter, but this is a milk porter. Yeah, Okay,

1008
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 1: this is good, but Coco Bunny's better think so. Yeah,

1009
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,240
Speaker 1: it's just got such good roasty like this.

1010
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 2: Is the kind of beer that you can enjoy in

1011
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 2: the afternoon, like after lunch, if you're wanting some of

1012
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: those coffee like flavors but you're afraid of like getting

1013
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 2: that ninety milligram hit of caffeine this close to your bedtime.

1014
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 2: That's what's going through my head at least when I'm like, yeah,

1015
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 2: I really shouldn't have any coffee this afternoon because it's

1016
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 2: gonna impact me instead, that's when you reach for a

1017
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 2: delicious stout like this.

1018
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: So I need to do more research on this. But

1019
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: I've read that coffee impacts people differently based on their genetics,

1020
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: and I'm pretty I'm pretty sure I'm one of those

1021
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: people who coffee doesn't have nearly as much of an

1022
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: impact on as others.

1023
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 2: Or maybe it's because you sleep so poorly all the time.

1024
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: That could be that, Like your body's just like extra

1025
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 2: hit of caffeine.

1026
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: That's nothing, all right, But we got a jet for now.

1027
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 1: That's gonna do it. For this episode. We'll put links

1028
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 1: to Dana's book into her substack in the show notes

1029
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: up on our website at howtomoney dot com. You know it.

1030
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 1: That's gonna be it, though, So until

1031
00:52:51,800 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 2: Next time, best Friends Out and best Friends Out